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Pauluka Posted on 17/2 9:42
Working class or Middle class?

How do you determine the difference?

Is it your job?
How much you earn?
The house you live in?
The people you know?
The places you go?

Just what determines the difference?

I would class myself as a typical working class person. But yes I earn decent money and live in a nice area. I do socialise with some rogues mind

I also think Buddy is Middle Class as he called a rubber an Eraser

Anyone?

--- Post edited by Pauluka on 17/2 9:42 ---

boroboy75 Posted on 17/2 9:53
re: Working class or Middle class?

Tomato sauce - Working class
Ketchup - Middle Class

mickbrown Posted on 17/2 9:54
re: Working class or Middle class?

Back yard - working class
Back garden - middle class

Borobarmy Posted on 17/2 9:55
re: Working class or Middle class?

pi ss in the shower - WC

step out - MC

Pauluka Posted on 17/2 9:55
re: Working class or Middle class?

Shag - Working Class
Make Love - Middle Class

Pauluka Posted on 17/2 9:57
re: Working class or Middle class?

Working Class.......

Breakfast
Dinner
Tea

Middle Class........

Breakfast
Lunch
Dinner

smoggieinmanc Posted on 17/2 9:57
re: Working class or Middle class?

Pardon - Middle Class

Yer wot - Working Class

--- Post edited by smoggieinmanc on 17/2 9:58 ---

boroboy75 Posted on 17/2 9:58
re: Working class or Middle class?

Working Class - Comprehensive school
Middle Class - Public School

grantus Posted on 17/2 9:59
re: Working class or Middle class?

Am i not right in thinking that the classes have been changing. I certainly come from a working class background, but have a lot of the things below that could sit in middle class. I dont know where i sit anymore.

can a person and/or generations change classes? If so, how far and how many times?

burst_appendix Posted on 17/2 9:59
re: Working class or Middle class?

ask ridsdale - he's the one obsessed by class.

grantus Posted on 17/2 10:00
re: Working class or Middle class?

mutter - working class
poopoo - middle class

scraps - working class
fish goujons - middle class

--- Post edited by grantus on 17/2 10:01 ---

Pauluka Posted on 17/2 10:00
re: Working class or Middle class?

Working Class - Tesco's, Morrisons etc
Middle Class - Waitrose and Marks and Spencers

sasboro Posted on 17/2 10:01
re: Working class or Middle class?

i would say that there are some popele who were working class as kids but are now middle class. Builders for example with a small business.

Surely anyone is middle class if you have a nice 4 bed detached house, 2 cars (1 an x5 type thing), pc's,mobiles,sky tv,go on a couple of holidays a year and are in the higher tax bracket.

I would say the working class size has decreased over the years. with the decrease in labour intensive jobs

TwoTribes Posted on 17/2 10:01
re: Working class or Middle class?

Working Class.......Boro supporter
Middle Class.........Chelsea supporter

hehehe

Pauluka Posted on 17/2 10:04
re: Working class or Middle class?

I always thought Middle Class was Doctors (or people with similar stature in the community)

The house thing is TOTAL bolloxs. I have a 5 bed detached, yet I get matted in crap due to the job I do.

I'm sure it's to do with your background etc.

Gibsons_chequebook Posted on 17/2 10:04
re: Working class or Middle class?

Well according to some of the suggestions on this board, I am a sort of 'class hybrid' sub species!

Isnt it more about a state of mind and behavioural patterns rather than material possesions and/or wealth?

e.g, if I won the jackpot on the lottery tomorrow, I wouldnt be catapulted into the upper class, Id just be rich.

Pauluka Posted on 17/2 10:05
re: Working class or Middle class?

Gibsons_chequebook

Totally agreed

red_rebel Posted on 17/2 10:09
re: Working class or Middle class?

I am working class. Almost everyone I know is working class, even those who who would pretend they have been promoted to middle class.

There is a cultural dimension but class is determined mainly by your relationship to the means of production.

And even if you wear a suit you are still a wage slave.

Workers by hand or brain are still just disposable cogs in the capitalist machine. They are employed for their labour and it is a simple transaction. They have no stake in or control over the production process or in the policy decisions of the company.

Workers employment relations are still fundementally the same as a century ago, although it is now disguised by rubber plants in the office, share-save schemes and people going home in the suburbs in company cars to eat polenta and rocket salad.

We have whole layers in society now who may believe they have 'become' middle class because they have the house and car and holidays etc. However that is just consumption. It is part of a game that is rigged against you.

At the end of the day these people can still be fired and suddenly be thrown back on the scrapheap.

Very few of these have investments or property to live off.

Face it, all you wimpy 'middle class' pen pushers are just one multi-national decision makers whim away from being revealed as hairyarsed proletarian you really are.

Pauluka Posted on 17/2 10:11
re: Working class or Middle class?

***Round of Applause***

sasboro Posted on 17/2 10:12
re: Working class or Middle class?

sorry pissed out the people who have plasma tv's are middle class

Pauluka Posted on 17/2 10:13
re: Working class or Middle class?

nice one sas

Gambling paid for that though!

Gibsons_chequebook Posted on 17/2 10:14
re: Working class or Middle class?

Im not sure what 'working class' is these days?? It used to (partly) be defined as someone who had no education didnt it? But everyone these days has a formal education. The class boundaries obviously have changed -

but are they still relevant in todays society? Im not sure that they are.

grantus Posted on 17/2 10:14
re: Working class or Middle class?

i think that helped red rebel. So one would need to be finincially secure and independent in your eyes, to be middle class. Not that i think its something to aspire to.

But as another poster mentioned surely that only makes you rich, doesn't it?

Pauluka Posted on 17/2 10:17
re: Working class or Middle class?

Most Middle Class people i've come across seem to have fake 'posh' accents. This would probably just make them wannabe's. This alone makes the middle class 'race' PATHETIC!

foomanboro Posted on 17/2 10:19
re: Working class or Middle class?

Is it not true there is more discrimination of the middle-classes by the working classes?

Not that i believe in the whole class system but i notice it tends to people with a chip on their shoulder that always seem to make big deal about whether someone is working or middle class.

Don't we discriminate each other enough on other grounds without adding something as trivial as this to the list?

sasboro Posted on 17/2 10:21
re: Working class or Middle class?

then there are the ones with lots of designer clothes and have accounts with bookies

then theones where the daddy buys them a car or put a big deposit on a hoiuse for the son or daughter

--- Post edited by sasboro on 17/2 10:22 ---

Pauluka Posted on 17/2 10:23
re: Working class or Middle class?

Yeah you're probably right. But when you see them (as I do in London) turning their nose up at you......

It fcuking grips me!!

Pauluka Posted on 17/2 10:24
re: Working class or Middle class?

sas, are you trying to say i'm Middle Class? I'm trying to read between the lines, and I think you are, aren't you?

Pauluka Posted on 17/2 10:24
re: Working class or Middle class?


[bloody double post]

--- Post edited by Pauluka on 17/2 10:24 ---

green_beret20 Posted on 17/2 10:27
re: Working class or Middle class?

I thought it depended largely on your house.

Working class depends on council housing.
Middle class can afford to buy better.

sasboro Posted on 17/2 10:28
re: Working class or Middle class?

haha!

I just think generally there's a lot of working class people that have the lifestyle(sp) that the middle class had 10-20 years ago.

i would class someone who is now generally working class who cant afford many things and lives ina cheap house and cant afford a newish car or many holidays

red_rebel Posted on 17/2 10:30
re: Working class or Middle class?

To be elevated from the working class you must a) own or control your means of production, or b) be able to live on the profit of other people's labour, or c) own significant property and investments.

Most people in a) are small businesses. Builders, decorators, plumbers... and most would still consider themselves working class culturally and because they don't earn fortunes.

b) and c) factory or shop owners and those with big City portfolios are wghat we think of as classic capitalists and there are not many of those in Teesside. Intertestingly those that are -like Gibbo and Steve Cochrane - are mainly from self made backgrounds rather than inherited capital.


There are of course many grey areas in between thathave complex economic relationships.

The 'professions' for instance were always regarded as a financially independent 'middle-class' sector but increasingly accountancy and the law is being industrialised and collectivised in a few big monopoly companies.

grantus Posted on 17/2 10:32
re: Working class or Middle class?

But i am quite interested in the English class system and how we didn't export it out to the U.S.A. and australia for two. I think that those who still live to it or are affected by it are living in the past and will soon be be considered excentric relics

Pauluka Posted on 17/2 10:33
re: Working class or Middle class?

red rebel - Calm down, you might give yourself a hernia there fella

Amsterdam_Reds Posted on 17/2 10:35
re: Working class or Middle class?

The class system is soooo very British and designed by those often with wealth to keep the lower earners in their place.

Surely there are better ways of defining a person rather than a generalised concept based on income and status. Why do we need the cultural wet blanket of belonging to one set or another, can't we just be ourselves.

red_rebel Posted on 17/2 10:36
re: Working class or Middle class?

Grantus: everyone is affected by the class system wherever they agree with it or not.

Consider these issues: housing, education, health, pensions, crime, public transport, taxation. Do they not affect you?

Buggerlugs Posted on 17/2 10:49
re: Working class or Middle class?

What about me though Rebel. I come from a working class background and have a working class job but I buy "vine ripened tomatoes".

TwoTribes Posted on 17/2 10:51
re: Working class or Middle class?

Originally we had two classes, Upper class.....people who didn't need to work as a result of inheritance and we had lower class who did need to work. Enter new money, mill owners and bankers and the like who elevated themselves above the lower, or working class but couldn't however lay claim to upper class due to their parents being coalmen etc........hence the middle class was born.

dubai_ray Posted on 17/2 10:51
re: Working class or Middle class?

rebel my only concern this morning was would I be able to get a couple of pints and watch the match tonight but now I am totally despondant and realise that I am not a free man and even if I manage to achieve my only 2 wishes for today I am still only a very small cog (hopfully getting well oiled regularly) in the big wheel operated by the evil multinationals that pay the pittance I call a salary.

Buggerlugs Posted on 17/2 10:51
re: Working class or Middle class?

oops just read your post and you have answered it. I am an oik and proud of it.

T4Tomo Posted on 17/2 10:52
re: Working class or Middle class?

Pass on duff share tips - Middle class
Pass on duff tips for the gee gee's - working class

Pauluka Posted on 17/2 10:55
re: Working class or Middle class?

Expanding that one a little further

passing on duff tips for shares - Middle Class
passing on great winning tips for the horses on fmttm - working class

--- Post edited by Pauluka on 17/2 10:55 ---

red_rebel Posted on 17/2 10:57
re: Working class or Middle class?

Buggerlugs:

Your proletarian credentials have been noted. So have your dangerous bourgoise cultural tendencies. You can forget your 'sun ripened' tomatoes in the re-education camps comrade.

Ray:

Enjoy your beer and your few hours of freedom in front of the narcotic goggle box watching the new opium of the people mate. Tomorrow it is back to being a cog.

Pauluka Posted on 17/2 10:58
re: Working class or Middle class?

By you're one party animal red_rebel

red_rebel Posted on 17/2 10:59
re: Working class or Middle class?

Oh yes, I love a 'party'. How we laughed.

grantus Posted on 17/2 11:08
re: Working class or Middle class?

red rebel, i was talking in the context of the theory of class system. The issues that your on about will always affect people unless we become a utopian state one day. It is those who are class bound by thoughts that are disappearing, or at least the emphasis based on class i feel is disappearing.

At least in the working to middle class battle grounds.

young_boro Posted on 17/2 11:10
re: Working class or Middle class?

Amsterdam_Reds has got it spot on. Why feel the need to be labelled as either?
Surely if you're a decent person who contributes positively to society that's all that matters.
Rant over.

junk_yard_dog Posted on 17/2 11:12
re: Working class or Middle class?

look down on no-one, look up to no-one

red rebel: Brill keep up the fight comrade!

Amsterdam_Reds Posted on 17/2 11:12
re: Working class or Middle class?

red rebel,

Please explain the need for the British to be defined by a class system yet our European neighbours comparatively not.

There is a British cultural notion that one who earns more money is somehow superior than his counterpart, argubly those who believe in the class system or define themselves by it are perpetuating this myth.
it can be argued that this is especially true of those who define themselves as 'working class'. Often meaning acceptance of what they believe is a perceived wallowing place in society and that the status quo of their subservience must be maintained.

ridsdale Posted on 17/2 11:16
re: Working class or Middle class?

My quick answer;

If you do not look up to those with wealth and power and
do not look down on those with none.

dunf0rt Posted on 17/2 11:16
re: Working class or Middle class?

red_rebel,

Are you just another cog yourself then, or have you managed to find some way of earning money that fits in with your beliefs? I'm not having a go, just wondering how you balance the two things.

red_rebel Posted on 17/2 11:17
re: Working class or Middle class?

Grantus:
Absolutely. The decline of conscious working class politics in the past twenty years is massive.

Where are the uppity trade unionist and fiery radical students? Watching footy on four foot tellies thinking everything is rosy.

But the current situation wil change, There will be an upturn. And there are we few who will keep the torch until then.

--- Post edited by red_rebel on 17/2 11:18 ---

dubai_ray Posted on 17/2 11:20
re: Working class or Middle class?

red, I have decided to start oiling this cog early today in an effort to increase my productivity potential.Thanks for the advice mate.

green_beret20 Posted on 17/2 11:25
re: Working class or Middle class?

Red Rebel when will this current situation change?
Could you please tell me in advance so Ill be sure to go on holiday for a few weeks to to miss it.
Of all the regimes that have came and went on this world the one that has so far had the best record appears to be the one we are currently operating in. I like going abroad, earning a wage, driving a car, living a better quality of life.
No matter what excuse's you give (whether it was Stalins, Lenons faults) communism has fell on its ass.
Its an ideal which like so many simply fail when put into practice.

--- Post edited by green_beret20 on 17/2 11:26 ---

red_rebel Posted on 17/2 11:31
re: Working class or Middle class?

Dunfoort:

Yes I am a cog. A cog in a grey area. Academia is both a breeding ground for dissent and a way of reinforcing the establishment's cultural control. I wield a double edged sword.

Amsterdam:

I am not aware of any classless states in Europe.

In Britain our class system is the most visible as it is the longest established. Most of Europe have had the stupid trappings (men in wigs, the ariistocracy, a head or state who is head of church etc) swept away by wars and revolutions.

But they still have class. They still have massive conglomerates and stock exchanges running the economy. They still have the inherited super rich, privately educated elites who dominate politics and the law.

And they still have the urban proletariat. Some of them still have a well organised peasantry too. And they still have class politics. France and Italy have very militant working classes and strong syndicalist trade unions. Germany has a well organised union movement that is just creaking into action.

Capitalism is a global phenonomen. So are its economic relations.

Just because much of Europe is superficially more modern and rational (and that is a good thing) it does not mean its versions of capitalism are built on different foundations.

sasboro Posted on 17/2 11:32
re: Working class or Middle class?

maybe many on here are in the grey area of upper working class/lower middleclass with plenty of disposable income and own their own house and 2 nice cars on the drive

red_rebel Posted on 17/2 11:44
re: Working class or Middle class?

Green beret:

I am not nostradamus. But I am a historian. And the clear lesson of history is that NO economic system lasts for ever. Even the ones that have completely dominated their world.

The Greek and Roman slave economies, the medieval trading empires, The Spanish, French and British Empires all fell. Feudalism was overthrown by mercantile capital, which was superceded by investment capital, which was replaced by Imperialism then stateless corporate globalisation.

That will change too. Unless you uniquely among the scholars have found a formula to somehow halt the forces of history.

Capitalism will collapse to be replaced by another system based on new methods of prodcution and new forms of economic organisation. Change is inevitable.

The problem is that future forms of organisation are not. The next change may not be socialism. It could easily swing the other way. All we (my lads) can do is organise and agitate to make sure that at the moment of crisis the forces of reason win the day.

--- Post edited by red_rebel on 17/2 11:47 ---

Q8_Red Posted on 17/2 11:51
re: dubai_ray...watching the match..

....watching the match....On which channel?

PapaJohn Posted on 17/2 11:53
re: Working class or Middle class?

Hows this for a one definition

"whats the state/world/country going to do for me" - working class

"what am I going to do for the state/world/country" - middle class

Its deffo not about money , its a state of mind imo

red_rebel Posted on 17/2 11:58
re: Working class or Middle class?

Yes but come a war who is it that lines up to give something for the country then?

Amsterdam_Reds Posted on 17/2 11:58
re: Working class or Middle class?

red rebel,

where I mostly agree with your posts (not in a brown nose kinda way as morti and Keith_A are the true gods), I think you are wrong to a degree on class distinction in mainland Europe and Germany in particular.

The trade unions have always been strong in post-war Germany, they work very much in co-operation with management however to create a common good for the organisation. Sure within the organisation some earn more than others, this is purely down to ability and not the silver spoon elite university appointments we see in the UK, which breeds and remains subservient to a fat cat mentality.

Foe example much of the bureaucracy in Germany...(my god ask the missus, who had to visit 10 different buildings and offices, just to 'officially' leave the country)is designed to ensure everyone is equal in society and that no-one has special privliges through wealth or status. Fedralism (despite it's bureaucratic faults) is thus designed to eradicate the state sponsored class system perception have in the UK. Again therefore I return to the theme that 'working class' is just an umbrella term for those too who believe in being inferior through comparative financial incapability.

--- Post edited by Amsterdam_Reds on 17/2 12:00 ---

PapaJohn Posted on 17/2 12:00
re: Working class or Middle class?

a soldier for me is middle class - big contibution to society same as a nurse and same a small business man who employs 10 people.

red_rebel Posted on 17/2 12:04
re: Working class or Middle class?

A Reds:

There is much to commend in the social democracies of Northern Europe. We in Britain have much to learn about a mature inclusive democracy and meritocracy I grant you that.

But I must have missed the bit where they abolished capitalism and IG Farben, Krupps and BMW were taken under workers control.

It is true that during the boom years unions did well from German capitalism. But crunch time is coming there with the bosses preparing to claw much of it back. We will see then whether there is still class conflict in Germany.

Amsterdam_Reds Posted on 17/2 12:18
re: Working class or Middle class?

RR, I take your points, however I am alluding to the perception of class and the differences between northern Europe and the UK.

One of the top selling academic books in Germany and Holland is 'British Society Since 1945' by Arthur Marwick. This is where many first learn what this alien concept of a class system actually is.

Pauluka Posted on 17/2 13:06
re: Working class or Middle class?

Bloody hell I only asked a straight forward question!

And what did I get? I got bloody snowed under in Politics that's what

It will take me years to get through this lot!

The_DiasBoro Posted on 17/2 13:21
re: Working class or Middle class?

Forget the Tesco/Waitrose thing, Pauluka, that's all wrong.

If you eat your dinner/lunch holding your knife like a pen, you are W/C no matter what you think you are. If you don't, you might simply be an W/C who knows this one, so a further test is needed.
If you greet your mate with a handshake, probably middle class.
If you are with your girlfriend and he kisses her on the cheek, you are middle class if you don't react in any way.

Decored Posted on 17/2 13:27
re: Working class or Middle class?

"I would class myself as a typical working class person"

Dillusions of Grandeur 'luka

Linny_Boy Posted on 17/2 13:29
re: Working class or Middle class?

Working class and always will be. I joined a trade union very recently for the first time in my life, even though my company doesn't recognise them. Most of the apparent "new" middle class are working class who have forgotten or want to forget what they are. Red_rebels first post is pretty spot on.
Get's me how "class" revolutions usually seemed to be spawned from the middle classes, lawyers, doctors, intelligensia and not the proletariat masses. I don't think it's particularly true anymore that the masses haven't the means or capability to mobilise themselves, they just can't be arsed switching off MTV and baulk at the thought of burning McDonalds and wasting all that McFlurry.
Sadly each revolution created it's own party elite and underdogs - Vietnam nearly got it right but has now sadly seems to have sold out as well. Money does breed money (REAL money I mean)
The tried and tested formula of revolution doesn't seem to work (unfortunately) in the long run - what's the answer? I wish I knew. The class system in this country is absurd and perverse. As one who once swore an oath of alleigance to the Sovereign, I would have all Her kith and kin exiled or publically woggied.
"He who serves a revolution, ploughs the sea" - Simon Bolivar.

--- Post edited by Linny_Boy on 17/2 13:31 ---

Pauluka Posted on 17/2 13:39
re: Working class or Middle class?

fcuk off Deco you git. I will be having words with you!

boroboy75 Posted on 17/2 13:43
re: Working class or Middle class?

Toilet - Working Class
Lavatory - Middle Class

burst_appendix Posted on 17/2 13:57
re: Working class or Middle class?

working class = if you're going to the supermarket you knock on your neighbour's door and ask them if they want anything getting

Azedarac Posted on 17/2 14:02
re: Working class or Middle class?

One question solves this one. Have you ever shouted "Come on, Tim"?

sasboro Posted on 17/2 14:05
re: Working class or Middle class?

working class- like to smell own farts
middle class - blame it on the dog

zaphod Posted on 17/2 14:06
re: Working class or Middle class?

You are what you think you are. Class is in the mind.

What matters is whether you're comfortable with your lot. All this class stuff creates unnecessary divisions and hostilities. 95% plus of people work for their living: some earn more than others; some get dirty, some stay clean; some use their muscle, some don't. That's it

boroboyinbath Posted on 17/2 14:06
re: Working class or Middle class?

I am and so are most on here working people, if we don't work we have no money.

We have varying levels of income, varying taxation burdens etc.. etc..

It is predominance of certain people to maintain a working class - midle class them and us...

As some have said it just doesn't exist any more.... I have lived in a council house but now I have 2 cars a detached house, 40% tax, mebership of the golf club etc etc....I am still a working person. The office of national statistics has me down as middle class.....

There are no classes

Ironicly the bottom of the pile is the non - working classes we all know the types I'm on about !

raggy Posted on 17/2 14:11
re: Working class or Middle class?

" To class me is to negate me"

The whole definitions of class has changed in this country. What is very worrying is the emergence of the underclass, those who have no desire to work and follow the accepted norms of society. AKA Scum

Pauluka Posted on 17/2 14:14
re: Working class or Middle class?

Working class - Cooks his own tea
Middle class - Gets the butler to do it

jimmythewondercat Posted on 17/2 14:15
re: Working class or Middle class?

It is entirely a state of mind.

People perceive others based on their own prejudices and experiences of life. What is common to one is classy to another.

Class is something people should hope to have, not try to categorise.

Do what you want and leave others to do things there way.

I am a member of Redcar Workies and Soho House in London. I am a qualified professional but went to local comp. Am happier on a night out in Redcar than am most of the time when in West End, but like a night in a good restaurant! Spent my first years in a council house in Berwick Hills but folks now live in Redcar East. How does that categorise me?

Answer - it doesn't - I take people for what they are and what they have to contribute to things. Anyone who judges others purely by what they have/do for a living is missing a big point in life.

Mind you, it is hard to beat Friday night men only bingo at Redcar Workies! Good beer at 1.50 and no media luvvies!

Scrote Posted on 17/2 14:24
re: Working class or Middle class?

wrt working class shaking hands with their mates - did you know you are only ever supposed to shake someones hand the first time you meet them - after that you have been formally introduced and accept that you are not going to stab each other so shaking hands is no longer necessary

therefore shaking eachs others hands all the time shows a lack of etiquette which screams WORKING CLASS (probably)

although i think it comes down to shaving myself

more than once a week = middle class
once a week or less = working class
once a year or less = fischer

borobuddah Posted on 17/2 14:33
re: Working class or Middle class?

Marx defined the working class as those who sold their labour in the market place, ie not those who were landowners or owned the means of production.

red_rebel Posted on 17/2 15:03
re: Working class or Middle class?

Linny Boy:

"Get's me how "class" revolutions usually seemed to be spawned from the middle classes, lawyers, doctors, intelligensia and not the proletariat masses."

This is of course the big irony in Marxist class politics but it is fairly easily explained.

The middle class sit uncomfortably between the powerful rich and well organised working class get squeezed.

When an economy is in crisis the rich are rarely effected while the working class know they are at the bottom of the shitheap and expect to be shafted plus they have organisations like the trade unions to social democratic parties to defend them.

But it is middle management, clerical, municipal white collar and the lower levels of the 'professions' who stand to lose most in wages and status. In times of crisis it is these people who become politicised and join parties of both the left and right.

I think they have a foot in either camp (really working class but aspire to and support the ruling class) so when the crunch comes they can jump either way.


BTW, good on you joining your union comrade. Now you can get all kinds of discounts on financial services.

Pauluka Posted on 17/2 15:07
re: Working class or Middle class?

red_rebel, are you middle class by any chance?

Back_Door_Barry Posted on 17/2 15:10
re: Working class or Middle class?

No surprise that red_rebel "Works" in academia. It`s the only place you can stay if you are a "Student Grant" type who never grew up. No one out in the real world of work would have you. Thats why most student radicals change their spots as soon as they get a job and begin to understand what then real world is all about.

Right on comrade! Power To the people! Freedom for Linthorpe!

NICKODENSEKIDDO Posted on 17/2 15:23
re: Working class or Middle class?

working class = house number (or maybe someting rusting and half hanging off)

middle class = house name (something pretentious like Eagle's Fell or Brooke View)

underclass = skip serial number

sasboro Posted on 17/2 15:27
re: Working class or Middle class?

just cos you cling onto your 1970's teesside roots doesnt mean you can still class yourself as working class

red_rebel Posted on 17/2 15:31
re: Working class or Middle class?

Barry: I have done plenty of real work over the years. I just fancied leather patches on my jacket elbows and the chance to sit around all reading the Guardian for a while surrounded by impressionable and pretty 18 year old posh girls .

Pauluka Posted on 17/2 15:46
re: Working class or Middle class?

Can't be doing with the middle class citizen me like. I'm not one for being looked down on.

But hey each to their own and all that

StevieT Posted on 17/2 15:46
re: Working class or Middle class?

I'm a working class zero.

Or hero.

One of the two.

Which is something to be.

Linny_Boy Posted on 17/2 16:44
re: Working class or Middle class?

red-rebel - point taken about the class irony thing for Marxist politics. I suppose thats why the middle classes/intelligensia are scorned by the lower working class and looked down upon by the upper class - they can choose their political persuasion as best suits their own selfish interests, others have no choice.
I was thinking of some of the main players in some of the big revolutions as being ironically middle class, however Lenin was brutalised in his youth by the state, Trotsky and Rosa Luxembourg were Jewish Pogrom victims, so probably only Stalin was the true opportunist who waited to see the sway before joining the ship.

nice bit about the union - don't believe they have any power really, but might ruffle a few management feathers as the phrase commonly used here is "we don't need a union here as our relationship is sooo good that we just don't need one" ok, give me a fair pay rise.

Kyrareed Posted on 17/2 17:03
re: Working class or Middle class?

Not such a thing as a the traditional class sytem any more

Now its

a) the toffs
b) the rest of us (Doctors, Lawyers, Engineers, Hairdressers etc)
c) the pondlife (no intention of getting a "LEGAL" job, druggies etc etc)

Pauluka Posted on 17/2 20:06
re: Working class or Middle class?

"(Doctors, Lawyers, Engineers, Hairdressers etc)"

I would of thought Hairdressers are pondlife thus not worthy of being with the others

red_rebel Posted on 22/2 13:02
re: Working class or Middle class?

hoof

blotonthelandscape Posted on 22/2 13:08
re: Working class or Middle class?

100% Working class over here, based on Red's initial theory.

Sadly I happen to fit into Sas's generalisation, including the plasma.

red_rebel Posted on 22/2 13:13
re: Working class or Middle class?

Blot: Conspicuous consumption has always marked out the "respectable working class". A century ago it would have been a piano in the parlour.

OhWell Posted on 22/2 13:14
re: Working class or Middle class?

"surrounded by impressionable and pretty 18 year old posh girls ."

Where do I get my application form?

blotonthelandscape Posted on 22/2 13:21
re: Working class or Middle class?

Red my working classness comes out in my inability to save. Theres no fun in a bank statement thats not got a touch of red.

speckyget Posted on 22/2 13:22
re: Working class or Middle class?

Middle class - get out of bath to fart.

Upper class - stay in bath to shyt.

Working class - bath?

rkangel Posted on 22/2 13:26
re: Working class or Middle class?

Your name on the building... upper class
Your name on the office door... middle class
Your name on your shirt......

The_Commisar Posted on 22/2 13:28
re: Working class or Middle class?

RR
I think your talking about the petit bougosie (sorry, spelling) when you refer to
"The middle class sit uncomfortably between the powerful rich and well organised working class get squeezed. "
And you assume (or Marx does in your behalf) that there will be an economic crisis, however, you did mention the different types of economic model in use at various times, alluding to the various divisions in history that Marx used. These did not fall, or collapse, they evolved.

Rome and Greece did not fall, the institutions they created changed survived and evolved. The roman empire took a step to the left and became the catholic church, feudalism moved away when society was suffienctly organised to allow taxation to take place, in some parts of the world it was alwats sufficently organised so that taxation under pinned the state.
Marxist analysis is (from memory) based on the view that that there will be a crisis of capitalism, that all things revolve around the realtionship to capital and that impending crisis.

The "class system" has not come into being because of a concious wish to keep one group down, it exists because that happens to be a good way of society organising itself so that it works (a badly written attempt at Weberian thinking).

_IF_ Marxism worked then societies would adopt it and it would prosper. It does not work, free societies do not wish to adopt Marxist methods of organising.

Class is a handy label used by certain parties to make socio economic analysis simple and justify their own objectives.

Kilburn Posted on 22/2 13:32
re: Working class or Middle class?

Rebel's view on what makes someone middle or working class is closest to how I see things.

It is all about the need to work for others to support yourself, regardless of whether you are a care-worker on 10K or city-boy on 1M . Hence 'working class'.

If you have a boss, you are working class.

Pauluka Posted on 22/2 13:34
re: Working class or Middle class?

Today I feel proud, that was 4th (I think) 100 post!!

And I didn't even hoof it. Oh the joy

The_Commisar Posted on 22/2 13:42
re: Working class or Middle class?

^^^^^^
Prole !

Pauluka Posted on 22/2 13:44
re: Working class or Middle class?

What the F~~K is a Prole?

That just shows I'm Working Class, you sir are Middle Class for coming up with a word I'd never heard before

The_Commisar Posted on 22/2 13:50
re: Working class or Middle class?

Prole, a member of the proletariat

Pauluka Posted on 22/2 13:52
re: Working class or Middle class?

If I haven't heard of a Prole I certainly wouldn't of heard of proletariat. Care to expand?

I must of lived/living a sheltered life

Lucky_Alf Posted on 22/2 13:53
re: Working class or Middle class?

"If you have a boss, you are working class"

Everyone has a boss.

The_Commisar Posted on 22/2 13:58
re: Working class or Middle class?

Lets see if I can do this from memory

Proletariat, the class that derives it's income from labour
Bougoisie, the class that derives it's income from the deployment of capital

So -
working class = prole
Upper class = bougoisie

You could also have a Pleb and a Pat
Plebian - roman working class
Patrician - roman upper class

I'm sure some one will have called you "an effin pleb" at some time ????

(I will now have a learn a new bit of info and in true Homer mode, that new stuff will push out the old stuff)

Pauluka Posted on 22/2 14:00
re: Working class or Middle class?

Ah I see, you are right though, I am a Prole

Lucky_Alf Posted on 22/2 14:01
re: Working class or Middle class?

God help the labourer who saves up his money and starts to earn interest off it.

Jase_rw Posted on 22/2 14:06
re: Working class or Middle class?

Back in the 1800s, the Middle Class were the industrialists and mill owners etc. They made fortunes and lived well at the expense of the working class labour.

The working class lived in poor, over-crowded houses, largely provided by the industrialists.

The upper classes lived in large estates of inherited money and had no desire to 'earn' anymore in such enterprises.

Nowerdays, the upper classes are virtually extinct (and usually pot-less, appearing on quirky TV shows behaving like tw_ats).

A great deal of the working classes now enjoy a far more comfortable existance than their counterparts a century ago.

I suppose technically the middle-class must be the likes of Steve Gibson who have made great sums of money and provide employment for working class people (lorry drivers in this case). Modern health and safety and other laws ensure they (we) aren't treaded as loosely as 100 years ago!

What worries me is the 'under class' that seems to be developing. The chavs and other unemployable drop-outs that seem to have little desire to take any part in society, economic or otherwise. These are what we should be turning our attention to before we have societies like some part of the USA and we all have to live behind wire fences and guard dogs.

BoroTommo Posted on 22/2 14:23
re: Working class or Middle class?

Class no longer exists. There are those who "work" for what they have (whether excessive or barely adequate) and those who become "entitled to" certain things, due to inheritance or "jobs for the boys".
Either way, I have a singular ambition, and that is to provide adequately (at least) for my family, and hopefully provide them (through hard work) opportunities that their forefathers never had. This, I would consider, is not an aspiration to climb the class ladder, just a natural human ambition to make the lives of our offspring mildly or greatly more rewarding and therein organically better for their offspring.

This, in my mind, is a capitalist vision, and one I stay true to day by day. It does not make me middle class, just simply gifts a law to my children, "the harder you work, the better life is".

graemeboro Posted on 22/2 14:23
re: Working class or Middle class?

Around the Boro a typical of example of each would be:
Nunthorpe - middle
South Bank/Grangetown - Working

Not many middle class places round the Boro though.

green_beret20 Posted on 22/2 14:55
re: Working class or Middle class?

Jase_rw we are moving towards a US style society but of the 1960s.

Labours policy of sendng fewer and fewer people to jail is the key to improve the justice service is utterly wrong.
This was tried in America in the 1960's, the result of which they had a worst criminal rate per population than they do today. They reveresed this policy and crime rates fell.

Our crime rate overtook the US in the late 90's and continues to rise.

--- Post edited by green_beret20 on 22/2 14:55 ---

whinneybanksaint Posted on 22/2 14:59
re: Working class or Middle class?

Wipe willy with tissue after a shag ;- middle class


Wipe cock on the curtains ;- working class

BoroTommo Posted on 22/2 15:00
re: Working class or Middle class?

What if the bloke you've just shagged isn't called Willy?

Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 22/2 15:08
re: Working class or Middle class?

It's all about the control of the means of production. I work for somebody else, I'm working class. The guy/shareholders (not the bit part gamblers on the shares) own the means of production and have a great say in how my life is organised. They are middle class. Some management can be brought into that category but not all, it's not black and white. The vast majority of the nation is working class, though a sizeable portion would be upset about the label.

sasboro Posted on 22/2 15:09
re: Working class or Middle class?

so does that mean the likes of gibson,john hall,freddie shepard,george reynolds are all middle class?

parmo_army Posted on 22/2 15:13
re: Working class or Middle class?

errrrr, what's going on?

Kilburn Posted on 22/2 15:15
re: Working class or Middle class?

"Labours policy of sendng fewer and fewer people to jail."

If only.

Would that be the policy that has seen the UK prison population rise steadily from 45,000 in 1993, the year before Labour came into power, to 75,000 in 2005?

At the same time, levels of recorded crime have stayed pretty steady.

JLinardi Posted on 22/2 15:28
re: Working class or Middle class?

Werkin class = working class
Working class = middle class

10 lambert = working class
20 bensons = middle class

having a dump = working class
putting paper round the toilet seat = middle class

going to your m8s house and just walking in = working class
still knocking even though you have a spare key = middle class

Spludger Posted on 22/2 15:33
re: Working class or Middle class?

If your name is Leonard or William then it will be shortened to

Working Class-Lenny/Bill
Middle Class-Leo/Wills

Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 22/2 15:33
re: Working class or Middle class?

It does Sas.

JLinardi Posted on 22/2 15:34
re: Working class or Middle class?

ooo yea

thinking a halifax platinum card is a status symbol = working class

means_the_world Posted on 22/2 15:56
re: Working class or Middle class?

parmo - working class

parmo with chips - middle class

sasboro Posted on 22/2 16:04
re: Working class or Middle class?

'going out for a meal',' going out for tea' -working class
'going to a restaurant','going out for dinner' -middle class

JLinardi Posted on 22/2 16:43
re: Working class or Middle class?

Go out for a meal? FOOK OFF - Working class

On the phone to Boro pizzas - working class
On the phone to central park - middle class

north_stand Posted on 22/2 17:07
re: Working class or Middle class?

working class = visa
middle class = American Express

Leedsclive Posted on 22/2 17:12
re: Working class or Middle class?

High spirited rugger chaps - middle class
Lowlife football hooligan scum - working class

sw2boro Posted on 22/2 18:59
re: Working class or Middle class?

Britain's working class is the part of the world's middle class.

Just because the US and elsewhere doesn't think they have a class system doesn't mean they don't have one. Usually "Black" or "Urban" is shorthand for Working class, "White" or "suburban" for middle class.

And the lumpenproletariat has always been with us.

RedWurzel Posted on 22/2 19:17
re: Working class or Middle class?

There's alot of people who think they are (part) middle class, because they earn 25,000 - 30,000 a year.

To me middle class people send their kids to private school, they tend to be on committees and like to feel they have some influence over their environment. They tend to have professional jobs such as doctor, dentist, headteacher, hospital consultant, solicitor, accountant, business employing more than 10. They don't have regional accents. They went to University when only 10%-15% of people did.

I always thought myself as bright working class, going to a Polytechnic with other bright working class kids. The middle classes always required bright working class people to work hard, come up with bright ideas, and be able to mix with all types, to support them and stop them getting stale. Examples John Lennon, Nick Leeson types, but when you are one of them you never quite feel you belong anywhere as you lose your roots a bit, but you have to wait a generation to be accepted by those above or drop back down.