|wokingmassive Posted on 11/09/2008 19:53|
To show just how great religion is I thought we should have a quiz.
Which religion assisted a large number of high ranking Nazi's escape to South America at the end of World War 2?
|Sea_Harrier Posted on 11/09/2008 19:54|
I think that I can guess where this one's going.
|A1bert_Park Posted on 11/09/2008 19:55|
The 4 x 2s
|John_Boro Posted on 11/09/2008 19:56|
catholics knew aboutt the holocaust and did FA
|ridsdale Posted on 11/09/2008 19:58|
Which famous board member is moving into a church to live?
|BenGee Posted on 11/09/2008 19:58|
The same Religion that actively baptised many thousands of Jews to stop the Nazi's taking them away to concentration camps.
|red_shamrock Posted on 11/09/2008 19:59|
A very Divisive Post S***stirrer.
|BenGee Posted on 11/09/2008 20:01|
"catholics knew aboutt the holocaust and did FA"
See my post above.
Pius XII was one of the few world leaders outside Jewry itself who was quick to recognize the danger of Nazism. Former Israeli diplomat Pinchas Lapide, in his book The Last Three Popes and the Jews demonstrates convincingly the consistent and active protection provided to Jews in Europe by the papacy. He does not shrink from strong criticism of other parts of the Catholic Church where necessary and of some Catholic governments in particular. Further, he commands respect from those reading from a Jewish perspective.
It is estimated that the actions of Pius XII directly led to the saving of 800,000 Jewish lives during the war. The estimate of 800,000 Jewish lives is based upon the testimony of the post-war government of the recently created State of Israel which recognized and honored that pope’s contribution. The Israelis recognized the figure and a forest of as many trees was planted in commemoration in the Negeb, SE of Jerusalem, and was shown to Pope Paul VI with some ceremony on his first state visit to Israel. Rev. Fr. Jean Charles-Roux, now a Rosininian priest living in London and whose father was French Ambassador to the Holy See in the 30’s, lived with his family in Rome during the fateful pre-war period. He recalls that the Pope told his father as early as 1935 that the new regime in Germany was "diabolical." The Ambassador frequently warned his government but the general reaction in France seems to have been that it was good to see the back of the Prussian militarist and that it was no bad thing that an Austrian-Czech house painter was now Chancellor.
The reaction in the USA and Britain was scarcely different at that time; and even later when they must have begun to know about the camps. The U.S. government accepted a total of 10,000 – 15,000 Jewish refugees throughout the war. — a truly scandalous statistic.
Britain was little better and before the war the government had been full of "appeasers," the Duke of Windsor visited Hitler and Lloyd George even went so far as to call him "the greatest living German"!
|wokingmassive Posted on 11/09/2008 20:07|
Which order of 'priests' forcibily removed children from their parents in South American Jungles from the 17th Century until the 20th Centuary because they did not want the children to be brought up by lawless savages?
|BenGee Posted on 11/09/2008 20:16|
Is that because the natives in those South American Jungles were practising incest amongst other acts that in a civilised world we frown upon?
|red_shamrock Posted on 11/09/2008 20:16|
Thought you were an alright bloke your just another bigot who enjoys his history.
|wokingmassive Posted on 11/09/2008 20:18|
The only religion the world needs is kindness
|red_shamrock Posted on 11/09/2008 20:19|
Each to their own nobodys got all the answers...very disappointed
|Pinkers Posted on 11/09/2008 20:19|
Haha. This threads not going well for you so far woking. Must try harder.
|BenGee Posted on 11/09/2008 20:20|
"Thought you were an alright bloke your just another bigot who enjoys his history"
A one sided secular version of History maybe.
|wokingmassive Posted on 11/09/2008 20:27|
Thousand of years of religion has only served to divide mankind into differing sections.
These sections, with opposing beliefs then take up arms against one another.
The only religion the world needs is kindness
|red_shamrock Posted on 11/09/2008 20:28|
Met a few who hated Catholics for no particular reason but there ya go I just ignore em.
|Pinkers Posted on 11/09/2008 20:29|
I think you'll find your confusing religion with people.
|wokingmassive Posted on 11/09/2008 20:32|
Which religious Church in Los Angeles, the largest archdiocese in the US, has agreed to pay an unprecedented £300 million to settle sexual abuse cases, according to a lawyer for the plaintiffs.
The deal, yet to be approved by a judge, amounts to about £500,000 for each of more than 500 people who claimed they were victims of abuse by the clergy. It would be the biggest paid by the Church since the scandal erupted in 2002 and would bring the total amount paid across the US to almost a billion pounds.
Property sales will be needed to raise the cash and it remains unclear how much of the bill will be footed by insurers - especially as the Church only recently began taking out cover for sexual abuse claims.
|benpoolie Posted on 11/09/2008 20:43|
|wokingmassive Posted on 11/09/2008 20:48|
Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man -- living in the sky -- who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do.. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time! ..But He loves you.
|Esekiel1517 Posted on 11/09/2008 20:52|
If he loves a Boro fan,anything is possible,surely?
|red_shamrock Posted on 11/09/2008 21:03|
Not forgetting the Gnashing of Teeth whatever that is?
|wokingmassive Posted on 11/09/2008 21:03|
People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs
|Esekiel1517 Posted on 11/09/2008 21:07|
Gnashing is the product of the weak,shamrock.;-)
|wokingmassive Posted on 11/09/2008 21:11|
Richard Lederer (Anguished English) There once was a time when all people believed in God and the church ruled. This time was called the Dark Ages.
|red_shamrock Posted on 11/09/2008 21:23|
For a non religious man You seem to know quite a lot about the subject....Me I couldn't care less about any of it but give a bloke an orange box he`ll stand on it and proclaim he knows all the answers whether religious or atheist rather like politicians always seeking the disenfranchised.
|wokingmassive Posted on 11/09/2008 21:24|
Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day; teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime; give a man religion and he will die praying for a fish.
I am just sick of religion and the woes it brings every day on mankind - we dont need it - and thankfully it is dying a slow death. I am just trying to speed up that process.
|red_shamrock Posted on 11/09/2008 21:28|
What would you replace it with and bare in mind after every high there follows a low and vice versa.
Kindness how long could you keep that up for?.
|wokingmassive Posted on 11/09/2008 21:31|
As an atheist I believe that a hospital should be built instead of a church. I believe that a deed must be done instead of a prayer said. An Atheist strives for involvement in life and not escape into death. He wants disease conquered, poverty vanished, but by physically doing things, not praying to an imaginary friend and hoping for things to happen.
|ccole Posted on 11/09/2008 21:34|
Would religion need replacing?
|wokingmassive Posted on 11/09/2008 21:34|
ccole - good point well said.
|Esekiel1517 Posted on 11/09/2008 21:35|
Then we all believe in the same things!Except Downing!
|wokingmassive Posted on 11/09/2008 21:37|
Seneca the Younger 4 b.c.- 65 a.d. Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.
Look at how old this quote is - clever chap had it all figured out even back then.
|red_shamrock Posted on 11/09/2008 21:41|
You said you Believe and strive therfore you have Creed and a Doctrine.
Your just another Religion sowing your worthy cause I dont buy God so I cant buy an Anti God.
|wokingmassive Posted on 11/09/2008 21:42|
Two hands working can do more than a thousand clasped in prayer
|bear66 Posted on 11/09/2008 21:44|
Is that the same Seneca who acted as Nero's advisor . . . I think you're seeking wisdom in the wrong place there
|wokingmassive Posted on 11/09/2008 21:46|
History teaches us that no other cause has brought more death than the word of god.
So would we be better with it - or without it?
|red_shamrock Posted on 11/09/2008 21:47|
Nice twist on old Adage but you cant sell me something I have no need for.
And the Adage was Two hand manually working are worth 1000 sat at a desk.
|wokingmassive Posted on 11/09/2008 21:48|
I've got better things to do than sit in a pointy building listening to a man in a dress read a poem.
|bear66 Posted on 11/09/2008 21:49|
"History teaches us that no other cause has brought more death than the word of god"
You mean those wonderful religious men Stalin and Hitler professed to act on the word of God? Which history books do you read?
|red_shamrock Posted on 11/09/2008 21:50|
Is that Westminter palace you speak of.
|wokingmassive Posted on 11/09/2008 21:52|
Those were just two incidents in the last centary, I am talking about the total numbers killed in the name of god over the last few thousand years.
We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing all-powerful God, who creates faulty Humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes.
|onthemap Posted on 11/09/2008 21:53|
Funnily enough Woking, you and Madalyn Murray O'Hair think exactly the same thing.
|Esekiel1517 Posted on 11/09/2008 21:53|
Surely the fabric of religion keeps us together?
|wokingmassive Posted on 11/09/2008 21:55|
Esekiel1517 it does infact, do the opposite.
George Bush says he speaks to god every day, and christians love him for it. If George Bush said he spoke to god through his hair dryer, they would think he was mad. I fail to see how the addition of a hair dryer makes it any more absurd.
|bear66 Posted on 11/09/2008 21:56|
Oh and Pol Pot . . . and the Great Leap forward . . . and the Spanish Flu
Those numbers alone are close to the number of everyone who died prior to the start of the 20th Century . . .
|wokingmassive Posted on 11/09/2008 21:59|
Throughout the history of man, religion has been responsible for wars, persecutions, genocide and slavery. It has stifled the development of science and the creation of the very technology that is helping so many today. It has been responsible for the annihilation of entire civilizations. But overall, what good has come of them? Yes, we have some nice morals, which seemed to have developed universally in almost all societies regardless of religion. Religious philosophers have contributed in some ways to the advancement of society. But has the contributions of religion to this world been greater than the damage it has caused?
|Dibzzz Posted on 11/09/2008 21:59|
"George Bush says he speaks to god every day,"
Really? Which one?
|red_shamrock Posted on 11/09/2008 22:02|
If you look at it enough and Iam sure you do its all to do with Monarchs/Goverments/Church/ Dictators + cronies love of power and cash.
Same thing happens today but we call it Democracy,different day same sort of blokes same hat.
They would have us believe anything and kill us all for a few quid.
Don't tell me you believe in Politics
|bear66 Posted on 11/09/2008 22:07|
Some numbers please?
|wokingmassive Posted on 11/09/2008 22:14|
Killed more. Without a doubt.
Crusades - Estimated around 9,000,000.
Inquisitions - Unknown...
Jhadis - Unknown...
Need I press on?
|red_shamrock Posted on 11/09/2008 22:18|
Learnt nothing new there, however Iam sure there was a Monarch and a Government involved or maybe just politically motivated.
|Esekiel1517 Posted on 11/09/2008 22:19|
Faith heals more than it kills,without faith we would have an unsustainable society which is,after all,the fulcrum of our being.
|wokingmassive Posted on 11/09/2008 22:21|
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned.
|bear66 Posted on 11/09/2008 22:27|
Your numbers are about 50% of Stalin alone
Throughout the history of man, man has been responsible for wars, persecutions, genocide and slavery.
|Esekiel1517 Posted on 11/09/2008 22:27|
Belief is subjective,i do,you dont,...apparently.
|wokingmassive Posted on 11/09/2008 22:32|
bear66 I was wrong - the point about religion killing more is not true - I have looked up the numbers.
So I stand corrected.
However with or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.
|maxi_levy Posted on 11/09/2008 22:35|
what time does the match start on satda anyone know?
|Esekiel1517 Posted on 11/09/2008 22:37|
After your protest march,surely?
|wokingmassive Posted on 11/09/2008 22:46|
Am off to watch bed now - have to leave early - as I have to say my prays first.
Only joking - but thanks to all who chipped in this thread.
And I leave you with this quote from Thomas Jefferson
I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology.
|Esekiel1517 Posted on 11/09/2008 22:53|
|benpoolie Posted on 11/09/2008 23:52|
did I win the quiz ffs?!
|number4 Posted on 12/09/2008 04:27|
the correct answer is mormons, mormons the correct answer.
ps why do people who start these religion threads always use catholicism as the stick to beat all religion with ?
laziness would be my guess.
woking: 10 things he doesn't want us to do ? not exactly unreasonable though are they.
it's easy and popular to criticise religious groups, maybe it makes those people who have no self control feel less guilty about the things they get up to.
of course, all priests are nonces aren't they? well, they must be if some of them are, right ?
like guys who work in IT. every last one a nonce. obviously.
it's easy for some to ignore the selfless devotion of some peoples life to the betterment of others in favour of blaming them for stifling scientific advancement and the spread of HIV in sub-saharan africa.
you need to be able to sort the chaff from the seed in all things in life, you get a lot more out of it that way.
|br14 Posted on 12/09/2008 04:53|
Certainly can't argue that much badness has been done in the name of religion.
Just because people do bad things in the name of a belief system, doesn't mean all persons professing that belief system are bad.
For example, wasn't Joseph Stalin an atheist.
For the record, who said the following:
"Happy are the mild tempered since they will inherit the earth"
"Happy are the merciful since they will be shown mercy"
"Happy are the peaceable since they will be called "sons of God"
"There is more happiness in giving than there is in receiving"
"No one has love greater than this, that someone should surrender his soul in behalf of his friends"
Lot's of religions profess to follow the bloke but not too many actually get withing a light year of adhering to his teachings.
I don't suppose you can blame Marx or whoever for Stalin either.
|zaphod Posted on 12/09/2008 05:32|
woking, as I've said in the past many times on this board, the number of religious wars and casualties in them are always vastly exaggerated by anti-religious fanatics like you.
How on earth do you get a casualty figure of 9 million for the Crusades when only about half a million people maximum lived in Palestine? Were they all killed several times?
The religious war with the most casualties was actually the 30 years war, but casualties in that pale into insignificance compared with the depredations of atheists like Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot, who probably killed about 80 million between them. Considering how few atheistic rulers there have been in the world, it is absolutely stunning how much slaughter they have been responsible for.
Until the early 20th Century, almost everyone was religious and the massive expansion of wealth & scientific advance in the 18th & 19th Century was achieved with belief in religion the norm. The decline of religious belief in the 20th Century has coincided with a brutal & callous period in world history.
BTW, Thomas Jefferson was a slave-owner who kept a black concubine. Not really someone to look up to as a paragon. One of his most famous sayings is: "What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must from time to time be refreshed with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure." George Bush would agree.
|wokingmassive Posted on 12/09/2008 08:44|
If Jesus were alive today, do you think he would want people to go to Church every Sunday for a few hours to sing to a wooden carving, or do you think he would prefer those couple of hours to be spent instead - doing voluntary or charity work?
|BenGee Posted on 12/09/2008 08:49|
As I said above the topic starter has a very one sided secular version of history in his mind.
The Spanish Inquisition and the reign of terror they supposedly inflicted is in fact vastly exaggerated. Basic research into the facts will show this up.
|wokingmassive Posted on 12/09/2008 08:50|
Napoleon Bonaparte : Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet
|silver Posted on 12/09/2008 08:54|
God Doesn't exist.
World religion's by percenage:
Approximately 87% of the population of the world Belive in something.
The other 13% rather dont care or dont keep an open enough mind.
God does exist.
13% of the world
|BenGee Posted on 12/09/2008 09:00|
"Napoleon Bonaparte : Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet "
Using another tyrant to back up your argument????
|wokingmassive Posted on 12/09/2008 09:00|
Jesus was said to have lived a frugal and simple existance. But it always bends my head when I hear that the vatican has contains the richest art collection in the world.
Jesus was poor, millions in the world starving, vatican richest art collection in the world. How does that work out then?
Some people might say (but not me) that its just a money collection machine fleecing easy led people.
|borotmt Posted on 12/09/2008 09:03|
Silver, your not a geordie by anychance are you?
Your using the same "10 million flys cant be wrong" argument.
Workingmassive, drop the anti catholic side of your argument, its ALL religions.
Religion is simply a tool or device that allows the ignorant to sleep easier and the clever to control the ignorant.
|silver Posted on 12/09/2008 09:04|
Put it this way.Ive seen a ghost..fully formed ghost about 3 years ago babysitting at a mates house on oliver street in linthorpe village.Never a ghost beliver,and it certainly never interested me.I know this has nothing to do with religion...but ever since seeing that ghost...it made me realise..there is more than just cureent existence o life.
|wokingmassive Posted on 12/09/2008 09:05|
Tenzin Gyatso, 14th Dalai Lama, 1988
We must conduct research and then accept the results. If they don't stand up to experimentation, Buddha's own words must be rejected.
|borotmt Posted on 12/09/2008 09:10|
"Ive seen a ghost"( whats a "fullyformed ghost" surely that's a person?!?!? isn it?).
So, seeing a ghost means god exists? er yeah.
|wokingmassive Posted on 12/09/2008 09:15|
Aldous Huxley (My fav author)
"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored."
|George1507 Posted on 12/09/2008 09:15|
The Roman Catholic Church helps poor people in almost every country in the world. It acts in a similar way to credit unions to alleviate poverty and ill health. It provides medicine and treatment to poor and needy people irrespective of their religious beliefs. It provides hope and spiritual enlightenment to millions of people in all continents, and acts as a pressure group on governments and government agencies to help to eradicate poverty. Catholic missionaries and emissaries do humanitarian work in disaster regions. Catholic churches provide a focal point for communities, and provide solace and company for people in despair. Projects sponsored, assisted and carried out in part by the church build new schools and community facilities in almost every country in the world.
Many, if not all religions have accumulated wealth over centuries, the catholic chuch is not different. I would say that maintaining wealth in art treasures (many of which contain religious iconography or have religious significance and which are at least easily negotiable) is a better way of investing in man's spiritual wellbeing than building shopping centres or car parks, as the Anglican church does.
Don't meddle with something that you know nothing about, and don't suggest that the Catholic Church is anything other than a positive influence in almost every respect.
|jam69 Posted on 12/09/2008 09:15|
capitalism,communism,greed and mens hunger for power have killed more than any other religion.
|silver Posted on 12/09/2008 09:15|
yea a fully formed ghost.Laying on the floor in the living room watching t.v around 3 am..the ex was laying asleep on the couch.leaned over to get me cigs to the right...when i looked up there was a little girl stood in the hallway in the dark...glowing white...as clear as day...just staring right into my eyes.Could see the type of clothes she had on and everything.
And when did i say because i seen a ghost that god exists? you tit.
Im simply saying that by me seeing that really changed my mind...And led me to belive there is more to it than just life and death.
|wokingmassive Posted on 12/09/2008 09:17|
Carlespie Mary Alice McKinney
Religion does three things quite effectively: Divides people, Controls people, Deludes people.
|silver Posted on 12/09/2008 09:18|
A witty quote proves nothing.
|wokingmassive Posted on 12/09/2008 09:22|
A strong desire that something is a certain way is not enough to make it so. Remove the desire and the pain ends. This is stuff we learn as children about most things in life... but religion is one area where some people simply refuse to grow up and face the truth.
|silver Posted on 12/09/2008 09:24|
Workingmassive? where did you get that last quote from? a scientist or athiest am guessin?.The only people that need to grow up is the people that dont think outside the box.
|wokingmassive Posted on 12/09/2008 09:27|
I just have a practical view point, people can help society in better ways than going to church and singing hyms to a piece of wood.
The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike.
|speckyget Posted on 12/09/2008 09:29|
Like many sixth form debaters the thread starter has got faith and devotion confused with power and authority. Which is why religion will always lose in the 'killed most' stakes - secular power replaced that of churches at the point in human history when there were simply more people around to be killed in wars and conquest.
|silver Posted on 12/09/2008 09:30|
Does the same go for the wind then? You cannot see the wind...but you feel it and hear it.Wind exists.Just like many other things that cannot be seen.
|number9 Posted on 12/09/2008 09:34|
appols if i got you wrong but I could not be bothered to read most of the replys. But as for causing deaths I think that you will find that the 20th centuary more people were killed by:
1) Hitler killed circa 10 - 15 mill non combatants
2) Stalin killed circa 20 - 25 million nin combatants
3) Moa killed circa 30 million non combatans
None believed in God.
I would also disagree with "Religion does three things quite effectively: Divides people, Controls people, Deludes people. "
Mine does not.
|wokingmassive Posted on 12/09/2008 09:40|
Hitler killed 6 million jews because of their differring religous beliefs.
So the 2nd world war had nothing at all to do with religion then? Not one bit?
|Dibzzz Posted on 12/09/2008 09:40|
Hitler did believe in God.
|wokingmassive Posted on 12/09/2008 09:41|
And look were it got us
|number9 Posted on 12/09/2008 09:43|
"So the 2nd world war had nothing at all to do with religion then? Not one bit?"
Read "The Gathering Storm" by a bloke who was there and had a bit to do with it you might learn something.
|silver Posted on 12/09/2008 09:44|
What do you mean look where it got us lol?
Stop bein so closed minded.people are religious because they choose to be open minded.Anything is possible.And yes...religion does cause war..but so do alot of other things.Sometimes they just cant think of an excuse to start war so they blame it on religion (george bush is a fine example of that).
|speckyget Posted on 12/09/2008 09:46|
'Hitler killed 6 million jews because of their differring religous beliefs.'
No, he killed 6 million Jews (plus a roughly equal number of Slavs, Gypsies, mentally disabled, etc.) because he believed them to be racially inferior.
'So the 2nd world war had nothing at all to do with religion then? Not one bit?'
Absolutely correct. Not one bit. Nor did most ostensibly 'religious' wars for that matter.
|wokingmassive Posted on 12/09/2008 09:47|
Best website on the interweb...
|number9 Posted on 12/09/2008 09:48|
Ah the last bastion of a facile argument. Stupidity wins every time. Well at least you'l proberbly get your ton.
|wokingmassive Posted on 12/09/2008 09:50|
The Führer made it known to those entrusted with the Final Solution that the killings should be done as humanely as possible. This was in line with his conviction that he was observing God's injunction to cleanse the world of vermin. Still a member in good standing of the Church of Rome despite detestation of its hierarchy ("I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so" [quoting Hitler]), he carried within him its teaching that the Jew was the killer of God. The extermination, therefore, could be done without a twinge of conscience since he was merely acting as the avenging hand of God--so long as it was done impersonally, without cruelty.
|speckyget Posted on 12/09/2008 09:53|
So, Hitler invaded Poland in pusuit of Jews to exterminate? You live and learn.
|number9 Posted on 12/09/2008 09:54|
Sorry wokingmassive but i just read this bit
"Aldous Huxley (My fav author)"
After 10 min of nearly wetting myself laughing that Huxley is youre fav author I've just wipped the tears from my eyes.
You do realise that his only half, no well quater, decent work was Brave New World. Which is a direct rip off of Shakespear and the bible. This combined with the fact he spent most of his adult life in a drug fulled haze kind of sums up your arguments.
|JonMc Posted on 12/09/2008 09:55|
Nice cut and paste job there Woking, obviously proving that like some hard line religious fundamentalists origional thought doesn't concern you.
|wokingmassive Posted on 12/09/2008 09:58|
Still - two hands working are better than a thousand praying.
|Dibzzz Posted on 12/09/2008 09:58|
The Koran game,
Pick a random page, any page, (apart from page 1 apparently) and you'll find referances to hatered, killing infadels and other general nastyness.
Try it for yourself.
|silver Posted on 12/09/2008 10:00|
you dont need 1000 pair of hands to pray...1 pair is enough.
|wokingmassive Posted on 12/09/2008 10:01|
The catholic church has stated that science should only go back as far as the big bang, and no further than this.
So even today they are hampering the advancement of mans knowledge (with the Large Hadron Collider (LHC).
Isn't religion just great?
|Dibzzz Posted on 12/09/2008 10:02|
"you dont need 1000 pair of hands to pray...1 pair is enough."
But still utterly futile.
|wokingmassive Posted on 12/09/2008 10:03|
Yea I know all about Huxley and what books I like has no bearing on the folly that is religion.
|silver Posted on 12/09/2008 10:03|
Yea...and has anything been proven yet? nope.If anything...the only thing that will do is kill us all.They will never be able to tell what started us off.
|benpoolie Posted on 12/09/2008 10:04|
""Religion does three things quite effectively: Divides people, Controls people, Deludes people. "
Mine does not."
you're joking right?!
|wokingmassive Posted on 12/09/2008 10:06|
You would have thought that the catholic church would have learned something from the Galileo and the earth not being at the centre of the universe - but no.
They still - even today - do not want science to look into the time before the big bang - still blocking mans advancement with their silly fairy stories.
(Galileo was eventually forced to recant his heliocentrism and spent the last years of his life under house arrest on orders of the inquisition)
|number9 Posted on 12/09/2008 10:06|
"The catholic church has stated that science should only go back as far as the big bang, and no further than this. "
wokingmassive let me get this right then, before the big bang, according to science & thoughs who don't believe in God say nothing existed? So the Catholic church, being a JW I am deff not a member, reckon we should not go back past the point when nothing existed?
Well you have confused me, how can you go back beyond a point that does not exist? And this is supposed to prove what exactly?
|number9 Posted on 12/09/2008 10:07|
wondered where you'd been benpoolie
|benpoolie Posted on 12/09/2008 10:09|
|benpoolie Posted on 12/09/2008 10:11|
I know you'll disagree no9 but your religion is King at controlling people and dividing their deluded followers.
you just haven't opened your eyes yet
|wokingmassive Posted on 12/09/2008 10:11|
But surely the best one for me - in a world already over populated, rife with Aids/HIV and sexual diseases, the catholic chuch does not believe in contraception.
Clever or what?
|nobbienuts Posted on 12/09/2008 10:12|
My sister used to be a JW. Always seem'd nice the one i met.
|nobbienuts Posted on 12/09/2008 10:14|
|speckyget Posted on 12/09/2008 10:15|
For a supposed atheist wokingmassive you certainly seem keen to show preferrence in your religious bigotry.
|number9 Posted on 12/09/2008 10:17|
Well i'd like to carry on this facile disscussion but have to pack and catch the train.
Waves to benpoolie and just for you Ps 27:4
|wokingmassive Posted on 12/09/2008 10:19|
Well as the catholic church has paid out over a billion dollars in kiddie fiddling law suits, I find this fact leaves a bitter taste in my mouth and wonder how or why any one would want to sign up to such an institution.
|silver Posted on 12/09/2008 10:21|
Athiests are fu*kin pric*s man.
|wokingmassive Posted on 12/09/2008 10:24|
Those with no more intellgient theories to debate, have to rely on childish insults.
|speckyget Posted on 12/09/2008 10:27|
Intellgient theories we gottem.
|sheriff_john_bunnell Posted on 12/09/2008 10:28|
|wokingmassive Posted on 12/09/2008 10:32|
Well done, I am dyslexic, is mocking the afflicted something your invisible friend approves of?
|StevieT Posted on 12/09/2008 10:32|
Perhaps a compromise ... from the BBC site.
Non-realism (Christian Atheism)
Christian Atheists want to remove what they see as the fairy tale elements of Christianity.
They prefer to call this a non-realistic version of Christianity, rather than Christian atheism. They say that they do believe in God - but not in a fairy tale way.
To do this requires great intellectual sophistication, as you can see from the outline of non-realistic Christianity below.
Essentials of non-realistic Christianity
Religion is about internal spiritual experiences, and that is all.
There is no world other than the material world around us.
There are no beings other than the living organisms on this planet or elsewhere in the universe.
There is no objective being or thing called God that exists separately from the person believing in him.
There is no 'ultimate reality' outside human minds either.
We give our own lives meaning and purpose; there is nothing outside us that does it for us.
God is a projection of the human mind.
"God" is the way human beings put 'spiritual' ideals into a poetic form that they are able to use and work with.
"God" is simply a word that stands for our highest ideals.
God-talk is a language tool that enables us to talk about our highest ideals and create meaning in our lives.
Religious stories and texts are ways in which human beings set down and work out spiritual, ethical, and fundamental meanings in life.
Our religious talk is really about us and our inner selves, and the community and culture we live in.
Religious language enables us to do something unique.
Religious talk uses the familiar language of things that exist outside ourselves to make it easier for us to handle complex and subtle ideas.
Faith therefore isn't belief in a God that exists outside minds.
Faith is what human beings do when they pursue 'spiritual' ideals.
Saying that someone follows a particular faith is a way of talking about their attitudes to life and to other people.
Worship and prayer
If there's no God out there, it might seem pointless to go to church, or to pray. Christian Atheists would disagree:
Worship is a beneficial activity. Worship in a group is good way for a community to:
communicate with each other
share ideals and ideas
explore the meaning and purpose of their individual lives, and the life of their community
Hymn-singing and prayer
These are powerful ways for individual human beings to explore the meaning and purpose of their lives.
The ceremonies and rituals of the church - are a powerful way of acting out the ideas that give meaning to our lives. They enable human beings to use action instead of words to explore their deepest ideas.
Benefits of this form of belief
Those who who believe like this claim many advantages for it:
Humanity is forced to take responsibility for everything.
Human beings are seen as powerful and able to do things for themselves.
Religion no longer has to try to explain many difficult issues that go with believing in supernatural things.
Religion is no longer in opposition to scientific progress.
Religion is an inherently democratic, rather than hierarchical activity - it's something that comes from humanity, not something forced on us by a powerful God.
|wokingmassive Posted on 12/09/2008 10:36|
I am impressed, people pointing out my spelling and grammer mistakes rather than coming up with a sensible point to debate. Love it.
Some people might say (but not me) that is scraping the bottom of the barrell.
|speckyget Posted on 12/09/2008 10:36|
If that was aimed at me I'm an atheist. And if you're coming on here being the unpleasant bigot I'm afraid you waive your rights viz respect for your unfortunate disability - which is incidentally the least of your troubles.
|johnsmithsno2 Posted on 12/09/2008 10:42|
Yes another anti-religious thread from a religion-obsessed, attention seeking pseudo intellectual.
Only a naively or deliberately skewed view could claim the Catholic Church has been and continues to be anything but a world-shaping force for good.
I'm hugely privileged and thankful to be a member and I wish you the same peace in your life that my faith gives me.
|wokingmassive Posted on 12/09/2008 10:51|
I never claimed to be an intellectual at any point ever.
I am not seeking attention, just here to put my point of view across and debate it with others holding opposing views.
Nor am I religion obsessed. If it were my choice all religions would be abolished. Churches and land put to better use - houses, hospitals etc.
|JonMc Posted on 12/09/2008 10:55|
'If it were my choice all religions would be abolished.'
So you put yourself forward as the arbiter of how people should think. And you say religion is a form of mind control.
How arrogant is that.
|wokingmassive Posted on 12/09/2008 10:59|
Tell me the use of a religion that through its none use of contraception results in an already over populated world, being more over populated?
|JonMc Posted on 12/09/2008 11:00|
Answer my statement first and I'll give you my view on Catholicism and contraception regarding the HIV debate in Africa.
|jam69 Posted on 12/09/2008 11:07|
the most populated country is a communist country
|George1507 Posted on 12/09/2008 11:12|
In spite of what happened to Galileo hundreds of years ago, or that the Catholic church is having to pay out huge sums for largely spurious lawsuits, do not let that blind you to the good that the Church does everywhere.
This is one of literally hundreds of organisations helping people in disaster and war zones.
|Link: Governments don\'t help with stuff like t|
|BenGee Posted on 12/09/2008 11:12|
Can I just say the tool that started this thread (and now probably wished he hadn't) moans about people using personal insults instead of real debate.......... this is coming from a person that has used child molestation to try and prove his point.
The HIV ban on condoms in Africa is another secular argument that has been changed to suit the tune.
The vast majority of People in Africa are non Roman Catholic, so how can the Church be blamed for the acts of people it has little or no influence over????
Simple equation is ...The Church teaches abstinence from any sexual acts outside of Marriage.
Surprisingly the Church does not say "shag all that moves but don't use a condom or else you will go to hell"
|red_harrington Posted on 12/09/2008 11:31|
Keep it up workingmassive I might not have time to get involved but I am right behind you on this and so are many more I hope
Some people would say (but not me) those who believe in god, any god that is, are just as likely to believe in fairies at the bottom of the garden. It's pathetic really, isn't it
|wokingmassive Posted on 12/09/2008 11:42|
Use of condoms for the primary purpose of preventing pregnancy is condemned, along with all other forms of artificial birth control. However, the use of condoms to combat sexually transmitted infections (STIs) is not specifically addressed by Catholic doctrine, and is currently a topic of debate among high-ranking Catholic authorities. A few, such as Belgian Cardinal Godfried Danneels, believe the Catholic Church should actively support condoms used to prevent disease, especially serious diseases such as AIDS.
To date, statements from the Vatican have argued not that use of condoms to prevent disease is immoral, but rather that condom-promotion programs are simply bad policy. The Vatican's current position is that such programs encourage promiscuity, thereby actually increasing STI transmission. Papal study of the issue is ongoing, and in 2006 a study on the use of condoms to combat AIDS was prepared for review by Pope Benedict XVI.
Some people might say (but not me) that this action is about 25 years to late.
|JonMc Posted on 12/09/2008 11:49|
Now then, about your wish to exhert your will on how people should think?
|johnsmithsno2 Posted on 12/09/2008 11:49|
You are proof that an internet search engine is a dangerous tool when left in the hands of a bigot.
|wokingmassive Posted on 12/09/2008 11:53|
I don't wish to assert my will on anyone, I am just defending my point of view that all religion is folly, and causes more harm than good.
I am not offend by the name calling, but feel that is the last resort when you can offer nothing better to defend your own point of view.
|JonMc Posted on 12/09/2008 11:59|
But if you had your way all religion would be banned. That's a long way from having a point of view (and it is your right) that religion is folly. Your wish is to impose your will on other people.
|GillZean Posted on 12/09/2008 12:11|
Do Catholics have sole ownership of the use 'big#t'?
I only ever hear it when someone is presented a decent argument against them.
|JonMc Posted on 12/09/2008 12:16|
This entire discussion is a bit like my sister's view on football. She's a practicing Catholic by the way.
People who follow football regularly spend small fortunes on a passtime that serves little good as opposed to the harm it causes - indeed some people will take part in this passtime at the expense of their health, or even the health of their families by using money which could be put to better use elsewhere.
Football is a further cause for harm with some of it's followers actively engaging in violence in defence of something as purile as a sporting organisation. Even those who do not engage in violence will become aggressive towards others who do not share in their belief for their organisation.
Football is the subject of mind control in which people will go to great lengths in making sure that their offspring follow their organisation of choice rather than that of a nearby rival organisation (in this case Sunderland or Newcastle). The indoctrination processes that some go through are in some cases outlawed by the Geneva Convention. It can divide families causing mental suffering.
To sum up - football is, at times, a cause of poverty, bigotry and hatred, indoctrination and mind control and will effect the mood of the participant for days or even weeks at a time depending on a series of sporting outcomes.
Let's ban football.
|wokingmassive Posted on 12/09/2008 13:26|
Football doesn't stand in the way of mans quest for knowledge nor help promote the spread of AIDS/HIV.
|number4 Posted on 13/09/2008 08:28|
"The HIV ban on condoms in Africa is another secular argument that has been changed to suit the tune.
The vast majority of People in Africa are non Roman Catholic, so how can the Church be blamed for the acts of people it has little or no influence over????
Simple equation is ...The Church teaches abstinence from any sexual acts outside of Marriage.
Surprisingly the Church does not say "shag all that moves but don't use a condom or else you will go to hell" "
You're wasting your time mate, anti-religous fanatics (or more accurately anti-catholic) choose to ignore the church's elaboration on the anti-condom stance. it kind of totally undermines their argument about the church being responsible for HIV in africa.
also woking massive, it's predictable how you choose to focus only on the one poster who resorted to insults to counter you're BIGOTED argument and not the numerous others who responded with points challenging enough for you to ignore.
why can't you people just learn to live and let live, YOU're the type of person that would start conflict, trying to convert everyone else to their way of thinking. and yes, i would apply that to people of faith who try to convert others aswell.