permalink for this thread :
comfortable_shoes Posted on 28/12 0:14 can just fcuk off!!!

Ok i've been drinking, but he can fcuk off, go on someone tell me he exists?? GO ON???!!! those poor people,poor childrens bodies being carried by fathers.

yeah he's just so great isn't he?

holgate_rochey Posted on 28/12 0:21
re: can just fcuk off!!!

yeah i want to hear a "believers" view on it.....on christmas fcuking day aswell!

Goal_Scrounger Posted on 28/12 0:23
re: can just fcuk off!!!

Yeah...and why did my cat die when I was little?

Thought I'd better edit that....sounded too flippant in the light of recent events. However, that cat death was what set me on the road to atheism with a similar line of thought to the one you're currently on C_S.

--- Post edited by Goal_Scrounger on 28/12 0:25 ---

comfortable_shoes Posted on 28/12 0:25
re: can just fcuk off!!!

Thats because it knew you were going to be a maths teachers, probably commited suicide!!!...thats different.

already there mate, just a bit drunk and a few scenes on tv made me post this.

--- Post edited by comfortable_shoes on 28/12 0:26 ---

twoshots Posted on 28/12 0:26
re: can just fcuk off!!!

comfy -
bizarrly just sent you a response elswhere

but don't want to get into a God thing - awful - just found out my in laws and 3 kids are okay!

Goal_Scrounger Posted on 28/12 0:27
re: can just fcuk off!!!



bluetitch Posted on 28/12 0:29
re: can just fcuk off!!!

I'll ask my deeply religious friend when I speak to her on Wednesday.
I dread the answer being something trite like it's a test of faith.

comfortable_shoes Posted on 28/12 0:30
re: can just fcuk off!!!

my cat told your cat GS, but how did he know???

I know we have some Christians on here and no doubt they will kick off again after reading this, everyone to their own, but it just seems such a waste of effort when the real world takes a lot to get through without religion as well. But please, tell me what has come out of this in gods eyes???

comfortable_shoes Posted on 28/12 0:31
re: can just fcuk off!!!

bluetitch your right, that is all they ever say

janplanner Posted on 28/12 0:34
re: can just fcuk off!!!

it's not very convincing though, is it? my mam's very religious and i just don't understand her faith. particularly at times like this.

Goal_Scrounger Posted on 28/12 0:34
re: can just fcuk off!!!

Not wanting to appear cynical bluetitch, but that's the kind of answer you always get. It's usually that one or "It's His will", "It's not ours to wonder why" and so on.

On creation, I like the fact that the argument goes something like:

"There MUST be a God, otherwise, who elso would have created the universe?"

"Erm.....couldn't the universe just have ALWAYS existed? Maybe no-one created it?"

"Don't be silly, someone has to create EVERYTHING. Nothing can have ALWAYS existed"

"So...who created God then?"

"Oh, he's ALWAYS exis.........Oh.... Bugger.".

standards Posted on 28/12 0:35
re: can just fcuk off!!!

Im in total agreement Comfy, I think the world is in dire need of a new world order, lets just cut the shiiiite and work together, we dont need singers or politicians to let us lead the way.

shaun_84 Posted on 28/12 0:36
re: can just fcuk off!!!

The Christian argument is always that God has given people a choice, but it falls down flat at times like this

comfortable_shoes Posted on 28/12 0:36
re: can just fcuk off!!!

there seems to be more sensible people on this board than I thought...oh hang on, he come rich10

standards Posted on 28/12 0:38
re: can just fcuk off!!!

And as for religions, well your gravy boat has well and truly struck full


bluetitch Posted on 28/12 0:38
re: can just fcuk off!!!

And...if it IS his will, I want to know why!

comfortable_shoes Posted on 28/12 0:38
re: can just fcuk off!!!

No doubt the theology students amongst us will come up with some great dep and meaningful argument why it happened...FCUK OFF

The reality is nature is what runs this world, we just cling on when we can for as long as we can!

shaun_84 Posted on 28/12 0:39
re: can just fcuk off!!!

I feel guilty for crying at terrible disasters like this when I've had a few drinks. It's like a medium for releasing pent up emotions, and it seems selfish. Not having a go at comfy, it's just a personal feeling that I get.

jax_1 Posted on 28/12 0:40
re: can just fcuk off!!!

Religion is an emotional crutch used by those who have no strength of character.
We should make the 'churches' pay for the rebuilding of the towns and villages and putting people back on their feet again.

Piquet Posted on 28/12 0:41
re: can just fcuk off!!!

So who do you blame if you are a non believer like me?

Scrote Posted on 28/12 0:41
re: can just fcuk off!!!

"bluetitch your right, that is all they ever say"

i disagree - thats all you ever hear 'cos you never actually listen...

why not ask why people are building their homes in the vicinity of somewhere called "the ring of fire"??

i certainly wouldn't - and whilst that may sound a bit flippant and uncaring it is no less pointless than the intital question (beer or no beer)

link thing below to one viewpoint if you want to read it - i don't really feel like arguing the point though 'cos holgate_rochey sums up what makes it pointless in his post about christmas - if you are an athiest what the fook has christmas got to do with anything??

--- Post edited by Scrote on 28/12 0:42 ---

Link: link...

comfortable_shoes Posted on 28/12 0:42
re: can just fcuk off!!!

Don't feel guilty mate, I have shed many a tear over things like this with a little drink in me or not, I guess we all have.

The_GOAT Posted on 28/12 0:44
re: can just fcuk off!!!

I believe he exists. Mainly because I believe in souls/spirits/whathaveyou and certain other experiences.

Will Smith had some important words on the dealing with suffering. I'll find his CD and we can all be enlightened.

--- Post edited by The_GOAT on 28/12 0:46 ---

comfortable_shoes Posted on 28/12 0:45
re: can just fcuk off!!!

I don't think you can blame anyone PK, its nature, its what happens, luck maybe that you were not there???

holgate_rochey Posted on 28/12 0:47
re: can just fcuk off!!!

God does not exist, its just like believing in Santa.
What created god? what is he? how does he look over the whole world? is god a person? if he is, why hasnt he died of old age? God must be fcuking massive to be able to look over the whole world. How does he have time to listen and answer everyones prayers, poor bloke must never have time to himself.

comfortable_shoes Posted on 28/12 0:48
re: can just fcuk off!!!

Scrote, no offence mate, but no thanks, I can't even be bothered to click the link. I did the altar boy bit at St Pat's in Thornaby, thought about becoming a Priest like my Uncle (or should I say, my family did for me) but then thought hang on, hang on...WTF????

jiltedjiff Posted on 28/12 0:48
re: can just fcuk off!!!

Aberfan did it for me.

Why worship a child murderer?

Truth is Man invented God in his own image.

standards Posted on 28/12 0:51
re: can just fcuk off!!!

The sooner we concentrate on exploration the better, religion is like a big pool of muddy water, its like dead dirty and that

standards Posted on 28/12 0:52
re: can just fcuk off!!!

Hats on, its all kicked off, theres like replys everywhere, GET DOWN

bluetitch Posted on 28/12 0:54
re: can just fcuk off!!!

"Never actually listen"? Personally speaking, having been brought up as a Catholic, I do listen but don't understand. I like to think I'm open to other opinions but when I'm told I should go to confession and mass in order to be forgiven, then I tend to get somewhat irritated. And when my deeply religious friend gives up going 'round old people's homes and hospitals cheering people up because she can do more good going to church and praying more often then I give up!

Link: The book I'm reading at the moment!

Scrote Posted on 28/12 1:01
re: can just fcuk off!!!

sorry bluetitch - that was directed at comfy - we've been down this path a few times and the pope still gets the blame for AIDS in africa etc...

if people don't want to believe in God then fine but don't keep harping on about him when things go wrong - thats all i ask

bluetitch Posted on 28/12 1:04
re: can just fcuk off!!!

You shouldn't have mentioned the Pope and AIDS! And don't get me going on contraception, abortion and divorce!
Blimey - I was feeling quite relaxed half an hour ago!

The_GOAT Posted on 28/12 1:09
re: can just fcuk off!!!

My belief is that religion should be a persons own interpretation as opposed to closely following a book written over 2000 years ago (for example).

It doesn't say anywhere in the Bible that God controls everything (by that I mean things can occur naturally) and it doesn't say anywhere that we are his primary and favourite creations. Therefore I am thinking that acts like this cannot be considered evil by God, because he may not be 'doing it'.

I don't know if any of that makes sense.It isn't late enough and I haven't thought about it long enough for me to be concise.

standards Posted on 28/12 1:12
re: can just fcuk off!!!

Heres a theory, GOD CAN FK OFF



Grumpy_Paul Posted on 28/12 1:12
re: can just fcuk off!!!

Don't know if there is a God as such or if these things are purely a result of the nature of this planet but what I can say is that whether act of God or Nature the power of the planet's meteorology and geology is phenomenal. During my time in the Merchant Navy I endured three TRSs (Tropical Revolving Storms) ie Hurricanes / Typhoons etc to the layman, all you can do is slow down and head almost into it and then hope for the best. 200.000 tons of mans best just tossed about like a cork, a truly awesome and fearsome sight.
Tsunami is a different beast, not so spectacular visually but an unstoppable force.
Forces of nature, does god exists and is he the architect of this type of nature? I don't know, but yeah Comfy if he is he can

comfortable_shoes Posted on 28/12 1:15
re: can just fcuk off!!!

We have scote and I never mean to offend you and I know it gets mentioned when something happens, but I get so annoyed with people (not you) who glibbly say crap like 'it is the will of God' maybe as they are pulling the pin on the dynamite they have strapped to their chest, or as they say mass!!!

The_GOAT Posted on 28/12 1:15
re: can just fcuk off!!!

I just think you're all being silly.

If God is responsible for all the natural disasters that happen, then what about all the great things that happen such as babies escpaing unscathed from car wreckages or other miricles that are not aswell publisised?

Is that luck or is it God?

comfortable_shoes Posted on 28/12 1:21
re: can just fcuk off!!!

Luck mate, just luck....I spent four weeks at Lockerbie picking up bodies and wreckage, one of the aircraft engines embedded itself six feet into the ground about six feet from a house, I remember driving past it and seeing the old woman looking out of the kitchen window at me past it.....right time right place or wrong time wrong place...luck!!!

standards Posted on 28/12 1:21
re: can just fcuk off!!!

are you about Goat?

Scrote Posted on 28/12 1:23
re: can just fcuk off!!!

no probs comfy - best if i leave it for now though - not the time for a theological debate

may God have mercy on the souls of those killed over the last couple of days and give comfort to all those affected

The_GOAT Posted on 28/12 1:23
re: can just fcuk off!!!


shaun_84 Posted on 28/12 1:25
re: can just fcuk off!!!

God will comfort people, scrote, that's why we invented him

standards Posted on 28/12 1:29
re: can just fcuk off!!!

Scrote, this is the place

standards Posted on 28/12 1:34
re: can just fcuk off!!!

get on with it

--- Post edited by standards on 28/12 1:36 ---

Grumpy_Paul Posted on 28/12 1:35
re: can just fcuk off!!!

Why are we all silly?
Do we not have the right to question the actions of whoever is 'God' if indeed he / it / she exists.
I was brought up a catholic and did the 'alter boy' bit and more.
Two close friends and a cousin of mine went to school for priests training yet we all came to the same conclusion that it was a great brainwashing excercise. It's a bit like supporting Boro in a strange kind of way, an act of faith where occasionally that faith is rewarded, except football is only a game. God, however you may percieve god to be gives rewards, but by fcuk he / it / she extracts a price

comfortable_shoes Posted on 28/12 1:35
re: can just fcuk off!!!

At ease soldier......

shaun_84 Posted on 28/12 1:37
re: can just fcuk off!!!

"school for priests training"

standards Posted on 28/12 1:40
re: can just fcuk off!!!

Im sorry but Im really not with this, Im really not with the fking plot here, its like Im in some sort of theological arguement that I dont belong in

The_GOAT Posted on 28/12 1:43
re: can just fcuk off!!!

Being silly as in claiming he is evil and non existant just because things like this happen.

Is that really proof he doesn't exist just because he doesn't stop *natural* disasters?

I don't deny religion can be an attempt to brainwash. I've just said it should be a persons own interpretation. How do they know that they are right and everyone else is wrong? Do you really want to put the fate of your afterlife in the hands of someone who simply trained to become a priest? It's you who faces the consequences after you die, so the decision of how you act on earth should lie with you.

What happened was a natural disaster. If nobody had been there, would you all be condeming God?

Scrote Posted on 28/12 1:43
re: can just fcuk off!!!

sorry standards - i don't mean it like that - just that a thread about people dying hardly needs a load of pro/anti religious rhetoric that will never change anyones position anyway - especially after copious amounts of alcohol

the link above gives some insight into the christian way of reconciling God with natural disasters - take a look and i'll happily answer any points raised (probably tomorrow now) but i don't want to get drawn into a big debate about why God can't exist 'cos people suffer with people who won't accept that God exists regardless 'cos it is pointless

its the same as you trying to convince me that people only get christmas presents 'cos santa exists (in a reverse logic kind of way )

comfortable_shoes Posted on 28/12 1:44
re: can just fcuk off!!!

STAND EASY THAT MAN I SAY....big game tomorrow, you need to concentrate fella, forget this religous crap trap, laddy, this is reality!!!!

comfortable_shoes Posted on 28/12 1:46
re: can just fcuk off!!!

Santa real....haha...oh, hang on though

shaun_84 Posted on 28/12 1:47
re: can just fcuk off!!!

scrote, chat to me about religion one night, we'll last a few hours

The_GOAT Posted on 28/12 1:49
re: can just fcuk off!!!

If only his 'other activities' last a tenth as long...

Scrote Posted on 28/12 1:49
re: can just fcuk off!!!

i'd love to shaun but i can't help but think we'd only get as far as loincloth before it turned into a smutfest

seriously though i'm happy to chat anytime - just need to get some sleep now to be up for the game tomorrow...

shaun_84 Posted on 28/12 1:50
re: can just fcuk off!!!

ok dokes, I'm sure we can spare a few mins sometime

standards Posted on 28/12 1:52
re: can just fcuk off!!!

Scrote, yes Ive had copius amounts of alcohol, yes you bringing it up has highlighted it, yes you havent a fkin clue why I drink copius amounts of alchol

Get this mate

Burn your churches very very very very slowly

Ive found CS gas in them, burn your churches very very very very slowly

but I still love and trust Jesus

work that one out

Grumpy_Paul Posted on 28/12 1:52
re: can just fcuk off!!!

I kid you not

There are quite a few schools in this country which train kids in preparation for the priesthood

comfortable_shoes Posted on 28/12 1:53
re: can just fcuk off!!!

I’m off to bed too, us atheists get to sleep prayers to say!!!

The_GOAT Posted on 28/12 1:56
re: can just fcuk off!!!

I had an argument about Christmas with a Muslim on the rapboard I use.

I responded generally but did not really have enough interest or information to blow him off (not literally). Scrote is a man of the loincloth so it will beinteresting to see what he (and other religios people) make of it.

A fool and his money; not together long!
By Abdul Allah Muhammad

Of course, we all are aware that we are approaching that time that occurs every year called “Christmas.” And, most of us assume that the holiday, or “Holy Day,” began with the Birth of Jesus, since this is what we are generally taught.

But look into THE CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA, and you will find the statement, “Christmas was not among the earliest festivals of the church.” And if you study the religion known as “Mithraism,” you will find that the Romans and Greeks, way back when, celebrated December 25 as “The Nativity of the Unconquered Sun” long before the Birth of Jesus.

If, indeed, we are celebrating the birthday of Jesus, why do all these other people—including ourselves—get presents also? How many other people get gifts on your birthday, because it is your birthday? You spend all the money, and an unknown called “Santa Claus” gets the appreciation (not the “credit”—you have to pay for that).

Everybody was not in accord with this hand-made holiday. In 1659, the Puritan Colony of Massachusetts passed a law against celebrating Christmas. Boston rebelled against the move until finally, in 1856, the legislature made it a legal holiday.

To those Biblical scholars among you, if you celebrate the day we have come to know as “Christmas,” does it ever bother you when you read the 10th Chapter of Jeremiah, which begins with a warning from God not to follow the ways of the heathen nations—such as cutting down a tree, fastening it in place, then decorating it “with silver and gold”? There are no instructions in the Bible for the exchange of gifts, but the practice is found in all of the pagan mid-winter “festivals.” I was quite amused by a statement in one writer’s column that, “If we believed in Jesus, we would respect Him too much to get drunk and act a fool on His Birthday!”

This raised another question: “Where in the Bible do we find “Santa Claus” and “Easter Bunny” as we see them portrayed around the churches? One writer suggested that children learn an old song and sing it to their elders, to wit: “How can I believe you when you tell me that you love me, when I know you’ve been a liar all your life?”

One writer suggests that we “Reflect on how Xmas is celebrated—including the predominance of liquor and illicit sex—and ask yourself if such behavior is fitting to honor a Righteous Man!”

The question of “equal rights” arouses, to wit: “On what grounds can a parent punish children for lying, then tell them lies like virgins giving birth and rabbits laying eggs?” (Christmas and Easter!).

A headline on the December 18, 1968 Phoenix Gazette stated that the “BIRTH OF CHRIST NOT CELEBRATED UNTIL 5th CENTURY.” Obviously, there were no witnesses present at the celebration.

Ever wonder what the “Christmas tree” represented? I have, and finally got the answer. Sun-worshipers believe that the mother of Adonis, the “Sun God,” was mystically said to have been changed into a tree and, when in that state, to have brought forth her divine son—hence, the “Christmas Tree”!

© Copyright 2004 FCN Publishing,

standards Posted on 28/12 2:00
re: can just fcuk off!!!

God can fk off

standards Posted on 28/12 2:01
re: can just fcuk off!!!

And so can the Church and all that, let them all come

shaun_84 Posted on 28/12 2:02
re: can just fcuk off!!!

the church can

Grumpy_Paul Posted on 28/12 2:03
re: can just fcuk off!!!

Respect your views, just don't know if I agree.
Emphasise 'Don't Know'
Brainwashing is our perception of the way the God thing has been presented to us since childhood
The consequences of the Tsunami and other events just make you question our whole perception of life and the meaning of 'God', whatever / whoever God is, if indeed God exists

standards Posted on 28/12 2:03
re: can just fcuk off!!!

And hopefully why we all all hit them hard enough we will give creation chance enoughj to come up with something new and less shiiite.

The_GOAT Posted on 28/12 2:07
re: can just fcuk off!!!

I don't know the passage, I just remember it from an RE course work piece.

It said that there is no meaning of life and that humans and animals both had no meaning of existence.

But then, that is just the Christian belief. They also don't believe in reincarnation whereas I do.

bluetitch Posted on 28/12 2:09
re: can just fcuk off!!!

Talking of priests - the only priest I would ever respect is the father of six who decided to become one after his wife died. How can someone "give advice" about marriage and children when they have foresaken them?

standards Posted on 28/12 2:13
re: can just fcuk off!!!

Sorry but Id just like to run about on the highground with my pink bits out, these cnuts couldnt shoot shjit for shat

boro_fan_in_China Posted on 28/12 5:15
re: can just fcuk off!!!

I notice nobody mentioned that old chestnut,
"god works in mysterious ways"......

standards Posted on 28/12 7:42
re: can just fcuk off!!!

Obviously now Scrote I wake up and regret posting the above, Im just a bit down regarding cancer in the belly of my mother and worried about recent stories of a bloke who watched his wife in so much pain through the same he ended up playing God, Im just not good at imagining my Mother in pain, I hope you dont take too much offence about the above ranting, I read the papers and all the stories of this wave disaster got to me and its just all a bit wrong, Im just sort of saying that Id prefer a lot more of world money spent on medicinal science and stuff, stuff I dont really know about, hope you are cool, all the best.

comfortable_shoes Posted on 28/12 7:57
re: can just fcuk off!!!

I'm up now too and for me he can still fcuk off and when he gets back, he can fcuk off gain!!!!!!!

What ever happens to your mam standards it will have nothing to do with 'a God' it will be because that is the way it is. Going through similar crap (but not cancer) with mine at present, can't go to game today as I have to go to the hospital. All the best mate.

Buddy Posted on 28/12 8:27
re: can just fcuk off!!!

Scrote you picked a very bad example there old chap. Blaming a god for earthquakes is just as daft as thanking him for daffodils and lambs. Blaming the Pope, or at least the church he is nominally in charge of, for at least a significant proportion of the spread of AIDS seems to me to be entirely justifiable.

Scrote Posted on 29/12 1:20
re: can just fcuk off!!!

standards - no probs

missed you today mate - hope your mam comes through it ok

buddy - explain???

--- Post edited by Scrote on 29/12 3:57 ---

Buddy Posted on 29/12 11:42
re: can just fcuk off!!!

Teaching "don't use contraception, abstain" is like shouting at the sky to stop raining. I believe it is still official Vatican policy though.

sasboro Posted on 29/12 11:43
re: can just fcuk off!!!

Why didnt god give a sign of the tidal wave?

why would he want to punish those people?
why not punish people who commit serious crimes of humanity?

--- Post edited by sasboro on 29/12 11:44 ---

Sundance_Kid Posted on 29/12 11:55
re: can just fcuk off!!!

Im hardly Mr Religious but I think blaming God for this is a bit like passing the buck.

Us, humans, have had the technology to warn us about Tsunami's for about forty years so its a bit of an own goal by us really.

God gave us the ability to protect us from such things and humans turned this precious system down all because of cost.

littlejimmy Posted on 29/12 11:58
re: can just fcuk off!!!

I don't think people are blaming God, SK. I think they're trying to say that if he existed, he wouldn't let these things happen. How can you blame someone you don't believe in?

boro_bliss Posted on 29/12 12:05
re: can just fcuk off!!!

God has never existed.

Buddy Posted on 29/12 12:06
re: can just fcuk off!!!

Ah, the voice of experience....

Sundance_Kid Posted on 29/12 12:08
re: can just fcuk off!!!

Well now we are getting into the big debate.

Apparently one of gods great ideas was to give us all free will so we can choose what we want, how we want to live out our lives etc as a test to see whether we are worthy enough.

I think the argument is more or less that god gave the people of South East Asia their free will so to choose whether they wanted to install an early warning system or not and they turned it down.

Personally I think it's a load of boll*x but that's the story you will get from devout religious Christians anyway.

--- Post edited by Sundance_Kid on 29/12 12:09 ---

red_rebel Posted on 29/12 12:14
re: can just fcuk off!!!

Sundance raises a good point (although I disagree with his conclusion).

Any anger should not be addressed at some supernatural force, although it is natural at a time of great distress that upset people shoudl want some outlet to express anger and sorrow.

But that anger should be aimed at corrupt oppressive regimes who have chosen to funnel money into the pockets of their leadesr rather than implement relatively cheap and technically simple defences against what is quite a common problenm in the region.

It is not expensive high-tech sensors we are talking about but simple sea walls to protect exposed communities prone to routine flooding and solid infra-structure built to withstand regular earth quakes that disrupt water and power supplies or major public built with solid foundations.

Instead the things that would benefit ordinary people are done on teh cheap - if at all - while nations whose population are in poverty spend untold billions on military aircraft and bombs.

Even as we speak those corrupt politicians are seeking advantage. In Sri Lanka the Sinhalese government is trying to prevent aid getting to dissident Tamil regions and Indonsesian troops are heading to areas under rebel Moslem control to 'help restore order'. They do not care about the plight of the people only about their own privileged position.

Direct your anger at the politicians not God.

sasboro Posted on 29/12 12:17
re: can just fcuk off!!!

Isnt god just made up anyway?

1000's of years ago someone would have written in a diary that the tidal wave was not a natural force but an angry god. god was used as a way of explaining things that were unexplainable in those days. With scientific evidence less people beleive go these days

red_rebel Posted on 29/12 12:21
re: can just fcuk off!!!

Yes Sas, God is just made up. But as we can see, to assert that right now is just a diversion from the real issue.

zaphod Posted on 29/12 12:29
re: can just fcuk off!!!

I think all you atheists and agnostics are incensed because of your own world view, which is that death is the end. You think as a result that it is therefore unfair of God to allow people to die in this way. The fact is that everyone has to die at some point and whether it's in large numbers in a natural disaster like this or in more "normal" ways is absolutely irrelevant. All us have to come to terms with the reality of our own future death and the deaths of those we care about. We have to make sense of our own lives and those of others in the light of the certainty of death.

Christians have a completely different world view: death is not the end; it is just a transition. It is what happens after that which really determines the validity of our lives and of other people's. These people killed in the disaster have now been through that transition.

Edited to clear up an apparent lack of clarity

--- Post edited by zaphod on 29/12 12:38 ---

Buddy Posted on 29/12 12:34
re: can just fcuk off!!!


"atheists and agnostics are incensed because .... it is therefore unfair of God to allow people to die in this way."

Buddy Posted on 29/12 12:52
re: can just fcuk off!!!

Edit doesn't help. Atheists and agnostics have no place thinking anything about the fairness or otherwise of any action of a God they don't believe in or aren't sure about.

Furthermore, am I right in thinking that your argument boils down to "everyone should want to die as quickly as possible"?

red_rebel Posted on 29/12 13:04
re: can just fcuk off!!!

Also while that may be the Christian world view that will be little consolation for the Moslem, Buddhist or Hindu victims.

It seems strange that if this is a 'test of faith' (Which I don' t think for a second but it has been raised elsewhere) that such a test should be applied to non-Christians.

Buddy Posted on 29/12 13:06
re: can just fcuk off!!!

Well certainly the Muslim ones believe in the same God and have a similar view on the afterlife. Hindus are all right, they'll be reincarnated.

Ludicrous, the whole thing.

zaphod Posted on 29/12 13:22
re: can just fcuk off!!!

red_rebel: many things that happen can be a test of faith for the individuals involved (in this case survivors and/or relatives), but that is not usually the reason for them to happen. You presumably come from a Roman Catholic background: the Catholic Church always feels it has to have an authoritative answer to everything, which sometimes leads to rather bland and unhelpful statements.

Buddy: I don't understand your logic. Why should believers want to die as soon as possible, if our current lives are part of a continuum?

Buddy Posted on 29/12 13:27
re: can just fcuk off!!!

I was asking if that was your argument. So in fact it is: "it doesn't matter if we die or not because what happens after is the same but somewhere else"?

sasboro Posted on 29/12 13:27
re: can just fcuk off!!!

what happens if you change faith halfway through your life?

GtownBeerBelly Posted on 29/12 13:32
re: can just fcuk off!!!

To blame God for calamatious events such as the recent earthquake is to fall into the old trap of assuming that WE are the centre of His universe. We ain't.

zaphod Posted on 29/12 13:32
re: can just fcuk off!!!

No, Buddy. The idea is to make the best of this life before moving on at the appropriate time, whenever that may be.

sasboro: what your faith is will determine what happens after you die. God will decide on that, not me.

red_rebel Posted on 29/12 13:34
re: can just fcuk off!!!

Zaphod: As I said, I don't believe it was a test of faith. I was just being facicious with those that had raised it earlier.

Philosophically I am a materialist and see this as a scientific/geographical phenomonon not a spiritual one.

While I understand why it would provoke a spiritual response in those that way inclined I think prayer will do little to rebuild the sewage system and power lines.

sasboro Posted on 29/12 13:35
re: can just fcuk off!!!

has there ever been any disaster started or prevented with gods powers?

Buddy Posted on 29/12 13:38
re: can just fcuk off!!!

"what your faith is will determine what happens after you die."

Does that mean that whatever your faith says will happen, will happen? Or that your (zaphod's) God will decide based on the faith of the individual concerned?

Sorry to keep asking these questions of you zaph but you're the only one here putting the pro-God view at present and I'm really struggling to understand some of the concepts.

Can you see that there could be some validity in red_rebel's point that some rocks moved and some water moved with them, and in my view that all the animals (including humans) and plants that died will disperse back into the global system in some molecular way?

Scrote Posted on 29/12 13:40
re: can just fcuk off!!!

buddy - if people don't listen to the pope and just do what they want how can he be to blame for their plight?? - makes no sense whatsoever...

sas - if you die without accepting Jesus as your saviour then God will judge you as you have judged others BUT he will judge from His terms of reference not yours - much like you judge chavs from your terms of reference not theirs

if you read the link i put up towards the start of this thread it goes a little way towards explaining that nature is no longer in harmony with humanity since the fall of man - whether you believe this or not depends on whether you believe in God or not but either way there is nothing to blame God for

if you don't believe why bring it up and if you do then you should be happy with your faith - it is that simple

Buddy Posted on 29/12 13:44
re: can just fcuk off!!!

Telling people to abstain from sex is just daft. It ain't gonna happen. Is it not likely to be the case that a lot of people will simply lift the other bit - don't use contraception - as a part of the teaching they CAN comply with?

sasboro Posted on 29/12 13:45
re: can just fcuk off!!!

I dont believe in god but i have always been a good person and treat people as i would like to be treated. should i die tomorrow where would i stand in gods pecking order if someone else is religious but commits crime and misery on people will they still go to a better place than me. Will i get forgivness for being a non believer above a believer who is a bad person?

Piquet Posted on 29/12 13:46
re: can just fcuk off!!!

Do we have any followers of Buddism on here?

GtownBeerBelly Posted on 29/12 13:48
re: can just fcuk off!!!

We were told to abstain from sex in the eighties when the AIDs thing happened and quite a few people did. It's not that hard

zaphod Posted on 29/12 13:58
re: can just fcuk off!!!

I'd be happier if we kept the Pope out of this and concentrated on God.

The Christian faith is based on the proposition that what happens in this life determines what happens in the next. The only certain way of determining a good outcome (i.e. heaven, being with God or whatever) is a genuine faith in Christ. Not going to church regularly, or taking the sacraments, or giving money to charity - but instead a faith which changes the sort of person that you are (which is the meaning of being born again). If your character is not radically improved by your faith, then your faith is not genuine (see the Epistle of James about that). Jesus also says, however, that people will be judged "according to their lights", normally taken to mean that people with no realistic opportunity to come to faith will be judged by more generous criteria. It is unlikely that this applies to many adults in the UK, but it would apply to children, as well as adults in areas with no access to Christian teaching.

Buddy Posted on 29/12 14:06
re: can just fcuk off!!!

God: "I call to order this meeting of the Designation Committee. Only one item on the agenda today: the recognition of East Timor as an Approved Area With Access To Christian Teaching. St Peter has a report on this one."

Peter: "Yes, well since the introduction of democracy to the region there has been an influx of preachers from Brisbane. We reckon that this has now reached a level where the locals can't really claim not to have heard of Jesus. This is hopefully our first foothold in the Indonesian archipelago, because to be quite frank there are an awful lot of Muslims there who at the moment we have to judge on the lower threshold of culpability and it's getting a bit expensive on the infrastructure front"

(cont p94)

red_rebel Posted on 29/12 14:17
re: can just fcuk off!!!


God: "Right, any other business?"

Paul: "Maybe the time is right for a radical rebranding to firm up our market position. I mean, I like the old cross, but in new areas dominated by our traditional rivals it is getting some negative feedback in the focus groups and there's still an image problem after that Ratneresque episode with the Crusades.

"Our creatives have been working on the old fish symbol. You get fish everywhere. Everyone can relate to fish, even the Shintoists and we've long had big plans to open a Tokyo office."

Buddy Posted on 29/12 14:23
re: can just fcuk off!!!

God: "OK Paul, good thinking but I can see two downsides. One, without the cross we kind of lose some of the raison d'etre. Although I suppose we could rewrite the resurrection as having occurred after choking on a fish bone. Two, you'll have trouble with our core European constituency, the fish quotas round there are unbelievbale. Do a report for the next meeting and we'll suck it and see."

moxzin Posted on 29/12 18:59
re: can just fcuk off!!!

Thank God for Zaphod. Legend. There have been some disgusting things said on this thread, moronic, and from the very people who would claim in other instances to be tolerant and liberal. Hypocritical, contradictory drivel designed to insult and provoke those with faith.

I'm just glad we have people like Zaphod who can articulate a decent counter-argument without resorting to their level.

The truth will out....

wogga Posted on 29/12 20:14
re: can just fcuk off!!!

Meanwhile back in the boardroom:-

Red phone rings:

GOD answers: “Matthew my son hows it going?", “Yes go on", "Holy s_hit", "They're actually saying I can fcuk off", "Can't we put it down to that Mohammed geezer", "No. This is serious yeah", "We need to act fast. OK thanks"

Puts down phone.

John: “Its not good news is it?”

GOD: “Scrap the East Timor thing and put the fish idea on hold.”, “People are blaming me for events in SE Asia”

John: "Jesus Christ the Atheists could have a field day",“We could be in trouble here!”

GOD: "Too right brother", “We need a miracle and we need it fast”, “Get your thinking caps on!”

Buddy Posted on 29/12 20:15
re: can just fcuk off!!!

Go on then moxy, I'll bite.

What and where are you objecting to? Or are you just going by usernames?

littlejimmy Posted on 29/12 20:24
re: can just fcuk off!!!

This should be good...

moxzin Posted on 29/12 20:27
re: can just fcuk off!!!

Nothing to do with "biting" or "fishing". Just putting my opinion down. Just basically annoyed at some of the comments, I could name and shame, but you know what I'm talking about. The kind of comments insulting religion and demeaning those who are religious.

Its all intentionally provacative, of course, we know that, but I'm comfortable enough in my faith not to have to rise to it.

I just find it hypocritical to say the least that some people, who think of themselves as intellectual, moderate, inclusive, tolerant, multi-cultural, liberal, use any words you want, can rule something out so definetly and so thoughtlessly.

I don't have a problem with people who have gone through life, made their own choice, chosen their own path, rejected religion for whatever reason, thats fine, no-one should be forced. Its all this "fcuk God" stuff that annoys me.

The fact that atheism is forced down our throats at every opportunity from all directions. As I've said before, ATHEISTS ARE THE BIGGEST PREACHERS.

60,000 people lie dead, and all people can say is "aha yet another stick to beat religion with..."

To answer your question I object to it all. I object to Christians being mocked, marginalised, forced to prove themselves, explain themselves and have their believes and dreams disrespected in a bandwagon of hate.

So there we go. I don't mind atheism, I can't understand it, but I don't mind it, its just the constant feeling that atheists and can't-be-bothereds are constantly sniping and insulting the religious, and this is somehow acceptable.

Rant over.

bluetitch Posted on 29/12 20:27
re: can just fcuk off!!!

So I could be the bestest person in Birmingham - give to charity, help those less fortunate than myself,be all things to all people and be classed as a sinner if I don't believe in God? And I still don't get the anti contraception ruling - nor the "you're still married" stuff if you get divorced - regardless of the reason. And....why is it if you live with someone, you're "living in sin"?
After being brought up in the Catholic faith, fasting before Mass, fish on Fridays then going to church and seeing catholic men with their second wife - usually the secretary, the hypocrisy of it all got to me - and I was 14 at the time!

Buddy Posted on 29/12 20:38
re: can just fcuk off!!!

"I object to Christians being mocked, marginalised, forced to prove themselves..."

These are the people with beliefs beyond the visible though. I think it's fair enough to ask "what makes you so certain" of people who believe in something they cannot (a) see; (b) feel any effect of; (c) have independently confirmed to them.

If someone said to me "I am utterly and totally convinced there is a fire engine the other side of this building" I would walk round and have a look.

If someone says to me "I am utterly and totally convinced that there is a divine entity who has a direct effect on this planet, that it sent someone who may have either been a relative or its own human incarnation at one particular given moment in human history, and that it'll look after me after I reach the end of my biological life" then I can't walk round the building and check it out, so I feel the need to enquire closely as to exactly where they derive this belief from.

bluetitch Posted on 29/12 20:39
re: can just fcuk off!!!

moxzin - I understand what you're saying - hopefully you'll have read my posts and got to know my background can you say athiests do more preaching? One of my best friends - who I've known since I was 11, and who I mentioned earlier - is desperate to get me and my children back into going to church. She sends prayer cards and books, I had a rosary last Christmas - I've still got the one from my Holy Communion but it's not something you drop into conversation, she sprinkles "holy water" and prays for her husband when he's asleep.My best friend - who I've known since I was 5 was mortified to find out she was handing out prayer cards to people at her wedding reception in the hotel foyer - it was in a posh hotel and there were other guests/visitors there.

bluetitch Posted on 29/12 20:41
re: can just fcuk off!!!

Oh and zaphod - why should we leave the Pope out of it? Isn't he meant to be "God's spokesman"?

leap_day_2004 Posted on 29/12 20:41
re: can just fcuk off!!!

Why is it that when people question someones faith/religion with normal sensible questions then the reply they get is a hail of abuse on how dare you question my faith?

moxzin Posted on 29/12 20:54
re: can just fcuk off!!!

Before I handle Buddy and bluetitch's posts, its worth pointing out to leap_day_2004 that the "hail of abuse" started with the title of this thread and carried on from there for the next 50 odd posts.

Buddy, I respect what you're saying, and I don't think anyone disagrees that questioning of Christians, of why they believe and what, isn't inherently bad and thats not what I'm objecting to. Its this "AHA 60,000 DEAD, WHERES YOUR GOD NOW, EH?" sort of crops up every time...why? And why does it have to be done in such a crass, insulting manner? Why should we, collectively, have to constantly justify ourselves to people who aren't prepared to listen?

I personally am a Christian, yet I've never tried to convert a single person. Thats not my style, I prefer to let people make their own choices. But it just seems as soon as someone finds out you're a Christian, the interrogation is on....

"Why do you believe in God?"
"Who created God?"
"Why does God let bad things happen?"
"The Bible was written by priests to keep people in control etc etc"

What I'm trying to say is that questioning out of curiosity quickly becomes vitriolic attack in many cases. And if people were genuinely interested as to what the Christian viewpoint on this tragedy is, it would be different altogether, instead of just snidey point-scoring. Thats what it seems.

Bluetitch, thats my point, finally, that atheists, in my personal viewpoint, are always trying to pull apart and convince Christians otherwise. Add to this, the fact that atheism is the national curriculum, most children now don't have a choice (evolution and the big bang are taught as indisputable), from all sides, TV, Media, Radio, Newspapers, Winterval, Christmas being all leads me to believe that atheism is forcing itself on everyone..

Nedkat Posted on 29/12 20:54
re: can just fcuk off!!!

I didn't for one minute think about blaming anybody, it's a tragedy of a huge scale, but it's the way of the world. The Earthquakes, the hurricanes, the floods, the epidemics, the fires, the starvation, the droughts, it's all part of living on the planet Earth. Teutonic plates move, it's a well known and accepted fact. When they move, the live and wriggling things had better beware, cos they tend to bypass taking many prisoners. After that, we pick ourselves up, help if we can, and get on with it.

Buddy Posted on 29/12 20:58
re: can just fcuk off!!!

I would have agreed with you and let it lie if you hadn't put the bit about evolution and the Big Bang.

Do you believe that neither theory is correct? If so, how do you explain (for a kick-off) the lack of human remains in the fossil record at the same time as what I will theoretically call "earlier" creatures? Or the existence of the Cosmic Microwave Background, which was originally proposed as simply a necessary by-product of the Big Bang, then discovered by accident by some people looking for pulsars?

(I like Teutonic plates by the way Ned. Enormous Germanic dinner plates coursing through the mantle, decorated with stern-looking eagles. Tectonic.... )

--- Post edited by Buddy on 29/12 20:59 ---

bluetitch Posted on 29/12 21:05
re: can just fcuk off!!!

moxzin - so why can't someone be Christian like without a label? Personally I have NO problem with people's faith, as I said, it's when they try to preach/convert. Live and let live as far as I'm concerned.
You must remember though it's a message board so you take posts personally that you might not if they said the same thing to your face.

Nedkat Posted on 29/12 21:08
re: can just fcuk off!!!

Whoops. See what a clever little language we use .. One letter out and instead of giant plates of the Earth sliding around, theres sausages and schnitzels all over the shop !!

littlejimmy Posted on 29/12 21:09
re: can just fcuk off!!!

I could never understand how the big bang was discovered by people looking for cheap watches.

bluetitch Posted on 29/12 21:13
re: can just fcuk off!!!

Just wait..........I've been asked to remove my Christmas cards'cos they might "offend someone"...if you see a mention OXC"..Feel free..............

Keith_Myath Posted on 29/12 21:20
re: can just fcuk off!!!

You'll all get over it unless tragically someone dear to you has been affected in some way.

After all, none but those closely involved seem to care much about the massacre at Babi Yar when elements of the SS executed 33,771 Jews in Kiev on September 29 and 30, 1941 or in Rwanda in 1994, when an estimated million people were murdered as the extremist Hutu government tried to wipe out the rival Tutsi tribe as well as moderate Hutus during a 100-day massacre or when 7,000 Muslim men and boys were slaughtered by Bosnian Serb forces when they over-ran the UN "safe area" of Srebrenica in July 1995 or in Democratic Republic of Congo, six national armies, two rebel groups and numerous militias have been involved in a war that has resulted in the deaths of an estimated 2.5 million people, including many civilians, over six years.

Ah, but those were wars! and not many tourists were involved...........

It's a shltty world and shltty things go on. If it salves your conscience to feel empathy and give money to this particular cause then on you go. As a human being I feel for those involved but I do wonder at the hypocrisy and shallowness of people who are easily led by the nose pulled by the media. I mean, after all the pre Iraq war "anti war" movement (millions descending upon the worlds capital cities to protest) I don't see many of those millions doing much to support the process of rebuilding Iraq now. At least they got on the moral highground.

dunf0rt Posted on 29/12 21:40
re: can just fcuk off!!!

To paraphrase Scrote's link:

"Hurricanes counterbalance the ocean's tendency to leach carbon dioxide from the atmosphere."

"Likewise earthquakes play a vital role in providing for mankind's survival. Without them, "nutrients essential for land life would erode off the continents and accumulate in the oceans"

Now if God was so perfect he could have surely sorted out this carbon dioxide and nutrient problem by now. He's had ages.

But in fact the excuse is that it's Adam's fault :

"From a biblical standpoint, God included nature in Adam's consequences for misuse of freedom. Adam and Eve brought trouble not only upon themselves and their descendents, but also upon the planet. As a result of their actions, God pronounced an inhospitable relationship between nature and humankind Gen. 3:17-19. The farmer must till the ground by the sweat of his brow. No longer do its fruits come forth easily."

Now I'm thinking, OK that was a long time ago now. What has that got to do with me? Why should I suffer because of that apple nonsense? Surely it's just spiteful to pretend that he's still in a mood over a bit of fruit. And as for it being sorted out on the "last day" - thats the sort of thing I say at work when I haven't started something or don't know how to fix it - "I'll do it next week".

If God does exist he's at best petty and at worst useless. He's no more in control than anyone else.

red_rebel Posted on 29/12 23:06
re: can just fcuk off!!!

Mox: nice to have you back.

I think your ire is misplaced. You have taken the title of the thread and the emotions expressed in the opening post as some savage unprovoked attack on religion and God.

I don't see that. I see someone genuinely upset about these tragic events lashing out after a few pint. That Comfy directs that at God suggest not that he is some militant atheist out to undermine your faith but that he implicitely accepts the notion of divine power and feels confused, angry and powerless about its use.

For my part I see no role for God or superstition in what ultimately is a human tragedy at the hands of th eimmesnsely powerful forces of nature.

I can understand that such cataclysmic events will prompt the religious to prayer. That act will naturally prompt the irreligious to question the logic of that action.

There are some fundemental age old theological questions raised on this thread and I respect Scrote and Zaphod for having a go at what is atough task in answering them.

But I really can't see how you help your cause by denouncing those who raise them.

comfortable_shoes Posted on 29/12 23:37
re: can just fcuk off!!!

Bloody hell, this kicked of didn’t it?

Yes, I was a bit pissed and was genuinely upset at the images I saw the other night on telly, being a Father myself I felt so sorry for that man carrying his dead child.

However, in no way am I confused or accept the notion of divine power, in fact quite the opposite, I don’t believe in God or Devil, Heaven or Hell, I am an atheist and am quite happy with that. Nature is a powerful force, it is what created our solar system, our planet and us. I think I just pre-empted the hand ringing and pious deliberations of the religious high priests with the ‘it is the will of God’ stuff and my wife’s Gran too who blames all the good things in life on God and all the bad things (this included) on the Devil....I bite my lip to keep the peace at home, but not on here.

zaphod Posted on 29/12 23:37
re: can just fcuk off!!!

Sorry for the delay in coming back on this thread. I hoped it would die a death while I was having a farewell dinner with my family before we all dispersed to various points of the globe, but unfortunately not.

I personally (unlike Moxzin) don't object to being abused as a Christian over issues like this. And I don't think God gets upset either, if people are honestly distressed. These are difficult problems which are a trial to all of us and I wouldn't be so foolish as to claim that Christians know all the answers. God may have perfect responses, but God doesn't post on here. Please, Moxzin, don't try to "defend" God; he can look after himself.

Bluetitch, I want to leave the Pope out of it because I am (to be precise) an evangelical protestant and the Pope is a serious problem to me (and most other non-Catholic Christians). As far as I am concerned, the Pope is at best an irrelevance and at worst a serious drawback to the spread of the Christian faith.

As for being the best person in Birmingham, the whole point of Christ's sacrificial death is that such perfect people don't exist and therefore all us imperfect people need someone else to take the punishment we deserve. If you think you're good enough not to need forgiveness and help to improve, please feel free to present your case to God. But I don't fancy your chances.

red_rebel Posted on 29/12 23:43
re: can just fcuk off!!!


My apologies for wrongly interpreting your drunken weak bladdered rantings as somehow being an acknowlegment of God's existance rather than a clear and unequivocal statement of atheism. Although to be fair, you were slurring your words a bit.

comfortable_shoes Posted on 29/12 23:45
re: can just fcuk off!!!

No problem mate, in truth If there had been a St Jack Daniels, I may well have been a believer...however...

zzzzz Posted on 29/12 23:56
re: can just fcuk off!!!

Is there any of you that can honestly say that you wont suddenly become a believer (just in case) on your deathbed?

red_rebel Posted on 29/12 23:57
re: can just fcuk off!!!


Cobain_94 Posted on 30/12 0:00
re: can just fcuk off!!!

The question still hasn't been answered? I consider myself a decent person, I let myself down sometimes but on the whole my life's a good one. I don't believe in god though, so according to the bible I'm going to hell. That's not very all loving all forgiving is it?

comfortable_shoes Posted on 30/12 0:05
re: can just fcuk off!!!

Same here red_rebel and Cobain, apart from your hair (which is very angelic) that about sums me up to!!

zaphod Posted on 30/12 0:08
re: can just fcuk off!!!

Deathbed conversions don't happen hardly at all. People become less likely to admit they've got it wrong the older they get.

Cobain: "on the whole, my life's been a good one". Says who? By what yardstick? You've spent your whole life living by your own rules and ignoring God, but when you die you're suddenly going to want to spend eternity with God doing God's will? Give me a break. You've chosen your priorities in life, so they'll stay your priorities for eternity - and that seems a pretty good description of hell to me.

comfortable_shoes Posted on 30/12 0:14
re: can just fcuk off!!!

zaphod, who are you to have a go at someone who believes they have lived their life to the best of their abilities and lived to self imposed code. No wonder you chritians come across as pious and rightous people. Reminds me of the joke about the wall in heaven, so that only Catholics think they are there, all other religions are on the other side.

FFS mate, get real. Your last post has made you sound like a right knob, which I'm sure your not!

Scrote Posted on 30/12 0:15
re: can just fcuk off!!!

don't wanna go off on a tangent again but buddy has piqued my curiosity again

the theory of evolution is a theory 'cos it hasn't been proven - until it is its as much a blind leap of faith as believing in God but because it is crouched in scientific terms people have no problem with it

i'm not suggesting that it is wrong - far from it - in fact i have no problems reconciling evolutionary theory and christian faith - just 'cos a bunch of rednecks can't get away from the monkeys to men idea is hardly the fault of the faith itself

i remember a month or so ago the 'hobbit' men being found and someone (pretty sure it was buddy) saying that it was another nail in the coffin of religion - however there was no suggestion that it could be another nail in the coffin of evolutionary theory even though there had so far been no evidence for these 'hobbit' people and no one had suggested that they could exist etc.

i can accept that we don't actually know all there is to know about evolution and am happy to accept the addition to the human family tree - why can you not accept that we don't know everything there is to know about life, the afterlife and all things supernatural??

also how does the evolutionary theory explain the fact that we've seen no evolution taking place? - surely we've been looking long enough or has all evolution occurred? - would be a massive coincidence if we managed to get our heads round the science of it just as it all ends don't you think?

comfortable_shoes Posted on 30/12 0:15
re: can just fcuk off!!!

'Chritians' are very small mice like animals that believe in God by the way

comfortable_shoes Posted on 30/12 0:17
re: can just fcuk off!!!

Hobbit men...evolution???...have you never seen Bellamy play???

comfortable_shoes Posted on 30/12 0:18
re: can just fcuk off!!!

Bollix, I've lost it now....last post on this thread for me!

leap_day_2004 Posted on 30/12 0:25
re: can just fcuk off!!!

There seems so many god these days, which one is the real god and if they are equal which one created what and did they have disagreements?

zaphod Posted on 30/12 0:25
re: can just fcuk off!!!

Sorry for offending your tender sensitibilities, Comfy. You appear willing to dish it out but unable to take anything even mildly critical.

The rules are not mine. They're God's. If you don't like them, you know where to address your complaints. My objective is to explain the rules as clearly set out in the Bible, as is my duty to anyone who shows an interest. You don't believe it; that's your choice, but FFS don't give me any crap about not saying what I believe to be the truth because it might possibly indicate that people will go to hell.

Actually, if anyone looks a knob on the basis of this thread, it's you.

Scrote Posted on 30/12 0:27
re: can just fcuk off!!!

the bit about living your life in a good and moral way has been covered before - the simplest way of looking at it is through judgement

how do you judge what is good and right and how high are your standards?

if you judge yourself against hitler (no not LDFB - the other one ) then you probably come up smelling of roses - but hows about if you use gandhi as the yardstick - how do you compare and how do you think God will judge you when He makes his final decision?

surely to be God He will have the most exacting standards which no person by definition will be able to live up to - does that therefore mean that if we leave it for God to judge us based on our lifes path against His standards that none of us will get to heaven?

no - God himself tells us that we can find salvation through His son - it is that easy - and you don't have to be perfect - just sincere

God made us - He knows our faults and He still loves us - by turning your back on Him you are denying yourself salvation - no-one else is responsible for that

you mention forgiveness cobain - forgiveness for what?? - if you haven't done anything wrong how can you be forgiven??

Scrote Posted on 30/12 0:28
re: can just fcuk off!!!


zzzzz Posted on 30/12 0:33
re: can just fcuk off!!!


'God made us - He knows our faults and He still loves us - by turning your back on Him you are denying yourself salvation - no-one else is responsible for that'

This is where I get lost with it all. Everything has to start somewhere so who made God? And what or who is salvation?

leap_day_2004 Posted on 30/12 0:41
re: can just fcuk off!!!

Zaphod how do you know the rules and when did he tell you them? How old were you and where?

Will i go to hell for asking too many questions? How do we know the bible is true and not just someone made it up?

Where do i address my complaints?

--- Post edited by leap_day_2004 on 30/12 0:44 ---

comfortable_shoes Posted on 30/12 0:44
re: can just fcuk off!!!

Right, one last post then, because I can't be arsed going on and on with listening to such a righteous and virtuous person or should that be ‘parson’ who sounds like he is right up his own arse, goodness me, you give Christians a bad name you do.

Right, I’m off to say my prayers....hang I’m not

p.s. Scrote, your a good lad though!!

--- Post edited by comfortable_shoes on 30/12 0:45 ---

standards Posted on 30/12 0:44
re: can just fcuk off!!!

Its all abit too much hard work for me all this, Its troubling to work out all the MAGNIMA



imagine that

I have some random facts and chat about trees

leap_day_2004 Posted on 30/12 0:45
re: can just fcuk off!!!

Mr shoes, dont get cheeky or disrespectful as he will end up in hell!!

Scrote Posted on 30/12 0:47
re: can just fcuk off!!!

standards - did you know that maple syrup is actually the concentrated urine of the maple squirrel. FACT.

Buddy Posted on 30/12 7:36
re: can just fcuk off!!!

I don't remember picking up on that particular case Scrote, what I do remember is suggesting that the possible existence of bacterial life on Mars caused problems for "God" so loving this particular world that he sent his only son, so I aimed that more at Christianity than religion in general.

Regarding evolution, I'm struggling to understand your angle. Are you accepting, unlike the rednecks you mention, that there is/was a transition from monkeys to humans? Or are you leaving it open to question given that you later question whether we have seen evolution taking place?

I would be utterly amazed if evolution has finished, I'm with you on that. But unfortunately in most circumstances these things tend to take many thousands, possibly millions of years, and we've only been looking for a century or so. I would tentatively put forward the influenza virus as something which evolves quicker than most other organisms in response to environmental conditions though.

OverTheTopAussie Posted on 30/12 8:46
Insert nicer title here

Comfy, you are one of my favourite posters on the board, however ..... I really have to side with zaphod on this one. You have made yourself look a little bit of a nobhead here I'm afraid.

The feel of this thread has been distinctly vitriolic towards Christians throughout and the (sensibly) few who have posted have, I thought, taken a very conciliatory and discussive (if there is such a word) tone rather than responding in kind.

I'm not interested in rehashing what's already been said, but there is one point that has been overlooked so far in this thread. It's mainly Christian organisations that are actually getting in there and helping the people face to face, who are organising additional fundraising (over and above govt contributions) and who the govts of the world will be relying on to deliver the aid that they are promising.

To state my faith position I am a Christian from an evangelical, protestant heritage.

standards Posted on 30/12 8:51
re: can just fcuk off!!!

leave those maple producing squirells alone Scrote END OF

They also produce marmite you know.

sasboro Posted on 30/12 9:23
re: can just fcuk off!!!

i dont think mr comfy shoes has made a knob of himself.

It his right to question these faiths that people follow .

There are plenty of good people who arent religious and many more who are religious and are bad people and many man made problems (wars) evolve around religion. Take away religion and treat everyone on a level playing field and then there would me a large reduction in wars

--- Post edited by sasboro on 30/12 9:43 ---

comfortable_shoes Posted on 30/12 9:31
re: can just fcuk off!!!

Over the top Aussie’ - Scrote and I have discussed this on several occasions and I have no problem with Christians putting their views across, as I have with anyone putting their views across on a range of subject, its what this forum is about.

However, the tone of zaphod's post I felt was very condescending and dismissive towards Cobain and how he leads his life, I made comment. I’m just a simple bloke who thinks the way he does and tries to do the best for his family, no more no less. I get through my life without religion and I don’t need to be lectured to by people who think their way is the only way, as zaphod did. If I seem a knob because of it, fair enough, I am big enough and uglier enough to take the.

.....So, when you say ‘your one of your favourite posters’ does that mean that if you were a woman, you would want me so badly, that you be unable to eat or sleep until you’d had sex with me???

By the way Buddy, agree on with the 'evolution bit'

Thanks sasboro - should I put you on my 'if I were a lass I would shag him too' list?

--- Post edited by comfortable_shoes on 30/12 9:36 ---

OverTheTopAussie Posted on 30/12 9:54
Reinsert a nicer title here

Comfy, I think you misread zaphod's post, which was merely pointing out that none of us is perfect and that perfection is God's standard in what seemed to me a 'banter' style.

Now if zaphod had said "You're going to hell and you deserve it, because you're a non-believing scum" then you would have every right to hit back.

That's one reason why I think you've nobbed up on this one. Second is that you say "I am an atheist and am quite happy with that" yet your post is directly blaming (?) or at least insulting a God you don't believe in.

Third your argument "I just pre-empted the hand ringing and pious deliberations of the religious" is something of an insult to the intelligent, thinking Christians on this site. Now if you had responded with this after a Christian came on and shot their mouth off with some simpering, poorly considered theology it would have been less nobbish and potentially not nob-like at all.

(Thanks for the space and the opportunity to explore various extensions to the word nob. Also as I am a manly gent I politely decline your advances and ask you to cease sending me any more of those photos.)

comfortable_shoes Posted on 30/12 10:07
re: can just fcuk off!!!

Maybe a lot of posts have been misread/misunderstood/misinterpreted/misconstrued etc because I did not mean what you thought I meant, nor did zaphod or me him/you

Anyway, the simple fact of the matter is that Cobain_94 has lovely hair and would make a great angel - FACT

Please can I have those photo’s back, the donkey has run away now and I miss him

sasboro Posted on 30/12 10:07
re: can just fcuk off!!!

always find it strange how people in the italian/US mafia are very religious people/families but never think twice about murdering people. Do they always end up in hell?

OverTheTopAussie Posted on 30/12 10:14
re: can just fcuk off!!!

Sas if I thought that was a serious question I'd look up the Bible verse where it says that faith without works is dead.

Our works will reflect our faith. God sees the hearts of those who go around thumbing their noses at him, saying one thing and doing another. These are the hypocrites that seem to have been stereotyped in this post. Thankfully they are reasonably few and far between these days.

(PS. Not trying to start a theological discussion on the doctrine of salvation being by faith alone and not works, which is a different issue.)

Comfy - that was a donkey? I am both disappointed & relieved.

--- Post edited by OverTheTopAussie on 30/12 10:16 ---

sasboro Posted on 30/12 10:21
re: can just fcuk off!!!

Typical response from a religious person.
i have 100's questions i could ask someone who is religious and i have yet to get a decent answer and explanation when asked them in the past. When i ask too much they get all defensive and get irritated

OverTheTopAussie Posted on 30/12 10:38
re: can just fcuk off!!!

Sas - I didn't think my post was either defensive or irritated.

Since you insist (and I don't have my bible with me) I will answer your question as best I can. Your question was whether murdering "religious" people always end up in hell.

I believe the answer to your question is "Yes" they end up in hell. Only God will decide, but my understanding would be that those people who knowingly do the wrong thing are turning away from God in doing so and denying their faith. By constantly doing so they are ignoring the promptings of the Holy Spirit to change their ways. However I repreat only God will decide and I would not pass judgement on any individual person.

Regarding your post, I would like to point out to you that there is an important distinction between being "religious" and being "a Christian". Being religious does not make you a Christian. I'm sorry if your understanding of Christianity is just thru religious hypocrites.

A cleverer question would have been to contrast one of these thick mafioso who specifically professes their faith on their death bed, confessing their sins after a life of crime, vs a wonderful, 'saintly' person who dies without any profession of faith.

(Edit: oops forgot to alter to the title & can't edit it )

--- Post edited by OverTheTopAussie on 30/12 10:43 ---

sasboro Posted on 30/12 10:46
re: can just fcuk off!!!

sorry was just bunging in christianity in the same pot as all religions and being general.

So i am a non believer and will i end up in hell for that?

When was the 1st time when you believed god existed or have you always thought he existed since you were born or since your parents told you the same thing.

Have you seen a sign that god existed? If so when?

When people pray, do they here his voice answering your prayers? If not then how do you know he has heard and answered your prayers?

ANyway back the the origonal thread, i think the point was along ther lines of if there is a god why did he let this disaster happen? And surely just about all those killed have nothing to cause them to be punished? Could it have been an act of god from one religion onto another?

riverboat_captain Posted on 30/12 10:48
re: can just fcuk off!!!

We get born, we live and then we die. Doesn't really matter whether we die all together on a holiday beach or alone in a ditch.

We live on a tiny speck rock that is hurtling through space so why are people surprised, and why do people question the existence of God just because something like this happens?

red_rebel Posted on 30/12 11:05
re: can just fcuk off!!!

These threads are always interesting and always well into three figures because there is a central irroncilable philosophical divide between faith and science.

And because it is key to most people's personal intellectual outlook or belief system views on this are passionately held.

The religious sincerely assert things "God can see into the heart" "You will be judged by God's standards" that the scientist can never accept becuase it has no basis in fact. Thatis what faith is about, absolute belief in the absence of evidence.

Scientist will expound reams of incontrovertable evidence that will have no impact whatsoever on the faith of the pious.

To be honest I am not bothered what philosophy people use to interpret the world, although I'd prefer they had a consistant and comprehensive one rather than not.

I am not bothered if they pray, seek inner enlightenment or pore over sacred texts. That is a personal choice.

I am only bothered about people's actions, how they conduct themselves in relation to their fellow man and how their behaviour impacts on society.

I know athiests who are selfish, lazy, nasty, small minded and on balance a negative presence in teh world. I know of people of religious bent who are exactly the same.

For me a good Christian with a social conscience and the willingness to do something IN THIS WORLD to improve things (Scrote strikes me as one) is far preferable to a scientific socialist who does not.

Anyone want to talk about teh contradictions inherent in Sandanista Marxist/Catholic worker-priests?

Buddy Posted on 30/12 11:10
re: can just fcuk off!!!

I'm sure there's someone who does but he's probably banned

red_rebel Posted on 30/12 11:15
re: can just fcuk off!!!

I'm sure he is reading though. Maybe he will give us a sign.

OverTheTopAussie Posted on 30/12 11:19
I really do prefer a different title

Sas - thanks for the reasoned, questioning response. I'll do my best. Sorry it's a long question requiring a long answer, apologies to other readers.

1) "So i am a non believer and will i end up in hell for that?"
If you died right now saying you don't believe in God? I think yes (sorry, not being judgemental, we're all sinners, mate). But once again it is God who judges. Is it possible that you get a second chance after you die? Nice as it would be to say yes I don't think I could justify it biblically. Stiil plenty of time for God to have a word before you pop off I hope.

2) "When was the 1st time when you believed god existed or have you always thought he existed since you were born or since your parents told you the same thing."
Yes, I was brought up in a Christian home, went to Sunday School, all that stuff. But I still had to discover for myself that God was real. I thought I was a Christian for a while, but I was only religious. When you meet Jesus it changes your perspective on God.

3) "Have you seen a sign that god existed? If so when?"
Many times. Miraculous healings - back pain of many years for a person I know well healed instantly, answers to prayer (see next question), having discussions with God through the bible.

4) "When people pray, do they here his voice answering your prayers? If not then how do you know he has heard and answered your prayers?"
Some hear a voice, others get a general impression. Best is when you see the answers to your prayers - from little things like the only free parking spot being the closest to the door when on a lightening visit to a kid in hospital with leukemia - to biggies like when I needed to move from Sydney to Adelaide (1600km) I got a transfer with work instead of having to quit because one of only 3 jobs I would take had become vacant the week I advised the company I was going to move. You can say coincidence as much as you like but there have been so many that I know it is God. From hooking up with my wife, to starting a family after miscarriages, fertility drugs and etc, too many things.

5) "ANyway back the the origonal thread, i think the point was along ther lines of if there is a god why did he let this disaster happen? And surely just about all those killed have nothing to cause them to be punished? Could it have been an act of god from one religion onto another?"
God didn't "let the disaster happen" nor was it "punishment" nor was it an inter-religion battle (nice one Sas, hadn't heard that before). God created a world with rules (eg big German plates moving underneath us). It is God's power which keeps those rules in place (gravity, bones knitting, etc - but he don't get no good press for that) and sometimes he miraculously intervenes. He doesn't always intervene because that would remove our free will. Zaphod is right in saying we live in a fallen world and not the garden of Eden and that thsi is also a source of our troubles.

Hope this is not too preachy and I know I'll have made some things more confusing. It's now 9:50pm and I'm sitting at work typing this. I'm now off home to enjoy seeing my family and to eat a well deserved dinner.

moxzin Posted on 30/12 12:08
re: can just fcuk off!!!

Yeah nice one, Zaphod. If all else fails, round on the people trying to support you. I wasn't trying to "defend" God - other people have and done it much better than I. Just putting across my personal view on how this thread seems to be indicative of atheist feeling in todays world.

Mainly it was out of anger at such a pathetically contrived, provocative thread.

As always in debates, if theres someone who can argue my stance better than me, I'll let them. Zaphod and OTTAussie, doing great jobs, I'll back out but my support is there.

sasboro Posted on 30/12 12:19
re: can just fcuk off!!!

cheers for your detailed replys.
How does got look at things if someone marries a non beleiver or from a different religion? What happens if you were to fall in love with someone from a different religion?Can you marry them?

OverTheTopAussie Posted on 30/12 13:36
re: can just fcuk off!!!

Moxy - appreciated your earlier input thanx.

Sas - you have lots of legit questions and I think a more personal setting would be a better place to discuss them. (Oh behave )
I can recommend the "Alpha" course to you. It's a 10 week course covering all the tough issues like "why is there suffering", "what about other religions" and all of that stuff.
Its meant to be open and non-judgemental, not preachy, just informative.
If you are serious about your questions then find out where the nearest course is and go along.

I believe that God actually wants a personal relationship with you. If you go looking for him he won't make himself hard to find.

Scrote Posted on 30/12 14:57
re: can just fcuk off!!!

buddy et al - i think that virii and the like (malarial mosquitos etc.) that we try to eradicate but continue to thwart us fall more towards darwinian selection than to proper 'evolution'

where do bats come from for example - i know all about filling available niches but what initially provided the mechanism of flight to mice*? did they experiment with hang gliders first before deciding to grow extremely long fingers and then developing a skin membrane between the digits AND, quite remarkably, between their feet as well...

i'm not suggesting it was impossible but there is a massive leap of faith needed to accept that a few chance mutations occurred at just the right moments to prevent a mouse/bat hybrid from being eaten by the nearest cat as it spazzed around in cirles on the floor so ending the bat family before it began

duck billed platypus anyone?

lizards losing their tails? - are all lizards descended from one individual (adamzilla) that happened to develop this characteristic or did random mutations happen to a load of lizards at the same time and randomly give them the same superpowers?

i could go on but won't 'cos i agree it is rather silly - i studied zoology at uni for a few years a decade back (i feel old now - cheers) and they had very few answers then - the best one i got was from a lecturer who declared that "God did not exist" before his first lecture to us as if that was the end of the matter (again an athiest bringing his thoughts to bear with no prompting )

i know i've drifted OT again but its hard to answer one point about faith without covering other connected ones (thats my excuse and i'm sticking with it )

*i use mice in the loosest possible sense - just to make typing this out a bit easier

Buddy Posted on 30/12 15:01
re: can just fcuk off!!!

If you're trying to draw a distinction between Darwinian selection and "proper evolution" then I'm off

Scrote Posted on 30/12 15:06
re: can just fcuk off!!!

lmfao - why you yella-bellied...

i think we should just try to catch one of them maple squirrels - i hear they can be quite lucrative

littlejimmy Posted on 30/12 15:25
re: can just fcuk off!!!

Yeah, that one got me as well. Isn't natural selection the whole basis of evolution?

Anyway. I've got to pull up something that someone said on here, and which is always said in these religious debates, i.e. religion causes war. It's complete rubbish to say that. The last 2 world wars were nothing to do with religion. People cause wars. They might use religion as a reason for taking up arms, but I am pretty certain that if there wasn't any religion, they would still find reasons to fight. It's human nature.

Personally, I'm an agnostic. I'm open to offers if God wants to prove his existence to me. As I stand at this moment, there's more hard evidence of the existence of UFOs from distant galaxies. God and UFOs? Hmmm.

Scrote Posted on 30/12 15:38
re: can just fcuk off!!!

lj - technically they are different

evolution is a theorised process of mutation which leads to new species adapted to vacant niches and is still not fully understood by science (seems to happen in fits and spurts but the fossil record is relatively sparse which makes interpretation difficult at the best of times) - probably better called macro-evolution (or something)

darwinian selection is more micro-evolution - beneficial traits are selected through fitness of purpose - eg some birds of paradise suffer greatly for their long tails but the fact they remain alive shows that they are worth mating with which means shorter tails are removed from the population - not new traits added through mutation

also in with this is the galapaos finch stuff whereby traits which allow better access to available food (e.g. beak type) are favoured over other traits which leave you starving

the difference between the two types of 'evolution' is that one makes sense and is observable - the other requires a leap of faith and so far has not been observed by science

to take it much further would mean digging out old dusty text books and actually reading them this time so be gentle

Buddy Posted on 30/12 15:46
re: can just fcuk off!!!

Mcro-evolution becomes macro-evolution given enough time. Howsaboutthatthen? 4.6bn years is quite a lengthy timespan for small changes in beak size to lead from stromalotites (sp) to humans, and indeed dolphins and (much more importantly) bacteria.

littlejimmy Posted on 30/12 15:49
re: can just fcuk off!!!

Opposing thumbs and a big brain are beneficial traits, and that's how we came about, isn't it? Are you saying pure evolution is random mutations? I'm confused now.

standards Posted on 30/12 18:55
re: can just fcuk off!!!

In the style of Neil of The Young Ones

"This is a very heavy thread man"

wogga Posted on 30/12 19:02
re: can just fcuk off!!!

Heavy? It's been suggested on here that God can get you a parking slot. If find that quite funny.

GtownBeerBelly Posted on 30/12 19:10
re: can just fcuk off!!!

It's a heavy subject alright but also interesting. God creates us and a paradise for us to live in then gets nasty by tempting Eve in the full knowledge that she will succumb to temptation, thus turning all nature against us and worse, making us work for a living. Pretty darn twisted God we have here.

Scrote Posted on 30/12 21:43
re: can just fcuk off!!!

tempted how? - in the same way the pope tempts africans to have extra-marital sex?

by telling them NOT to do it??

i suppose the child that gets his arm burned off in a fire should sue his parents for 'tempting' him to put his arm in it when they said "don't touch it - its hot"?

and buddy - micro and macro evolution are two completely different things in the context above - one is the result of specifically bred for traits - the other is the result of mutations that occur in nature and give access to a previously unused niche - however that mutation has to also work on a micro level to propagate the trait through the species - for that to happen there has to be a very quick change from (for instance) mouse to bat - otherwise the in between bits would die out

Buddy Posted on 30/12 22:03
re: can just fcuk off!!!

Sorry mate, not sure I follow your logic. "specifically bred for" implies by human breeders? We're into the realms of flat-faced bulldogs?

Surely if an adaptation works the species hangs on to it, passes it on through the DNA, and starts working on the next one?

It has been noted in terms of tree leaf patterns that different species in similar environmental conditions have evolved similar leaf styles etc., which would tend to suggest that these things can happen independently given the time and conditions for them to do so.

dunf0rt Posted on 30/12 23:14
re: can just fcuk off!!!

Well you learn something new every day. I had somehow thought that natural selection and evolution were the same thing, with some mutations aiding or abetting the selection process. I've never studied it though. Thanks Scrote. I admire your faith and respect your beliefs but theres a couple of things you've said I'd like to query..

how does the evolutionary theory explain the fact that we've seen no evolution taking place? - I think we can see it. The fact that this discussion is taking place at all via this medium is down to the continuing evolution of the human race.

Us not seeing mice mutating into bats doesn't disprove the theory in my eyes. We're just looking at a snapshot of species in our lifetime.

I also agree with Mr Beer Belly - your analogy with a child and a fire falls down because the parent can't make the fire harmless - theres a reason for not wanting the child to put his arm in. What reason did God have for placing Eve's temptation there in the first place? Why doesn't God make fire not burn kids ?

This might not make any sense, I'm wading through all the wine I got at the weekends pagan festival..

BobUpndown Posted on 31/12 11:46
re: can just fcuk off!!!

I was thinking how the events would have been seen in years gone by.. and the implications it has for the faithful..

"Let's turn to history. The date: Nov. 1, 1755. The time: past 9 a.m. on All Saints' Day, a Catholic holiday. The scene: Lisbon, the devoutly Catholic capital of the devoutly Catholic Portuguese empire, shook -- first a big earthquake, then a big tsunami, then a big fire. More than 100,000 people died. "....

it continues..

Link: Wrath..

Azedarac Posted on 31/12 12:30
re: can just fcuk off!!!

After wading through this thread I reckon god-bashing is as boring as god-bothering.

I respect people's beliefs, and some of the most influential people in my life have been very religious. I don't buy this non-believers being doomed though.

My problem is, you either believe something or you don't. You can't MAKE yourself believe something. At best you can educate yourself with enough details to reach a informed position, but your mind will still make a decision of it's own, and you can't change it by act of will. How can you be doomed for something you can't control? You might as well be doomed for liking the colour red.

Cheeky_Chops Posted on 31/12 12:35
re: can just fcuk off!!!

I gasped at the stupidity of the Hindu women on TV last night praying to their God for relief from their suffering. i know they are desperate but it stuck in my throat to see they were still placing hope and faith in a God that by their reasoning let the bloody thing happen in the 1st place.