permalink for this thread : http://search.catflaporama.com/post/browse/895156
Machiavellian Posted on 03/01/2009 20:48
Respect To Israel

Troops on


Link: the move.

borobuddah Posted on 03/01/2009 20:54
Respect To Israel

I don't respect bullies.

Rodney_Trotter Posted on 03/01/2009 20:59
Respect To Israel

Yeah! Them damn Irish bombed us for years. Maybe we should have just bombed them from the air.

And FFS the jews have never been picked on by anyone have they!

guyb Posted on 03/01/2009 21:00
Respect To Israel

"as long as there are people on both sides that think they can win, and there are, then they will both lose" - Jeremy Bowen

Israel are trying to do as much damage before Obama arrives and has a word with them. Trouble is, its so counter-productive its unreal.

Machiavellian Posted on 03/01/2009 21:25
Respect To Israel

What do you expect them to do? Should they just say please Mr Hamas stop firing those nasty rockets at us, or should they wait until Hamas can target


Link: this before reacting?

littlejimmy Posted on 03/01/2009 21:47
Respect To Israel

There are ways to take on terrorists that don't involve taking out so many civilians at the same time. Such an approach in Northern Ireland would never have seen the troubles come to something like a peaceful end. They might be desperate to act swiftly, but they are just hardening Hamas's resolve and giving them more recruits...and Hamas know this and love it.

Tommy_Trinder Posted on 03/01/2009 22:25
Respect To Israel

Looney left and Arabs are now rioting in london!

If they want to riot let them fek off to Israel!

W****rs

juninhosdivingheader Posted on 04/01/2009 00:44
Respect To Israel

Israel and Bush are as crazy as any of the headcase Islamist nations. War mongers and very dangerous to world peace.

bblf Posted on 04/01/2009 00:47
Respect To Israel

Tony benn and Red Ken are both spouting on TV at the moment. I agree that it should stop if there is a way to stop it, but where were they both when missiles were falling on Israel before they reacted. Neither of them were walking the streets saying it was wrong then.

Rodney_Trotter Posted on 04/01/2009 01:19
Respect To Israel

I`d give all the protesters free flights to Tel Aviv and free passage to Gaza.

This is what I hate about the left. Complaining from afar!

Go on Galloway! Get yourself there!

Eddie_Catflap Posted on 04/01/2009 02:11
Respect To Israel

FFS. Kids are being blown to bits.


Eddie_Catflap Posted on 04/01/2009 02:11
Respect To Israel

FFS. Kids are being blown to bits.


Machiavellian Posted on 04/01/2009 02:24
Respect To Israel

Agree, it's terrible that kids are being killed, but unlike Hamas, who indiscrimately bomb, Israel are not targeting children.

A states first objective is to protect its citizens and Israel is doing just that. If Britain was facing a concerted boming campaign of the same nature that the jews face, I would expect/demand the same reponse from our government.


I also find the minimal condemnation of Israel from Egypt very telling.

redcar_racer Posted on 04/01/2009 02:30
Respect To Israel

The Jews have been round for a lot longer than both Christians and muslims, they have to live somewhere and that is Israel, and they have every right to defend it.

Hamas are nothing more than cowards and terrorists, and if the muslims of this country don't like it, then they need to fcuk off over there and fight for what they believe in.

If your neighbour repeated threw stones at your windows you would eventually go a kick his head in.

br14 Posted on 04/01/2009 02:39
Respect To Israel

What if I was living in his house though?

Eddie_Catflap Posted on 04/01/2009 02:51
Respect To Israel

Or blockading his garden? What if his kids were starving and needed medicine, and I wouldn't let him out?

Look. I think both sides are in the wrong. I just feel sorry for the poor F***s caught in the middle of it.

Machiavellian Posted on 04/01/2009 02:55
Respect To Israel

There is also a border with Egypt for a way out but like you say i also feel sorry for anyone in the middle of it.

redcar_racer Posted on 04/01/2009 02:59
Respect To Israel

Agree, not nice, war never is and people get hurt and people die die...

What were Israel supposed to do.
Stop firing rockets into our country Hamas!
Please stop firing rockets into our country!
Look, Hamas, pretty please stop firing rockets into our country, we know you know who these people are.
We will get angry if you don't stop
Right, we are now angry, and we are officially not talking to you because you can't stop your own people firing on us
We mean it


Then eventually you have to act, and they have.

Eddie_Catflap Posted on 04/01/2009 03:04
Respect To Israel

I don't think the Egyptians let them through as a rule, certainly closed now - I'm sure the palestinians blew holes in the border fences last year so that people could cross. A lot of smuggling though no doubt.


Machiavellian Posted on 04/01/2009 03:21
Respect To Israel

Yes, lots of tunnels and also the sea is a way out. But it's interesting if what you say is correct that egypt will not let their 'brothers in' when under attack.

br14 Posted on 04/01/2009 07:29
Respect To Israel

redcar_racer it's a whole lot more complex than Israelis getting angry at the odd rockets.

Occasional rockets have been sent over from Palestine for several years, sent primarily by rogue elements within Palestine. (At least before the most recent Israeli reprisals). Up until now Israel has made moderate reprisals for those attacks.

So why is it now that the Israelis escalate their response? Wouldn't it make sense to wait until the new US administration assumes power and see if they can help?

There again what is Obamas full name? Barak Hussein Obama. His natural father happens to have been a Muslim before becoming an atheist in later life.

Is it possible Obama may just be a little more sympathetic to the Palestinian position, or at least not as ready to support Israel.

Just speculating but if you're the Israeli government, facing a change in the US political direction, and maybe a reduction in foreign aid from the US (given their difficult financial situation), just maybe you'd trigger a fight to gain a foothold in Gaza prior to any change in US foreign policy.

redcar_racer Posted on 04/01/2009 07:41
Respect To Israel

br14 - Agree, the confilct has been going longer than I can remember.

Not so sure the US will change it plans wholesale when Obama gets in, whatever his middle name.

Think they have just had enough of being bombed. Don't see what there is in Gazza for them, they moved out a while ago, built their wall etc.

Don't think a solution will be found either, I mean, when was the peace deal signed with Egypt, without googling I remember late 70's perhaps, and Sadat was shot for it.

Not much noise coming fromthe Saudi's either...

Was just watching BBC world at lunch there, and everything will be ok later today as Gordon Brown will be giving us his look on the situation.

br14 Posted on 04/01/2009 08:03
Respect To Israel

[:D]

It's completely insoluble at least at the moment.

However Israel was formed (not a moment of glory for international politics though I reckon us Brits come out looking better than most), the Israelis settled in the homes they took, and are unlikely to be easily moved.

On the other hand, Hamas wants a single state of Palestine and the "right of return" for the millions of folks living in refugee camps for either 60 or 40 years depending upon when they were dispossessed.

They could create a single state of Israel and find some way of accomodating the Palestinians within it. But the Israelis dont want that because it would dilute the exising Jewish power base and create the possibility of a democratically elected government made up primarily of Palestinians. Hamas dont want that because they would really like an Islamic state (without having to worry about annoying elections?).

A two state solution is proposed, but Hamas doesnt want that because they represent the majority of those dispossessed and it means they would lack legitimacy. Israel occasionally agrees to this approach, but for reasons that are not clear to me anyway, they generally hold back from being really serious about the change.

In the end the status quo has appeared to suit both Hamas and Israel. Israel got to live in relative peace with the odd rocket attack. Hamas got to consolidate its position of power with the Palestinian people and allowed rogue elements to fire the rockets just to remind everyone there was an issue.

Given where we are now I think in the end the Palestinians will get what they want. The balance of power in the world is shifting to India and China who may see assisting the Palestinians as a way of strengthening their power base. Add to that the possibility Obama may not be quite as supportive in the UN (the US vetoes any and all UN resolutions that are remotely negative toward Israel).

I'd guess that this is what is really motivating Israel.

joshie Posted on 04/01/2009 09:04
Respect To Israel

'Occasional rockets'

How many constitutes occasional? Hundreds, more like thousands have been fired at Israeli civilian areas.

'Israel got to live in relative peace with the odd rocket attack.'

Im not so sure the civilians living under daily constant threat of rocket attack would consider this relative peace.


DavidShayler Posted on 04/01/2009 09:25
Respect To Israel

60 years of occupation , dispossession and apartheid suffered by native Palestinians is the real issue. If you think the issue goes back only a few months or years to Hamas and rockets then your blind and naieve.Israel is a Zionist terrorist state, funded and armed by American imperialists who are complicit in genocide, torture, false imprisonment and flagrant disregard for the united nations and the international community. Britain is a partner to genocide - our government has granted arms export guarantee liscences to companies like EMO in Brighton and the engineering consortium based in Lenton, Nottingham, to ship components for weapons of mass destruction to Israel.These are being used right now to bomb Gaza, murder women children and civilians. Lies from bush and the Zionist murderers about "security" and "protection" are propaganda.A few injured invaders counts for nothing against 60 years of murder, occupation and genocide against native Palestinians by Israel and the United states.

Consider the situation in Northern Ireland using the same strategy or England today. Its not about Hamas or throwing stones; its about Israel being the nuclear launchpad for American military and political dominance of the Middle East, Africa and the Eastern gateway.

We must exercise our rights to protestin whatever ways we can to defend the rights of the Palestinians against the Zionist terrorists. Ive read enough uninformed rubbish and bile on here, I just have to say my piece.

For a perspective from the 1.5 million victims of the Israeli Holocaust , google:

The International Middle East Media Center (IMEMC).

www.therealnewsnetwork.com

The Palestinian News Network.

Aljazeera.

Indymedia uk.

Free Palestine.End the murder and occupation by the U.S backed Israelis.


Guisborough_Town_Red Posted on 04/01/2009 09:48
Respect To Israel

The BBC coverage of this conflict is an absolute disgrace, and even if it probably won't change anything, I have already e-mailed them to complain. As a licence payer, I expect an equal and fair coverage of whats going on, I DON'T expect the BBC to suddenly become the voice of the Palestinian movement!! Don't let them fool you.

Whatever the rights and wrongs of this conflict, and what's gone on in the past, there is no doubt that Israel has as much right to exist as a Palestinian state does. Hamas are an illegal and murderous terrorist organisation. (Although the BBC makes them sound like a group of decent lads, to their shame). Hamas want to destroy an entire nation, and they are even willing to allow fellow Palestinains to die in order to further their cause. This is why they deliberately hide and operate among the civilians in Gaza, because they know that Israel is bound to accidently kill Gazan civilians, when in fact Hamas terrorists are the target.

Israel has no choice but to go into Gaza to attack Hamas, as they are trying and defend themselves from constant and endless rocket attacks which makes the lives of half a million Israelies a constant misery. No nation on earth is going to put up with that, and quite rightly too. Israel included.

JonMc Posted on 04/01/2009 10:00
Respect To Israel

The ceasefire was originally brokered in June and abided by by both sides. Yes, rockets were launched from Gaza into Israel but not even then Israeli government has the brass neck to suggest they came from Hamas. Hamas pressured the group that were doing it to stop and they abided. From then on it should've been an uneventful couple of months until the ceasefire ran out but in November Israel broke it by killing 6 Hamas officials. Come the end of the ceasefire Hamas refuse to renew as Israel didn't hold up it's side of the bargain, such as lifting the blockade, border closures and the general murder of Palestinians.

I think it's quite clear why Hamas didn't want to renew the ceasefire, do you?


skol.smb

attonBORO Posted on 04/01/2009 10:18
Respect To Israel

They should give the land back that they stole and then they might find peace. There is no other way. They have to find a compromise and instigate the creation of the Free Palistinian State.

The Palistinian people are the friendliest and most hospitable i have ever met in my many years of travel around the Middle East, including the West Bank.

DavidShayler Posted on 04/01/2009 10:32
Respect To Israel

The BBC is the propaganda mouthpiece for the Israeli murderers. On 5 live, radio 4 and all their news broadcast the bias is self - evident. Sensorship, by ommission, is how they portray the view that there are "two sides" - a deliberate lie! Any country occupying a sovereign state, building a wall round a concentration camp akin to the Warsaw ghetto and comitting genocide deserves to be face the full force of resistance and sanctions from the rest of the world.Israel is using the slur of "anti - semitism" for its critics, to justify murder - the fact is, the Zionists are fundamentalist terrorists whose actions are worst than Hitlers.Ask the jews who attended the anti - war demo in London yesterday why they were protesting. It wasnt against Israel, it was against "Zionism". Jewry and Zionism are not the same. Freedom for the Jews and Palestinians against the tyranny of Zionism!

Guisborough_Town_Red Posted on 04/01/2009 10:36
Respect To Israel

"They should give the land back that they stole"

Absolute rubbish. Since the Jewish religion has been around in that area literally since biblical times (the last time I looked at the bible, it was a Jewish Temple and not a Muslim one which Jesus walked into), I think it is quite hard to say who stole who's land. How far back do you go? The fact is, there is NOW an attempt to get a Palestinian state alongside an Israeli one, which even moderate Muslim nations (like Egypt) are supporting.
Hamas are not only opposed to this, but are trying to destory an entire nation. This cannot go on, and this is why some Muslim nations in the region have been noticably quiet whilst Israel have attacked, becaus they know Hamas are basically scum trying to destroy any chance of a peaceful Palestine and Israeli state living side by side.

DavidShayler Posted on 04/01/2009 10:43
Respect To Israel

Hamas have NEVER said they want to "wipe out" an entire nation, nor did the Iranian President, before you bring that lie into the equasion.Hamas were democratically elected by the Palestinians.This is not a religious question; its a strategic military and economic one.Israel,bankrolled by the yanks and supported by the likes of Britain are the bullhead of illegal occupation and genocide against the Arab world. They are equipped to murder millions with nuclear and chemical weapons, far beyond Palestine. The Zionists are aggressors and theyre supporters are war criminals.

redcar_racer Posted on 04/01/2009 10:53
Respect To Israel

Palestine never has been an officially recognised country, it is an area of within several countries, parts of Jordan, Syria and the Lebanon.

The Jewish nation goes back to the beginning of the old testament, so it's what 3000 plus year old, they have lived in that area since time began. Christ himself was a Jew!
King David was king in Jerusalam and Solomon before him, so I would say they have a fairly solid claim to want to live where they do.

Everyone has to live somewhere, and remember the muslim religion is a lot younger than that of a Jew.

The British carved up the area as it is now, including Israel, Iraq, Kuwait and various other states we see today.

This isn't an answer, merely a bit of history. A lot more cleverer peeples than what I is have tried and failed to sort this issue out.

To me they are defending themsleves, that is my opinion, but as we know, opinions are like arseholes, and everyone has one.

joshie Posted on 04/01/2009 10:53
Respect To Israel

David, can I ask what your 'final' solution is to the Palestinian/Israel problem?

attonBORO Posted on 04/01/2009 10:56
Respect To Israel

Both Jewish and Palestinian peoples lived together in the land called Palestine for over 1000 years. Yes, it was originally the home of the Jews, but as time went on it became an ungoverned area, with mixed race/religion. Neither could claim it as their land.

After years of increasing friction during the past 100 yaears between both factions and increased by the jewish genocide in WWII, the Jews pushed for an official homeland and with help of the British Govt, created the State of Isreal in 1948. The Palestinian people were evicted in the main from homes and communities that they had lived in for centuries and basically pushed out to the less fertile lands of the West Bank. Isreal took advantage of the 1967 war to push the Palestinians out further into Jordan.

Are we saying that the Vikings should re-claim land in UK that they held in AD 700 where they had sacred sites etc?

Ethnic cleansing is occuring all over the world, but in Israel / West Bank no-one is attempting to stop this happening. It has gone too far now, but the World (if it cared and it dosent) should seek the creation of a Palestinian State, (properly) aided by the UN to prevent any friction until the peoples are settled finally.

DavidShayler Posted on 04/01/2009 11:31
Respect To Israel

Millions made refugees in their own country,ghettoising whole ares with a three - storey high concrete wall (like the Warsaw Ghetto in Nazi occupied Poland), stamping numbers on the arms of Palestinians as they go through the prison wall to their lands (like the Nazis did in Buchenwald,Treblinka,etc), murdering the sick and dieing by deliberatley starving 1.5 million human beings of food and basic medical supplies, tens of thousands murdered by an illegal foreign army, genocide against innocent people and mass murder not seen since the second world war is not "a bit of history". It is a war - crime. The perpertrators and their backers are criminals and should be tried , like the Nazis were at Nurmberg.

borobadge Posted on 04/01/2009 11:37
Respect ......

Free Palestine.

DavidShayler Posted on 04/01/2009 11:39
Respect ......

Ditto.

Guisborough_Town_Red Posted on 04/01/2009 11:40
Respect ......

Peace for Israel.

Sitrep Posted on 04/01/2009 11:58
Respect ......

Agree, it's terrible that kids are being killed, but unlike Hamas, who indiscrimately bomb, Israel are not targeting children.



Not 1 Israeli has been killed by missiles in the last 6 months

redcar_racer Posted on 04/01/2009 12:09
Respect ......

As I said David, opinions are like arseholes, and you are entitled to yours, as am I.

I think the Jews have every right to live where they are, as they have done for 3000 odd years, and to defend themselves. If they had been left alone and not provoked this wouldn't be happening.

If war crimes have been commited, then bring those responsible to justice just like they have in the recent past at The Haig. This goes for both sides of course, including those that hide amongst civilians.

bigrichardthe3rd Posted on 04/01/2009 12:12
Respect ......

the jews have been persicuted through out time,pallistine is the home of the jewish people from the year dot,give it back and let them live in peace,,the hollyest place on earth should not be war torn,,,

chorleyphil Posted on 04/01/2009 12:23
Respect ......

Shayler, you ill-informed F***wit.

The wall is to stop Palastinian millitants from getting to Israeli cities to suicide bomb schools, synagogues, pubs and night clubs.

60 years of refugee camps? Do me a favour. They choose to live in squalor because they are hopeless and helpless. Arabs dominate cities such as Nazareth and Beersheba. Get along ok with Jewish neighbours.

Its time Hamas was taught a lesson, this is it. Israel can no longer wait until Iran feeds them weapons for bigger targets

jam69 Posted on 04/01/2009 12:30
Respect ......

i think one israeli has being killed in these attacks at the same time many hundreds of arabs have died,seems a bit one sided to me

attonBORO Posted on 04/01/2009 12:33
Respect To Israel

Recar-racer - what would you do if got an army togther and came round to your house and kicked you out? Would you just say "oh, ok, your distant-distant ancestors used to live in these parts centuries ago, so just take it and i'll go and live somewhere else"

Of course not, you would fight for it, by any means possible, especially if there was no police or army on your side.

chorleyphil Posted on 04/01/2009 12:36
Respect To Israel

Trouble is mate, nobody kicked anybody out.

theboy999 Posted on 04/01/2009 12:37
Respect To Israel

"Both Jewish and Palestinian peoples lived together in the land called Palestine for over 1000 years. Yes, it was originally the home of the Jews, but as time went on it became an ungoverned area, with mixed race/religion. Neither could claim it as their land."

Where did you get that from? The Palistians where Jews. After the 2nd failed Jewish uprising agaianst the Romans about 100 years after Christ's birth, they where exiled from Jerusalum not to return till 1948. From the 7th century onwards the jews where systematically exiled from Palistine by the Muslims and to a lesser extent Christians, who both fought over the so called holy land.

"the Jews pushed for an official homeland and with help of the British Govt"

You could hardly say we helped them. British forces where actually fighting Jewish terroists and trying to stem the unstoppable tide of Jewish immigration when they handed ove control to the UN.

"The Palestinian people were evicted in the main from homes"

In the MAIN Palistianians where quite happy to sell their land to the Jews for a big fat profit. In the minority some Palistinains where forced from thier land.

"Are we saying that the Vikings should re-claim land in UK that they held in AD 700 where they had sacred sites etc?"

The Vikings never left. They settled here and blended into the community.

"seek the creation of a Palestinian State, (properly) aided by the UN to prevent any friction until the peoples are settled finally."

I agree with that, the problem is the UN need troops on the ground and no one would be prepared to do that. It would probably fall on the UK and US to provide the troops as usual. France likes to bang on about how wrong Isreal is but it won't put its troops where its mouth is.

A strong econonmically viable Palistine is exacly what Isreal needs.

Oooo Posted on 04/01/2009 12:37
Respect ......

It has been very interesting reading this thread and seeing the opposite extreme positions taken up by different people. In its way it reflects the problems in the area very well. A solution will only come when both sides can forgive (or at least put to one side) past grievencies and more level headed people can be heard. I fear we are a long way from that though.!

redcar_racer Posted on 04/01/2009 12:40
Respect To Israel

They have always lived there

Always - for more than 3000 years, just it became officially recognised, got given borders, in 1948

So what is the argument? That Israel is defending a land they have lived in for more than 3000 years?

zaphod Posted on 04/01/2009 12:42
Respect ......

A plague on both their houses. Both sides only want peace on their mutually unacceptable terms.

Israel caused this latest bout by continuing to blockade Gaza during the ceasefire, which made Hamas wonder what was the value of the ceasefire to them. So the ceasefire expired.

That said, the Palestinians have most to lose by allowing the present situation to drag on. The Israelis will gradually occupy more & more land in the West Bank and the Palestinians will become even more impoverished and marginalised. Israel can put up with the current level of violence & will not be defeated militarily given US financial & military support. Israel can pose as the "reasonable guys" because they can rely on the Palestinian leadership to be intransigent. The Palestinians should be busting a gut to reach a settlement before the situation gets even worse, but they don't seem to realise their position is weakening as the years go by. Some Hamas guy said victory is closer than it seems. What an idiot!

chorleyphil Posted on 04/01/2009 12:46
Respect To Israel

1967 Boy999 not 1948

but the rest is spot on and well put

OPEO Posted on 04/01/2009 12:50
Respect To Israel

All this condemnation of Isreal makes my P*** boil. How long have Hammas being lobbing rockets into Isreal without hardly a murmur? but now they get their comeuppance and all hell breaks loose. Poor muslims.

chorleyphil Posted on 04/01/2009 12:53
Respect To Israel

anybody here been to Israel?

zaphod Posted on 04/01/2009 12:59
Respect To Israel

theboy, the Jews were not exiled from Palestine after the Bar Kochba revolt in about 133AD. They were banned from entering Jerusalem, except for one day a year. Constantine lifted that ban about 200 years later.

Even at the time of Christ, only about 1 million out of 6 to 7 million Jews lived in traditional Jewish lands. As many (maybe more) lived in Egypt. The Jews weren't driven out of Palestine, but they became a smaller & smaller percentage of the population and by the 19th Century, they were only about 10%.

rivals_oldschool Posted on 04/01/2009 12:59
Respect ......

"Isreal took advantage of the 1967 war".

So they should. Nearly every single Arab nation surrounding Israel had persecuted thousands of Jews from Arab lands in the prevailing years (whom fled to Israel) and then grouped mass military forces making no secret about their aim to wipe Israel off the map.

They hardly have cause for complaining about the outcome of a war they started. Don't beat about the bush, Israel were fighting for they're very lives in 1967.

attonBORO Posted on 04/01/2009 13:02
Respect To Israel

i have been to Israel 7 times, including West Bank once

bigrichardthe3rd Posted on 04/01/2009 13:03
Respect ......

they always give us 10 piont in the eurovision song contest,,,

attonBORO Posted on 04/01/2009 13:12
Respect To Israel

like a Rabbi once said to me, "We are the chosen race....!!" Maybe thats why most people pander to the Jews? I belive that all people should be equal, not have a crazy self-belief akin to that of the Nazi's

theboy999 Posted on 04/01/2009 13:38
Respect To Israel

Zaphod thats what i said, they where banished from Jeruselum. It wasn't till the Muslims came on the seen some 500 years later that they where exiled from the rest of Palistine.

Sitrep Posted on 04/01/2009 13:43
Respect To Israel

Not 1 Israeli has been killed by missiles in the last 6 months

chorleyphil Posted on 04/01/2009 13:57
Respect To Israel

LINK ???

Scrote Posted on 04/01/2009 14:13
Respect To Israel

Guisborough_Town_Red -

The BBC coverage of this conflict is an absolute disgrace, and even if it probably won't change anything, I have already e-mailed them to complain. As a licence payer, I expect an equal and fair coverage of whats going on, I DON'T expect the BBC to suddenly become the voice of the French Resistance movement!! Don't let them fool you.

Whatever the rights and wrongs of this conflict, and what's gone on in the past, there is no doubt that a Greater Nazi Germany has as much right to exist as a Free French state does. The French Resistance are an illegal and murderous terrorist organisation. (Although the BBC makes them sound like a group of decent lads, to their shame). The French Resistance want to destroy an entire nation, and they are even willing to allow fellow French people to die in order to further their cause. This is why they deliberately hide and operate among the civilians in France, because they know that the Nazis are bound to accidently kill French civilians, when in fact French Resistance terrorists are the target.

Germany has no choice but to go into France to attack the French Resistance, as they are trying and defend themselves from constant and endless rocket attacks which makes the lives of half a million Germans a constant misery. No nation on earth is going to put up with that, and quite rightly too. Germany included.

-- doesn't all work due to specifics but can you see the point? --

israel broke the peace agreement; israel are butchering civilians; israel should be condemned for the CURRENT problem

the longer term situation is complex but israel have done little to find a peaceful solution

the closest they got resulted in israeli fanatics assassinating their own president

joshie Posted on 04/01/2009 14:30
Respect To Israel

'israel broke the peace agreement'

Rockets have been fired from palestinian areas during the cease fire, I would suggest it is they who paid nothing but lip service to the ceasefire from day one.

Your analogy is riddled with inconsistency and is not a valid comparison, as an important example, the French did not make 'constant and endless rocket attacks' or in fact attack Germany in any way.

onthemap Posted on 04/01/2009 14:51
Respect To Israel

Justice would be served if the Iranians or Syrians invaded Israel from the opposite side.

The Israeli position is utterly sickening.....and, incidentally, Bush's blaming of Hamas is utterly reprehensible.

chorleyphil Posted on 04/01/2009 14:58
Respect To Israel

How would that be justice OTM?

Infact, Syria hasnt got the balls to attack Israel as it knows it would get its arse kicked.

Might get some argy bargy from that other cowardly rabble in Lebanon.

Rauko Posted on 04/01/2009 15:03
Respect To Israel

Part of the ceasefire Joshie was that Israel was supposed to open up checkpoints and allow food / medical supplies in - they didn't .. so then certain rogue elements within Gaza started to throw rockets again.

What this thread proves is that nobody knows the full picture - even the bit I typed in the 1st paragraph is probably bollox. Palastinian supports say one thing - Israeli supporters say something else. People who aren't directly involved don't have a clue whats going on as its all propaganda and counter propaganda (see the 911 In Plane site thread for another example).

If nothing else it just goes to show how much trouble believing one religion over another causes as that is at the very root cause of it when you pull away all the they-did-this-we-did-that crap ..




TheSmogMonster Posted on 04/01/2009 15:16
Respect To Israel

I think the fact that Israel has done its best to set siege to Gaza (not letting goods in - killing the economy - not letting people out to find work) seems to get overlooked.

Its a amazingly complex conflict with no easy way out, just plenty of innocent civilians being targeted by both sides.

Its about time that Israel reacted like a democracy in this.


chorleyphil Posted on 04/01/2009 15:20
Respect To Israel

Anyone know why the BBC has not got a correspondant in Gaza City?

TheSmogMonster Posted on 04/01/2009 15:22
Respect To Israel

Because Israel won't let them in Phil.

chorleyphil Posted on 04/01/2009 15:40
Respect To Israel

For their own safety, as the last poor B****** got kidnapped and held for yonks

logacaram Posted on 04/01/2009 15:48
Respect To Israel

Phil because Israel doesnt let any foreign correspondent in

sixtyniner69 Posted on 04/01/2009 15:57
Respect To Israel

similar respect as i have for serbia over bosnia.

whether that is positive or Dis-respect is held by me as personal

but it is the same

RealNice Posted on 04/01/2009 16:28
Respect To Israel

After trawling through this debate the only conclusion I can reach is that there isn't an ounce of logic in anything David Shayler has had to say. In other words, he talks a load of s**t.

bigrichardthe3rd Posted on 04/01/2009 16:29
Respect To Israel

will the jewish people ever be free of their biggest sin,,letting barrabas go free,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

joshie Posted on 04/01/2009 16:47
Respect To Israel

I agree with what you are saying Rauko, religion is yet again the root cause of masive suffering.

Guisborough_Town_Red Posted on 04/01/2009 16:54
Respect To Israel

Would be nice to have some of these posters on here told they're going to be living in Sderot for a few months. Then perhaps after living under the threat of Hamas rockets which are falling randomly in roads, schools, hospitals, homes, offices, fields, EVERY SINGLE DAY FOR MONTHS AND MONTHS ON END they'll see why Israel have done what they have this week.

Bernie_was_right Posted on 04/01/2009 16:58
Respect To Israel

"Maybe thats why most people pander to the Jews? "

That has to be a joke surely? The Jews must be the most persecuted & vilified people on earth.

They`ve had 600 rockets fired at them in the past seven days alone, so they move in to put a stop to it - and all the usual members of the great unwashed come out screaming (Benn, Galloway....Annie Lennox FFS!!!!)

I think Isreal are 100% right to do what they are doing, and the biased media coverage against them is a disgrace.

Sitrep Posted on 04/01/2009 17:05
Respect To Israel

Not 1 Israeli has been killed by missiles in the last 6 months

theboy999 Posted on 04/01/2009 17:17
Respect To Israel

"Not 1 Israeli has been killed by missiles in the last 6 months"

That makes it ok then??!!

Are Hamas making precision attacks purposely avoiding innocent civilians or are they lobbing missiles over the border indiscriminately in the hope of killing a few Jews? I think we all know the answer to that.

Guisborough_Town_Red Posted on 04/01/2009 17:17
Respect To Israel

Not 1 Israeli has been killed by missiles in the last 6 months

Ohh, so you think there should be perhaps ten Israelis killed before their government decides enough is enough?! No?? Ok, is 50 alright?? What a daft post.

TheSmogMonster Posted on 04/01/2009 17:24
Respect To Israel

Why do people seem unaware that Israel broke the ceasefire, on the night of the US elections wasn't it?

theboy999 Posted on 04/01/2009 17:56
Respect To Israel

Hamas never intended to keep to the ceasefire. History tells us and no dout mosad had iformation that Hamas used the break in hostilitys to re-arm. Isreal don't wait till an enemy is armed and killing its people before striking, they pre-emp. They have to, its how they've survived. Isreal is a war like country surrounded on all sides by enemy's, some of which publically state thier wish to destroy it. The others only admitting this in private. While Isreal exists there will always be people wanting its destruction and Isreal will defend itself aggressively. Personally i'll be suprised if they last another 60 years but who knows.

Scrote Posted on 04/01/2009 19:48
Respect To Israel

"The others only admitting this in private." - LMFAO

joshie - you are confusing utter bolx with the truth - but do carry on it's highly entertaining

at least it would be if civilians weren't being murdered as we speak...

The_same_as_before Posted on 04/01/2009 19:52
Respect To Israel

In the same circumstances I would expect our government to do the same.

joshie Posted on 04/01/2009 19:55
Respect To Israel

Please explain?

TheSmogMonster Posted on 04/01/2009 20:03
Respect To Israel

"Hamas never intended to keep to the ceasefire."

Neither side did.

"History tells us and no dout mosad had iformation that Hamas used the break in hostilitys to re-arm."

As did Israel.. don't you think they are remarkably prepared? Attacking from Land sea and air so that their is no escape from the violence?

"Isreal don't wait till an enemy is armed and killing its people before striking, they pre-emp. They have to, its how they've survived."

So its ok to break a ceasefire as long as your israel? I suppose its also ok not to lift the blockade on Aid that was part of the agreement as long as your Israel.

Did Hammas have the right to prepare for a ground invasion by attacking targets in Israel? Of course they didn't.

It was a ceasefire, not a chance for Israel to take out anything they saw as a threat without retribution, and they completely under-minded any chance of getting Hammas (who were looking for the excuse) back to the negotiating table by breaking it.


The_same_as_before Posted on 04/01/2009 20:08
Respect To Israel

If a foreign government was attacking the civilians of our country I would expect our government to attempt to stop them.

Simple really.

I am convinced of this due to Tony Benn, George Galloway and some old bird singer all in disagreemnet with me.

TheSmogMonster Posted on 04/01/2009 20:13
Respect To Israel

Simple really...

If you think its simple you need to give it more thought.

Guisborough_Town_Red Posted on 04/01/2009 20:20
Respect To Israel

The situation is clearly not THAT simple, but to be honest The_same_as_before is right. Israel has every right under UN law to protect it's citizens from an illegal terrorist organisation hell bent on killing Israeli people.

Rauko Posted on 04/01/2009 20:39
Respect To Israel

I'm neither a supporter of Israel or Hamas - they're both as bad as each other if you ask me .. but

Guisborough - I'm all for countries having the right to defend itself under UN Law .. but we can't have our cake and eat it .. if Israel wants to act under UN Law and / or resolutions then they should also abide by UN Law and / or resolutions and not just ignore what doesn't suit them.


Guisborough_Town_Red Posted on 04/01/2009 20:52
Respect To Israel

Rauko - But Israel HAS been abiding by UN Law recently!
For example, they left Gaza 3 years ago and they have been forcing their OWN Jewish people out of Israeli settlements in the past years, knowing that under UN law it is to be given to the Palestinians as part fo a peace deal.
Israel WANTS peace.
Not only that, but so do moderate Muslim nations in the area such as Egypt and Jordan, both of whom can see that Hamas is actually part of the problem to creating a Palestinian state, and NOT the solution. (This explains why these Arab countries have NOT been so critical of the recent Israeli action, whereas before they would have gone mental).

zzzzz Posted on 04/01/2009 21:39
Respect To Israel

Not as simple as that GTR.
Its a different situation to the average Gaza resident.

Yes Israel has been appearing to be abiding by the terms of the recent ceasefire generally but when it comes down to the day to day existence of the Gaza Palestinians its different,

The borders are still closed. People can't go to work. The power gets cut. The water gets cut.

The Israelis have been very clever in that Hamas have been pushed into a corner into escalating the situation by cancelling the ceasefire because the Gaza population are sick of their current hopeless existence.

theboy999 Posted on 04/01/2009 23:21
Respect To Israel

"Did Hammas have the right to prepare for a ground invasion by attacking targets in Israel? Of course they didn't."

Come on smog, your not seriously telling me that you believe that hamas' indiscriminate rocket attacks on Isreali border towns where a pre-emptive measure agaianst an invasion it knew was coming but neglected to tell the rest of the world??

Look at history. Isreal have survived through making pre-emptives. If it wasn't for the pre-emptive air attack on the Egyptian air force in the six day war they might not exist now.

chorleyphil Posted on 04/01/2009 23:37
Respect To Israel

That last post by GTR is spot on!

Israel has not cancelled the ceasefire, Hamas did.
Regretably, innocent people are dying, but the ultimate aim I now think, is that Israel will overthrow Hamass and then hand power to a moderate and more forward thinking Abbas.

Then a Palastinian state has a chance of working.

DavidShayler Posted on 04/01/2009 23:39
Respect To Israel

Israel is a Zionist terrorist stae, bankrolledby the americans, supported by the British, who supply export - guarantee liscences to arms manufacturers, whose weaponry is being used right now to murder innocent Palestinians. This goes back 60 years, has nothing to do with Hamas. Israel is a military nuclear war pad for the americans in the arab world and beyond. Zionism and Jewry are two seperate things. The americans and the zionists are war criminals who should be captured, tried and hung. It is Israel that is the aggressor and occupier. It is Bush, Blair and Brown who are the killers. They should suffer, not the Palestinians!

Free! Free! Palestine!

DavidShayler Posted on 04/01/2009 23:39
Respect To Israel

Israel is a Zionist terrorist stae, bankrolledby the americans, supported by the British, who supply export - guarantee liscences to arms manufacturers, whose weaponry is being used right now to murder innocent Palestinians. This goes back 60 years, has nothing to do with Hamas. Israel is a military nuclear war pad for the americans in the arab world and beyond. Zionism and Jewry are two seperate things. The americans and the zionists are war criminals who should be captured, tried and hung. It is Israel that is the aggressor and occupier. It is Bush, Blair and Brown who are the killers. They should suffer, not the Palestinians!

Free! Free! Palestine!

Manfriday Posted on 05/01/2009 00:22
Respect To Israel

Bernie was right.... The jews must be the most persecuted & vilified people on earth...... Your confusing them with scousers surely? :)

chorleyphil Posted on 05/01/2009 00:23
Respect To Israel

Good god lad, you truly are a moron!

and WTF is Jewry?

Grumpy_Paul Posted on 05/01/2009 00:56
Respect To Israel

Hamas are not the Palestinian people but an extension of Iranian influence close to Israel. Sadly the ordinary Palestinians are piggy in the middle as is so often the case.
Ask yourselves what you would expect our government to do if someone was lobbing 40 rockets a day on to Teesside.

WTF are the Israelis supposed to do? just sit back and take it?

chorleyphil Posted on 05/01/2009 01:01
Respect To Israel

and Hamas leader is in??.......oh yes thats right, Syria!

br14 Posted on 05/01/2009 01:25
Respect To Israel

The state of Israel was born out of a complex UN sponsored deal in the late 1940's.

The UN Partion Plan for Palestine intended a significantly smaller amount of land than Israel eventually grabbed. And much of that land was taken without purchase or the agreement of the Arab occupants.

It was always the intention of Ben Gurion to start with the partition and then build an army to take the rest of Palestine when the time was right.

Israel is a secular state that bases its right to exist and the territorial boundaries of its nation on the text of the Hebrew Tanakh.

The paradox is that many of the original Zionists (a term with strong religious connections) were atheists.

The original agreement came into force largely because of pressure by the US. The Brits argued against any solution that was not equitable, but were in so much debt to Jewish bankers (see Balfour Declaration) and the US that we had to go along with it.

The US knew full well that in supporting the state of Israel they were effectively disenfranchising a large proportion of the Arab population, many of who ended up in refugee camps in Gaza in 1948, and who remain there still. Then again, at the time the US didnt need Arab oil.

Interestingly when the two states resulting from the partition came into being, the US recognised Israel but refused to recognise the resulting Arab state.

The whole thing was an American sponsored mess aided and abetted by an indebted (due to two world wars) Britain.

br14 Posted on 05/01/2009 01:30
Respect To Israel

GP Hamas are the more militant Palestinians who have lived in refugee camps near Gaza for 60 years and who want the right to return to their homes.

Ask yourself what you would do if someone kicked you out of your home and forced you to live in a tent in Sunderland.

To paraphrase: WTF are Hamas to do? just sit back and take it?

There's two sides to every story. I do not sympathise with Hamas methods. And I wouldnt want to be an Israeli living in southern Israel.

However, I do not think the timing of the current Israeli action is an accident. Given that it only started once Obama was selected as President of the US.

I think this is timed to create more Israeli control over the Gaza strip as a prelude to any foreign policy changes introduced by Obama.


Soylent_Green Posted on 05/01/2009 01:35
Respect To Israel

Im a both as bad as eachother sort of person but if a solution can be found in Northern Ireland, then why not Israel? However, how can a board be capable of this standard of debate but then on football topics its a F***ing mess.

mr_maz Posted on 05/01/2009 01:41
Respect To Israel

Israel never have to worry about what the UN say as America veto's any action against them.

Israel are the only major armed country that has not allowed a UN inspection of their nuclear and defence weapons. No action has been taken against them as the USA veto any action.

also if Hamas is targeting south isreal with rockets why havent Israel targeted these first? theyve been going on for a long time but instead of dealing with immediate thread they go after the rest of the strip first.

if Israel wanted go stop the idiots from Hamas firing their basic rockets it could be done.

Israel are the spoilt rich kids acting like bullies because they know they are proteced.

Hamas are a bunch of idiots who are too stupid to stop using violence.

jews, arabs, christians all lived in jerusalam without war for so long, and then a few power hungry people destroyed it

br14 Posted on 05/01/2009 01:44
Respect To Israel

Soylent_Green "how can a board be capable of this standard of debate but then on football topics its a F***ing mess"

Because on more important topics we get emotional. [;)]

chorleyphil Posted on 05/01/2009 01:50
Respect To Israel

'jews, arabs, christians all lived in jerusalam without war for so long'


I beg to differ my friend.

Scrote Posted on 05/01/2009 02:18
Respect To Israel

GTR - if hamas is an illegal organisation hellbent on killing jews, how come you don't mind the isrealis killing palestineans who have no connection with hamas?

do you think that the uk should have bombed ireland in the 70s/80s/90s??

chorleyphil - israel and palestine were reasonably stable in the early to mid 90s - it took the assassination of the isreali president (by a fantatical isreali) to begin the descent into the current madness via the two? intifadas

the isreali hawks haven't let up since and the current crisis was caused by isreali agression (hit squads on hamas leaders) before any serious rocket attacks by hamas or its 'renegade element'

chorleyphil Posted on 05/01/2009 02:40
Respect To Israel

When war comes to Jerusalem next, it will involve the whole planet.

Scrote Posted on 05/01/2009 02:46
Respect To Israel

eh????

shouldn't we be trying to prevent that then by stopping the aggressors from causing even more bad feeling

ffs hamas and the PLO and any other F***wit arab group are bad enough but they pale in comparison to the current isreali tosspots

war for the sake of war - pure arsebanditry

chorleyphil Posted on 05/01/2009 02:51
Respect To Israel

Fookin calm down pal, I'm not praying for that!! Just stating that it would probably be the last act of war.

And I think your P***ed

br14 Posted on 05/01/2009 04:25
Respect To Israel

"It breaks my heart to see Israel's stupidity" - Rabbi Michael Lerner

Talks a lot of sense.


Link: Rabbi Michael Lerner

theboy999 Posted on 05/01/2009 09:31
Respect To Israel

"jews, arabs, christians all lived in jerusalam without war for so long, and then a few power hungry people destroyed it"

Thats one of the most ignornant statements in the whole thread. Jerusalum is the most contested piece of real estate in the world.

BR your wrong about US support for Isreal. It wasn't till the Yom Kippor war of 1973 that the US really got behind Isreal militarilly, in the aftermath of an Egyptian refusal to accept a cease-fire and a Soviet military airlift to the Arabs. The US sold no weaponry to Isreal till 1962. Pevious to that it had joined the weapons embargo on Isreal while throughout the 50's its sold weaponry to numerous Arab states.

But people will believe what they want to believe.


Guisborough_Town_Red Posted on 05/01/2009 09:59
Respect To Israel

Soylent_Green - Well said. It's nice to have a proper debate on here without it (as yet) going downhill into childish abuse and insults, just because you don't happen to agree with what's been said.

chorleyphil - Thanks for backing me up! :-)

zzzzz - The reason why the Israeli / Gaza borders are closed and people can't get to work is because Israel is ensuring they protect themselves from suicide bombers. Of couse this fustrates the ordinary non-violent Palestines, but the Israeli border guards has a duty to proctect their citizens FIRST and foremost.

br14 - Since there has never been at any time in history an official Palestine state, and both Muslims and Jews have had a claim to this part of the world for absolute years, I think its simplistic to say 'Israel kicked Palestines out of their homes'. You could argue then, that Palestines kicked the Jews out first, since there had been Jewish Temples around in that area since Biblical days. You see? As for the Rabbi, well of course there will be Jewish poeople not really in favour of the current action, you'll be able to find just as many Muslims speaking out against Hamas. The entire Fatha (sp?) party in thr West Bank, for starters.

Scrote - You must know that the Isrealis are not deliberately killing Palestineans who have no connection with Hamas. They are targetting Hamas directly, but Hamas deliberately choose to operate among civilians, knowing that innocent lives help their cause. Hamas ALLEGEDLY even has its military bunkers under mosques and hospitals FFS!! How can Israel avoid innocent deaths when Hamas treats it's own people as propaganda tools???

Roofus Posted on 05/01/2009 10:03
Respect To Israel

Oh well, 500 dead and 3000 wounded, its worth bombing Gaza then isnt it? Lets do it to Bradford just in case eh? Ever been to Palestine? Youve a lot to learn.

Dibzzz Posted on 05/01/2009 10:06
Respect To Israel

I couldn't give a fcuk about it really, just leave them to it and don't get involved.

tranny_terry Posted on 05/01/2009 10:07
Respect To Israel

Neither have you, nealg.

whoyadoin3 Posted on 05/01/2009 11:26
Respect To Israel

Project Blue Beam will be getting warmed up.

Scrote Posted on 05/01/2009 13:33
Respect To Israel

GTR - if you fire a missile at a house that you know (or have a reasonable idea) contains women and children then you are deliberately targeting civilians

or does the fact that most of the hamas rockets don't hit anyone mean that they are deliberately NOT targeting isrealis and those that have been hit have actually just been unfortunate??

you can't have it both ways

unless, as indicated above, you are okay with occupying forces killing civilians as a by-product of eliminating resistance whether it's isreal in gaza, germany in france or the good old usa in vietnam (and i'm fairly sure there are plenty of examples involving the uk too)

the difference is they have all been rightly condemned and UN rules have been put in place to try to stop it happening - the isrealis couldn't give a rats arse about the UN and that is why they are being hounded by any right minded person

it's not about taking sides - i have no great love for hamas but they are a democratically elected body and isreal need to work something out politically - the fact that they continually break cease-fire conditions proves that they are not in the least bit interested in doing so

wee_daft_boris Posted on 05/01/2009 17:50
Respect To Israel

This is a great debate, I particularly like the points people make about Israel needing somewhere to live and having a historical right to the land. The Americans and other "Western" nations also appear to buy into this despite a less than consistent approach to other races and countries with similar problems, ie. numerous states in Africa, the Aborigines in Australia, Tibet and lets not forget the Native Americans in America funnily enough, who have suffered numerous years of genocide and abuse. These type of issues would be a lot easier to stomach if all was fair. But as is the case things rarely are. Do the UN or the Geneva Convention stipulate any regulations with regards to "rules of engagement" as surely these are being broken. If this was acceptable then the likes of ETA and the IRA wouldn't have lasted five minutes let alone decades.

Sitrep Posted on 05/01/2009 17:55
Respect To Israel

Not 1 Israeli has been killed by missiles in the last 6 months

theboy999 Posted on 05/01/2009 18:01
Respect To Israel

is the an echo in here

in-gibbo-we-trust Posted on 05/01/2009 18:04
Respect To Israel

The Israeli's people should be ashamed of what there are allowing to happen. I Don't think what Hamas are doing is OK either but I under stand why there are doing it.

onthemap Posted on 05/01/2009 18:16
Respect To Israel

With oil in the $40s Iran has got to be pushing Hamas.The article below makes sense.


"For some time now, the regime in Tehran has shown signs of urgency, sometimes verging on panic. Of late, the mullahs have organized raucus demonstrations in front of numerous embassies, including those of Egypt (with chants of “Death to Mubarak”), Jordan, Turkey, Great Britain, Germany and today (imagine!) France. These demonstrations were not mere gestures; the regime’s seriousness was underlined on Sunday, the 4th, when it offered a million-dollar reward to anyone who killed Mubarak (the Iranians called it a “revolutionary execution”). Significantly, the announcement came at a rally of the Basij, the most radical security force in the country, at which the Revolutionary Guards official Forooz Rejaii spoke. The Egyptians take it seriously; they have been on alert of late, looking for the possibility of a Mumbai-type operation in Cairo or elsewhere.

At the same time, the regime intensified its murderous assault against its own people, most notably hanging nine people on Christmas Eve, and assaulting the headquarters of Nobel Prize Winner Shirin Ebadi.

This intense tempo of activity bespeaks alarm in Tehran, which is fully justified by a number of setbacks. First of all, the dramatic drop in oil prices is devastating to the mullahs, who had planned to be able to fund terrorist proxies throughout the Middle East, Europe and the Americas. Suddenly their bottom line is tinged with red, and this carries over onto their domestic balance sheets, which were already demonstrably shaky (they were forced to cancel proposed new taxes when the merchant class staged nation-wide protests). No wonder they seize on any international event to call for petroleum export reductions. Just today they called for a drastic reduction of oil shipments to all countries that supported the Israeli military incursion into Gaza.




Link: Why attack now?

Guisborough_Town_Red Posted on 05/01/2009 21:04
Respect To Israel

From Sky News: "Israeli military officials say they have captured 80 Hamas fighters as the two sides wage intense battles on the streets of Gaza City... The Islamic Jihad movement said several of its members were killed in the fighting."

Fantastic news if true! A big well done to Israel and the IDF.
(Although perhaps not for those of you in favour of monthly rocket attacks on civilians, and/or suicide bomings using brainwashed kids and even the mentally ill).

Sitrep Posted on 05/01/2009 21:22
Respect To Israel

Not 1 Israeli has been killed by missiles in the last 6 months

Guisborough_Town_Red Posted on 05/01/2009 21:42
Respect To Israel

Not 1 Israeli has been killed by missiles in the last 6 months, and hopefully with Hamas destroyed for good, none will either. :-)

elnino1 Posted on 05/01/2009 22:04
Respect To Israel

Sitrep, you're either ignorant or stupid. Read up on it. At least 4 Israeli citizens have been killed in the last 6 months by rockets.

TheSmogMonster Posted on 05/01/2009 22:04
Respect To Israel

I notice you don't bother to mention the number of innocent Palestinian Children that have died in the last 10 days GTR... does that not warrant a smiley face?

I hate seeing people take glee out of carnage.

Sitrep Posted on 05/01/2009 23:10
Respect To Israel

Prior to the Israelis breaking the ceasefire, Not 1 Israeli had been killed by missiles in the previous 6 months,

Scrote Posted on 05/01/2009 23:29
Respect To Israel

GTR - seriously fella, you need to have a word with yourself

nobody on here is offering any support to hamas or suicide bombers or even to the rocket firing idiots/terrorists

however to be happy to see 100s of civilians dead and probably 1000s affected is just shameful

when the dust settles do you think israel will be any safer than it was last week? last month? last year?

you can't secure peace through violence - it just doesn't work

theboy999 Posted on 06/01/2009 00:03
Respect To Israel

Sitrep if i knife 60 people and not one them die, does that make it ok?

theboy999 Posted on 06/01/2009 00:18
Respect To Israel

Scrote the sad fact is that violence does work. Look back at history all major powers/empire's have been won through violence. Take Isreal, it only exists through the means of violence. Without its violent birth and violent defence it would not exist. Take Britain, we live our comfortable, relativaly rich life because of the Empire, won through violence. The US came out of the biggest violent event in the history of man (WW II) smelling of roses. People bang on about how violence achieves nothing, the sad fact is, it does.

br14 Posted on 06/01/2009 00:19
Respect To Israel

theboy999 - read your history.

The British government never really wanted a two state solution. The US used the lever of war debt to force the deal through.

Truman recognised Israel within minutes of them declaring an independent state. He never recognised the equivalent Palestinian state.

In the end the British pulled out because of international pressure from the US and Zionists.

Look I dont really care about Hamas or Israel. One thing is certain, Israeli troups killing and maiming Palestinian children, and their pictures being presented all over the world is not going to help the Israeli cause.

All those of you that support Israel I suggest you read Rabbi Lerners article linked above (Rabbis are Jewish for those that dont realise).

I used to be pro-Israel, now I realise they're just a bunch of blood thirsty B******s who dont want peace but are simply making a move for power before Obama takes office.

nealg Posted on 06/01/2009 00:24
Respect To Israel

br14 - i concur entirely.No bullS*** - theres no justification for genocide against an entire population. The USA are the terrorists and are guilty of genocide. The arms manufacturers and the politicians, TONY BLAIR and BROWN included, should be tried and executed for crimes worst than HITLER!

theboy999 Posted on 06/01/2009 00:38
Respect To Israel

Br, i no big fan of Isreal i just think people should get their facts right. Yes the US recognised Isreal within hours of the declaration but that was only in line with the balfor agreement which the US had agreed to years before. Like i said the US also signed up to the weapons embargo on Isreal and supplied millions of dollars worth of weaponary to Arab states in 50's and 60's, an irony in itself considering their later support for Isreal. In the early days the Jews where on their own. Ask any military historian and they will tell you that it was superior training, but in the main superior motivation and moral of the individual soilder that won the day for the Jews.

theboy999 Posted on 06/01/2009 00:43
Respect To Israel

"TONY BLAIR and BROWN included, should be tried and executed for crimes worst than HITLER"

Get a grip Neal. Do you know anything about history. At best that statement is an insult to the Jews, the 25 million Russians and everyone else who died at the hand of Hitler, at worst its Facist propaganda.

tranny_terry Posted on 06/01/2009 00:56
Respect To Israel

nealg, go back to sucking c0ck or being extra retarded as Roofus, you clueless berk.

Scrote Posted on 06/01/2009 02:07
Respect To Israel

theboy999 - building empires through violence and securing peace are two different things though

as far as it goes i'd imagine the usa could be considered a reasonably peaceful place in political terms but i'd imagine there are still plenty of indians holding a grudge

as for the rest - where are all the empires now?

and no war has ever ended without one side surrendering unless a political solution has been found alongside the fighting - the isrealis are not interested in politics with hamas so there is no fookin' hope

br14 Posted on 06/01/2009 02:32
Respect To Israel

"the balfour agreement"

The agreement was signed by the British and only implied the British would help establish a nation.

It was signed so that Jewish bankers would support the war effort during the first world war.

The British intention was for a single state solution that would be equitable to both Jews and Arabs. Unfortunately the US made sure that never happened.

chorleyphil Posted on 06/01/2009 02:52
Respect To Israel

'the isrealis are not interested in politics with hamas so there is no fookin' hope'

I think Scrote, that your statement is back to front.

Look, nobody wants to see civilians killed. However, in any war, thats exactly what happens. For Israel to sit back and let Hamas gain a more sophisticated means of targeting Israel cities and installations, and thats what this is all about, would be too grave.
The populus of Gaza voted in Hamas what, 4 year ago, based on a pledge that they would fight and resist Israel to the end.

Ye reap what you sow!

Scrote Posted on 06/01/2009 04:15
Respect To Israel

it's only back to front if you're willing to turn a blind eye to the reason's behind hamas's election victory and the continuing support they get

and considering that the isrealis are the dominant power, it is up to them to start looking for a peaceful solution

did you tell ANC to stop fighting apartheid?

did you expect the IRA to unconditionally surrender?

do you think ETA or the tamil tigers or any other resistance group will just throw down their arms and walk away?

justice and fairness seems go out the window as soon as the arabs are involved - and i'm talking about the everyday civilian kind here - not the bloody idiots orchestrating things from their end

i'm pretty sure hamas (or what's left of them) are chomping at the bit waiting to get back into gaza - and the isrealis aren't daft enough to remain there for any extended period so what happens then?

few more rockets go over and maybe dent a paving stone - worth another 100 palestineans, you reckon??

br14 Posted on 06/01/2009 05:04
Respect To Israel

Come on Scrote be fair.

Surely you realise that for every Israeli killed there must be at least 100 Palestinians killed. Preferably women and children.

Otherwise how would they ethically cleanse Palestine as David Ben Gurion first intended.

Truth is the fundamental cause of the problem is probably the Israeli proportional representation system.

Anyone that thinks PR is a good idea should check out how consecutive Israeli governments are unable to negotiate for peace because they only stay in power with the help of the extreme right wing religious parties.

Casualty figures

550 Palestinians have been killed in Operation Cast Lead

100 of the dead are children

2,500 Palestinians have been wounded

4 Israeli civilians have been killed since the operation began, and four Israeli soldiers. Seventy-seven soldiers have been injured

Source: Gaza medical services, Israel Defence Forces

theboy999 Posted on 06/01/2009 10:27
Respect To Israel

I don't see the significance in comparing casulalty figures. Would you find it more morally acceptable if everytime an Isreali was killed by a Hamas rocket one Palistinian was picked at random and executed? Then they'd be no need for these large scale operations. An eye for an eye.