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onthemap Posted on 31/07/2008 14:52
Weaker squad than last year

George, Rocky, Catt and Arnie out and unknowns in.
Didn't rate Rocky or Catt though,but I don't think Emnes will make it, it's all down to Alves and Mido both getting into double figures or we have another relegation battle.

Sad but true.

easycomeeasygo Posted on 31/07/2008 14:53
Weaker squad than last year

"i dont think emnes will make it"


what a complete tw@t

grantus Posted on 31/07/2008 14:54
Weaker squad than last year

Scraping the barrel today, mappie.

SouthStandSY Posted on 31/07/2008 14:54
Weaker squad than last year

Can`t argue with any of that apart from Rocky & the dismissal of Emnes b/f he`s played for real of course! ;-)....

It all boils down to what we can do b/f Aug 31st, as long as it`s not James bloody Harper!.....

captain5 Posted on 31/07/2008 14:54
Weaker squad than last year

You need to compare notes with Brick.

At least he's moderately, weakly amusing.

Critical_Bill Posted on 31/07/2008 14:55
Weaker squad than last year

He's right about our squad being weaker though.

rubber_soles Posted on 31/07/2008 14:55
Weaker squad than last year

You make Howard Wilkinson look like a tactical genius.

Libbins Posted on 31/07/2008 14:55
Weaker squad than last year

weaker in numbers, stronger in mentality [;)]

SouthStandSY Posted on 31/07/2008 14:56
Weaker squad than last year

Yeah coz mentality scores much more heavily than ability - DOH! ;-(......

grantus Posted on 31/07/2008 14:57
Weaker squad than last year

and when did numbers = ability?

DOH! [;)]

Libbins Posted on 31/07/2008 14:59
Weaker squad than last year

The right mentality wins you games.
Are you stupid?

onthemap Posted on 31/07/2008 14:59
Weaker squad than last year

Having the opinion that Emnes won't make it is ridiculous according to the raras, yet saying he's the answer to our right midfield based on the same performances is perfectly acceptable.
It's an opinion just like yours is.

The squad being weaker is an undisputable fact.

easycomeeasygo Posted on 31/07/2008 15:01
Weaker squad than last year

i havent seen anyone post that he is the answer. how could we possibly know when we havent seen him play you doom mongering idiot!!!

grantus Posted on 31/07/2008 15:03
Weaker squad than last year

"The squad being weaker is an undisputable fact."

[:D]

That's more like it. Complete and utter nonsense is never far away when you're involved.

Ultra relaible, that's onthemap.

skiprat Posted on 31/07/2008 15:03
Weaker squad than last year

You didn't even know who Emnes was 3 weeks ago.

I'd be more prepared to give him the benefit of doubt after seeing him play before coming to any judgement.

What is "make it" anyway? Another one of your extremely vague statements so that if he doesn't propel us into the Champions League, you can tell us he was S***e all along, even if he turns out to be a handy player?

SouthStandSY Posted on 31/07/2008 15:05
Weaker squad than last year

The right mentality can only win you games IF you are good enough, the jury`s out on this squad, so mentality may not be enough on it`s own & what evidence do we have of a superior mentality?! - Only what`s being spun by the likes of `Gate, coz it`s about all he`s gotta cling to, do you not reckon the rest of the prem would tell you they`ve got an improved mentality, alongside their shiny new signings - DOH!......

grantus Posted on 31/07/2008 15:09
Weaker squad than last year

The right mentality can only win you games IF you are good enough - I give you...Greece, European Champions 2004.

SouthStandSY Posted on 31/07/2008 15:12
Weaker squad than last year

That was a one off fluke & it`d be dangerous to build your model or hopes around that particular story, they had a good system & stuck to it - it worked, BUT they came nowhere near repeating it & it wont happen again!.....

onthemap Posted on 31/07/2008 15:13
Weaker squad than last year

Greece had no pressure on them in 2004, it's a little different when you're hovering around the relegation trapdoor.

Why am I arguing with Grantus?

So some of you actually believe the squad is stronger, I suppose I should expect that really but you just keep on saying the most ludicrous things.

easycomeeasygo Posted on 31/07/2008 15:15
Weaker squad than last year

i'd say the squad is slightly weaker in the central midfield area, fair enough.

but then follows the emnes statement and you just look like a c0ck

teesste Posted on 31/07/2008 15:16
Weaker squad than last year

out of interest why don't you think Emnes will make it??

And what are you basing this on?

superstu Posted on 31/07/2008 15:16
Weaker squad than last year

At the start of last season, our options up front were Aliadiere, Tuncay, Mido and Lee Dong Gook. Now we've replaced Lee Dong Gook with Afonso Alves. So up front we're stronger than last year.

Out of the other 4 going out, Boateng and Schwarzer couldn't last forever. They were going to need replacing sooner or later.

Cattermole didn't play often last year anyway - replaced by Josh Walker from the academy.

OTM what do you define as a relegation battle? Last year when you looked at the points, all of the teams in the bottom half of the table could have been relegated. What position would Boro have to stay above for you to not class the season as a relegation battle? Top Half?

JohnGalt Posted on 31/07/2008 15:16
Weaker squad than last year

I have to agree we are much weaker than last season.

We might have a great season, but this season we have far too many risks. The only players we can rely on to play to a good standard week in week out for most of the season are Young, Wheater, Downing, O'Neil, and Alves. The rest cant be relyed on to be fit, and others havent guaranteed there premiership class

easycomeeasygo Posted on 31/07/2008 15:18
Weaker squad than last year

pogi, huth, tuncay???

seasoned internationals john

joebonano Posted on 31/07/2008 15:19
Weaker squad than last year

Total and utter load of b******.

grantus Posted on 31/07/2008 15:21
Weaker squad than last year

People generally aren't saying that the squad is stronger, but to say that the squad being weaker is a fact, is an idiotic statement.

As for the Greece comment, your caveat had not been added by that point. Had it?

Anyway, I look forward to another season of predicatble nonsense from onthemap.

Now that, my friends, is what you call a fact.

onthemap Posted on 31/07/2008 15:23
Weaker squad than last year

Suoperstu
Whether it's uncomfortable or not we hovered around the relegation trapdoor virtually all season, the season before was much the same. A couple of wins at the end doesn't mean it didn't happen.

I don't think Emnes is the answer to our RM problem, he's a striker for me and a lightweight one at that, I can't see him playing before Alves Mido, Tuncay or Downing and so I reckon his chances will be limited.

John Galt has it about right, we've 4 or 5 who can be relied on week in week out, I'd add Tuncay to that list but unfortunately Southgate can't fit him into the side.

The sale of Scwartzer has seriously weakened the side even if you ignore all the other ins and outs.

grantus Posted on 31/07/2008 15:24
Weaker squad than last year

We will need to be at least in the top 8 and 5 victories away from 6th bottom for onthemap to admit that we are not currently in a relegation battle.

Seems fair.

Space_Face Posted on 31/07/2008 15:24
Weaker squad than last year

How much do you know of Emnes to have decided where he best plays??

I agree that our squad is weaker.

Brick_Tamland Posted on 31/07/2008 15:25
Weaker squad than last year

Disagreements all add to the fun. Never seen Emnes play nor have I any idea how GS intends to use him. Digard sounds promising but friendlies are one thing and the Premiership another. Again, have to wait and see.

The rest of the squad will be better for having been together a year, but that might not count for much if we're still messing about with formations well into the season.

I think we'll score more and concede more and finish in roughly the same position, I think a little higher than last year.

easycomeeasygo Posted on 31/07/2008 15:25
Weaker squad than last year

you unkowledgable, idiotic f*ck muppett.

stop f*cking talking ya thick B******

JohnGalt Posted on 31/07/2008 15:27
Weaker squad than last year

Tuncay I will give you because I understand people rate him but I have went off him so thats just a difference of apperance.

Huth you cant rely on he has played less than twentyfive times in two seasons. He is the most risky player in the squad. Pogatetz shines because of Huth if it wasnt for Huth being at the club more people would realise how injury prone he is he always tends to miss a big chunk of the season.

onthemap Posted on 31/07/2008 15:28
Weaker squad than last year

Oh good an idiot.(eaasycomething)

easycomeeasygo Posted on 31/07/2008 15:29
Weaker squad than last year

eh? that pogi comment makes no sense

onthemap Posted on 31/07/2008 15:30
Weaker squad than last year

Pog will be at left back - again!

joebonano Posted on 31/07/2008 15:30
Weaker squad than last year

Forwards- Last year we started with an unfit Mido Ali Tuncay Dong gook hutchinson Craddock.
This year we have a fit Mido Tuncay fully settled in Ali Alves Emnes craddock.
Looks a damn sight better than 12 months ago to me.

Boromart Posted on 31/07/2008 15:31
Weaker squad than last year

notice how mappy always uses the weak phrase 'relegation battle' rather than a strong quantifiable prediction like 'will be relegated'.

Anyone within the bottom 8 is only 6 or 7 points of the bottom and could be classed as in a relegation battle, anyone above that who had a good late run were in a relegation battle most of the season.

Show some bottle onthemap, if you think we will be relegated ay it.

easycomeeasygo Posted on 31/07/2008 15:31
Weaker squad than last year

otm, the bile that eminates from keyboard is incomprehensible! you spew the most speculative and ill informed opinions i have ever witnessed. you have no credibility nor do your comments.

in a nutshell shut the f*ck up until you have something sensible to post

onthemap Posted on 31/07/2008 15:34
Weaker squad than last year

Mido and Alves are the only two recognised goalscorers we have. Talk all you like about the others but none of them are goalscorers.

Midfield - We've replaced George nothing more.

Defence - No change, Pog still being played out of position.

GK - Hes gone - and the reserve keeper is now first choice.

Hence weaker.

onthemap Posted on 31/07/2008 15:36
Weaker squad than last year

easycome
Thanks mate but I'll post whst I want mate. It might make you mad but I don't give a S***.

The prediction is the same correct prediction as last season - We'll stay up but only just.

JohnGalt Posted on 31/07/2008 15:37
Weaker squad than last year

Pogatetz comment makes no sense? He is injury prone its just because Huth takes injury prone to another level that we dont see it anymore.

Boromart Posted on 31/07/2008 15:38
Weaker squad than last year

ok from last season

GK - weaker certainly in experience, we've lost our number one...however many on here didn't rate him, most felt he was past his best. It will be interesting to see how Turnbull does, some have written him off because he had one bad game for Cardiff, or a poor season at 19 year old for a poor Crewe.

Defence - Wheater is more experienced, Huth is fit, Taylor is fit again. It looked very strong especially since we don't seem to have any defenders who want away.

Midfield - Emnes - who knows, looks decent. Digard - again looks good. Lost Rochy, Catt and Boat. Mappy has slagged them 3 players off constantly but I still feel we are weaker. I expect another signing though. A godd one and we could be on a par.

Strikers - Alves is in and acclimatised. Ali and Tuncay have their first season under there belts and Mido is fit. Our strikeforce is a hundred times better than this time last year.

Overall I'm confident we will score more goals than last season, and that the defence will do fine. Midfield and keeper is a bit of an unknown.

barneyblair Posted on 31/07/2008 15:39
Weaker squad than last year

I do think we are weaker in the sense we still need to buy a good keeper and another centre midfielder! if not our squad is smaller and weaker its true

joebonano Posted on 31/07/2008 15:45
Weaker squad than last year

A good centre midfielder and an experienced goalie[ even if on loan] and I would be more than happy

Boromart Posted on 31/07/2008 15:46
Weaker squad than last year

"Mido and Alves are the only two recognised goalscorers we have. Talk all you like about the others but none of them are goalscorers."

How many recognised goalscorers do these teams have?

Man City - 0-1 - Jo is unproven, Banjani at a push
Villa - 2 Carew, Agbon
Blackburn - 2 - Santa Cruz, Benni
Everton - 2 - Yak and Cahill
Fulham - 1 - Johnson
Pompey - 1 - Defoe
Sunderland - 0


superstu Posted on 31/07/2008 15:48
Weaker squad than last year

I half agree with you OTM.

"Whether it's uncomfortable or not we hovered around the relegation trapdoor virtually all season" I think what you'd call a relegation battle, I'd think of as midtable-mediocraty. You're right we wont be flying in to European spots at the top end of the table. And for most of the season it will be possible for us to get dragged in to the relegation battle - as it will for more than half the teams in the division. But at this point Im not at all worried about us going down.

"I don't think Emnes is the answer to our RM problem" I don't think hes the answer either. TBH I don't think he'll play an awful lot. I read an interview with Gareth months ago where he was saying he'd like to start buying young players, having them around the squad for a year or two, getting used to how he wants them to play, and then going in to the team. I think Emnes is going to be the first example of this technique.

"The sale of Scwartzer has seriously weakened the side even if you ignore all the other ins and outs." I agree with that.

"Mido and Alves are the only two recognised goalscorers we have" Thats true - but I don't really see it as a problem. Two years ago the only recognised goalscorers were Viduka and Yakubu. Two Years earlier it was Viduka and Hasslebaink. Look at other teams in the league. How many recognised goalscorers up front do Arsenal have?

onthemap Posted on 31/07/2008 15:49
Weaker squad than last year

Boromart

"GK - weaker certainly in experience"...etc etc , there's nothing more to add, we're weaker in that position (or would anyone have played Turnbull for the last two seasons?)

"Defence - Wheater is more experienced" true", "Huth is fit" - for now, "Taylor is fit" (you mean rubbish) again, hence Pog will be playing out of position there again


"Midfield - Emnes - who knows, looks decent"
(long shot). "Digard - again looks good" (agreed but he's some boots to fill, George was underated.
"Lost Rochy, Catt and Boat. Mappy has slagged them 3 players off constantly" (never slagged Boat - ever) "but I still feel we are weaker". Never?

"I expect another signing though. A godd one and we could be on a par." None and we are weaker, which is the point of the thread..

Strikers - Alves should be a success. Ali and Tuncay have their first season under there belts (so what they're not goalscorers)and Mido is fit (and needs to hit double figures).

"Our strikeforce is a hundred times better than this time last year " Can't see the difference apart from Mido is fit?

"Overall I'm confident we will score more goals than last season, and that the defence will do fine.
Midfield and keeper is a bit of an unknown."

Not as if those positions matter though eh.

Jesus.

Boromart Posted on 31/07/2008 15:51
Weaker squad than last year

"I read an interview with Gareth months ago where he was saying he'd like to start buying young players, having them around the squad for a year or two" -- The Arsene Wenger theory on management!

onthemap Posted on 31/07/2008 15:53
Weaker squad than last year

"The Arsene Wenger theory on management!"

Is this the same fella that shipped Ali out after having him around the squad for 5 years?



whoyadoin2 Posted on 31/07/2008 15:53
Weaker squad than last year

What a load of S***e. We had NO strikers the start of last season.

Boromart Posted on 31/07/2008 15:55
Weaker squad than last year

You only read the bits you want to and ignore everything else don't you? Yes Midfield and GK is unknown but Defence and forward is better try a holistic approach to analysis, you wiull start to see the big picture then.

"Can't see the difference apart from Mido is fit?" -- so players don't need time to adjust to being a prem player??? and we signed Alves in August but kept him hidden for 6 months?

Were you not banging on about how crap our attack was last year.....but we scored one less goal than the season before, even though we had series injury problems with the strikers.


superstu Posted on 31/07/2008 15:55
Weaker squad than last year

"Can't see the difference apart from Mido is fit?"

Alves > LDG. How many games last year did we create more chances than the team we were playing, only to not score the goals to finish them off, and to have them come back at us. You even said yourself Aliadiere and Tuncay aren't goalscorers! Remember the Blackburn, Everton away games? Home games against Sunderland, Newcastle, West Ham, etc. I think we'll be much stronger for having two goalscoring centre forwards.

PinkPonce Posted on 31/07/2008 15:56
Weaker squad than last year

I only have one thing to say with regards to this thread at the moment and it is in response to the following statement from onthemap.

"Defence - No change, Pog still being played out of position."

Please read both the attached link, and those following this line, regarding the purchase of the austrian LEFT BACK.

http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11680_2335602,00.html

"The left back played in both legs and did enough to convince McClaren that he could cut it in The Premiership."

http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11680_2338209,00.html

"The left back, who can also play in the middle, is currently with Spartak Moscow on loan from Bayer Leverkusen"

http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11680_2338944,00.html

"The full back has been on loan with Spartak Moscow but is known to be interested in pursuing his career in England."

http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11680_2339556,00.html

"Boro boss Steve McClaren has held a long-standing interest in the full back, "

http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11680_2340289,00.html

Above article attached in the link

"The highly-rated left back has signed a five-year deal and will officially become a Boro player on July 1."

Go on Mappy - Move the goalposts again.


Link: Out of position?

easycomeeasygo Posted on 31/07/2008 15:58
Weaker squad than last year

how do you know emnes isn't good enough, same applies to turnbull??

boateng was a fantastic player but is well past his best.

ali and tuncay are more than capable of getting in to double figures as is downing.

wheater has a years experience and is a threat in the opposing box. huth, fingers crossed will stay fit and there is no way taylor is "rubbish".

given that it was tuncay and alves first season in the premier league the extra year or so makes them more equipt for the premier league.

why so f*cking pessimistic all the time??

i'll tell you why, cos your life is sh1t and you moan about everything from the weather, the neighbours, your job to your supposed football team!!!

onthemap Posted on 31/07/2008 15:59
Weaker squad than last year

Pinl
I take it you think Pog is a left back because it says so in the papers, his best position is centre back.

It's laughable to suggest otherwise, why am I surprised you think this?

superstu Posted on 31/07/2008 15:59
Weaker squad than last year

"The Arsene Wenger theory on management!"
Would seem to be the best theory for us to look at. The most successful team we have any chance of emulating. We can't spend the way Liverpool, Man Utd, Chelsea, Tottenham, West Ham, Sunderland all do. We should be looking at teams doing well without spending a fortune - Arsenal, Everton, Blackburn.

"Is this the same fella that shipped Ali out after having him around the squad for 5 years?"
Not relevant. We're suggesting Gareth should be imitating Wenger's style of introducing a player to the team, not whether they rate the same players. And in case, Wenger stressed the point that he did rate Aliadiere, and would have liked to keep him.

onthemap Posted on 31/07/2008 16:01
Weaker squad than last year

easycome
"ali and tuncay are more than capable of getting in to double figures as is downing."

If I read that correctly you think Ali (the 5 goals a decade man) will get double figures this season (even though he won't play half as many games as last season).

You should unplug your pc now, you're clearly too stupid to be on here.

PinkPonce Posted on 31/07/2008 16:01
Weaker squad than last year

Mappy - Why can you not realise that Pogatetz was signed as a left back replacement for Franck Queudrue.

Is it SO difficult. We've been here before and you were wrong then. You are still wrong now.

He is a - and I quote "left back, who can also play in the middle".

FACT.

Don't try to move the goal posts by saying its not his best position.

Your original argument is that he is being played out of position at left back. This completely dismisses your opinion.

Another FACT. We look much stronger with him at LB, than AT or JG.

PS - All of this is for free - I suggest you take as much as you can from me.

grantus Posted on 31/07/2008 16:04
Weaker squad than last year

"Is this the same fella that shipped Ali out after having him around the squad for 5 years?"

Arsene Wenger tried to persuade Ali to stay at Arsenal. FACT!

Boromart Posted on 31/07/2008 16:05
Weaker squad than last year

"He is a super player and I do not want to sell him.....He has three more years on his contract and I hope he will see that out." - Arsene Wenger January 2007.





Link: Wenger Quote

easycomeeasygo Posted on 31/07/2008 16:05
Weaker squad than last year

[:D] coming from you that is very very very rich indeed!!!

i've got 50 with sas that says he'll get 15 this season and when he does i'll be on here to rub your negative nose in it

superstu Posted on 31/07/2008 16:06
Weaker squad than last year

OTM.

Again we agree but have a different way of looking at things. I'd say Pogatetz's best position is in the centre of defence also. At left back I don't think he's a defensive liability, just not as good at supporting Downing, and the attack when he needs to.

"Defence - No change, Pog still being played out of position." Keep up, Mappy. The club have got a young lad from New Zealand on trial. He's a left back. This would indicate that we are looking for a left back. Don't take my word for it, heres what Mr Southgate had to say:
"At the moment we have several great young players but we are probably lacking a bit of experience. That's why it will be good to take a look at Tony."

easycomeeasygo Posted on 31/07/2008 16:08
Weaker squad than last year

great link boromart, well done mate

onthemap Posted on 31/07/2008 16:09
Weaker squad than last year

It's like Christmas, Pink and Grantus lining up to be shot down.

Pink
He nay have been signed to replace Franc, but his best position has turned out to be as a centre back. No debate there, apart from Southgate has to play someone out of position and Pog is the one who will play anywhere.

Grantus
Wenger tried to persuade Ali to stay, but wouldn't go as far as saying "yes you can play in the Premiership rather than just the early rounds of the Carling Cup"
Wanted him as a squad player to rest his real players for the priorities he had, nothing more.
FACT.

Stabilo_Boss Posted on 31/07/2008 16:10
Weaker squad than last year

Re Greece "That was a one off fluke & it`d be dangerous to build your model or hopes around that particular story" apart from when Denmark did it 3 tournaments previous.

People have been on here spouting S*** about our imminent relegation for 5 years now and it's never looked likely. OTM knows full well we won't go down next this season, hence his reluctance to say it but I guess he needs his 'controversy-fix' for the day. Clutching at straws a bit though isn't it?

Boromart Posted on 31/07/2008 16:11
Weaker squad than last year

"It's like Christmas, Pink and Grantus lining up to be shot down." -- in other words he will duck away from the facts I present to him.

onthemap Posted on 31/07/2008 16:11
Weaker squad than last year

Stu
I think we agree, Pog or Taylor are just not the answer for the LB slot, hence the trialist.

JohnGalt Posted on 31/07/2008 16:12
Weaker squad than last year

i think digard will be a hit and huth will have a good season but was only trying to say its a risky decision.

easycomeeasygo Posted on 31/07/2008 16:12
Weaker squad than last year

read boromarts link otm. you said wenger never rated ali but those comments totally contradict that. besides i'll have arsenals squad players any day of the week!

plus you are stating pog is being played out of position when he quite clearly isn't. just admit it before you dig yourself deeper

Critical_Bill Posted on 31/07/2008 16:13
Weaker squad than last year

Pogatetz was not signed as Queudrue's replacement. Franck was here for another year after Pogatetz signed.

PinkPonce Posted on 31/07/2008 16:13
Weaker squad than last year

Onthemap - You're lining yourself up for a fall here... a dramatic one.

You said:

"Defence - No change, Pog still being played out of position."

The argument would be that you are calling for him to be played OUT OF POSITION at CENTRE BACK.

He is a left back and was signed as a left back - as you have just agreed with the line "He nay have been signed to replace Franc" (At left back)

Hence when Southgate plays him left back, he is not out of position.

Tell me if you need me to type this out in a simpler format.

And remember, its all free baby.

Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 31/07/2008 16:14
Weaker squad than last year

'it's all down to Alves and Mido both getting into double figures or we have another relegation battle'

That goes without saying, year in, year out. If your strikers don't score enough, such as last year, you're in for a long struggle.


onthemap Posted on 31/07/2008 16:14
Weaker squad than last year

Boromart
If it's in the Sun you consider it a fact.

Boromart Posted on 31/07/2008 16:15
Weaker squad than last year

onthemap, It wasn't int he sun, I saw him say it on sky sports. whats your point, other than I'm right and your wrong? AGAIN!

easycomeeasygo Posted on 31/07/2008 16:17
Weaker squad than last year

he just cannot admit when he is wrong. sad little man

Boromart Posted on 31/07/2008 16:19
Weaker squad than last year

he will be S***e at cricket, because he just can't bat straight.

superstu Posted on 31/07/2008 16:20
Weaker squad than last year

"Stu
I think we agree, Pog or Taylor are just not the answer for the LB slot, hence the trialist."

I rate Taylor. I think he will make a very good left-back for us. I like his attitude. I prefer Pogatetz as a centre-back. But if the back four is Pogatetz-Wheater-Huth-Young, Im confident we won't concede. Certainly not harbouring any worries about relegation. However I do agree at the moment I don't think we have a specialist left-back, whos at the top of their game. So it is a position we could improve. I just can't see it being a major problem if we don't.

grantus Posted on 31/07/2008 16:22
Weaker squad than last year

"Wanted him as a squad player to rest his real players for the priorities he had, nothing more.
FACT."

Prove it, where is your evidence to back that up?

I'll tell you where, it doesn't exist, because as usual, you are trying to sell your own opinion as fact.

I wish I was keeping count onthemap. Yet again, your nonsense is exposed.

I'm done.

PinkPonce Posted on 31/07/2008 16:22
Weaker squad than last year

What mappy is doing is basically the same as claiming Tuncay is a Goalkeeper, after the super performance in the Euros in which he kept a clean sheet.

Well, alomst [:D]

PinkPonce Posted on 31/07/2008 16:24
Weaker squad than last year

Grantus - SO am I mate...

I'm sick of putting him in his place to be honest...

What next?

onthemap Posted on 31/07/2008 16:26
Weaker squad than last year

Pink answer what Bill said.

onthemap Posted on 31/07/2008 16:28
Weaker squad than last year

Grantus give it 6 weeks and you and Pink will be on here saying you actually argued this point and not me.....again.

Tell me do you think Ali was a success at Arsenal?

easycomeeasygo Posted on 31/07/2008 16:30
Weaker squad than last year

i'll answer that one. pogi was brought in to challenge for the first choice lb spot. the fact he went straight into the first team does suggest that effectively he was bought to replace franck

superstu Posted on 31/07/2008 16:31
Weaker squad than last year

Don't worry PP, I'll take this one.

"Pogatetz was not signed as Queudrue's replacement. Franck was here for another year after Pogatetz signed."

Didn't Pog play all year ahead of Queudrue though? And didn't Queudrue say the reason he wanted to leave was to get first team football?

easycomeeasygo Posted on 31/07/2008 16:31
Weaker squad than last year

whether he was a success or not is totally irrelevant

Critical_Bill Posted on 31/07/2008 16:32
Weaker squad than last year

In a case of outrageous after-the-eventism when Poga looked a better centre-back than full-back, McClaren claimed he'd signed him with the intention of him establishing himself in the centre of defence.

superstu Posted on 31/07/2008 16:32
Weaker squad than last year

easycomeeasygo, spot on. It's not relevant. Ray Parlour did well at Arsenal, does that make his time at Boro a success OTM?

easycomeeasygo Posted on 31/07/2008 16:33
Weaker squad than last year

i dont remember that bill, can you prove it?

onthemap Posted on 31/07/2008 16:34
Weaker squad than last year

easycome
That's not the question, was Ali a success at Arsenal or did he fail?

PinkPonce Posted on 31/07/2008 16:34
Weaker squad than last year

Mappy it appears others have beat me to the answering of Bills question.

So I take it you now agree with me that Pog is not being played out of position?

Or are you gonna avoid it again in the hope it goes away.

I'm your worst nightmare Mappy... you always come unstuck against the ponce...

I'll let you win one day.

Boromart Posted on 31/07/2008 16:34
Weaker squad than last year

"Tell me do you think Ali was a success at Arsenal?" -- moving the goalpost again mappy. Thats why you lack any credibility.

onthemap Posted on 31/07/2008 16:35
Weaker squad than last year

No Pink, Pog is a centre back, it's blindingly obvious to anyone who understands the game.

Was Ali a success at Arsenal?

easycomeeasygo Posted on 31/07/2008 16:36
Weaker squad than last year

he was neither a success nor a failure.

he had some of the best centre forwards in world football ahead of him for much of his time there and he was a young boy. do you think a young alves would've got his game in front of henry, bergkamp and co?

superstu Posted on 31/07/2008 16:38
Weaker squad than last year

"In a case of outrageous after-the-eventism when Poga looked a better centre-back than full-back, McClaren claimed he'd signed him with the intention of him establishing himself in the centre of defence."

Thats funny, McClaren wasn't the manager any more when Pog was moved to the centre of defence. That was a Southgate master-stroke. Also its, again, totally irrelevant. As you specify this claim was made after Pogatetz was playing well in the centre. What do you expect McClaren to say? "Oh I never thought of that?"

Stabilo_Boss Posted on 31/07/2008 16:38
Weaker squad than last year

"Tell me do you think Ali was a success at Arsenal?"

No, neither was Bentley or Sidwell or Upson. Does that make them bad players? No, just makes them not Champions League quality.

Boromart Posted on 31/07/2008 16:38
Weaker squad than last year

David Bentley was a failure at Arsenal, within 3 years of leaving he was a 15 million pound player.

The biggest failure of Ali's time at Arsenal was that he took too long to recognise that he wasn't going to be given the chance to stake his claim. They would always spend 10s of million on new strikers like Van Persie and Adebayor.

onthemap Posted on 31/07/2008 16:40
Weaker squad than last year

Seems an uncomfortable question Boromart and easy thing.

Fact is he was given every opportunity and ended up leaving after Wenger assessed him as good enough for the Carling Cup and nothing more.

We signed him and as it happens Wenger was spot on, he's a non scoring forward, and is only good enough to be a squad player in the Premiership.
That Wenger is the one you point to when defending Southgates policies, yet on this matter he got it wrong (naturally).

Critical_Bill Posted on 31/07/2008 16:40
Weaker squad than last year

Pogatetz wasn't Queudrue's replacement. Queudrue often lined-up as one of three centre-backs when Pogatetz was full back. Pogatetz actually played in front of Queudrue on the left of midfield on a couple of occasions.
Queudrue left because he needed a new challenge. Or if you believe the other tales...

easycomeeasygo Posted on 31/07/2008 16:43
Weaker squad than last year

given every opportunity?

he played 29 games in 7 years!

thats just over 4 games a year.

he had world class forwards blocking his route into the first team! none of our centre forwards would get a game for arsenal, alves included so stop with your sh1t

Boromart Posted on 31/07/2008 16:43
Weaker squad than last year

"Seems an uncomfortable question Boromart and easy thing." -- not uncomfortable, just irrelevant...but what do I expect if came from your keyboard!

Anyway back to the thread itself. I'll bet you that Ali will have a better goals to game ratio than last season. Which is about the squads relative strength to last season.

I will bet you 20 that Ali will show an improved scoring form from last year, goals per minute, league only.

He will have a proper partner when he plays and he is fitter and stronger after a year in the first team. You think this is both irrelevant and that he is a 'non-goalscoring forward'. So put your money up front.

superstu Posted on 31/07/2008 16:44
Weaker squad than last year

Where has anyone said Wenger was wrong? Do you honestly think we could currently sign an Arsenal striker who plays regularly for them? And you claim other people don't understand about football...

easycomeeasygo Posted on 31/07/2008 16:46
Weaker squad than last year

and i answered your totally irrelevant question, so how was it uncomfortable??

PinkPonce Posted on 31/07/2008 16:46
Weaker squad than last year

Mappy - like i've said previously, I understand the game much better than you....

How you can make these judgements from your arm chair or the pub in guisborough is beyond me.

Even though your opinions are fundamentally incorrect, I would still respect them if you actually watched the games. You don't and i, therefore, don't respect your opinions.

Pogatetz is a "left back, who can also play in the middle"

FACT.

Some more links for you Mappy, son.

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/players/profile?id=14648&&cc=5739

"A left-back by trade, he was recruited to provide competition for Frenchman Franck Queudrue, although he can also play in central defence."

This one is my favourite - an interview with him...

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/the-premier-league-interview-emanuel-pogatetz-767306.html

"the left-back cum centre-half"

"Still, last season, switching from left-back to the centre of defence to cover for injured colleagues, Pogatetz established himself as a major player for Middlesbrough, and as a major crowd favourite"


I really feel like i've said enough... I should be charged with GBH with intent after this...



Link: Independant Interview.

grantus Posted on 31/07/2008 16:50
Weaker squad than last year

"Grantus give it 6 weeks and you and Pink will be on here saying you actually argued this point and not me.....again.

Tell me do you think Ali was a success at Arsenal?"

Ok, one more, just for you fella.

My point, if you remember, is that you are taking subjective statements and pawning them off as fact.

When you're pushed to give your statements some credibility, you cannot. When given statements of fact to counter your arguments, you change the argument.

You can put that in your little black book and use it whenver you like, you don't have to wait 6 weeks.

Do I think that the squad is weaker than last season?

Strikeforce - no
Defence - no
Midfield - smaller in numbers, but weaker, impossible to say as we've yet to see them play in a competitive match.
Goalkeeper - I'll reserve my judgement on players that have never been given a chance until they have been given a chance.

Sitting on the fence? Not at all, I'm realistic. I'll tell you this much, I don't think we'll do much worse than the start of last season.

I suspect that this season we'll do better against the lower clubs, but not as well against the top 4.


Aliadiere, a success at Arsenal or not? How many strikers would have broken into that team? Ultimately he didn't, so he was not a success, but this needs to be qualified with his competition. Henry, Bergkamp, Van Persie, Adebayor.

Does this make him a bad player?

Certainly not.

easycomeeasygo Posted on 31/07/2008 16:51
Weaker squad than last year

mappy's gone very quiet!

admission of defeat perhaps??

onthemap Posted on 31/07/2008 16:52
Weaker squad than last year

Pink just to make this absolutely clear, I tend to read everyones posts on here, even when I disagree completely with the viewpoint - Boromart for instance.

Your posts I simply skip over, they're just nonsense, you don't get the game at all.

joebonano Posted on 31/07/2008 16:53
Weaker squad than last year

Map could you remind me who scored our match winning goals at home to Fulham and Wigan

onthemap Posted on 31/07/2008 16:54
Weaker squad than last year

Grantus
Try to say yes or no.
Was he a success at Arsenal? It's not a trick question.

easycomeeasygo Posted on 31/07/2008 16:54
Weaker squad than last year

he's googling as we speak [:D]

superstu Posted on 31/07/2008 16:55
Weaker squad than last year

NO OTM, he wasn't a success at Arsenal. Have a question back at you, does that have any bearing on how much of a success he can be for Middlesbrough?

onthemap Posted on 31/07/2008 16:56
Weaker squad than last year

Grantus.....

easycomeeasygo Posted on 31/07/2008 16:56
Weaker squad than last year

okay mappy!

simple yes or no

would any of our current strikers get a game for arsenal??

grantus Posted on 31/07/2008 16:57
Weaker squad than last year

Try reading my last post for your answer.

If he was a "success" at Arsenal, do you think he'd currently be plying his trade at the Boro?

Yes or no will do.

Will Boro get relegated this season?

Yes or no will do.

Will Southgate get sacked this season?

Yes or no will do.

Will you ever attempt to see the positive angle when making your comments?

Yes or no will do.

PinkPonce Posted on 31/07/2008 16:58
Weaker squad than last year

Mappy, I'll take that comment in your last post as a resounding victory. You avoid them because you can't face being proven wrong by a puff with silly hair and stupid dress sense...

You have had your pants down you fat basttard... That is me done for the day.

Out of position my arse. You're an embarrassment.

onthemap Posted on 31/07/2008 16:58
Weaker squad than last year

superstu
Well given that Wenger is ten times the manager that Southgate is I'd say yes it has a bearing.
Southgate apparently is a top notch manager according to this lot on here - never done anything but there you go.

Now given that Wenger couldn't do a thing with him, why on earth do you think Southgate will.

grantus Posted on 31/07/2008 16:58
Weaker squad than last year

just in case you can't find it through all than bile you're sat in, let me help you.

"he was not a success"


onthemap....

Critical_Bill Posted on 31/07/2008 16:59
Weaker squad than last year

Im relieved grantus only goes to one game a season. Imagine how much more of a know-it-all he'd be if he went to more.

easycomeeasygo Posted on 31/07/2008 16:59
Weaker squad than last year

[:D]

good on ya pp

Boromart Posted on 31/07/2008 17:00
Weaker squad than last year

Wenger couldn't do a thing with Matty Upson....who went on to win a couple of England caps under Steve Bruce. Does that mean Bruce is the best manager on the planet? yes or no answer!

easycomeeasygo Posted on 31/07/2008 17:02
Weaker squad than last year

read the link mappy ffs

wenger; "he is a tremendous player and i dont want him to leave"

you say wenger is brilliant, well he has been quoted as saying gs is a tremendous manager with a brilliant future ahead of him. now surely wenger knows more than you otm???

grantus Posted on 31/07/2008 17:03
Weaker squad than last year

Bill, you know you love me.

I just like a decent debate. If it means teaching someone how to have a decent debate, then I'm willing to invest the time.

[;)]

Critical_Bill Posted on 31/07/2008 17:03
Weaker squad than last year

Seriously, McClaren did say that he signed Pogatetz with the centre-back position in mind.

PinkPonce Posted on 31/07/2008 17:03
Weaker squad than last year

Bill - Onthemap goes to none and look how much of a no it all he thinks he is...

Seriously everyone, lets leave this thread now because i'm starting to feel sorry for him.

sunset_over_ici Posted on 31/07/2008 17:06
Weaker squad than last year

'Thats funny, McClaren wasn't the manager any more when Pog was moved to the centre of defence.'

I don't think that's true: I'm fairly sure that Pog played centre back away against Sunderland in McClaren's last season.

As far as I'm concerned Pog is a very good centre back but not good at left back. I suppose you'd say he was being played out of his best position.

PinkPonce Posted on 31/07/2008 17:07
Weaker squad than last year

I'm not saying he didn't say that Bill.

What i am responding to is that Mappy is claiming that Pog is being played out of position at Left Back.

Mclaren signed "The left back, who can also play in the middle" with that in mind.

But he is still not being played out of position when appearing at left back?

Agree?

Don't let mappys consistant shifting of the goal posts confuse you.

grantus Posted on 31/07/2008 17:07
Weaker squad than last year

It should be said that we started to pick up results and defend a lot better when he came back into the side at left back last season.

My questions, onthemap....

Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 31/07/2008 17:08
Weaker squad than last year

The great Bill Nicholson gave us Souness for a song and he turned out to be the best midfield player in the country.

Can the same happen with our shot shy striker?

Critical_Bill Posted on 31/07/2008 17:09
Weaker squad than last year

grantus, in another world you'd be welcome to come and sit with me at a match.
In this world though, your straw hat would kick-off my hay fever.

onthemap Posted on 31/07/2008 17:09
Weaker squad than last year

Grantus- here's you're last post.Copied in all it's glory.

"Grantus give it 6 weeks and you and Pink will be on here saying you actually argued this point and not me.....again.

Tell me do you think Ali was a success at Arsenal?"

Ok, one more, just for you fella.

My point, if you remember, is that you are taking subjective statements and pawning them off as fact.

When you're pushed to give your statements some credibility, you cannot. When given statements of fact to counter your arguments, you change the argument.

You can put that in your little black book and use it whenver you like, you don't have to wait 6 weeks.

Do I think that the squad is weaker than last season?

Strikeforce - no
Defence - no
Midfield - smaller in numbers, but weaker, impossible to say as we've yet to see them play in a competitive match.
Goalkeeper - I'll reserve my judgement on players that have never been given a chance until they have been given a chance.

Sitting on the fence? Not at all, I'm realistic. I'll tell you this much, I don't think we'll do much worse than the start of last season.

I suspect that this season we'll do better against the lower clubs, but not as well against the top 4.


Aliadiere, a success at Arsenal or not? How many strikers would have broken into that team? Ultimately he didn't, so he was not a success, but this needs to be qualified with his competition. Henry, Bergkamp, Van Persie, Adebayor.

Does this make him a bad player?

Certainly not.


Now where in all of that tripe do you answer whether he was a success or not?

I'll ask again, do you think Ali was a success at Arsenal - yes or no?

I'm not trying to trip you up, you're more than capable of that yourself.
Just answer.

grantus Posted on 31/07/2008 17:10
Weaker squad than last year

I'll take that as a compliment, Bill.

I might even frame it.

Critical_Bill Posted on 31/07/2008 17:11
Weaker squad than last year

I'm not keen on the smell of horseshat either, mind you.

grantus Posted on 31/07/2008 17:12
Weaker squad than last year

Once again, from the top with feeling, for onthemap.

"Aliadiere, a success at Arsenal or not? How many strikers would have broken into that team? Ultimately he didn't, so HE WAS NOT A SUCCESS, but this needs to be qualified with his competition. Henry, Bergkamp, Van Persie, Adebayor."

Can you see it yet?

grantus Posted on 31/07/2008 17:12
Weaker squad than last year

Then why are you spending so much time on this thread Bill? It reaks of it round here.

onthemap Posted on 31/07/2008 17:13
Weaker squad than last year

I can see it with agreat big qualification after it

grantus Posted on 31/07/2008 17:16
Weaker squad than last year

Is qualifying an opinion a bad thing?

Boromart Posted on 31/07/2008 17:16
Weaker squad than last year

not to the same extent Corcaigh_the_Cat, but to some degree I'm sure Ali CAN and IS starting to mature into a very decent prem player. HE really should have left Arsenal 2 years earlier, he wouldn't be viewed with such distain by so many people if he had left at 22 and had a couple of years learning with a smaller club.


wilkos_perm Posted on 31/07/2008 17:16
Weaker squad than last year

just leave it Grantus, the man lives in a strange fantasy world. he is incapable of seeing that most people here actually give reasoned arguments and can identify positives and negatives. Mappy however cannot process this information and oddly exaggerates everyones level of positivity and doesn't realise everyone is fully aware of any negatives or problems we may have.

"I told you all Rocky wasn't suitable for the prem but you all thought he was the greatest player in the world" etc etc

grantus Posted on 31/07/2008 17:18
Weaker squad than last year

I'm in a good mood though wilko.

onthemap...

Would you be so gracious to answer my questions now?

Boromart Posted on 31/07/2008 17:22
Weaker squad than last year

Grant he will just go off on a rant about how black is white, and day is night nad how mackems don't smell of turnip and any number of other factually incorrect and irrelevant things...but he won't discuss your point.

grantus Posted on 31/07/2008 17:25
Weaker squad than last year

I know Mart, I'm better at this than you.

Although you are very useful for stats, I'll grant you that. [;)]

Holgateoldskool Posted on 31/07/2008 17:25
Weaker squad than last year

I agree with mappy - and I'll tell you why. Our spine is only 50% of what is necessary. The goalkeeping and central midfield positions are our obvious weaknesses.

Our signings? Who really knows. But at best they represent potential. We need more than potential inasmuch that we can't carry potential in the team.

Our squad total is heavily reliant on a fair few academy players. Once again promising but quite naturally not having the experience for the Prem. We've shipped out a lot of experience - and that is a worry.

It seems to me that many feel as long as you have pace then all in the garden is rosey.To me a very naive opinion.And didn't we hear that last pre season?

There are positives - Stewy, Alves,Huth, Young and on occasions Tungay and Ali.To me it puts the onus on far too few of the squad to be on top of their game to make the progress some of you appear convinced we will make.

Stabilo_Boss Posted on 31/07/2008 17:30
Weaker squad than last year

OTM, straight yes or no answer:

Was Mido a success at Roma?

No need to qualify the statement. I know you see such additions as irrelevant.

Holgateoldskool Posted on 31/07/2008 17:42
Weaker squad than last year

Stabilo can I ask you what relevence your question has?

sheriff_john_bunnell Posted on 31/07/2008 18:08
Weaker squad than last year

GK - yikes.
DF - stronger IF we can keep Huth fit
MF - We dont seem to have bought the players we need and have lost our 2 best center mids. a signing is needed and a good one.
up front - stronger. we have Alves. Mido is also a good player IF he can stay fit.

I am concerned because the squad appears built around pace and workrate, with little guile or nous or passing ability. Strength at the back and a guarantee of goals up front will keep us up. Downing Alves Wheater and Young are 4 top class players. If we can get Mido and Huth fit and dont suffer any injuries to those 4 we may have a more comfortable season than last year.
The gaping hole in center midfield really worries me though, as does southgates tactical nous and the lack of a fall back in goal.

Adi_Dem Posted on 31/07/2008 19:25
Weaker squad than last year

Haven't read this thread because frankly it's pointless but in summary you consider that we are weaker than last season and you take that view one month before the transfer window has closed and on the basis that we have released two players you didn't rate, two that were over 33 (and whom you subjected to significant criticism last season) and because you don't rate a player that you have never seen play.

Almost as good as the DGL is better than Aliadiere debacle.

Let's be clear here. Based on pre-season (and presuming he sticks with 4-4-2) we'll start with Jones in goal, which I agree is weaker. We'll probably end up with Pogo at LB, Huth and Wheater in the centre and Young at right back. That isn't any weaker and is, in fact, stronger. In midfielder we'll start off playing Downing and Ali on the wings and maybe you'll get your wish of GON in the centre with Digard (unless he feeds him in gently and he starts on the bench for a few weeks). Midfield looks OK to me though GON in the centre won't be the best idea in the world. Up front we'll have Alves and Tuncay. Again, stronger than last season.

Add to that a bench that has Riggott, Arca, Mido, Johnso, Walker, Taylor on it and I can't say that we're weaker than last year really. In fact, we're probably stronger.