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qatarwatty Posted on 18/11/2008 11:28
Who belives in God

Who believes in God, whether it any God that people worship do you believe that there is divine intervention in everything we do, is there a better place to go when we die, are you a better person for this belief. If you do fair play to you, each to there own.

Me I'm a non believer, I believe we & other people control our own actions in the things we do & say.

Dibzzz Posted on 18/11/2008 11:30
Who belives in God

Jesus, well you'd fcuking hope so.

Muttley Posted on 18/11/2008 11:34
Who belives in God

Atheism seems to be the only belief system with active evangelists round here.

phillthyboots Posted on 18/11/2008 11:40
Who belives in God

I am a non believer and I do not believe in The tooth fairy or Santa Claus,who are basically in the same genre ie be good and be rewarded.Kept the masses in line for centuries but now we have the police and CCTV to keep us on the straight and narrow.
End of the sermon from the mount.

MarlonD Posted on 18/11/2008 11:41
Who belives in God

Can someone prove to me that a God exists ?

bear66 Posted on 18/11/2008 11:43
Who belives in God

Can you prove you exist?

north_east_invader Posted on 18/11/2008 11:43
Who belives in God

God loves atheists


Link: Its True :)

MarlonD Posted on 18/11/2008 11:43
Who belives in God

Exactly.

Can anyone prove that a God doesn't exist ?


mm40 Posted on 18/11/2008 11:45
Who belives in God

I believe in God and my life has been better for it.

bear66 Posted on 18/11/2008 11:45
Who belives in God

Can you prove you don't exist?

The_same_as_before Posted on 18/11/2008 11:47
Who belives in God

Me, One holy and apostolic church

Nero Posted on 18/11/2008 11:47
Who belives in God

I believe that I don't need to believe in God.

Armitage_Shanks Posted on 18/11/2008 11:49
Who belives in God

god is every religions interpretation of how the sun was worshipped thousands of years ago.

They just needed a story for every one to believe there was one

MarlonD Posted on 18/11/2008 11:51
Who belives in God

What is annoying is that people get called if they say they believe in a God but no-one can prove there is or isn't

number9 Posted on 18/11/2008 11:52
Who belives in God

Wakes up, pretends to be interested, goes back to sleep.

Bad day for fishing

Dibzzz Posted on 18/11/2008 11:55
Who belives in God

Which God are we on about here, that Christian one who sits on a big throne on a cloud with all angels flying around or that Muslim one who shags pigs and hates everyone?

The_same_as_before Posted on 18/11/2008 11:57
Who belives in God

10, 9, 8 ...

scooby Posted on 18/11/2008 11:58
Who belives in God

Marlon, go and have a look on wiki for the "Celestial Teapot".

Basically, you think of something absurd and then demand people prove it doesn't exist otherwise their view that it is not real is absurd.

Rod100 Posted on 18/11/2008 11:58
Who belives in God

can't see how anyone can in this day age can. however it keeps grown men off the streets and stops them fiddling with kids.....

oh hang on - its almost a prerequisite in catholicism.

king_hellfire Posted on 18/11/2008 11:59
Who belives in God

'Which God are we on about here...'








Link: Take your pick, Dibzzz

north_east_invader Posted on 18/11/2008 12:00
Who belives in God

Notice the graphs which map the inverse relationship between the growth in global warming and the decline of pirates on the high seas. You can't deny these figures :)


Link: All Hail his noodly appendage

MarlonD Posted on 18/11/2008 12:01
Who belives in God

I know what you're saying scooby but the amount of people that say that he doesn't exist but have no theory to prove otherwise.

It's like the thread regarding the Big Bang the other week, there are so many unanswered questions and open ended answers that no-one can categorically be 100% sure about a God either way.

Dibzzz Posted on 18/11/2008 12:01
Who belives in God

......Or are we on about that big fat bald one with man breasts?

nobbienuts Posted on 18/11/2008 12:02
Who belives in God

"Marlon, go and have a look on wiki for the "Celestial Teapot"."

Err does anyone acctually believe anything on wiki is correct?

I'd put more faith in the exisitance of god than in wiki to be righthonest.

scooby Posted on 18/11/2008 12:04
Who belives in God

Yes, everything on wiki must be wrong. Why exactly?

MarlonD Posted on 18/11/2008 12:05
Who belives in God

Only mm40 has the balls to state his beliefs on this thread the reat have followed the sheep and mocked the very thought of a God.

Sort of proves my point in a way.


scooby Posted on 18/11/2008 12:06
Who belives in God

I don't have a set of beliefs. I can't state them.

MarlonD Posted on 18/11/2008 12:08
Who belives in God

fair enough scooby. So you don't believe either way then ?

nobbienuts Posted on 18/11/2008 12:09
Who belives in God

Does Number9 have to state hs beliefs, I thougth we all new he is a JW, so reckon he is a believer then.

As for wiki, it was a poor attempt at humor.

sheriff_john_bunnell Posted on 18/11/2008 12:11
Who belives in God

has anyone noticed how cold and wet this summer was?
Coincidence that there has recently been an upsurge in Pirating around Yemen and Somalia? Only this week the buggers kidnapped a massive oil tanker.
I've stopped recycling and am saving up for a parrot

Muttley Posted on 18/11/2008 12:12
Who belives in God

Why would anyone state their beliefs on here? This is just another thread where Atheists get to feel all superior about having worked it all out.

Richard Dawkins will be along any minute and they can all slap each other on the back and point at the silly believers.

north_east_invader Posted on 18/11/2008 12:14
Who belives in God

Sure Marlon, okay, my aim was to do nothing other than make a couple of light hearted comments. However if you want colours nailing to the mast, my personal belief is that there is no God. Can I say categorically there is none, no, of course I can't, but I would be swayed by the scientific evidence, I like what Dawkins says - "there is almost certainly no God".

I do however respect anyones rights to believe otherwise - its personal choice, and as long as they don't try to push their beliefs onto me, thats the only time I would get annoyed. Much as I would expect them to be annoyed if I tried to push my beliefs onto them.

Outside that I am a strong believer in the separation of church and state (and education). I believe that religion has caused more pain and suffering in the world than anything else historically. I believe that in some hands it is very dangerous (see Jesus camp on you tube, see any kind of indoctrination/brain washing).

Oh this could go on and on, nobody is ever going to know until they die, or he suddenly sticks his head out of the clouds chanting "You are my Boro". Cos, if he exists, he supports the Boro ;-)

Muttley Posted on 18/11/2008 12:15
Who belives in God

Points ^^^^^^^ [:D]

MarlonD Posted on 18/11/2008 12:19
Who belives in God

"I do however respect anyones rights to believe otherwise - its personal choice, and as long as they don't try to push their beliefs onto me, thats the only time I would get annoyed. Much as I would expect them to be annoyed if I tried to push my beliefs onto them."

My point exactly, but as Muttley said the Dawkinists will be along soon.

number9 Posted on 18/11/2008 12:19
Who belives in God

Meeeeeeeeeeeeee

scooby Posted on 18/11/2008 12:25
Who belives in God

I don't believe in God but do atheists push their views onto others? Perhaps it's a reaction.

I don't remember being forced to sing atheist songs at school. I've never seen church of atheism collecting so they can spread the non-word about. I've never heard of atheists going on a mission to Africa to convert believers to atheists. Never heard of a terrorist acting in the name of "no God". Never opened a hotel room drawer to find a book all about not believing in God.

So let's just drop this idea that atheists are forcing their views onto believers FFS. You've been doing it for centuries and you've killed countless people while doing it.

Genghis_Khan Posted on 18/11/2008 12:26
Who belives in God

I couldn't care less if people believe in God, good for them, many people are better people because of their faith.

Nobody however can give a logical argument to say he/she exsists, clearly he/she doesn't. I don't need to prove that it goes in the face of everything we know.

Muttley Posted on 18/11/2008 12:28
Who belives in God

Scooby, perhaps you could give me the link to the last religious post on here NOT started by an Atheist?

bororeddaz Posted on 18/11/2008 12:29
Who belives in God

Good points Scooby.
I have no problem with people giving their time and money to religious groups but please leave me alone.

ABCD Posted on 18/11/2008 12:30
Who belives in God

Man this old chesnut again, does dawkins own this boared or something?

Yes

or mabey

no

MarlonD Posted on 18/11/2008 12:32
Who belives in God

Whoaa, easy Scooby, I'm not pushing my beliefs/views on anyone as I'm not sure either way tbh. Calm down.

As for you Genghis, if God landed on earth tomorrow you'd try & buy him out.

Jerry_Brown Posted on 18/11/2008 12:35
Who belives in God

I'm with sheriff_john_bunnell, the only sensible post on here.

scooby Posted on 18/11/2008 12:35
Who belives in God

"Scooby, perhaps you could give me the link to the last religious post on here NOT started by an Atheist?"

What the fook am I? Google?

I'm on about the real world, the one in which people have been killed for not believing in your version of events that you cannot prove either.

I've never had an atheist come to my door to try to convince me to not believe in anything. I've never had an atheist condemn one of my friends to hell because of the way he was born.

scooby Posted on 18/11/2008 12:38
Who belives in God

Marlon, it wasn't aimed at you. Was aimed at people moaning about atheists having a go.

Genghis_Khan Posted on 18/11/2008 12:39
Who belives in God

I may knock on Scooby's door and preach antitheism to him.

MarlonD Posted on 18/11/2008 12:40
Who belives in God

You seem angry scooby, maybe you need to find your inner self.

And remember, Jesus loves you Brian.

CheshireBoro Posted on 18/11/2008 12:40
Who belives in God

I believe in God.

And while I am at it, I believe in God, because (in my opinion) even though nobody can prove or disprove the existance or otherwise of God, there is nothing "scientific" about the beginings of the universe, creation or anything similar.

Gasses colliding together or not, those gasses didnt manufacture themselves. Nor did they just appear.

At some point, somewhere in the vwery distant past, something has to have been created, by someone or something. And in my opinion, that was God.

UgoAfro Posted on 18/11/2008 12:40
Who belives in God

My daughter's at nursery and although neither me or my wife are religous Britain is still in the main a Christian country. At this time of year when they're starting to practice they're nativity play it's very hard to explain to a 4 year old who this Jesus is with out mentioning God and heaven etc. (especially when you don't really believe this stuff yourself).

bororeddaz Posted on 18/11/2008 12:41
Who belives in God

Marlon was introduced to God by Father O'Brien (as well as oral sex)

Muttley Posted on 18/11/2008 12:42
Who belives in God

It doesn't happen does it? No religious posting ever on this board. Not one. No muslim call to prayer, no catholic beseeching forgiveness, no huindu extolling the virtues of divvali nor yet a scientologist proposing measuring auras. But hardly a month goes by without the same tedious backslapping from Atheists, "we're so much more scientific than yow."

If it is not an attempt to convert what is the point?

UgoAfro Posted on 18/11/2008 12:43
Who belives in God

And how was God created (or by who)? It goes on and on. I agree it's hard to explain everything using science.

Dibzzz Posted on 18/11/2008 12:43
Who belives in God

CheshireBoro

Which one?

scooby Posted on 18/11/2008 12:48
Who belives in God

Muttley, are you seriously comparing a few posts on here where everyone has their equal say with the REAL WORLD examples of religion actively going out into the world and trying to recruit new members?

You know, the real world where religions are exempt from having to apply the sexual equality laws the rest of us have to adhere to? That sort of thing?

You've had it this way for centuries with your right to peddle your views to those who want them and those who don't. Now that people can feel free to reject religious views without fear of being murdered by loving christians, you just can't handle it.

made-in-uk Posted on 18/11/2008 12:49
Who belives in God

Id like to believe in something after death. Dont belive the bible, or any other religion as no one has any proof and no one ever will, why people live their lives beleiving something that is a blatent myth i will never understand. The only people that know for sure are dead and they cant tell us.

I feel a "FAO derekAcorah" coming on.

mm40 Posted on 18/11/2008 12:52
Who belives in God

Marlon thanks for the comment, the problem is some people but not all will pass negative remarks to anyone who has faith if it conflicts with their beliefs. I do not push my faith and beliefs on anyone, if they ask for my opinion about my faith then I have been invited to pass a comment otherwise its left alone. I say each to their own and let it be.

Muttley Posted on 18/11/2008 12:59
Who belives in God

Scooby "You've had it this way for centuries with your right to peddle your views to those who want them and those who don't. Now that people can feel free to reject religious views without fear of being murdered by loving christians, you just can't handle it."

You have no idea what my beliefs are, I have never stated them.

Religions like all human collective endeavours have good and bad points and good and bad proponents. My problem with Atheism particularly on this board is it's evangelising whilst sneering at other belief systems. You also seem not to understand the irony of your aggressive posting whilst bemoaning the activities of world religions.

In short, get over yourself.

Dibzzz Posted on 18/11/2008 12:59
Who belives in God

mm40, I don't mean to be rude, but what if you are wrong?

fatsuma Posted on 18/11/2008 12:59
Who belives in God

qatarwatty - in answer to your original questions:

Do I believe in God? Yes.

Do I believe in divine intervention in everything we do? No.

Is there a better place to go when we die? I believe there could be.

Am I better person for my belief? No, not really a better person, whatever that means. Most of the people I admire most, who I and others would sat were 'better' people than I am, do not share the my beliefs. I've C****ed-up loads of things, but I would hope that most of the time my faith and my lifestyle are consistent.

And echoing your final point, as a believer, I believe that I & other people control our own actions in the things we do and say. That's actually very consistent with what the Bible says. For example, have a read of the book of James,in the New Testament and spot the gaps beween what the Bible teaches and what we tend to think it does.

If more believers, and I include myself in this, actually lived lives that were true to our faith, and consistent with Jesus teaching and the Bible, there would be fewer criticisms of our faith and the organisations / bodies that see themselves as ministers of that faith.

king_hellfire Posted on 18/11/2008 12:59
Who belives in God

'At some point, somewhere in the vwery distant past, something has to have been created, by someone or something. And in my opinion, that was God.'


Why don't you apply that logic to God as well Cheshireboro?


What is it that makes you believe that God has always existed, yet the Universe hasn't?


scooby Posted on 18/11/2008 13:03
Who belives in God

Muttley, you brilliantly avoided my points by sitting on the fence. Well done.

I'll repeat it one more time (once only): you simply cannot compare a few threads on here on this chat site with the very active and aggressive efforts of religions to control and convert people in the real world. Feel free to ignore that if you want but it won't go away.

littlejimmy Posted on 18/11/2008 13:04
Who belives in God

I've just been reading a book called Ishmeal by Daniel Quinn. Very interesting.

Adam should never have listened to Eve and eaten from the Tree of Knowledge, thinking he could could do things better than God did them, and got himself kicked out of the Garden of Eden, condemning himself to a life of hard labour tilling the fields. Is it a coincidence that the story of Genesis has been timed at around 8,000 years ago...when man first invented agriculture? It's not a positive story at all, is it? It's called THE FALL OF MAN, and then Cain (the crop grower) murdered his brother (the herder), setting the tone for the rest of civilised history.

Jon77 Posted on 18/11/2008 13:06
Who belives in God

I prefer to have a bet each way / hedge my bets.

I am not about to say god doesnt exist, death is still the great unknown, we all have to do it one day.

Therefore I am willing say that God does exisit as a long shot bet, whats lost, whats the point of saying he doesnt exisit just incase, you never know.

north_east_invader Posted on 18/11/2008 13:10
Who belives in God

I'll just carry on with my preferred light hearted take on it all (and an excuse to post South Park clips).


Link: Go God Go !

CheshireBoro Posted on 18/11/2008 13:11
Who belives in God

Dibzzz,

Which what?

north_east_invader Posted on 18/11/2008 13:13
Who belives in God

What is the answer to the great question ?


Link: And the Allied Athiest Alliance !

king_hellfire Posted on 18/11/2008 13:14
Who belives in God

'I prefer to have a bet each way / hedge my bets.'




I'm sure that will impress the omniscient God and he will give you an express ticket to Heaven.


Isn't God against people doing things for personal gain?

Bernie_was_right Posted on 18/11/2008 13:16
Who belives in God

I`m not religous, but believing this world was created by a god, isn`t as far fetched as believing that it all simply came from nothing......

CheshireBoro Posted on 18/11/2008 13:16
Who belives in God

King Hellfire,

I do! In a sense that is my point, there is no scientific answer to this at all. The earth today is incredibly complex, trillions of life forms of one form or another. The notion that they all evolved from an explosion is no more plausible to me than the notion of the existence of a God is to other people.

And there is nothing in my belief system that says anything about how long the universe has existed for either. My belief (and it is a personal belief) is that everything came from "something", and that "something" didn't just appear. It was put here.

Dibzzz Posted on 18/11/2008 13:17
Who belives in God

CheshireBoro

Which god do you believe in?

CheshireBoro Posted on 18/11/2008 13:18
Who belives in God

BwR, that is in essence what I am trying to say.

(but much more succinctly than i managed)


THEBOROBOSS Posted on 18/11/2008 13:19
Who belives in God

For those that believe in God No explianation is necessary

For those that do not believe in God no explianation is possible.

JonMc Posted on 18/11/2008 13:24
Who belives in God

scooby Posted on 18/11/2008 13:03

I'll repeat it one more time (once only): you simply cannot compare a few threads on here on this chat site with the very active and aggressive efforts of religions to control and convert people in the real world.
_________________________________________________________________________

But isn't control and conversion a power thing rather than a purely religious trait. Apart from the crusades I can't think of one war which was based on religion. Some wars may well have religious dogma as an axis but in truth they're about greed rather than any religious standpoint.

Putting the ball back in your court - do you think that without religion the world would have seen a significant reduction in war and torture, because I do not? Without religion men and women would have just found another excuse to take some poors sods' land.

Now then. Anyone wanna start on Africa, Catholicism and Aids? [;)]

scooby Posted on 18/11/2008 13:26
Who belives in God

Jon, I'm not on about war nor am I on about the stealing of land.

I'm on about religion being allowed to actively spread their 'gospel' with impunity for years and how ironic it is for people to moan now that atheists are having a go back when they were able to burn people for saying similar things for centuries.

Dibzzz Posted on 18/11/2008 13:28
Who belives in God

Religion just takes the ability to think away from humans.

Muttley Posted on 18/11/2008 13:31
Who belives in God

Scooby you seem to be missing my point. But then Atheists do seem to have rather a dogmatic world view so I'm probably wasting my time?

JonMc Posted on 18/11/2008 13:32
Who belives in God

Well, I'm against nastiness of any kind. Be it the Catholic belief structure that CAN use fear as a ransom demand or the puritanical dogma that we see from Dawkins and his acolytes nowadays.

Dawkins comes from the wrong direction imho - some religions shout a lot and are nasty therefore we shall do the same.
Instead of screaming and shouting mebbys Dawkins would hold the high ground better by engaging in a gentler discussion.

mm40 Posted on 18/11/2008 13:34
Who belives in God

dibzzz - but what if I am right.

zzzzz Posted on 18/11/2008 13:37
Who belives in God

Sometimes.
But that's not much use really is it?

How can the torture and murder of a baby girl be done with 'gods will'?

Because according to many religions everything is done under 'gods will'?

scooby Posted on 18/11/2008 13:39
Who belives in God

"Scooby you seem to be missing my point. But then Atheists do seem to have rather a dogmatic world view so I'm probably wasting my time?"

I'm only missing the point as you see it because you want to argue some other issue with me. I don't and it flies right in the face of your "Atheists shoving things down people's throats" view.

I'm not interested in a discussion over whether god is real or not.

CheshireBoro Posted on 18/11/2008 13:43
Who belives in God

Dibzzz,

A Christian God, but I dont have a name for him (or her).

There have been times when I have doubted my faith, but i have never seen the whole of the earth and everything that occurs as being "God's will".

For the record, the torture and murder of a baby girl was much more likely to have been the act (and therefore the "will") of the person that killed her.

Muttley Posted on 18/11/2008 13:44
Who belives in God

"I'm only missing the point as you see it because you want to argue some other issue with me."

What are you talking about? I've simply said that evangelising is wrong. What is complicated about that? Either you agree with it or you don't.

But your fixation with God's existence (or non-existence) seems to form part of a general superiority complex so I don't expect you to grasp this any time soon.

scooby Posted on 18/11/2008 14:23
Who belives in God

"What are you talking about? I've simply said that evangelising is wrong. What is complicated about that? Either you agree with it or you don't."

Yes it is wrong but religions have been doing it for centuries and are still doing it today. You've singled atheists out for it in this thread which is rich after centuries of religious people doing it and using lethal force to enforce it.

Muttley Posted on 18/11/2008 14:29
Who belives in God

Because Atheists started the thread durr brain, as I said in (I think) my first post, you never get any religious evangelising on here apart from Atheists.

Get over yourselves and let people believe what they want to.

"religions have been doing it for centuries and are still doing it today" yes, and people have been killing other people for centuries, sometimes in the name of a God just as often not, would it be therefore forgiveable for Atheists to kill in the name of their (lack of) God because the God botherers started it?

I think not.

scooby Posted on 18/11/2008 14:42
Who belives in God

"durr brain"

How childish.

The original poster said "If you do fair play to you, each to there own." which is not evangelism nor are they belittling the beliefs of people who are religious. I haven't personally belittled the belief of anyone on here so I think you are way off the mark. So drop the 'being evangelised' at rubbish, because you are making it up. Or show me the part where the OP tried to convert you to atheism? Or show me where I did?

"yes, and people have been killing other people for centuries, sometimes in the name of a God just as often not, would it be therefore forgiveable for Atheists to kill in the name of their (lack of) God because the God botherers started it?"

Where have I said that atheists should be allowed to kill people just because religious people once did? My point is, well, stated a few times above but you don't want to listen or can't understand it. Less of the "durr brain" remarks would probably be best for you considering that.

north_east_invader Posted on 18/11/2008 14:45
Who belives in God

I believe in Gareth Southgate !

Muttley Posted on 18/11/2008 14:58
Who belives in God

"Where have I said that atheists should be allowed to kill people just because religious people once did?"

Is English your second language?

Or perhaps you are just being silly?

scooby Posted on 18/11/2008 15:11
Who belives in God

Now who's being all superior?

You said:

"yes, and people have been killing other people for centuries, sometimes in the name of a God just as often not, would it be therefore forgiveable for Atheists to kill in the name of their (lack of) God because the God botherers started it? Of course not"

You are saying that atheists killing people just because religious people used to would be wrong. I agree, I never suggested it was. Please show me where I suggested or even hinted at that? Again, you are trying to get me to argue a different point than I was making.

number9point5 Posted on 18/11/2008 15:45
Who belives in God

Why are those who profess to "not to believe" in God are so interested why others do? I don't personally care if you believe or not it what I beleive thats important to me.

Perhaps it the lure of an easy ton that does it?

Besides as the great Dylan (bob not the other one) said "we all serve someone"

On a ligher note he certainly shined on me today went round 4 under well chuffed.

number9 Posted on 18/11/2008 15:58
Who belives in God

CheshireBoro

the Christian God is Jehovah or Yahweh if tyou prefer. Most bibles removed the name, but are now putting it back, but it is still in the Jerusalem version and in the KJ ver Ps 83:18, Ex 6:3, Isa 12:2 & 26:4.

This is a translation of the Tetragram YHWH, written hebrew contained no vowels.

ABCD Posted on 18/11/2008 16:01
Who belives in God

i remember someone once posted the figures for people killed by wars & governments, if memory serves the "athiest" states have killed more people in the 20th cen than religous wars ever did.

scooby Posted on 18/11/2008 16:03
Who belives in God

That's an interesting point ABCD, but you'll have to ask Muttley why he raised that issue as he's the only one going on about it on this thread.

ABCD Posted on 18/11/2008 16:05
Who belives in God

i'm not getting involved as this will turn out like the "Gay Marriage" thread where people stop reading posts just insult each other. Frankly have better things to do with my time, like type this reply.

scooby Posted on 18/11/2008 16:11
Who belives in God

Well it's not my fault you didn't read the posts above.

ABCD Posted on 18/11/2008 16:12
Who belives in God

[:P] to you mate with bells on

scooby Posted on 18/11/2008 16:14
Who belives in God

These threads always end up with a smiley war, they're all the same [;)]

Bren_MFC Posted on 18/11/2008 20:36
Who belives in God

surely belief is just that, someones belief based on faith, why do people need some sort of scientific proof, religion isn't a science

Bigborofan1987 Posted on 18/11/2008 20:43
Who belives in God

When ive made mistakes ive prayed to god and he dont make me feel any better so im a non beliver

atkingson Posted on 18/11/2008 20:43
Who belives in God

i believe in a godess.

king_hellfire Posted on 18/11/2008 23:25
Who belives in God

'why do people need some sort of scientific proof, religion isn't a science'



Try reading Richard Dawkins' (yes, Richard Dawkins, don't groan [:)]) response to the following couple of paragraphs and tell me he isn't talking sense...



Chamberlainites are apt to quote the late Stephen Jay Gould's 'NOMA' - 'non-overlapping magisteria'. Gould claimed that science and true religion never come into conflict because they exist in completely separate dimensions of discourse:

To say it for all my colleagues and for the umpteenth millionth time (from college bull sessions to learned treatises): science simply cannot (by its legitimate methods) adjudicate the issue of God's possible superintendence of nature. We neither affirm nor deny it; we simply can't comment on it as scientists.







(Richard Dawkins)

This sounds terrific, right up until you give it a moment's thought. You then realize that the presence of a creative deity in the universe is clearly a scientific hypothesis. Indeed, it is hard to imagine a more momentous hypothesis in all of science. A universe with a god would be a completely different kind of universe from one without, and it would be a scientific difference. God could clinch the matter in his favour at any moment by staging a spectacular demonstration of his powers, one that would satisfy the exacting standards of science. Even the infamous Templeton Foundation recognized that God is a scientific hypothesis - by funding double-blind trials to test whether remote prayer would speed the recovery of heart patients. It didn't, of course, although a control group who knew they had been prayed for tended to get worse (how about a class action suit against the Templeton Foundation?) Despite such well-financed efforts, no evidence for God's existence has yet appeared.

To see the disingenuous hypocrisy of religious people who embrace NOMA, imagine that forensic archeologists, by some unlikely set of circumstances, discovered DNA evidence demonstrating that Jesus was born of a virgin mother and had no father. If NOMA enthusiasts were sincere, they should dismiss the archeologists' DNA out of hand: "Irrelevant. Scientific evidence has no bearing on theological questions. Wrong magisterium." Does anyone seriously imagine that they would say anything remotely like that? You can bet your boots that not just the fundamentalists but every professor of theology and every bishop in the land would trumpet the archeological evidence to the skies.

Either Jesus had a father or he didn't. The question is a scientific one, and scientific evidence, if any were available, would be used to settle it. The same is true of any miracle - and the deliberate and intentional creation of the universe would have to have been the mother and father of all miracles. Either it happened or it didn't. It is a fact, one way or the other, and in our state of uncertainty we can put a probability on it - an estimate that may change as more information comes in. Humanity's best estimate of the probability of divine creation dropped steeply in 1859 when The Origin of Species was published, and it has declined steadily during the subsequent decades, as evolution consolidated itself from plausible theory in the nineteenth century to established fact today.




Link: Science and God.

johnsmithsno2 Posted on 19/11/2008 08:20
Who belives in God

Me! Can't be arsed reading the thread but there's your hundred!

number9 Posted on 19/11/2008 08:23
Who belives in God

Have a cigar qatarwatty

Well done and if it was not for king_hellfire you would have gotten there without someone quoting that knob dawkins.#

"as evolution consolidated itself from plausible theory in the nineteenth century to established fact today"

YAWN

zaphod Posted on 19/11/2008 09:02
Who belives in God

"God could clinch the matter in his favour at any moment by staging a spectacular demonstration of his powers, one that would satisfy the exacting standards of science."

What about the resurrection, seen by hundreds of people, many of whom were prepared to be killed for saying so? Jesus predicted beforehand that most people still wouldn't believe. Of course Dawkins would say that he and/or his mates didn't see it so it doesn't count. Why should God bother with people who are so determined? Answer: he doesn't.

"Humanity's best estimate of the probability of divine creation dropped steeply in 1859 when The Origin of Species was published, and it has declined steadily during the subsequent decades"

This is only true in Dawkins world. There are more Christians now than ever & more Muslims, too. Only a small percentage of world population currently has no religious belief.

nobbienuts Posted on 19/11/2008 09:15
Who belives in God

I agree Zaphod

Dawkins is akin to those twits in the USA who stand on street cornors shouting at people and telling them they will burn in hell.

I recently read that dawkins is going to write a book for children dispelling the myths about the tooth fairy, st. nick et all. He sounds like a real riot must put him on my "invite to diner list".

That said chritanity has not done itself any favours with some very dubious doctrines about hell fire the trinity and all that.

scooby Posted on 19/11/2008 10:12
Who belives in God

Dawkins gets his views read because he takes the time to explain them. I guess "YAWN" wouldn't really work!

number9 Posted on 19/11/2008 10:14
Who belives in God

"YAWN"

Does it not get boring/tedious scooby having to constantly defend dawkins?

scooby Posted on 19/11/2008 10:17
Who belives in God

It's a first for me, I've never read anything of his before!

Personally, I like the scientific approach. It leaves you open to question things.

number9 Posted on 19/11/2008 10:26
Who belives in God

I question everything that's how I came to believe what I believe. Blind faith/credulity is for idiots imho.

Just because I believe in God does not mean i blindly accepted it now does it? I spent over 4 years looking into what I believe, which is probably more time than most atheists spend looking into why they are atheists.

This is what most atheists seem unable to grasp, that a person who believes in God, is just as capable at evaluating all the evidence and then coming to a different conclusion to you.

Why is that, and that’s a serious question.


scooby Posted on 19/11/2008 10:41
Who belives in God

I can't speak for everyone and I really haven't got time today to go into this that much but for me it's just that I don't see any evidence to support God and lots of evidence that looks pretty nailed on that contradicts rather important axioms of Christianity.

number9 Posted on 19/11/2008 10:46
Who belives in God

So why do you feel it necessary to "convert" people to your point of view. Surely the object is to present the evidence encourage people to look at it and draw there own conclusions. If those conclusions then differ from your own why do you feel the need to deride/belittle what they have come to believe?

Now I use that last sentence as a generalisation toward most, not all atheists, but especially toward dawkins who is the epitome of a bigot (seems to be the popular word on here at the moment) toward any who disagree with him.

scooby Posted on 19/11/2008 10:55
Who belives in God

"So why do you feel it necessary to "convert" people to your point of view."

I don't, it wouldn't work anyway. What I object to (for want of a better phrase) is some of the philosophical arguments people give for dismissing the scientific view.

Dawkins might annoy people but preaching and being condescending happens on both sides.

number9 Posted on 19/11/2008 11:03
Who belives in God

"preaching and being condescending happens on both sides"

Of course it does because that's human nature. As for the scientific view i have read nothing in the bible that contradicts established scientific fact.

The bible told us the world was round long before Galileo "came up with the idea". Sadly Men/women misinterpret both the bible and science for there own ends. I don’t object to atheists holding there views, frankly it’s none of my business, I do object to misinterpretation and misrepresentation.

But then these “debates” always end in a “mines bigger than yours” shouting match. As someone said on another thread, debate does not happen on here anymore football wise or not.

king_hellfire Posted on 19/11/2008 11:19
Who belives in God

"Humanity's best estimate of the probability of divine creation dropped steeply in 1859 when The Origin of Species was published, and it has declined steadily during the subsequent decades"

This is only true in Dawkins world. There are more Christians now than ever & more Muslims, too. Only a small percentage of world population currently has no religious belief.





You've misunderstood the quote zaphod.

He isn't saying there has been a decline in the number of people believing in a God, he is saying that the PROBABILITIES of a God existing are decreasing as the relatively frequent emergence of evidence that contradicts religious beliefs is discovered.



The religious posters on here tend to attack Dawkins persona rather than his idea's.

Idea's, by the way, which he explains the reasoning behind using scientific facts and logic, which is more than most religious people do.

number9 Posted on 19/11/2008 11:22
Who belives in God

"The religious posters on here tend to attack Dawkins persona rather than his idea's."

I would disagree king_hellfire, that said i'm off to walk the dog.

crowborough81 Posted on 19/11/2008 11:42
Who belives in God

oh its good to be a roman catholic

scooby Posted on 19/11/2008 11:43
Who belives in God

Galileo didn't come up with the Earth being round idea anyway. He knew it was but the ancient greeks knew it was too.

The difference is that Galileo could prove it and the Bible simply expects you to accept it. That's not enough for me.

king_hellfire Posted on 19/11/2008 11:49
Who belives in God

Both God and the ancient Greeks got it wrong!

The Earth isn't round, it's an oblate spheroid [;)]

The_same_as_before Posted on 19/11/2008 12:11
Who belives in God

Why do the non-believers have to be so venonmous against those that are?

JonMc Posted on 19/11/2008 12:15
Who belives in God

It gives them an overwhelming glow of superiority, much in the same way as the right wing religious zealots are blissful in the fact that they have God's mobile number whereas the rest of us do not.

scooby Posted on 19/11/2008 12:26
Who belives in God

"Why do the non-believers have to be so venonmous against those that are?"

Show me where on this thread then.

I was called "dur brain"( [:D] ) and asked if english was my first language yesterday, I haven't resorted to insults here - I've just stated my case.

number9 Posted on 19/11/2008 13:50
Who belives in God

Sorry to burst your bubble hellfire but...

Isa 40:22 states
"There is One who is dwelling above the circle of the earth"

The Hebrew word “chugh”, can be translated as “circle,” but it may also be rendered “sphere.”

Three other Bible translations read, “the globe of the earth” (Douay Version) and
“the round earth.” (Moffatt)

As yo stated Technically speaking, the earth is an oblate spheroid; as it is slightly flattened at the poles.

Additionally, only a spherical object appears as a circle from every angle of view. A flat disk would more often appear as an ellipse, not a circle

So I guess that God got it right first.

scooby Posted on 19/11/2008 13:56
Who belives in God

Or everyone knew it was a globe before the bible was written? The bible *was* written by a man wasn't it?

I could tell you the Earth is a sphere but I won't require you to jump through several etymological hoops or dig out obscure translations that happen to fit.

number9 Posted on 19/11/2008 14:05
Who belives in God

Reckon you could have 3000yrs ago?

What would be nice occasionally would be for a dawkins disciple to admit that the bible, although written by many men and women, is actually right about many things that science has only just proven for themselves.

as for "dig out obscure translations that happen to fit" that was for clarity, do not "scientists" quote other "scientists" on the same subject or are we "God people" not allowed to do that?

The mark of a person at ease with there belief system is humility, which oddly enough is not a weakness but a strength imho.

That said I now have to go to the bank, so cul8tr, as they say.

Dibzzz Posted on 19/11/2008 14:24
Who belives in God

If God does exist (the one that lives on a cloud with a white beard) he has quite a lot to answer for doesn't he?

I wonder if it's possible to sue him?

scooby Posted on 19/11/2008 15:53
Who belives in God

"Reckon you could have 3000yrs ago?"

Any sea faring person could.

"What would be nice occasionally would be for a dawkins disciple to admit that the bible, although written by many men and women, is actually right about many things that science has only just proven for themselves."

I'm not a dawkins disciple. As I said above, I've only ever read one article.

"bible, although written by many men and women, is actually right about many things that science has only just proven for themselves."

Can you name a single one? You can't have the "world is round" thing because people have known that for thousands of years. The fact that the bible mentions it in passing strikes me as odd, almost as if it was no surprise to anyone at the time...

number9 Posted on 19/11/2008 17:07
Who belives in God

"You can't have the "world is round""

A bit convenient for you that one?

I could name many from hygiene to the earth being suspended in space, which predated Aristotle by over 1,100 years (Job 26:7) to the water cycle (Eccl 1:7, Job 36:27) read them if you wish, dismiss them if you like.

but heres the crux..

1) You will just no doubt just dismiss them out of hand so why should i take the time out
2) I will open myself to abuse on this board, which I have done before and frankly don't feel inclined to do again.
3) I don't enter into theological debates on here as I have stated many times.
4) I am at ease with my faith and don't feel the need to either defend it or prove and niether do i wish to convert or preach on here.

So on that note, I reckon I have had enough of this thread now.

scooby Posted on 19/11/2008 17:26
Who belives in God

You can't have the Earth is round being first predicted by the bible because a: the earliest mariners knew it was and b: the obtuse quote you gave is like a crossword question. It doesn't say the the Earth is round.

The others you mentioned:

The Earth is suspended in space

"He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing"

"All the rivers run into the sea; yet the sea is not full; unto the place from whence the rivers come, thither they return again.

For he maketh small the drops of water: they pour down rain according to the vapour thereof"


I won't go on but there's nothing explanatory about cryptic single lines in a very cryptic book with meanings attached after the fact. It's a bit Nostradamus to me.

If those explanations are so accurate, how come people then claimed to have discovered them years later when it was so clearly staring them in the face?

fatsuma Posted on 19/11/2008 17:35
Who belives in God

I agree scooby, it's all as clear as looking through a dirty window!


Bren_MFC Posted on 19/11/2008 18:21
Who belives in God

people still don't seem to grasp the term 'faith' which is believing without seeing or having proof, ever heard of 'doubting Thomas' , the human mind needs proof to accept things but with faith their is no proof just belief, thats why scientists will never be able to get to grips with the concept of God.

SplendidStuff Posted on 19/11/2008 18:29
Who belives in God

Faith is a belief in the trustworthiness of an idea.


bigrichardthe3rd Posted on 19/11/2008 18:29
Who belives in God

iam a believer,

king_hellfire Posted on 19/11/2008 22:50
Who belives in God

'The Hebrew word “chugh”, can be translated as “circle,” but it may also be rendered “sphere.”'

'So I guess that God got it right first.'





I was only joking about God and the Greeks getting it wrong about the Earth being round (hence the winky smiley).

Even if the word 'chugh' only meant circle and not sphere, i wouldn't be so pedantic as to say that the Bible got it wrong.



OPEO Posted on 19/11/2008 23:35
Who belives in God

I don't believe in God. Any faith I may have had as a young 'un dried up as I got older.
I couldn't give two figs about what anyone else chooses to believe but I do lose my rag when confronted by bible bashers or he likes.

Scrote Posted on 19/11/2008 23:50
Who belives in God

i believe in a Christian God and i believe Jesus was more than just a 'normal' man

i'm not massively fond of religious institutions but i do understand their origin - using them as a stick to beat Jesus with is like using al-qaeda as a stick to beat saddam hussein

scooby -

"I don't believe in God but do atheists push their views onto others? Perhaps it's a reaction.

...I've never seen church of atheism collecting so they can spread the non-word about..."

did you not see the athiest posters on london buses and the massive collection campaign? - it made most major news outlets

and terrorists acting in the name of no-god is a stupid idea - lots of terrorists act for reasons that don't involve God but no terrorist acts for no reason - even anarchists/nihilist have reasons for their acts (i tend to see Jesus as a sort of anarchist in His own way...)

scooby Posted on 20/11/2008 00:02
Who belives in God

My point which was made in far more words than just the quotes you've got there is that the indoctrination from religion has been happening for far longer and with much more organisation than any preaching from atheists has. That was made in response to people taking issue with atheists 'pushing their views' on others which quite frankly is a drop in the ocean compared to how it has been when the roles are reversed.

A few centuries ago, I would have been burnt for what I said on this thread so I think you can handle a couple of bus ads!

For what it's worth, I don't really feel compelled to push atheism on anyone, I just don't think you can convert anyone to it as I don't think it is a matter of faith.

king_hellfire Posted on 20/11/2008 00:05
Who belives in God

Scrote.

I know from previous posts that you know what you're talking about regarding Religion, what i want to know is, what's your stance on Stephen Jay Gould's 'NOMA' (non-overlapping magisteria)?



Here's Gould's reasoning:


'To say it for all my colleagues and for the umpteenth millionth time (from college bull sessions to learned treatises): science simply cannot (by its legitimate methods) adjudicate the issue of God's possible superintendence of nature. We neither affirm nor deny it; we simply can't comment on it as scientists.'




Also, do you believe that Dawkins makes a good point with the quote below?



'To see the disingenuous hypocrisy of religious people who embrace NOMA, imagine that forensic archeologists, by some unlikely set of circumstances, discovered DNA evidence demonstrating that Jesus was born of a virgin mother and had no father. If NOMA enthusiasts were sincere, they should dismiss the archeologists' DNA out of hand: "Irrelevant. Scientific evidence has no bearing on theological questions. Wrong magisterium." Does anyone seriously imagine that they would say anything remotely like that? You can bet your boots that not just the fundamentalists but every professor of theology and every bishop in the land would trumpet the archeological evidence to the skies.'

Scrote Posted on 20/11/2008 01:03
Who belives in God

k_h - dawkins has just taken the idea and re-interpreted it to suit his own ends

gould was very careful in how he defined his 'magesteria' and it certainly doesn't preclude using scientific advances to 'prove' religious history (and therefore religions 'truth' (for want of a better word))

religion can't prove science and science can't prove religion (at least not any religion that states it's God is outside of the human frame of reference) - it is a no-brainer at such a simple level - to then argue that science can't be used to back up religion (or religion used to back up science if it was practicable) is plainly absurd yet this seems to be dawkins's logic

it's like declaring that atoms don't exist because we can't see them without science but we aren't allowed to use science to prove they are there

it's one of my main problems with dawkins (and those that parrot him without actually thinking for themselves) - he is very good at creating simple and compelling (but often non-existent) arguments and then pulling them to pieces (e.g. latching on to the most bizarre religious ideas as his basis for what all religion is)

scooby - i think the point muttley was trying to make (and forgive me if i'm wrong mr Tley) is that atheists go on and on about how terrible persecution is and how evil proselytising is and yet as soon as they get a voice they do just that (i think it's called human nature (which is also the reason why people move towards the political right as they get older and have more financial clout))

terrytranny Posted on 20/11/2008 01:29
Who belives in God

No.

My word, there's some disgustingly naive and ignorant people in here.

ABCD Posted on 20/11/2008 09:34
Who belives in God

terrytranny

in what way?