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joseph99 Posted on 19/08/2008 08:39
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

For togetherness, bonding with fans, player unity, dressing room content, cohesion on the pitch, transfers, handling a smaller budget, tactics, passing, entertainment etc etc ... has to be Southgate.

Not sure where Mac wins.

captain5 Posted on 19/08/2008 08:41
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

On the pitch, so far.

Adi_Dem Posted on 19/08/2008 08:41
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

Your smaller budget comment is wrong.

Where McClaren wins is where it counts - success. Simple as that.

skins Posted on 19/08/2008 08:44
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

I didnt rate mcclaren but to be fair he got the luck at the right times when needed. Ugo's handball in the carling cup for example, robson seemed to get bad luck at the wrong times. I think compared to the other two southgate is better just needs to do something to prove it

Dr_Evil Posted on 19/08/2008 08:44
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

I hope Southgate can achieve what McClaren achieved success wise.

I detested McClaren, his style of football and his persona. But he brought us a cup and another final.

You cant argue with that.

joseph99 Posted on 19/08/2008 08:45
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

Net spend under Southgate has had to be smaller - "cut cloth"

Adi - you simply have never approved the Southgate appointment. Admit it you were wrong.

captain5 Posted on 19/08/2008 08:45
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

Could be really simplistic; we are here after all and see what they started with.

MIDDLESBROUGH: Schwarzer; Fleming. Southgate. Ehiogu. Cooper. Windass (Ricard 56). Ince (Capt.). Mustoe (Wilson 71). Greening. Boksic. Job.
Unused subs: Crossley (GK); Vickers. Okon.


Middlesbrough: Schwarzer; Parnaby, Riggott, Pogatetz, Arca (Davies, 46), Morrison (Johnson 84), Boateng (Capt), Rochemback (Mendieta 67), Downing, Viduka, Yakubu. Unused subs: Turnbull (gk); Maccarone.


Sea_Harrier Posted on 19/08/2008 08:46
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

Adi is right, but I want Southgate to overshadow McClaren eventually as winning something would be special.

Imagine if Southgate won us the Carling Cup again as manager, after lifting our first trophy as captain. What a double that would be.

Dr_Evil Posted on 19/08/2008 08:47
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

If he can get us regularly in the top ten, then in my eyes he will be more successful.

joseph99 Posted on 19/08/2008 08:50
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

Spot on Dr Devil. Winning a series of penalty shoot-outs should not be the yardstick used to measure success. It is consistency in the league.

The question was 'manager' - which is using tools and methodology on / off the pitch.

boro_tyke Posted on 19/08/2008 08:54
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

Here we go. We win one game and everyone]s getting carried away.

Whilst gareth Southgate is an intelligent man and will undoubtedly prove a good manager, McClaren’s achievements at this club will guarantee him a place in history. Like him or loathe him, he won us our one and ONLY major trophy, achieved out highest league finish in 31 years, put the club in an elite bracket of British clubs who have appeared in a European Club Cup Final and overall, broke the mould of mediocrity this club has been associated with for over 120 years.

McClaren has absolutely no case to answer. He was given a brief when he took the job. He fullfilled it and exceeded it. Simple as that. What Gareth does from here will always be of benefit from a club who now knows how to win.

Absolutely ridiculous thread.


Adi_Dem Posted on 19/08/2008 09:22
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

We spend (on a net basis) the same as we have done every season for the last 12 years on average.

I will be overjoyed to be wrong joseph. It's not stubbornness and you're right I have never approved of Gate. I genuinely WANT to be wrong though. I'm sorry that I have not been persuaded to change my mind by two lower mid-table finishes and bottled attempt at a quarter final.

I was against the appointment of McClaren believe it or not. He persuaded me by winning the Cup, qualifying for Europe via the league and getting us to a UEFA Cup Final.

Southgate hasn't looked remotely like emulating that yet.

When he does I'll be on here singing his praises and admitting I was wrong.

Capybara Posted on 19/08/2008 09:26
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

'A' Cup. 'The' Cup is the FA Cup.

Adi_Dem Posted on 19/08/2008 09:28
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

When discussing MFC history, the League Cup is THE Cup!!!! [;)]

Get_your_rat_out Posted on 19/08/2008 09:34
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

Southgate:

Highest League Position: 12th?
Cups: 0
Seasons In Europe: 0

Mclaren:

Highest League Posistion: 7th
Cups: 1
Seasons In Europe: 2

Yeah I can see why you think he's a better manager

joseph99 Posted on 19/08/2008 09:36
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

Does that include the salaries for the superstars???

Southagte is moving us through a difficult transition. He has had to scrap many of the inadqueate management systems he inherited (which is the point of the thread, not how many penalty shoot-outs we won) such as scouting, training methods, transfers, player management etc. If people are not able to see the changes that Southagte has made then that's a shame - a cup win/ campaign is not the only metric. Mac's ability has now been well and truly exposed. He's finished in this country as his style is primarily based on self-publication, spin all entwined by a limited knowledge.

I like the way that Southagte bloods the kids. It is not done as a consequence of a major injury crisis ( as was Mac's method). Southgate does it by testing the odd kid in the correct environment (eg not Arsenal away where he plays a team of kids). I wonder how many of those kids have been a affected by that 7-0 drubbing?? Great mangement. Not forgetting that Mac wanted to get shot of Downing!! What a manager.


Dr_Evil Posted on 19/08/2008 09:38
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

I will always stand by the fact that McClaren was lucky.


sasboro1 Posted on 19/08/2008 09:41
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

long way to go for southgate to match smac. Smac may not have done much better in the league than southgate(apart from one 7th place. Smac lost more league games than robson did). But in the cups he over performed. was it fa cup semi final in 2nd season?

to compare like for like we have to look at what smac achieved in his 3rd season and that is what southgate needs to be achieving.

I think to be better than smac he needs us to be consistently in the top half. something like for the next 3 seasons with 1 or 2 seasons where we can finish 7th.

we have been in the top flight for 10 seasons on the trot and it is time a manager established us at a comfortable top half team for a few seasons. Cant help but look at MON and think that is where we want to be. He did it in 2 seasons so dont see why we cant do it.

Difficult bit southgate has i think is holding onto key players.

speckyget Posted on 19/08/2008 09:42
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

Wahey. A good old timey SMAC out thread. Years after he's already out.

Nice bit of historical airbrushing joseph; I assume on 29.2.04 you were the only 'Boro fan' saying 'Harrumph, load of bloody fuss over winning a series of penalty shoot outs'.

captain5 Posted on 19/08/2008 09:44
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

Every manager needs some luck.

That team at Arsenal wasn't just youths played throughout, it was just focussed in the defensive area, with a back five of Jones, Parnaby, Riggott and Taylor.

There were enough senior players playing - Mendi, Rocky, Doriva, Viduka, Yak - to get them through that game.

Adi_Dem Posted on 19/08/2008 09:45
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

Since none of us have any clue what salaries have been paid it seems sensible to limit the comparison to transfer fees. If you want to include wages then I don't have a problem with agreeing that he probably does have a smaller budget.

Dismissing all of McClaren's achievements as "how many penalty shoot outs we won" I can't accept though.

Equally, ou dismiss McClaren's introduction of young players as a result of an injury crisis (factually inaccurate but we'll ignore that for now) and yet give credit to Southgate because he does it without there being such a crisis. Two quick points on that - firstly, who gave Wheater, Taylor, Downing, Johnson, Cattermole their debuts? Secondly, would Wheater (the only youngster to play regularly under Gate) have got in the team last year but for injuries to Woodgate, Huth etc?

Mac wanted to get rid of Downing? No he didn't - another case of rumour being used as a stick to beat him with.

I am sure Gate is making change, just as McClaren did when taking over from Robson. McClaren's changes resulted in tangible resulta. Southgate's hasn't yet.

At least try and be balanced in the way you deal with the facts in relation to each manager.

joseph99 Posted on 19/08/2008 09:45
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

The other factor that needs to be considered in the CCup (if this is the only metric people can see at this time) is that ManU and Arsenal did not take the competition so seriously. Now they do.

Jonny_Ingbar Posted on 19/08/2008 09:47
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

SMAC was more successful obviously, but then he had twice as long as Southgate to achieve that so its not really a fair comparison until Southgate has been here another two years.

We finished 7th under SMAC and it was an excellent season, but people make the mistake of believing thats where we finished every season - SMACS last season was very similar to the last two seasons under Southgate.

SMAC also had a bigger budget than Southgate, a lot of which was spent on salaries, some of which were obscene in size.

The true test will be in 5 to 6 years, when I have absolutely no doubt Southgate will be judged as hugely successful and SMAC will be still in the football winderness.

Adi_Dem Posted on 19/08/2008 09:48
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

It isn't the only metric as outlined above but just to summarise you want and expect us to dismiss the only Cup win in our history because McClaren was at the helm but accept your view that changes behind the scenes made by Southgate prove he is a good manager?

Keverson Posted on 19/08/2008 09:48
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

"The other factor that needs to be considered in the CCup (if this is the only metric people can see at this time) is that ManU and Arsenal were did not take the competition so seriously. Now they do"

Are you joking? Arsenal reserves got to the semis before getting walloped, and Man Utd reserves lost to Coventry last year.

petrio Posted on 19/08/2008 09:50
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

I have the utmost respect for what McClaren achieved at the Boro. He won us a cup, got us a great league position and got us to the UEFA Cup final. For a few months in 2004, he also had us playing good football and looking like a changed team that wouldn't just crumble and be 'Typical Boro'. However, I think that he got out at the right time as his vision was quite short-termist, even though he helped to develop the youth setup.
By that, I mean that he had the likes of Mendieta, Boateng, Ehiogu, Southgate, Parlour, Hasselbaink, Viduka etc, who were all coming towards the end of their usefulness and he seemed to replace like with like quite often.

Southgate has a different approach and is keen to promote youth and pace rather than relying on proven talent alone. Some of this approach may well be forced by financial constraint but I think that a lot of it is intentional. He seems to want a squad and team of players that all want to play together and have something to prove, which appears to be what he is getting now.

It has been said on here that this is the season in which Southgate should be judged. It's now his team, his squad and his philosophy, tactics and style of play should now be judged.

McClaren, thus far, is more successful but I have faith in Southgate and like what he's trying to do.

Would I swap Southgate for McClaren now? No.

Adi_Dem Posted on 19/08/2008 09:53
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

I agree with almost all of that petrio even the last sentence. McClaren did leave at the right time.

I have been saying for a while that despite my objections to his appointment, Southgate must be given 3 seasons. This is the big one for me.

joseph99 Posted on 19/08/2008 09:56
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

Mac made the neccesary changes post Robbo. The changes required did not exactly require rocket science knowledge of football. Booze culture, ageing, tired bodies and reliance on experience.

Mac did come in and make improvements. That was obvious to see prior to any cup win. However it was not based on longevity. Some of his transfers were good (mainly the ones that were experienced Premiership players) but some of his more speculative ones proved disastrous. Southgate has yet to buy a dud. DGL was a low cost gamble.

Gibbo/Robson should be applauded for the academy initiative and the quality players and cost savings this has yielded. This is what I call good management/directorship.

sasboro1 Posted on 19/08/2008 09:56
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

To be fair to smac, the squad was in a worst state when he took over than what he left. He also had to cope with "halving the wage bill" according to lamb.

at the moment southgate has achieved nothing. we finished the seoasn on 42 points which is not that good. infact that was the same points robson acheived back in 1997(without the 3 points deduction)

Southgate will deserve credit when we are over 50 points and perhaps a cup final/semi final thrown in.

I just dont fall for this giving him credit for keeping us up cos he has only 2 years experience. I want more than being a club just staying up.

Adi_Dem Posted on 19/08/2008 10:00
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

Spot on Sas that and it's not often we agree.

I'm sorry joseph but you're treating each manager differently because you don't like them.

McClaren did more for our youth set up than Robson ever did. He did as much for the long term future of the club as Southgate is now.

"The changes required did not exactly require rocket science knowledge of football."

I would be interested in what you think Southgate has changed that have required a rocket science knowledge of football.

Southgate hasn't bought a dud - except DGL and Euell!!

skiprat Posted on 19/08/2008 10:02
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

If Southgate got us to finish in 7th, that would be more of an achievement that when McClaren got us there, our league rivals have all been able to step up with their new investment and we are doing well to still be in with a good shout in this league.

Southgate definitely does the more "fan spleasing" things right but I wouldn't have him down as a better manager YET. If he continues to show the promise he has though then I think he'll surpass McClaren's achievements, but probably not at Boro.

McClaren definitely had an element of luck about his cup runs, penalty shootouts, defeats but going through on away goals etc.

captain5 Posted on 19/08/2008 10:03
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

And Ali of course...........

*runs and hides from Mappy*

Adi_Dem Posted on 19/08/2008 10:04
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

7th place is more difficult now? sorry, don't buy that at all.

elnino1 Posted on 19/08/2008 10:05
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

The sheer stupidity of some of our own "fans" never amazes me.

We were all delirious at winning a cup and UEFA final etc, but now it suits some "fans" are happy to write off that chapter in our history as lucky, instead of celebrating it, simply so they can try to drive home that their opinion is wrong.

Fans like this do not deserve the memories of what we achieved and should just fook off.

onthemap Posted on 19/08/2008 10:06
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

I'll cut through the horseS*** once more - so far:

Southgate - relegation battles
SMAC - relegation batlles, 7th in Premiership, UEFA Final, Cup Win.

Not even worthy of debate.

Adi_Dem Posted on 19/08/2008 10:08
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

It's fooking depressing when you agree with mappie but he is dead right here. We're very much on the same page here mappie.

joseph99 Posted on 19/08/2008 10:11
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

Remind me how much Euell cost? 1 season. He recognised his error/misjudgement didn't play him that much. Unlike Mendieta and Massimo. Ray Parlour FFS.

I know a couple of parents (friens) who have kids at the academy through the Mac/Southgate transition. Not once did they or the kids meet or converse with Mac. They chat with Southgate on a regular basis. Therein lies a big difference in management style and youth development.

So Aldi in your eyes - what did Mac do for the youth development apart getting shot of Proctor.

Keverson Posted on 19/08/2008 10:12
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

7th place is more difficult now?

When Portsmouth, Man City, Aston Villa, Spurs and even the likes of Fulham can spend a huge amount within one transfer window, you realise that the Premiership now is becoming more and more difficult to pick up results.

Middlesbrough don't have that kind of financial resources, so Southgates job is effectively harder than McClarens only 3 years ago. But to say one manager is better than the other is impossible to call because of the way in which the Premiership has changed in the time that Southgate took over.

redbookboro1 Posted on 19/08/2008 10:12
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

As much as i Love Southgate donot forget McClaren got us our 1st cup and European football and Uefa cup final also.

I belive Southgate will go on to be a TOP manager just hope its here at boro?.

grantus Posted on 19/08/2008 10:15
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

Southgate has the potential to be a far, far superior manager to the Dutch Master McClaren, but Southgate is far too inexperienced to suggest he is a better manager than McClaren.

Someone once said, "I'd rather be a lucky manager than a good manager".

Well, it's certainly true that McClaren had more than his fair share of luck. I contend that our UEFA Cup run was inspite of McClaren, not because of him. Ehiogu handball, Fowler penalty miss, 2 of the greatest comebacks (opposition capitulations) ever seen.

He did win us the Carling Cup and ultimately he did give us Eindhoven and some excellent results, and that can't be taken away from him.

However, from the moment that he was offered the England job, it looks as though his luck ran out. Stuffed in Eindhoven, failed miserabley with England, couldn't get a job in England and is now in backwater league, with a nomark team, being ridiculed for his silly Dutch accent.

His career and reputation as a top class manager has been destroyed and it took him just over 6 years.

Lets see where Southgate is in 4 years, I'll bet he is in a better position than McClaren is now.

Id rather be a good manager than a lucky manager, luck runs out.

Adi_Dem Posted on 19/08/2008 10:15
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

I see, so duds only count now if they are expensive? Talk about moving the goalposts.

I too have some family friends who were in the Academy then and they paint an entirely different picture. McClaren was very involved according to them.

It was one of McClaren's goals to promote from within. He changed the reserve/junior team structures and fast-tracked youth players through to the reserves. He gave debuts to Taylor, Wheater, Downing, Johnson, Cattermole, McMahon, Morrison - all of which have either made the club substantial funds or provide a big part of Southgate's current squad.

joseph99 Posted on 19/08/2008 10:16
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

Grantus - excellent post ... hats off.

Adi - good management is about financial risk/reward.

I would rather believe my contacts than yours I am afraid.

sasboro1 Posted on 19/08/2008 10:17
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

"7th place is more difficult now? sorry, don't buy that at all."

yeah, I agree..see blackburn. Dont see why we cant do what they did last season

Southgate is benefiting by the emergence of wheater and downing(under smac) . take them two out and we arnt the same team.

petrio Posted on 19/08/2008 10:18
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

I think that Onthemap is right in terms of achievement of both managers as Southgate has a way to go to match the 7th place, cup win and UEFA final that McClaren managed but I'm not so sure that McClaren would have had any more success had he stayed on. In the league, we were no better than we have been for the last two seasons under Southgate, at the end of McClaren's reign.

The thing that is setting Soutgate apart, for me, at the moment, is that he has to think about his transfers a bit more and doesn't seem to have the license to just spunk money at players in terms of transfer fees and wages, like McClaren did. It wouldn't take a genius to see that players like Hasselbaink, Viduka, Mendieta, Zenden, Juninho (again), Yakubu etc, would improve us from what we had. It does take some thought to let players like Woodgate go and replace them with a youth player, a gamble that has proven successful up to now.

Also, one other difference is that some of McClaren's gambles were a bit more expensive than Southgate's have been. £8m for Maccarone compared to next to nothing for DGL, as an example.

Adi_Dem Posted on 19/08/2008 10:19
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

So let's summarise then. Basically 7th place, Cup win, last 16 and Final in two seasons in Europe before becoming England manager is luck but two seasons finishing lower mid-table with no real Cup runs despite favourable draws is good management.

Seems fair enough.

speckyget Posted on 19/08/2008 10:22
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

"He did win us the Carling Cup and ultimately he did give us Eindhoven and some excellent results, and that can't be taken away from him."

Despite your best efforts to pass it off as luck.

joseph99 Posted on 19/08/2008 10:25
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

Let's not forget the influence of Coops, especially in particular with the rapid emergence and development of Wheater.

Downing is certainly flourishing under Southgate and this has also being recognised outside the club.

grantus Posted on 19/08/2008 10:25
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

No, real your neck in Adi and stop being childish.

I said that McClaren had his fair share of luck, but that seems to have run out. Is that hard to grasp?

McClaren delivered us success and all credit to him, it doesn't matter how he did it, but he did. Are you trying to tell me that he hasn't been found out? Why weren't top clubs knocking at his door to offer him another job?

Southgate is far too inexperienced to be judged alongside McClaren. Give him 4 years and see where he is, I'll bet though, that it's not with a club of Twenty's stature.

I have not said that Southgate is a better manager than McClaren, I've said he has the potential to be better.

Are you telling me that you can't see signs of that? If so, forget it, I'm wasting my time with you, as you are either ignorant, blinkered, or just argumentative, or something else.

skiprat Posted on 19/08/2008 10:26
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

I don't agree with Southgate being a better manager than McClaren at the moment, but I do think he'll end up with a better career when they're both getting to tell their grandkids.

"When Portsmouth, Man City, Aston Villa, Spurs and even the likes of Fulham can spend a huge amount within one transfer window, you realise that the Premiership now is becoming more and more difficult to pick up results."

You can add Sunderland and West Ham to that as well since McClaren was manager.

Yes to do a Blackburn would be brilliant, but there are a lot more teams with more resource than us at the moment and in theory should do better. McClaren was around at a time when Everton had nearly been relegated in one season and Bolton were doing well, now we have Villa back to around where they should be, Man City being able to spend nearly 20 million on one player, Spurs spending £70 million in one close season etc.

With the budget we have and the attraction of even getting players here in the first place, we do very well.

League wise from Southgate's first two seasons and McClaren's first two seasons they are almost the same anyway. We haven't gone from being some European Super Power who should have been knocking on the door of G14 asking for a membership, but an average mid-table side to an average mid-table side.

sheriff_john_bunnell Posted on 19/08/2008 10:27
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

hmmm what a poser.

a man who has taken the UEFA cup finalists to flirting with relegation for 2 seasons and humiliation in the cups and plays long ball while fooling everyone we're playing exciting attacking football.

or the fella who won us our first ever cup, got us our highest premier league finish our first ever european football and first european cup final.

you bunch of doyles.

Adi_Dem Posted on 19/08/2008 10:31
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

There you go again. Just because I disagree with you you get abusive.

In what way am I being childish?

All credit to McClaren as long as we agree that he was just lucky?

skiprat Posted on 19/08/2008 10:35
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

"a man who has taken the UEFA cup finalists to flirting with relegation for 2 seasons"

I love how people conveniently forget how poor we were in the league that season. We had fans throwing season tickets at the manager FFS!

Jonny_Ingbar Posted on 19/08/2008 10:36
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

The question was who was the BETTER manager, not the most successful.

Clearly SMAC achieved more success, this far, but there is still valid arguements for both in yerms of who has more ability.

Matt Le Tissier was a better player than Jonathan Greening, but Greening has a CL winners medal.

Success is not always a true reflection of talent.

grantus Posted on 19/08/2008 10:36
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

Don't forget that same man drove thousands of supprters away, don't forget, that same man insulted the fans too, that same man had a brand of football that was not designed to entertain and was fundamentaly cautious and debatably negative.

McClaren also came with a lot of coaching experience too, Southgate has gone straight from playing into Premiership management without a background in coaching of any level.

Comparing the two based on success is foolish, you may as well use their success as players while you're at it too.

They are currently not comparable.

All we can do is look at their achievements and their current status.

Question though, would anyone rather have Steve McClaren as the manager of Middlesbrough Football Club, right now?

sheriff_john_bunnell Posted on 19/08/2008 10:37
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

you bunch of doyles.

Adi_Dem Posted on 19/08/2008 10:38
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

What other barometer is there Jonny?

sheriff_john_bunnell Posted on 19/08/2008 10:40
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

never let success or actually achieving something affect your judgement on who is better.
doyles.

fabrizio Posted on 19/08/2008 10:41
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

McClaren 1 cup , southgate 0 . nuff said

Adi_Dem Posted on 19/08/2008 10:44
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

Still not reading anything there grantus that proves McClaren isn't the better manager. It's all subjective, personalised criticism os intangibles.

I agree though - all we can do is look at their achievements.

Jonny_Ingbar Posted on 19/08/2008 10:45
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

SJB, nice to see you appreciating and respecting an alternative opinion to yours.

The simple fact is that SMAC is the most successful manager in our history, so far that is.

But does that make him the best manager in our history?

sasboro1 Posted on 19/08/2008 10:45
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

"I love how people conveniently forget how poor we were in the league that season. We had fans throwing season tickets at the manager FFS!"

You mean the season when we got more point than last season?

grantus Posted on 19/08/2008 10:46
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

"There you go again. Just because I disagree with you you get abusive."

How am I being abusive? Jeees Adi, is your skin made of tracing paper? I don't have a problem with you disagreeing, but you are doing a mappy and only focusing on certain parts of what I said and not the whole piece, if you want to debate, then why not do it properly?

"In what way am I being childish?"

"So let's summarise then. Basically 7th place, Cup win, last 16 and Final in two seasons in Europe before becoming England manager is luck but two seasons finishing lower mid-table with no real Cup runs despite favourable draws is good management.

Seems fair enough."

the tone in that post is childish and argumentative

"All credit to McClaren as long as we agree that he was just lucky?"

Not at all, I contend that he rode his luck, you are fully entitled to disagree, go ahead, fill your boots.

I suppose you think our UEFA Cup final run was down to his masterful management and amazing tactical ability then, and nothing to do with desperate decisions forced upon him?

Fair enough.

Do you think that Steve McClaren will become the manager of a top club ever? Would you have him back at the Boro instead of Southgate?

you ignored my question on teh last thread, how about this time?

sheriff_john_bunnell Posted on 19/08/2008 10:49
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

skiprat, in the UEFA cup final year we played more games than any premier league team has in history. McClaren got us safe that year long long before southgate ever has. Go on the boro website and take a look at some of the team selections that were necessary. He quite rightfully prioritised the cups and rotated the squad well. to play that number of games without champions league money is quite an acheivement in my opinion. And we werent dire in the league all season. we were very inconsistant.
and some doyle throwing away his season ticket doesnt mean much to me.

GillZean Posted on 19/08/2008 10:51
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

Dr Evil, I make you spot on.

McClaren did seem to get the luck in the big games. In the two Euro comebacks, we only came back from the dead because he had his hand forced and had to go all out attack. MOst of his football was mind-numbingly awful, the Gate has made the team much better to watch. And the thing that really P***ed me off about SMac was that he always refered to the Boro as 'this football club' and never called us Boro, or my team, he always saw us as a stepping stone to his future humiliation and Dutch lessons.

sasboro1 Posted on 19/08/2008 10:53
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

DOnt forget the fa cup semi final we had in his 1st season. smac was an excellent cup manager but was average in the league apart from 1 season when we finished 7th. But that still does not mean southgate is a better manager. Bet under smac we wouldnt have lost to cardiff or notts county at home in the cups

sheriff_john_bunnell Posted on 19/08/2008 10:53
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

when we were sitting 5th in the league the team were booed off at half time. the support when 2 nil down against steau was embarassing. the hounding of our most sucessful manager is shameful. our fans seem to revel in glorius failure. thats why you are a bunch of doyles.

sheriff_john_bunnell Posted on 19/08/2008 10:56
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

when down against basle/steau mcclaren gambled and put on strikers for defenders.
when down against cardiff southgate took off alves.

Adi_Dem Posted on 19/08/2008 11:00
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

Having a thick skin is relevant only to whether your abuse bothered me rather than whether you were in fact abusive. You were by calling me childish and by saying categorically that unless I agreed with you I was "ignorant, blinkered, or just argumentative, or something else."

There was nothing childish about attempting to summarise your position in this discussion. Yes I over simplified it to make a point but isn't that how you defended your deluded comment?

I don't think the two comebacks of our UEFA Cup run were down to anything other than a blind roll of the dice. I think we qualified for Europe and got to the quarter finals because McClaren did a good job as a manager.

Yes, I think McClaren can become a top manager again.

I didn't ignore your question, I already answered it. No, I wouldn't have him back - not because I think Southgate is better but because the timing was right for him to leave, he did all he could for us and it would be silly to go back to him again.

Do I think that he did a better job in his tenure than Southgate has so far in his? Yes, I do. Do I think that Southgate will go on to be a better manager for us? I honestly don't know. I genuinely hope so.

joseph99 Posted on 19/08/2008 11:04
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

Special mention for Jonny Ingar for reading the question.

I wonder where the 2 of them will be in 5-10 years. I am not a big gambling man but if I had to guess who will be higher profile then that is easy. I wonder how many of the existing MFC board members would welcome him back?? If not, why???

Mac's rapid decline is indicative of the luck he was blessed with at certain crucial times whilst at MFC. Robbo had no luck, so is deemed a complete flop.

sasboro1 Posted on 19/08/2008 11:06
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

I doubt southgate will manage a team bigger than boro. He will probably know his level and become the curbishley of mfc. Just look at how quickly MON has turned villa around in 2 seasons. That is the standard he needs to aim for.

Adi_Dem Posted on 19/08/2008 11:07
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

So Jonny must have read the question because he agrees with you? Dear god.

Robbo deemed a complete flop? By who? I note that you credit Southgate with having to manage a smaller budget but fail to do so when comparing Robbo who had the biggest budget and the best possible timing to make an impact with his big signings.

BarnesBoroFC Posted on 19/08/2008 11:10
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

Cardif vs Sevilla?

sheriff_john_bunnell Posted on 19/08/2008 11:11
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

people use "luck" to back up opinions which are otherwise baseless.

joseph99 Posted on 19/08/2008 11:14
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

Jonny was able to respond to the question and actually agrees with both points. Don't have such a persecution complex. The Robbo allusion was in reference to luck - try to keep things in context. For the record I think Robbo was poor, but did make progress.

Jonny_Ingbar Posted on 19/08/2008 11:15
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

Actually I don't agree that Southgate is a better manager than SMAC, I think it's too early to judge.

I also don't agree that because was more successful then he therfore must be a better manager.

Time will tell, but my money would be on Southgate being a long term success and SMAC not.

Lefty Posted on 19/08/2008 11:17
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

I prefer Southgate, but that's not the question.

GillZean Posted on 19/08/2008 11:18
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

Robson was tactically naive, but he isn't the issue. Luck didn't really come into it for Robbo..

Adi_Dem Posted on 19/08/2008 11:18
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

You asked where "Mac wins" and I gave you the answer in my first post.

If you were restricting your question to the items listed in the first paragraph then all of those are subjective elements some of which I agree with and some of which I don't.

You alluded to the view that the only difference between Robbo and McClaren was luck, which is just nonsensical in my opinion.

joseph99 Posted on 19/08/2008 11:20
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

One moment from Heskey changes everything. Surely there's a bigger debate than 1 moment.

Adi_Dem Posted on 19/08/2008 11:22
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

That one moment was a direct result of Robson's tactical ineptitude and the epitome of his reign.

joseph99 Posted on 19/08/2008 11:24
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

That's possibly true but for it form a basis as good/bad manager is a weak response. The corollary from your comment is that Mac was never tactically naive.

onthemap Posted on 19/08/2008 11:25
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

grantus as usual, rather than sticking to facts, posts a lot of flowery speculation about what the future holds in his jasmin enhanced world.


Adi_Dem Posted on 19/08/2008 11:28
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

I never said it did form the basis of judging a good manager and a bad manager. I said that it epitomised and is therefore an excellent example of one of Robbo's biggest deficiencies.

Of course McClaren made tactical blunders. No-one is arguing otherwise and I certainly never suggested anything different.

elnino1 Posted on 19/08/2008 11:45
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren


TO REPEAT WHAT I SAID EARLIER, STILL STANDS.

The sheer stupidity of some of our own "fans" never amazes me.

We were all delirious at winning a cup and UEFA final etc, but now it suits some "fans" are happy to write off that chapter in our history as lucky, instead of celebrating it, simply so they can try to drive home that their opinion is right.

Fans like this do not deserve the memories of what we achieved and should just fook off.

joseph99 Posted on 19/08/2008 11:50
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

But we were in the final with seconds remaining. That is bad luck. He got us to our first major final too with poor tactics.

Keverson Posted on 19/08/2008 11:53
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

"He got us to our first major final too with poor tactics."

Who cares, you still made it. Why not celebrate a rare achievement rather than having a pop at the manager who was in charge?

Walter Smith reached the UEFA Cup final with good anti-football tactics. I'm sure Boro fans enjoyed their run to the final much more than Rangers did last year.

grantus Posted on 19/08/2008 11:55
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

"your deluded comment" - funny.

Try to understand this the pair of you.

Steve McClaren is the most successful manager that we have ever had.

Steve McClaren's team played mind numbing football more often than not.

Steve McClaren was responsible for some unbelievable highs.

I will always be thankful to Steve McClaren.

I don't rate Steve McClaren as a person and was always at odds with his footballing philosophy, plus I was one of the people who was glad that he became the England manager. This is because I love the Boro, not England.

Don't get me wrong (although that will be tough), I think McClaren is a decent manager, but I believe Southgate will go on to be a better manager than him.

onthemap, go bite yourself.

joseph99 Posted on 19/08/2008 12:12
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

Keverson: "He got us to our first major final too with poor tactics."

I was not taking a swipe but was using this as an example of what can be achieved with limited ability.

Adi_Dem Posted on 19/08/2008 12:24
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

grantus - I can confirm that I did understand what you were saying, it's just that we disagree on certain points and agree on others. Nothing more or less than that.

joseph - I disagree, not entirely, but you also have to say that you make your own luck. Robson should have shut up shop, made subs and time wasted his way to the win. It wasn't entirely bad luck.

HelmutSchmutz Posted on 19/08/2008 12:36
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

Too early to tell if Southgate's better or not, he's had a similar star to what McClaren did in the league, only difference was in Mac's second season we started well and then tailed off, in Gareth's we finished well after a poor start. McClaren won the Carling Cup in his third season but that was a lower mid table season as well. Progress would be top half with good football most of the time, anything else is a bonus. Compare them in a couple of years.

grantus Posted on 19/08/2008 13:00
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

Well that's fair enough Adi, I wouldn;t expect anything else, to be fair.

Let's just try to disagree in a mature and reasonable manner, shall we? [;)]

Adi_Dem Posted on 19/08/2008 13:04
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

As always Joseph, as always!

Stabilo_Boss Posted on 19/08/2008 13:12
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

"Just look at how quickly MON has turned villa around in 2 seasons. That is the standard he needs to aim for."

But Villa haven't won anything, so surely - based on the criteria established in this thread - he is a worse manager than McClaren?

Adi_Dem Posted on 19/08/2008 13:15
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

I don't think the criteria outlined on this thread is solely winning things. It is tangible success in the form of Cup wins, regular cup progression and good league positions.

McClaren wasn't a runaway success and to suggest otherwise is wrong. However, in terms of the comparison between Gate and McClaren, the latter wins it hands down.

Aside from that I don't necessarily agree that MON has turned Villa around.

bear66 Posted on 19/08/2008 13:32
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

Southgate will be remembered as a manager who wanted pace and flare in the team

He needs to keep Boro in Premiership till he 'retires' or moves to the England job

He needs to win one cup

He needs to get a top 6 Premiership place (or two)

Then, he will be on the list of greater managers

McClaren succeeded in two of the above so will be be a good but not great manager

grantus Posted on 19/08/2008 13:45
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

Come on, the comparisons are silly, I mean look at their post playing careers

McClaren

1992-1995 Hull: Youth and reserve team coach
1995-1999 Derby: Assistant manager
1999-2001 Man Utd: Assistant manager
2000-2002 England: Coach
2004-2006 England: Coach
2001-2005 Boro: Manager
2006-2007 England: Manager
2008- FC Twente: Manager

Southgate

2006- Boro: Manager


Can you see why the comparisons of their ability as managers, at this moment in time, is not that relevent?

Adi_Dem Posted on 19/08/2008 15:11
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

No. I disagree.

Thornaby_Boro Posted on 19/08/2008 17:35
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

Southgate by far. We won things despite of Smac not because of him.
If anything, the cup wins exposed his bad management. It just showed that the team had plenty of ability and could win on any given day but Smac couldn't motivate the team on a regular basis.
Southgate has a much harder job, as other clubs finances have increased whereas we are now 'cutting our cloth'.

sasboro1 Posted on 19/08/2008 17:42
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

"but Smac couldn't motivate the team on a regular basis."

is southgate any better at motivating? I think smac was a excellent motivator for cup games and some big games. not so in the run of the mill premier league games.

We were far too inconsistent in the league under smac. mainly due to playing under strength teams and lots of messing about with the team.

Dibzzz Posted on 19/08/2008 17:43
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

Not sure yet,
There you go, the Ton.

Sitrep Posted on 19/08/2008 17:46
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

Smac IS our most successful manager of all time.

Whoever says different is an extremely Silly Boy

sheriff_john_bunnell Posted on 19/08/2008 17:48
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

Ill be willing to wager someone a brand new jet pack that in 20 years McClaren will be remembered as a great like Charlton and Rioch, while southgate will fall into the colin todd bracket.

Thornaby_Boro Posted on 19/08/2008 18:03
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

Fair point Sas, we have been inconsistent under Southgate as well but I think Southgate is trying to go with young hungry players who have something to prove whereas Smac had players who seemed to think they were doing us a favour by being with us.
Smac never seemed to be bothered about that and spoke of the players 'magnificent character'. When in fact, the opposite is true.

sasboro1 Posted on 19/08/2008 18:10
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

its early season and all players will be wanting to be a first team player. See how things go in january when some players arnt getting a game and start feeling unhappy. Thats when you start trying to keep the squad happy and messing about with the team

joseph99 Posted on 19/08/2008 18:43
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

FFS the question was not based on success, the question was and still is based on managerial capability.

One important point to remember is that MFC as an entity is less ambitious now than it was 5-10 years ago and in an attempting to run it as a sustainable stand-alone business the club is settling for mid-table mediocrity. Boro's strategy is also to identify transfer targets that are young (or Young) that offer value (relatively low wages) in terms in resale so any direct comparisaon between Mac's achievements and what Gate does is difficult and not like-for-like. Southgate has had to cope with losing star players and wheel and deal to generate revenue for the club. Losing star influential players like Viduka, Yakubu, Woodgate, Boateng, Young is something Mac didn't have to cope with.

Adi_Dem Posted on 19/08/2008 19:25
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

"We won things despite of Smac not because of him"

That has been said a number of times on this board and I would like someone to justify it for once because as far as I can tell it is an absolute crock.

joseph - surely you agree that you can't divorce the barometer of success from the assessment of managerial capability?

I fundamentally disagree that the club is less ambitious and that because of that the comparisons aren't fair. That's a cop out. You forget that when McClaren joined one part of his remit, as confirmed by Lamb, was to halve the wage bill and yet stay up. To say that McClaren just had this magic pot of money upon which to build his success is simply factually inaccurate. Equally, to say that Southgate has none is ridiculous. On average as a club we have tended to spend the same on transfers over the last 12 seasons. Who broke the club's transfer record? Who chose to sell Woodgate, Young, Boateng? It wasn't a case of losing them, Southgate chose to sell them as part of a deliberate plan.

You say McClaren didn't lose star players but then you forget that he did lose Viduka and Boateng from half of the most important season in our recent history, he lost Juninho just after signing him.

grantus Posted on 20/08/2008 09:18
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

I have yet to see anyone convince me that we won things becuase of McClaren not inspite of him.

I'd love someone to do it.

But, the way I see it, the reality is he had an amazing run of good fortune. A superior manager would have done far better with our players, maybe not in the lottery of the cups, remember our great UEFA Run was during the well publicesed player revolt, that Southgate apparently resolved, not McClaren, but definately in the league.

fatharrywhite Posted on 20/08/2008 09:24
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

" the reality is he had an amazing run of good fortune"

but that's the same for a lot of clubs. Prime example is Man Utd's treble season.

Bergkamp misses last minute penalty in the FA cup semi final. They only won the league on the last game of the season and bayern munich hit the bar about 5 mins before they equalized.

The most successful season ever for them could quite easily have seen them end up with nothing.

Adi_Dem Posted on 20/08/2008 09:26
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

So it goes back to Southgate getting credit for two lower mid-table finishes and yet McClaren getting no credit for his successes with the same actually being down to luck and in spite of the manager?

Talk about double standards.

You can't see that the man that signed the players, picked the team and chose how that team played had something to do with that team's success?

onthemap Posted on 20/08/2008 09:27
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

What is it exactly that makes you incapable of accepting what has actually happened?
We won a cup
We reached a European final
We finished 7th
We were an established premiership club playing in Europe.

We now fight relegation, everything else on this thread is speculation.

Just because he looks like a manager doesn't mean he'll ever be a good one and potential is just that, potential.
As of now, today, this minute, Southgate has done nothing other than give us two relegation battles...absolutely nothing.

joseph99 Posted on 20/08/2008 09:29
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

Adi, if Mac was such a capable manager (as you see it) and wasn't based on short termism (haha) how come it has been necessary to completely overhaul the team since his departure?? Plus - if we were so brilliant in cup games why couldn't this be translated to the league where is performance is extremely ropey.

BeniBoro88 Posted on 20/08/2008 09:40
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

I think it's a bit unfair to compare both managers right at this point in time. After all, this is now Southgates 3rd season in charge now and it's a huge season for him.

Certainly the signs are encouraging. What impresses me most about what he's trying to do, is that he's bringing in young, athletic players who not only have the desire to do well (as they're yet unproven, unlike some of the mercenary has-beens previously brought in by previous managers), but they also have that bit of quality about them.

Digard looks like he'll end up being an absolute snip at 4 million, and Emnes certainly looks like he has the potential. There looks to be a great team spirit in the side, who with more experience and more time to gel you can only see improving in time.

McClaren gave us some of the best days and nights of our lives. I don't think any Boro fan could ever forget the feeling of the Carling cup final day, the pure joy of our UEFA cup run, and then also that gutting feeling of getting battered in the final.

We can only hope Southgate can emulate that or even better it. So far the signs are encouraging with the style of football we're playing and the squad we're starting to assemble. I still think we're a keeper and a midfielder short but I'm sure that will be addressed at some point.

It's a waste of time comparing either manager at this point in time, but one thing I would say, is that if we continue playing the style of football we showed towards the end of last season and the beginning of this season. I'd rather watch that every week, than some of the negative rubbish we used to watch whilst we were under McClarens management.

mattrich Posted on 20/08/2008 09:40
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

The pedestal that some of our fans are putting Southgate on is worrying, the man himself says he is still learning but reading some of these comments Sir Alex should be worried!

onthemap Posted on 20/08/2008 09:43
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

joseph
All of this talk about it being "necessary to completely overhaul the team since his departure" is just opinion, nothing more, it may be correct but it is just opinion.

The facts remain, they can't be changed, get your head around one thing, Southgate has done absolutely nothing YET.
He might become the best manager we've ever had, but might is the operative word.

grantus Posted on 20/08/2008 09:44
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

It's like shooting fish in a barrel this.

I refere the right honourable muppets to all of my previous posts.

"Steve McClaren is our most successful manager, you can't compare the two managers as McClaren had around 10 years coaching experience at this stage of his career" etc.

I still say he was lucky and was found out.

Are you seriously comparing Manchester United and Alex Ferguson with Steve McClaren? Try not taking the oner season in isolation if you are, Fergie is the most successful amanager ever.

A worse comparison for your argument could not be made. Since that season, how have United got on, how has Ferguson done? How about McClaren, how has he got on?


Link: onthemap and adi

Adi_Dem Posted on 20/08/2008 09:54
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

Who mentioned Ferguson grantus? Certainly not mappie or me. Brilliantly insightful though grant as usual.

joseph - he didn't have to completely overhaul the squad. I would argue that he left some fantastic foundations upon which to build.

No matter how much you spin it you can'thide the facts.


skiprat Posted on 20/08/2008 10:23
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

I find it absolutely incredible that certain posters have completely forgot the relegation battles and gutless 7-0 defeats McClaren also had us involved in.

grantus Posted on 20/08/2008 10:24
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

No Adi, that was fatharrywhite.

I'm not putting any spin on anything, I have simply put forward the facts. You are choosing to ignore certain facts on this and focus on half a story.

Fair enough, that's you prerogative. Comparing a 3rd year novice to a 16 year veteran, carry on.

fatharrywhite Posted on 20/08/2008 10:26
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

think the fergie bit was directed at me for having the gall to say that there was a fair amount of luck involved in that treble winning season.

Dont know why this equates to me comparing McClaren with Ferguson though, was just pointing out that in that particular season they got the rub of the green in key games.

Venables got a lot of credit for getting us to the euro semi finals yet if you look at that tournament things could have been so different. Scotland miss penalty and gazza's goal straight from it. incorrect disallowed goals for spain in the QF etc etc

grantus Posted on 20/08/2008 10:29
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

You can't see it?

Fair enough.

joseph99 Posted on 20/08/2008 11:20
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

Which foundations are you attributing to Mac now?

grantus Posted on 20/08/2008 11:36
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

He must be on about Mendieta and JFH.

TMG501 Posted on 20/08/2008 12:00
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

Grantus. I always imagine onthemap to be the one on the left.
Keeping on the subject of the topic, I think its a tad unfair to try and compare the two. If Southgate can stay at The Boro the same length of time as SMac, that will be the time to judge him

Adi_Dem Posted on 20/08/2008 13:42
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

You're not spinning anything but want us to accept that McClaren was a 16 year veteran and Gate is a naive two year novice?

The foundations are simple. We had a much more professional set up than had been left, we had a club that were winners, that had competed in Europe, we had a thriving academy, we had senior players that Gate could rely on - Schwarz, Riggott, Pogo, Huth
(transfer arranged by Mac), Boateng, Yak and Duke. We had key first team players that were given their experience by McClaren in Taylor, Wheater, Bates, McMahon, Downing, Johnson, Cattermole, Morrison and we had only a handful of pros that were on huge contracts but who had to be moved on - Maccarone, Parlour and Mendi and we'd just been in the UEAF Cup Final.
Was it really the poisoned chalice you would like to believe it was?

onthemap Posted on 20/08/2008 14:33
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

grantus
Will your world implode if you face facts?

You understand nothing about this game.

grantus Posted on 20/08/2008 15:00
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

"A naive 2 year novice"

When did I say that?

Thanks for your observation onthemap. You have yet to prove anything that I have ever said on here to be incorrect, yet I unfortunately feel the urge to put you in your place regularly.

I face the facts all the time, I live in a place that you are about as familier with as a 2 year old Nigerian is with snow. It's called reality.

Carry on.

grantus Posted on 20/08/2008 15:04
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

Remember the intial question fellas?

"For togetherness, bonding with fans, player unity, dressing room content, cohesion on the pitch, transfers, handling a smaller budget, tactics, passing, entertainment etc etc"

No, why not find something to argue about, regardless of what relevance it has, much more fun eh?

Let me refer you to my original post, shall I?

"Southgate has the potential to be a far, far superior manager to the Dutch Master McClaren, but Southgate is far too inexperienced to suggest he is a better manager than McClaren."

But on the points raised by our learned friend, Southgate does win hands down.

onthemap Posted on 20/08/2008 15:05
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

I have yet to see anyone convince me that we won things becuase of McClaren not inspite of him.

That one sentence alone shows how ignorant you are.

Do you really think someone else picked the team?

grantus Posted on 20/08/2008 15:20
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

Try reading everything I write instead of picking out little points.

At least try to understand what I'm sayin and take it in context.

sasboro1 Posted on 20/08/2008 15:31
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

do you think smac would have got us knocked out last season at home to notts county 2 years ago and last season at home to cardiff. perhaps last season we didnt progress becuase southgate was manager?

God_ Posted on 20/08/2008 15:35
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

Southgate's a better man and a better manager.

sasboro1 Posted on 20/08/2008 15:39
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

this website if good at times.

Each time a new manager is appointed..straight away he is better than the last one. i always thought rioch and jack charlton were rubbish [;)]

skiprat Posted on 20/08/2008 15:41
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

In time I believe that Southgate will appear to be a better manager than McClaren, I think he's got much more to him than McClaren for the reasons that were given in the first post.

But it's going to be hard for any English managers to better:

League Cup winner
National team manager
UEFA Finalist

Adi_Dem Posted on 20/08/2008 15:43
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

Grantus, you keep posting things like "No, why not find something to argue about, regardless of what relevance it has, much more fun eh?" and "If so, forget it, I'm wasting my time with you, as you are either ignorant, blinkered, or just argumentative, or something else" and yet have the gall to then accuse others of not accepting an alternative viewpoint!

You did write that in that first post of yours grantus. Now read the rest of that first post - you go on to tell us how lucky McClaren was and how you think that Southgate will turn out to be a better manager. That is fine, I have no problem with your view but don't pretend that you simply stuck to the criterion set out in the first post because you simply didn't.

Essentially what you are saying is that what we should do is judge the two managers but only on a set of defined parameters that does not include success. The problem with that approach is that everything else set out in the first post is subjective.

What you are saying is ignore McClaren's successes because they were down to luck and in spite of the manager but please judge Southgate's potential by reference to "togetherness, bonding with fans, player unity, dressing room content, cohesion on the pitch, transfers, handling a smaller budget, tactics, passing, entertainment etc etc" which shows that he will be superior when he gets the experience that quite clearly McClaren had with his 16 years in football.

it just doesn't work grantus.

grantus Posted on 20/08/2008 16:07
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

Yes it does.

Let's try it like this then.

How much more success did Steve McClaren have in first two seasons?

McClaren

2001-2002
League - 12th
FA Cup - Semi Final
League Cup - 3rd round

2002-2003
League - 11th
FA Cup - 3rd round
League Cup - 3rd round

Southgate

2006-2007
League - 12th
FA Cup - 6th round
League Cup - 2nd Round

2007-2008
League - 13th
FA Cup - 6th Round
League Cup - 3rd round

Not a lot in it, is there?

joseph99 Posted on 20/08/2008 16:08
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

A few flaws in your argument as far as I am concerned Adi:


"We had a much more professional set up than had been left, we had a club that were winners, that had competed in Europe, we had a thriving academy, we had senior players that Gate could rely on - Schwarz, Riggott, Pogo, Huth"

There was a booze culture within the club under Robbo so discipline was improved - so I can agree. That was objective number 1. Gibson and Robson were the partnership when the academy was developed. Mac was in a position to reap the fruit from such an initiative (whether or not he did by design or desperation is highly debateable)Schwartzer was signed by Robbo and at times wanted to leave the club. Huth has been injured too much so arguably not a value signing. His transfers in general were hit and miss - many of his signings had no or little resale value.

"We had key first team players that were given their experience by McClaren in Taylor, Wheater, Bates, McMahon, Downing, Johnson, Cattermole, Morrison .... " (design or forced upon him??)

"... and we had only a handful of pros that were on huge contracts but who had to be moved on - Maccarone, Parlour and Mendi and we'd just been in the UEAF Cup Final."

Again, his signings were hit and miss. You also forget about the clean sweep Southagte took of the background staff.

Poisoned chalice?? I think Southgate uncharacteristically took a swipe at the Mac regime as did Gibson and Lamb (calling him wreckless with money) . Beswick - what a fooking joke.



skiprat Posted on 20/08/2008 16:08
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

Just wondering how David Moyes is figured in relation to McClaren by others?

I think he's a much better manager personally but he only ticks the league box that McClaren is getting judged on in relation to Southgate.

Adi_Dem Posted on 20/08/2008 17:47
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

Now you're talking grantus - that is the much better comparison. There is nothing between them whatsoever. On that basis I would completely agree that they have both performed similarly well (or badly depending on your view) in their first two seasons. it's what I've been saying for a while now - Gate deserves to have his third season. It's the most important one for any manager because it is their team. I hope he exceed McClaren. My only point throughout this thread has been that you can go on about fan bonding, dressing room content etc until you're blue in the face but the only thing that matters is success. At this minute in time therefore you simply cannot say that Gate is the better manager of the two.

joseph - I'll reply paragraph by paragraph if I may:

I have it on extremely good authority that Robbo wanted to scrap the youth set up and did not consider it part of his plans. McClaren made it plain at his initial press conference and regularly thereafter that he wanted us to "grow our own trees". I therefore disagree strongly with you when you say "(whether or not he did by design or desperation is highly debateable)". There is no debate as far as I am concerned. You say he wasted money and that there was no resale value and yet our biggest transfer in was one of his signings.

I think his signings were far more hit than miss. I also don't see the relevance of the backroom staff comment - wouldn't any new manager do that?

I'm not sure how you can possibly make a judgement of Beswick when you didn't see what he actually did. he was good enough for Man Utd (in their treble season). As for the swipes taken by the club - Lamb, Gibson and McClaren didn't get on. That much is fact but if they thought so little of him then why get him to sign a new 5 year deal?

onthemap Posted on 20/08/2008 17:54
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

The ones arguing that Southgate is a better manager are doing so because they think he's a nicer guy.
It's ridiculous really.

joseph99 Posted on 20/08/2008 22:28
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

onethemap: stick to slagging off Aliadiare.

Adi: Using the "I have it on good authority' line does not work. I also have it on good authority also.

Alves was expensive but he seems much better value than Massimo.

Clearly, you do not see any benefits in what Southagte is doing and fail to recognise any individual achievments, independent of Mac, thus far. This idea of course flies in the face of what Gibson thinks. I appreciate you have no faith in Southgate but do you not think he has not made any difference since Mac left or will all his future success/failures be down to the brilliance of Mac in your eyes.

Interesting to note that you have not once alluded to Mac's excellent tactical nous, often coughed up by you in the past, that he was not able to cough up during his brief period as England manager.

I assume you are fairly long in the tooth from a business acumen standpoint. If so you should know that any 5year deal offered formed part of a Gibson masterstroke in terms of revenue generation via compensation from the FA.

onthemap Posted on 21/08/2008 00:28
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

joseph
Which part of the following is untrue?
In his first two seasons as a Premiership manager Gareth Southgate steered Middlesbrough through two relegation battles.

None - get your coat.

Tuncaythefunguy Posted on 21/08/2008 01:02
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

Having read all of the posts above i think the point is not who is a better manager but who is the most liked.

The original message reads: Southgate - better Manager than McClaren? I would say most definatly at this moment in time it is McClaren.

May i add that i like Southgate far more than Steve McClaren because of one simple fact.

That fact is that Gareth Southgate has took this club to his heart and believes he is in it to make Middlesbrough Football Club a top team and push them as far as he can take them and has no eyes for any other club.

Steve McClaren was in it for himself. He wanted the Newcastle United Job and the Leeds United job and in the end he wanted the England job. These are facts which have come from the board.

McClaren may have wanted to do whats best for him but that must mean he has to be sucsessfull, which he was with Middlesbrough Football Club.

onthemap Posted on 21/08/2008 01:06
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

"Having read all of the posts above i think the point is not who is a better manager but who is the most liked."

As I said earlier, you're basing you're opinions on who is a nicer guy.

Do you think Fergie is a nice guy?

Pathetic, utterly pathetic.


Gillandi Posted on 21/08/2008 01:13
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

As an admirer of the intelligent and multi-lingual i'd go with McClaren at this present moment in time.

However, I think Southgate will be managing a top 4 club in 10 years time, or a top 2 club in another country and Stevie will be shouting at the traffic in Humberside.

Tuncaythefunguy Posted on 21/08/2008 01:16
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

onthemap. Im not saying that. Im reading it and thats what others seem to be going on about. read below that line and u will find my opinions.

AND I AM CORRECT IN WHAT I SAY.

Another point is i think McClaren introduced all the youngsters but he certainly took them out for a older player when they got fit again

Southgate keeps them in and others have to earn there place back

Im right on that point too.

onthemap Posted on 21/08/2008 01:19
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

Yes Gillandi - " I think" being the operative phrase
I think you're wrong but I don't think our opinion is really relevent - just look at the facts.

On 2nd tho.....no just carry on it'll give me more to quote when this all goes belly up.

Candies and babies.

Gillandi Posted on 21/08/2008 01:25
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

onthemap - Do you remember telling us we were buying Rob Hulse last transfer window and Southgate was going long ball to stave off the relegation threat?


I don't think I need to say anymore than that.

[:D]

Adi_Dem Posted on 21/08/2008 07:46
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

The bare facts are that as we sit today Southgate is not as good a manager as McClaren proved to be. Everything I have read is based on subjective hope and whilst I too have that hope - I genuinely want Southgate to prove to be the better manager and take us back into Europe - it just isn't the case today.

Joseph - I'd like to answer your specific points:

Clearly, you do not see any benefits in what Southagte is doing and fail to recognise any individual achievments, independent of Mac, thus far. This idea of course flies in the face of what Gibson thinks. I appreciate you have no faith in Southgate but do you not think he has not made any difference since Mac left or will all his future success/failures be down to the brilliance of Mac in your eyes.

You're wrong. I do see the benefits in what Southgate is trying to do. I give him praise when I think it is merited and criticise when appropriate. This has led to the likes of mappie accusing me of sitting on the fence, of hedging my bets. It isn't, I am just not entirely convinced by him yet. I am very open to being though. When he was first appointed I was very critical of the appointment (as was grantus by the way) but I remember distinctly one of my posts saying that I will get behind him because I have faith in Gibson's judgement. Any future success will be Southgate's doing. I'm not sure why you would think I would argue otherwise. He will benefit from the blooding of the likes of Wheater and Downing but then McClaren benefitted from the name that MFC had built up on the back of Robson.

Interesting to note that you have not once alluded to Mac's excellent tactical nous, often coughed up by you in the past, that he was not able to cough up during his brief period as England manager.

I don't understand what you're on about. I have raised his tactical ability above. I do believe he was tactically sound but he often made blunders like most managers. England didn't lose matches because of tactical mistakes in my view.

I assume you are fairly long in the tooth from a business acumen standpoint. If so you should know that any 5year deal offered formed part of a Gibson masterstroke in terms of revenue generation via compensation from the FA.

Wrong. It would be an incredibly risky strategy. In any event, the contract discussions began the season before. The deal was agreed before Christmas in the season it was signed. Nothing to do with the England job. Don't forget similar contracts were handed to all of the backroom staff as well.

joseph99 Posted on 21/08/2008 10:44
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

Adi,

this is now becoming exhausted so we should agree to disagree on many aspects of this debate. I will summarise:

McClaren is the most successful manager in MFC's history by virtue of the club's success gained whilst he was manager. It is impossible to dissect achievement, capability and potential - and comparing ability like-for-like manager v manager - it is just too subjective. The only quantitative metric is achievement at the time - this I accept.

There is a grey bit here though and that is how much credit is ascribed to the manager for any success. This is the crux of the debate and that is why many fans use the word luck and we won something in spite of him. These suspicians/ opinions dominated the views of many fans then and more so now. You believe that all the success was down to him - fair enough I can live with that.

The doubts over McClaren gnawed at many even at a very early stage for some, for various reasons. Let's try to be less subjective though. I would say that if he was as good as you believe then surely he will use that capability elsewhere - thus far he has not impressed in fact he has gone dramatically south. Many predicted this downfall for good reason.

For me Southgate is destined for big things. My view is that he is much more capable due by virtue of some of the impressive management decisions/actions made to date: he has made many mistakes though. Hopefully Southgate will achieve big things at MFC but as have pointed out it is more likely at a bigger club.

onthemap Posted on 21/08/2008 10:48
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

joseph
I'll summarise for you, you seem to be in need of clarity.

Southgates done nothing yet.
Smac eventually did.

All the rest is speculation.

grantus Posted on 21/08/2008 11:05
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

Adi

"therefore you simply cannot say that Gate is the better manager of the two."

I never said that though.

I've seen enough of Southgate after two years, for me to believe he will go on to become a better manager than Steve McClaren, after his first two years.


onthemap,

"Which part of the following is untrue?
In his first two seasons as a Premiership manager Gareth Southgate steered Middlesbrough through two relegation battles.

None - get your coat."

You know that what your are saying there is quite rightly not completely true. Let's see shall we?

onthemap Posted on 21/08/2008 11:13
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

"quite rightly not completely true"
Cue big flowery report from our resident football correspondent, around issues such as "two matches to go and we were safe" or some other tosh.

grantus Posted on 21/08/2008 11:20
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

you really are an angry, bitter little troll.

Where are you playing panto this year?

Adi_Dem Posted on 21/08/2008 13:49
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

Joseph - I can go along with almost everything you have just posted there. We just disagree on a few things and that is absolutely how it should be. This has been one of the most enjoyable debates for a while actually.

I'd just like to clarify a couple of points though if I may. Firstly, I don't think all of our success was down to McClaren and don't think I've ever suggested that. I just don't think you can dismiss it all as him being lucky or it being in spite of him. Secondly, it may surprise you to know that I predicted McClaren's downfall on this board as soon as he left for England. i said it was the ultimate poisoned chalice and that it was a huge mistake on his part to take the job at such a young age. I fel he would fail miserably and he has. Equally, I think Capello will fail. I genuinely don't think (and I posted this at the time) that England will ever be successful for all of the reasons being discussed today following yet another international debacle.

grantus - I never suggested that you did claim Southgate was the better manager, but that is what this thread is about which is why I referred to it.

grantus Posted on 21/08/2008 14:53
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

ok, check.

joseph99 Posted on 21/08/2008 15:37
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

Adi - fair enough - reassuringly good and healthy debate!!

mappy: This is my clarity.

Bear in mind that football support is very personal. Opinions differ enormously as do levels of understanding and perception. The only black and white is success, but at Boro we cannot normmaly use that metric. We have to look at other areas, such as on-field committment, team balance, discipline levels, transfers and on-field performances. Gibbo seems smug at the moment and that seems to reflect my feelings; and I am a cynic.

sasboro1 Posted on 21/08/2008 15:42
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

southgate is just another curbishley at charlton. keep a club up but never really do much. keep the wage bill down and sell on players for a profit.

Tuncaythefunguy Posted on 21/08/2008 22:14
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

sasboro1. That statement you make is complete rubbish. Southgate wants us to be competing in the top 6 of the Premiership. He has stated this and has used his new scouting system to reflect this and try and buy young pacey players with excellent Technique.

Alan Curbishly always stated before every season that keep Charlton in the prem was a achievement in itself. He used to buy lower league players and turn em into average prem players.

mettialloy Posted on 21/08/2008 23:34
Southgate - better Manager than McClaren

southgates got a long way to go before you can say that