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RobbieProsinecki Posted on 24/10 0:26
USA and Israel (the hatred of)

Brave America and Gallant Israel. Our brothers in arms in the war on terror. Our only friends in the world. Can't believe why people are anti-American or anti-Semitic. It just doesn't stand to reason. Yet it is prevolent in society, and often on this board.

Why?

I have questioned people who reckon they hate America and Israel and most of the time it doesn't stand up to interrogation. Its irrational.

So why?

forza_boro Posted on 24/10 0:29
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

What was isreal before ww2 hitler was the one responsible for the holocaust so why do the palestinians have to suffer, it ws their home before 1939 just as it was after.

There is no such thing as an isreali they are all imgrants who feld their, have you seen how the Palestinians are ghetto ised are sunject to severe state sponsored tyranny.

The jews are doing to the arabs what teh nazi's did to them.

And they get away with it becuase the US back them.

Buggerlugs Posted on 24/10 0:32
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

but the bible said it was the land of the Jews, therefore it is was the jew's god given right to take the land.

forza_boro Posted on 24/10 0:34
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

And there in lies the problem,

without the US backing financial, military, and supplies how long would isreal last with Us nuclear back up?

24 hours tops

--- Post edited by forza_boro on 24/10 0:34 ---

nagga Posted on 24/10 0:35
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

I am glad they back them.

RobbieProsinecki Posted on 24/10 0:37
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

Whether The Good Book said so or not is irrelevant, the fact is that the Jewish people were there first. Only the Diaspora took them away.

Palestine was a catch-all term for Transjordan and modern-day Israel, therefore 75% of Palestine is actually an Arabic state - Jordan. The remaining 25% is a Jewish state, so the Jews have lost out. Yet still there is pressure to relinquish even more land.

Palestine was nothing except marsh and swamp and desert, before Jewish settlers came in and developed it. Now the 'Palestinians' want in. Only the gallantry and brilliance of the Israeli military has kept Israel alive in the wake of 7 seven hostile states. For all the while the US was supplying Israel, the Soviets were supplying Egypt.

Now Israel has usurped America and makes its own weapons to defend its brave people.

IF THE ARABS LAID DOWN THEIR WEAPONS, THERE WOULD BE NO MORE VIOLENCE.

IF THE ISRAELIS LAID DOWN THEIR WEAPONS, THERE WOULD BE NO MORE ISRAEL.

Buggerlugs Posted on 24/10 0:40
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

Welcome back Moxy lad

number_10 Posted on 24/10 0:45
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

Crikey, wonder who this could be

Buggerlugs Posted on 24/10 0:46
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

Using the "they were there first " argument would you agree that the future of Norhern Ireland should be handed back to the indigenous catholic population regardless of the wishes of the protestant settlers.

I don't know as much about Israel as i should but I do believe isreal have acted appalingly over the years and have probably breached more UN Resolutions than any other country.

forza_boro Posted on 24/10 0:48
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

Ok isreal is teh only country on earth taht imports all it's produce from outside as it can't trade with it's neighbours

Mox what about the fact a mass murderer is now the prime minister (he boasts of how many he killed in the interfada) why d they continue to flaunt UN sanctions on the settlements and the land distribution and why do the us save their skin over and over again.

RobbieProsinecki Posted on 24/10 0:50
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

But in the context, Buggerlugs, they haven't behaved appallingly at all. In fact they've conducted themselves with great restraint, considering people are blowing themselves up in their streets all year round, their soldiers are constantly harassed and every once in a while an Arab country fancies its chances and attacks.

How many nations would be attacked, would beat the attacker, and then give back the land it took?

Egypt was aggressive to Israel, in a brilliant maneovre Israel took the Sinai...within a few years it was back in Egyptian hands.

Don't believe the anti-Israel, anti-USA media we constantly fed in this country.

Link: ......

forza_boro Posted on 24/10 0:51
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

at all. In fact they've conducted themselves with great

tell that to the people of Jenin that weren't slaughtered bullozed to death,

and where did the bull dozers come from?

RobbieProsinecki Posted on 24/10 1:00
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

They were Caterpillar Bulldozers from America.

But the point is that operations in disputed territories are only a response to terrorist actions. Bulldozers move in to tear down PLO or Hamas infrastructure. Really the finger has to be pointed at the constant 'Palestinian' aggression that gives israel a pretext for such action.

number_10 Posted on 24/10 1:00
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

Aye the bible says a lot of things Buggerlugs. For example dosn't it also say after Pilate washes his hands of Jesus' blood, that one of the jewish priests says "then may his blood be on our hands, and that of our children and their children" etc etc.

Something to that effect anyway. Effectively it could be used as an excuse for the holocaust. Politics and religion are a dangerous mix, as this situation proves. As forza just pointed out though, the Israelis are doing just what the nazi's did to them to the palestinians and it's sickening, all the while america backs them. Holding these views does not make me or anyone else holding them anti-semitic in any way.

Buggerlugs Posted on 24/10 1:01
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

For every dozen Israeli's killed by Palstinian suicide bombers there have been hundreds of innocent Palestinians killed. Israel operates an aparthied state in which Arabs are forced to live in abject poverty.

ps Forza - You can't say Bulldozer anymore, it is politically incorrect.

forza_boro Posted on 24/10 1:01
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

Two contraversial words i would take isue with there;


disputed territories and terrorist actions

Disputed by who'm?

define terrorist?

Buggerlugs Posted on 24/10 1:04
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

I know Nr. 10, I was being facetious. I was trying to highlight the ludicrousness of "the good book". The bible also says you aren't allowed to eat lobster or prawns.

forza_boro Posted on 24/10 1:06
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

Amazing fact i learned tonight watching bbc 2 prog about Venice, Jews who flocked to venice were put on an island where they were allowed to live in venice the island was an old forge the venetian for forge is Getto, this is where the term Ghetto comes from

from Italian getto ‘foundry’

RobbieProsinecki Posted on 24/10 1:06
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

Jenin is in the West Bank. The West Bank, Gaza Strip and Golan Heights are all disputed territories, as in they weren't in the 1948 formation of Israel but Israel has extended its influence over them after the wars with Egypt (Gaza), Golan Heights (Syria) and West Bank (Jordan).

Terrorist is someone who uses terror to try and get their way and that is exactly what the 'Palestinians' are doing, terrorising the local Jewish population. The old cliche is that they could be freedom fighters, but that can't be true because they are deliberately targeting innocents, children, and the effect is they have less freedom. Terrorists.

forza_boro Posted on 24/10 1:09
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

but Israel has extended its influence over them - ie you mean stole them through brute strength and against UN law

How can a man throwing a stone be a terrorist when those he is fighting have M16 Carbines (us standard issue), so who is the aggressor?

number_10 Posted on 24/10 1:12
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

Exactly, Who are the terrorists here mox? In what way does the Israelis slaughering impoverished palestinians make them any better than Palestinian suicide bombers?

Seems to me your argument is a sort of "but he started it miss" attitude, which makes it ok for the israelis to murder countless palestinians in retaliation to any sort of minor attack.

The terrorists here are the israelis as far as i'm concerned.

RobbieProsinecki Posted on 24/10 1:13
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

No Forza, each one of them was occupied by Israel during the Arabic invasions.

Golan Heights was used to shell Israeli settlements, so when Syria became aggressive it was natural that Israel secured them. West Bank and Gaza act as crucial buffer zones between Egypt and Jordan, although ironically, Egypt refused to absorb Gaza because it didn't want 700'000 'Palestinians' to deal with.

Israel, a hated state with 5 hostile nations on its borders and people exploding themselves in its streets has to be vigilant, surely you can understand that?


And I repeat, what other nation, having been attacked so many times, would magnainmously hand back its conquered territories?

Israel had Syria by the jugular and could have marched on Damascus but didn't. If they're so brutal - why? Why did Israel hand back the Sinai if they're so awful?

Israel is powerful because it has a fantastic military and a brave leadership. Strength for Israel is not a choice its a necessity to survive.

--- Post edited by RobbieProsinecki on 24/10 1:16 ---

forza_boro Posted on 24/10 1:14
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

This may upset people or even be precieved as racist prejudice etc but it is a fact Isreal was set up as a guilt trip to the world we all felt guilty about the holocaust so we (britain esp) gave them isreal to ease our conscience, sadly we forgot about those already living there.

forza_boro Posted on 24/10 1:17
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

there are no isreali's they are from the Uk germany new york (alot are heading their as their birth right) they are the inavders they are the agressors

It's like me saying im a christian so im going to bethleham..

bluetitch Posted on 24/10 1:17
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

FFS!
Yet again it all comes down to religion - why can't people agree to disagree? Where I live, I share the community with students, Irish, Asians, West Indians, Chinese, etc.. very few problems, considering it's a "deprived inner city area"!.

RobbieProsinecki Posted on 24/10 1:18
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

Zionism, and the setting up of the Israeli state, was in motion much before the Holocaust Forza. And Israel was set up by the UN - ie, effectively sanctioned by the majority of the world.

forza_boro Posted on 24/10 1:20
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

Isreal is all about religion the most prejudiced nation on the planet a jew only country.

Yes as a guilt trip

forza_boro Posted on 24/10 1:21
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

what do you know about Mossad and Isreali military techniques?

RobbieProsinecki Posted on 24/10 1:23
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

Forza, the guilt trip argument is a valid one, the Jewish people has seen centuries of pogroms and massacres and eventually the extermination of 6 million people. Its about time, is it not, that Jewish people were self-governed so it could never happen again?

Mossad is one of the most daring agencies in the world. Look at their retribution on Nazi war criminals, and compare the Entebbe raid with our response to Ken Bigley. All power to them.

forza_boro Posted on 24/10 1:31
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

I think the SAS are without equal in CT operations as the Sayeret Matkal (isreali SF) are modelled on the SAS.

Bigley was tricky as we didnt know where he was if we did then the sas would have been able to go in.

For Entebbe read Mogadishu 1977

number_10 Posted on 24/10 1:34
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

Why the hell should there be a nation that is only for the "jewish people". That is racist in itself. That's like saying all catholic people should be in their own nation too and no one else should be allowed in. It's farcical. Religion shouldn't come into how a country is run, regardless of how a certain race of people was persecuted in the past, because when it is inevitably bigotry and inequality will lead from that religious involvement.

In this case, the palestinians are the victims.

RobbieProsinecki Posted on 24/10 1:37
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

You think the alternative, a "Palestinian" state would be full of freedom, secularism and tolerance then?

Israel is doing what it can to survive. If 'Palestinians' weren't blowing themselves up, it wouldn't need to bulldoze their houses. If Egypt hadn't invaded, it wouldn't ever have needed to touch Gaza, etc.

If in 1948, when Israel was formed, the other nations and peoples in the area had held their hands up and said "fair enough, kiddo" there would still be peace to this day.

Israel, if it is a warlike nation, has been made so.

forza_boro Posted on 24/10 1:40
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

If america said look islreal jst accept like they did with ira then isreal would be weakened and there would be peace.

america sent a jewish woman madelkine allbright to negotaite isreal with the arabs and the PLO that says it all.

The day amrica looks at this neutrally like they eventually did with ireland then and only then will we see genuine peace.

number_10 Posted on 24/10 1:48
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

"If in 1948, when Israel was formed, the other nations and peoples in the area had held their hands up and said "fair enough, kiddo" there would still be peace to this day."

What a load of rubbish, so in your view these people were just supposed to agree to a bunch of jewish people walking into their land they had lived in for years, and then taking over because they were promised it thousands of years ago and because they'd been victimised terribly in a war that was of no cause nor meaning to the palestinian people.

forza_boro Posted on 24/10 1:52
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

The key is that for all the faer of oustsiders and terrosts the Prime minister was assassinated by a young Jewish isreali who was angered that Rabin was giving in to the arabs.

On November 4, 1995, an individual associated with an extremist group did assassinate Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin, shooting him with a 9mm Beretta pistol after a political rally in Tel Aviv's "Malchei Yisrael" Square, a rally in support of the peace process that was attended by more than 100,000 people. A 27 year-old Jewish law student named Yigal Amir was apprehended on the scene and confessed to the crime. He was unrepentant and later told prosecutors that the assassination was meant to halt the Mideast peace process. He said that Rabin wanted to "give our country to the Arabs," and "We need to be cold-hearted." He was motivated by a disturbed, extremist religious and political point of view.



So their are terrorists on both sides, and there are plenty in isreal that don't peace either.

Scrote Posted on 24/10 2:40
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

mox - you are a fookin moron

up until about three years ago israel was a multi ethnic state with a large nunmber of israeli arabs living there

the current intifada is the first time that the israeli arabs have taken up arms (or rocks) against the israeli jews

without the right wing govt led by the war criminal sharon - who makes bush and blair look like cub scouts - there would be no trouble in israel

the suicide bombings have ALWAYS been preceded by israeli violence and i've posted documents from both sides proving this in the past

the fact that israel has broken countless UN resolutions shows that they are not willing to seek a peaceful end whilst they have the military backing from the US

ask rachel corrie what she thinks about it

MrAngryCurrentlyInAberdeen Posted on 24/10 8:03
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

Modern state of Israel was set up by the predecessor to the UN, the League Of Nations, and yes as a guilt trip for the rest of the world doing little while Hitler went about exterminating them during WWII. Palestine was their 'ancestral home' and a wilderness, sparsely populated by a 'few' arabsat the time. The araba weren't kicked out when the jews were moved in, only asked to share the land. They didn't want to, hence all the trouble ever since.

Since then the jews have been attacked repeatedly by various arab countries, and in the main, have only RE-acted to force applied against them. True, they have been ignoring UN sanctions and encroaching into arab lands, but is that any surprise? They ses that as a way of securing their borders against frequent aggression.

Everybody seems to ignore UN sanctions with impunity these days. They don't mean anything unless they are enforced, and look how successful they were against Iraq. The UN need to be seen as a major player in world politics, but sadly, they are a laughing stock. Kofi Annan, what a joke!

America backs them because most of it's administration is filled with jews, but Israel doesn't need their backing. It has it's own nuclear arsenal.

I admire Israel, for surviving in a sea of hate, but I don't necessarily support all their actions. All I will say is that the Israelis don't go blowing up bombs amongst indiscriminate civilian targets. Would you condemn the British Army's role against the IRA's similar campaigns?

95% of the world's terrorists are muslim. What does that tell you? Argue over that one fact if you can.

Nisko Posted on 24/10 9:06
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

And 85% of statistics are made up on the spot.

deganya Posted on 24/10 9:11
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

seeing as Israel ignore every UN resolution and have weapons of mass destruction, can we invade them? Occupy their land, steal their natural resources? One rule for some countries and another for Israel!!

NorfolknGood Posted on 24/10 9:11
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

It tells me they're p1ssed off about something.

'If 'Palestinians' weren't blowing themselves up, it wouldn't need to bulldoze their houses'. So if the police suspect that someone on your estate has a bomb, they can come in and blow the whole estate up.

Welcome back.

Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 24/10 9:47
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

The bible is a work of fiction, edited over the last few thousand years to suit whoever was in power at the time.

The USA breaks more UN resolutions than any other nation. They don't give a monkey's about the rest of the world.

Israel is a middle eastern fascist state.

The_Commisar Posted on 24/10 10:16
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

CTC's analysis is just about spot on.
Israel is a country ran by people who think they are Gods chosen ones...
Great "get out of jail" card is to have in your back pocket.

Mr Prosneki, you come across as Mr Red-Neckie. Please take your deluded ramblings elsewhere

HytheSaints54 Posted on 24/10 10:23
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

Speaking as an Israeli and Saints fan who did 4 years in the Israeli army at least we have the power of our convictions it is interesting to note the ragheads cause because as you drive into Tel Aviv on the Ashkelon Freeway someone has written on a bridge, Mr Clinton when you give America back to the indians we will give Israel to the arabs, Avanti (understand) Shabat Shallom
Pompey Ashpa Gamoor (Total $hi^)

The_Commisar Posted on 24/10 10:50
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

Look, Israel has zero - zip - nada right to exist. The only reason it survives is because a powerful political lobby in the US wants it.
Israel/Palestine is not nor never has been a Jewish country for the best part of 2200 years.
I fail to understand how a group of people who have been treated so badly can inflect so much pain and suffering on another group of humanity.

harry_callaghan Posted on 24/10 10:53
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

who gives a s#it usa and israel are small fry flight options are the real enemy.

LORD_DAVID_OF_BORO Posted on 24/10 11:25
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

When will you wake up and smell the coffee? Thegreat war is approaching.

Muslims verus everybody else; the only answer is to nuke most of the middle east and indonesia.

littlejimmy Posted on 24/10 11:47
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

Yeah, let's kill billions of people for the sake of flushing out a few extremists. Sledgehammer to crack nuts doesn't even come close. Are you serious? I can't believe you are, and if you are, trying to argue rationally would be an utter waste of time.

forza_boro Posted on 24/10 11:55
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

The scary thing is some in the pentagon also think like that.

littlejimmy Posted on 24/10 11:59
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

Where do you start with such an argument? Not only would the whole world be screwed because of the nuclear strikes, but if you use this logic of wanting to rid the world of all muslims, you'd want to get rid of the muslims who live in the west with us. What happened the last time an entire race was persecuted by a leader who wanted to rid the world of them?
Unbelievable.

LiamO Posted on 24/10 12:08
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

HytheSaints54 – I’d say that sums up the Israeli attitude pretty well. It appears that in their eyes, two wrongs do make a right. So if the Americans took the Indians' land from them, that means it’s OK for the Israelis to take someone else’s, does it? Just as they seem to think that because terrible things were done to them during World War II, it’s OK to inflict pain and suffering on another group of human beings.

“An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind” - Mohandas Gandhi.

riverboat_captain Posted on 24/10 12:21
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

Anti semitism and a hatred of Israel are two different things snd it isn't a good idea to confuse the two.

As for "Gallant" Israel. Are these the same people who are building a wall through Palastinian land, bombing and bulldozing houses and schools and shooting schoolchildren in their own homes?

MrAngryCurrentlyInAberdeen Posted on 24/10 12:22
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

Few? Anyone know the percentages of muslims as opposed to the rest of the world?

Islam IS an expansionist religion, and if you check back through your history books, you'll find it has been expanding across the world since the middle ages.

Political Correctness in the modern world allows it to expand. We are not allowed to criticise it, or it's extremist followers, for sake of being tarred with the American brush of picking on the arabs.

Just look at the UK. It's composed of Scotland, Wales and Ireland. No one dares mention ENGLAND any more.

I think the Great War started off many years ago, just we aren;t allowed to acknowledge the fact.

RobbieProsinecki Posted on 26/10 19:32
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

Just seen how Ariel Sharon is keen to push through the Israeli withdrawal of settlers from the Gaza strip. WTF is he doing? Doesn't he know that he has a murderous, barbaric babykilling reputation to upkeep? Israelis are just animals aren't they.

On a serious note, on coming back to this thread after a few days in Teesside, how does everyone think their right-wing bile ridden skewed view of Israel actually measures up to the reality we see unfolding?

Elron_Hubbard Posted on 26/10 19:44
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

Mr Prosinecki - on a different question, do you think that individuals who mutilate their own male children's genitalia purely to satisfy their own superstition should be prosecuted for child abuse?

The_Commisar Posted on 26/10 19:55
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

speaking as someone who has a reputation on this board of being slightly to the right of Chingis Kahn, can I just say that Israeli behaviour does not fit into any (neat) poltical anaology, to paraphrase the Redskins
"neither left nor right but Tel Aviv"
Now feck off
tah

borobuddah Posted on 26/10 20:45
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

I have challenged anti-semitism on this board, and can assure you it is not rife here.

My anti - racism comes from my horror at what was done to Jewish people over the years.

Israel's treatment of the Palestinian people is a travesty of gut wrenching proportions though, in my view, like a kid that suffered at the hands of bullies who grows up to enjoy bullying others.

I am an anti-Zionist, and there are a fair few more on here

RobbieProsinecki Posted on 26/10 21:26
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

Commisar - my point is that Israel, supposedly this aggressive terrorist state has just announced plans to withdraw from Gaza. What may I ask is your point?

And for all those who believe this isn't an anti-semitic issue, why not read Elron_Hubbards post?

SidSnot Posted on 26/10 21:33
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

Robbie, Sharon is giving up Gaza (8,000 settlers) to strengthen his grip on the West Bank (200,000 settlers exc Jerusalem).

There's terrible wrong on both sides of this conflict. However, what is clear is that only Israel can solve it. The Palestinians cannot solve this dispute. They want a viable state - only Israel can give them that.

RobbieProsinecki Posted on 26/10 21:39
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

Its a trade off but it must be seen as the step in the right direction whatever the motives, and a bit of an embarassment for people who claim the state of Israel is murderous/barabaric etc, well here it is stabilising a region by removing Jews, so surely an encouraging sign.

As regards a Palestinian state, some would argue it already exists - Jordan, which makes up 75% of what was originally Palestine.

Some more people would question the fact that a need for a Palestinian state is taken for granted. See article below called "Do the Palestinains Deserve a State" its an interesting viewpoint.

I firmly believe that the Palestinians should get a Palestinian state but I can't help but feel that the Palestinians will still want more, and will always want more.

Link: Do the Palestinians deserve a state

SidSnot Posted on 26/10 22:09
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

It's hardly a balanced article. Of course anyone would oppose some of the barbarity the author describes, but the more important issue is what has created aspects of this barbarism and whether it truly represents the will of the Palestinan people.

I would assume that you would describe Israel as a peace loving state and its people as humane. If this is the case, then how can you justify the brutal oppression of palestinian people (bulldozers, rocket attacks, checkpoints etc)? You justify it as necessary given Palestinian provocation. Naturally, they would do the same.

forza_boro Posted on 26/10 22:26
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

So the settler who will refuse to agree to what their Leader sheron has decided what do you feel about them then?

As even the isreali govt agree they should not be there.

and their fight to the death mentality for land that isn't rightfully theirs

--- Post edited by forza_boro on 26/10 22:45 ---

red_rebel Posted on 26/10 23:11
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

This entire thread is composed of the shattered blood spattered fragments of your two previous efforts on teh same subject Mox.

Here's my stuff recycled from before...

The terror state of Israel is a bastarrd son of guilt ridden political convenience and aggreessive American imperaalism.

It has been fostered to cynically destablise a region that the US do not want to be peaceful lest they more effectively and confidently utilise the oil.

The Israeli's are predominantly East European in origin. They have no historical, racial or cultural link with the region. The indiginous jewish people who do and who have lived in peace alongside their semitic neighbours the Arabs for 5,000 years, are treated not much better than the Palestinians.

The terror state is a engaged in a slo-mo genocide of the indigenous people in the hope that if they can silence them all then it wil confer on them legitimacy. It won't.

That the survivors of the Holocaust can engage in such systematic, state supported brutality is perverse.

The current 'give away of land' is part of a cynical PR offensive to soften up the US. They 'give' Palestine the Gaza strip (but only after it has been run into the ground) but then will seize the West Bank and consolidate it into greater Israeli.

The political, military and financial support of Israel is the single biggest and inescapable factor that undermines the United States claim to any kind of moral leadership of the world.

So long as the US supports Israeli's breach of international law and policy of military violence against its own citizens it can never be respected by 90% of the planet.

borobuddah Posted on 26/10 23:26
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

SHH, Mox has gone a'bed.

red_rebel Posted on 26/10 23:34
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

To dream up stage two of his re-entry to our merry community do you think?

borobuddah Posted on 26/10 23:44
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

Probably to knock one off to his maggie poster.

billyboro Posted on 26/10 23:56
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

This site is full of contradictions, raciscm is jumped on and rightly so.

But you can come out with some of the most apalling anti semitic bile I have ever seen and it is OK.

borobuddah Posted on 26/10 23:58
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

Give an example, it should be stamped out.

RobbieProsinecki Posted on 27/10 10:57
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

Firstly, red_rebel, I don't understand your USA connection. USA supplied Israel with weapons, that is a fact, but all the while the Soviet Union were supplying Egypt/Syria etc. It was part of the balance of power. Now, you say the USA wants an unstable Middle East, maybe, but by you're logic, if it is to protect its oil interests with its Arabic friends surely the last thing it would do is support Israel? Surely they would be on the Arabic side against Israel? And if America wants to destabilise the region, why has America been at the forefront of every peace initiative, why has it done more than any country on Earth to solve this crisis.

As for Jews being East European in origin, do you know where they settled in East Europe from? Do you know why they fled East Europe? Not just because they felt like it, I can tell you.

It just seems to me, and maybe I've got this completely wrong, that people always hate the winner, and people always look for an underdog. If you lived 2,000 years ago, wouldn't you be supporting the Judean people against those Neo-Conservative imperialists the Romans? Maybe if 50 years ago, the Arabic nations at won the war and driven Israel into the sea, you'd be complaining of a massive humanitarian disaster as 8 million Jews would have been forcibly removed?

Someone mentioned about the analogy with Native Americans. Well what would be your stance if suddenly the scattered Sioux population started to inhabit, say, Montana again. Sioux flood in and proclaim a new Sioux state, and start to kick off Americans of that land. Sioux defeats the US invasion and even captures Nebraska (but hands it back). What follows is the strengthening of the Sioux state and perhaps a few quarrels and conflicts with insurgent Americans. What would your stance be there? Whose land is it, American or Sioux, the Sioux were there first, but were kicked off it. So does that mean it is American and the Sioux have no right to be there?

"slo-mo genocide" now I've heard everything. Where is your evidence? Surely the regular blowing up of Israeli citizens fits more into that phrase?

The Palestinian people should go to the exisiting Arabic Palestinian state (75% of Palestine), known as Jordan. West Bank and Gaza become semi-autonomous regions of Egypt and Jordan and Israel can live in peace.

--- Post edited by RobbieProsinecki on 27/10 10:58 ---

Link: evil?

Arnold_Rimmer Posted on 27/10 11:08
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

Robbie I have read your thoughts with great interest alongside the others on this thread and have come to the conclusion that you could potentially be described as "blinkered". Would you agree with that or do you believe that you are seeing the full picture?

shaun_84 Posted on 27/10 11:12
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

Can't believe I've not seen this thread until now. I like Buggerlugs' first post! The stirrer!

darmok Posted on 27/10 11:13
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

Jews have always been in the Middle East, ever heard of The Exodus, and I don't mean The Bob Marley album.

RobbieProsinecki Posted on 27/10 11:30
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

Well, maybe Arnold, but there are surely blinkered people on both sides of this one. I like to think my arguments actually have foundation rather than sweeping statements like "terrorist state" "slo-mo genocide" which is just hysterical right-wing rhetoric.

shaun_84 Posted on 27/10 11:32
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

These foreign usernames scare me, you're not going to go 'Stary' are you?? I know you're a little bit bitter right now....!

Arnold_Rimmer Posted on 27/10 11:36
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

But surely it is better to try to see both sides than to present a blinkered view to spite the other blinkered people? Obviously I have mentioned you because you started the thread but I appreciate your point that people can takes sides - but is it helpful? The more unblinkered people the more chance of a resolution.

guyb Posted on 27/10 11:41
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

short and sweet

because they both are run by and act like koontz.

--- Post edited by guyb on 27/10 11:41 ---

Azedarac Posted on 27/10 11:42
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

Here's a crazy idea. How about giving everyone who lives within Israel's borders equal rights to travel and work anywhere in the country, vote in the elections and have equal standing as a citizen, whether they are ethnically Jewish, Arab or neither.

I can understand how the cycle of violence between Arab and Jew has escalated. I don't condone Arab terrorism, and I also have a problem with the internal apartheid system.

If the occupied territories are an integral part of Israel, then all occupants in those territories are Israeli citizens and should have equal status with the Jewish population. If they are not an integral part of Israel then the Israelis should withdraw from them as they are a hostile aggressor.

The whole issue is a festering boil that has repercussions far beyond Israeli borders. If there was a peaceful state of Israel and state of Palestine side by side, do you think the Arab/American friction would have reached the nightmare proportions we are seeing today?

Lucky_Alf Posted on 27/10 11:46
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

Its interesting that such a (relatively) small amount of people getting killed in Israel provokes such righteous indignation from people.

For instance, why does noone mention such things as the MILLIONS of people being persecuted, murdered or displaced in Southern Sudan by Muslim Arabs determined to make their country "clean"?

As someone has said, noone is allowed to criticise the inherently disgusting and abominable actions carried out in the name of Islam.

No balance to this debate.

red_rebel Posted on 27/10 12:28
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

Come on Mox, surely its not that hard to understand.

The US want to control the supply of oil. They can't afford a peaceful, stable, prosperous region based on secular states with democratic governments becuase those governments might start using the oil money in an independent way and refusing to sell it to US oil giants at below market prices.

So it is in the US interest to keep the region in contstant turmoil and on the verge of war (buying US weapons is a bonus too). They do that by supporting politically and uncritically a small alien minority and arming them to the hilt.

They also do it by supporting corrupt Arab military regimes and encouragingthem to smash any moves toward democracy.

Far from promoting peace initiatves the US have always said nothing when a settlement seemed close and the Israeli's cynically collapsed it.

So long as the region is fractured and backward it will not challenge the US economic hegemony.

The Israeli state knows exactly what the game is. They play their role enthusiastically. And the money roles in.

And yes I would certainly have supported the Jewish uprising. And the Sioux nation. That is about self determination, not a colony carved out by force. That is a basic principle.

And talking about principles, I thought you were in favour of invading states that had weapons of mass distruction, used the military machine against its own citizens, invaded its neighbours and continualy flouted UN resolutions?

Azedarac Posted on 27/10 12:28
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

I don't recall any threads starting with a post calling the Sudanese Arabs "Gallant", or "Our brothers in arms". It sort of set the subject for the debate.

No one is debating crimes in any other areas of the world on this thread either. It doesn't make it unbalanced, it means it is discussing one subject that a lot of people are interested in.

For the record, my opinion is that the crimes in Sudan are one of the worst atrocities in my lifetime, dwarfing what's happening in Israel. I doubt you'll find anyone defending what's happening in Sudan though. It's far more black and white an issue than the complex Arab/Israeli situation, so of course it's not going to create much debate.

Going back to the original post, if America and Israel are "Our only friends in the world" where does that leave the Canadians, Australians, New Zealanders and even Indians who have laid down their lives in defence of this country?

albo87 Posted on 27/10 12:40
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

What do you mean, "no-one's allowed to criticise the inherently disgusting and abominable actions carried out in the name of Islam", Lucky Alf? You just have! But I wouldn't expect too much about the horrors of Sudan on a thread about Israel and the USA.

Atrocities elsewhere are not a reason to downplay the, persecution and mass murder being committed by the Israeli state. The suffering of the Palestinians over many decades has been enormous, and it has been perpetrated by a close political ally of the USA and UK.

Not only was Israel established on someone else's land, it has been armed and financed to be the USA's attack dog in the Middle East, intimidating and occasionally attacking its neighbours to keep them in line. In line with US foreign policy, that is.

I don't know about the 'two-state' solution. I think there should be a single, secular state, called Palestine, where people of all faiths and of none are allowed to live with the same rights. Any state set up on racial or religious grounds, as Israel is, is effectively an apartheid regime. The basic inequality and inhumanity of it will be fought against until it has gone, just as it was in South Africa.

MoggasDog Posted on 27/10 13:13
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

Israel causes far too much instability in the world.
The US always back it to the hilt wehen they should be controlling sharron rather than defending him. The rise of neo-conservatism in the US(who are invariably zionist Jews) has fanned the flames no end.
I agree, no nation should be allowed to be the home of one religion - it should be secular palestine.
I am sick to death of israel destabalising the middle east and our relationship with the US means that arab countries trreat us with the same contempt. Israel should not exist.
The UN should intervene and sanction Israel if they insist on settling inm palestinian territory. One ray of hope is sharrons plans to withdraw sttlements from some areas.
I am in no way anti-jew , let me make that clear, but i do have nothing but contempt for Israel.


--- Post edited by MoggasDog on 27/10 13:16 ---

Chutney Posted on 27/10 13:22
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

Very suspicious of Sharon's plan to remove the settlers from the Gaza Strip, haven't quite worked out what his hidden agenda is yet though.

Any theories? I'm desperately hoping it isn't a precursor to a wave of carpet bombing.

red_rebel Posted on 27/10 15:23
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

Sharon is pulling out of Gaza (which looks like Grozny by now anyway) so he can say "See, there is your independent Palestine, how magnamimous we are" while hoping no one notices that they are building more settlements in the far better arable land of the West Bank prior to incorporating it into a greater Israel.

This plan has the support of Bush which means that the 'Road Map' has been torn up.

Look at it like this. I invade your house killing members of your family. Most of your family, fearing for their lives, leave so they become homeless.

Some members of your family survive and stay. I force them to live in a couple of bedrooms so that I can take over the rest of the house.

They have to eat, wash (when I allow them access to water) and sleep in these two rooms. Your kids can go to school - until I close it down or blow it up.

When one of your relations becomes ill, I refuse to let the ambulance, which you call to pick them up, take them to hospital.

Every now and then, I send in my mates to trash your rooms.

Most of your adult relatives are unemployed. Outside your house I set up a system of security fences/roadblocks so that it takes your relatives who do work four hours to get to their place of employment.

If one of your children strays into your garden on their way to school I will shoot them and then empty my machine gun magazine into their lifeless body.

I treat you as virtual sub-humans. Your religion is disgusting. Your race impure.

Then, I go for the PR coup. I announce to the world that I am going to let you have one more room in the house to yourself - I will, of course, continue to occupy your other bedrooms, your bathroom, your kitchen, living room, garden and garage.

I will not allow you access to any of these areas. In fact, even though I give you one more room to live in I decide I am going to build on your front and back garden so that my friends and relatives can live near me. That's fair, isn't it.

Some people simply do not get the point. Occupied territories do not belong to Israel. They are not Israel's to give away.

They belong to the Palestinians and only they can decide what they do with their own land. Don't be deceived by this apparent gesture of good faith by the war criminal Sharon.

Accept it for what it is - a diversion, a lie intended to give zionist terrorists a veneer of respectability.

--- Post edited by red_rebel on 27/10 15:35 ---

The_Commisar Posted on 27/10 16:09
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

Nicely put RR
you could have thrown in
"and if you complain I'm going to get big bloke up the street to come in and trash whats left of posessions "

as to the question wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy back up the post

"As for Jews being East European in origin, do you know where they settled in East Europe from? Do you know why they fled East Europe? Not just because they felt like it, I can tell you."

Actually most of the Jews in Eastern Eurpoe, came from....Eastern Europe. In the back end of the dark ages, the Khazar tribes, under political pressure to "pick a side pick a religeon" pressure from (Christian) Byzantium and (Muslim) Arabs adopted the Jewish faith on masse, it is (in the main) their descendents who were the Eastern Euoropean Jews that moved west to America and then ultimately, to Israel.
The jews that were disperesed in the diaspora went to Eygpt and the near east in the main. Few chose Gaul (France) Thrace (Balkans) or Illyria (Northern Greece). This kind of kills your theory off.

It's also interesting to note that to keep the number of Jews in Israel at a high number, in circa 1985, Israel "imported" large numbers of Ethiopians into Israel (at the times of the last famines) as this group were practisers of an off shood of Judaism. They had no ethinc, cultural or social connections with Israel.

To call a Jordanian a Palestinian can only be likened to calling some one from Lahore or Calcutta a "paki" - it shows a fair bit racism and a lot of ignorance.

towz Posted on 27/10 16:18
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

What about the Jews who fled Palestine following the massacres committed by the Romans after the Bar Kochba revolt (around 130 AD)and the destruction of the temple? Jews settled all over north africa and southern europe and many found their way to Poland and Russia. These Jews were originally from Palestine.
And anyway the Jews displaced the Canaanites following the Exodus.
No one owns land. It's a totally false concept.

The_Commisar Posted on 27/10 16:26
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

What about the Jews who fled Palestine following the massacres committed by the Romans after the Bar Kochba revolt (around 130 AD)and the destruction of the temple?

This is what is usuallreferred to as the Diaspora. See comments about where they ended up. Most (if my history serves me right) stayed within the middle east. Thriving Jewish communities in Parthia and Sassanid Persia as a result.

Jews settled all over north africa and southern europe and many found their way to Poland and Russia. These Jews were originally from Palestine.

Whats your evidence for a migration from North Africa and Southern Europe to Poland and Russia ? Define "many" ?
Dark ages and Medieval Russia was Orthodox Chriastain who were strongly anti semitic, no transport infra structure to move people west to east, what there was would have moved people along the mediteranean up the black see to the Crimea.

No, got it...they got the bus didn't they ?


And anyway the Jews displaced the Canaanites following the Exodus.
No one owns land. It's a totally false concept. <- agreed

towz Posted on 27/10 16:34
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

They settled in ports all the way along the med and Balck Sea, Tunis, Carthage, Alexandria, Athens, Marseille, Cadiz, the Crimea, the Black Sea ports of Bulgaria and Romania. There was a thriving trade network throughout the Mediterranean and Black Sea and most would have paid for passage aboard these ships. North African and Middle Eastern jews became known as the Ashkenazzi, European Jews the Sephhardim.

RobbieProsinecki Posted on 27/10 23:43
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

As for future peace between Israel and the Arabs, this is from Benny Elon, an Israeli minister's website. Seems like a reasonable and principled plan to me. What do you reckon?
===
Key principles of the Elon Peace Plan
1. Immediate dissolution of the Palestinian Authority, a non-viable entity with no future, whose existence precludes the termination of the conflict.

2. Israel will uproot the Palestinian terror infrastructure. All arms will be collected, incitement will be stopped and all the refugee camps, which serve as incubators for terror, will be dismantled. Terrorists and their direct supporters will be deported.

3. Israel, the United States and the international community will recognize the Kingdom of Jordan as the only legitimate representative of the Palestinians. Jordan will once again recognize itself as the Palestinian nation-state.

In the context of a regional economic development program, Israel, the United States and the international community will put forth a concerted effort for the long-term development of Jordan, to rehabilitate its economy and enable it to absorb a limited number of refugees within its borders.

4. Israeli sovereignty will be asserted over Judea, Samaria and Gaza (the West Bank). The Arab residents of these areas will become citizens of the Palestinian state in Jordan. The status of these citizens, their connection to the two states and the manner of administration of their communal lives will be decided in an agreement between the governments of Israel and Jordan (Palestine).

5. Israel, the United States and the international community will allocate resources for the completion of the exchange of populations that began in 1948, as well as the full rehabilitation of the refugees and their absorption and naturalization in various countries.

6. After implementation of the above stages, Israel and Jordan-Palestine will declare the conflict terminated. Both sides will work to normalize peaceful relations between all parties in the region.
=========
Interesting stuff. Would certainly solve the crisis. 2 powerful states in the region, instead of 1 Israeli and 2 Arabic ones. He shares the logic that Jordan IS Palestine.

red_rebel Posted on 27/10 23:47
Troll

BLAM!

BLAM!

*bulldozes over house to make sure any infants are dead*

billyboro Posted on 28/10 1:10
l

Why would Jordan ever trust the palestinians?

The other news this evening is that Arafat is dying.

MrAngryCurrentlyInAberdeen Posted on 28/10 7:56
re: Arafat

Arafat's failing health will please not only the Israelis but a lot of Palestinians as well, who see him as milking the situation for his own ends for years, and stirring up trouble needlessly.

zaphod Posted on 28/10 8:22
re: Land Rights

This argument about the Jews having a right to the land cos they occupied it 1,900+ years ago is just ridiculous. Using reductio ad absurdam, that would justify the Irish, Welsh and Highland Scots kicking the English out of England on the grounds that the Celts had sole occupancy of the land 1,600 years ago before the Anglo-Saxon and Viking invasions.

Azedarac Posted on 28/10 9:40
re: Troll

Benny Elons plan in simple terms:

-Israel gets the occupied territories
-Palestinians living there get Jordanian citizenship and are "encouraged" to move to Jordan
-US and Israel make some token gestures of payment to Jordan.

With such an obvious solution, I can't see why there has been all the fuss!

Here's another solution. Israel relocates to the National Hockey Stadium in Milton Keynes. Any proper Israeli won't mind the upheaval, after all it's still the same state. Any Israeli citizens who don't want to relocate will be considerd part-time Jews who can't be bothered to follow their state. In a couple of years they will rename from Israel to MK Zion.

Dont_do_Blondes Posted on 28/10 9:50
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

I worked in Gaza for about 6 months so I have experienced what goes on there 1st hand. Have to say i completely agree with Forza.

What has happened to Palestinians over there is an absolute travisty and some of the things I have seen and heard from UN officials makes you want to cry!

Linny_Boy Posted on 28/10 10:08
re: Troll

If I quote red_rebel out of context, it could read like a National Socialist pamphlet from the 1930's called "The Evils of the Jewish Bolshevik State" or "Free the Sudetenland"

"Look at it like this. I invade your house killing members of your family. Most of your family, fearing for their lives, leave so they become homeless.

Some members of your family survive and stay. I force them to live in a couple of bedrooms so that I can take over the rest of the house.

They have to eat, wash (when I allow them access to water) and sleep in these two rooms. Your kids can go to school - until I close it down or blow it up.

When one of your relations becomes ill, I refuse to let the ambulance, which you call to pick them up, take them to hospital.

Every now and then, I send in my mates to trash your rooms.

Most of your adult relatives are unemployed. Outside your house I set up a system of security fences/roadblocks so that it takes your relatives who do work four hours to get to their place of employment.

If one of your children strays into your garden on their way to school I will shoot them and then empty my machine gun magazine into their lifeless body.

I treat you as virtual sub-humans. Your religion is disgusting. Your race impure." - Protect the Fatherland against the Judo-Slav hordes!

As I understand it after the Diaspora in the first century AD, the dispersal of the Jews, led to 2 distinct groups. The Ashkenazi (sp) who settled in Northern Europe and Russia, and the Sephardim (sp) who settled in the Middle East, Persia, North Africa and the Mediterranean lands. It's not black and white, it's a very grey area.
I think the phrase most appropriate is "one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist".
I'm probably in the anti-American, anti-terrorist, pro-Semetic, pro-Palestinian camp. Couldn't even begin to untangle the Israel/Palestinian solution, or where my sympathies are - they are with both sides of the argument.

RobbieProsinecki Posted on 28/10 11:19
re: Troll

Is that the best you can do, red_rebel?

As I've said, red_rebel and albo's posts just read as meaningless, hysterical right-wing rhetoric without foundation.

Azderac - the logic I think is simple, in that why should Arabic Palestinians have another state, given that Jordan is already just that, an Arabic Palestinian state. Then you would have Israel (strong), Jordan (strong) and Palestine (weak). Israel and Jordan could bully Palestine, Palestine and Jordan could bully Israel etc....

In all fairness, we need a two-state solution, not a three-state one. Israel, and a united Palestinian Jordan state. Two sovereign nations. The people of Gaza and West Bank get the Palestinian Utopia they've been killing themselves to get. Israel gets security and safety.

The only problem I can see with this solution, is that it takes away a reason for the Arab world/western middle classes to hate America/Israel/

littlejimmy Posted on 28/10 11:52
re: Troll

Perhaps you'd have more weight to your argument if you actually addressed the points made rather than just dismissing them as hysterical rhetoric. As far as I can see, you have no answers.

the_thread_needler Posted on 28/10 11:52
re: Troll

this is a cracking thread.

What I don't get though is how you class anti-zionist feeling as right wing. Can you explain that for me?

billyboro Posted on 28/10 11:53
re: Troll

I ask again why would Jordan give citizenship to the Palestinians.

The PLO was expelled from Jordan in "black" September 1970 for trying to overthrow the Hammenite monarchy.

Jordan just does not trust any of the armed Palestinian groups.

Buddy Posted on 28/10 11:55
re: Troll

Can I have the 100 please?

RobbieProsinecki Posted on 28/10 11:59
re: Troll

But littlejimmy, surely you can see the sweeping statements that red_rebel and albo are making. Of "mass murder" "slo-mo genocide" etc, without any back-up. I could say Scotland is the biggest terrorist state in the world, it sounds just as flimsy.

Anti-semitism, including anti-zionism, with the constant vilifying and making Jewish people out to be hate figures has been a key right-wing policy. But it isn't just that, its the hysterical way in which israel is dismissed as "zionist terrorists" etc, it makes very uncomfortable parallels.

Cheeky_Chops Posted on 28/10 12:01
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

Robbie, don't you think it's a bit rich of you to accuse others of "rhetoric" when you keep quoting and linking to Zionist websites.

littlejimmy Posted on 28/10 12:04
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

They have backed it up. Maybe you should read what they've posted about the continued violations of UN resolutions and the endless incursions into Palestinian territories.

I would say it's you that is making sweeping statements with your "right-wing" and "anti-semitism" statements. It's the same "PC brigade" crap that most people come out with for want of a better argument, but switched round to suit your point of view.

Anyway, is it you or not, moxzin? I have a feeling it isn't. It doesn't "sound" or read like moxzin.

WilmslowRed Posted on 28/10 12:07
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

Mox.

Is any / all criticism of the Israeli Government 'anti-semitic'.?

Woodymfc Posted on 28/10 12:11
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

Its all about greed at the end of the day.
F**k Politics!!

Dont_do_Blondes Posted on 28/10 12:14
re: Troll

FACTS.

Approx 85% of the inhabitants are refugee's. For clarity, that means that they were forced out of their homes by "Israel".

The nearest significant town in israel is called Ashkolon, a nice place on the coast, inhabited by Russian "Jews". Even the road signs and shop signs are in Russian.

I met an old Palestian who was the Grandfather of a colleague of mine. He showed me a box which contained what he described as his "past and his future". The contents of the box were to be passed down, through the generations. What was in the box was a key! Not any old key but the key to his house which, as it happened, was in Ashkelon. Now I, naively pointed out that his house was no longer there. He replied that he knew that and that I was missing the point. It was then that I realised just how serious the whole conflict is and how deeply the pain and vengence runs through these people, and I understood why.

Imagine a load of Jocks coming over the border and forcing us out of our homes, making us all live in say, Hartlepool, (no offence, just a place geographically similar to Gaza), puttting a fence round us and leaving us. Then to top it, take over the best parts (where the best water springs are for example) and not letting us go anywhere near them, or be shot dead.

These are facts and who can have as many fancy political terms as you like folks but on the evidence I have seen and experienced they Jewish state should know better.

the_thread_needler Posted on 28/10 12:21
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

thanks for the explanation of why you think anti-zionist feeling is right wing.

I realise now that such definitions preclude sensible debate.

Dont_do_Blondes Posted on 28/10 12:35
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

The deabte is interesting.

Im sorry to say that Im not fully "up" on all the political terms and views mainly because I have no real interest in politics, especially with respect to the Middle East. I think people hide behind these fancy political terms and the facts of the matter never become apparant. It is after all politicians who created the problem in the first place and continue to do so.

The majority of people I met (on both sides of the fence - literally) wanted peace but none are willing to back down.

As I said, all I know is my experience there and what has happened to the refugee's is terrible, not to say that suicide bombers are a nice thing, because they certainly are not.

If it was not bad there would not be so many UN bods out there, they are fcuking everywhere in Gaza and they are doing a great job, see link if it works.

There seems to me to be so much fear and lack of trust on both sides and I am unconvinced that there can ever be true "peace" out there.

By the way, Tel Aviv is a cracking night out!!!

Link: UN

Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 28/10 12:44
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

I've listened to a lot of debate recently on the Middle East. There is a common assumption made that any critique of Israel comes from anti-zionists. I find this a rather narrow minded. I'm not anti-zionist, yet I find there treatment of Palestinians appalling.I have also found that the ideas of the christian right running the USA administration bear no resemblance to the christianity taught me as a child. So am I anti-zionist and anti-christian for this critique? Incidentally, both are extreme right regimes, to call their criticism right wing rhetoric beggars belief.

Linny_Boy Posted on 28/10 13:26
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

hmmm...just read back over some of the posts. The USA government wasn't instrumental in the 19th century Zionist movement..or in the British Balfour Declaration. Can't really blame the USA for that.

red_rebel Posted on 28/10 13:32
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

I am anti-Zionist. I think a militant religious state based on aparthied is abhorrent.

But not anti-Semitic. I think that is the group of peopels who have lost out to the Zionist adventure.

Neither am I anti-Jew. I admire the works of many Jewish thinkers and politicians. You know, Karl MArx, Lev Davidovich Bron, Ygeal Glukstein

Linny_Boy Posted on 28/10 13:40
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

You've got a point about Zionism, rebel. However I prefer the work of Groucho over Karl.
I'll get me coat.

RobbieProsinecki Posted on 28/10 13:40
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

Do you know what Apartheid means? Or are you again using an emotive catch-all term in place of proper debate?

MYTH:
"Israel violates the human rights of the Palestinian Arabs."

FACT:
The facts are different. Israel granted full citizenship to all of the Palestinian Arabs who fell within its borders after the War of Independence. Arabic is an official language in Israel. Israel remains to this day one of the few countries in the Middle East where Arabs can legitimately vote--and it is the only one where women can vote.

MYTH:
"Under Israeli rule, religious freedom has been curbed in Jerusalem."

FACT:
After the 1967 war, Israel abolished all the discriminatory laws promulgated by Jordan and adopted its own tough standard for safeguarding access to religious shrines. "Whoever does anything that is likely to violate the freedom of access of the members of the various religions to the places sacred to them," Israeli law stipulates, "is liable to imprisonment for a term of five years." Israel also entrusted administration of the holy places to their respective religious authorities. Thus, for example, the Muslim Waqf has responsibility for the mosques on the Temple Mount.



I think too many people are going by what the western media report, especially the BBC, show a continued anti-Israeli bias.

Link: a few more myths and facts

red_rebel Posted on 28/10 13:43
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

With all the FACTS and links to extremist websites I now believe this to be the artist formerly known as West Lane Right Winger.

blotonthelandscape Posted on 28/10 13:44
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

Forza apart from being a thoroughly boring twaat on football you are a disgrace.
'The jews are doing to the arabs what teh nazi's did to them.
' (sic)

I am a catholic who is ashamed of the way my religious leaders treat the jewish faith throughout the war, that is in hindsight which is available to you.

RobbieProsinecki Posted on 28/10 13:48
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

Firstly, the "FACT" was from the text of the website, it was directly copied.

Secondly, they are not extremist websites. Your opinions are consistenly the most extreme views on this subject. The websites I have linked to, including one of the Israeli ministers, a mostly mainstream websites just they happen to have a different opinion to you.

Thirdly, if you really think I am Westlane Right Winger, and haven't worked out who I actually am, then you are really not as clever as you think you are.

Fourthly (?), you're consistent resort to insults and blams and snide remarks hardly shows you have strength in your convictions.

--- Post edited by RobbieProsinecki on 28/10 13:49 ---

Buggerlugs Posted on 28/10 13:59
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

This is patently Moxin. His attitude and approch is unmistakable.

speckyget Posted on 28/10 14:08
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

Well if we can't work out who you actually are, why not enlighten us O Wise One?

Why hide behind a new i/d?

RobbieProsinecki Posted on 28/10 14:16
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

Hardly hiding am I? And if I was, as Blackadder once said, I've as much talent for disguise as a giraffe in dark glasses trying to get into a polar-bears-only golf club.

Still, I see some people are still struggling

speckyget Posted on 28/10 14:23
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

Well, moxzin gets my vote, but why change at all? This a 'baggage' thing?

Arnold_Rimmer Posted on 28/10 14:23
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

Robbie I don't know about this business about usernames and disguises as I haven't been aronud long enough to keep up with some of the "injokes" or whatever. But I am intrigued as to your views on this matter and you apparently do not concede there is wrong on the Israeli side?

Most crucially, do you think that they would be in a stronger position to shout their odds if they complied with security council resolution 242?

Dont_do_Blondes Posted on 28/10 15:18
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

Robbie: FACT: You are in fcking dream land mate. What you are actually talking about are those Arabs who were not made refugees and forced to flee into The Gaza Strip and the West Bank.

Jerusalem is indeed a mixed bag of pretty much all religions (maybe apart from Buddhism). All the religions have some sort of stake there. But FACT, there are religious areas that the muslims are not allowed to venture to, even though they (jointly) claim it as part of their faith.

Also, Israel has not signed the Geneva Convention.

Arnold_Rimmer Posted on 28/10 22:04
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

Robbie I just noticed you are around quite recently - what do you think about 242?

Capt_Swin Posted on 28/10 22:09
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

Bloody hell man, you discuss some deep stuff on this board. Anyone see Swindon v Sheff. Wed last night?

RobbieProsinecki Posted on 28/10 22:13
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

242, was that the one rejected by the PLO?

To my mind, 242 was totally wrong. Israel was under attack, it fought a defensive war and took some land in the process. It was then ordered to hand back this land to the aggressors, meaning the aggressors were no worse off. Hardly an incentive not to go to war is it?

In my mind, if Egypt attacks Israel, and then loses the Sinai, there should be no recourse for Egypt.

Cheeses_Christ Posted on 28/10 22:13
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

He may have changed his name but he's still a grade A tit!

The_Commisar Posted on 28/10 22:15
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

I may be wrong here, but Isuspect that RP used to inhabit the boro mailing list ran by Tim Lloyd (RIP) and was BBC employee, who may have worked in I think belgium. This on the basis of a mail he sent arounf by mistake claiming that "this time we'll be prepared unlike under the nazis " and made similar claims to those above.

Thanks to whoever posted about the two distinct jewish groupings. Filled in a black spot in my historical knowledge, however I stick by the thesis that the largest group of eastern europea jewry (not sure what the word is) came about in the dark ages.

This fella ain't WLRW R_R
this ome shows signs of intelligence.

albo87 Posted on 28/10 22:16
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

This is a proper footie board, Capt_Swin. Footie is what we all have in common, then we argue the toss over everything else! Great, eh?

I must admit I missed the Swindon game. After what the Swindon mayor said about the Palestinians, I'll never watch them again.

RobbieProsinecki Posted on 28/10 22:18
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

Commisar, if you still don't know who I am *cough* look at speckyget's post *cough*

and I wouldn't expect anything else from someone with a name like Cheeses Christ.

Arnold_Rimmer Posted on 28/10 22:19
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

So does that mean that if your enemy attacks you you have the right to not only defend yourself but also take what you can of his?

petrio Posted on 28/10 22:21
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

mox, just go back to posting under your old name.

RobbieProsinecki Posted on 28/10 22:27
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

What it means Arnold, is that if you attack a country, and you lose some land as a result, well thats your fault for attacking that country! Israel should have kept that land as compensation for the dead caused by that war, also act as a buffer zone between future aggression.

But, my opinion notwithstanding, what do you think would have happened if the Pan-Arab forces (Egypt/Jordan/Syria) had defeated Israel and conquered it?

Cheeses_Christ Posted on 28/10 22:29
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

As I was saying, grade A tit!

RobbieProsinecki Posted on 28/10 22:30
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

Are you going to add to this debate or not?

Cheeses_Christ Posted on 28/10 22:33
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

Ok. You're a sad little freak as well

Arnold_Rimmer Posted on 28/10 22:33
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

I don't know as much about it as you do Robbie but I know that the Security Council needs all five permanent members to vote in favour including America so it seems that everyone thought that Israel should withdraw to the borders before 1967. Would Israel not look so much better and marginalise the Palestinian cause so much more by doing that and taking the moral high ground, even after 37 years of occupation and bloodshed (on both sides)?

Arnold_Rimmer Posted on 28/10 22:34
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

petrio is that comment about old name to me? I don't understand.

RobbieProsinecki Posted on 28/10 23:57
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

Cheeses, who is the sad one? The person who has a genuine interest in the world around him and therefore wants to discuss one of life's major issues, or the person who gets thrills out of typing insults onto message boards?
--
Arnold, I reckon Israel has, and is continuing to show, magnamity (sp). It could, theoretically, taken the Sinai as the spoils of war and simply made it part of Israel, indeed it established settlements to try and do this. But in the end it gave it back. This policy of giving something back that it doesn't need to, is reflected in the dismantling of settlements that is being pushed through as we speak to stabilise Gaza.

And my question to you Arnold, remains. Had Egypt defeated and took over Israel, what would have happened? Would Egypt have shown any mercy?

Arnold_Rimmer Posted on 29/10 6:43
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

Like I said, you know much more than me and I don't know of egypt's intetnions at that time, but I am trying to wrok out what needs to happen NOW for the situation to be resolved and as far as I can see surely your attitude to hit them harder is only going to prolong the problem?

zaphod Posted on 29/10 11:29
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

The Sinai was handed back as part of the peace deal with Egypt, which Egypt has faithfully observed. They didn't want Gaza back, just like Jordan doesn't want the West Bank back.

It is an unfortunate fact of life that the people who suffer in wars are not those who take the decisions to start the wars. The Palestinians are the biggest victims in all this. They didn't ask the Jews to take over their place. Some Palestinians are terrorists and Yasser Arafat is a disaster, but that doesn't mean all Palestinians have to be treated like dirt.

Arnold_Rimmer Posted on 29/10 14:12
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

Robbie do you think that the Elon Plan will really bring peace? Or do you accept that there is a grain of truth in the statement quoted earlier about an eye for an eye leaving the whoile world blind?

RobbieProsinecki Posted on 29/10 14:21
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

I genuinely believe it will bring peace, for many reasons.

Firstly, it creates a balance of power, between a strong Israel and a strong Jordan, in effect a strong Jewish state and a strong Palestinian state. The key point is that Jordan is already a Palestinian state, so you can see why Israel object to the creation of another.

Also, it means that the hundreds of thousands of refugees have a place to rebuild their lives, finally they have permanenet homes instead of worrying about the day-to-day and more importantly, it removes the atmosphere of hate that terrorism thrives on.

Then of course, is the fact that the Elon plan would remove once and for all the threat of the PLO, Hamas, Islamic Jihad etc, meaning Israel doesn't have to have incursions/raids etc, and doesn't need to have a war mentality.

Finally, it solves the crisis once and for all. Instead of muddling along with Road Maps, or UN resolutions, suicide bombings/incursions etc, its a case of rolling your sleeves up and saying right, This be Israel, that be Jordan. This is the Israeli state, that is the Palestinian state. End of.

Scrote Posted on 29/10 14:45
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

mox - the main problem with elon's plan is that it is unworkable on a personal level - you can't shift people from their homes and expect them to accept that it is "for their own good" when it clearly isn't - the elon plan assumes israeli strength is the only factor in how a peace plan is decided

do you think england should only have allowed devolution in scotland if all the descendents of scottish people who have lived in england since roman times were "relocated" back to the their "homeland"?

how is the above scenario different to the elon plan?

Arnold_Rimmer Posted on 29/10 15:01
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

Robbie I would like to thank you for continuing the debate for so long thereby confirming that you are guilty not only of being a cufking Tory Boy plank but also a grade A hypocrite in that if I had used my normal username you wouldn't have answered any of my questions.

Now fck off and get a balanced viewpoint. There's loons on both sides and people like you taking the one's right one's wrong attitude are the reason the conflict has persisted for so long.

That's all.

Arnold_Rimmer Posted on 29/10 15:05
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

(I should add that it's hypocrisy because you are the one who always accuses us of reacting to a username rather than what is being posted)

(Now that really is all)

RobbieProsinecki Posted on 29/10 15:06
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

If I was using my normal username this thread wouldn't have got off the ground so there is hypocrites all round. I take it that you have ran out of interesting/constructive things to say so you turn to insults? Must be Norfolk then. Leave the debating to those who can.

Scrote, English and Scottish people can leave side by side in peace. Thats the difference.

Buddy Posted on 29/10 15:09
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

No, I ran out of patience with an attitude that refuses to accept that there might be two sides to a story. And your other point is bollix because you were sussed after six posts on the thread.

RobbieProsinecki Posted on 29/10 15:12
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

Buddy = Norfolk?

Buddy Posted on 29/10 15:12
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

Daft with it........

RobbieProsinecki Posted on 29/10 15:14
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

You're nicked. Bet it was fun while it lasted though, eh?

NorfolknGood so you can insult other people freely and Buddy your respectable (ha!) alter-ego.

Buddy Posted on 29/10 15:24
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

I strongly resent the suggestion that I can't insult people when necessary.

MOX YOU ARE A FRUIT-LOOP

See?

(I am also littlejimmy and Buggerlugs (x8) by the way, might as well get everything out in the open now)

Buddy Posted on 29/10 15:27
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

Oh and while we're on the subject:

Zionism
/ziniz’m/

• noun a movement for the development and protection of a Jewish nation in Israel.

— DERIVATIVES Zionist noun and adjective.

anti-Semitism

• noun hostility to or prejudice against Jews.

— DERIVATIVES anti-Semite noun anti-Semitic adjective.

Learn the difference.

Scrote Posted on 29/10 16:15
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

i take it then that your answer to the first question is no?

based solely on the fact that after years and years of fighting the stronger side finally grew up and realised that being less aggressive might help both sides??

Azedarac Posted on 29/10 17:28
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

"Scrote, English and Scottish people can leave (sic) side by side in peace. Thats the difference."

Perhaps if the English displaced the Scottish into refugee camps, bulldozed their houses, or if the Scottish sent suicide bombers into England, we wouldn't live side by side in peace either.

I'm a strong believer that most people will be behave reasonably until their circustances drive them to behave otherwise. In your explanation Israelis and Palestinians are inherently unable to get on. What makes them different to English, American, Nepalese or any other race? Their situation. The situation CAN be changed, and you'd find within a generation the prejudice and fear would die. Are you still afraid of the Germans or Japanese or even Russians? The idea that two races are inherently incapable of sharing a state is dangerously close to racism, i.e. judging what they can or can't do by their race.

I'm not saying it would be easy, but the first step is for bitter old men like Arafat and Sharon to either put aside their prejudice, or stand aside for men who WANT peace. In most wars, young men die because old men can't get on.

RobbieProsinecki Posted on 29/10 22:37
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

Buddy/Norfolk, quote the dictionary if you want (probably better than your endless misquotes from 1984) but I am right about your secret identity aren't I. You've been sussed.

red_rebel Posted on 29/10 22:50
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

"Benny Elon of the far-right Moledet party this week launched a campaign advocating "transfer, voluntary or otherwise" a euphemism for expulsion".

So, the Elon plan is to liquidate Palestinian statehood and ethnic cleansing? As you say it is a solution. I might suggest a final one but that would be in bad taste.

RobbieProsinecki Posted on 29/10 23:13
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

Not only would it be in bad tase, but also in wrong taste. You're comparing a policy of moving people, with a policy of systematic extermination. Hardly a good comparison is it?

Buggerlugs Posted on 29/10 23:52
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

Odious and blinkered

red_rebel Posted on 29/10 23:59
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

You were supposed to question the quote and denounce it as extremist. It is mind. Its from the Christian Science Monitor.

As for the policy of ethnic cleansing, while I am making snide remarks about it, you appear to be supporting it.

Buggerlugs. I agree. I always defended Moxy but this rebranding is nastier and tasteless and without the naive iconic charm of the original. He is like the new Coke of our cyner squabble. And you know how that turned out.

Buggerlugs Posted on 30/10 0:03
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

I was on about you Rebel

red_rebel Posted on 30/10 0:07
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

Why I oughta...

RobbieProsinecki Posted on 30/10 0:11
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

If you and people like you hadn't made it so difficult for moxzin to post, perhaps there wouldn't need to be a rebranding. Anyway, this is merely a transitory period, soon I'll have disappeared from your Radar completely so you can talk about the Great Satan in peace.

Gillandi Posted on 30/10 0:13
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)






Maybe the discussion has gone as far as it can and the the two sides of the debate can agree to disagree like gentlemen.

If I can change the pace and the subject of the debate, i'd be interested to know if Mr Prosinecki has, as someone who seems to have great faith in the motives of the USA and Isreal, been watching Adam Curtis' "Power Of Nightmares" documentaries so far and what he has thought of them?



--- Post edited by Gillandi on 30/10 0:14 ---

RobbieProsinecki Posted on 30/10 0:16
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

No. I haven't.

red_rebel Posted on 30/10 0:26
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

Mox, you have a scattergun approach to people who disagree with you, lumping them all into one big bad wolf of an enemy, building up an image of sinister forces out to get you.

Maybe this helps you rationalise your own position as a putative beacon of reason but it undermines your intellectual position.

I have always defended your right to take a neo-con position from those who just denouce you as precocious Toryboy.

I have welcomed your a) giving the left a chance to articulate their positions on the issues of the day; and b) portraying the right as unfeeling, blinkered, unprincipled and hypocritical.

But no more. I think your new incarnation has gone beyond the pale. You are no longer interested in legitimate debate. You are just looking to provoke in order to bump up the post count and validate your empty existance as the board pariah.

Buggerlugs Posted on 30/10 0:31
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

"If you and people like you hadn't made it so difficult for moxzin to post, perhaps there wouldn't need to be a rebranding"

Get a grip of yourself you little tit. You couldn't stand being exposed for what you are and threw a hissy fit. As Moxzin I always found you detestable but I think I also had a sneaking admiratition for you. I thought you had a big brain and big balls for a teenager but your rebirth has just confirmed what an obnoxious horrible little c_unt you are.

Sorry to be vulgar and basic but I am so very tired of you and your pish poor arguments cut and pasted from other sites.

RobbieProsinecki Posted on 30/10 0:38
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

Is there something missing in your lives that you feel the need to go around picking online fights?

Buggerlugs Posted on 30/10 0:42
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

I am missing an unreasonable arrogant objectionable humourless pompous little nerd to beat up on. That is why I pick on you Mox

--- Post edited by Buggerlugs on 30/10 0:43 ---

RobbieProsinecki Posted on 30/10 0:53
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

Lets be honest with ourselves.

You list all my alleged character failings that you've managed to deduce from how I post on here. But you know as well I do, that it wouldn't matter at all if I was arrogant/pompous etc if I held the same views as you.

If I had pompously and arrogantly defended the Palestinian cause on this thread, would you be complaining? No.

There-in lies the point, the problem you have is not with me at all, but with my views, which is sad, but the two should be seperated.

Case in point. I'm humourless. But I've never seen red_rebel crack a joke on here or do anything non-serious. Look at the opening address of the ra-ra thread for pomposity. But I'm the one breaking into Blackadder and I'm the one thats humourless.

Buggerlugs Posted on 30/10 1:04
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

Funnily enough when you posted that earlier I nearly posted a "shock horror: Moxzin in humourous remark scandal". I wish I did now.

Honestly Mox, you really do have a horrible attitude. I'm not being spiteful there but you have. Sadly I reckon you are in for a lifetime of slaps unless you address it.

Scrote Posted on 30/10 2:06
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

mox - ignore that lot and answer the question

or do you think by addressing them you can avoid it like you usually do?

Grumpy_Paul Posted on 30/10 2:26
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

Why do so many people refer to UN security council resoloutions
The UN is an insignificant waste of time and money
Most countries go their own way regardless of the UN.
They try to use the UN for legitemacy purposes only. Other than that, they ignore the UN. Not only the Yanks.
An irrelavent failed (sadly) organisation in today's world

RobbieProsinecki Posted on 30/10 11:25
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

Point is Buggerlugs, yet again you're guilty of viewing this message board, and real life, as one. Just because I'm just a believer of being to the point and having convictions on here, it doesn't mean thats how I talk to people in real life does it?

Stop psycho-analysing people, and stop taking it all so seriously.

The_Commisar Posted on 30/10 11:34
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

Mox

" Just because I'm just a believer of being to the point and having convictions on here, it doesn't mean thats how I talk to people in real life does it? "

Lets come to the point, your pro-Israeli stance is appauling. Unjustifiable on just about any grounds.

You almost certainly don't behave like this in the real world as you would get slapped.


if I read your last post it comes across as

RobbieProsinecki Posted on 30/10 11:40
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

'Appalling'...don't you think thats an exaggeration? I've just put across one side of the argument. I'd again wager that red_rebel and albo continuing unadulterated hate of Israel is more extreme and more appalling.

I don't think I've said anything untoward, and I've tried to back up what I've said.

Trust me, there are more appalling things out there to read. This is just reasoned debate and you have to accept there will be two opposing sides.

littlejimmy Posted on 30/10 14:31
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

Seems I've missed all the fun.

So you're only picked on because of your views? Rubbish. People tell me all the time that I'm pompous and superior, even though I'm a leftie.

You're paranoid and delusional, but at least you used to be worth arguing with. Now you've come back even worse.

The_Commisar Posted on 30/10 14:43
re: USA and Israel (the hatred of)

Look, if you can come up with a word other than "appauling" to descrive on-going support for a pariah state then I'll happily use it.

It's not debate as by definition debate involves listening to the other sides views, your not listening.

Your a borderline facist whose opinions are intolerable to a large section of the population.