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onthemap Posted on 27/08/2008 00:53
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

Just a thought.

Chappy112 Posted on 27/08/2008 00:55
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

Liverpool aren't a proper team?

onthemap Posted on 27/08/2008 00:57
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

Remind me - how many did he score?

onthemap Posted on 27/08/2008 01:00
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

Actually thats a cheap shot - tonight no complaints.

silver Posted on 27/08/2008 01:10
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

LOL

Zelig Posted on 27/08/2008 01:41
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

You're right it was a cheap shot by a very cheap person. If you're a Boro fan I'm amazed & I don't think you'd be missed if you started "supporting" Manure or Chelski.

onthemap Posted on 27/08/2008 01:43
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

Youd reply wherever i went - too much effort.

samizdat Posted on 27/08/2008 03:18
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

My assessment of Aliadiere (see my post on the thread I started tonight titled Aliadiere) owes very little to his performance today v. Yeovil, but was based on his contribution to the team over the last 12 months. You did not comment there or here on the analysis I offered. Why am I surprised?

Timboi Posted on 27/08/2008 04:16
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

Ali is a very big part of the Gareth revolution. It's all about pace, see.....

Adi_Dem Posted on 27/08/2008 07:34
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

Didn't he score away at Arsenal And Manure last season? They not proper teams?

Also, during your DGL is better than Aliadiere debacle you counted DGL's goals in the Carling Cup to back up your argument.

skiprat Posted on 27/08/2008 08:43
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

He's scored against Liverpool in the past as well, or are they only a proper team when we play them?

I don't see why there's such an issue with him playing, he's been playing well on the right wing so far and a midfielder not scoring can't be that much of a problem with you OTM seeing as you really want O'Neil in the side?

[;)]

sasboro1 Posted on 27/08/2008 08:45
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

8 goals from over 80 league games just isnt good enough at this level. He has already lost his place upfront and i expect him to lose his place to emnes at somepoint. It is upto him to show he can score more goals otherwise he will lose his palce in the team.

funny how i got mocked last season when i suggested he would get moved to the right wing.

redbookboro1 Posted on 27/08/2008 08:46
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

Ali has had a good start to the season tbh ?.

Not your 15 goals a season player but he gets hes fair share of goals and is a team player.

privatepile75 Posted on 27/08/2008 09:08
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

His pace is a constant threat to defenders and he keeps opposition players in their own half of the pitch. It would be a brave wing back who would push on past him with our counter attack play. He's doing a good job on the wing so far this season and this will cement his place in Southgates team as he seems to like two things, pace and players who are adaptable and able to play in more than one position.

bear66 Posted on 27/08/2008 09:15
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

Been doing it against proper teams for over a season . . . . can Mido do it against a proper team is the real question?

sasboro1 Posted on 27/08/2008 09:18
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

we now have emnes who has pace too. apparently faster that ali.

Boromart Posted on 27/08/2008 09:29
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

"8 goals from over 80 league games" -- now come on sas even you must see the differance between 90 mins ad 5 mins as a sub. He has 8 goals in 48 starts, and 33 sub appearances. Not brilliant, 1 in 6ish.

Or if as Mappy prefers in looking at DGL, it's 18 career goals in 63 starts and 46 subs. 1 in 4ish

We know his scoring has to improve, but the rest of his game is spot on, workrate, pace, skill, heading if he could finish then bigger teams than Boro would have been in for him.

I was talking to a West Ham fan the other day who said "he didn't play much for us, but he was very good when he did, I wish we had signed him".

Anyway I digress, last season was his first as a prem starter, he scored 1 in 5, even though he played while not fully fit for the good of the team, and on his own up front. I reckon he could score 1 in 4 now, he has improved as a player during the last 12 months, I think he is now capable of 9 or 10 if played as a striker.

"funny how i got mocked last season when i suggested he would get moved to the right wing." -- Sas you were mocked for making that statement before you had even seen him play.

Linny Posted on 27/08/2008 09:42
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

Sas - Its very easy to use Ali's Arsenal record as a stick to beat him with but of late that goals figure keeps moving up.

For Arsenal he was a bit part player and this is no surprise as he was an untried youngster starting behind the likes of Henry, Wiltord, Kanu, Bergkamp etc.

Most of his appearences were as sub and if he did get a start he was out the next game so could get no consistancy or rhythm which is very important for a forward player.

I'm not sure what his stats are for Boro but they will be better than with his previos clubs and we can all see he is benefiting from regular football.

I don't see why some people find it hard to give the lad credit. Forget his Arsenal stats (all stats can be minipulated to fit an argument) and see (with your eyes-not just stats) how he is doing on the pitch. He brings a lot to the teams.

sasboro1 Posted on 27/08/2008 09:43
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

as expected boromart mentions subs appearances..so taking into account just starts for boro in the premier league he has 4 goals from 30 starts. just not good enough really. and thats why he is now on the right wing. in the long term i expect emnes to be ahead of him as he is a better all round players and is more of a goal threat.

so in a season when he had no competition upfront he only managed 4 goals from 30 starts. 1 in 7.5 games is terrible really.

Boromart Posted on 27/08/2008 09:46
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

Linny, this calendar year Ali's record is -- 5 goals in 15 starts and 2 sub appearances. You can't knock that record.

Like I said he has improved during the last 12 months, and he did play when unfit for the good of the team, and as a lone striker in 2007, which damages his figures. When fully fit it's a goal in 3 games.

sasboro1 Posted on 27/08/2008 09:47
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

Linny, taking out his arsenals career 1 in 7.5 games is still pretty poor

easycomeeasygo Posted on 27/08/2008 09:48
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

How can you say that about emnes when you've seen him play in 1 game?? "more of a goal threat"? how can you possibly make that judgement after 1 game sas?

Ali is class and at least the majority of boro fans can see it.

15 by christmas and i'll be collecting 70 [:D]

Boromart Posted on 27/08/2008 09:50
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

"so taking into account just starts for boro in the premier league he has 4 goals from 30 starts. just not good enough really." -- you really are manipulating your figures to suit your argument sas, knocking off a goal as a sub?

That is idiots logic, for an accurate view look at minutes played. a goal every 434 mins, it's 1 goal in 4.8 games....but like I said he has improved during the last 12 months and his record since the turn of the year is very decent.

Linny Posted on 27/08/2008 09:50
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

BM - I thought his recent record especially had improved. All a benefit of having a full season of regular football. His confidence has gone through the roof and we are seeing some very good performances from him.

sasboro1 Posted on 27/08/2008 09:52
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

sometimes you can tell a player will be better option than someone who is has already had a full season.

I said last season the future for ali would right wing and i got a lot of stick cos a few people thought he would start scoring.

Ali is not class, he is a stop gap player on the right wing and his level is probably someone like west brom. A class player is someone like downing,wheater,alves,mido,tuncay

sasboro1 Posted on 27/08/2008 09:54
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

so boromart, after dismissing sub appearances and after i point out his goals record was still poor you try to use another way to make it look like is goals record wasnt poor. just admit it is pretty poor and it will save you a season of hassle and moving the goal post

easycomeeasygo Posted on 27/08/2008 09:54
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

Sorry mate but you are very wrong!

Aliadiere is a fantastic player and will be a permanent fixture in our team for many years to come

sasboro1 Posted on 27/08/2008 09:56
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

"Sorry mate but you are very wrong!

Aliadiere is a fantastic player and will be a permanent fixture in our team for many years to come"

sorry but how you have the cheek to say that when you think he will get 15 goals this season is beyond me!

see the bigger picture, without his pace he has very little. emnes is faster anyway. he is not the long term solution on the right. he is only a stop gap there.

Boromart Posted on 27/08/2008 09:58
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

"after dismissing sub appearances and after i point out his goals record was still poor you try to use another way to make it look like is goals record wasnt poor."

Sas it's quite obvious to everyone but you that 90 mins isn't the same as 3 mins as a sub. By looking at minutes played you can get an ACCURATE view. Only the village idiot would think differently. The goalposts haven't moved sas, we are still looking for answers to exactly the same question, I have just provided you with a pair of glasses to help your poor eyesight to see the goalposts clearly...but you don't want to put the specs on out of stubbornness.

skiprat Posted on 27/08/2008 10:00
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

I couldn't give a toss about his stats, I can see with my own eyes that we are a better team with him playing, than we are without him.

Simple as that.

easycomeeasygo Posted on 27/08/2008 10:01
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

You are going to be eating some humble pie shortly sas!

He has so much more to his game than pace, he has a great first touch, good strength, fantastic movement, quick feet, great work ethic, unselfish and a great attitude!

You clearly dont know the game as well as you think sas

hewielewie Posted on 27/08/2008 10:01
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

"see the bigger picture, without his pace he has very little. emnes is faster anyway. he is not the long term solution on the right. he is only a stop gap there."

You could say the same about Emnes and his pace.

Linny Posted on 27/08/2008 10:07
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

"You are going to be eating some humble pie shortly sas!"

I don't think he will, he'll swear black is white this lad.

Stats are easily manipulated to fit an argument. I wonder is sas watches him regularly enough to form a full evaluation and his own opinion.

sasboro1 Posted on 27/08/2008 10:09
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

"You are going to be eating some humble pie shortly sas!"

dont be daft!

thing is in 12 months we wil lstill be talkign about this.

ABout 4 months ago i said he would be moved to the right wing cos he is a poor forward but got shot down cos people were saying he is not a right winger. now the same people are praising him on the right wing. People couldnt see that he was a stop gap striker because mido was injured and the rest were poor. then once we signed alves you knew southgate wasnt happy with him as a striker

sasboro1 Posted on 27/08/2008 10:15
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

linny, easycomeasygo think ali will get 15 goals this season. highly unlikely considering he has only 17 goals in his whole career.

"Stats are easily manipulated to fit an argument. I wonder is sas watches him regularly enough to form a full evaluation and his own opinion."

yeah i do, most home games and a couple of away games. He is a poor finisher and will never score enough goals. he has pace but really that is it. like i said he is good enough for someone liek west brom but not for a team like us who are lookign to push up ionto the top half. i have no problems him being a players on the bench and come in as cover like johnson.

easycomeeasygo Posted on 27/08/2008 10:17
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

I notice you failed to address any of the points i made regarding ali' ability. Well done sas [:D]

I'll leave the subject alone now as you are clearly incapable of seeing aliadieres full capabilities

Boromart Posted on 27/08/2008 10:20
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

"ABout 4 months ago i said he would be moved to the right wing" -- no sas, you said that 14 months ago before he had even played a pre-season friendly for us, before you had seen him play.....you had a pre-meditated dislike of him, you are completely objective in your view.

sasboro1 Posted on 27/08/2008 10:21
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

"He has so much more to his game than pace, he has a great first touch, good strength, fantastic movement, quick feet, great work ethic, unselfish and a great attitude!"

first touch is ok but not that special, no he doesnt have great strength,dont confuse fantastic movement with just running fast, does he back track as much as say, tuncay?, unselfish? not when he misses a sitter, great attitude? yeah and other players dont have great attitudes either.

so is he a good crosser now he is playing on the right wing?

""ABout 4 months ago i said he would be moved to the right wing" -- no sas, you said that 14 months ago before he had even played a pre-season friendly for us, before you had seen him play.....you had a pre-meditated dislike of him, you are completely objective in your view."

thats cos he wasnt a striker, pretty obvious really. proves that sometimes i know things before people on here. i dont dislike him, just that he is a squad player at best.

easycomeeasygo Posted on 27/08/2008 10:28
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

It's official, you know nothing about the game of football!!

his movement is top class and he creates space for other attacking players. It is plain to see that he has been educated at arsenal. His first touch is quality and he never lets the ball run away from him when recieving the ball. his work rate is as good as tuncays. Alves has missed a couple of sitters this season but i havent noticed you getting on his back!!

the thing is sas, you said he only has pace, i list his other qualities and you shoot them down with a boat load of bull sh1t!

sasboro1 Posted on 27/08/2008 10:31
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

"It's official, you know nothing about the game of football!!"

coming from someone who put a 50 bet on ali getting 15+ goals this season [:D]

"Alves has missed a couple of sitters this season but i havent noticed you getting on his back!!"

cos he has scored a hat trick and a few goals since arriving from holland. remember the wheater goal against spurs?

You will just have to trust me on this that ali is only a stop gap player on the right and unless mido/alves gets sold then his chances are limited upfront and tuncay is a far better option

Jerry_Brown Posted on 27/08/2008 10:32
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

I can see Wenger keeping him on because the only thing he had was pace.

easycomeeasygo Posted on 27/08/2008 10:39
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

you wont be laughing when you are handing over the money mate!

14 to go

sasboro1 Posted on 27/08/2008 10:44
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

thing is he will have to play 60 games in a season to get near 15 goals. only way that happens is if we were to reach the uefa cup final.

i'm surpised you didnt bet on wheater to get 13+ goals too.

to think mido has 3 already this season and that is only 2 short of ali's total last season

easycomeeasygo Posted on 27/08/2008 10:55
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

oh, is it the end of the season already?

i thought there were 36 league games and a possible 12-16 cup games.........

sasboro1 Posted on 27/08/2008 11:02
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

just telling you how many games he will have to play to reach 15 goals in a season

easycomeeasygo Posted on 27/08/2008 11:03
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

and you used your crystal ball to determine this??

sasboro1 Posted on 27/08/2008 11:06
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

you dont need a crystal ball really. he just doesnt have the instinct to score many goals. it is like you saying that alan smith at newcastle will get 15 goals this season

dooderooni Posted on 27/08/2008 11:09
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

Chelsea are considering paying stupid money for someone with no Premiership experience and a goal record of 1 in 4. Not saying that Robinho is going to be a flop or that he won't do well but you never know.

Personally, I like Ali and can appreciate that he adds a different dimension to our play when he's in the side. Don't underestimate his contribution just because he's not a goal machine.

easycomeeasygo Posted on 27/08/2008 11:10
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

no, it's like me saying ali will get 15 this season.
don't compare him to smith cos there is no comparison

onthemap Posted on 27/08/2008 11:13
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

Some people just have to read about it in the gazette before they'll see it.
Ali is playing because we haven't addressed the right sided problem.
It's been like this for a number of seasons, once we have someone who can do the job (and it's more than likely that Emnes or Tuncay are going to be used there) Ali will feature in the same way as Johnson does, Carling Cup matches, cover for injuries etc.

Pretty much the same way Wenger used him - you know, the fella that you keep comparing Southgate to.

sasboro1 Posted on 27/08/2008 11:15
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

"no, it's like me saying ali will get 15 this season.
don't compare him to smith cos there is no comparison"

still dont get it do you? ali has 17 goals in his career and no way is he going to get 15 in 1 season at his age now. He doesnt have the skills and ability to get many goals. it will not suddenly change over night.

sorry had to laugh at someone comparing robinho with ali, suppose it makes change to being compared to bergkamp!

whoyadoin2 Posted on 27/08/2008 11:19
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

"funny how i got mocked last season when i suggested he would get moved to the right wing"

Me too and the same for suggesting O'Neil would be moved inside.

I with you brother!!

easycomeeasygo Posted on 27/08/2008 11:21
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

the past is history and has no bearing on the future. Look, i've put my money where my mouth is and i stand by it. Come christmas when he has 8-10 goals i'll bet you are no where near as C**** sure of yourself.

mappy, i love the way you presume to know what southgate is thinking and the reason he plays ali!
anyone would think you were on the staff the way you go on

sasboro1 Posted on 27/08/2008 11:22
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

ah yes, i forgot about o'neill moving inside. when i suggested it all i heard was o'neill is crap in the centre and ali is not a right winger. where have they all gone? I did tell people that GON's favoured position was in the centre.


joseph99 Posted on 27/08/2008 11:23
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

I wonder how much Gareth would get in the market if we decided to sell him?? I suspect we might make a healthy profit that flies in the face of those who constantly de-value is contribution to a balanced team.

Do you really think Gareth bought him to score 20+ / season ffs??

onthemap Posted on 27/08/2008 11:27
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

easy
When you can point to something you've called actually coming off you'll be taken seriously.

GoN, Ali, Cardiff, Arca, Rocky, Catt, Mido ....yawn ... I know.

dooderooni Posted on 27/08/2008 11:30
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

Not comparing at all sas, merely pointing out what Chelsea are paying to buy someone who isn't an out and out striker and hasn't even played in the Premiership yet. That's the sort of signing they can afford to make and as we don't have Chelseas wealth, maybe we have to have a gamble on fringe players, like Ali, from the big clubs.

I think Ali is an extremely valuable member of the squad and deserves his start until someone comes in that can prove they can do a better job. That's a considered opinion based on what I've seen of the Boro, not on a hunch that someone we've signed is going to be brilliant.

Not even the most blinkered person can deny that he's in the side on merit can they?

Or do s(t)a(t)s pick the team now?


easycomeeasygo Posted on 27/08/2008 11:31
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

Yes mappy, you're right....infact you are always right. You know the ins and outs of everything that happens at the football club and even know what the gate is thinking!! All bow to the all knowing onthemap [:D]

onthemap Posted on 27/08/2008 11:34
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

No I got the Liverpool result wrong, I said 3-1, other than that though I was blob on.

skiprat Posted on 27/08/2008 11:36
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

You missed DGL off your list there OTM.

sasboro1 Posted on 27/08/2008 11:37
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

dooderooni, i was proved right with ali being moved to the right wing despite most on here thinking it was a daft thing to do. I bet southgate is now a genuis for doing it [;)]

i expect ali to lose his place at some point this season. of course he contributes to the team, thats cos he is on the pitch. He is better than morrison and cattermole on the right but he is not the long term solution. he is just the stop gap there.

SGATE_NOSE_BEST Posted on 27/08/2008 11:37
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

no one has posted a thread about the right wing problem this season, that is because there isnt one thanx to ali. the people who slag him off know nothing about football. i cant even be bothered to explain way as the doubters would not even listen. ali has found his position (Right Wing) and now we will all see him flourish.

onthemap Posted on 27/08/2008 11:43
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

skiprat
You mean when I said I didn't give a S*** whether Ali or DGL played against Liverpool last season?
I didn't, and as it turned out Ali got sent off if I remember rightly.

In fact I'd go so far as saying that if the choices were either of them up front now, I still wouldn't give a S*** which one of them played. Neither would score, both are useless in front of goal.

dooderooni Posted on 27/08/2008 11:47
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

This sums you up sas, "of course he contributes to the team, thats cos he is on the pitch"

What a stupid and pointless thing to say.

Regardless of what you say, Southgate likes what Ali brings to our style of play and as such he will be a big part of the squad. If this was not the case then once we had Mido, Alves and Tuncay available then he'd have been on the bench by your reckoning.

Unlike yourself, I don't believe Southgate sees everything as clear cut and simple and considers Ali an integral part of the fluid football that he's trying to get us playing.

easycomeeasygo Posted on 27/08/2008 11:47
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

Dont you realise.................oh forget it ffs!

sasboro1 Posted on 27/08/2008 11:52
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

dooderin, he is a decent player, i just dont think he is good enough for us if we are looking to be top 7 or top half. He got rave reviews on here as a forward last season but southgate realises upfront he is not good enough and moved him to the right. the reason why he got so many games upfront last season was of mido's injury and losing yakubu and alves not arriving until january. it took southgate a while to realise tuncay was a better option.

now he is on the right as a stop gap option until emnes is ready. just as GON was a stop gap on the right last season

Ali is a good squad player but not good enough to warrant a first team place. For starters as a right winger his crossing is poor.


Space_Face Posted on 27/08/2008 11:55
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

onthemap Posted on 27/08/2008 11:27 Email this Message | Reply
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team
easy
When you can point to something you've called actually coming off you'll be taken seriously.

GoN, Ali, Cardiff, Arca, Rocky, Catt, Mido ....yawn ... I know.




That's what I'm talking about Mappy.

easycomeeasygo Posted on 27/08/2008 11:57
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

he is more than good enough to start for us, more than good enough!

sasboro1 Posted on 27/08/2008 11:58
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

that depends on your ambition on where you want mfc to finish

dooderooni Posted on 27/08/2008 12:00
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

Who says he's a right winger though?

Because he started on the right last season does that mean O'Neil is a right winger or is he just someone doing a job for the team?

Ali is a right footed attacker and is being deployed as such and he's using his abilities to play that role.

In your opinion, is Mido a centre forward and if so, explain why he spends a lot of the time out wide when he's supposed to be playing through the centre?

onthemap Posted on 27/08/2008 12:00
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

sas they won't have it, it's just too painful for them to admit to, bit like when they all said Mido should be sold two weeks ago, or Johnson should replace Downing.
Apparently none of them ever said those things and we weren't anywhere near a relegation battle last season or the one before.

Truth is they convince themselves rather than admit getting it so wrong time and time again.


Boromart Posted on 27/08/2008 12:01
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

"i was proved right with ali being moved to the right wing despite most on here thinking it was a daft thing to do. I bet southgate is now a genuis for doing it " -- it doesn't change the fact you were daft fort suggesting it BEFORE he had even kicked a ball for us.

"i expect ali to lose his place at some point this season." -- wow, what an amazingy insightful calim. Considering 90% of players have spells in and out the team then that is nothing more than Mappyism - i.e. making a claim that will undoubtedly come true and misinterpretting it as proof of something entirely unrelated.

The fact is Ali is playing wide at the moment because we have suddenly found an embaressment of riches up front. That isn't proof that Southgate doesn't rate him as a striker.....in fact in the last 2 league games he has played some of hte game as a striker, which proves that Southgate DOES rate him in htat position.

dooderooni Posted on 27/08/2008 12:04
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

Were you two seperated at birth?

[:D]

sasboro1 Posted on 27/08/2008 12:05
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

No i wasnt daft, i had seen him a few times before he arrived and could see he wasnt a striker. it doesnt take a genius really.

he is a stop gap solution on the right that is all , he cant get into the strikeers role because there are 3 far better players ahead of him at the moment. We are short on the right since GON moved into the centre and southgate doesnt want to risk emnes yet

Boromart Posted on 27/08/2008 12:06
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

Mappy....


GoN - nothing has been proven, he has played 2 games central...(and arguably cost us two goals against liverpoo), Arca played better than GaryO for longer than 2 games in CM last year. Give it 10-15 games, then come and tell us how right you are. By the way, GaryO has been shifted out wide when Digard has come on, so does that mean you are wrong?

"Ali" -- integral to the team, you have proven nothing, but your lack of football knowledge.

"Cardiff" -- wow, you predicted a single home defeat. You truly are nostredameus.

"Arca" -- See GaryO
"Rocky" -- no one argued at the time that Rocky would be the long term answer to our CM

"Catt" -- premier league starter with wigan.

"Mido" -- I did see people saying he was S***e, and a big gareth southgate mistake...I think you might have benn one of those people. I always stated he was a quality player, and proven prem striker.

Boromart Posted on 27/08/2008 12:09
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

"i had seen him a few times before he arrived and could see he wasnt a striker." -- other than a couple of league cup games...where he frequently scored, then I doubt you saw very much of him at all. As you consistently point out he didn't play much for arsenal. IIRC if you add ALL his league appearances up then it adds up to about 850 mins, 9 games in 5 years.

Matt Posted on 27/08/2008 12:14
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

You're all arguing pointless arguements.

You never really fancied him to score when he played up front, that is true. But now he's on the wing so scoring isn't really his main objective, that is for alves/mido/tuncay to do with the othes chipping in.

What you should be talking about is:

Are we scoring goals? - yes
Are we playing well? - yes
Is he playing well on the right? - yes

Does it really matter if he wasn't bought or thought of as a winger? Was Zenden bought for CM? Was Poggi bought for CB?

Show me a realistic replacement for the same cash that would improve us.

onthemap Posted on 27/08/2008 12:52
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

Boromart
GoN - He's been moved inside - I argued with you and 100 others that he would. He has, end of argument.

"Ali" - Failed as a striker as I argued he would, with you and 100 others. Again end of argument

"Cardiff" Arued with you and the board that we'd be played off the park, run over in midfield, we were. You were booking your Wembley hotel based on some stats you'd just devoured.

"Arca" -- Said he was our most creative player but wouldn't be a success if paired with Rocky, you said he would. Silly really.

"Rocky" -- Told you and 100 others he would be a failure and we should get rid. He was and we did.

"Catt" -- Guess what, I said he'd never make it with us and he didn't.

"Mido" -- I was on here at the beginning of the season, thread after thread arguing he should be first name on the teamsheet, our best bet for goals, you were (as usual)remarkably quiet and waited for some stats.
Now you've got some he was always a particular favourite of yours.

Some of us understand the game sunshine, we don't need figures on 'assists' to spell out what we see.
Stick to reading the programme.

Dan_Ashcroft Posted on 27/08/2008 12:57
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

The problem with your Ali argument is that you don't see how he changes the shape and style of the team with his movement. It's not something that can be appreciated on a 16:9 pub LCD, where you only see the player on the ball.

onthemap Posted on 27/08/2008 13:01
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

And you're problem Dan is that if you ever get to see half as many live matches as I have you'll still never get further than reciting what was on the Gazette back page.

You do know Juninho left don't you, shouldn't you be back supporting Man Utd.

Dan_Ashcroft Posted on 27/08/2008 13:07
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

Very poor. I've missed just a handful of home games in the last twenty years, and certainly don't rely on the Gazette for my opinions.

Isn't 'live match' a television broadcasting term?

Boromart Posted on 27/08/2008 13:26
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

sorry for the CAPS, it will just make it easier to see what I have said and what mappy has said.

GoN - He's been moved inside - I argued with you and 100 others that he would. He has, end of argument.
TWO GAMES! ARCA LOOKED WORLD CLASS AFTER TWO GAMES, LETS SEE AFTER 10-15 GAMES.

"Ali" - Failed as a striker as I argued he would, with you and 100 others. Again end of argument
HE HAS ENDED UP PLAYING STRIKER IN BOTH OUR LEAGUE GAMES SO FAR. 3RD OR 4th CHOICE AT THE MO. BUT THERE IS LITTLE BETWEEN ANY OF THEM.

"Cardiff" Arued with you and the board that we'd be played off the park, run over in midfield, we were. You were booking your Wembley hotel based on some stats you'd just devoured.
YOU DIDN'T ARGUE IT WITH ME, END OF ARGUMENT. I WAS NERVOUS ABOUT THE GAME AND CERTAINLY NOT TAKING IT FOR GRANTED, AS GRANTUS WILL TESTIFY.

"Arca" -- Said he was our most creative player but wouldn't be a success if paired with Rocky, you said he would. Silly really.
NO I DIDN'T YOU SEE EVERYONE ELSE AS A COLLECTIVE CONSCISNESS, THERE ARE ONLY TWO POSTERS ON THIS SITE IN YOUR MIND, MAPPY AND EVERYONE ELSE.


"Rocky" -- Told you and 100 others he would be a failure and we should get rid. He was and we did.
I HAVE ALWAYS CALLED HIM ENIGMATIC, HE WAS ONE OF THE BEST WE HAD AVAILABLE LAST YEAR, SO HE PLAYED.

"Catt" -- Guess what, I said he'd never make it with us and he didn't.
YOU ARE RE-WRITING HISTORY, YOU SAID HE WOULD NEVER MAKE IT IN THE PREM, HE IS A CHAMPIONSHIP PLAYER! HE IS CURRENTLY PLAYING WELL IN HTE PREM FOR WIGAN SO YOU ARE WRONG AGAIN.

"Mido" -- I was on here at the beginning of the season, thread after thread arguing he should be first name on the teamsheet, our best bet for goals, you were (as usual)remarkably quiet and waited for some stats. Now you've got some he was always a particular favourite of yours.
I HAVE ALWAYS RATED MIDO, AND DEFENDED HIM LAST SEASON AND THIS PRE-SEASON. HE IS A QUALITY PLAYER...I DON'T RECALL YOU HAVING THAT OPINION OR VOICING IT LAST YEAR. THE PHRASE PANIC BUY SPRINGS TO MIND WHEN I THINK OF MAPPY AND HIS VIEW ON MIDO.

Some of us understand the game sunshine, we don't need figures on 'assists' to spell out what we see.
NO ASSIST FIGURES OR ANYTHING OF THE SORT, I LIKE STATS, BUT THEY NEED TO BE VIEWED SUBJECTIVELY. YOU HOWEVER IGNORE STATS...STATS ARE FACTS, AND YOU DON'T LIKE FACTS. YOUR RIDECULING OF MY LIKING FOR STATS IS JUST A DIVERSIONARY TACTIC, IT'S YOUR WAY OF AVOIDING DISCUSSING THE FACTS AT HAND....AND MAKES YOU LOOK A BIGGER FOOL.

samizdat Posted on 27/08/2008 14:06
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

I posted this last night but Onthemap made no reply. I am copying it here as this is the thread that has had legs. I think it conveys the essence of Aliadiere's value to the team. It is a team game remember.

Like onthemap I have a very simple way of assessing the Value of Aliadere, but I come to a very different conclusion. Onthemap's opinion seems to be: Aliadere is a striker, Aliadere does not score enough goals, therefore Aliadere should not be in the team. My opinion is also quite simple: when Aliadere is in the side the team plays better and scores more goals, therefore Aliadere should be in the team.

At the end of last season I posted Boro's record with and without Aliadere in the side. Our won-lost record was better when he played, and we scored more goals per game when he played. I did not keep a copy of that post and I am not prepared to do the calculations all over again. But let the doubters reflect on which games we played well in last season, and which poorly, and I am confident that checking back you will find Aliadere was on the pitch when we were playing well, and not there when we had a bad day. For example, Aliadere was suspended when we played the 2 games which were most embarrassing for a Boro fan to think about: Cardiff in the Cup and Reading at home.

I have thought about why this should be so. I readily concede that he is not a great finisher (though that was a pretty good goal he scored today!). But he has the kind of pace and close control which puts the frighteners on central defenders and pulls them out wide to defend against him, leaving gaps down the
middle for others to exploit.

In an attack minded formation I like him wide right with 2 in the middle. The best thing that has come out of moving O'Neil into the centre midfield is that it it makes it possible for Aliadiere to play wide right. Not that O'Neil will be a first choice there for long with Digard snapping at his heels. (I wonder if Onthemap has noticed that O'Neil has yet to score for Boro. I guarantee Aliadere from a wide right position will score more goals than O'Neil wherever he plays and so will Digard even if he gets a lot less playing time.

When we are in a defensive mode Aliadere should be up front, again because of his pace and control. Many were critical of his miss v Spurs when put clean through late in the game. I can understand that, but reflect for a moment. He absolutely skinned Dawson for pace. I do not think any other Boro player on the pitch has that kind of pace. (I reserve judgment about Emnes, because he looks pretty darn quick, too). Nobody else would have had that clear run on goal in the first place.

Sure Aliadiere needs to work on his finishing if he is to be the complete player, but meantime, like Gareth apparently, I would have him on my team sheet whenever he is fit.

skiprat Posted on 27/08/2008 14:13
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

I don't know why people bother anymore.

Anyone with any footballing knowledge can see that Aliadiere brings quality to the team, if that's out on the right then so be it.

He's played well since he got here. Let them see otherwise.

onthemap Posted on 27/08/2008 14:58
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

Jesus is this still going?

I love it when stattos get it wrong and have to pound the keys.
Rocky 'enigmatic' very funny. Sort of sums it up. Unable to formulate an opinion so uses 'enigamatic' to sum up a players worth.

samizdat
I could go on a long rant and anwer your post but look it's simple this. Ali isn't good enough to play as a striker, it took Southgate a while but at least now he's agreed.
It seems as if Emnes has been bought to play RM, which would indicate the general consensus is that Ali is a stopgap, otherwise why sign the new guy?
The game itself is simple, don't complicate matters like Boromart does to justify his reliance on stats.

skiprat
Wenger and now Southgate seem to agree with my version, so maybe they're wrong and I am, or you are just spouting the usual 'everything Boro is brilliant' tosh.
I know which is more likely.

samizdat Posted on 27/08/2008 15:27
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

Southgate's objective is to have a relatively small squad of players all of whom are capable of playing well at Premiership level. Competition is healthy and injuries and suspensions are inevitable during the course of a long season. I agree that Emnes who like Aliadiere can play wide right or up front has similar qualities to Aliadiere. Aliadiere is the man in possession and has proved his value to the team. Emnes has it still to prove. If Emnes proves to be better than Aliadiere which is possible, I will be delighted because that will mean he is a very, very good player and it will not necessarily mean that Aliadiere is not good enough. Emnes could well be the better finisher but Aliadiere has great control and vision. Is Emnes as good or better in all aspects? I don't know yet, but it is going to be fun finding out!

I just wish we had the same strength in the centre midfield positions as we have up front and in the wide positions. O'Neil works hard but he has very little to offer creatively and offers negligible goal scoring potential. Arca has a sweet left foot but everybody knows that now and it makes it very easy to predict where he is going to play the ball. I am excited by Digard but it's early days. I am eager to see him given more minutes against Premiership sides (by the way, I am not sure he is as fit as you need to be in this League yet: he seemed to be out of gas towards the end of last night's game!)

But on the whole, how you could not be encouraged by the start we have made to the season? Roll on Saturday.

The_same_as_before Posted on 27/08/2008 15:29
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

is mappy getting watered down?

sasboro1 Posted on 27/08/2008 15:31
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

samizat, i hope in 12 months you still show the same enthusiam while watching ali in the reserves. I think you have forgotten we were playing yeovil. at this rate you will burn yourself out in 3 weeks

The_same_as_before Posted on 27/08/2008 15:34
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

Sas, our tory realist comes to mappy's rescue, no news is bad news.

onthemap Posted on 27/08/2008 15:36
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

Thank god for raras, I mean who'd even open these threads if they were just full of normal people?

samizdat Posted on 27/08/2008 15:40
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

sasboro 1: my opinion of Aliadiere is not based on last night's game. Try reading what I said.

sasboro1 Posted on 27/08/2008 15:43
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

whats it based on then? 5 games worth of goals? honestly though in 12 months he wont be a a regular anymore. sorry if iut breaks your heart

Boromart Posted on 27/08/2008 15:52
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

"Rocky 'enigmatic' very funny. Sort of sums it up. Unable to formulate an opinion so uses 'enigamatic' to sum up a players worth."

God you really are a simpleton aren't you! You are unable to understand a quite basic statement. Rochy is enigmatic because he can be world class - Man City at home, and he can be a pub player Cardiff. He is an enigma because despite undoubted talent he can be shocking and excellant in equal measures.

On the fence? not at all, I made my mind up about him a long time ago, but unlike you I know that it isn't as black and white as a player being either S***e or brilliant with no inbetween.

How I would hate to be you in that colourless world, there are not even any greys in the world you inhabit, it's just a boring monochrome landscape. You are Binary Bill from from the planet Monosphere.

onthemap Posted on 27/08/2008 16:02
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

Being called boring by a statto, there's a first. Are you out of you're dressing gown yet?

Boromart Posted on 27/08/2008 16:09
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

I didn't call you boring (although you are), I said you are unable to see the world in any colour so the world must be boring to you. It's black and white with you, Binary Bill.

skiprat Posted on 27/08/2008 16:15
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

"skiprat
Wenger and now Southgate seem to agree with my version, so maybe they're wrong and I am, or you are just spouting the usual 'everything Boro is brilliant' tosh."

[?]

Your version is that he's S***e and shouldn't be anywhere near the first team isn't it?

How is Southgate agreeing with that?

onthemap Posted on 27/08/2008 16:16
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

Let me get this right, you're advocating grey.
Like the John Major Spitting Image puppet?

Boromart Posted on 27/08/2008 16:21
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

the john major puppet was quality craic, a concept you are completely unfamiliar with.

skiprat Posted on 27/08/2008 16:23
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

I'm trying to work out what the fook your point is, as usual.

I'll ask again, what is Southgate agreeing with you about Aliadiere?

Try and be a bit more tedious this time round.

Dibzzz Posted on 27/08/2008 17:49
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

I'd have him on the bench for Tuncay.

Mido and Alves upfront with Tuncay on the right to start, Ali for fresh legs upfront or on the wing later in the game.

GS can't play then all at once can he?

onthemap Posted on 27/08/2008 17:56
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

Dibzzz
It's nice to know that we have a few intelligent fans.
I swear a few of these will go their graves thinking Ali should have played more games at centre forward.

Skiprat
Southgate played him up front, gave him 23 odd games there and after the measly return of 5 goals has now stuck him on the right where we have a gap.
Now God only knows why you can't grasp that.

The next bit, coming to a park near you, is when Tuncay preferably, or Emnes takes that position allowing Alves and Mido (the fella you wanted us to sell two weeks ago) to start up front.
Ali then goes to the bench or better still runs about with the stiffs.

Now post what you like, you'll deny it all when it pans out anyway.

skiprat Posted on 27/08/2008 18:09
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

I'd love for you to find a post from me saying we should sell Mido.

It's not just you against the World you know, there are some things people agree with you about.

You seem to have moved the goalposts again though, Southgate apparently agree's that Aliadiere is S***e so puts him on the right wing? Fantastic logic at work there yet again.

As I've already mentioned a few times and you've conveniently ignored about 3/4 times today, goals from midfield can't bother you too much, or else you wouldn't want O'Neill there.

karembeu_ca Posted on 27/08/2008 18:19
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

what happens when Arca is fit?

has to be Arca and O'Neill then doesnt it, as GON is the answer to our CM problems. Arca and GON looks no better than Arca and Rocky.

if GON can keep playing like he did for 90 mins against Liverpool, perhaps him and Digard, but he needs to show a lot more to be considered a full-time contender for that CM spot.

onthemap Posted on 27/08/2008 18:23
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

skiprat
Do you understand me when I say that we have to play the best we have in the positions they are best suited to?

If you do then this will make sense, if you don't then I can't help you.

In centre midfield we need a player who can get from box to box, ie one who is fit enough to.
Now GoN may not score enough goals from that position but, and here's the bit you need to write down and read back, he's the most capable of doing that at the club - ie he's the best we've got for that position!

We don't have a Vieira, repeat that to yourself a few times, we don't have a Vieira.

The same applies up front, Alves and Mido are never going to be Toshack and Keegan, but here it is again, they're the best we've got in that position.

The strongest team we can put out will have Mido and Alves up front, Downing left, Tuncay or perhaps Emnes right and GoN in CM.

Now you can bitch all you like but the sooner Southgate starts playing that team the sooner we'll start doing something.

This by the way does not mean that we can ignore the defensive problems we now have.

Jonny_Ingbar Posted on 27/08/2008 18:25
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

OTM, you obviously can't have seen Tuncay play on the right for us last season, or otherwise you would be suggesting he play there now.

Tuncay has been our best attacking player in the first two games playing through the centre and you suggest moving him across to the right?

onthemap Posted on 27/08/2008 18:30
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

Jonny
Do you see Tuncay (and by the way I think he's a class act) scoring more than Alves or Mido?
I think even he would say no.

Tuncay was struggling with the pace and physicality of the Premiership last season, he could play on the right without a problem now.
Why has Emnes been signed btw if Ali has nailed the RM spot down?

Adi_Dem Posted on 27/08/2008 18:32
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

It's always the same this. Mappie posts something, some people agree and some disagree. Some time later Southgate makes some form of decision or choice and mappie adapts what he posted, uses a skewed interpretation of that decision, creates a fictional view that apparently everyone adopted in disagreement and tells us all how right he was using the Southgate decision as evidence.

All the while though he maintains that Southgate is a clown, despite him endorsing almost every decision he makes.

skiprat Posted on 27/08/2008 18:38
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

I can see what you're saying OTM and agree and disagree with parts of it.

What I don't do is call you a clown for disagreeing, or say that we should sell players that don't fit into the first team.

I'm glad I'm not manager because I don't find it as easy to pick between Mido/Alves/Tuncay up front and Ali/Emnes on the right. I've only seen Emnes in one half on the right though, but Ali is playing fine there for me at the moment, don't see any reason for that to change unless he suddenly gets injured.

If O'Neil keeps up the form he showed at Liverpool then I've got no problem saying I was wrong and that Southgate has got it right because I can change my mind and say I was wrong, you'd still berate Ali for some reason though if he kept up the form he's showed so far this season, which has been good enough.

Adi_Dem Posted on 27/08/2008 18:42
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

Surely the real point is that we have genuine options now. That's why I don't understand this monochrome approach. No-one is right or wrong here, we all just have opinions on how best to use what is clearly a good squad with good options. I am open to anything being tried and even if I don't think it will work I always hope I'm wrong.

Credit to the manager for that.

samizdat Posted on 27/08/2008 20:23
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

Why were our worst spells last season a/ when Aliadiere missed several games after he got injured against West Ham and b/ when he was suspended which included the 2 dreadful games against Cardiff and Reading? How is it that Aliadiere WAS in the side for almost all the games last season when we played well and won? How is it that the TEAM scored more goals and picked up more points when Aliadiere was in the side. I am not putting any emphasis on the Yeovil game, I am looking at last season as a whole.

If you do not believe me I invite you to think back to last season. Pick out the games you remember best as stinkers and look at the team sheet for that game. Then look at the team sheet for those games you remember that we played well. Which of those games did Aliadiere play in and which did he miss? What conclusion does your look back at those games suggest?

If Emnes proves to be better than Aliadiere as an attacking midfielder cum striker I will be delighted because I am a Boro supporter and want us to have the best possible side, but to characterise Aliadiere as a failure because he did not score a bagful of goals last season is extremely naiive. The TEAM played better when he was in the side. The TEAM did not play as well when he was not in the side. That was because Aliadiere brought more to the TEAM than his individual goal scoring whether that was up front or wide right.


Jonny_Ingbar Posted on 27/08/2008 20:30
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

The fact is we now have four top quality centre forwards, all of whom offer something different to the team and all will have a big say at various stages of the season.

I don't think its a secret that Southgate expects players to be flexible and play in a number of positions and also swap positions during the course of the game.

Ali is an excellent player, I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever about that and will have a very positive part to play this season.

HolgateCorner Posted on 27/08/2008 20:44
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

Nothing wrong with Ali, he has improved considerably now that we have given him the first team football that Arsenal couldn't. I was bothered he was a bit lightweight but he's strengthened up a lot since he first came.
He's a classic Boro signing - good pedigree but with something to prove.
If he continues the issue will be keeping hold of him rather than seeing if he can do it against a proper team. They are all proper teams in the premier league.

onthemap Posted on 27/08/2008 20:45
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

Adi
I'm afraid it doesn't work both ways this argument of yours.I'm either all black and white with fixed opinions that as yet no one has managed to get me to change, or I'm constantly changing my opinion to suit whatever happens on the pitch.
It can't be both now can it.

Fot the avoidance of doubt:

Ali - I don't rate, never have.

GoN - Had numerous arguments With you especially that he would eventually be moved into CM.

Mido - Argued constantly at the start of the season that he was our best bet for goals,and should start, again with you especially.

A handful on here agreed with me, dozens of you ridiculed me and are still desperately hoping that Ali comes right.

Then again whatever happens you'll claim I didn't say any of this stuff anyway, like last season.

samizdat Posted on 27/08/2008 22:17
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

Ali does not have to come right! He IS a good player!

He has to continue to work to improve some aspects of his game as all professionals do. He has more competition now whether as a striker or as an attacking midfielder than he had last season which is a good thing.

You ignore my central point while attacking others who share my opinion of the lad's value but did not make the case out like I have. I assume that is because you have no answer. Last season the TEAM invariably played better when Ali was in the side than when he wasn't. Is that true or not? If true, and I cannot see how you could disagree if you examine the record, then how do you explain it, if not by recognising that Ali must have been making a very positive contribution besides the handful of goals he scored himself?

I repeat I am talking about LAST SEASON, not the future. Nobody is guaranteed a place in the team, not Mido, not Alves, not O'Neil and not Aliadiere. If his form dips, if somebody else is playing consistently better he should not stay in the side. That would not alter my firm conviction which is supported by the facts, that LAST SEASON Aliadiere made a very positive contribution to what was, let's face it, at times a pretty mediocre side.

The squad is now stronger. We are beginning to have real competition for places in most positions, and much of it from young and hungry players. And that is what we need if we are to improve our League standing.

Adi_Dem Posted on 27/08/2008 22:39
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

"I'm afraid it doesn't work both ways this argument of yours.I'm either all black and white with fixed opinions that as yet no one has managed to get me to change, or I'm constantly changing my opinion to suit whatever happens on the pitch.
It can't be both now can it."

Well yes it can actually. Take your view of Aliadiere for example. He doesn't score prolifically and is therefore worthless to the team. That's pretty black and white. However, your argument that Aliadiere would keep Mido out of the side and result in Mido being sickened off has been adapted and moulded to suit the fact the Aliadiere currently isn't keeping Mido out of the side. So you see it's quite easy to do both.

Now let's look at the rest of your post:

Ali - I don't rate, never have.

Never was in any doubt. I think you're wrong. No problem with that.

GoN - Had numerous arguments With you especially that he would eventually be moved into CM.

No you didn't. I've posted this before, there is a subtle difference in that what we were arguing about was whether GON SHOULD play in CM not whether he WOULD. Either way though your claim to have been proven right is ill founded. What you are saying is that because Southgate has chosen to put him there you must be right. That's not how it works. Southgate is fallible, indeed you think he is a clown, and so on that basis I can still disagree with him and by implication you that GON shouldn't play in the centre.

Mido - Argued constantly at the start of the season that he was our best bet for goals,and should start, again with you especially.

Not true. I have never questioned Mido's talent or ability to score. In fact, I have defended him on here on numerous occasions. What I have said is that I don't think Mido and Alves will work as a front two. I don't think they should be paired up there. It should be Alves OR Mido with Tuncay OR Aliadiere. That's my view and based on last season, pre-season and this season I think Southgate agrees with me. Using your rationale, I must be right because Southgate hasn't picked them together.

A handful on here agreed with me, dozens of you ridiculed me and are still desperately hoping that Ali comes right.

No we're not mappie. For me Aliadiere IS right. I have always said and will continue to say that he will never ever be prolific. Despite that I would have him in the team. I'm not sure why you still haven't grasped that that is my view. You don't think he's very good. I do. That's it really.

TheSmogMonster Posted on 27/08/2008 23:31
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

I wish everyone would realize onthemap is a wind up!

The amount of text on his thread is baffling especially as onthemap's original argument was blown apart so effectively at the start, with the list of clubs he has scored against.



onthemap Posted on 27/08/2008 23:41
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

ok, heres another way of putting it, because of Southgates reliance on Ali last season, for whatever reason, injuries, lack of alternative players etc, we nearly went down.
All the arguing that we were comfortably placed is B*******, you know that much regardless of what you post.

Why on earth after that debacle do posters come on here (samizdat) and point to last season as a reason to keep giving Ali a starting place.

He even makes a point of repeatedly mentioning last season as if we finished top 4 or something.
Apparently we played better when Ali played, so a repeat this season is just fine and dandy.

I honestly wonder whether they've put some of your seats in facing the pitch or not.

jimmy_the_hill Posted on 28/08/2008 00:01
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

Mappie...are you seriously saying that because Southgate decided on playing Ali up front, that is the main reason for our relegation struggle?
Please tell me that is not what you're saying.

karembeu_ca Posted on 28/08/2008 00:18
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

i'm now beginning to wonder if Adi is on on this wind-up, as he simply wont learn [:D]

TheSmogMonster Posted on 28/08/2008 00:21
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

Adi doesn't really back down so, makes an easy onthemap target...

onthemap Posted on 28/08/2008 00:51
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

Yes Jimmy, the reliance on Ali up front was a major factor in why we had such a pathetic season.

Unless you're going to argue that his 5 goals were adequate for a striker that is.

offside-again Posted on 28/08/2008 01:20
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

Ali

Pro's

1. Works hard
2. Excellent pace
3. Good close control
4. Can play wide right or up front
5. Creates space for others

Con's

1. Poor finisher

So 5-1 in terms of pro's and con's. Ali is also going to keep getting better imho, because as someone rightly pointed out, he has never really played a full season, he was very stop start in terms of games at Arsenal. We all know he should score more goals though, but we are not a top four side, nor top six, and Ali would get in most teams outside the top four imho.

He's the type of player managers like, very disciplined and works very hard with an excellent technique, he strikes me as quite an intelligent player, seems he has a good football brain.

Space_Face Posted on 28/08/2008 01:46
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

I'm pretty sure onthemap is a wind up merchant. If he isn't, he must have serious confidence issues in real life.

jimmy_the_hill Posted on 28/08/2008 02:30
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

I am not going to argue about his goal scoring Mappie, I think you've argued the point to death, and also the facts are there for all to see.
But you stated that, because Southgate relied on Ali up front, he was THE REASON we were nearly relegated! Now you've changed to that he "was a major factor"!!

Give your head a wobble!!

Our struggle last season was shaped by a lot more factors than just Ali up front and you know it!!

As for trying to pin the entire relegation battle at his feet!
I'm sorry but that's just, plain and simple, idiotic.

offside-again Posted on 28/08/2008 02:44
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

You get the impression that Mappie wakes up each day and thinks " What kind of Boro related, negative style topic can I start that will get over 50 replies "

I wonder how many topics he'd start if no-one bothered replying to them in the first place ?

He could well be just an attention seeker.

The 100+ posts state of play is probably not helping the matter. :P

estuardo Posted on 28/08/2008 02:45
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

I wish onthemap would go away and leave us all alone. He seems to have serious problems taking part in an argument, all he does is repeat the same points as though this will make any difference. He is truly a profoundly irritating person.

samizdat Posted on 28/08/2008 02:48
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

Curiously ennough, Onthemap, I very nearly included in my last post that I believe Aliadiere was one of the major reasons why we did NOT go down last season.

You might also, if you had been paying attention, have noticed that I said that "LAST SEASON Aliadiere made a very positive contribution to what was, let's face it, at times a pretty mediocre side." I am under no illusions. Our performances last year were not satisfactory. That is presumably why we have improved the squad in the hope that if a key player is unavailable for a lengthy period whether that be Ali, Mido or ANOther we have players who can come in and are good enough to avoid our going into a nose dive.

It was the Reading game that finally put us in danger of relegation. Like with many of the other poor games we played Ali was not in the side that day. It must have been the poor lad's fault we played badly that day if he was not playing!!

And you still have offered no explanation of why we played much better, scored more goals and won more points when he did play, apart from the obvious one that Aliadiere is a good player who contributed a lot to the overall effectiveness of the team.

But I am going to take the advice of others. You are closed minded on this subject and further debate is clearly just a waste of my time. So that's it. Sleep well.

samizdat Posted on 28/08/2008 05:23
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

It will have no effect on Onthemap but others may be interested in the following.

On Sept 1st last year we had one of our better games, beating Birmingham at the Riverside, 2-0. We had also won 2 and drawn 1 of the previous 3 games. Ali played in all those games. In the next game v West Ham away, Ali was injured just before half time when the score was 0-0. We ended up losing 3-0. That was the start of our longest run without a win last season, an 11 game stretch. Ali's injury meant he missed the games 2 to 6 of that run (the Hammers' game being game 1). They were a draw away to Sunderland followed by 4 straight losses, including a dreadful display v Man city away. Ali was back for Game 7 (Man United away) another loss (Ali scored). Ali played in the final 4 games of this winless streak, but we did draw 3 of the 4. The win when it came was remarkably enough (one of the better memories of last season) v Arsenal, the Gunners' first defeat of the season in any competition. Ali played. He was subbed in the 81st minute before Arsenal got their late consolation goal. He played in the next game, too, an away win v Derby, not pretty against a poor side, but still 3 points. Ali picked up an injury v Birmingham on Boxing Day and missed a couple of games. They included a win at Portsmouth, a decent performance without him! He returned on Jan 5 v Bristol City in the F.A. Cup. That was the first game in our best spell, 8 games without a loss: 5 in the League, 3 in the Cup. Ali played in all 8 games. the run ended when we lost to Liverpool away and Aliadiere was sent off and suspended for 5 games. He then missed the replay v Sheff United and after that was absent for our 2 lowest points of the whole season v Reading and Cardiff in the Cup. He also missed the Villa game when we played well for a draw, and was back for the away game at the Emirates v Arsenal, one of our better games, a draw. He was in the side for the next 4 games, an unconvincing win v Derby, an unlucky defeat at Chelsea where we played very well, the draws v Man United (another good memory, despite the late equaliser) and away at Spurs. Then came another let down v Bolton. Ali played, picked up a knock but finished the game. Then he missed the Sunderland game away, another embarrassment. He was a second half sub v Portsmouth at home, a win, and of course played in the last game. the romp v Man City. None of this proves Aliadiere is a great player, but it does suggest very strongly that he is more of an asset than a liability the very opposite of his being the reason we nearly went down.

Food for thought!!

But the record also suggests he is a bit injury prone and maybe that is part of the reason GS was keen to bring in Emnes, who has a similar style to Ali, as cover, and, yes, to provide a bit of healthy competition.

Adi_Dem Posted on 28/08/2008 08:11
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

You're all mistaken. I am more than happy to back down when I think I'm wrong. I would point to my confession that I was wrong about Southgate as evidence.

You're also wrong about mappie. I don't believe him to be a wind up. I may be wrong but I think he is a Boro fan. I disagree with a lot (not all mappie) of what he says but equally he knows too much about the club not to be a Boro fan, just my view.

Now mappie turning to this argument - on what basis do you consider that our reliance on Aliadiere? Where is your evidence? You see it's a team game.

We were always going to finish 12th -14th mappie, just as I predicted. It's hardly an earth shattering guess, is it?

I also note that you have ignored my last post. Wonder why.

skiprat Posted on 28/08/2008 09:15
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

This sums it up...

"dozens of you ridiculed me and are still desperately hoping that Ali comes right."

Anyone with eyes can see that he's already come right, is playing well and will be a good player for us, there's no "hoping" about it.

Whereas you definitely are hoping that he's rubbish and a detriment to the team you "support" just so that you can try and be proven right on an internet message board,

Adi_Dem Posted on 28/08/2008 09:32
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

Dozens didn't ridicule him either. They simply disagreed with him. It's a really simple argument this. He thinks that Aliadiere doesn't score enough goals and doesn't offer anything to the team. Those who disagree concede that he doesn't score enough goals but disagree that he offers nothing else.

What he was ridiculed for was claiming that he would have DGL in the team ahead of Aliadiere.

jimmy_the_hill Posted on 28/08/2008 16:32
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

and he leaves the post for dead...again

onthemap Posted on 28/08/2008 17:12
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

It's ok we're selling Mido, don't need goals, we need tricky runners and tracker backers.
It's all sorted.

Adi_Dem Posted on 28/08/2008 17:15
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

Come on mappie, let's get you off the pot - who exactly is advocating that we sell Mido? Who thinks that is a good idea?

onthemap Posted on 28/08/2008 17:16
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

Southgate, haven't you heard?

Adi_Dem Posted on 28/08/2008 17:30
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

You know what I'm asking now stop avoiding the question.

The article below has just appeared on the official site, it doesn't sound like Gate wants him to go.


Link: Here

bear66 Posted on 28/08/2008 17:32
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

Ali will score more goals than Mido for the Boro this season ... especially if he gets his dream move to wherever

karembeu_ca Posted on 28/08/2008 18:24
Ali,lets see him do it against a proper team

LMFAO [:D]

is this still rumbling along.

samiz, he wont answer you, his character doesnt do that - thats the whole point. get a grip and ignore him.