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gravy173 Posted on 6/4 9:49
A catholic community - Boro minutes silence

middlesbrough has a very large catholic community compared with the rest of england due to all the irish/scousers coming over in the mid 1800's to the cleveland hills.
If you look at a schools list you'll find a lot of catholic primary and secondary schools and even one of the few catholic sixth form colleges in england.
As such i think its fair to say that a middlesbrough match has a right more than most to have a minutes silence for the pope.

Anyone agree with me?

newholgate Posted on 6/4 9:56
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silence

Yes.

Also, the chairman is Catholic, as are quite a few of the players, various members of staff from the club and I'm sure thousands of the supporters.

For the Catholic community, this is a great loss. So, yes I think it's right to have a minutes silence. As the stadium will no doubt contain thousands of catholics from Middlesbrough, matches will probably also be the time when most catholics in Middlesbrough are together in one place as churches in the area certainly couldn't hold thousands. Therefore, I think it is a good opportunity for catholics to come together and take one minute to share their loss. Hopefull, non-catholics will respect this and will also observe the silence.

DybuksChampion Posted on 6/4 10:00
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silence

Yep. As a lapsed Catholic I'd go along with that. Most of my familly are season ticket holders so there are definitely a good few there.

Matelot Posted on 6/4 10:07
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silence

We also had a huge mass in the riverside a few years back with thousands of folk there.

He was a good peaceful god fearing man who in spite of what ever walk of life you come from i think the respect is due.

but iam a left footer anyway so i am bound to say that.

Durham_Red Posted on 6/4 10:11
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

I am not sure whether a football stadium in the right place for people to pay their respect to the late pope. Catholics on Teesside have had the opportunity to pay their respects at their local churches which surely the correct place.

I think minute silences at football matches, should be left for ex-players, great servants to English football and in very special occasions great servants to the country.

Bobby_DazzIer Posted on 6/4 10:12
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silence

The club also originated from catholic roots in South Bank St. Peters.

Most of the catholics I know are catholic. I always find them better company than protestants.

gravy173 Posted on 6/4 10:15
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

so people like ken bigley then........

Matelot Posted on 6/4 10:16
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silence

funny that bobby as most of the Catholics i know are catholics as well??????

number_10 Posted on 6/4 10:16
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

Agree with most of the sentiment but even as a catholic I don't think we should have one.

A minority won't be able to keep their mouthes shut guarenteed.

Don't let them do it.

bubblesmfc Posted on 6/4 10:19
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

I dont want to offend anyone but cant you pay your respects privately on Friday when the funeral is?

"Most of the catholics I know are catholic. I always find them better company than protestants."

Whats that about? I judge people on what they are like , religion doesnt enter into it.

--- Post edited by bubblesmfc on 6/4 10:21 ---

sasboro Posted on 6/4 10:20
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silence

does this open up for other people from other religions passing away to get a minutes silence?

Either way i'm not bothered

As someone mentioned most people wil be paying their repects at a church.

Also it happened a week before the game and his funeral wil have passed. So maybe if it happened they day before the game then fair enough. Also we are not a catholic country like italy

eiresonlyborofan Posted on 6/4 10:21
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

Durham_Red. The Pope played a bit of ball in his youth

Matelot Posted on 6/4 10:21
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silence

in ten years time we wont even be a christain country.

newholgate Posted on 6/4 10:24
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silence

I think if any major leader dies, then its ok to have a minutes silence. The Pope wasn't just Head of the Catholic Church, he was also Head of State in the Vatican (which is a country in its own right).

I'm sure Catholics will pay their respects on Friday, but on Saturday there will be thousands of Catholics all together in one place. It's nice to be able to do these things as part of a large community.

bandito Posted on 6/4 10:24
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

religion has become a bit of a laughing stock so why mix it in with football. Cant see the point really in a minutes silence. Waste of time. If people want to pay their respects they can go to a church or queue in Rome for 3 days in soaring heat.

gravy173 Posted on 6/4 10:24
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silence

no we're not sas as i said but middlesbrough does have a very large catholic community unlike the majority of england as has liverpool and hull. some of the minutes silences we've had have had nothing to do with middlesbrough before but they were still allowed so why not the pope, many anti royals observed the queen mothers and dianas minutes silence

scuzzmonster Posted on 6/4 10:29
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

I'm not sure a football stadium is an entirely appropriate venue for this - just doesn't feel right somehow and I'm another not-so-devout left footer.

newholgate Posted on 6/4 10:32
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silence

I hate our Royal Family with a passion and would rather do away with the monarchy. But I did observe the silence for Diana and the Queen Mother, mainly out of respect for fellow Boro supporters who like the Royal Family but also because when anyone dies, I think the least they deserve is a bit of acknowledgement for the fact that they once lived and meant a lot to many people. As much as I dislike the Queen, I would observe a minutes silence for her death.

Rondo_1 Posted on 6/4 10:37
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silence

Teesside also has a large Protestant community so I don't think they should be subjected to this. If you are so upset at his passing go to church and prey for him like you shoul being a good catholic.

It was sick watching him being wheeled out in St Peters Square not knowing what the hell was going on around him. The Vatican should be ashamed.

juninho_is_god Posted on 6/4 10:39
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silence

Ok, but im a devoted protestant, i dont agree with anything to do with the pope, why should i have to give this man the respect he hasnt shown towards us?

jaci88 Posted on 6/4 10:40
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silence

BD whats all that about?

jk1311 Posted on 6/4 10:48
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silence

j_i_g.......how can you be a devoted protestant when you say juninho is god??? even if this were in fun a devoted member of the protestant faith would never say anyone or thing was god other than the God they worship.

As far as the minutes silence for The Pope ...... I am not a catholic or practicing protestant but I have no problems at all standing and paying respect to any person who has passed on and done their best for those they leave behind.

extratomato Posted on 6/4 10:50
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silence

No No and No again.

Whilst I can manage to stand in silence for a minute and respect another mans faith or beliefs, there will always be the bunch of idiots who cannot.

Football and religion just dont mix - look at Glasgow and to some extent the Mogga testimonial.

You are right Middlesbrough does have a large catholic following, and they deserve the right to show respect. However the football stadia is not the place to show it. Especially if the said "idiots" go on to chant the "all the geordies went to Rome" song.

What we dont need is this large group of supporters being offended by some p!ssed up numb nuts who cant keep there mouths shut for 60 seconds of their lives, the crowd is already factious in its support of McClaren. We dont need further divisions.

However if HRH Steve of Teesside says we do it - we do it.

gravy_boat Posted on 6/4 10:54
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silence

I'm at odds with several things the Catholic church stands for, and advocates, and will feel very uncomfortable sitting through a minutes silence in honour of its leader.

T4Tomo Posted on 6/4 10:58
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silence

The non-Catholics could treat it as a minutes silence in rememberence of the millions who have died in Catholic countrys through Aids and Poverty during his pontificate due to his preaching that using condoms or any form of birth control was against God's wishes.

I think a minutes silence at a football match for him would be inappropriate.

newholgate Posted on 6/4 11:01
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silence

He never preached that using any form of birth control was against Gods wishes. In fact, the Catholic Church has no problem with birth control as long as its not an artificial method.

Bobby_DazzIer Posted on 6/4 11:06
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silence

Whats all what about Jaci?

Juninho is God - yes you must be very devoted with a blasphemous username like that. In what sense has the pope disrespected your faith, it sounds to me like you are the one doesn't respect other faiths.

Bubbles - In my experience I find catholics have better manners generally. I think it is something to do with their schooling. Generally speaking they are more disciplined than state schools.

number_10 Posted on 6/4 11:09
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

I don't remember the last few royal silences being entirely well observed either..............

bubblesmfc Posted on 6/4 11:12
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silence

So because someone isnt a catholic they have no manners? Rubbish.

Seems a sad way to decide who your friends are.

pisces Posted on 6/4 11:20
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silence

gravy_boat, I'm also at odds with certain things the pope did, I agree with you, but I'm more at odds with a certain thing he didn't do and that was to not punish or censure all the priests that were found to be guilty of abusing members of their congregation, they were just moved on to another location and able to carry on.
I will not be observing a minutes silence on Saturday if there is one.

T4Tomo Posted on 6/4 11:27
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silence

new holgate - substitute "effective" for "artificial" and your sentance makes perfect sense.

Also "non-artificial" method of contraception does little to stop the spread of aids.

jaci88 Posted on 6/4 11:32
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silence

BD.. i mean you find catholics better company than protestants and better manners! give that head a shake!!

Dr_Guy_Secretan Posted on 6/4 11:37
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silence

The catholics I know are mainly catholic.

They never get a wash.

gravy173 Posted on 6/4 11:40
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silence

cathy cats and proddy dogs, the old rhymes are the best

newholgate Posted on 6/4 11:49
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silence

Natural family planning = 98% effective. So my sentence did make perfect sense thanks!

Not sleeping with someone who has AIDS is the only way of ensuring you don't get it. Condoms can split T4Tomo.

Grove_Hill_Red Posted on 6/4 11:55
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silence

All the Geordies went to Rome
Just to see the Pope

All the Geordies went to Rome
Just to see the Pope

All the Geordies went to Rome
Just to see the Pope

And this is what he said

newholgate Posted on 6/4 11:59
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silence

JPII:

"Who's that team we call the Boro, who's that team we all adore"

--- Post edited by newholgate on 6/4 12:00 ---

Matelot Posted on 6/4 12:24
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silence

that Henry the 8th has alot to answer for i tell ya.

Boro_Gadgie Posted on 6/4 12:34
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silence

As a prod, I went to a state school where in RE we were told about the reformation and the reasons behind it, e.g. Martin Luther's differences with the RC church and issues of corruption as well as theological differences so I don't particularly like a lot of aspects of Roman Catholicism, but I could never disrupt a minute's silence.

If it were up to me there wouldn't be one and I will either remain seated and silent or will be in the concourse silently eating, drinking or reading my fanzine, but I could never draw attention to myself by disrupting a minutes silence.

In the Pope's defence, I think it is a bit harsh blaming him for AIDS in Africa. At the end of the day the responsibility is with those who originally contracted the disease through promiscuous lifestyles. They are surely more to blame.

--- Post edited by Boro_Gadgie on 6/4 12:42 ---

Boromart Posted on 6/4 12:58
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silence

This may be a great loss to the catholic community, but a large number of Boro fans, probably a majority, are not catholic. We should not be pressured into giving a mins silence for a man, that many feel, has helped perpetuate the death of millions of people by claiming that it is not right in the eyes of the catholic church to use a condom. And as others have already stated his protection of catholic priests abusing members of there congregation, very often young boys, is sickening.

He may have been doing what he thought was best, but Hitler thought he was doing what was best by exterminating the Jews based on his catholic beliefs. This may seem a harsh comparison, but I'm sure you get the idea, the Pope condemned millions to their death by failing to react.

The_Lizards_Jumpers Posted on 6/4 12:59
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silence

I dont really have an opinion on whether we should have a minutes silence for the Pope or not.

However what I do when the passing or someone hasn't touched me enough to want to observe a minutes silence is I think of the people whose passing has effected me, and have a moment of quiet contenplation (sp?) about members of my Family, friends etc.

Scrote Posted on 6/4 13:36
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

boromart - you are wrong

hitler was a pagan - his parents were catholic but he himself left the faith and thought it part of a bolshevik/jewish plot

plus the nazi movement as a whole was excommunicated in the 30s

as for your assertion that the pope was "a man, that many feel, has helped perpetuate the death of millions of people by claiming that it is not right in the eyes of the catholic church to use a condom" i would argue that he was in actual fact a man who saw the amount of strife and social decay brought about by promiscuity and sexual licentiousness and strove to prevent it spreading further

the simple and indisputable fact is that you can't (directly) get AIDS from sexual intercourse if you don't partake of it

if you go against the churches wishes and do partake then you can't turn round and blame the church when you decide not to bother with a condom 'cos it feels better or none are available or whatever

if i told you not to put your hand in a furnace but that if you did you shouldn't wear protective gloves whose fault would it be when you put your naked hand into the furnace and it got burned off??

the pope had no effect on people breaking rules about sex in the first place so to suggest he had an effect on contraceptive use is disingenuous at best and poisonous at worst

--- Post edited by Scrote on 6/4 13:37 ---

GillZean Posted on 6/4 14:02
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

Scrote,
Are you saying that of all the good Catholics you know, none of them use contraception, ever? As this is what the Pope preached.

I have many issues with the Catholic church, (but not Catholics per se) and the recently departed Pope in particular. I wouldn't disrupt a minute's silence for him, but would not partake in one.

As was discussed yesterday, he has no bearing on the Boro, and has been discussed ad nauseum we got to a stage where there was a minute's silence for everyone and his dog, which cheapens the whole thing.

Keep religion out of football, and out of life in general if at all possible.

Boromart Posted on 6/4 14:18
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

3 points scrote :-

An excert from Mein Kampfe "I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews. I am doing the Lord's work".

The concept that Hitler was indeed atheist, has been banded about for many, many years by the Vatican - it is nothing more than damage limitation.

The doctrines of the catholic church slated jews until the early 60s, and the Vatican actually backed Hitler and the Nazi party. Hitler was never personally excommunicated.

This truth about the Catholic Churches involvement in the third reich is now supressed by the Vatican to hide the shame that it at least partially sponsored.

2. You have nothing to say about all the catholic priests moved on and told to change there ways, after abuse claims were made?

3. "the simple and indisputable fact is that you can't (directly) get AIDS from sexual intercourse if you don't partake of it". True. Are you claiming that all catholics have sex entirely to pro-create? And if they choose to have sex because it is enjoyable then they deserve to catch AIDS? Because by turning his back on the use of the condom he effectively allowed millions to die.

Bobby_DazzIer Posted on 6/4 14:19
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silence

I think most right minded people would agree that catholics have more about themselves than protestants

shaun_84 Posted on 6/4 14:21
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

I'm a strict Buddhist but will sincerely stand for a minute's silence on Saturday in respect for the man.

GillZean Posted on 6/4 14:22
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silence

"more about themselves". Discuss.

Bobby, do you make a point of asking people what religion they are to save wasting your own time? Dick.

T4Tomo Posted on 6/4 14:33
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silence

"more about themselves". Discuss

Jim McDonald of Corrie used to say "What about you son?" in most episodes. Jim and therefore his son were Irish Protestants hence didn't have much about them, which is what Jimmwas refering to??
Its the best i can do.

Bobby - give your head a shake you muppett.

T4Tomo Posted on 6/4 14:34
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silence

"more about themselves". Discuss

Jim McDonald of Corrie used to say "What about you son?" in most episodes. Jim and therefore his son were Irish Protestants hence didn't have much about them, which is what Jimmwas refering to??
Its the best i can do.

Bobby - give your head a shake you muppett.

eiresonlyborofan Posted on 6/4 14:35
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silence

Boromart-

"And if they choose to have sex because it is enjoyable then they deserve to catch AIDS"

Would you really go near any bird with AIDS even with about 40 condoms on.

Scrote Posted on 6/4 14:57
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

gillzean - i'm not saying any such thing - in fact i'm close to saying the opposite - as far as i'm concerned people can do what they want - they then have to justify themselves to their God and reconcile what they do with what their faith teaches them to do

what i can't abide is people blaming the church or the pope for AIDS in africa based on his refusal to allow condoms/contraception when he also refuses to allow sex outside of the union of marriage but its perfectly ok to ignore that aspect

boromart - if i declared myself a boro fan aged 18 but later in life sat in the north stand with a NUFC shirt on and applaud the boro's opposition every week would you still call me a boro fan?

and the child abuse thing is far too complicated for this thread - if you want to start another one i'll try to put my thoughts across but it is a difficult subject - however the above re hitler being catholic applies to those who did the abusing - the fact that the true holy men couldn't comprehend what was happening has parallels with the problems experienced by the scout movement - do you condemn the good work done by those millions for the actions of a few evil people taking advantage??

Scrote Posted on 6/4 15:10
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

boromart - "3. "the simple and indisputable fact is that you can't (directly) get AIDS from sexual intercourse if you don't partake of it". True. Are you claiming that all catholics have sex entirely to pro-create? And if they choose to have sex because it is enjoyable then they deserve to catch AIDS? Because by turning his back on the use of the condom he effectively allowed millions to die."

again you are misinterpreting (deliberately??) what is said and then making a perverse paradigm shift to put your point across against all the evidence presented

firstly - i do not believe or expect all catholics to follow the churches rules to the letter - especially where lust is involved - the whole point of a forgiving God and the suffering of Christ was to allow us room for sin but also for redemption

however i also expect people to take responsibility for their actions if they DO decide to take on the responsibility of breaking the churches rules

can you answer the fairly straightforward question about your hand and the furnace? - who is responsible for your hand burning off?

the pope nor the catholic church are responsible for AIDS in africa or anywhere else for that matter

the pope didn't "allow" anyone to die - in fact he was vehemently opposed to people putting the death sentence on their own shoulders by having intercourse in a situation that would lead to AIDS

the fact that there are now people who were born with AIDS being at an age of sexual maturity is one that will cause the church many problems - but those problems were caused by a permissive society not by the church

shaun_84 Posted on 6/4 15:13
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

I think the pervert who shagged the monkey is to blame. (Probably not FACT.)

http://www.virusmyth.net/aids/news/namonkey.htm

--- Post edited by shaun_84 on 6/4 15:16 ---

Boromart Posted on 6/4 15:13
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silence

eiresonlyborofan "Would you really go near any bird with AIDS even with about 40 condoms on." Of course not, but people don't have 'I have AIDS' branded on there forehead. Would it be justice in the eyes of Pope JPII for me to have sex with my wife, and unknown to me she had AIDS?

"what i can't abide is people blaming the church or the pope for AIDS in africa based on his refusal to allow condoms/contraception when he also refuses to allow sex outside of the union of marriage" - Therefore your logic states that it is impossible to get AIDS once you are married? How does that work?

"if i declared myself a boro fan aged 18 but later in life sat in the north stand with a NUFC shirt on and applaud the boro's opposition every week would you still call me a boro fan?" - if this is associated with Hitler, then I'm afraid he was a catholic, the german soldiers uniform had 'In God We Trust' on it. soldiers were blessed before battle. He was no athiest, although its convenient for the Vatican to 'adjust' history to say that he was.

"and the child abuse thing is far too complicated for this thread.......do you condemn the good work done by those millions for the actions of a few evil people taking advantage??" Not at all, many priests are good people, however it is indicitive of the human race, greed, selfishness and abuse of power. This kind of 'moral desert' is intensified when money is invlolved, the catholic church and the vatican state is very, very rich.

--- Post edited by Boromart on 6/4 15:14 ---

tanned_nympho Posted on 6/4 15:14
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silence

god a wish everyone would just shut up about tha pope.

Bobby_DazzIer Posted on 6/4 15:16
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

Gillzean and Tomo - I take it from your uncouth responses that you are both of the protestant faith.

You only have to look at this thread to see what I am talking about. All the Catholics have been polite and warm while the protestants have been harsh and mean spirited.

Boromart Posted on 6/4 15:31
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silence

"again you are misinterpreting (deliberately??) what is said and then making a perverse paradigm shift to put your point across against all the evidence presented"

No Scrote, I just happen to have differant opinion than you. There is no evidence, there is no paradigm shift. I just see people dying and a guy that could save them, turning his back because they do not fit in with his personal moral view of the world we live in. That isn't a leader, that is a dictator.
It is extremely sad and appears more than a touch aloof to me.

"however i also expect people to take responsibility for their actions if they DO decide to take on the responsibility of breaking the churches rules"

But if it is OK to have sex within marriage, then that doesn't stop you catching AIDS.

"can you answer the fairly straightforward question about your hand and the furnace? - who is responsible for your hand burning off?" - Its completely irrelevant and flawed. All hot furnaces burn your hand, all sex does not give you AIDS.

"the pope nor the catholic church are responsible for AIDS in africa or anywhere else for that matter" - No they are not, but they had an opportunity to do something about it and save lives, that is an undeniable fact.

Question:- If you are the only witness to a 5 year old girl getting knocked over, and the driver speeds off, would you walk away because it is the girls fault for playing too close to the road?

To make it easier for you, I will interpret this, you would be the pope, the driver is an AIDS carrier, the little girl is a 17 year-old Ethopian girl, about to be condemned to a slow and painful death, because you didn't cause the accident.

--- Post edited by Boromart on 6/4 15:32 ---

--- Post edited by Boromart on 6/4 15:34 ---

Scrote Posted on 6/4 15:44
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

--- written before reading the above post - although some of the points are answered in here as well ---

well done boromart - you've managed to avoid all the questions and twist what i've written to suit what you want to believe

"Would it be justice in the eyes of Pope JPII for me to have sex with my wife, and unknown to me she had AIDS?" - who mentioned justice? certainly not me and i don't think i've ever seen the pope quoted as saying that - what you are trying to imply is that the pope is happy for people to be dead and dying which is not even worth arguing against - if you can't se how pathetic it looks you have my pity

"Therefore your logic states that it is impossible to get AIDS once you are married? How does that work?" - you also seem to have no understanding of how logic works but we'll let that pass for now and i'll amend all my earlier statements to the following:

"refraining from sex outside of marriage prevents AIDS if both parties in the marriage have done so" - this does not include AIDS transmissions by other means as it is not what we are talking about

wrt hitler - the analogy works (in a primitive manner) and the fact you haven't disputed it would seem to indicate you realise this and have no arguments against it - hitler's actions show he was not a catholic regardless of what he called himslef (although i'll accept that accusations of paganism are probably as innacurate)

on top of this his anti-semitism was supported throughout history by both the catholic and protestant religions at various points and has nothing to do with the recently deceased pope who more than any other sought to build bridges between ALL religions

as i have no idea about how the church distributes or hoards its wealth i cannot comment on how rich it is but i agree that money can be a cause of corruption and that the church should make more obvious efforts to distance itself from that source of possible evil - however as with any large organisation with a central HQ and a worldwide network money is a necessity

--- Post edited by Scrote on 6/4 15:46 ---

--- Post edited by Scrote on 6/4 15:47 ---

Scrote Posted on 6/4 16:02
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

""the pope nor the catholic church are responsible for AIDS in africa or anywhere else for that matter" - No they are not, but they had an opportunity to do something about it and save lives, that is an undeniable fact."

they DID do something about it but people chose to ignore them - you can't pick and choose which bits of the church's rules you want to disagree with - it is all or nothing

for arguments sake lets make the furnace a set of pots that could have beer in or could have poisoned beer in - i tell you not to drink from any of the pots but if you do then you are not to take the antidote to the poison

who is responsible if you drink from the pots but don't take the antidote after each drink?

Scrote Posted on 6/4 16:14
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

"Question:- If you are the only witness to a 5 year old girl getting knocked over, and the driver speeds off, would you walk away because it is the girls fault for playing too close to the road?

To make it easier for you, I will interpret this, you would be the pope, the driver is an AIDS carrier, the little girl is a 17 year-old Ethopian girl, about to be condemned to a slow and painful death, because you didn't cause the accident."

the interpretation is fundamentally flawed because you insist that the AIDS sufferers are suffereing because they follow the churches rules on contraception

in the instance above there is no contraceptive element so there is no scope for a direct reference to the real situation

in fact what you are saying is that once people have AIDS the church abandons them to die and this is wholly untrue - the church has many many people working with AIDS victims

it would work better if the witness knows the girl and has told her that she should not play in the road or she will be soundly beaten but that if she does she should not move out of the way of oncoming traffic (with the girl fully aware of the consequences of not moving)

if the girl disobeys the first instruction knowing it will result in her being beaten why does she not disobey the second knowing that it will result in her not being hit by the car?

T4Tomo Posted on 6/4 16:19
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

Bobby I'm just staggered by your small minded generalisation and bigotry.

There are both pleasant and unpleasant Catholics Protestants Jews Buddests Muslims etc and people of no religious persuasion.

You appear to have only met two small subsets of life, pleasant Catholics and unpleasent Protestants. I find that very hard to believe. I also find it hard to believe you haven't met anyone who is neither protestant or catholic.

however "You only have to look at this thread to see what I am talking about. All the Catholics have been polite and warm while the protestants have been harsh and mean spirited." is quite revealing - you like people who agree with your point of view, you don't like those that disagree with you.

For the record I'm from a Methodist family, but don't class myself as religious, more of an agnostic.

Boromart Posted on 6/4 17:29
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

"you've managed to avoid all the questions and twist what i've written to suit what you want to believe"
The only question I have not answered, is the irrelivent one about the Gloved hand and the furnace. You go on to slate my analgy of the girl and the hit and run driver, but it appears a far better analogy than your gloved one which is flawed on so many levels.

Like I said if I were a good catholic, and I got married and lost my virginity to someone I beleived to be a good catholic wife and I still catch AIDS, from my whore of a wife, then is that my own fault or the catholic churches? Oh let me guess its the wifes, even thought the catholic church tells me that the only way for safe sex is sex within marriage.

You are making a huge pressumption that all those who die in africa are premiscuous, and that is why they catch aids. I would suggest that a huge number of them do not, and actually catch AIDS due to a promiscuous husband or wife.

Due to poor education they need guidance and help to overcome this disease. The catholic church had that opportunity and took the easy way out - don't have sex outside of marriage. That my friend is a cop out.

"who mentioned justice? certainly not me and i don't think i've ever seen the pope quoted as saying that"
Justice may be a strong word, but that is what it boils down to. If you do as the chruch says then you will not get aids, any other course of action, then you have made your bed.... We will comfort you in your suffering, but if you had done as we said none of this wiould have happened (but it still might have anyway!).

"you also seem to have no understanding of how logic works but we'll let that pass"
I have Computer Science Degree, and 12 years working as an IT Consultant and IT Manager, I think I have a damn good understanding of logic. If the catholic churchs view is that abstinance or sex within marriage is the only way not to get AIDS, then that is entirely flawed logic. I am an individual human being and have not got AIDS, I am married and have never had an affair. If I follow the Vaticans advice, I could contract AIDS from my wife, if she has an affair, injects heroin from a shared needle etc. That being entirely out of my control makes the vaticans logic deeply flawed. In fact I would go so far as to say that some people will have been lulled into a false sense of security by it.

Oh and personal insults on my intelligance do not help your argument one bit, they only make you look like a maladjusted, immature individual with poor communication and social skills.

"actions show he was not a catholic regardless of what he called himslef" - Hitler was never excommunicated and followed the catholic faith up to the day of his death, as did many senior figures in the third reich. Just a question what if Hitler repented? Only 1 or maybe two being know for sure if he did.

"on top of this his anti-semitism was supported throughout history by both the catholic and protestant religions at various points and has nothing to do with the recently deceased pope who more than any other sought to build bridges between ALL religions" - I agree with this, he did try and build bridges between religions. However some would argue that organised religion itself is the problem.

Regarding what the catholic church has done for people in Africa suffering from the AIDS epidimec, yes they did do something, they could have done a lot more.

Do you truly beleive that if the Pope had stated that it was OK to use condoms and started an education campaign in Africa, on "Prevention of AIDS, wear a condom", that more people would have died? Yes a condom can split, there is no absolute security, but it is more secure than only having sex with someone that you hope/assume is not sleeping around.

Regarding my etheopian girl/hit and run scenario --> now who exactly is avoiding answering the question?

--- Post edited by Boromart on 6/4 18:39 ---

--- Post edited by Boromart on 6/4 18:39 ---

juninhos_ghost Posted on 6/4 17:42
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

i dont mind catholics one little bit

its REPUBLICANS i dont like

Scrote Posted on 6/4 18:38
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

boromart - "Therefore your logic states that it is impossible to get AIDS once you are married?"

and yet you claim not to be deliberately misinterpreting things

therefore it is only your logic that can be incorrect

at no point have i made any statement that even vaguely resembles the above quote and yet you presumably applied your processes of logic to my statements and that is what you came up with

i'm sorry if it offends you but that is NOT logic and if it is not deliberate then it only leaves ignorance as a reason (that IS logic) - it is not a personal insult but an observation borne out by the data presented

however i actually believe that you deliberatley misinterpreted what i was saying to add fuel to your argument and to make my point of view appear to be preposterous to the casual reader

some might be so unkind as to suggest that this may "make you look like a maladjusted, immature individual with poor communication and social skills"

as regards the question about the girl and the car - i have pointed out where and why it is flawed and have attempted to improve the analogy to make it have more relevence - something which you were not prepared to do with my original furnace analogy (which i agree was rather simplified) whilst you haven't answered wrt the poisoned beer

do you agree with the way i have amended the girl/car analogy and if not, why not??

as far as someone having sex with their wife goes that is beyond the scope of the argument we have had so far - and you are also bringing up the concept of blame which also hasn't been raised

for the record i'm not blaming anyone and i think the church would blame society as a whole from the top down rather than any individual caught up in the mess

i'm fully aware that the current plight in africa is far removed form how it was originally and the chances of ones wife having AIDS is higher than it has ever been but that in itself does not infer any blame on the pope or the church

either the pope/church was responsible for stemming the spread of AIDS in africa from its first inception or it is not responsible at all - you can't say that now the banks have burst the flood is the fault of the person who suggested shoring up the defences long before the waters started to rise

you wish to apportion blame 'cos you want to be able to point your finger at the church but at every level your argument falls down because there is always a "before" and ultimately the church has been consistently correct and cannot now change its rules because some magical number of people are affected - it can only seek to offer what support it can within its rule system

if it doesn't then it will just end up going down the same path as the rest of society - what was once seen as taboo is now accepted and the boundaries are always pushed further

if you believe in God and the devil then you can't embrace the devil even if the short term effects will be pleasing

Scrote Posted on 6/4 18:43
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

"Do you truly beleive that if the Pope had stated that it was OK to use condoms and started an education campaign in Africa, on "Prevention of AIDS, wear a condom", that more people would have died?"

do you truly believe that the pope would have been listened to?

Bobby_DazzIer Posted on 6/4 19:16
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

T4Tomo - your response does not surprise me. Methodists are the worst type of protestants and their influence in your upbringing is quite apparent.

--- Post edited by Bobby_DazzIer on 6/4 19:21 ---

Boromart Posted on 6/4 19:20
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

"and yet you claim not to be deliberately misinterpreting things
therefore it is only your logic that can be incorrect"

thats illogical, captain. Why claim that I am deliberately misinterpretting? To try and belittle my view point? Thats not a mature ways of discussion a theololgical issues.

The Vatican has long claimed that sex within marriage or abstinance are the only ways to avoid AIDS. If my wife and I were one consciece being then, I would accept that as logical. But it is a fact that we are not. Therefore I could catch AIDS from my wife, even though I have followed the vaticans rules on avoiding AIDS, and that is the crux of the problem, with the Vaticans logic. You cannot talk to everyone as one amorpheus being.

"at no point have i made any statement that even vaguely resembles the above quote and yet you presumably applied your processes of logic to my statements and that is what you came up with"

It is the vatican and organised religion in general I have a problem with, not you. My issues are not limited to what you have or have not said. Its to the effects of papel intervention (and organised religion in general) in peoples lives which disturbs me.

"i'm sorry if it offends you but that is NOT logic and if it is not deliberate then it only leaves ignorance as a reason (that IS logic) - it is not a personal insult but an observation borne out by the data presented"
Please, explain to me how the vatican can state that sex within the confines of marriage or abstinance are the only ways to stay AIDS free? Remember that my wife and I are two differant individuals and therefore addressing us both as one entity is flawed, as we will both have differant values, opinions and choices to make in life. You appear to have ignored the fact that I am only in control of myself not my wife, so the rules the vatican have delivered must be interpretted within the confines of the world we live in, not some utopean existance where we all act as one, that is why the logic behind the vaticans statements are fundemantally flawed.

"however i actually believe that you deliberatley misinterpreted" - I'll state it again Scrote, I am not deliberately misinterpretting your statements, this isn't about you, if that is a conveniant way for you to think you are right and ignore the world around you, then carry on with your head in the sand.

"as far as someone having sex with their wife goes that is beyond the scope of the argument we have had so far - and you are also bringing up the concept of blame which also hasn't been raised" my god, how can these not be relevant in this discussion? People can catch AIDS of there wife/husband and do. If you followed the Vaticans rule then you would think that it was impossible to do so. That is exactly the point, that you seem to have missed. People make decisions rightly or wrongly based on the rules the Vatican lays down. Poor decisions like this have cost lives. If lives are lost because of the rules the Vatican has dictated then blame should be firmly layed layed on the pope and the Vatican.

Like I said if I were a good catholic, and I got married and lost my virginity to someone I beleived to be a good catholic wife and I still catch AIDS, from my whore of a wife. I have just lost my life, because some guys in Rome told me that was the way to morally lead my life. The sad fact would be that there are 10s or 100s of thousands of people like me that with better advice could, no would have lived.

Q1) Hitler was never excommunicated and followed the catholic faith up to the day of his death, as did many senior figures in the third reich. What if Hitler repented?

"on top of this his anti-semitism was supported throughout history by both the catholic and protestant religions"
Its truly shocking that someone can hate another man due to his religion and we are only talking 40 or so years since this kind of bile was removed from everydayu teachings of the catholic church.

Q2) Do you truly beleive that if the Pope had stated that it was OK to use condoms and started an education campaign in Africa, on "Prevention of AIDS, wear a condom", that more people would have died?

theboydom Posted on 6/4 20:58
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

boromart/scrote

sorry to barge in on your discussion, but neither of you have mentioned the point this debate seems to hang on.

i don't think you and scrote are arguing about the same thing, because you seem to believe the church has a higher duty to save lives in this world, scrote believes they have a higher duty to their souls in the next. aids is a terrible disease, but it did not even exist 2000 years ago when the man whose teachings the catholic church's are based upon lived and preached. the christian church (in all forms) preaches that sex outside of marriage is a sin but aids has still spread. how can the church bear any blame for individuals actions when it's teachings would have prevented aids from spreading in the first place? you are asking it to change it's theology to suit society's whim. look at the mess that has got the anglicans in.......

btw boromart, you regard yourself and your wife as two separate people. christians beleive that not to be true
"I am only in control of myself not my wife, so the rules the vatican have delivered must be interpretted within the confines of the world we live in, not some utopean existance where we all act as one"

Genesis 2
24. For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh.

so in a true marriage you would know your wife as if she were you. just because you don't trust your wife not to give (or have given) in to her lustful urges doesn't mean we should all feel the same way. how does your wife feel about you wearing a condom in case you catch something from her?

that "utopian existence" you seem to find so ridiculous is exactly what the church are aiming for with their teaching

libardi Posted on 6/4 21:44
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

I am a Catholic but couldn't care less about the man. Perhaps when i was at primary School and indoctrinated into thinking that everything to do with Catholicism was cool - it isn't. Is this idea of a great catholic Boro community just trying to inject some kind of proxy Irish identity to the town? If so I would suggest a minute's Guinness necking before kick off. Surely we should identify more with a multicultural society rather than one repressive religion. Take people as they come. I would take a guess that many of the proclaimed Catholics on this board only ever attend mass half cut on Christmas Eve anyway. If you feel strongly about the Pope and his legacy show your respect by going to church

As for his footy heritage - briefly a Polish goalkeeper?

OPEO Posted on 6/4 21:55
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

Bobby dazz = Gerry Adams. Loathsome. And yes I was brought up as a protestant but lost any faith I had years ago. I believe In me.

Coleraine_boro Posted on 6/4 22:00
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

quote from juninhos ghost 'i don't mind cathoilics at all it's republicans i don't like'. well said sir.my sentiments exactly.

Bobby_DazzIer Posted on 6/4 22:06
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silence

But OPEO it could even be argued that the catholic terrorists were nicer than protestant ones. The protestant terrorists campaign targeted innocent catholic civillians whilst in the main (but not always) the IRA targeted what could be seen as "legitimate targets" ie British Government and Military targets.

Bobby_DazzIer Posted on 6/4 22:08
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silence

Why what is wrong with republicans? It is a legitimate political aim. just because you are republican does not mean you support terrorist means of achieving a republic. Not liking Republicans is prejudice.

Coleraine_boro Posted on 6/4 22:10
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

a lot of rubbish bobby_dazzler.the IRA murdered twice the number of civilians protestant terrorists did.bloody friday bombings,shankill rd bombing claudy bombing, harrods,enniskillen poppy day massacre coleraine(where i live .i remember the day well.my father was physically sick after helping to pick up body parts.6 civilians died)birmingham pub bombings.the list is endless.

--- Post edited by Coleraine_boro on 6/4 22:12 ---

--- Post edited by Coleraine_boro on 6/4 22:15 ---

bubblesmfc Posted on 6/4 22:14
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

"IRA targeted what could be seen as "legitimate targets" ie British Government and Military targets."

Tell that to the families in Warrington and Manachester who happened to be in the legitimate target of a shopping centre.

Bobby_DazzIer Posted on 6/4 22:18
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

Whilst I would unequivocally condemn the attacks it should be pointed out the targets of the Shankhill Rd bomb were the UDA terrorists who met above the fish shop and that the Birmingham bombing targeted a pub used by Soldiers.

Anyway I have no time for the IRA and shouldn't really be arguing these issues to support a flippant remark intended to continue to wind Tomo up about catholics being nicer than proddies.

Coleraine_boro Posted on 6/4 22:24
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

i have very good reasons for hating republicans bobby dazzler as during the troubles the IRA murdered 15 people i knew very well and they almost killed me in 1993.on saying that i have absolutely nothing against ordinary decent roman catholics.

--- Post edited by Coleraine_boro on 6/4 22:26 ---

Revol_Tees Posted on 6/4 22:24
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

I find this really, really irritating actually. In the last decade we've been forced to observe silences for Princess Diana, the Queen Mother and now the Pope. I can't think of any other non-football related examples, so I may be wrong, but why do some people deserve silent respect and not others? And more to the point, why are the only ones we ARE forced to remember always conservative, establishment figures?

While I obviously have compassion for the man as a human being, and respect those who wish to pay their own condolences, I also have to be honest and say that I f--king hate what the Pope stood for. People can talk about Thatcher all they want, and they're right, but whipser it quietly: Pope John Paul II's influential bigotry was arguably more devastating for the world's population than Maggie could even dreamt of being. The Catholic Church is a very powerful organisation and he ran it quite ruthlessly.

There are always more STD-related deaths in countries where abstinence is widely enouraged over contraception - that's a fact, as practically every study conducted on the matter has proved.

Contraception = "a culture of death" according to the Vatican. So no wonder George W. Bush will be attending the funeral, eh? Ronald Reagan was a great admirer of his right-wing Holiness too.



--- Post edited by Revol_Tees on 6/4 22:30 ---

Link: The Pope has blood on his hands

Boromart Posted on 6/4 22:29
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

"Genesis 2
24. For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh.

so in a true marriage you would know your wife as if she were you."
I do know my wife, as if she was me. However no one can ever be 100% certain in life. Affairs happen everyday.

"just because you don't trust your wife not to give (or have given) in to her lustful urges doesn't mean we should all feel the same way. how does your wife feel about you wearing a condom in case you catch something from her?"
Very amusing, of course I was talking hypotheitically.

The question still stands though,

"If the Pope had stated that it was OK to use condoms and started an education campaign in Africa, on "Prevention of AIDS, wear a condom", that more people would have died?"

Scrote - "do you truly believe that the pope would have been listened to?" YES, I do. A large number of people take the popes preachings as the word of god.

So Scrote, why don't you just answer the question straight, rather than with another question? Are you afraid that the only answer is obviously, YES. Therefore agreeing that the pope/vaticans lack of action has condemned 100s of thousands and possibly millions of people to death.

Do you think people would listen?

bluetitch Posted on 6/4 22:36
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

Questions:
1)What on earth is wrong with artificial contraception - a logical answer would be nice.
2)Am I the only one who is aware AIDS can be caught by other ways, not just by having sex.
3)There are other STD's that have been around much longer than AIDS - how many innocent people have been killed by those?
Statement - I would not be happy with a minutes silence at a match- I'm not happy with any that aren't directly connected to football.
I judge people for who they are, not for what they are.

Bobby_DazzIer Posted on 6/4 22:42
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

No coleraine, you have very good reason to hate terrorists not republicans. You seem to be suggesting that all republicans support terrorism thus slighting people like John Hughes and his republican colleagues in the SDLP who sacrificed their political well being for peace.

Would it be fair for somebody to hate all loyalists because some knew somebody killed by Jonny Adair?

Leedsclive Posted on 6/4 23:06
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

Bobby Dazzler's comments are beyond belief. I feel no sadness at all that because I'm not a Catholic he wouldn't want my company. Boo hoo!
I wouldn't dream of disrupting the minute's silence on Saturday but I object to being forced to respect someone that I didn't particularly respect. I believe a lot of his dogma did much harm. It would have made more sense to have a minute's silence for Jim Callaghan. He was after all PM of this country and someone who deserved it more in my view.
Let's keep minute's silences in football grounds for football people only.

rayparlourfanclub Posted on 6/4 23:17
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

''It would have made more sense to have a minute's silence for Jim Callaghan. He was after all PM of this country and someone who deserved it more in my view.''
But there would be no sense in a minutes silence for one of the worlds most important leaders?

Bobby_DazzIer Posted on 6/4 23:18
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

Jeez are you people really that stupid?

Boromart Posted on 6/4 23:18
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

Some figures from the UN -
- More than 28.1 million people are living with the disease in sub-saharan Africa. that is almost 3/4 of the world AIDS infections. Sub-saharan africa is almost entirely Catholic.
- 4.7 million South Africans are infected
- 30% of Botswanans are infected
- The Development Bank of Southern Africa forecasts that South Africa's population will contract by 2016 as annual AIDS-related deaths exceed births
- hundreds of thousands of orphans who lose at least one parent to HIV-AIDS
- In 1999 alone, an estimated 860,0000 children lost their teachers to AIDS
- South African AIDS deaths are expected to rise sharply from around 120,000 last year to an annual 635,000 in 2010, according to AIDS campaign group Love Life.

So many terrible sinners in such a small space, can it be true Scrote? How many of those people would have lived by using a condom. People do not abstain, it is human nature to have sex. It cannot be expected that people will keep it in there trousers. The current stance of the Catholic Church has resulted in the above figures. I am not saying they are entirely responsible or to blame. What I am saying is that that stance is not working, the Catholic church can stand by and twiddle its thumbs and say 'abstinance and marriage' - which in itself isn't a bad thing, or it can do something about it. I'll ask you again - How many of these people could be saved? Would a change in Vatican policy reduce these figures?

ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PAUL VI ON THE REGULATION OF BIRTH "to intend directly something which of its very nature contradicts the moral order, and which must therefore be judged unworthy of man, even though the intention is to protect or promote the welfare of an individual, of a family or of society in general. Consequently, it is a serious error to think that a whole married life of otherwise normal relations can justify sexual intercourse which is deliberately contraceptive and so intrinsically wrong. "

This kind of teaching is condemning millions of people and particularly poor, badly educated, Africans to death. It is wrong, full stop. That is the catholic churches view - and in my eyes is a terrible crime.

--- Post edited by Boromart on 6/4 23:19 ---

rayparlourfanclub Posted on 6/4 23:21
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

Thing is if these people were moral catholics aids would not have spread and if these people are so strongly catholic to taker every word the pope says as fact then the act of sex would only be done with partners after marriage, somebody the eprson truelly loves and trusts. The pope is not to blame for peoples immorality.

Scrote Posted on 6/4 23:25
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

boromart - hoisted by your own petard methinks

" "do you truly believe that the pope would have been listened to?" YES, I do. A large number of people take the popes preachings as the word of god. "

the same teachings which say no sex outside of marriage which would have prevented the spread of AIDS 20 years ago*

the analogy to the flood i mentioned earlier is quite apt

basically i think you are coming at this from an angle of anti-religiousness so any argument will do and you will bend the truth round it

i'm sure you're a decent bloke but i honestly believe that your argument on this is paper thin

you cannot say that the pope is at fault 'cos people listen to him when it is blindingly obvious that the AIDS epidemic in africa has been caused by people not listening to him

the fact that it has now got to the situation whereby married couples can contract AIDS from each other does not alter the fact that that was not always the case and that it would not be the case if people had listened to the pope 20 years ago



*20 years is a vague assumption - although i'm sure you will agree that a cut of date of the early 80s is about right wrt AIDS - if not then take it back as far as you want - at one point there was no AIDS then there was - and at that point if everyone had followed the church's teachings there would be no AIDS epidemic in africa

rayparlourfanclub Posted on 6/4 23:28
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

Scrote- I think weve got the same argument here. Its not the Popes fault aids is occuring in Africa from listening to him its quite the opposite.

moxzin Posted on 6/4 23:28
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

Scrote's got it bang on.

And I would suggest anyone looking at it from an impassive, objective and logical viewpoint can't help but agree with him.

If Catholic doctrine was followed to the letter in the first place, there would have been less proliferation of AIDS among Catholic communities in Africa. That it wasn't is no-ones fault, but it makes it ludicrous to blame the Catholic church thereafter for sticking to millennium-old doctrine.

How can you not praise the Catholic church for fundamentally giving good advice for not catching AIDS, and then damn it for giving it bad advice? Its hypocrisy in the highest level.

And Hitler was a Teutonic pagan. He delayed his suicide so that it fell on the pagan festival of Walpurgisnacht.

Guardian article, quote: "Hitler, rejecting Christianity, embraced instead the paganism of the early Germanic tribes. Their beliefs, both real and imagined, offered a basis on which any number of sinister concepts could be superimposed."

Link: Pagan

Boromart Posted on 6/4 23:30
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

1) PARIS, Oct 21 (AFP) - The European Commission has criticised the Vatican for suggesting condoms do not protect users against HIV, saying the assertion had no scientific basis and could worsen the global AIDS pandemic.

2) "Condoms are part of the solution. The condemnation of condoms is part of the problem," Poul Nielson, European Commissioner for development and humanitarian aid, said in a statement sent to AFP on Tuesday....."I rely on statements that are based on sound scientific evidence -- and we can demonstrate that condoms are the best way to prevent HIV infection," the statement quoted European Research Commissioner Philippe Busquin as saying."

3) "EU projects focussed on condoms' potential porosity and quality standards, and included surveys of infection transmission in couples and prostitutes... All the studies concluded that the male condom was an effective way of preventing the transmission of HIV, with an efficacy close to 100 percent when the condom is used appropriately."

4) "Relying on condoms is like betting on your own death," said Cardinal Alfonso Lopez Trujillo, the Vatican's spokesperson on family affairs, last week. He reiterated his opinion that condoms are too permeable to prevent the spread of HIV and AIDS, an opinion that Bishops and Cardinals are repeating across four continents. The World Health Organization immediately denounced this view, saying it was particularly dangerous while the world faces a pandemic that has already killed 20 million people. Scientific research by groups such as the U.S. National Institutes of Health has found "intact condoms... are essentially impermeable" to HIV

This kind of Vatican propaganda is effing shocking and shows that some blame must lay at the doors of the Vatican.

Scrote Posted on 6/4 23:40
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

bluetitch

1 - the rights and wrongs of artificial contraception as viewed by the catholic church are fairly well understood - basically you are preventing the possibility of new life against the natural order

whether or not you agree is up to you but if you decide to use contraception then you must reconcile that with any other beliefs you have (and personally speaking i believe the church will slowly move towards a slackening of the law for non-cathlolics over the next hundred years or so as they did with divorce although i could be wrong)

2 - the argument is specifically about contraception, AIDS and the church - to cloud it with other methods of AIDS transference would just leave us in a muddle - the fact that both sides seem to be arguing over the same things at least proves that it isn't a point scoring exercise - i think boromart is sincere in his beliefs but i think he is wrong and i'm sure he feels the same about me - open discussion is what makes this board so good

boromart - you say that it cannot be expected that people keep things in their trousers but that is the whole point of accepting the faith - if you decide to do what you want then you have to accept the consequences - it is the fundamental position of free will

if you decide to believe in fate or predeterminism then nothing makes a damn bit of difference anyway - only with free will can you make your own decisions - the church says that you have free will but you have to decide for yourself to abide by the rules of the church for that free will to grant you life everlasting

ThePrisoner Posted on 6/4 23:40
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

Boromart said "I do know my wife, as if she was me"

Well come and have a look at mine will you, 'cos I haven't got a flaming clue what she's about. If only she were a man.

moxzin Posted on 6/4 23:40
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

Okay, Boromart.

Do you agree that Catholic doctrine can be simplified as:

a) No sex before marriage
b) No sex outside marriage
c) No use of artificial contraception permitted?

If so, do you agree that if laws a) and b) were adhered to, there would be considerably less of an AIDS problem?

And if so, do you agree that laws a) and b) have obviously largely been ignored or broken?

Therefore, what makes you think that the Catholic holds so much power over option c), but not a) and b), arguably more fundamental doctrinal teachings?

Why, in your argument, have a) and b) been ignored and c) faithfully respected?

Does the Catholic Church have massive influence, or doesn't it?

Scrote Posted on 6/4 23:44
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

"This kind of Vatican propaganda is effing shocking and shows that some blame must lay at the doors of the Vatican."

so you accept from the above that condoms are "almost 100% safe" - NOT 100% safe

the vatican quote states that "you are betting with your life" - the odds may be 101/1 but that is still a gamble

basically - you are arguing that the "faithful" should be allowed to do what they want BUT that they should adheere to doctrine when it causes AIDS

go back and look at my amended girl/driver analogy and tell me where it is faulty...






--- and as an edit to the above - to paraphrase - condoms are NEARLY 100% effective IF the people using them are educated enough to use them properly

BUT

the uneducated in africa are the ones you want to use them

so at least 1% and probably more would contract AIDS if the church sanctioned condom use - when the figures are at the 28 million mark that is a lot of people

are you telling me that you would accept 280,000 deaths from AIDS?

if so would you have accepted that figure say ten years ago when it may have been there in the current situation

if so would you accept 28 million deaths in ten years time as long as people had been allowed to use condoms??

--- Post edited by Scrote on 6/4 23:49 ---

Boromart Posted on 6/4 23:48
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

"And Hitler was a Teutonic pagan. He delayed his suicide so that it fell on the pagan festival of Walpurgisnacht" - He did not delay his suicide to coincide with anything. The timing of his suicide was dictated by troops arriving in Berlin. It has long been a conveniant argument of catholics, that he was pagan. There is absolutely no proof to this, there are plenty of pictures of him at churches, and a Pagan dictator would not allow his soldiers to have 'in god we trust' on there uniforms.

I agree that 'if' the catholic world had stuck to the intial Vatican views on contraception then yes AIDS would not be the epidemic it is now. But this epidemic has been gathering steam for 20 years, and the horse has bolted and the Vaticans rules did not work, and continue not to work to this day. Abondoning these people is wrong. 28.1 million people FFS, its not working, the church could take the moral high ground, but allow people to use condoms, and it could certainly stop perputation lies about how effective condoms are.

your right to point out the apparant hypocrisy, that I am stating that they would listen to the pope if he said use condomns, but not listen regarding married sex and abstinance. The problem is in the real world people are motivated by lust. Does that make 28.1 million africans (and rising) a right off, just because they are lustful? If the pope said "condoms are OK, they will save your lives", what motivation would people have to ignore this? Very little.

I'll pose the question a fourth time, and see if anyone will give a straight answer - If the Pope had stated that it was OK to use condoms and started an education campaign in Africa, on "Prevention of AIDS, wear a condom to live", would less people have died? - Given that you accept that the horse has already bolted, and the scientific evidence in favour of condoms, and that humans (even catholicas) are horny, lustful things,most of the time.



--- Post edited by Boromart on 6/4 23:54 ---

Scrote Posted on 6/4 23:52
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

"I'll pose the question a fourth time, and see if anyone will give a straight answer - If the Pope had stated that it was OK to use condoms and started an education campaign in Africa, on "Prevention of AIDS, wear a condom to live", would less people have died? - Given that you accept that the horse has already bolted, and the scientific evidence in favour of condoms."

my answer is NO - over time the same number of people will die as have died basically because people like yourself will always shout for personal freedoms over moral obligations

the church tries very hard to give succour to those that are suffering but at the end of the day the choice is with the individual - the churches laws are made and are either known or not known

if they are known and ignored then it is not th echirches fault - if they are not known then again - it is not the churches fault

Scrote Posted on 6/4 23:55
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

also - wrt hitler - i will accept that he was not a pagan

BUT - just by declaring himself to be roman catholic doesn't make him one - my analogy with the jawdee boro fan holds

hitler was not a catholic

Boromart Posted on 7/4 0:05
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

"my answer is NO - over time the same number of people will die as have died basically because people like yourself will always shout for personal freedoms over moral obligations"

I'm sorry that has gone way over my head, please enlighten me, where these 28.1 million people (and growing) who will die from this disease will be offset, by the world having better catholic morals.

I would suspect the only morals that are in question here are to do with having the choice over creating/not-creating a life. Are you in fact arguing that the 28.1 million people will be replaced by more than 28.1 million children that will be born because the parents did not use a condom? that does not even out the suffering, pain and distress in my book, and I would love to see some kind of formula to prove this. As was previously stated in south africa, AIDS mortality rates will very soon be greater than the birth rate. A shrinking population. Other African countries are approaching the same issues, and many of the children now being born in those countries will not procreate as they will die before they reach sexual maturity.

Boromart Posted on 7/4 0:09
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

"the uneducated in africa are the ones you want to use them
so at least 1% and probably more would contract AIDS if the church sanctioned condom use - when the figures are at the 28 million mark that is a lot of people"

It is not just sanctioning condom use I asked for but also an education program. Of course the 2 would go hand in hand. One doesn't need to be literate to understand how to use a condom. You just need a banana demonstration.

fluteloop Posted on 7/4 0:10
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

I've been reading this post from the beginning and have a couple of thoughts, most of them have already been posted.
Scrote, I have to say if the Pope had said the artificial contraception was fine then it would have helped reduce the rate that Aids has spread.

However fundamentally i agree with what you are saying in the sense that if the HIV positive catholic people of Africa had followed what the church taught then they would probably would not have contracted the disease. At the end of the day its not just Catholics in Africa that have aids, so to the none catholics of Africa would it really matter what the Pope said.

Boromart, the Pope has a belief of faith so deep that me or you probably do not understand. Why should he have gone against what the church has been teaching for 2000 years and what so deeply believed was right.

At the end of the day like mox said you cannot just take c) without taking a) and b) aswell.

Boromart Posted on 7/4 0:19
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

then he should have kept shtum on this issue, and vatican priest should not have spouted lies about condoms.

JSawyers200 Posted on 7/4 0:50
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

I would like to answer the original question of a minutes silence.

NO.

Would piss too many people off.

If the whole Boro crowd was Catholic then it would be a different story but that is not the case.

Save it for the churches.

bluetitch Posted on 7/4 0:51
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

Scrote - I can truly understand what you mean - even though I'm somewhat confused with your user name. I was brought up as a Catholic but after going to church when I was young and seeing men with their second wives (usually their secretaries), seeing young people whose parents were divorced , seeing the happy families when going to church and the after effects of wife going home, husband to the pub, having to put up with my friend who I think the world of wanting to preach to me on a girlie night out - to a restaurant- and being preached to - smacks to me of hypocrisy.

fluteloop Posted on 7/4 0:59
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

bluetitch thats exactly the point. Some people who are attend the church (i was brought up a catholic and went to chrch every sunday with my parents) are hypocritical. However thats exactly what the Pope is not and must be respected for that. If he had came out and said condoms were fine then he would have been a hypocrite.

The future pope does however face a very tough decision when it comes to artificial contraception. The thousands of babies born with HIV who may never have had sex are now starting to reach sexual maturity.

Revol_Tees Posted on 7/4 1:11
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

Scrote - I have admiration and respect for your passion about the subject, and your spirited defense of the Vatican, but with all due respect, I still think your conclusions are a bit bonkers: "over time the same number of people will die as have died basically because people like yourself will always shout for personal freedoms over moral obligations." Well, I've never heard that one before!

Of course I'm not saying the AIDS epidemic is all the Vatican's fault, and I know for a fact that Catholic organisations in Africa do MASSIVE work to alleviate the suffering of people affected by it. But hell, I think even a lot of Catholics would accept that it has to bear some responsibility. There was an article in The Times yesterday by a Christian who admitted that in these circumstances it was worth endorsing the "immoral" use of contraception purely for the greater moral good of immediately saving lives by preventing the spread of AIDS.

Putting moral questions to one side, I'm more interested in the whole "abstinence versus contraception" debate. Here's a FACT: abstinence programmes have a proven track record of failing to reduce the spread of STDs; in fact, where abstinence is promoted, STDs are more rampant than anywhere. Positive promotion of contraception, on the other hand, has a proven track record of reducing STDs. It doesn't take much research to figure this out, but Unicef and the British Medical Assocation (to name just two organisations) have conducted international studies and both arrived at this rather obvious conclusion.

One Unicef report from a few years ago concluded that the best way to reduce the spread of STDs was this: "The underlying reason for success has been the combination of a relatively inclusive society with more open attitudes towards sex and sex education, including contraception. Requests for contraceptives are not associated with shame or embarrassment ... [and] the media is willing to carry explicit messages about them which are designed for young people."

My problem with the Pope and his cronies was that they stood resolutely opposed to any such inclusive, open-minded society which might just have reduced the number of people affected by AIDS. And if I may use punk rock terminology, I think those guys at the top are a bunch of f-cking bigots for being so dogmatic about it.

Anyway, that's the last I'm saying on the matter. Something tells me I won't change your mind, and you probably won't change mine, so I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree ...

--- Post edited by Revol_Tees on 7/4 1:15 ---

ste_north_stand Posted on 7/4 1:17
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

I'm not catholic or indeed religious but i had a lot of respect for the Pope and regardless of whether there should or shouldn't be a minutes silence i will observe it properly as should everyone in the stadium should.

bluetitch Posted on 7/4 1:17
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

BUT CONDOMS ARE FINE!?
Can I assume that you're male - do you realise HOW many women have abortions simply because they can't cope with having another baby?

fluteloop Posted on 7/4 1:27
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

bluetitch, i fully understand where you are coming from and i for one are not going to preach on the moral rights or wrongs of condoms. Thats for the individuals concerned. The major problem is the lack of education in the developing world. I still believe regardless of what the vatican says there are people in Africa who don't fully understand how aids is spread. Educating these people on sexual health has to be the main priority and then they can decide what they morally think is right.

p.s im very tired and may not be making that much sense:)

--- Post edited by fluteloop on 7/4 1:29 ---

Scrote Posted on 7/4 3:09
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

was the church resposible for all the people who contracted AIDS in africa yesterday?

the day before?

the day before that??

how about if we take it back 40 years before AIDS - day by day

can someone give me the date as to when the church became responsible for the spread of AIDS in africa??

the problem as far as i see it is that people are desperate to find someone to blame other than themselves and the church is an easy target

in all honesty are you telling me that you would not be finding someone to blame if there were 280000* AIDS victims today rather than 28 million?

and are you honestly telling me that the 280000 wouldn't become 28 million over time?

yes it may take longer for the casualties to mount up but they would do none the less and the only difference would be that the church would no longer be viable - but then that would suit some i'd expect...

moxzin got it spot on with his a b c - you can't disregard some but use the others accuse the church - it is insane




*the 280000 figure is derived from an assumption that "nearly 100%" = 99% - i accept that it isn't the correct figure but it makes the matchs easier for demonstration purposes

even if it is 99.999999% you still end up with a number of people contracting AIDS through sexual intercourse whilst using a condom - which you want the church to tell them is safer than the 100% safety of no sex at all

Boromart Posted on 7/4 9:18
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

The plain facts of the matter are.

1. Millions of people are dying through AIDS, especially in Africa.
2. The Vaticans argument is and has been forever, that contraception is wrong, and sex outside of marriage is wrong. If this was adhered to from the start then there would be no AIDS pandemic.
3. The vaticans view on condoms existed before AIDS, yet AIDS still spread, even with the threat of other STDs. Peoples lust was not controlled by the Vaticans views. It failed.
4. Over the last 2000 years, the catholic faiths interpretation of the Bible, as laid down by the Vatican has changed on hundreds, even thousands of subjects to reflect the changing world we live in. In fact the latest view on the use of contraception was only introudced in about 1968.
5. Members of the Vatican have on occasions spouted lies regarding the 'lack of' protection offered by condoms.
6. The promotion of condom use and education on STDs is a proven protection from AIDS.
7. Abstinance and sex within marriage is a proven failure in the control and reduction in AIDS.

All the catholic church would have to do to save millions of lives is state that. 'The use of condoms is wrong, as it is suppressing possible life, and making man the deciding factor in the introduction of a new life not God. However it is accepted that sexually transmitted disease and the devistation it has brought is a far greater evil. The use of the lessor evil of condoms is therefore sanctioned as long as the adults repent after its use.

The catholic church keeps its moral high ground, and we reduce the number of people being killed by this disease.

Is this too simplistic a view?

--- Post edited by Boromart on 7/4 9:41 ---

red_rebel Posted on 7/4 9:55
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silence

Scrote:

One of the problems though is that the Vatican does not just hold sway over the morality of contraceptive choices for its own individual followers.

It also has direct influence over the policies of governments and charities that work with millions of people who take no guidance whatsoever from Rome but are nevertheless subject to the pernicious effect of its policies on the ground.


The Vatican is actively trying to deny free access to contraception to millions of people outside their faith but inside their sphere of influence.

The Church has considerable power at the UN and is not afraid to wield it. Last year it announced it would not donate its annual £2,000 pledge to UNICEF, the UN's children's fund and also announced that it "felt duty-bound to warn the Catholic faithful" about UNICEF's alleged advocacy of birth control and abortion in its family planning work.

Since a significant part of UNICEF’s income is from private donations and sales of greeting cards through RC institutions this had a direct and detrimental effect.

The Vatican was holding a very important charity that is active in some of the poorest parts of the world to ransom.

In imposing their political will and morality of birth control on people in considerable poverty Rome often finds itself in indefensible positions.

It may shock some that the Vatican finds it objectionable that where mass ra pe is an instrument of war, women have access to medical treatment - including the morning after pill - that would prevent pregnancy.

But JP II exhorted raped Bosnian women not to have abortions but instead "to accept the enemy" and make him "flesh of their flesh."

The church took a similar line in Rwanda.

Unfortunately, this kind of pressure is the rule, not the exception. The Vatican is increasingly involved in policy-making arenas like the UN and uses its non member permanent observer status and its clout as a provider of humanitarian assistance to extract conformity to its anti-family-planning agenda.

If it wants the influence the Vatican should apply to be a full member state and pay its full dues instead of making - or withholding - voluntary contributions.

GillZean Posted on 7/4 10:46
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silence

Come on bobby Dazzler, where's your comeback?

If we lived in an ideal perfect world, where people didn't have naughty thoughts and urges, and only had sex within marriage to procreate, then the Pope's views would be fine.

However, this is not the case. It's about time they woke up to this, as Boromart said more eloquently higher up.

Matelot Posted on 7/4 10:52
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silence

If some of the things that have been said about my religion and church here-had been said about islam or the jewish faith it would be pulled a long time ago.

An old man who was a decent honest leader to 1.1 bilion people has died, he did his best to guide his people to the way he belived God had guided him.

Can we draw a line under it and move on please? At least we wait until we have a new pope then we can have the Catholic church cause of all the problems in the world debate ?

Bobby_DazzIer Posted on 7/4 10:54
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silence

Comeback from what?

TheMerryPloughboy Posted on 7/4 10:58
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silence

The "bigot" rears its ugly head in some of the comments on this thread. FFS. The "lets not have a minutes silence because some people might not observe it" argument is pathetic. Is that how some of you live your lives. Good grief. Even the tolerent and good natured "fans" of Chelsea managed to observe the silence.
But the Boro couldn`t ????
Sad.

GillZean Posted on 7/4 11:08
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silence

Bobby,
It's not just aeroplanes that go over your head, is it?

Boromart Posted on 7/4 12:08
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silence

Some very, very interesting points red_rebel. I've often wondered why the Vatican is an 'independant country', and what power and influence they gain from that status.

--- Post edited by Boromart on 7/4 12:09 ---

sandancer Posted on 7/4 12:29
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silence

He was a great man who deserves to be respected and if a minute silence is the way to show it then fair enough. I understand he had no connection with the IRA so there should be no trouble. Hello Hello we are the Billy Boys!

Boro_Gadgie Posted on 7/4 12:35
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silence

I do find it a bit harsh that a man who was celibate is blamed for a disease that is largely sexually-transmitted.

Scrote Posted on 7/4 12:50
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

boromart - "However it is accepted that sexually transmitted disease and the devistation it has brought is a far greater evil."

which authority says it is a greater evil?

what you need to understand is that what happens in this life - according to the church - has ramifications in the next

do you accept that sex outside of marriage is evil?

red_rebel - this particular debate started after boromart compared the pope to hitler and accused him of being actively responsible for the deaths of millions of people - that is utter hogwash no matter what your feelings on the church and its power are

what boromart is saying is that the people of africa should be allowed to sin to make up for the fact that they have already sinned (put very simplisticly) - that shows a huge lack of understanding of the catholic religion

zaphod Posted on 7/4 12:57
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silence

I think the Pope was a decent (certainly not a great) man trapped inside a rigid system. It's virtually impossible for the Roman Catholic Church (even a Pope) to admit it gets doctrine wrong, because it undermines the (ridiculous) doctrine of papal infallibility, which is the foundation of the authority that the church claims. Hundreds of years had to pass before the Roman Catholic Church decided to scrap services in Latin. 450 years ago people were being executed for reading the Bible in English; the last strand of that policy of bolstering Church authority by preventing the faithful from understanding what the Bible says etc. didn't disappear until the mid 20th Century. It will probably take as long for the anti-contraception doctrine to disappear - and in the meantime, the majority of Catholics will ignore it.

The doctrine of opposing contraception is patently erroneous: it has no basis in the teachings of the Bible and is not even internally logical (i.e. if it is wrong for some unfathomable reason to prevent the creation of life, then all forms of contraception, natural or otherwise, must be immoral), but because an infallible Pope promulgated it, it cannot be changed by anyone, even another Pope.

I'd observe a minute's silence for him, out of respect for the feelings of others, not because he did any substantial good. He was good at PR, but that's probably all anyone in that position could do.

GillZean Posted on 7/4 13:01
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

Scrote,
I think the point is that very few Catholics live within the doctrines of the Catholic faith. If you do, good for you.

To my mind the Catholic church has targetted Africa. If they set up churches and preach that contraception is wrong, people will not use condoms, hence the spread of AIDS. Fine, if they stop having sex then it wouldn't have spread, but the point is people do have sex, and even the Pope must have been aware of this. He didn't directly speak to these people, but the missionaries put his views in place, as the Pope's is meant to be God's voice, isn't it?

janplanner Posted on 7/4 13:21
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

a minutes silence at middlesbrough football club, should be for those directly connected to mfc, former players, managers, fans etc.

not for heads of state, politicicans, or victims of natural disasters etc, that have no real link to the football club.

in my opinion. the minutes silence is losing it's significance, because it's happening too often.

so no minutes silence for the pope.

--- Post edited by janplanner on 7/4 13:27 ---

Buddy Posted on 7/4 13:26
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silence

Sorry, I've given up on the last twenty posts or so of this, but can I ask another analagous question which I hope won't be dismissed as irrelevant.

If someone in the 18th century instructed his followers to march along the Great North Road, and continued to do so every year until the present, are we saying that he is still not to blame for the fact that in the last fifty years or so thousands have been run down by fast moving motor cars? After all, his instruction was there first, and the change in circumstance should have no bearing on that, nor should he adjust his instruction to take account of it.

Also, is Boromart's quote of the encyclical made at 23:18 correct? Can somebody confirm to me that in effect it says "dogma over welfare at all times"?

Boromart Posted on 7/4 13:35
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

Th hypocriciy of the popes position is there in black and white. By abstaining from sex, he is in fact taking away the chance of life, that is, apparantly, gods choice not his. Why is it OK for him (or in fact any other catholic) to make a decision on life, i.e. abstinance, but it is not OK for others to use a condom? He is gifted with genitalia but chooses not to use them to procreate, taking the decision out of the hands of god.

speckyget Posted on 7/4 13:42
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

Can't comment on that particular quote Buddy, but can confirm the Catholic Church's teaching that corporeal welfare is second to spiritual welfare. Hence the traditional view that a choice between saving mother or baby during childbirth should favour the child (chance at salvation through baptism).

Not saying it's right or wrong, but if you buy into Catholicism you're not joining a University LiberalHumanism Soc.

Scrote Posted on 7/4 13:44
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

gillzean - i've not claimed to live wholly within the doctrines of the faith but if i go against the church's teachings i won't turn round at a later date and blame the church for the consequences

what i fail to understand is how people like boromart can blame the church for the plight of AIDS victims in africa because it has not just changed its rules to allow people to do what they please

Boromart Posted on 7/4 13:47
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

The quote was:-

ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PAUL VI ON THE REGULATION OF BIRTH "to intend directly something which of its very nature contradicts the moral order, and which must therefore be judged unworthy of man, even though the intention is to protect or promote the welfare of an individual, of a family or of society in general. Consequently, it is a serious error to think that a whole married life of otherwise normal relations can justify sexual intercourse which is deliberately contraceptive and so intrinsically wrong.

I have not mentioned the quote "dogma over welfare at all times".

The ecyclical can be found in the link if you have 2 hours to read all the sub-clauses.

--- Post edited by Boromart on 7/4 13:48 ---

Link: Encyclical Regulation of Birth

Boromart Posted on 7/4 13:51
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

what I fail to understand Scrote, is how the catholic church can spread mis-information to stop people using a device that will protect there lives, and allow there children to grow up in a family rather than as an orphan in a hospital before also succumbing to AIDS.

If the catholic church sees it as its place to make a ruling on this, then it has to stand up to the consequences of its actions. If they feel justified that they are protecting the morals of the world we live in, then fine, but that makes them accountable.
There morals and interpretations have been WRONG, VERY WRONG in the past, i.e. the anti-semitism which existed until only 45 years ago.

The Vatican is nothing more than a body that is interpretting 'holy scriptures'. That interpretation is made by humans, who catholics beleive are fallable, sinful at birth, and are fighting a constant battle against sin. The Vatican is rich, very rich. money = power = corruption. For the sake of all the catholics in the world I hope your 'chosen' interpretters are leading you down the right path, because from where I am sitting a heavy price is being paid for your faith.

Maybe in 20 years time catholics will be embaressed by these laws, and mass death in africa, just as catholics are embaressed by the anti-semitism which existied in there doctrines until the 1960s.


--- Post edited by Boromart on 7/4 14:00 ---

Scrote Posted on 7/4 13:52
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

boromart - as far as i'm aware the pope didn't have a wife - so no hypocrisy - or are you just being fatuous as you grasp for straws?

buddy - your analogy presupposes a great deal but for arguments sake i would liken it to the orange marches in NI - how many people have been run over there? - the civil authorities would have the responsibility to ensure that the religious devotees were not harmed if they didn't make adequate provision for the march when they expanded the road

Buddy Posted on 7/4 13:59
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

No, that was my wording attempting to capture the essence of the encyclical.

Scrote - not good, because there is no preventive measure that can be taken once HIV infection has taken place, yet the teaching forbids the preventive measures that do exist.

OK then, let's forget analogy and do straight questions. Do you think it is helpful for the church to refuse to adjust its dogma even though the world has changed so fundamentally in the time since Jesus of Nazareth was hoofing it round the Middle East?

Boromart Posted on 7/4 14:09
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

Scrote - "or are you just being fatuous as you grasp for straws?". If you want to debate this, at least do it with some maturity instead of trying to belittle statements. I am not being fatuous or grasping at any straws.

If the Vatican is going to use the argument that it is gods decision when children should be born, not mans. Then the pope is a mortal man and should have seeked a wife and had the opportunity to breed. By not doing this he has taken the decision out of gods hands.

It just seems one rule for one, and one rule for another. Not very fair, and since this is to do with morals, then fairness is at the very centre of the issue.

--- Post edited by Boromart on 7/4 14:10 ---

Scrote Posted on 7/4 14:10
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

buddy - what i personally believe and what the church teaches is not necessarily the same but i will accept that when it comes to my last judgement i am solely responsible for my actions

i can't turn round and say that as everyone else was doing it and it was socially acceptable that i should be excused for ignoring the church

from theboydom on the similar thread a few days ago

"To put it bluntly, the Catholic Church is in the business of saving souls. To preach a message that sexual immorality is ok if it saves your life in this world is anathema if it loses you your eternal life in the next."

and as far as the people being run down by cars go i would say that the drivers are responsible for the deaths - so NO - the religious founder would have no blood on his hands

red_rebel Posted on 7/4 14:14
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

Scrote:

For me the issue is not what the devout do, nor what the church tells the devout to do. That is a personal moral choice.

For me the issue is what the church tell people who do not even subscribe to its teachings what to do.

By pressurising governments and charities in developing nations not to promote condoms or family planning education they are doing exactly that: imposing their morality on people not in a position to politically resist.

They negatively influence aid programmes developed to benefit all the people in these countries, not just those that are practicing catholics.

By opposing birth control and condoms they are actively contributing to the problems of over population and AIDS.

There are stories of the catholic church in Southeren Africa not only saying condoms do not protect people from Aids but actually SPREAD it. This is obviously a blatant porky.

Are you aware of a dissident 'liberal' RC campaign called 'See Change'? They are well informed on this and run a decent web site with plenty of well sourced info on the condom issue.

Scrote Posted on 7/4 14:16
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

ok boromart you are not being fatuous - you just have no understanding of the catholic faith and are arguing from a point of ignorance - is that better??

there is no law which says a man has to take a wife - to suggest otherwise undermines any other argument you are presenting based on that supposition

you have just called the (recently deceased) leader of my faith a hypocrite based on a (knowingly?) false premise and expect it to stand without me querying it - and you accuse me of a lack of maturity???


--- and what has morality to do with "fairness" ---

--- Post edited by Scrote on 7/4 14:18 ---

Buddy Posted on 7/4 14:19
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

Supplementary - can anyone tell me the source of the church's teaching regarding contraception? Was it something Jesus said or something made up afterwards?

Buddy Posted on 7/4 14:22
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

The Pope's will requests that all his personal notes be burned. That's a bit peculiar isn't it?

Link: News

Boromart Posted on 7/4 14:27
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

I did not call the ex-leader of your faith a hypocrit, I called some of the position of pope hypocritcal, in that it is a position of selibacy. That is a form of contraception, and according to catholic teachings is wrong, oh unless your the pope.

If I am arguing from a point of ignorance in your world, then I think as an athiest you are arguing entirely from a point of in my world. In my world life on earth is of utmost importants. In yours it obviously isn't.

Like I said, maybe in 20 years time catholics will be embaressed by these laws on contraception, and the mass death in africa, which has ballooned due to some of its teachings. Just as some catholics are now embaressed by the anti-semitism which existied in there doctrines until the 1960s.

Do you have no comments on the possibility of corruption in the vatican and hidden-agendas to the laws they create?

--- Post edited by Boromart on 7/4 14:29 ---

Scrote Posted on 7/4 14:40
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

whether you meant it or not you quite clearly called the pope a hypocrite but i'll let that pass as i can accept that the written word on a message board can often be difficult to phrase exactly as you'd want

but so far you have said that all men have urges which is why the AIDS virus spread despite the churches teachings - abstention from sex is not a legitimate choice for those in africa but when the pope (a man with the same urges?) does it it suddenly becomes a viable form of contraception?

again - if you don't understand the church's stance on contraception then don't get involved in an argument about it

T4Tomo Posted on 7/4 14:43
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

shoot me down in flames if you think I'm wrong (i'm sure someone will, but the catholic line is tat every sperm is sacred (see monty pythons meaning of life)meaning that masturbation and procreation for pleasure (i.e. using contraception) is out.

I think it all stems from a mis-translation of a parable about spilling your seed. Don't throw oat seeds onto stoney paths became thou shalt not tommy tank or put thy woman on the pill.

or something.

boromart - celibacy doesn't contravene this, its encouraged for Popes I believe.

Scrote Posted on 7/4 14:43
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

red_rebel - in the eyes of the church we are all going to have to face a final judgement - the souls of non-believers are just as important to God as those of the faithful

TheMerryPloughboy Posted on 7/4 14:46
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

Just been on the news. 5 million people have filed past the remains of the pope. They had to stop people queing last night. The people of Rome have been asked to open their homes to the millions of pilgrims.
Tommorow will see one of the largest funerals ever held.
This hatred for catholicism is shameful.
Let the man rest in peace.

Boromart Posted on 7/4 14:49
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

I understand the churches, stance, I just happen to things that it is flawed and dangerous. I also think the vatican is corrupt, has its own agendas and is deliberately misinterpreting the bible. The death of 28million african certainly is not in the spirit of christianity.

Read this:-
"Bernard Cardinal Law, under whose administration the molestation and r@p£ of hundreds of Massachusetts children went virtually unchecked, is now leading a life of comfort and authority right in the Vatican. His bio on the Vatican's website doesn't mention his immoral, unethical, and in the minds of some, criminal behavior. It doesn't mention that under his watch the lives of hundreds of children and their families were destroyed, their futures irrevocably harmed. He is a holy man.",

And you trust these people?

Link: coverup

Buddy Posted on 7/4 14:51
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

I think you need to substitue "hatred" with "questioning" there TMP, at least in some cases.

Can't be that Tomo, Jesus explains that one straight away as being about people who won't listen. Who may very well be wnakers, but not the point of the story.

Boromart Posted on 7/4 14:52
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

boromart - celibacy doesn't contravene this, its encouraged for Popes I believe.

That is exactly my point. Why encourage it? Surely that is taking it out of gods hands. Encouraging celibacy is a form of contraception. Why allow this, nay encourage it for some special people?

--- Post edited by Boromart on 7/4 14:53 ---

red_rebel Posted on 7/4 14:55
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

Scrote:

religion and morality are personal things. They can not be imposed on 'non-believers'. That is fundementally wrong.

tanned_nympho Posted on 7/4 14:58
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

the pope=gone and glad of it
end of topic.

TheMerryPloughboy Posted on 7/4 15:02
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

Like I said. Hatred.

T4Tomo Posted on 7/4 15:06
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

well it might not be that parable but its definately from something to do with spilling seeds that was mistranslated from one of the very early version of the bible.

ploughboy, I think you are misinterpreting a questioning attitude as hatred, I certainly don't hate either the pope or catholics. I just find some parts of catholic faith a little difficult to agree with. Its quite an odd faith based around guilt and confession.

Buddy Posted on 7/4 15:06
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

Everyone?

zaphod Posted on 7/4 15:08
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

Buddy, the Catholic doctrine of banning contraception is an edict of the church. It has no basis in Biblical teaching and is rejected as unfounded by all Protestant churches.

T4Tomo, the story about spilling seed referred to Onan & was interpreted sometimes as a ban on masturbation. If you read the story, that isn't the point of it (it's about disobedience of God's will).

As a Protestant Christian, I find it very difficult to post sensibly on this sort of thread, because on the one hand, there are many Catholics (including the Pope) that I respect & consider to be my brothers & sisters in Christ, but at the same time I find the Catholic Church as an institution to be riddled with misleading & damaging doctrines, as well as the much-publicised cover-ups of misbehaviour by the hierarchy.

--- Post edited by zaphod on 7/4 15:21 ---

Buddy Posted on 7/4 15:09
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

Thank you zaphod. Makes the argument a bit less tenable that, doesn't it?

HUMBERRED Posted on 7/4 17:41
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

If the club decides to have a minutes silence I will honour it as would the vast majority of decent people. I don't get this Boro being a Catholic club idea though. My father is a Protestant Scot who loathes Celtic with a vengeance which is par for the course in football terms.....Most of the Boro fans I know are non Catholic. Doesn't mean that any of us would disturb a minutes silence for a man of piece though.

moxzin Posted on 7/4 20:11
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

Today in school we were talking about the Pope, and someone said, "Oh the Pope, he's the guy that killed about 20 million people." A lot of people seemed to nod sagely and mumble in agreement. I think its very sad that this over-simplified view of the whole situation, that he is somehow on a par with mass murderer, a modern Stalin or Hitler, seems to not be exclusive to the extremist fringe, but, mainstream opinion.

Buddy Posted on 7/4 20:14
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

Does it not make you wonder if there might be something to it?

moxzin Posted on 7/4 20:15
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

Yes, of course.

But today I also saw a poster which said: "If 40 million people think a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."

chris_white_22 Posted on 7/4 20:19
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

That said Zaphod, it's not like the Catholic church is the only one to ever have cover-ups of misbehaviour!

Fro teh sake of my two penneth, I *do* think, given the other silences we've had as a nation, that there should be one for the pope. We have too many, but the slippery slope started long ago.

Buddy Posted on 7/4 20:19
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

Did you? What was that relating to?

moxzin Posted on 7/4 21:45
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

It was in an RE classroom, next to posters of Nelson Mandela and "What are Jews?". It was said by a European, I forget the name, and even the context. Possibly about the Nazis. It stood out and I thought 'how apt.'

Wiggy185 Posted on 7/4 23:03
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silen

Don't think a minutes silence for the pope would of worked at the Rangers ground.

Linny_Boy Posted on 8/4 1:32
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silence

And I suppose Black African politicans are blameless in the promotion of misleading HIV/AIDS information.

Link: How many will South Afica kill?

buffaloboro Posted on 8/4 1:42
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silence

Not a Cathlic - wld prefer not to have a minutes silence - Wld observe for the man as per a prior post , but not for the views of the Catholic Church , which I can't support ( eg Covering up child abuse , teachings on the use of condoms , indirect support of the Facists in WW2 )

Buddy Posted on 8/4 8:08
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silence

Certainly not Linny_Boy, although they are/were arguing against different things - effectively the Vatican against catching it and Mbeki against treating it.

Link: On grounds of cost?

Buddy Posted on 8/4 8:12
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silence

More recent article puts it in slightly different terms.

Link: Article

Boromart Posted on 8/4 10:11
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silence

scrote - you have just called the (recently deceased) leader of my faith a hypocrite based on a (knowingly?) false premise
There you go again, trying to belittle, by claiming that I am knowingly putting facts forward that I know to be false. I am not trying to argue with you. I'm just asking serious questions. Celibacy is a form of contraception is it not? If that is the case, why is that form of contraception allowed, yet another form of contraception is banned and a sin? To me and I'm sure many others that appears to be Hypocritcal.

Scrote - "again - if you don't understand the church's stance on contraception then don't get involved in an argument about it"
So I'm not a catholic, so I'm not allowed an opinion? or a discussion on it? Get of your high horse mate. I see people dying, some of them not even catholics, and partially due to the vaticans medling in africa it is getting worse, I've got as much right as you to have an opinion on this, and to air it, and I will.

I have some questions, I am generally interested and not attacking you or your church, so please don't get the hump -

Q1) Hitler was never excommunicated (Was this because the catholic church agreed with his anti-senitism? This is not a windup, just a possible reason.) and followed the catholic faith up to the day of his death, as did many senior figures in the third reich. Just a question what if Hitler repented (again not a windup, you seem knowledgable in the ways of the catholic church, and therefore I would value your opinion on this)?
Q2) Do you accept that the catholic churches current stance on contraception is not working, due to the proliferation of sexually transmittted disease and particularly AIDS in africa?
Q3) Surely the choice of life is Gods decision, not the vaticans? Do to the number of people that are contracting AIDS surely the use of condoms should become a matter of 'personal choice'? And the catholics priests who are spreading misinformation should be ex-communicated for helping to take life away?
Q4) Do you agree that comments like "He reiterated his opinion that condoms are too permeable to prevent the spread of HIV and AIDS, an opinion that Bishops and Cardinals are repeating across four continents" are scientifically wrong and should be outside the scope of the vatican? Preaching the morals is one thing, but this is just wrong. Statements like this most definitely make people and organisations like the vatican accountable.
Q5) The horse has bolted, do yo beleive that, people will listen to the catholic churches preachings on sex within marriage, given that this sin has been widely broken since the church and marriage came into being? How do we save the lives of those in africa?
Q6) Do you agree that there is motivation to break the "sex within marriage only" rule, but there would be little motivation to break a "condoms are OK" rule?
Q7) "my answer is NO - over time the same number of people will die as have died basically because people like yourself will always shout for personal freedoms over moral obligations" - I'm sorry that has gone way over my head, please enlighten me, are you saying that 28.1 million more babies will be born due to the lack of condom use?
Q8) Is this a reasonable view - "The Vatican is nothing more than a body that is interpretting 'holy scriptures'. That interpretation is made by humans, who catholics beleive are fallable, sinful at birth, and are fighting a constant battle against sin."
Q9) How do you feel about the coverups of sexual indiscretions amongst senior members of the vatican?

You choose to defend your faith, good on you, but so far like a politicain, rather than answer question you throw a question back or try and belittle me as someone who is "deliberatly misinterpretting". That would make me someone who is being argumentative and on a windup rather than someone who just happens to have a polar opinion to yours. Thats arrogant in the extreme, so please take my questions as an intuitive mind and not an insult on your religion.

"you cannot say that the pope is at fault 'cos people listen to him when it is blindingly obvious that the AIDS epidemic in africa has been caused by people not listening to him"
I am not saying that it is the popes fault. I have agreed that if everyone had followed the vaticans laws then we would not be in this mess. But the mess exists and something must be done to stem the tide. The vaticans laws have failed, a review of those laws (As has happened in many other areas - e.g. the churches position on Jews) would save lives. I do feel that the situation would not be as bad as it is with either no comment or promotion of condoms.

"However it is accepted that sexually transmitted disease and the devistation it has brought is a far greater evil." - which authority says it is a greater evil?
If the catholic church feels that condoms are a greater evil than the death of 28+ million africans then the new pope better be armed with a tin hat, because positive action needs to take place to erridicate this disease..

"what boromart is saying is that the people of africa should be allowed to sin to make up for the fact that they have already sinned (put very simplisticly) "
No, I am saying, history tells us they will sin anyway, should they be dispossesed of there lives, and 100s of thousands of children orphaned over this one sin (oh and many of them don't sin, they just have a sinful partner)?

theboydom -
"Genesis 2
24. For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh."
100s of thousands of catholics the world over either get divorces, seperate or have marriage difficulties every year, due to a 'wandering partner, that is an undoubted fact. Any idea what the churches view is on this? Is the marriage not a true marriage in the eyes of god, because the cheating partner was never truly in love? So therefore any sex that happened was actually outside of the confines of marriage?

TheMerryPloughboy Posted on 8/4 14:45
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silence

Boromart...You have a serious problem. Get help.

Boromart Posted on 8/4 16:04
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silence

just bored today at work mate, and its I find it quite amusing that people can be so politician-like when discussing religion.

bblf Posted on 8/4 16:46
re: A catholic community - Boro minutes silence

Sad that someone who seemed a canny old fella has died. Didn't agree with some of the things he stood for but appreciate others do. Surely a church (or home)is where you would go to remember him. No need to do it in a football stadium.