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Sundance_Kid Posted on 15/1 16:04
Great another stealth tax

Higher earners will have to pay increased fines for many minor offences if a proposed bill becomes law.
The offender's income would be taken in to account and the fine for failing to stop after an accident could triple to 15,000 for a high earner.

The government says it is only fair that the better off pay more but the Tories say it is an attempt to make the middle classes pick up the bill for government failure.

Funny since most crimes are probably committed by poorer people and probably a huge portion of them dont bother or cant pay the fines.

So instead they just raise the fines to those who will and can pay them.

Yarm_Legend Posted on 15/1 16:06
re: Great another stealth tax

Outrageous. This government disgust me. Continuous indirect taxes all the time. They'll charge us to walk on pavements soon.

I was appalled when I heard this on the radio yesterday.

pisces Posted on 15/1 16:06
re: Great another stealth tax

I think it's disgraceful. Two people commit the same crime, but because one of them earns more, he gets the worst punishment.
That's got be be wrong.

Yarm_Legend Posted on 15/1 16:13
re: Great another stealth tax

Exactly Pisces.

What a joke.

So if you're on a decent wedge. You get shafted for a traffic offence etc. Forget the fact you've got a big mortgage, wife and kids to feed and very little spare cash.

But never mind all that. You earn more so you pay more.

It was the same when I went to Uni. Didn't get a grant due to parents being on good salaries. Forget the fact they had a monster mortgage to pay.

Sundance_Kid Posted on 15/1 16:13
re: Great another stealth tax

How could they possibly enforce this. A good wage in the North of the country can be deemed as a poorer one in the south.

I expect the 'fair for all' campaigners any minute now pointing out extreme cases like Jeffery Archer to somehow prove their point.

riverboat_captain Posted on 15/1 16:18
re: Great another stealth tax

Sundance: "Funny since most crimes are probably committed by poorer people and probably a huge portion of them dont bother or cant pay the fines."

True, but the types of crimes commited by the rich, (tax evasion, fraud, dipping into pension funds etc) rob the country (and the poor) of a lot more money.

Here is something to ponder. The most highly taxed countries in Europe (Holland, Germany and the Scandinavians) also have much higher standards of living. I am not against high taxes in principle because we do need to pay for the things that we take for granted. I just wish that (all) governments would be more honest about it.

Grumpy_Paul Posted on 15/1 16:19
re: Great another stealth tax

50 quid fine for dog shiiting on pavement(not that I would let it happen) would hurt me financially more than it would Richard Branson. To pay that 50 quid would mean that I would have to give someting up, to Richaed Branson it would be just 50 quid less in the bank.
On that basis there is some merit in the proposal

Sundance_Kid Posted on 15/1 16:22
re: Great another stealth tax

True, but the types of crimes commited by the rich, (tax evasion, fraud, dipping into pension funds etc) rob the country (and the poor) of a lot more money.

Yes but how rich is rich?

Im not talking about rich drug lords or corrupt business executives, Im not talking about your average 20,000 - 50,000 per year people.

Why should the majority suffer because of corrupt officals?

Yarm_Legend Posted on 15/1 16:26
re: Great another stealth tax

Why should somebody pay more for the same offence than somebody else. It's ridiculous.

riverboat_captain Posted on 15/1 16:28
re: Great another stealth tax

Depends what you call more. How about the same percentage?

Sundance_Kid Posted on 15/1 16:29
re: Great another stealth tax

Why stop there?

Maybe next time I go shopping Ill just show the shop counter my wage slip so they can charge me accordingly.

BillHicksBoro Posted on 15/1 16:29
re: Great another stealth tax

I'm with grumpy on this, Fines are supposed to be a deterant, how is 50 going to be a deterant to someone on 100k a year, where as to poor student supporting me, it'd be liveable, but a kick in the teeth.

The idea is that its ultimately the same punishment, although the figures are different, both parties would feel the same feeling of 'ballsacks, that was a lot of money to lose'.

The simplest arguement is, if your not committing offences, hows it going to hurt you?

P.S. I hate the government but the Tories were wanting the same thing not so long ago, so they can't really talk.

Yarm_Legend Posted on 15/1 16:31
re: Great another stealth tax

What if you're on a decent wedge loaded with debt with mortgage, car, kids etc???

You may only have the same disposable income as somebody in a very low paid job. You buy houses cars etc to fit your salary.

Just because you earn more it doesn't mean you have more disposable income.

Grumpy_Paul Posted on 15/1 16:32
re: Great another stealth tax

A fine pro rata to ones income comes somewhat closer to being even handed than to fine a 20000 grand a year earner the same as a 100000 grand a year earner the same amount for the same offence.
It's about percentages rather that straight numbers.
Equal impact for same offence.

Sundance_Kid Posted on 15/1 16:32
re: Great another stealth tax

The fact is this whole proposal is just the easiest way out.

Its targetting the average middle class law abiding person.

The super rich will still remain untouched and it just ignores the real issues that most crime is caused by lower classes who also remain untouched.

Plus Yarm Legend is correct. Higher wages usually means you pay out higher for different things.
Thats the whole benefit of being on a higher wage.

--- Post edited by Sundance_Kid on 15/1 16:36 ---

guyr Posted on 15/1 16:36
re: Great another stealth tax

Yarm legend UR right, imagine going into the shops to be told, price is more because you earn more.

Just because the supposedly better off actually are honest enough to pay fines this Gov wants to screw them even more.

It's about time they stomped on those villians/continual offenders who laugh at the courts system and know all the tricks to get away repeat offences. I have always thought we should have a system of detention centres where liberty is lost for part of the day. i.e if the person works they go there to and from work and lose the freedom we all take for granted. Obviously this could not be used for all types of offences as there are some crimes where prison has to be dished out.

Anyway Blair and his crooked pals didn't get my vote last time so not surprised in the least by the "polotics of envy" they carry out.

riverboat_captain Posted on 15/1 16:36
re: Great another stealth tax

Yarm,
Poor people can be mortgaged up to the eyeballs as well, but someone on high wages would find it easier to raise/borrow the cash.

Lets face it, if you want to break the law then you should keep a slush fund to pay for the resulting fines.

Grumpy_Paul Posted on 15/1 16:37
re: Great another stealth tax

Sundance
Middle class law abiding people will not be subject to this 'stealth tax' as you describe it.
They are law abiding after all

janplanner Posted on 15/1 16:37
re: Great another stealth tax

i don't agree with this at all.

But i don't see how can it be targetting law-abiding people???

BigAlDaPostie Posted on 15/1 16:37
re: Great another stealth tax

Heres a thought. Dont break the law, and you'll be ok.

PhillyMac Posted on 15/1 16:42
re: Great another stealth tax

Following this logic, young people should spend more time in prison than an older person (for the same offence).

Six months in the slammer is nowt to a 16 year-old who has his whole life in front of him. Six months to a 60 year-old could be a large proportion of the time he has left on this earth. The geriatric would have to give up something that he really wanted to do, but the youngster could easily compenstate. Therefore, the kid should do 2 years for the same thing that an auld bloke would do 6 months for.

Who's with me?

Yarm_Legend Posted on 15/1 16:43
re: Great another stealth tax

Let's face it. Anybody who says they don't speed is a bullshhitter.

I do it daily and don't see why I should pay more than somebody else if I'm caught.

ST0CK0 Posted on 15/1 16:44
re: Great another stealth tax

I think it makes sense, How many on here thinks a 420 fine for racist chants at a footy match sounds fair punishment?

To many on this board i guess 420 fine would be deemed as a punishment, but to a multi million pound football club it cannot be a punishment surely.

Beelzeebub Posted on 15/1 16:45
re: Great another stealth tax

Can't believe people are whingeing about this. Rich people in London have traditionally viewed car parking tickets as just an expense in other words they just pay it and couldn't give a sh it! How is that a deterent.

I'm with Big Al - don't break the law and you don't have to pay it!

Sundance "targetting the average middle class law abiding person" yeah right, dipstick!

Yarm_Legend Posted on 15/1 16:46
re: Great another stealth tax

But a 6000 fine to the guy doing the chanting is a punishment.

Sundance_Kid Posted on 15/1 16:47
re: Great another stealth tax

Ah the old everythings black or white stance.

Everyone has done a minor crime in their life but they are still largely law abiding. Id hardly call 5 MPh over the speed limit, dogs cr*pping in the street, parking your car in a street, p*ssing in the street as the crime of the century.


If I get caught doing any of those things then Ill cough up but I dont see why I should have to pay more because Im more successful than someone who p*ssed away his life

Grumpy_Paul Posted on 15/1 16:48
re: Great another stealth tax

30k per week prem player fined two weeks wages by manager for indiscipline virtually laugh it off.
If I was fined two week wages at work I would really feel the impact as would just about everyone on this board

BigAlDaPostie Posted on 15/1 16:48
re: Great another stealth tax

Cant understand the need for speed??

The speed limits are set as a LIMIT, NOT a target.

Each time you get caught speeding you the penalty should increase heavily. After 3 such offences an automatic 12 months ban.

Maybe then you'll learn NOT to speed.

People DIE through speeding motorists, if you cant be trusted not to speed, away should go your license.

ST0CK0 Posted on 15/1 16:50
re: Great another stealth tax

YL, who was the person fined 6000?

Sundance_Kid Posted on 15/1 16:52
re: Great another stealth tax

Can't believe people are whingeing about this. Rich people in London have traditionally viewed car parking tickets as just an expense in other words they just pay it and couldn't give a sh it! How is that a deterent.

Provide them with places to park then? How many city centres have suitable places to park for free since they already paid road tax. Chances are none.

If someone wants pays a fine every week let them, it means more money in the coffers.

BigAlDaPostie do you drive?

--- Post edited by Sundance_Kid on 15/1 16:55 ---

riverboat_captain Posted on 15/1 16:52
re: Great another stealth tax

Sundance says:

"Ah the old everythings black or white stance."
and then...
"I dont see why I should have to pay more because Im more successful than someone who p*ssed away his life"

So anyone who is less successful than you has p*ssed away his life eh?
Thanks for explaining it in black and white for me.

Grumpy_Paul Posted on 15/1 16:54
re: Great another stealth tax

Philly
Prison is a different matter and probably out of context. Totally different criteria used when deciding leangth of sentance,

billyboro Posted on 15/1 16:59
re: Great another stealth tax

Isn't the law in this country supposed to be blind?

riverboat_captain Posted on 15/1 17:00
re: Great another stealth tax

No, that's the law enforcers.

Grumpy_Paul Posted on 15/1 17:01
re: Great another stealth tax

Legend

'Let's face it. Anybody who says they don't speed is a bullshhitter.

I do it daily and don't see why I should pay more than somebody else if I'm caught.'

You do it daily Eh?
Yes, I know, you have stated this on previous threads
When the day comes that your speeding either causes an otherwise avoidable accident or makes an accident worse than it otherwise might have been. I HOPE YOU FEEL PROUD.
I have a friend who was recently involved in an accident where a fatallity occurred. Try using your logic on him.

BigAlDaPostie Posted on 15/1 17:03
re: Great another stealth tax

No I dont drive, what has that got to do with it.

Sundance_Kid Posted on 15/1 17:04
re: Great another stealth tax

So anyone who is less successful than you has p*ssed away his life eh?
Thanks for explaining it in black and white for me.

Riverboat eight month ago I was on minimum wage.
Im now on a better wage but still sub-standard to what older people I know who are in the same profession get, but no doubt the longer I spend in this profession the higher the wage I get.

If your on a lower wage than minimum wage then your not really doing much with your life are you?

BigAl, if you dont drive then I fail to see how you can lecture people who do?
Come back when you do own, pay, run a car and have to go on a 30 mile journey every day to work.
Then you might know what your talking about.

--- Post edited by Sundance_Kid on 15/1 17:07 ---

Yarm_Legend Posted on 15/1 17:11
re: Great another stealth tax

Come on Grumpy Paul.

I appreciate what you are saying and quite agree.

I'm not talking speeding around. I work in Newcastle and do the A19 everyday. Everybody goes a little bit over 70mph. This is a different thread issue and I don't wish to discuss further.

Link: Supporter Fined 6000Eur

riverboat_captain Posted on 15/1 17:14
re: Great another stealth tax

Sundance, if you are on "sub-standard" wages then you have nothing to fear.

BigAlDaPostie Posted on 15/1 17:17
re: Great another stealth tax

You dont decide what the speed LIMIT is or isnt, the Government do. You obviously cant do your job without your car so why risk losing it by speeding? The LIMIT is there for a very good reason. A child hit by a car going 40mph has an 80% chance of dying. A child hit by a car going 30mph has a 80% chance of survival. Thats the reason the limits are there. If you dont like it you shouldnt be on the road. I personally knew a couple of people who have been killed and injured by speeding motorists. Its against the law, dont do it, expect the book thrown at you if you do.

Sundance_Kid Posted on 15/1 17:19
re: Great another stealth tax

I will when I move onto higher wages.

Again BigAl dont quote the offcial rules to me when you know nothing about them.




--- Post edited by Sundance_Kid on 15/1 17:25 ---

leap_day_2004 Posted on 15/1 17:22
re: Great another stealth tax

what people dont realise is that eventually we will all be paying 40% tax, cos infations/salary increases are rising faster than what increases the government puts on the the tax brackets.

A more extreme example is stamp duty. as the the stamp duty levels have never moved

Kilburn Posted on 15/1 17:25
re: Great another stealth tax

I disagree with this idea. Fines aren't a good punishment to most people, and simply changing the level of them for some won't do any good.

Poor, generally law-abiding people are the only ones who pay fines and are badly affected by them. Habitual criminals just don't bother to pay them, and better off people aren't really affected by having to pay.

Much better to make people do community service or something similar that actually affects their lives, and makes people think about what they have done wrong. This affects everyone equally.

ST0CK0 Posted on 15/1 17:25
re: Great another stealth tax

Bigal, every person on this board has broken the speed limit, as you will, when you get a car, The speeding stats that you quote about a childs chance of death or survival are based on minor roads, ask anyone on this board if they speed on minor roads and the number will be dramatically reduced from those that speed on dual carriageways or motorways.

Sundance_Kid Posted on 15/1 17:26
re: Great another stealth tax

Read this link BigAl. Thats how much the laws are obeyed, even my the people who make them.

Link: Hypocrit

leap_day_2004 Posted on 15/1 17:27
re: Great another stealth tax

Do you also have to take into account someone family situation? eg if they have children or id they are divorced and paying lots out in maintenance. Should a person with no dependents pay a bigger fine than a family person?.

Blogsworth Posted on 15/1 17:33
re: Great another stealth tax

So much for everyone being equal under the law....this goverment will do anything to part us from our hard earned....When Labour reinvented themselves after the 4th successive drubbing by the Tories in 93 they should have named themselves New Conservatives because they bare no resemblance to any Labour goverment that I have lived under...

Yarm_Legend Posted on 15/1 17:34
re: Great another stealth tax

Anybody who has stated they don't speed on this thread is a hypocrit Sundance.

There is not one motorist that could look us in the eye and state they've never sped. There's a few on this board that crack me up with their hypocricy in their bid to become FMTTM citizen of the year. Unbelievable.

I don't speed in built up areas. Due to the dangers. I do admit to putting a few mph on top of 70mph when I use major roads and it is safe to do so. May I also add - These are the safest of all roads.

FRANKIE_WEBSTER Posted on 15/1 17:42
re: Great another stealth tax

New Labour make me sick- not only do they toady to a government that is hell bent on creating a fundamentalist Christian union (i.e. America), but they also believe it to be right to take money off people who have rightly earned it.

The great cry of the socialist, and yes- I believe New Labour to be socialist, they just hide it well- is that the rich should pay for being rich.

Obviously these people have no understanding of macroeconomic policy: if people have more money (i.e. the government taxes less), then the economy is more efficient and distribution of wealth is carried out by increased employment levels and increased living quality. But, most socialists (in my opinion) have an average IQ of 7 and wouldn't be able to grasp such a fundamental concept.

New Labour have successfully held power by shifting themselves well to the right of the political spectrum: e.g. David Blunkett had links with Christian fundamentalist groups, and had a lot of time for them; thus attracting both the support of the working classes (who are, invariably, right wing in attitude) and various authoritarian nutcases (e.g. Bush).

That's how we've ended up with this lot: any hard left socialist party would have been kicked to death by the electorate- socialism does not tally with the will of the majority, in fact it is seen as the bastion of pinkoes and do-gooders, and not the "patriotic working man".

Grumpy_Paul Posted on 15/1 17:53
re: Great another stealth tax

Blogsworth

Try Working time Directive, Try Minimum wage

Neither are brilliant but do you think any other government would have introduced them.

Shed loads more on schools and health. Problem there is the management of the money. If the government intefere with that, then of course it's the nanny state they should keep out of it and allow the mis-managers squander our resources.
Just can't win.
Wouldn't be a politico me like

Grumpy_Paul Posted on 15/1 17:55
re: Great another stealth tax

C'mon, C'mon. I'll take you all on.
The new Moxy, thet's me.



Sorry lads and lasses, just joking, honest

zzzzz Posted on 15/1 17:59
re: Great another stealth tax

MAKES ME PUKE.

Two men commit the same offence...

Bloke A gets 80K a year, has a big mortgage, pays a big lump into a pension coz he knows the Gov. wont provide for him, is putting 2 kids through Uni, hasnt got a bean to spare, pays a big wedge of tax that goes towards supporting

Bloke B who's a feckin slob, on the dole, hasnt struck a bat for years, gettin the house paid for, in the club every dinner and night, never puts anything away to retire, coz he can sponge off the rest of us for the rest of his life

and Bloke A should pay a lot more for the same offence as Bloke B!

And dont come back with "well you shouldnt break the law", thats not the point. Its about equality under the law.

Blogsworth Posted on 15/1 18:03
re: Great another stealth tax

Like I said we are ALL supposed to be equal under the law...

Grumpy_Paul Posted on 15/1 18:08
re: Great another stealth tax

zzzzz

Good point and well stated.
Question is, how do we make the system fair?
straight pounds and pence seems unfair to me compared to some kind of pro rata formula

bespana Posted on 15/1 18:10
re: Great another stealth tax

Too true Frankie ,we've finished up with the biggest pack of money grabbers possible in power - a PM trying to rent out a 4 million pound house and and 2 flats,with his missus shortly to become a judge - his deputy with 5 houses - new labour my a---.

leap_day_2004 Posted on 15/1 18:15
re: Great another stealth tax

1 minute the government want us to stop spending and save more, then they threaten to take away our saving by having a sliding scale on fines. Seems to me the best thing is to spend all your cahs and if they fine you, then show them you have no money to give em.

Where does it stop? will there be a sliding scale for all punishment. eg for dropping litter you get a 1000 pound fine if you earn 100k, but if a lazy doley you only pay 10 quid?

Then will it move from fines to standard bills, such as electricity..pay more if you earn more?

ST0CK0 Posted on 15/1 18:22
re: Great another stealth tax

We have all seen pictures of mega rich stars receiving parking tickets in the daily star, "oh dear, thats going to cost me 60 quid" says dwight yorke/frank lampard.

My point is why should i have to pay a days wages for parking on double yellow lines, and they pay 2 minutes wages for the same offence?

Sundance_Kid Posted on 15/1 18:28
re: Great another stealth tax

ST0CK0 then dont give them your season ticket money?

Its us who fund these mega football stars.

--- Post edited by Sundance_Kid on 15/1 18:29 ---

ST0CK0 Posted on 15/1 18:29
re: Great another stealth tax

leap day, your standard bills quote is just silly, the point of the thread is punishment by way of fines, so how can a 60 pound fine be deemed a punishment if the person getting the fine is on 100k?
Would it bother you if you were fined a quid for parking on double yellow lines, would you bother looking for a parking space? i guess you would not, because a quid is nothing to pay.

ST0CK0 Posted on 15/1 18:33
re: Great another stealth tax

sundance_kid, I dont think that will work, somehow.

Sundance_Kid Posted on 15/1 18:35
re: Great another stealth tax

Why?

ST0CK0 Posted on 15/1 18:36
re: Great another stealth tax

Just a hunch.

Sundance_Kid Posted on 15/1 18:45
re: Great another stealth tax

No by all means, please share it with us?

How many of us are all mege rich football stars? Hardly any but because 0.00001% of the population are the rest of us have to fork out extra?

--- Post edited by Sundance_Kid on 15/1 18:48 ---

leap_day_2004 Posted on 15/1 18:51
re: Great another stealth tax

Isnt prison the best way to punish people across the board equally?
or in the case of car 'crimes' by drivers then banning them also an equal way of punishing across the baord

BigAlDaPostie Posted on 15/1 18:54
re: Great another stealth tax

Read the link sundance, however he is above the law andwill therefore get a slap on the wrists. Cops are probably the worst offenders and he should have the book thrown at him. So its a case of "Everyone else is doing it, so why cant I". Sorry but that cuts no slack from me. No-one should be speeding above the limit. Dont care what road you are on. Would you feel the same way if one of your close family had been struck by a car that was travelling over the limit. I dont think so. Im not quoting rules, Im telling you the LAW. But having already passed your test you should know them.

ST0CK0 Posted on 15/1 18:57
re: Great another stealth tax

Sundance, A days wages seems fair enough for parking on double yellow lines.
As long as everyone gets fined a days wage for the same offence, its ok by me.

leap_day_2004 Posted on 15/1 19:03
re: Great another stealth tax

So it's fair to fine a millionaire about 1000 pounds for parking on a double yellow line.

for example would you fine steve gibson about 2k for parking on a yellow line if he was maiing a million a year?

Sundance_Kid Posted on 15/1 19:04
re: Great another stealth tax

Yes it is leap_day but the Govt arent interested since it doesnt generate money.

BigAl you can just tell you do not drive a car. Sometimes breaking the speeding limit is necessary.

I dont mind speed limits in urban areas since thats where MOST accidents happen yet it didnt stop the Govt coating Britians motorways where speed is the highest yet its where the road casualties are lowest.
The fact that I could be done speeding because I had to move out into the outside lane to let someone out of a slip road is the bit that annoys me.

Grrreds Posted on 15/1 19:08
re: Great another stealth tax

Surely, if you don't break the law it's all an irrelevance ?

Also I find it strange that some people who only commit motoring offences continue to believe that they are "law-abiding citizens".

Chutney Posted on 15/1 19:09
re: Great another stealth tax

Not sure exactly what I feel about the proposal, but as a means of encouraging people to demonstrate exactly how self-absorbed and ignorant they are, it can't be beat.

Sundance_Kid Posted on 15/1 19:11
re: Great another stealth tax

ST0CK0 your missing the point of why people do it?

How many city centres have you been to lately? Despite paying road tax and car tax I still have to pay extra to park somewhere remotely near where I need to be even for say twenty minutes.

If places were provided to park for free then people WOULDNT do it but again thats too radical since parking for free doesnt generate cash.

ST0CK0 Posted on 15/1 19:11
re: Great another stealth tax

If steve gibson is earning 2k a day then yes he should be fined that amount for parking on double yellow lines.
I pay a days wages why shouldnt he?

BigAlDaPostie Posted on 15/1 19:12
re: Great another stealth tax

Try using public transport. Moaning drivers. Grrreds I agree, they must be breaking the law every single day.

Sundance_Kid Posted on 15/1 19:15
re: Great another stealth tax

Why should I?

Besides I dont think the Govt would be too keen on people leaving their cars either.

ST0CK0 Posted on 15/1 19:17
re: Great another stealth tax

I know what you mean about parking sundance, but as i am only on about 60 a day, i am prepared to spend time looking for somewhere to park, as i am not prepared to pay a fine of 60, but if i was earning 600 a day, i wouldnt give ashit, i would park on double yellows and pay the 60 fine.

Chutney Posted on 15/1 19:18
re: Great another stealth tax

No reason at all Sundance, no reason at all.

Fancy someone asking you to contemplate a course of action in direct conflict with your preferred position of blinkered self-interest.

They'll be saying the world doesn't revolve around you next.

BigAlDaPostie Posted on 15/1 19:19
re: Great another stealth tax

Well you have a choice, use public transport, or dont complain about being charged for parking. I never complain about being charged for parking because I depend on public transport to get me from A to B. And when I use my mountain bike on the roads I dont pay road tax, insurance or petrol, and maintenance is pretty cheap too. Not to mention the exercise it gives me.

Grrreds Posted on 15/1 19:27
re: Great another stealth tax

The penalty for breaking the law is meant to be a deterrent, and for many offences, mainly motoring, the penalty is a fine.

If I commit the same offence as, for example, Rio Ferdinand, I think it not unreasonable that he be fined more than me.

Sundance_Kid Posted on 15/1 19:27
re: Great another stealth tax

Funny how there isnt a third option of my tax money providing places to park.

Ah well, I guess thats what youd get in other peoples preferred totalitarian states of public transport or nothing.

No mention that our public transport would be ill equipped to serve everybody and Ill just point out that there isnt any public transport to where I work.

--- Post edited by Sundance_Kid on 15/1 19:30 ---

BoroGrecian Posted on 15/1 19:31
re: Great another stealth tax

leap_day_2004: Please no more people put into prison for silly offences, we're already over-croweded as it is.

Put it this way, the POA (prison officers association) are proposing that if the prison population reaches more than 80,000 that we should go for a blanket lock out in protest. We can't cope with the amount we have now, so perhaps bigger fines for larger earners might actually prove a deteriant and keep out the daft short sentence (7, 10 and 14 days)

BoroGrecian Posted on 15/1 19:32
re: Great another stealth tax

Oh and IT'S NOT A CHUFFING STEALTH TAX IF YOU CAN AVOID NOT PAYING IT BY NOT SPEEDING IN THE FIRST PLACES

You have to pay taxes, you DON'T HAVE TO PAY SPEEDING FINES!

Sundance_Kid Posted on 15/1 19:38
re: Great another stealth tax

Just a point but maybe prisons are over crowded because the standards inside can be better than that of your lowest paid (or unemployed) person outside.

The British Govt made this mistake before but looks like we never learnt.

--- Post edited by Sundance_Kid on 15/1 19:38 ---

Chutney Posted on 15/1 19:43
re: Great another stealth tax

Eeesh, so many hidden agendas and shoulder chips.

Care to lay into asylum seekers next, SK?

leap_day_2004 Posted on 15/1 19:43
re: Great another stealth tax

So what if prisons are over crowded, they are there for a reason and not to relax and feel comfortable. It's not meant to be a hotel is it?

Sundance_Kid Posted on 15/1 19:51
re: Great another stealth tax

Chutney what are you going on about?

Back in the 1800's boffins managed to figure out that if your going to send people to prison (or workhouses) then they've got to be worse than your lowest paid (or unemployed) person's conditions outside otherwise it doesnt work.

Read up on it if you dont believe me.

Smig62 Posted on 15/1 19:51
re: Great another stealth tax

If you get caught pissing in a public place, should the fine reflect the size of your cock?

littlejimmy Posted on 15/1 19:58
re: Great another stealth tax

I don't bother reading the Daily Mail. I just have to read threads like this to see what the poor, put-upon middle-classes think. It's great.

littlejimmy Posted on 15/1 19:59
re: Great another stealth tax

And back in the 1800s they thought manned flight was impossible. The world has moved on quite a bit since then. Or are you calling for a return to Victorian values?

Sundance_Kid Posted on 15/1 20:06
re: Great another stealth tax

Although on the other hand Benjamin Franklin's ideas from the 1700's still survive today?
So to, do many medical and technological ideas still hold water.

--- Post edited by Sundance_Kid on 15/1 20:08 ---

littlejimmy Posted on 15/1 20:12
re: Great another stealth tax

You should invent a time machine and bugger off back there then. You'd fit in well and would love to have those lazy poor people doffing their caps at you.

Sundance_Kid Posted on 15/1 20:18
re: Great another stealth tax

Why the anger LJ, why the sly digs?

I thought you were a Liberal, tut tut.

littlejimmy Posted on 15/1 20:21
re: Great another stealth tax

Nothing sly or subtle about them. I just don't like you.

Chutney Posted on 15/1 20:21
re: Great another stealth tax

What exactly is this epoch-boomeranging actually supposed to prove.

I'd tell you to sit down and shut up, but you're already way out of your depth.

Stealth tax my arse.

Sundance_Kid Posted on 15/1 20:28
re: Great another stealth tax

By the way it was liberals who actually found out that prisons have to be worse than outside conditions first but failed to act.

Probably which is why most people have realised how ridiculous their ideals are which is also why they have never been close to a popular party since.

Funny how you're the first to resort to insults too, I thought you were all supposed to be nice?

--- Post edited by Sundance_Kid on 15/1 20:28 ---

riverboat_captain Posted on 15/1 20:34
re: Great another stealth tax

Sundance, just because some theorys from centurys ago hold water, it doesn't mean that they all do. Otherwiswe women wouldn't have the vote.

The fact is that this country, like our friends the Americans, jail far to many of our population, and it doesn't work. We have probably the worst crime figures in Western Europe.

littlejimmy Posted on 15/1 20:35
re: Great another stealth tax

Sorry I can't conform to your steretyping. Would it disappoint or even confuse you to know that I don't wear sandals and have long hair either?

riverboat_captain Posted on 15/1 20:51
re: Great another stealth tax

Black and white again SD? All liberals are nice.

littlejimmy Posted on 15/1 20:51
re: Great another stealth tax

Bless him. He tries. It's like moxzin without the charm or wit.

Sundance_Kid Posted on 15/1 21:17
re: Great another stealth tax

"Sundance, just because some theorys from centurys ago hold water, it doesn't mean that they all do".

Yes I know but others do. I just explained that to LJ but because it doesnt conform to his ideals he cant put in a argument, so instead tries to be funny which doesnt come off very well.
He just tries to hard to be funny, poor lad.

Our current prison system doesnt practise the ideal that prisons should be worse than any living conditions outside and that is why I think we are jailing too many people.

Put it this way, if someone can gain a better way of life by crime than working for a living what option do yo think they will choose?
Even when they are caught and are put in prison, if the living conditions are still better for them inside than out then they will still retain a life of crime.

As you can imagine it was pretty hard to make living conditions worse inside a prison than outside back in the 1800's because most people lived in squaller.
However now the standard of living is higher these days it can be achieved.

Thats the whole reason of a detterant which prison isnt anymore.

--- Post edited by Sundance_Kid on 15/1 21:18 ---

davvyman Posted on 15/1 21:18
re: Great another stealth tax

A...AAAAA....AAAAAAAAAAAY

littlejimmy Posted on 15/1 21:34
re: Great another stealth tax

Unlike some areas of medical science which may still hold water, the way a civilised country treats its citizens has moved on. We have developed in our views of our fellow human beings. We don't send kids to work any more. We don't execute people any more. Prison is seen as a rehabilitation as much as a punishment these days, and that's the way it's going to continue, because people can be rehabilitated. We might not have perfected it yet, but I prefer this way to treating them like animals. They stand a better chance of coming out and contributing to society again. Just because you commit a crime doesn't mean you should lose everything. People make mistakes or do things out of desperation. We're not going to regress to prison like it was in 1890. It's not going to happen.

Chutney Posted on 15/1 21:41
re: Great another stealth tax

"However now the standard of living is higher these days it can be achieved."

He's right you know, and his inspiring words should give all of us the impetus to dedicate every fibre of our being to such a worthy and lofty goal.

Here's the plan, Sunny. I'll scour the lengths and breadths of the country torelessly and not rest until I've found the law abiding citizen who lives in the most foul, depressing, insanitary, fetid, stinking, charmless and unconfortable abode in the land, and then I'll forward on the details to you so that you can present them to the Home Secretary and - with no little pride, I'm sure - announce "make it happen".

Only then can we truly call ourselves intelligent men.

Sundance_Kid Posted on 15/1 21:47
re: Great another stealth tax

Its far from perfected.

Most inmates return to prison within five years and humans havn't quite moved on as much as you would like to believe.

Prision populations show no sign of reducing, infact its quite the opposite.

Sorry weve seen it in history before and we will see it again and Ill place a 20 bet that within say the next 20 years of this current system, the cost of prisons will spiral out of control, a commitee will be setup to investigate the matter, they will probably come to the conclusions Ive pointed out and the Govt will carry them out.

Dont be worried though, tough conditions and laws tend spawn good systems eventually, the NHS as a prime example.

littlejimmy Posted on 15/1 21:53
re: Great another stealth tax

I can't wait.

Regression is never the answer. The NHS hasn't regressed, and isn't really a good comparison for me. I don't see what tough laws have done for it.

We are developing in our views and will continue to do so. Even attempts by the government to bypass due process with their terrorism laws have been scuttled by the House of Lords.

Sundance_Kid Posted on 15/1 21:56
re: Great another stealth tax

The poor laws could at least be argued as being a catalyst for the NHS.

littlejimmy Posted on 15/1 21:57
re: Great another stealth tax

In what way?

Sundance_Kid Posted on 15/1 22:00
re: Great another stealth tax

To keep it brief it made people undertsand the ways of why they were poor, what made them be poor, how old people could be treated, how benefits could help the unemployed. etc.

Workhouses more or less gave birth to large hospitals for the sick and infirm.
The General Hospital use to be a workhouse.

littlejimmy Posted on 15/1 22:06
re: Great another stealth tax

Surely that shows that better conditions for the poorest have been beneficial then, doesn't it? Improved conditions have meant longer life-spans and better health all round for the poor. I'm sure that's the idea behind penal reform as well. If you treat people better, they behave better. It's not working perfectly, as I've already said, but it's much more preferrable to treating them like filth.

Sundance_Kid Posted on 15/1 22:12
re: Great another stealth tax

but the argument about poor people and criminals must be separate otherwise as people have said, why would rich people break the law?

Im not talking about petty crime but more serious crimes, drugs, murder etc.

--- Post edited by Sundance_Kid on 15/1 22:13 ---

Atoning_Unifex Posted on 15/1 22:13
re: Great another stealth tax

Following on from what littlejimmy said, I think the key to reducing prison numbers is not by making prison conditions worse, but to tackle the problem at source. The majority of crime is routed in problems such as drug addiction, violent home environments, and abuse. Surely if we tackle these problems, we are much more likely to reduce the amount of crime than making prison conditions worse?

littlejimmy Posted on 15/1 22:14
re: Great another stealth tax

Spot on.

Sundance_Kid Posted on 15/1 22:22
re: Great another stealth tax

True but unless those problems are sorted in the next ten years or so (which be honest is un-realistic, we are talking about fixing almost every human frailty) the prison service will be over run.

I also think your under-estimating that many criminals try to break the law because they can with little re-percutions (if caught).

Atoning_Unifex Posted on 15/1 22:22
re: Great another stealth tax

SK: If you're only talking about serious crimes such as drugs and murder, do you think a potential murderer or drug dealer would be less likely to commit crime if the government removed televisions, books and soft toilet paper from prisons?

Poverty and abuse are both key ingredients in producing a disfunctional and vulnerable member of society, and by tackling these social issues drug abuse and violent crime can be prevented instead of cured (IMO).

--- Post edited by Atoning_Unifex on 15/1 22:23 ---

--- Post edited by Atoning_Unifex on 15/1 22:25 ---

Sundance_Kid Posted on 15/1 22:29
re: Great another stealth tax

What else are they supposed to do?

Fix a camera in everybody's house and send round a crack squad of police on the hint of violence abuse or drugs?

Its impossible.

--- Post edited by Sundance_Kid on 15/1 22:32 ---

Atoning_Unifex Posted on 15/1 22:34
re: Great another stealth tax

No not at all. That's what Social Services are for. I think most people would agree that there is huge room for improvement in Social Services.

The government has also recently announced the intended creation of a nationwide force (the equivalent of the FBI) who will concentrate on organised crime and drugs barons. I have no idea how successful this will be, but I think it's a move in the right direction.

BoroGrecian Posted on 16/1 9:50
re: Great another stealth tax

leap_day: I'm not saying Prison should be comfortable, what I am saying is that if the inmate population goes over the 80,000 mark you'll have no where to put your sodding prisoners because the Prison Officers will be locking out every prison in England and Wales....i.e CLOSING THEM DOWN due to over crowding!

BoroGrecian Posted on 16/1 9:57
re: Great another stealth tax

A little information for those who think prison is an easy life.

In most prisons there are incentive schemes where by you have to work for your privilages like a TV and a radio.

If your on a Basic regime you don't get either, you are expected to attend education and work for longer periods of the day and if you don't your pulled in for a adjudication in front of the duty governor, this can involve punishments of segregation loss of what privilages you may have etc.

Enhanced Prisoners are the ones who may already have a skill, shown a level of commitment towards rehibilitation, behave themselves on the wings and show general good behaviour. These are the prisoners who will get the extra privilages of a TV and Radio, extra association time and two canteen sessions a week.

ANY trangression in the rules of Enhanced Prisoner status will see you busted back down to Basic level and the loss of many of your privilages, including the amount of time you can spend on the telephone to family and friends.

The majority of Prisoners in this country in the termed 'Local' prisons (e.g remand centres and direct from court centres) are on a basic regime.

Oh and believe me the bog roll in Prisons still isn't soft!...well not unless you use the governors lavvy!

Sundance_Kid Posted on 16/1 9:59
re: Great another stealth tax

Its alright, just send the surplus prisoners round Chutneys and LJ's humble abodes to serve out their sentences and reform themselves since they care so much for prisoners well being.

They shoudnt mind, afterall arent they the warm hearted liberals they claim to be

--- Post edited by Sundance_Kid on 16/1 10:00 ---

Sundance_Kid Posted on 16/1 10:05
re: Great another stealth tax

BoroGrecian do they pay for their heat, electricity, running water, telephone?

Thats already a lot better than what others have.

I know students who cant pay for a TV licence so they dont bother with a TV, so why should prisoners have one?

Chutney Posted on 16/1 10:13
re: Great another stealth tax

Yeah, that'll be fine.

At least moxzin was capable of disseminating the information appearing on a thread, even if he did choose to misinterpret or ignore it. You're just making yourself look like an idiot.

The_Commisar Posted on 16/1 10:16
re: Great another stealth tax

am I right in thinking the the home office, whilst paying out compensation to someone who was in in prison illegaly (mis-carriage of justice) cherged them for food and accomodation ?

Lets get used to it, this is Blair and his cronies playing to the socialist gallery. It makes the Dail Mail readers sit up and say "appauling, outrageous"
Which is just what they want

Sundance_Kid Posted on 16/1 10:26
re: Great another stealth tax

There you go with the insults again, at least LJ managed to pull himself away from that losing tactic for a while.

Your making yourself look desperate.

I fail to see how Im proved wrong when under your way prison populations are rising.
Using your theory unless Britians social problems are solved within the next 10 years the prison service is undermined.

Its unlikly.

--- Post edited by Sundance_Kid on 16/1 10:29 ---

--- Post edited by Sundance_Kid on 16/1 10:33 ---

Chutney Posted on 16/1 10:32
re: Great another stealth tax

Ner ner ner nerrrr ner.

You've become an irrelevance and your arguments have become so fragmented, self-defeating and childish I'd say this was now over.

Goodbye, try and enter your next debate with a bit of experience and empathy eh?

Sundance_Kid Posted on 16/1 10:37
re: Great another stealth tax

Chutney its hard to say the same about you since youve hardly put in any good points.
All of your posts bar one consist of 1-2 sentences which tend to be insults.

In other words, fcuk off.

leap_day_2004 Posted on 16/1 10:48
re: Great another stealth tax

Maybe they need to make less sentences custodial and start to send criminals to peoples houses to live like littlejimmy who can probably turn them into a good person.

j_orourke Posted on 16/1 11:12
re: Great another stealth tax

How the eff is this a stealth tax, if you don't do wrong (or get caught) then you pay nowt!

littlejimmy Posted on 16/1 14:55
re: Great another stealth tax

That's right, because I must be a social worker or something, cos I'm liberal. What's your alternative to trying to rehabilitate? Hang them all, I suppose. See, I can play with extremes too.

Atoning_Unifex Posted on 16/1 16:57
re: Great another stealth tax

SK: Looking at both sides of the argument. You don't like my suggestion because you don't believe it's achievable in the next ten years. Fair enough. But what makes you think your theory of making prison conditions worse will work? If the death penalty doesn't work in deterring people from serious crime in the US, why should making conditions worse make any difference?

I'm just trying to understand why you're so adamant that this is the best solution.

Sundance_Kid Posted on 16/1 17:02
re: Great another stealth tax

because it has in the past under similar circumstances.

The workhouse system being the prime example.

Ill dig out my notes later to prove it if I must.

Atoning_Unifex Posted on 16/1 17:03
re: Great another stealth tax

In the past? Are you talking about the 1800s again?

Sundance_Kid Posted on 16/1 17:08
re: Great another stealth tax

Yes but why should that have any bearing?

Humans have been fighting since the times of the romans (before birth of Christ). We know its wrong, we know what it involves yet we still do it.

Atoning_Unifex Posted on 16/1 17:15
re: Great another stealth tax

I'm sorry but you just can't take a theory drawn up 2 centuries ago and apply it to today's society. When you can come back with evidence that it works in this century I'll listen with interest.

And please don't say a murder is still a murder, or robbery is still robbery. Today's level of organised crime and current drug addiction problems don't bear any resemblence to that of the 18th century.

ridsdale Posted on 16/1 20:55
re: Great another stealth tax

Yarm_legend is right, the middle classes suffer more when they
commit a crime. They lose their reputation, something the poor
do not have to lose.

Their wives have to put up with finger pointing in the shops, their children have to suffer taunts;
"Was that your dad caught kerb crawling Jenkings?"

To 'tax' them with higher fines without benefit would be unfair.

This is my solution. A tiered fine system. Let's say one of Legends mates got caught pissing in an alley.
They could pay the standard fine and be named and shamed in the Gazette.
Like a poor person.

Or they could pay an enhanced fine, get a criminal record but not
be reported in the papers. Or, they could pay a luxury fine, which means no criminal record and bugger all embarassing
in the Gazette.

And if these fines were made a tax deductable benefit, this would
boost our enterprise economy.

Unlike the poor, the middle classes have quite enough debt to
contend with.

Yarm_Legend Posted on 16/1 21:00
re: Great another stealth tax



Up the middle classes

br14 Posted on 16/1 21:38
re: Great another stealth tax

Nothing really changes. The poor think the rich should pay, that is until they get some cash then their ideas change. The rich want to hold onto what they can and stuff the rest.

The current government is the biggest load or liars and cheats since governments were invented (and thats saying something). They have a clear policy of raising revenues by "stealth".

Probably have focus groups out there calculating to the nth degree how much they can hit people before they scream. I reckon they're getting close...