permalink for this thread :
20_Briggsy Posted on 1/11 20:19
The American election

One the eve on the American election, who do you want and think who will win?

I think Bush will win a second term, in controversial terms again.

I want Kerry to win though, fingers crossed.

forza_boro Posted on 1/11 20:22
re: The American election

why kerry?

i want a valid reason not just because you dislike bush

RobbieProsinecki Posted on 1/11 20:24
re: The American election

I fully expect and hope for a George W. Bush victory.

This is the complete opposite to how I felt a few months ago, I was a staunch Kerry fan, but now I believe America needs strong leadership.

--- Post edited by RobbieProsinecki on 1/11 20:26 ---

guyb Posted on 1/11 20:25
re: The American election

Want Kerry
Think Kerry.

Reasons - Internationalist, not isolationist. Understands the problem with Iraq and will work to build a consensus, not deny that anything is going wrong. He understands the damage done by Guantanamo Bay and Abu Gharib and will take steps to rectify these issues. He will also not give Israel the free hand that Bush has. And by planning an international response to Iraq he will avert a draft.

Also, being an actual serving war hero who spoke out on the evils of war after fighting in one, his word will carry more weight than a draft-dodger.

He favours stem-cell research giving hope to illness sufferers everywhere and While a practicing Catholic, he prefers to let people live their own lives in cases of gay marriage and abortion rather than let dogma and political expediency inform his decisions.

He has a health care plan to help the poor and uninsured, not leave them to the ravages of the system, Bush has already said he plans to privatise the social security system.

He plans to reverse the tax cuts Bush gave his super-rich buddies but will keep measures that have helped people earning under $200,000 a year (the majority).

He allows his decisions to be informed by knowledge, evidence and experience not faith and ideology.

I think pollsters are underestimating the turnout and the number of new voters. Even Fox News are giving Kerry a 2% lead tonight.

--- Post edited by guyb on 1/11 20:32 ---

Link: Salon - clued up American site

guyb Posted on 1/11 20:33
re: The American election

fao Robbie - I agree, America needs strong leadership but a strong leader recognises when he is ploughing on in the wrong direction and changes course accordingly.

Don't confuse strength with arrogance and Obstinance.

20_Briggsy Posted on 1/11 20:35
re: The American election

I just dont like Bush, especially after the way he was elected into office

And over Iraq, Bush missled us all.

Kerry seems to have more integrity about him. I believe Kerry would have got the international community more involved over the war with Iraq.

RobbieProsinecki Posted on 1/11 20:36
re: The American election

Don't want to get into an argument about it. I'm expecting there'll be a lot of people who disagree, due to the nature of posters on this board.

But I agree with a lot of the values that the Republicans and George Bush represent, and make of that what you will.

PhillyMac Posted on 1/11 20:36
re: The American election

Want Kerry, think Kerry.

Forza: I think that believing that Bush's leadership is (a) incompetent and (b) dangerous is reason enough.

Other reasons:

I'd like a more collaborative approach to international issues (terror, Iraq, nuclear proliferation, environment, trade)

I'd like a balanced budget, or a more balanced one at least. 50% of the money from the last tax cut went to the richest 1% - Bush's "leave no rich person behind" plan.

I'd like to see an emphasis placed on domestic security rather than starting wars elsewhere under the guise of 'terror'. Things like border and coastal security, cargo scanning, watch lists, etc.


I think Kerry's going to eek out 2 or possibly 3 out of Florida, Ohio and Pennsylvania...I think it's going to look quite one-sided in the electoral college (maybe 290 or 300 votes), even though he might only win the popular vote by 1 or 2 percent.

Nedkat Posted on 1/11 20:50
re: The American election

Somewhere in Texas, there's a village that's been without their idiot for too long !!

Bush is a moron, who is ruining the environment, and wasting young people's lives in a war that was unlawful and incorrect !!


Juventus Posted on 1/11 20:58
re: The American election

In a perfect world neither of them would be elected and Bill Clinton would take office. Both of them are sh** candidates. It's like having to choose to have sex with either Pat Butcher or Dot Cotton. Kerry's the best of a bad bunch (if you can call a pair a bunch).

LEATHERFACE Posted on 1/11 21:03
re: The American election

i hope bush wins for the sake of life as we know it

20_Briggsy Posted on 1/11 21:05
re: The American election

You gotta laugh.

Nedkat Posted on 1/11 21:10
re: The American election

Clinton was an excellent President, but the thinking man would always vote for Kerry.

Nisko Posted on 1/11 21:18
re: The American election

Kerry, I think he'll be better for the international community except maybe us, I think he'll probably try and patch up relations with Europe, possibly at the detriment to our 'special relationship' (ey up).

I note however, that I agree more with Bush's standpoint on the moral values side of things (gay marriage etc) but I can't help thinking that its not put on to win the evangelical vote, hes telling them exactly what they want to hear (though apparently he is a strong Christian). I don't doubt that Kerry is sincere in his standpoints, even if I may disagree with them.

Nisko Posted on 1/11 21:19
re: The American election

But I think Juventus has actually hit the proverbial nail on the head.

boro74 Posted on 1/11 21:28
re: The American election

Iīm just watching 9/11. I canīt understand how anyone thatīs seen this film could vote for Bush. Unfortunately itīs all about money. Which is probably why Bush will win.

Buddy Posted on 1/11 21:37
re: The American election

Strictly speaking Ned, the village sans idiot is in Connecticut. They only went to Texas following the oil (no change there then). But Juve's got it about spot on if y'all askin' me.

Nedkat Posted on 1/11 21:40
re: The American election


Link: The world sees it this way ...

Gillandi Posted on 1/11 22:09
re: The American election

Think Bush.
Want Kerry.

Reason: I don't like religious fundamentalists involved in government.

"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own." Thomas Jefferson, 1814.

littlejimmy Posted on 1/11 22:40
re: The American election

Anyone who thinks God has put him in the White House shouldn't be there. Get rid of the chimp. Pray for a Kerry win.

WilmslowRed Posted on 1/11 22:42
re: The American election

We need an American President who doesn't hear voices in his head and I don't mean when he's wired up in Presidential debates either. No religious fundamentalists in the White House for me please.

red_rebel Posted on 1/11 23:08
re: The American election

Think Bush. By a legally assisted whisker again.

Want revolution. Kerry is a safe suit bought and paid for by big business. His position on Iraq and the war on terror is that he would execute it more efficiently.

His domestic policy is minor tinkering on welfare and some progress on gender politics but no fundemental changes in the political or economic structure.

That saidm reluctently In the short term tactically I would hope people in the marginal states voted Kerry as a stop Bush move.

Elsewhere I would advocate a vote for Walt Smith, the candidate of the US Socialist Party as a step towards building a mass labour movement for genuine change.

--- Post edited by red_rebel on 1/11 23:09 ---

RobbieProsinecki Posted on 1/11 23:21
re: The American election

So thats what he's been doing since Everton sacked him.

dunf0rt Posted on 1/11 23:22
re: The American election

Nader called Bush a messianic militarist and I think that sums him up pretty well.

the_lodger Posted on 1/11 23:28
re: The American election

FMTTM does have some very good debates

This isnt one of them.

Who gives a flying?

After all we dont even care who the next PM should be.

pisces Posted on 1/11 23:35
re: The American election

Think Kerry
Want Kerry

Long live Michael Moore.

jax_1 Posted on 2/11 0:07
re: The American election

Hope Kerry
Frightened to death Bush gets in again.
The man is a dangerous loonatic and should be in an assylum or else posting here, which is near enough to the same thing .
As has already been pointed out on this thread, the man is nothing more than a village idiot.
Before he started to tell the rest of the world what to do, he should have put his own house in order first. The same goes for T.B.Liar.

dooderooni Posted on 2/11 2:45
re: The American election

Hope Kerry wins it or else we're going to hell in a handcart and good 'ol Dubya will be pushing it.
After liberating Afghanistan and Iraq who is going to be next on the imperialistic list?
I've just seen him addressing a rally in New Mexico. His speech was the same speech he gave last night to the people of Ohio. All he did was change the names of the Senators and Governors. He even smiled to people off camera at the same points in his speech.
With him out of the Whitehouse maybe our special relationship with the US will suffer but will that be a bad thing? Being a leading nation in europe has got to be better than being toady to the US.

--- Post edited by dooderooni on 2/11 2:46 ---

dooderooni Posted on 2/11 2:57
re: The American election

I'll give you this about Dubya though.

Link: Bush goggles

blondie_dcfc Posted on 2/11 3:11
re: The American election

Am still chuckling away at gillandi's post:

Think Bush.
Want Kerry.


BostonIdol Posted on 2/11 3:47
re: The American election


George W. Bush has:

1) Invaded a sovereign nation, and toppled the government thereof on the basis of lies while doing absolutely nothing to help the people of the country he is supposedly "liberating".

2) Held at least two American citizens in military custody for an extended period of time, with no charges filed and no meaningful access to counsel.

3) Established a "detention center" intentionally situated beyond the territorial jurisdiction of the Federal Courts.

4) Wiped his arse with the U.S. Constitution at every opportunity.

5) Endorsed a Constitutional Amendment to ban gay marriage.

6) Endorsed the Patriot Act, part of which has already been declared unconstitutional and the rest of which should be repealed as soon as possible.

7) Apparently forgotten about Osama Bin Laden (at least until that tape conveniently turned up) and those responsible for the attacks of 9/11/01.

8) Solicited the membership rolls of conservative churches for partisan political purposes, and caused to be distributed a "List of Duties" for "Christian Voters".

9) Pushed through a series of ill-advised tax cuts, reducing income while increasing spending.

10) Apparently condoned a pattern of intimidation against minority voters in Florida.

On top of this he believes in the book of Revelations, as in, the "End Days" where the end of the world will occur in the Middle East. He says God "talks to him" and that "the jury is still out" on human evolution. Far be it from me to jump to conclusions but I'm not the first person to add these things up and see a very frightening answer.

How people think he will lead the world to safety when all he has done is rush headlong into a war he desperately wanted I really don't know. This is a man who hid himself away from facing any real danger in his life while Kerry, who gets portrayed as this useless pussy, went to fight a war and then had the balls to stand up and discuss the atrocities he had seen.

I might point out that Kerry is hardly my ideal candidate but he is at least an intelligent man who understands war. I don't consider myself a Republican or a Democrat, a liberal or a conservative. I don't think anything in life should be so clear cut that it can be divided into worthless little labels. However, Bush is a moron and incredibly dangerous, even more so are the people using him as a tool for their own gain. He simply must be removed but unfortunately I have little doubt that he will use the courts to stay in power.

--- Post edited by BostonIdol on 2/11 3:48 ---

bungydinsdale Posted on 2/11 4:53
re: The American election

Let's see...a choice between a far right bully (Bush) and a not quite as far right "democrat"...difficult choice that one as their politics are pretty much anathema to's sad to think that we have to take such an interest in what the Yanks decide, but the fact is that whoever it is has the fate of the entire world in their hands, so for that I'd rather have Kerry...
anybody who thinks that Bush is a dove who wants world peace is as stupid as they are naive...his SOLE justification for going into Iraq was that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction..he said they knew this for a fact, yet the fact is that there are no WMD there...
so does Bush do what any self respecting human being would do and say "sorry I was wrong and we shouldn't have gone in"???
of course not...he says okay there were no WMD, but it is a just and right war cos we got rid of a dictator and liberated the people of Iraq..
That's crap...Saddam was supported in his brutal regime for almost two decades by the Yanks (and to lesser extent the Brits)cos he was their "enemy's enemy" when he was fighting Iraq...The Yanks (and to lesser extent the Brits) conveniently turned a blind eye to the atrocities he commited against his own people during that support cos he was keeping the Iranian fundamentalists a bay...
Incidently Osama Bin Laden and his fundamentalist cronies were funded and supported by the Yanks for years when he was fighting the Russians in Afghanistan (fundamentalists were obviously not as big a threat as the Ruskis, eh) of course he's turned around and bitten the hand that fed him...
The old phrase "as you sow so shall you reap" comes to mind...
the real saddest part is that it's the innocent American people who get blown up, shot up and beheaded, while the power-hungry bastids that caused all the problems are tucked up safely in their bunkers back in the US..
When a leader is prepared to go to the frontline himself to "fight terror" he'll get my support..
Any takers Mr Bush??? no I thought not...

John_Hickton Posted on 2/11 6:19
re: The American election

I think people are relying to much on the opinion polls, nothing is written on stone yet. I'm expecting a lot of last minute voters to turn out and turf Bush out.

In short he's the worst President of modern times and I think Kerry will defeat him.

zaphod Posted on 2/11 7:33
re: The American election

I want Bush to win the popular vote, but lose the electoral college, just to see how he reacts.

I really think that Kerry would only be marginally better than Bush, because the US as a whole has lost touch with the rest of the world.

Buggerlugs Posted on 2/11 8:27
re: The American election

Think Bush, prefer Kerry although I think the affect of a change would be minimal. Kerry and Bush are pretty much cut from the same cloth it's just that Kerry has that air of sophistication prefered by Europeans whilst Dubya has the good old boy straight talking attitude preferred by middle America.

When do the first results start filtering through?

heaton_mersey_boro Posted on 2/11 8:43
re: The American election

This is a very, very strange, but...

For the past 80 ish years the outcome of the election has been "determined" by the result of the Washington Redskins playing their last match before the elections.

If they win, the current President stays for another term (ie Bush)

If they lose, a new President takes over (Kerry)

They lost against the Green Bay Packers on Sunday.......

Chutney Posted on 2/11 9:01
re: The American election

I think it was Noam Chomsky who said that no US president since the war has been innocent of committing at least one genocidal act whilst in office.

I'm not sure it makes a whole load of difference - big business has more power than government anyway, and it doesn't need to get elected every four years.

That said, Bush's religious fundamentalism, sledge hammer approach to international relations and prejudiced views on homosexuality certainly make him the candidate I'd be happier to see getting beat.

scuzzmonster Posted on 2/11 9:28
re: The American election

Kerry will win 'cos he was wearing a BoSox cap yesterday.

WilmslowRed Posted on 2/11 9:30
re: The American election

Great line in The Independent this morning -

'A choice between Metro America and Retro America'

The_Goatie Posted on 2/11 9:33
re: The American election

This is what I call a car crash election. Whatever happens does not excite me at all. Whoever gets in will be controlled by the opposition in the Senate so the result is academic for the way of the world.

Red_Clowne Posted on 2/11 12:01
re: The American election

Think Bush
Want Kerry

Don't put too much weight on those polls. Remember the late eighties when no-one would admit they voted for Thatcher and yet the country returned her twice to Number 10? The same could happen today across the pond.

Kilburn Posted on 2/11 12:15
re: The American election

The difference between Bush and Kerry supporters is as clear in this thread as it has been in all the election coverage.

When asked "Why Kerry?", Kerry supporters come out with detailed explanations of what Bush has done wrong, and what Kerry will do that's better.

When asked "Why Bush?", Bush supporters come out with raw statements like "He is a strong leader", "He will keep us safe", but very rarely explain the reasons behind their support.

Bush appeals to people who don't want to get into the difficult details, or hear complex explanations, but just want a simple message and firm leadership.

The stupid, basically.

red_rebel Posted on 2/11 12:28
re: The American election


Those who want strong leaditude. And securousness.

--- Post edited by red_rebel on 2/11 12:30 ---

littlejimmy Posted on 2/11 13:41
re: The American election

Just watched Farenheit 9/11 and am very angry. Bush is a C_unt.

RobbieProsinecki Posted on 2/11 15:47
re: The American election

Kilburn you are one patronising bar steward. Another one who thinks he makes up some kind of intelligentsia.

And littlejimmy, you watching Fahrenheit and thinking Bush is a c_unt is a bit like reading the Daily Mail and thinking asylum seekers are c_unts.

--- Post edited by RobbieProsinecki on 2/11 15:47 ---

Buddy Posted on 2/11 15:49
re: The American election

Resorting to insults without constructive debate Surely not. Pot, kettle, etc etc...........

blotonthelandscape Posted on 2/11 15:49
re: The American election

Jimmy, believing Farenheit 9/11 is a bit like reading Private Eye and accepting all that it says.

9/10 crap 1/10 substance.

RobbieProsinecki Posted on 2/11 15:51
re: The American election

Buddy, I presume you meant that ironically? Being it in response to Kilburn's post insulting half the American people and half the people on this thread.

Look at his post. Is it or is it not patronising in the extreme?

Kilburn Posted on 2/11 15:52
re: The American election

"Kilburn you are one patronising bar steward. Another one who thinks he makes up some kind of intelligentsia."

Cheers Robbie.

Classic Bush-ist debating tactic. Start with an insult, then make a sweeping generalisation. Mebbe you could try questioning my masculinity next?

RobbieProsinecki Posted on 2/11 15:53
re: The American election

Okay then, take out the bar steward bit.

Kilburn, you are patronising.

Can't see anyone disputing that.

Kilburn Posted on 2/11 15:55
re: The American election

My last sentence was patronising, I admit.

The rest was accurate observation, if you look up the thread.

scuzzmonster Posted on 2/11 15:56
re: The American election

I can. It's all about to kick-off. Again.

Gillandi Posted on 2/11 15:57
re: The American election

I've just listened to the audio book of Moores "Will They Ever Trust Us Again", a selection of letters from serving American military in Iraq and the "C" word is never used but the message is loud and clear what they think of George Bush.

A guy set up a book charity for the troops over there. 10's of thousands of donated books are sent out every week. Most requested books of Fiction? Stephen King. Most requested books of Non-Fiction? Michael Moore.

Like him or not, he's having an influence.

And hasn't time shown that his Oscar speech was bang on?

BTW regardless of your political persuasion I defy anyone not to cry for the troops out there when you hear them describe it in their own words.

RobbieProsinecki Posted on 2/11 15:59
re: The American election

Still, seeing as you brought the issue of generalisations up, you make use of a hell of a lot of them.

When I watch the news tonight, I will be watching out for the intellectuals (will they be wearing glasses?) and seeing there response to why they voted for Kerry. I'm expecting a full spoken thesis, in iambic pentameter, as to their reasons and statistics.

Then the Bush voter, in his cowboy hat, will just shout "yee haw" and fire his shotgun in the air.

Kilburn Posted on 2/11 16:07
re: The American election

A touch extreme, but I think you may not be too disappointed.

I was actually hoping that my original post would provoke someone from the Bush side of the fence to give a reasoned and detailed argument in his favour.

Gillandi Posted on 2/11 16:11
re: The American election

Someone without a personal agenda you mean Kilburn?

Not on this board i'm afraid, Robbie has bigger fish to fry.

RobbieProsinecki Posted on 2/11 16:13
re: The American election

How have I got a personal agenda exactly?

I've already stated in plain English why I want George Bush, and I've also stated that I don't want a massive argument that will go on for ever and will eventually end up in "moxzin you are a complete c_unt" like it always does.

Kilburn Posted on 2/11 16:19
re: The American election

Fair enough Robbie, I think I've got enough of a grasp of this board's history to understand your reluctance to being drawn into more of a debate.

Any more takers out there to actually explain in detail why they would back Bush?

Buddy Posted on 2/11 16:19
re: The American election

Good job you got it in early then.

Am I to understand that " I agree with a lot of the values that the Republicans and George Bush represent, and make of that what you will." is the sum of your reasoning?

RobbieProsinecki Posted on 2/11 16:21
re: The American election

I thought it was pretty self-explanatory to be fair.

Buddy Posted on 2/11 16:24
re: The American election

OK then, which values in particular?

Gillandi Posted on 2/11 16:28
re: The American election

Can I settle the Buddy/Robbie dispute out of court?

Buddy, I owe you 35p, go buy todays Daily mail if you want to know what Prosinecki thinks. We don't need it all cutting and pasting into here thanks.

RobbieProsinecki Posted on 2/11 16:30
re: The American election

I've already used the Daily Mail once in this that all you've got?

Gillandi Posted on 2/11 16:34
re: The American election

"Is that all you've got?" Is becoming a bit of a catch phrase for you Robbie.

Is that all YOU'VE got?

How about adding "Do you want a piece of me?" to your repartoir.

RobbieProsinecki Posted on 2/11 16:36
re: The American election

Daily Mail...toryboy...(yawn)

I'm half expecting you to say gobshite next.

You should know that the more you use these (every thread more or less) the less effect they have.

red_rebel Posted on 2/11 16:47
re: The American election

Bush values:

tax cuts for rich, tax increases for poor

more money for prisons, less for schools

end of international law

end of civil liberties

end of environmental controls on th eoil industry

military and political startegy in hands of big business

agreeing to rip up Middle-east 'road map'.

Buddy Posted on 2/11 16:49
re: The American election

Arguing about epithets and stereotypes doesn't really answer the question though does it? Or shall we go with rebel's list?

Kilburn Posted on 2/11 16:51
re: The American election

Nope, sorry, you're not really selling it to me red_rebel....

RobbieProsinecki Posted on 2/11 16:54
re: The American election

How can you take that list seriously when it says "end of civil liberties"?

Gillandi Posted on 2/11 16:55
re: The American election

Robbie - I've never called you "Toryboy" on here and I've likened your posts/editorials in the past to the kind of stances taken by the Daily Mail (ie loaded and ill informed) only about 4 times in the last 2 years so I refute your allegations of over-use. However, I am interested to know what power such words have had over you in the past if, as you say, it is diminishing with over use.

--- Post edited by Gillandi on 2/11 17:02 ---

Buddy Posted on 2/11 17:01
re: The American election

Have you read the Patriot Act and the amount of controversy surrounding it?

RobbieProsinecki Posted on 2/11 17:10
re: The American election

I believe the Patriot act was a minor, aesthetic re-aligning of government policy that has been blown way out of proportion. Who cares if the government know what books you've taken out the library. If you've got nothing to hide, you've got nothing to fear. Plus I honestly believe it was a needed reaction to terrorism and will help track down terrorist activity more effectively.

Of course, if you believe Michael Moore, it was a total ripping up of the consititution that no senator/congressman actually read and is used only to spy on Californian cookie clubs.

There has been a lot of controversy but it was all above board and pushed through democratically, hardly Bush's personal whim.

It hasn't meant the "end of civil liberties". If it was the end of civil liberties, there wouldn't be an election.

Timothy McVeigh blew a truck up outside the Federal Buidling in Oklahoma, in part because of tighter government control on guns. Do you really believe that ordinary Americans would stand for any meaningful infringement of their rights? I reckon its what Americans get most passionate about - rights, and government interference. It wouldnt happen.

Anyway, Gillandi, at first I was concerned by being tarred with the Tory brush, as I would never vote Conservative, but when I refuted being a Tory, and it still carried on, I realised it was just a meaningless, lazy tag, not a serious thing.

In the style of Buddy: water, duck, back, off, like, etc

Buddy Posted on 2/11 17:11
re: The American election

By saying "I believe" I assume you mean "No I haven't read it"?

RobbieProsinecki Posted on 2/11 17:13
re: The American election

By talking about my first two words I assume you haven't read my post

Gillandi Posted on 2/11 17:16
re: The American election

"water, duck, back, off, like, etc"

Ah I see, thanks for the explanation. that'll be why you are such a benign and chilled out animal these days.

Laugh? I nearly started.

Kilburn Posted on 2/11 17:17
re: The American election

"If you've got nothing to hide, you've got nothing to fear." - official motto of the Stasi, wasn't it?

Buddy Posted on 2/11 17:19
re: The American election

No, the rest of your post refers to what you know about a digest of the information provided by other sources. That answers the bit of my question about the controversy, but not whether you've read the Act.

I should add that I haven't but I'm not the one saying that civil liberties are fine and dandy.

John_Hickton Posted on 2/11 17:21
re: The American election


Your attitude to Bush reminds me of when Dan Rather was being interviewed by Larry King on CNN. When asked a difficult question on the phone in his response was, "I trust my President".

RobbieProsinecki Posted on 2/11 17:21
re: The American election

Ah right, so because the German secret police used that phrase, no-one else is allowed to use it again, ever.

Kilburn Posted on 2/11 17:25
re: The American election

Well, it hardly inspires confidence in civil liberties when it is used.....

Chutney Posted on 2/11 17:27
re: The American election

What I always loved about moxy was the way he could enter any debate and transform it from an intelligent and reasoned discussion into MEMEMEMEMEMEMEMEMEMEMEMEMEMEMEMEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!

Nedkat Posted on 2/11 17:32
re: The American election

Wow !! I had a little bit of deja Vu reading that .. ???

Gillandi Posted on 2/11 17:44
re: The American election

Can we not manage our resources a bit better here. We have half a dozen people arguing with Robbie all at once but later on there'll be no-one. As it's going to be a hectic few days I propose we organise a shift system so that there is always at least one person putting sane responses to Moxzin's "opinions".

I'm okay for this kind of time and can do the last couple of hours on most nights.

Thanks. carry on.

RobbieProsinecki Posted on 2/11 17:46
re: The American election

Chutney - ???? This is a debate about the Presidential election, I hardly think it is about me.

Why can't we ever just have a debate without all this crap alongside it?

Gillandi Posted on 2/11 17:53
re: The American election

Robbie - You've already said that you've said enough on the subject and that we all know where you stand. Which is true.

How does your post "Kilburn you are one patronising bar steward. Another one who thinks he makes up some kind of intelligentsia" (your first post on this thread today) tally with your last post "Why can't we ever just have a debate without all this crap alongside it?"

Nedkat Posted on 2/11 17:53
re: The American election

Helmets ON !!

Here comes the crap .....

Link: Helmet head

RobbieProsinecki Posted on 2/11 17:55
re: The American election

Er, because he was very, very insulting, Gillandi?

Jeez, going round in circles or what?

Buddy Posted on 2/11 18:01
re: The American election

Right, so forget the crap and give us the Bush/Republican values that you find appealing.

Gillandi Posted on 2/11 18:02
re: The American election

"Very, very insulting"? Are you real? Not to me it wasn't and not just because I believe what he said to be true, I don't but because it was obvious what he was trying to do, invite pro-Bush counter argument, which didn't come. Youve been around long enough to understand things like that. You should know where most people are coming from most of the time or can't you compute info like that about people. For a little boy in Nottingham to be so insulted on behalf of George Bush voters that he has to resort to personal abuse makes you look absolutely ridiculous in my opinion and it's this vendetting on your part (intelligensia? wtf) that ensures that the crap will always follow you around.

RobbieProsinecki Posted on 2/11 18:06
re: The American election

"the crap will always follow you around." is that a reference to you and Buddy? self-depracation, I like it.

Nedkat Posted on 2/11 18:13
re: The American election

The words "appealing" and "Bush/Republican" should not be placed on the same sentence.

Gillandi Posted on 2/11 18:18
re: The American election

Okay, I'll give you that one Robbie but I want to drag a few others down with me. Buggerlugs and Red Rebel, your crap, ooh ah!

Buddy Posted on 2/11 18:19
re: The American election

*waits patiently*

Cheeses_Christ Posted on 2/11 18:21
re: The American election

The scary finger speketh the truth

Link: Hello

Gillandi Posted on 2/11 18:24
re: The American election

Right i'm knocking off for the day lads. It's been a hard days shift.

*hands miners helmet to Buddy*

Wear it, the brick wall is hard at the moment.

Well hard.

Parting shot. If anyone has ever looked at a sexy picture on the internet, George Bush thinks you're a criminal.

--- Post edited by Gillandi on 2/11 18:34 ---

Buddy Posted on 2/11 18:45
re: The American election

*drums fingers on desk*

RobbieProsinecki Posted on 2/11 20:22
re: The American election

Sorry I'm not on your constant beck and call, Buddy. Had a match to play.

Republican policies:

- Lower taxes
- Putting America first in foreign policy, ie, the Kyoto Agreement, International Court - whenever an international agreement conflicts with America, this administration hasn't been a part of it, and I admire that.
- The Iraq War
- Closer ties with Britain
- National promotion, not the inferiority complex of other countries, like this one (I know this sort of ties in with point 2)
- Strong central government

Now, I don't know how the Democrats might go about it differently, but I know for sure that George Bush is a man of conviction and calling, he knows what he is doing is right, he has absolute unshakeable faith in his decisions. Compare this with John Kerry's record (while the smearing of him as a flip-flop politician may be unfair).

The most important reason why George Bush must win, is that we are in the middle of a War on Terror, to change course now would be disastrous. Now we've started it, we HAVE to finish it. John Kerry to me, in the debates I've watched and the speeches I've read, seems to be very wavery on the subject, he talks of getting other countries involved, and the like, and this hesitation could be fatal. George Bush, I believe, will finish the job no question.

As Michael Moore himself said in one of his books "Whats the sense of changing horses in midstream?"

George Bush may be many things, but one thing he isn't is an isolationist, if America was, or simply skirted over issues in summits like I believe Kerry would do, we'd be in a poor position to fight terrorism.

Finally, George Bush the man himself. In an attempt at a stitch-up, a good documentary on TV the other week revealed how much of a Christian he is, I see that as a good thing because it shows that whatever he does, he thinks it is right and moral, and not simply slippery political maneovreing like Kerry.

When I think of John Kerry I just can't help think of that Radiohead song "Electioneering".

On that note, I await:

-picking to pieces of any errors I've made
-more insults

Scrote Posted on 2/11 20:45
re: The American election

just 'cos someone says something doesn't make it true

george bush may be many things but a Christian he is not - not in any normal sense of "being a Christian" at any rate

as for the rest...

- Lower taxes - for whom??

- Putting America first in foreign policy, ie, the Kyoto Agreement, International Court - whenever an international agreement conflicts with America, this administration hasn't been a part of it, and I admire that.

so global agreements on emission and pollution control that don't suit american business policy aren't worth implementing even if they are the only way of averting global catastrophe in the near future - and that is a stance you admire?

detaining individuals on no charge with no access to legal representation and with no legal basis behind their detention is a good thing?

and you try and tell us you aren't just a wind up!

- The Iraq War

an illegal war perpetrated for any number of reasons - none of which were those stated at the outset and none of which benefit anyone but america (and possibly some close allies)

death and destruction on a grand scale against an enemy with little capability to fight back (Christian you say??)

- Closer ties with Britain

you really think bush wouldn't drop us in a millisecond if it served his business buddies purposes?

have you heard of the steel tariffs etc. imposed to keep our steel and other goods out of the US? (this alongside a "free-market" economy)

- National promotion, not the inferiority complex of other countries, like this one (I know this sort of ties in with point 2)

national promotion that gets 90% of the rest of the world to think that the US is the cause of most of the world's current problems (ok i can't prove the 90% but in terms of PR the "national promotion" is of the worst possible sort and it doesn't take a genius to work out why...)

- Strong central government

so strong that individual states can pi$$ about with election results and election procedures (e.g. the college split per state) to ensure the vote is always rigged in favour of one side or the other

and thats just a topical point - the US central govt. is weaker now than it has been in a long time

and doesn't the fact that bush has "absolute unshakeable faith in his decisions" worry you in the slightest??

considering he was wrong over WMD his decision making skills seem slightly flawed - someone willing to admit mistakes might leave the world inhabitable in four years time...

kerry fought in vietnam - bush hid

kerry saw the reality of war first hand and took part in some unpleasent business - bush hid

kerry has vowed to get the iraq situation sorted by whatever means but i doubt he'll be as uncaring about bush over the suffering caused by war - hes seen it and didn't like it

Gillandi Posted on 2/11 20:46
re: The American election

- Lower taxes

For whom? The wealthy. Don't you think they should share the wealth a bit more and help the millions of homeless in every state? I don't think Kerry will do anything to help them either mind but on who's behalf do you think lower taxes are a good thing in America.

- Putting America first in foreign policy, ie, the Kyoto Agreement, International Court - whenever an international agreement conflicts with America, this administration hasn't been a part of it, and I admire that.

You also said that there's one thing you know about George Bush and that he is not isolationist. Doesn't this attitude isolate America at all in the worlds eyes?

- The Iraq War

Do you think the Iraq War has been a great success then yeah?

- Closer ties with Britain

I think thats nonsense and a misnomer. We had very close ties with Bill Clinton and people thought we may losen them when Bush came to power, we didn't. You are buying a myth there.

- National promotion, not the inferiority complex of other countries, like this one (I know this sort of ties in with point 2)


- Strong central government


Chutney Posted on 2/11 20:49
re: The American election

It must be truly frustrating to be so gullible. Not understanding why people can't take you seriously, not having the self-awareness to lift your conceit and allow yourself to be educated.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again - narcissistic crybaby.

PhillyMac Posted on 2/11 20:50
re: The American election

Did the report estimating 100,000 Iraqi civilian casualties during the war (and the resulting 'peace') make it over the pond?


That's over 30 "9/11"s that the US and UK have perpetrated on Iraq.

I was back in the US just after 9/11 and saw first-hand the emotion and patriotism that it rightly stirred up.

Imagine it thirty times over!

guyb Posted on 2/11 20:50
re: The American election

OK - lets see

Lower taxes - for the top 1% (his mates and corupt businesses like Arthur Andersen and Enron)
Putting America first in foreign policy, ie, the Kyoto Agreement, International Court - so riding roughshod over any international attempt to build consensus that doesn't agree with his or his ideological buddies views is good then?

The Iraq War - 100,000 dead, Guantanamo, Abu Gharib etc.

Closer ties with Britain - I don't see how you work this one out. No jobs coming our way, more of our troops in the firing lane and if you've tried to go through US customs recently there is no lane for special relationships.

National promotion, not the inferiority complex of other countries, like this one - Again, I'm not sure where your coming from on this one. Nothing wrong with national pride so long as it isn't detrimental to relationships with others or used as a policy tool (which it is being).

Strong central government - by strong you mean by creating teh biggest budget deficit in histroy? or by being the only administration since Hoover to preside over a net loss of jobs?

I'm not going to go into the gay marriage, abortion, draft issues because they speak for themselves But I was chatting to my Georgia-based US girlfriend last night who confirmed that this election is a battle for Americas soul. It is a battle for people who care about America's place in the world against those who believe in and want to hasten the apocalypse.

I believe in the America of my youth, and the America my Grandad and his siblings went to for 40 years and told me about.

Liberty, Justice, Equality of opportunity, Fairness, Hope.

None of which can be applied to this most egregious and malevolent Neo-Conservative regime.

Bush and his cronies are very lucky that the worst thing that will happen to them in the next 24 hours is unemployment.

If there was any justice, they'd be in orange jumpsuits and being given a first hand inspection of Guantanamo for the impeachable bloody mess their war has created.

--- Post edited by guyb on 2/11 20:53 ---

Gillandi Posted on 2/11 20:58
re: The American election

I know you are probably out playing football again Robbie but i'd like you to expand on your theories regarding Bush's fundamental christianity being a good thing in politics. Give a few examples of previous happy marraiges of the two. Explain it's benefit to none-christians who make up the vast majority in America etc when you get time.

"Why do I want to sit in church half of sunday listening to how I'm going to hell?"

Homer Simpson

Nedkat Posted on 2/11 21:00
re: The American election

Bush - tax breaks for companies who send jobs out of the country. Tax breaks for the top 2% earners, who really need that extra $100,000 in their pay packets.

Bush - has lost more jobs in his term than any president since the great depression in 1929.

Bush - gives out incentives to insurance companies which allow them to screw the general public RIGHT UP THE ASS !!!!

Bush - invaded a middle east country on false information. Losing the lives of thousands of people. Mainly designed to split the middle east to enable the oil hungry buzzards to grab their share of what does not belong to them. He has used the armed forces to benefit himself and his family. Allowed a company called Halliburton to go into Iraq without asking for tenders. Halliburton immediately overcharged the American tax payer millions of dollars in false transport claims. The Vice Pres used to be on the board of Halliburton, Condaleeza Rice used to work for Chevron, one of the major players in the attempt to get oil out of Kasakstan and Usbeckistan, and to a safe port.

Bush - has no plans to make the world safer by making sure the environment is cleaner, in fact he wants to rip the heart out of Alaska to get 6 years of oil reserves out of there.

Bush - Prescription drugs up 40%.

Bush - Unprepared and totally at a loss when 9/11 happened.

Bush - has not made this country safer, despite his "Homeland Security" bullshyte. There has been zero improvements in checking the safety of seaports, zero improvements in checking inbound cargo.

Bush - No child left behind ... ? Talk to the teachers and see what they say about this underfunded and badly prepared piece of sheep's dropping ...

Bush - total and abject failure !!

Oh, and what Chutney said above !!!!!

--- Post edited by Nedkat on 2/11 21:03 ---

RobbieProsinecki Posted on 2/11 21:05
re: The American election

Firstly, rest assurred I will be back to field all these points (but at the moment I have some real essay writing to do - 3 of them).

I'd just like to say - Chutney and Gillandi, how pathetic. First of all, insults like those from Chutney - very predictable, I said at the bottom of my posts how I was expecting them. If you can't debate something in an adult way, leave it to those who can! Now, Gillandi, after all this cutting the crap spiel you gave, is it really on to be taking the pi55 regards football? Jealous that you can't play any more or something? On another note, is "Whatever" really a good argument? Is that the best you can do?

Je retournerai...

Nedkat Posted on 2/11 21:06
re: The American election

Gerron' with yer essays, and make sure they don't start with ..

"Once upon a time ..... "

guyb Posted on 2/11 21:07
re: The American election

Answer the questions and defend your Chimp, Robbie.

Juventus Posted on 2/11 21:11
re: The American election

On a side note, the last essay I done started with "The Conservative Party over time is much like making love to a beautiful woman."

guyb Posted on 2/11 21:12
re: The American election


"Crop Rotation in the fourteenth Century was considerably more widespread after..."

PhillyMac Posted on 2/11 21:15
re: The American election

Oh, and while I'm doing Iraqi casualties, how about:

1,100 dead US servicemen
8,000 injured US servicemen

When you add the other deaths from allies, civilian workers, etc, you're getting close to half another 9/11.

All to prevent another possible 9/11.

The cure is worse than the desease!

Gillandi Posted on 2/11 21:20
re: The American election

Robbie - The first "whatever" was because Ive read all your views on national pride etc and quite frankly havent got the foggiest idea what you are on about half the time and certainly don't want to get into it. The second "whatever" was because I'm not sure what "strong central government" means and again, didn't want to get into it. With so many bullet points for you to explain a couple had to go by the wayside. Perhaps you can explain at further length what it means and how it will be so much stronger and more central under Bush than Kerry.

I'm sorry you were so offended by my remarks re your dissappearance earlier. It was just a little tongue in cheek sarcasm, please don't be drawn from the real issues, you asked not to be insulted, ive answered your points and asked for further clarification on them.

Over to you.

boro74 Posted on 2/11 21:30
re: The American election

I donīt know how Bush can sleep at nights. Heīs got so much blood on his hands. And all for one thing - money. Who knows if Kerry is any better? But the least I hope, is that he (Kerry) has a conscience.

Colin_40 Posted on 2/11 21:54
re: The American election

Is that as much blood as that butcher Saddam has on his hands? Think of the millions he murdered during his reign of terror? Or don't you want the Iraqi people to have the same rights as the rest of us? You lot just don't get it do you?

BostonIdol Posted on 2/11 21:55
re: The American election

I really don't want to jump all over you like others might but Kerry has repeatedly said that the war has to be fought now that we're stuck in it and it has to be done right. He has repeatedly stated that he will hunt down terrorists and kill them. Just because the GOP pretend that he didn't say those things doesn't make it so. The reason why he wants to bring in allies is because there aren't enough American soldiers to fight an eternal war and when they run out then they have to bring back the draft which would cause anarchy if it happened.

You're completely misguided if you think this war will EVER end, it never will in our lifetime. A "War on Terror" lasts until there are no more terrorists which is never going to happen. Kerry's position that it shouldn't be the sole focus of all of our lives is one of my favourite things he's said. Yes, terrorists need to be dealt with but we are no more or less safe now than we were before 9/11. It's just scaremongering to suggest otherwise.

And I'm sorry but anybody who thinks the GOP's position on poisoning the Earth because God is going to end the world soon and we should just use up all the resources while we can (and I assure you, that IS their belief and it's well known in the media) is a GOOD thing must be retarded.

There are so many holes and flaws in your post that I could spend all day explaining them to you but I really can't be bothered. Believe it or not, a lot of Republicans don't like Bush because he doesn't act like a Republican. Spending money and creating a bigger, more powerful government are not traditional Republican ideals. In fact they are the very opposite. Bush is nothing more than a tool of industry, positioned to create maximum revenue for the biggest of business, running on the Republican ticket where he can gain the hardline conservative votes, the people who don't care about the environment or anybody but themselves and, of course, the religious right.

I actually know several Republican's, people who voted for Regan twice, Bush I and II (the first time), and even Bob Dole (!), and they are reluctantly voting for Kerry or the Libertarian's (despite most American's not actually understanding what being a Libertarian really means) because they just can't, in clear conscience, vote for this disgrace again. They're obviously in the minority, as it seems the majority of Republican's have been spoon fed so much garbage from evil, despicable c_unts like Sean Hannity and Ann Coulter that they actually think they're in Civil War but if lifelong Republican's can see the problem then I think that speaks volumes.

--- Post edited by BostonIdol on 2/11 21:59 ---

NorfolknGood Posted on 2/11 22:25
re: The American election

Robbie, George Bush has made America as isolated as you are on this thread.

'eeh look mother, everybody's out of step except our Martyn.'

Would you care to explain what it was that turned you in a matter of months from a staunch Kerry fan into a rabid Bush fan. 'Rabid' - what an apt word, though somehow I feel in your case Moxy there should be an 'e' in there somewhere.

Q: Why can't we ever just have a debate without all this crap alongside it?
A: Because you join in

gobshite............Daily Mail...toryboy
I've just put those in so you dont feel disappointed. Now you can think its just because you're stereotyped whereas really its just because "moxzin you are a complete c_unt"

Nisko Posted on 2/11 22:56
re: The American election

I think the perception that UK-US ties have strengthened over Bush's reign are an illusion, its more that Bush has driven other nations away, and we are the only ones still standing behind them.

EDIT: I meant to type beside them, but I think that 'behind' describes it far better, they don't care whether we're with them or not, were more following them that taking actions in joint with them.

Furthermore its arguable that the relationship has weakened as now the public support for it is more waering, as far as I can remember, under Clinton our relationship with the US was very well received, now with Bush and Blair its a bit of a farce.

Clinton also did some good work, with the middle East peace process and IIRC (memory is a little hazy) did he not get involved with the Northern Ireland process?

Not only that but (correct me if I'm wrong) America still had amicable ties with other European nations.

--- Post edited by Nisko on 2/11 23:00 ---

red_rebel Posted on 2/11 22:59
re: The American election


As usual you refuse to address any points and merely spit out half digested sound-bites for effect.

Please, expand on the 'Republican' values you share with Bush, coming as you do from the Nottingham Bible Belt.

I accept you generally support conservative attitudes. There is nothing wrong in that. I disagree with that perspective but have no problem with anyone articulating it.

The problem comes when you spin flimsy PR fluff into fundemental truths and denounce others as ignorant and naive, no matter how many hard facts they can marshall against you.

I know you enjoy the sport but well, it makes you look stupid.

The bottom line with Bush is that no matter how you judge it he has not been a good president. His only hope is to fool his people, as he has fooled you, that there is a war on and only traitors and quislings unseat the leader during a war.

The first of the two major policy initiatives of the White House is mired in a murderous military stalemate.

The second has ruined the US public finances.

The Republicans claimed that massive federal tax cuts would boost the economy and reduce unemployment.

Between 2001-04 the federal budget plunged from a surplus of $100bn to a deficit of $415bn (3.6% of GNP). This led Peter Peterson, ex Secretary for Commerce under President Nixon, to conclude: "This administration and the Republican Congress have presided over the biggest, most reckless deterioration of America's finances in history"

For the first time since Herbert Hoover (1929-33) an outgoing US president will leave behind him fewer jobs than existed at his inauguration. 9/11 cannot be blamed for everything.

If a leftwing government had handled the major macroeconomic indicators with such nonchalance then financiers, leader-writers and the markets would undoubtedly have ordered in a team of IMF doctors to prescribe a course of structural adjustments .

The Republicans' plan is crystal clear. They help the rich by lowering federal taxes. This creates deficits which force them not only to reduce public spending (apart from the army and "homeland security"), but also to make people pay for things that used to be free and pay more for everything else.

In the last decade California has spent more on prisons than on universities. Some 40 states plan to charge inmates for their time in jail.

That is how the Republican scheme works. First you cut taxes for the most wealthy on the pretext that deficits don't matter; then - when it turns out that they do matter somewhat - you increase taxes and "voluntary" contributions such as health insurance, higher education fees and childcare.

Since the Reagan presidency, Republicans have been prepared to acknowledge class struggle, but they view it one-sidedly.

According to a recent study by the Congressional Budget Office, Bush's tax policies mean that in 2004 the 1% of Americans who earn more than $1.2m a year will be, on average, $78,460 better off. The 20% of Americans earning a mere $16,620 a year will gain on average only $250 from tax cuts, which will surely be promptly be eaten up by increases in indirect taxation.

Even in percentage terms the rich have done better. As for the minimum wage, which, at $5.15 an hour, has not been increased since 1996, its real value has fallen to a 1955 low.

While millions of people were transfixed by the TV images of the attacks on the Twin Towers, Jo Moore told her bosses: "It is a good day to bury bad news.”

The same idea occurred to Bush. The New York Times has listed 28 examples over the last two years of alarmist official warnings, usually coinciding with bad economic or military news.

Now Bush is trying to do the same with the economy during the election. The timely Bin Laden tape pushes those buttons nicely. Don't vote for change. There's a war on.

Buggerlugs Posted on 2/11 23:04
re: The American election

Moxzin you are priceless. And before you ask, no I have nothing constructive to add to this thread although I would like to commend you on sucker punching Gillandi with the "crap will always follow" remark. A small victory in a debate in which you are being butchered.

--- Post edited by Buggerlugs on 2/11 23:21 ---

Gillandi Posted on 2/11 23:16
re: The American election

Hey Buggerlugs, I dont mind you enjoying Moxzin succer punching me but how about a word about my good grace in accepting it with a smiley and a kindly word to Mox that he would do well to show such humility when the bulletts are flying?

PS Tw at.

jax_1 Posted on 2/11 23:18
re: The American election

Just to expand on the debate a little.
I was wondering if any of you had any thoughts as to whether the result of the American election will have any bearing on our next general election. Would people be more tempted to give Tony the elbow if they saw that his best pal had gone and a more reasonable ( I hope) person was at the helm of the Whitehouse?

red_rebel Posted on 2/11 23:19
re: The American election

BL: How can you say he is being butchered? What till Chemical Moxy gets to work.... "there are no cliquist forces alive on the board, their throats have been slit, every one. Moxist armies are on the verge of a great victory for truth and for God."

NorfolknGood Posted on 2/11 23:22
re: The American election

I wouldnt have accepted it so easily Gill I thought it was 'Very, very insulting' and that he was a ptronising bar steward.

Just what you'd expect from a tory boy in fact

Gillandi Posted on 2/11 23:24
re: The American election


Buggerlugs Posted on 2/11 23:24
re: The American election

Only to be expected from a nice natured lug like yourself G. To be honest it was just a sap to Moxzin. As part of my quest to improve him as a person I have been encouraging him to develop a sense of humour. I thought that was a promising start from the boy.

albo87 Posted on 2/11 23:25
re: The American election

Good question Jax_1. I hoped that Asnar's defeat in Spain would be the first of a 'Yankee' bet on defeats for the main invaders of Iraq - Asnar, Bush, Blair and Howard.

Howard's win in Australia has scuppered it, but Bush and Blair's defeat would be nice compensatory treble. I wouldn't expect a big change in policy from Kerry if he wins - he's another establishment figure. But his victory would show how much US public opinion is shifting. That would inspire the anti-war people here, and possibly help to force Blair out of power even before the next general election.

Gillandi Posted on 2/11 23:27
re: The American election

Norfolk - I didn't have to, I could have continued with my assualt and got a million other contradictions of Mox's off my chest but you know how it is, you have to play the anglo-saxon-christian sometimes.

littlejimmy Posted on 2/11 23:27
re: The American election

Apologies for being unable to join in, but I've got severe RSI. This post has just taken me 10 minutes to type.

Even if only a 10th of Farenheit 9/11 is true, it doesn't change the fact that Bush is a grade one C_UNT!

jax_1 Posted on 2/11 23:33
re: The American election

Thanks Albo, I was hoping someone would be thinking along the same lines as myself. I would love to see Blair kicked out of office, not just because of the Iraq war but his stance on Europe too. As far as I am concerned the man is a traitor to this country. You would have thought by now someone would have pointed out to him that the French and Germans hate him. You can tell by the body language and the way they ignore him when they are all together.
It goes without saying though, that my main gripe is the way he has put the lives of our soldiers on the line for the sake of a pack of lies and of course at the same time increased the dangers for civilians in this country. There we were just getting used to the peace in Northern Ireland too. He should be hanged.

Scrote Posted on 2/11 23:58
re: The American election

the problem with getting rid of blair is exactly the same problem all the anti-smac brigade have always had

who can come in and do better?

certainly not the tories and i don't think the lib dems pack enough of a punch yet

the best that can be hoped for IMO is a tiny labour majority which will preempt an internal labour power struggle which will hopefully see off blair and maybe give brown a go in the hotseat - however would brown be any good?

and would it be in our interests to 'promote' one of the best chancellors we've had in ages??

jax_1 Posted on 3/11 0:45
re: The American election

You've raised some good points there Scrote.
As you say, we don't really have much of an alternative in opposition but even if an internal power struggle took place, there is no guarantee that Brown would win. I think a lot of the old guard have had a sickener and would try to get one of their own sort into power, not sure who they would push forward but I am sure that there would be more than one candidate, so it might be a bumpy ride for Brown. Would hate to see Cook get the job though.