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Buddy Posted on 22/2 12:01
Good work Mayor Livingstone

Enough pandering I think

Link: No surrender to the Daily Mail

Capybara Posted on 22/2 12:02
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

Bet won with self.

Listened to the whole statement and it was strong stuff.

The_River Posted on 22/2 12:03
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

Storm in a tea-cup. What he said was ill-advised but wasn't racist. He's right to stick to his guns.

comfortable_shoes Posted on 22/2 12:05
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

Love him or hate him, at least unlike many other Politicians, he is consistant

RAZMOND_HWDR Posted on 22/2 12:06
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

Big Ron Atkinson might have a word or two to say about this.

Buddy Posted on 22/2 12:11
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

How much do you get paid to be a professional point-misser RAZ?

RAZMOND_HWDR Posted on 22/2 12:14
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

bad language is bad language.

I am sure if Big Ron had said the same thing whilst covering a match (before he got sacked), I am sure he'd have got sacked.

Ok for the mayor though, i guess.

FuntimeFrank Posted on 22/2 12:15
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

He should still apologise though no matter how much of a legitimate beef he has with the Mail group. Oh yeah he was more then happy to pick up cheque when he was restaurant critic for the Standard. At the end of the day you cant say that s**t about an ethnic group.

Buddy Posted on 22/2 12:16
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

No Frank, you can't. And he didn't.

--- Post edited by Buddy on 22/2 12:16 ---

scuzzmonster Posted on 22/2 12:16
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

The only question now is how long will it take before the Hon. Member for West Bridgford appears on this thread?

sasboro Posted on 22/2 12:17
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

In his job he should know better than to say that. He should resign!

FuntimeFrank Posted on 22/2 12:21
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

Am I missing something here Buddy? Did he not liken a jewish reporter to a Nazi concentration guard?

captain5 Posted on 22/2 12:27
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

He likened a particular guy whose main job has been to target 'Red Ken' for about the past twenty years and constantly harrass him to that role.

I think Ken should stick to his guns. Oh and I don't even like the guy, I certainly don't align myself with him, politically or otherwise.

silly_sod Posted on 22/2 12:28
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

Yes Frank he did liken a Jewish reporter to a concentration camp guard but that's not a comment about a particular ethnic group, that's a comment about a particular person and the way they are ignoring the morally repugnant parts of their job in pursuit of personal gain in much the same way that the SS men did.

I think it was an ill-advised comment but it's in no way a racist one.

The_River Posted on 22/2 12:28
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

But surely the point here is that he wasn't saying it about an "ethnic group".

He compared a reporter to a Nazi guard in that he was "only obeying orders". If he only said it because the guy was Jewish then that's racist, but I don't believe he did.

I believe that he was expressing his anger at the Mail Group, and would have made the same statement to a non-Jewish reporter. In which case it's not racist, just offensive. And I therefore don't think he needs to issue a "mea culpa" grovelling apology.

ColinBellEnd Posted on 22/2 12:32
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

In his way I think he has apologised to Jewish people who felt offended. What he wont do is apologise to the most appalling newspaper in the world. Quite right.

Azedarac Posted on 22/2 12:32
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

The media making a song and dance about this does nothing for the cause of tackling real racism.

Here's something to think about. If you're boss at work was black, and worked his staff very hard, would it be racist to say he was a slave driver?

captain5 Posted on 22/2 12:33
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

One of the first things I heard on the radio when I got back from Graz was about this and that a statement would be issued on Tuesday.

All the assorted hacks on the panel were very confident that Ken would retract what he'd said, 'having made his point'.

Thanks for that, expert panel.

foomanboro Posted on 22/2 12:34
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

Why couldn't he apologise to the jewish community for his ill-advised wording but still slag of the daily mail?

I think it would have been the best course of action for him.

Sparky_Lightbourne Posted on 22/2 12:35
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

He didn't liken the jewish reptorter to a concentration camp guard, he likened his beheviour to that of a concentration camp guard. I can't find the transcript anywhere but I believe that he made the assertion after the reporter had used the 'only doing his job guv, following orders' response when questioned why he was persisting in harrassing Livingstone. Echoing the following orders response used by the gaurds when questioned why the did what they did

Therefore I would suggest that the fact that he was jewish should have nothing to do with it. Further given the history of associated press you wonder why a jewish reporter works for them. Particularly one who is so sensitive to history.

RAZMOND_HWDR Posted on 22/2 12:35
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

he needs to have another look at his simile (regards).

--- Post edited by RAZMOND_HWDR on 22/2 12:58 ---

FuntimeFrank Posted on 22/2 12:35
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

Point taken, an apology should still be made though. He says if he apologised he wouldnt mean it. So i take it that he still believes a Jewish reporter is like a Nazi guard. There are so many different ways he could have put his point. Imagine if some one had liked a Muslim reporter to an Israeli or American soldier, the s**t would hit the fan. Trevor Phillips and the CEO would be up in arms. Where are they now, certainly not demanding an investigation ala Kilroy Silk.

It might not have been a direct insult but an apology should still be issued.

FuntimeFrank Posted on 22/2 12:38
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

Yeah but even after the reporter said something along the lines of "i'm jewish and I take offense at that" he still continued along the same point. For someone who is in such a high ranking position he should know better unless the drink and his political leanings got the better of him?!?

Kiwi_In_Disguise Posted on 22/2 12:41
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

To Frank,
Yes the man is Jewish, that does not get him off the hook for been a t * * t.
We all know, or should know how big-a-t * * t s the press are.
Yes what the mayor said was stupid, but that so called journalist deserved everything he got and if it was me in the shoes’ of red ken, I would have beaten the living s * * t out of the little c * * t with his own recorder.

bobstermarley Posted on 22/2 12:42
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

Go Ken.

The Mail group have been stirring this so called controversy up in order to undermine Ken Livingstone, almost as if they're trying to say "you're not so right on now, are you Ken, look you've offended one of our 'minority' reporters".

He's absolutely right - The Mail is a despicable, reactionary rag, always the first in the queue to stir up sensationalist 'news' about minority groups.

I think Ken's handled this perfectly and I'm pleased that he's had the courage of his convictions to bring the focus of this debate back the Mail's journalistic hypocrisy, which is decades old.

FuntimeFrank Posted on 22/2 12:44
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

Oh right then i get it! If we are pi**ed off with someone we should start making offensive comments about there religeous/cultural history. Even if we know it offends them.

Great idea!!

Sez_Les_Boro Posted on 22/2 12:44
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

The tape

The Standard yesterday published a transcript of taped exchanges between the mayor and its reporter:

Oliver Finegold Mr Livingstone, Evening Standard. How did tonight go?

Ken Livingstone How awful for you. Have you thought of having treatment?

OF How did tonight go?

KL Have you thought of having treatment?

OF Was it a good party? What does it mean for you?

KL What did you do before? Were you a German war criminal?

OF No, I'm Jewish, I wasn't a German war criminal and I'm actually quite offended by that. So, how did tonight go?

KL Arr right, well you might be [Jewish], but actually you are just like a concentration camp guard, you are just doing it because you are paid to, aren't you?

OF Great, I have you on record for that. So, how was tonight?

KL It's nothing to do with you because your paper is a load of scumbags and reactionary bigots.

OF I'm a journalist and I'm doing my job. I'm only asking for a comment.

KL Well, work for a paper that doesn't have a record of supporting fascism.

Sparky_Lightbourne Posted on 22/2 12:45
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

Raz it was a simile not a metaphor.

Frank you accept the point and then go on to say exactly the same as before. He did't believe the jewish journalist is like a concentration camp guard. Only his behaviour.

In which case why should an apology still be made?

Kilroy Silk on the other hand indulged in the worse type of racial stereotyping and rabble rousing in a published article, not the same thing at all

FuntimeFrank Posted on 22/2 12:46
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

I hate the Mail as much as the next man but just because he has an axe to grind doesnt mean he shouldnt be held to account about the things he says.

foomanboro Posted on 22/2 12:46
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

Could you only really deem it anti-semetic if he didn't know the journalist in questions was in fact jewish? I don't think he did and therefore he probably would have worded his comments differently had he known.

For example when i broke my foot and had it put in a cast a few years back, a lot of my friends made fun of me by calling me a "cripple". Would that be deemed offensive against the disabled or paraplegic community? Or was it just harmless jest at my expense?

Naturally i took it as the latter, knowing they would never actually call a real disabled person a "cripple".

--- Post edited by foomanboro on 22/2 12:48 ---

FuntimeFrank Posted on 22/2 12:49
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

Yeah but he continued to make an offensive point despite knowing he was being offensive. This coming from an important public figure. All because he has an axe to grind agoinst a newspaper group. Come on, he must be held accountable to some degree.

Kiwi_In_Disguise Posted on 22/2 12:49
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

Now, all i see there is that ken compared him to a guard for one reason... NOT RELIGON (Frank) but because they are both paid to do a job a lot a people hate. Including me.

FuntimeFrank Posted on 22/2 12:54
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

Why cant he see that in hindsight that the remark was offensive to the person concerned and apologise for that alone. If he has a beef with the Mail then by all means continue it but it leaves a sour taste in my mouth that a public official can make comments like this and get away with it.

foomanboro Posted on 22/2 12:57
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

I do agree with you Frank.

I can't see why Ken Livingston can't give an apology to the jewish community AND still NOT apologise to the daily mail.

The two statements can be be totally exclusive of one another. Suprised no-one has pointed this out to him.

Kiwi_In_Disguise Posted on 22/2 13:01
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

why can't you see that the man he said it to has upset more people than ken, and has never been asked to apologise, or when he has, just hidden behind the line... "Freedom of the press"
what about the Freedom of the people!
even if he is a high level official, he has no need to apologise to a man or group like the evening standard. or the many Jewish groups who jumped on the band wagon for some publicity.

Buddy Posted on 22/2 13:02
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

fooman - he has stated that his marks were not intended to cause offence to the Jewish community, AND it is clear from listening to the tape that they weren't. If you then say "but if it makes you feel better, I'm sorry", then you are pandering to people who take offence at the wrong things.

ITV news this lunchtime reported some Jewish leaders as wanting him to resign. Well they're making themselves look very silly if that's the case.

Azedarac Posted on 22/2 13:02
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

The quote from the journalist, "Great, I have you on record for that." is very interesting. That's not the statement of someone who's offended, it's the statement of someone who is pleased he's found another brickbat to beat his interviewee with.

FuntimeFrank Posted on 22/2 13:04
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

So everyone is fair game then? Just because a person is hated for his profession does not mean he should be insulted in relation to his culture or religeon. The two can be mutually exclusive.

NorfolknGood Posted on 22/2 13:05
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

He said over the past two weeks his "main concern" was for many Jewish Londoners.

"I have been deeply affected by the concern of Jewish people in the city, in particular that my comments may have been seen to downplay the horror and magnitude of the Holocaust.

"I wish to say to Londoners my words were not intended to cause such offence and that my view remains that the Holocaust against the Jews is the greatest racial crime of the 20th century."

What do you call that fooman if its not an apology to Jewish people?

RAZMOND_HWDR Posted on 22/2 13:07
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

I can't believe some people on here are trying to defend his choice of wording.

It is offensive in the extreme, and will cause offence to many people.

And because it will cause offense to many people heneeds to apologise.

Buddy Posted on 22/2 13:11
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

That's bollox Raz. I'm not getting into a long argument with you deliberately missing the point all the time.

RAZMOND_HWDR Posted on 22/2 13:12
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

shut up, please.

no need to reply to me if you do not wish to contribute to what I have to say.

Thankyou.

--- Post edited by RAZMOND_HWDR on 22/2 13:13 ---

Kiwi_In_Disguise Posted on 22/2 13:13
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

and he has, but not to the man he said it too. plus that man did not give a toss about what he said, all he though was the headline...

Back_Door_Barry Posted on 22/2 13:13
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

Wish he would do us all a favour and quit, before he does more irreperable damage to London (having already wrecked the Olympic bid). He`s the only remaining dinosaur from the days of the loony left. He should be sharing a retirement home with Scargill, Hatton, Benn and the rest of the dream factory.

Grumpy_Paul Posted on 22/2 13:14
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

Much ado about nothing. FFS
Who is paying the salaries of these people getting in their two penneth worth on such a trivial matter?

Joe Public, that's who.

foomanboro Posted on 22/2 13:18
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

Buddy - It's NOT a matter of pandering to the jewish community.

It's a matter of leaving yourself wide open for mis-interpretaion.

You can argue he has made his point clearly, however this has not been the case, as there seems to be a lot of confusion on the matter even now. as this thread shows.

Buddy Posted on 22/2 13:21
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

The only confusion, as so often the case, is caused by people who will not listen. They hear one thing, make their mind up, and then that's their lot.

Anyone listening to the tape and knowing even a little bit the history of the Holocaust and the Nuremberg trials - as both Livingstone and Finegold undoubtedly did - will understand the reference and understand that it was not intended to (nor should it) have even the tiniest bit of relevance to anyone else in the Jewish community.

All the rest is tabloidisation and it's starting to feel like we're living in a country of RAZMONDs.

captain5 Posted on 22/2 13:22
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

All rise for King Razmond.





Bring back the guillotine.

Kiwi_In_Disguise Posted on 22/2 13:26
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

wondering when you would show up cap

foomanboro Posted on 22/2 13:29
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

Yes but why elaborate his statement when he knows that it leaves him open to mis-interpretation. Yes people do hear what they want to hear. All the more reason to be careful with your wording.

However i am saying a simple statement like the following would have probably have left his critics with very little to work with:

"I would like to apologise to the jewish community for my unfortunate wording but that apology does not extend to daily mail and the ethics it stands for".

RAZMOND_HWDR Posted on 22/2 13:33
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

according to Buddy there is nothing wrong with how he worded what he said.

Mind he did word it that way to cause offense, and it worked, just on a much wider scale.

Buddy Posted on 22/2 13:36
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

See? You can get the point when you try.

RAZMOND_HWDR Posted on 22/2 13:40
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

I am not saying what he said, and the wording he used was the correct and justifiable wording, especially for someone as high profile as he is.

However you are the one that is suggesting that the wording he used was fine.

That I do not agree with, and because of that you presume that I miss the point.

Buddy Posted on 22/2 13:44
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

A difference of opinion I can more or less cope with. Stating it's the same as what Ron Atkinson said is missing the point.

RAZMOND_HWDR Posted on 22/2 13:49
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

never said that it was the same as what Big Ron had said, I said if Big Ron had made the same offensive remark whilst covering a match he would have been sacked for it.

Azedarac Posted on 22/2 13:55
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

"Mind he did word it that way to cause offense, and it worked, just on a much wider scale."

And who brought it to wider attention, enabling this multiplication of the possible offence caused? And what was the motive? If you felt someone verbally abused you at work would you a)take it up with their employer, b)take it up with the police, or c)run a national media campaign demanding an apology?

RAZMOND_HWDR Posted on 22/2 13:57
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

he is high profile, he should know better.

Azedarac Posted on 22/2 14:25
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

No answer to my questions then?

RAZMOND_HWDR Posted on 22/2 14:30
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

ffs he brought it to a wider audience by being high profile, he should know better.

If my boss was high profile and the abuse he gave me was bad enough that I felt it should be outted into the public domain then I would go to the papers (mainly because I need the money).

moxzin Posted on 22/2 14:38
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

Well, much as I resent proving scuzzmonster right (who are you calling a member anyway), I do object to this thread (how can it ever be called 'good work', unless of course its an intentional phrase to get a reaction...ah theres a thought). Won't go over old ground, but we all know that if this was Richard Littlejohn being pressured to apologise by the Guardian for a, shall we say, 'innocuous' comment about Muslims, half of the peoples on this threads sympathies would be elsewhere.

I don't really want a debate about the rights or wrongs of calling a Jew a Nazi, I just some people should be honest and admit their judgments are tempered, if only slightly, by the fact they hate the Daily Mail and admire Livingstone.

Sparky_Lightbourne Posted on 22/2 14:59
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

Well done moxzin, you have inadvertantley hit the proverbial nail on the head.

If it was that odious hack littlejohn who had made a similair comment the clamour for an apology would have died down by now, as the Gaurdian would have better stuff to write about and none of the other right wing press would care. The Mirror might have a go but that is only because he works for the Sun.

The only reason we are still on at this is because of who it is and what he stands for or more accurately what he stood for. The majority of the story is just tabloid froth and bile hyped up by the right wing editors \ owners to try and get there man. A process that will continue.

As pointed out by Norfolk he has apologised to the Jewish community, it is just that nobody has bothered to publish that bit.

It is all about poltics

moxzin Posted on 22/2 15:02
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

So is your standpoint influenced by the personalities involved then, or not?

sasboro Posted on 22/2 15:08
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

if you made that sort of comment at work to a jewish work colleage, i would imagine you would be disciplined.

captain5 Posted on 22/2 15:15
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

Mox.

I think the 'good work' phrase, is more in terms of Livingstone to refusing to bow down to pressure from pressure groups who are either after publicity or just after having a go at Livingstone/The Left (whatever that is), rather than what he actually said.

I thought you would support him in that respect at least.

shaun_84 Posted on 22/2 15:17
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

he bloody hates the Evening Standard and 'their national' The Mail. He'll not step down for a long while, if ever.

--- Post edited by shaun_84 on 22/2 15:17 ---

Sparky_Lightbourne Posted on 22/2 15:18
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

Not really, I have a pretty low veiw of all these he said she said type arguments.

Knowing that the entire episode has been filtered through the press, most of who like to spin these things one way or the other it tends to be difficult to get at the truth, also context is everything.

If more people knew exactly what he had said and in what context it was said there would be less of an issue, but that doesn't sell papers or illicit good qoutes from people

Bet the journalist was laughing, on the inside at least, after he said it. As evidenced by the 'I have you on record' statement. He knew he had a story that associated press would love and probably made the night worthwhile for him.

Scrote Posted on 22/2 15:25
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

"the Gaurdian would have better stuff to write about" because they would realise that it is a non story

the first time this was publicised by the mail group they decided it wasn't in their interests or the interest of the story they were pushing to actually publish the actual conversation - why do you think this was?

livingstone has not direclty offended anyone other than the person involved - or are we to never mention anything that has an historical link to something bad

if i said that razmond reminded me of an american buffalo hunter 'cos he destroys every thread he comes across with his inane ramblings should i then have to apologise to the american indians whose livelihoods were wrecked by the original buffalo hunters?

RAZMOND_HWDR Posted on 22/2 15:30
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

Did Ken Livingstone explain himself after he made those offensive comments like you just did?

No. So maybe his comments are misunderstood, however it is this ignorance that his comments no matter how offensive they come across will be understood in the most harmless of terms by everyone (which was not the case).

Sparky_Lightbourne Posted on 22/2 15:31
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

The Lightbourne applauds Scrote's analogie

captain5 Posted on 22/2 15:33
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

"So maybe his comments are misunderstood, however it is this ignorance that his comments no matter how offensive they come across will be understood in the most harmless of terms by everyone (which was not the case)."


Not really much to say about that Raz, I just thought that by copying and pasting it onto a post not by you, they might make sense.




Hasn't worked.

foomanboro Posted on 22/2 15:34
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

Good point scrote. He was having a go at the persucutors of the jews rather than the jews themselves.

Its like calling a person a homophobe. Should all gay people be offended by this comment or just the person who the comment was directed at?

moxzin Posted on 22/2 15:35
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

Its a poor analogy because he's not saying it directly to an American Indian, having ascertained he was such. (unless I've got it wrong and Razmond is indeed a Native American).

A fitting comparison would be to go to the Kazakh steppes, find a man who had his grandparents killed by Stalin in a Gulag and call him a member of the NKVD.

Or, heres a good idea, go into Drogheda and call someone who is getting authorititave with you 'Oliver Cromwell'.

foomanboro Posted on 22/2 15:42
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

Ok then mox use my analogy. Pretend the "homophobic" comment was made to a person who you didn't realise was gay.

Should anyone be offended by this comment appart from the guy who the the comment was aimed at?

RAZMOND_HWDR Posted on 22/2 15:45
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

foomanboro are you saying that the jewish people who were offended by his comments should not be offended in the first place?

foomanboro Posted on 22/2 15:48
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

Partially yes. Only because the comment was not a slight at the jewish people themselves but at their persecutors.

If jews were offended by the fact that they were reminded of the events of the holocaust, then that is a different matter.

--- Post edited by foomanboro on 22/2 15:49 ---

moxzin Posted on 22/2 15:50
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

'Homophobe' isn't a specfic and deliberate reference to a barbaric act in the past. I might go into Lockerbie. If someone there is really unkind to me I might liken them to a 'Libyan Bomber'.

I just think Livingstone has done the political/vocal equivalent of making helicopter gestures at Chelsea fans after Harding's death, for instance.

Using something you know will cause offence in a gratuitous way...I bet the actions on the terraces of those and other fans have been condemned by those on here. Why change your opinions because of who is saying it about who? Why?


I'm hoping this will reach 100 and Buddy will confess it was a wind-up, doesn't look like it. Won't add anything more to this unglorious quest other than to ask if Livingstone had said all my other examples, would it be the same or is it only concentration camp guard Jews that are acceptable?

--- Post edited by moxzin on 22/2 15:57 ---

RAZMOND_HWDR Posted on 22/2 15:53
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

Ken Livingstone hates the paper the reporter works for so he had a go at the reporter himself, who by all accounts said nothing offensive to help trigger this offensive onslaught from the Mayor of London.

foomanboro Posted on 22/2 15:56
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

"Homophobe isn't a specfic and deliberate reference to a barbaric act in the past."

I know it isn't but homophobes persecute gays, nazi's persecuted jews. Therefore the analogy does work.

"Why change your opinions because of who is saying it about who? Why?"

If this is aimed at me. I'd just like to say that i haven't changed my opinions, i just don't agree the jewish are offended for the same reasons that you think they are.

foomanboro Posted on 22/2 15:58
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

Therefore raz using your logic the only person who should be offended by the comments is the journalist itself.

RAZMOND_HWDR Posted on 22/2 16:02
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

are you asking me if I agree with Jewish people being offended?

If so then, I think they have every right to be offended with the offensive drivel that the Mayor of London came out with.

Urine_Extractor Posted on 22/2 16:16
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

que Boris Johnson "Jews wallowing in self grief".

Buddy Posted on 22/2 16:17
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

I want to add something but I don't think any new points have been made since the last time I posted......

No wind-up and no ton-seeking here moxy baby. I understand what he said, why he said it, and why he's not issuing daft and unnecessary public apologies.

--- Post edited by Buddy on 22/2 16:17 ---

moxzin Posted on 22/2 16:20
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

In fact, no new points have been made since the "Fooking Jews" thread, which covered this exact same subject.

Put a respectable name on it, slap in some more hyperbole and watch it go...again.

--- Post edited by moxzin on 22/2 16:21 ---

foomanboro Posted on 22/2 16:21
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

Yes we do know why he won't apologise because if he does, it would be as good as admitting he was guilty.

Like tony blair and iraq, if he was to admit making a mistake, his position would be untenable.

Buddy Posted on 22/2 16:22
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

Are you sure it covered the same subject moxzin, or are you making the same mistake as the clamouring mob in not actually taking in what was said?

moxzin Posted on 22/2 16:25
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

Well, one was questioning why he should have to apologise, and the other is congratulating him for not apologising so far. Pretty similar to me.

You're inching there. Keep it up...

--- Post edited by moxzin on 22/2 16:25 ---

SidSnot Posted on 22/2 16:29
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

Fooman's got this right. Ken should apologies to the Jewish community for using a metaphor that was frankly in very poor taste. But what he should not do is apologise to either the Associated Newspaper Group or Finegold, the reporter. This is effectively what he has done, but instead of apologising he expressed regret at cause of offence (which is pretty weak, he should that such an example is likely to cause offence).

Notwithstanding the above, both the Standard and the Mail are tawdry rags.

Buddy Posted on 22/2 16:30
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

You're probably right on reading back, I thought it was less Ken-based and more Jews-in-general-based.

mox, if I wanted to just generate a 100 I would do it on something controversial. This is a no-brainer except for you and RAZ.

Gillandi Posted on 22/2 16:32
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

If Richard Littlejohn had said something similar it WOULD be interprated differently like Moxzin says. You have to put the comments into the context of who's saying them before you decide whether they were intended to cause offence or not. Richard Littlejohn, whilst working for the Sun over a period of many years has a long history of racial intolerance (he once wrote an article sayng it was a good thing when illegal immigrants suffocated to death in boats and trucks for example). He and The Sun (and the Standard and Mail) have long histories of intolerance towards homosexuals and other minority groups too. Littlejohn would presumably deny, like Ken, that he intended to offend to the Jewish community and no-one could prove otherwise, the third party (us) just has to make a judgement based on his past history. As Ken Livingstone has devoted most of his career to campaigning aginst allkinds of intolerance, going out on a political limb many times and being slaughtered and libelled by these papers as he's done it then his comments have to be taken into that context.

An example could be Boro Programmes and Red Rebel both saying something on here that could be interprated as anti-semitic to the political pedant. Yes it's exactly the same thing, no difference but no-one can prove their intent to cause offense, you just have to make a judgement on the liklihood based on the character and history of the people involved.

I think Kens targets on this occasion were a very damaging newspaper group and no-one else. His comparison of the hack as a Nazi guard is a good and obvious one given what he said about him only doing his job. That comment damned him more than those Ken made because as a jew, he has more need than most to reconcile his own morals and faith with the company he works for. ie The Standard/Mail tries to create the same mood of fear and loathing against asylum seekers today in the UK that the Nazi's succeeded in doing in Germany in the 30's against the jews.

Makes me wonder just how orthodox a Jew the reporter in queston is or how desperate for a job.

I'm a protestant for example but havent been in to prey in a Church Of England since I was 8 year old.



--- Post edited by Gillandi on 22/2 16:38 ---

RAZMOND_HWDR Posted on 22/2 16:34
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

no need to have a go at me Buddy.

You have obviously got something against me.

Buddy Posted on 22/2 16:36
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

Have I? Not other than the fact that you are pushing sasboro for the title of Biggest Wilful Opposition To Any Argument.

captain5 Posted on 22/2 16:36
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

You're saying that boroprogrammes and red_rebel aren't just two usernames used by the same person??

Illusions shattered once more.

Gillandi Posted on 22/2 16:39
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

Capt - They both seem to have dissappeared at the same time.

captain5 Posted on 22/2 16:41
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

A parallel universe swap caught in action??

moxzin Posted on 22/2 16:45
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

Buddy - any decent sort would see there is opposition to their post and therefore realise it isn't a "no-brainer", unless you were feeling unkind.

Back_Door_Barry Posted on 22/2 17:23
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

Buddy - It`s not a "No Brainer" for me either. I think Livingstone is a disrage and would resign if he had any shred of decency. He won`t of course, not as long as he can keep his snought in the public funded trough.

Sparky_Lightbourne Posted on 22/2 17:24
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

Just to keep things going, nearly at that magic mark.

Sid, as I pointed out to Raz earlier what Ken said was a simile not a metaphor.

Good old 'Red' was just likening the hacks probable excuse for 'doorstepping' him to that used by concentration camp gaurds, ie just following orders \ doing my job.

A fact the journo showing an astonishing lack of awareness confirmed a few sentences later

He was making no comment on the suffering of the Jewish community during the holocaust, the fact that people don't realise this is a result of the misinformation wilfully fed to them by certian elements of the press.

Once you realise what he was saying the issue does become a 'no brainer' because there is no story.

Mox, I would contend that your standpoint is being influenced by the personalities involved.

--- Post edited by Sparky_Lightbourne on 22/2 17:27 ---

--- Post edited by Sparky_Lightbourne on 22/2 17:28 ---

--- Post edited by Sparky_Lightbourne on 22/2 17:31 ---

moxzin Posted on 22/2 17:27
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

and I would say not.


See, I'm getting the hang of this debate thing.

captain5 Posted on 22/2 17:32
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

So you would allow other people, if they say it is the case, like I did earlier (below), to say that their judgement is similarly not swayed??

"Oh and I don't even like the guy, I certainly don't align myself with him, politically or otherwise."

moxzin Posted on 22/2 17:34
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

There we go then. 100.

Leedsclive Posted on 22/2 17:37
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

Any decent minded person holds Mail Group papers in contempt with their constant efforts to worry middle England to ransom with scare stories of the country being over-run by illegal immigrants and sometimes plain lies. Although they're preaching to the converted with the Mail, can't see any Labour or LibDems reading that, the Standard is the only London evening paper and you're pretty much forced to read it.
Ken has missed the point though. It's not about being anti-Semitic, it's belittling the suffering of the Jews by comparing his problems with a hostile press to genocide, made worse by saying it to a Jewish person. If he can't see why it's sensible to give an apology for that remark (made in the heat of the moment) because it was an inapt comparison then he's not very bright. He only needs to apologise to the individual, not the Mail group and can still make it clear that their newspapers are unpleasant, but for now he's just making himself look stupid and unfeeling.

br14 Posted on 22/2 18:01
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

So basically as long as you're a raving leftie, you can say whatever you like and the nice PC folks on this board (at least) will back you up.

Let play spot the hypocrite...

Gillandi Posted on 22/2 18:07
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

If he was a raving leftie or had not done a great job at the GLC previously he would never have been elected as Mayor of London in the first place, an office, lest we forget, that is fundamentally conservative in its outlook by it's very nature. He got in because he looked the most honest, caring and least corrupt of the candidates.

SidSnot Posted on 22/2 18:24
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

Sparky - I was more focused on the initial comment "What did you do before? Were you a German war criminal?" I thought this was a metaphor, I agree the following orders comment was a simile. Whilst the former comment doesn't directly diminish the suffering of the Jewish community, it does suggest a comparability of motive. I still think this is in very poor taste.

Buddy Posted on 22/2 18:47
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

Is it entirely in order for ITV News to take such an obvious anti-Ken line on this? I thought their job was to report the news objectively?

SidSnot Posted on 22/2 18:49
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

Yes Buddy they are meant to be politically neutral. Mind, that doesn't stop the BBC being overtly biased against the Conservatives.

the_thread_needler Posted on 22/2 19:12
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

I think Sid the BBC side with the establishment as opposed to being left wing.

Scrote Posted on 22/2 19:37
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

"having ascertained he was such" - mox - that would imply that he went out of his way to find out the guy was jewish before he decided which of his catalogue of insults to throw - that is patently not what happened and to posit it as such shows either a lack of understanding or a pernicious attempt to portray KL as a racist - which is it?

ken said he thought the journalist was acting badly and he believed he was happy doing it but was falling back on the "just following orders" excuse as a means to justify his 'work'

can anyone here give a better example of this than a concentration camp guard (especially bearing in mind that this subject has been dominant in the last few months)

if you can't understand a) what was said in the first place; in context and b) why some parts of the media might want to pursue it it in a loathsome and quite frankly truthless manner then don't be surprised when people who do tell you that you are arguing against a "no-brainer"

sw2boro Posted on 22/2 19:42
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

Ken may be blotting his copy book at the moment by hanging out with "Islamic" fascists in his anti-war mania, but in this storm in a tea cup he's played a blinder, and made the Mail look very small indeed.

FuntimeFrank Posted on 22/2 19:49
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

Granted Livingstone has a beef with journalists and the Mail group and yes a lot of journalists are pretty low but that does not in any way excuse what RedKen has done.

I cant believe that many people are excusing the comments on the basis that a)some areas of the right wing media might have an agenda and b)that Ken didnt actually call the guy a Nazi but only likened his actions as a journalist to a nazi guard.

At the end of the day Ken is a highly ranked public official and made an extremely offensive comment to a person and continued to make it knowing that the person was offended. For this he (or any other person) should apologise.

sw2boro Posted on 22/2 19:51
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

But as someone else has pointed out, if the guy was so offended by it, what's he doing working for a paper that has a looooong history of nasty anti-semitism?

green_beret20 Posted on 22/2 19:52
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

How exactly did this thread get so many posts in it?

His comment was anti-fascist so the Jewish community should be up on their feet applauding the man.

He was comparing the reporter to a concentration camp guard in order to insult him. It was a jibe at the reporters tactics of getting a story, not what his ethnic background is.

sw2boro Posted on 22/2 19:54
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

Exactly!

FuntimeFrank Posted on 22/2 19:59
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

Well i cant answer why the reporter works for that paper. All i know is I dont want high ranking public officials grinding an axe against a newspaper by using comments that are offensive to a particular group.

Where does it end if we decide that this is ok? Are Muslims fair game? Can we liken a Muslim reporter to an American soldier? After all they were just "following orders".

Buddy Posted on 22/2 20:52
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

*agrees with green_beret20*

moxzin Posted on 22/2 21:16
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

Scrote, have you seen the transcript? Called him a German War Criminal, he replied he was Jewish and found it offensive, and THEN Livingstone proceeded with the macabre insult.

I think most rational people would have had something click in their brain between Nazis and Jews, and its up to them to run with it or decide on something less distasteful. Livingstone chose the former, and so must face the consequences (which may not be a lot).

But one of them is that he acted wilfully and with full knowledge of the reporter's Judaism in mind. THATS the problem I have with this.

The first comment, the ascertaining he was Jewish, and THEN the second comment.

Sparky_Lightbourne Posted on 22/2 21:24
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

Sid, lets forget the thread and continue with the lingusitic deconstruction.

Metaphor - A figure of speech in which a word or phrase that ordinarily designates one thing is used to designate another, thus making an implicit comparison, as in “a sea of troubles” or “All the world's a stage”

simile - A figure of speech in which two essentially unlike things are compared, often in a phrase introduced by like or as, as in “How like the winter hath my absence been” or “So are you to my thoughts as food to life”

Would have said that the german war criminal line was a direct question and neither a metaphor or a simile.

Phew glad I cleared that one up

br14 Posted on 22/2 21:38
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

Mr Livingstone likened a Jew to a Nazi. Now I dont know about your Jewish friends, but all my Jewish friends (3) lost family or friends in the Holocaust.

There is no excuse for what Livingstone said. None. Those who defend him should examine their motives.

Buddy Posted on 22/2 21:40
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

Has the entire thread passed you by br14?

RAZMOND_HWDR Posted on 22/2 21:41
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

'you are just like a concentration camp guard'

that is a simile.

br14 Posted on 22/2 21:43
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

Nope. Just focussing on the issue and not superimposing my own political views.

Comparing anyone to a Nazi guard is dumb. As Silvio Berlesconi discovered.

Comparing a Jewish person, no matter how dispicable, is malicious.

RAZMOND_HWDR Posted on 22/2 21:45
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

Buddy does not agree with you so will just end up insulting you.

Buddy Posted on 22/2 21:45
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

*beats head against brick wall*

Buddy Posted on 22/2 21:46
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

RAZ, this time you're interpreting an accusation of "missing the point" as an insult I presume? Or have you got any more examples?

br14 Posted on 22/2 21:49
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

It's a long thread and fairly ambiguous but I'm guessing his point is that Livingstone didnt use the word "Nazi". So I suppose he could have been referring to a British concentration camp in South Africa.

But we all know he wasnt.

If we made a similar comparison my guess is the post would be removed by Admin!

Buddy Posted on 22/2 21:50
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

Can I suggest that you read the thread? You're entirely wrong about the justification.

red_rebel Posted on 22/2 21:51
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

Man arrives back at car which is four inches onto some double yellows and finds stony faced traffic warden hovering about and about to write a ticket.

Man: "Give me a sec and I'll move it mate no probs,"

TW: "No sorry, too late I'm going to give you a ticket"

Man: "Yerjokingarntyer? I'll move it now. Come on mate.

TW: "Sorry" (smiles, writes ticket)

Man: "You bloody jobsworth Hitler."

TW: (puts ticket under wiper) "I'm Jewish by the way"

Man: "You're still a jumped up little bloody Hitler. Do you enjoy persecuting people? You Nazi."


(Man not in least bit famous so is not persecuted in press for deranged bout of anti-semitism. Traffic warden is thick skinned and abused several times a day so shrugs it off.)

RAZMOND_HWDR Posted on 22/2 21:54
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

the 'Man' is not okay saying those things.

the 'Man' is bloody lucky the traffic warden is thick skinned or he could have reported the abuse.

br14 Posted on 22/2 22:00
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

Ok. Here's what was said according to an earlier post:

KL Arr right, well you might be [Jewish], but actually you are just like a concentration camp guard, you are just doing it because you are paid to, aren't you?

So thats Ok is it.

You agree with green_beret's thread, which has to be the most fallacious argument I've ever seen on this board.

I go back to Berlesconi's comments, in which he suggested a German MEP would be a good fit for a part in a movie as a concentration camp guard. Perhaps Berlesconi was also being anti-fascist?

I really dont see the difference.

If you wish to sympathize with a man who freely uses inappropriate comparisons thats up to you. You're entitled to your opinion.

YouAreMyBoro Posted on 22/2 22:06
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

I have nothing to add to this argument apart from the fact that someone at work couldn't pronounce ethnicity properly and it took 2 other people to confirm my pronunciation of it as being correct.

And I agree with Buddy, Fooman et al (unless KL said what he said cos he knew/suspected the bloke was Jewish - which we can't prove).

RAZMOND_HWDR Posted on 22/2 22:08
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

when he called him a concentration camp guard he knew he was jewish. Please see below.

KL What did you do before? Were you a German war criminal?

OF No, I'm Jewish, I wasn't a German war criminal and I'm actually quite offended by that. So, how did tonight go?

KL Arr right, well you might be [Jewish], but actually you are just like a concentration camp guard, you are just doing it because you are paid to, aren't you?

YouAreMyBoro Posted on 22/2 22:24
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

Apologies, I didn't make myself clear.

I was referring to the fact that he may have known/suspected the guy was Jewish before the start of their transcripted conversation.

If he did have an idea (I've heard that some Jewish people have a stereotypical look about them), then what he said would be inflammatory. If what he said he'd have said to anyone who was harassing him, it was silly, but not inflammatory towards the Jewish community.

Buddy Posted on 22/2 22:55
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

I haven't heard or seen a transcript of the Berlusconi conversation. If it was along similar lines to this one, then you would be right and they would both be a fuss about very little.

DavyT Posted on 22/2 23:13
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

It has been blown out of proportion by the media trying to look after one of thier own and to cause a scandal when there really isn't one there. It clearly is not a racist comment, prehaps ill advised concidering his ethnic background but no way racist as he did not make any comment to say or imply anything derogatory towards the jewish race or religion. It's all media bollox as ever. I for one am glad he did not say sorry as i am sick to death of the media and their selective morals.

Scrote Posted on 22/2 23:39
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

moxzin - is it ok if i find offence in your assertion that all germans are nazis - presumably including german jews??

SidSnot Posted on 23/2 9:09
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

Sparky - I hate to admit it, but you're right. Back to English Grammer lessons for me I think.

bodmass Posted on 23/2 11:00
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

Livingstone is making a political calculation with his standpoint, just like he did when he invited Muslim leader Qaradawi to London. This is the cleric who supports suicide bombers, wife beating and condemns homosexuals.

Ken was condemned by many for doing so but IMO he thought he would look good to a large section of his core support in London i.e. Muslims.

I believe he is thinking along the same lines with this one. IMO he's thinking 'I've insulted a Jew and I won't apologise. This should strengthen my standing with the capitals large Muslim population.'

Gillandi Posted on 23/2 16:26
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

I think that's nonsense Bodmass, personally, I don't think there was any calculation on ken's part, the opposite in fact, I think he was more than just a little bit merry on wine (red, of course,) he was just leaving a party after all. He just hates journalists from the Standard monstering him.

moxzin Posted on 23/2 17:15
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

Where is this assertion, scrote?

Scrote Posted on 23/2 17:30
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

"Called him a German War Criminal, he replied he was Jewish and found it offensive, and THEN Livingstone proceeded with the macabre insult.

I think most rational people would have had something click in their brain between Nazis and Jews..."

quite unequivocal in your assertion that "most rational people" would assume that German = Nazi

--- Post edited by Scrote on 23/2 17:34 ---

moxzin Posted on 23/2 17:47
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

you what? sorry I don't follow your line of thinking at all.

Tell me where I said all Germans were Nazis, that was what we were talking about.

Scrote Posted on 23/2 18:11
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

using your strict word for word semantics that seem to be fine when discussing what was said by mr livingstone i deconstructed your post in my "rational" little brain and applied the following logic

stop me when i go wrong

1. not all war criminals are nazis 'cos ariel sharon (by your own testimony on earlier threads) isn't a nazi but he is being pursued as a war criminal (or was last time i looked) - also see kissenger, h; my lai; jenin etc...

2. you say "rational people would have had something click in their brain between Nazis and Jews" whilst commenting on a conversation that never mentioned the word nazi but did mention germans and war criminals

3. by way of point 1 you are substituting the word nazi for german and asserting that most rational people would do the same

i find that offensive in the extreme

Gillandi Posted on 23/2 18:25
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

At that Scrote cooked Moxzin's heart in chianti and fava beans and washed it all down with a 1954 bottle of Bordeaux.


moxzin Posted on 23/2 18:32
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

Actually, Scrote, I'm substituting the word Nazi for concentration camp guard. Concentration camp guards were Nazi personnel. Surely no problems there?

The other case you could argue is that I was substituting Nazi for "German War Criminal" (because German War Criminal is the noun, not simply a German). In which case you'd have to be a Super-Pedant to seperate a German War Criminal from a Nazi. Could you go back to Napeleonic Times, Bismarckian Times, maybe First World War to find a non-Nazi German war criminal. Maybe you could.

So you could get me on calling all 'German War Criminals' Nazis. If you find that offensive...

Either you're demonstrating humongous hypocrisy here (ie, letting Livingstone off but finding huge offence where there isn't any in someone elses comments) or you're trying to demonstrate how easily these accusations can be made. You'll probably claim the 2nd and all your cyber friends will back you up.

But you and I both know, that was a very, very poor attempt to try and twist my words. Very poor, as it doesn't even make any sense.

Buddy Posted on 23/2 18:34
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

Can I back him up before he claims it please?

Very very poor attempt to twist your words eh? A bit like saying that referring to somebody following orders as a concentration camp guard is an insult to all Jews everywhere really.

Very very poor attempt.

I think this one's closed chaps.

--- Post edited by Buddy on 23/2 18:35 ---

moxzin Posted on 23/2 18:37
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

They hunt in packs, eh?

Buddy Posted on 23/2 18:38
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

I realise you find it strange that more than one person shares a similar opinion mox, it can't happen to you very often. 'Tis a fact of moderate intelligent life though.

moxzin Posted on 23/2 18:42
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

Difference between sharing an opinion and 3 people weighing into one board member. Anyway, its you, I better be careful what I say. Don't want to get banned.

Or maybe I do. Things don't change, do they?

Buddy Posted on 23/2 18:48
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

See this is where the persecution complex kicks in.

I agreed with a suggestion you made and then backed it up in the edit.

YOU made a spurious remark about hunting in packs which had bugger all to do with my post.

I then reacted to that.

And I'm the one weighing in?????

You also know perfectly well that nobody gets banned for disagreeing with me. People get banned (or, much more often, have their posts deleted) for breaking the rules. Can't see anywhere you've done that. Making daft remarks like that puts you on the level of the trolls who come on here to see how much trouble they can cause I'm afraid, and I believe that actually you're way way above that.

Scrote Posted on 23/2 18:49
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

sorry to burst your balloon mox but i'd rather claim humongous hypocrisy on my part

i now fully accept that livingstone is a tvvat and was deeply offensive to practically the whole world and i take no pleasure from the fact that this means that you too are an odious little twerp (© NFG i think ) who probably also habitually offends the whole universe

or do you disagree??

is twisting one person's words more acceptable than twisting anothers?

the fact you say you 'know' i was twisting your words would imply to me at least that you 'knew' you were twisting ken's

if you can't see the similarity (or perhaps carbon copy?) between your stance and my (admittedly quite pathetic) points then i really do pity you

--- by 'pathetic points' i don't mean wrong btw - the points of logic stand in a skewed semantics only way but i accept that the gist of the posts was merely a tool to point out where i think your argument falls down - however if you don't agree that your argument has little foundation then the logic, by your own rules, stands and the rest of this post holds true ---

--- also you can't argue 'ganging up' when people who have held the same opinion throughout two 100+ posts and perhaps 1.5 weeks debate continue to agree with each other ---

--- Post edited by Scrote on 23/2 18:54 ---

moxzin Posted on 23/2 18:56
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

Sorry Scrote but I don't see the similarity, so please, pity me. On the one hand you try and create something totally spurious (which, hilariously Gillandi went along with) about something non-existant, while on the other hand, Livingstone actually said something, renewedly that, **FOR ME IF NO-ONE ELSE**, could be deemed offensive to a Jewish person in light of the events of the Holocaust. So I don't see the connection between the two states of affairs. red_rebels is more to the point, and I would judge that exchange to be offensive to that Jewish traffic warden. Thats my opinion and I can see I'm in the minority.

It was a cheap shot, Buddy. Just fighting snide remarks with snide remarks.

Gillandi Posted on 23/2 18:59
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

Moxzin - I hope i'm not the third person jumping in you speak of, I was just trying to inject a note of levity. I happen to think Scrote and Buddy are absolutely right in what they say and could pick apart your arguments just as easily if i wanted but have deliberatly not, it just amused me that Scrote was having to go to the great lengths he's gone to to try and get some simple points through to you. I tend not to get involved in arguments with you now as you've probably noticed. I've taken away one of your main distractions because you are very easily distracted in these debates so please don't accuse me of hunting in any packs.

--- Post edited by Gillandi on 23/2 19:02 ---

moxzin Posted on 23/2 19:02
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

Nothing wrong with levity. Levity's good.

Looks like I called it wrong here, hold my hands up.

Maybe its past differences, I mean it wouldn't be the first time that Scrote, Buddy and Gillandi were in opposition with me. All we need is NorfolknGood and we'd have a complete set.

No fair enough. Old paranoia rules.

Gillandi Posted on 23/2 19:04
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

No problem Mox, I understand that, apols fully accepted. Now, carry on.

Gillandi Posted on 23/2 19:29
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

I guess when Mox starts explaining his stance in a kind of legalese that borders on the offensive ("..in light of the holocaust") the debate is fizzling out.

Mox - Do you really think a fitting comparison for what Ken said would be someone going up the Kazakh steps, finding a man who had his grandparents killed by Stalin and calling him a member of the NKVD? That sounds a little OTT to me for a good christian boy as yourself.








--- Post edited by Gillandi on 23/2 19:33 ---

littlejimski Posted on 23/2 19:48
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

I'm gutted, Moxy. You left me out of your list.

moxzin Posted on 23/2 19:52
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

Just noticed you completely edited that post from the original, Gillandi. I think the comparison is fair, and equally unacceptable in my view. Sorry about talking about the Holocaust like that, but I think that point is slightly petty. We've had the massive discussion about the Holocaust the other week, no-one can question how I feel about it, so I resent accusations of demeaning it in any way, so I don't understand that point.

Sorry littlejimmy. you been away too long, patently.

littlejimski Posted on 23/2 19:54
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

I haven't been away. It's just fun to sit back and watch sometimes.

Gillandi Posted on 23/2 20:43
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

Moxzin - Yeah sorry, I accidentally caught you in a kind of pincer movement earlier as I was editing (adding to) my post as you were responding to my first draught. I may have benefitted from some good will on your part that otherwise may have not been forthcoming. I'll disregard your post to put us back on an even keel there.

You are dead right too, I shouldn't and can't demean your feelings regards the holocaust, I know you are sound on that front. As I know Ken Livingstone is sound on his.

reidy86 Posted on 17/2 12:20
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

good work indeed

Lefty3668 Posted on 17/2 12:25
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

This is all from over a year ago. Why is it at the top of the board? Is the board playing up?

Buddy Posted on 24/2 12:11
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

Reidy obviously knew the disciplinary panel was coming up.

Link: Suspended

Buddy Posted on 28/2 19:02
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

Not suspended

Link: just yet

Scrote Posted on 28/2 19:17
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

and when it comes to common-sense over knee-jerkery we can usually rely on the judiciary to sort it out


green_beret20 Posted on 28/2 19:25
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

Buddy do you quite regularly throw your support behind the misunderstood (in cases such as this) or is it only when one of your dying breed of far left chums whom have held onto some remnants of political power are in peril?

What if it was say Jeremy Clarkson?

I think Red Ken was misunderstood but I stll think he's an a**ehole.

Buddy Posted on 28/2 20:31
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

beret you really should concentrate harder. I don't do pigeon holing and Clarkson is my favourite person on telly by a considerable distance.

Buddy Posted on 19/10 10:29
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

Never say I don't keep you updated.

Link: Livingstone wins appeal

Capybara Posted on 19/10 10:47
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

Seems to have survived several board culls, this thread.

Buddy Posted on 19/10 11:01
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

I think it's only survived one, in that reidy's hoof kept it alive just before the last one. Mind you I'm not sure what the furthest back posts are now. I know this is now my only 100+.

Capybara Posted on 19/10 11:37
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

This is the big thing on the London 'phone-in at the moment. Splitting into 'I like Ken therefore he's right/I don't like him therefore he's wrong' debate.

Talking of which, have you seen where your mate Gaunty is these days?

Buddy Posted on 19/10 11:48
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

Here, it would appear....

Link: Gaunt

trodbitch Posted on 19/10 11:50
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

Bloody strange, this thread shouldn't be here...

Capybara Posted on 19/10 11:52
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

Crikey

Anyroad, I was surprised (perhaps that's not the word) to see he's writing for the Sun (copy found in pub).

Capybara Posted on 19/10 15:24
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

Just been reading some of this and, in many ways, it's a classic FMTTM thread. Great work from a spectrum of regulars, past and present, from the ridiculous to the sensible.

Highlight:

'Wish he would do us all a favour and quit, before he does more irreperable (sic) damage to London (having already wrecked the Olympic bid).'

Eddie_Catflap Posted on 19/10 15:43
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

Last thread available in topic view is this (from 26 - 27th Feb). Rivals are full of bull if you ask me..

Link: old one

Buddy Posted on 19/10 15:48
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

Eddie - I posted on 28/2/06, then I think they did a "one month" purge towards the end of March, so that's probably what beat it.

Please tell me you didn't scroll all the way through.....

Eddie_Catflap Posted on 19/10 15:54
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

So much for the rumoured 45 day cut off, unless I imagined it? The board has over 60,000 threads on it now.

No, even my procastination doesn't stretch to that...!

Capybara Posted on 5/6 10:38
re: Good work Mayor Livingstone

Nice to see this is still around