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ThePrisoner Posted on 23/7 17:04
Shot man - innocent?

The man shot dead yesterday was not related to the attempted bombings on Thursday according to the police.

Either the police are being very canny about something or they have killed an innocent man.

ScarboroSmoggy Posted on 23/7 17:08
re: Shot man - innocent?

He was a suspect bomber.

MontagueWithnail Posted on 23/7 17:13
re: Shot man - innocent?

Says who?

mcbrid Posted on 23/7 17:14
re: Shot man - innocent?

So why was he running away then?

Well done coppers - one less to worry about.

lets have more of this no messing.

mickmac

ham1 Posted on 23/7 17:14
re: Shot man - innocent?

anyone who runs onto a tube while being persuied by armed police during a major terror alert is asking to be shot

willy_thorn Posted on 23/7 17:16
re: Shot man - innocent?

This whole scenario is very dodgey.

I wouldn't be suprised if it turned out he was on the rob.

Blogsworth Posted on 23/7 17:17
re: Shot man - innocent?

This man was totally innocent and had no connections with terrorism....we need to know why he was chased by the police and killed.

mcbrid Posted on 23/7 17:18
re: Shot man - innocent?

He had come out of a house that was being wathced because it was linked to the Thursday bombings some way.

Thats enough for me - especially when he was running away wearing a puffer jacket in the middle of summer.

Give the copper a medal and let some of these barstewards feel the fear!

mickmac

mark1962 Posted on 23/7 17:19
re: Shot man - innocent?

If he`d stopped and let the police check him out he would still be alive to day. He`s only got himself to blame.

willy_thorn Posted on 23/7 17:20
re: Shot man - innocent?

"especially when he was running away wearing a puffer jacket in the middle of summer"

That doesn't mean anything. It's the middle of July and it's freezing out there.

willy_thorn Posted on 23/7 17:21
re: Shot man - innocent?

Like I said, he'd probably been on the rob during the day.

mcbrid Posted on 23/7 17:22
re: Shot man - innocent?

Do good nonsense willy.

Even if he was innocent its his own fault and it sends a real good message out not to cfuk about with us.

more please

mickmac

tees_tug Posted on 23/7 17:23
re: Shot man - innocent?

My theory is that he had been shoplifting at Maplins. Hence the wires and stuff under his jacket.


Got to feel sorry for that poor copper, he must be gutted.

davvyman Posted on 23/7 17:24
re: Shot man - innocent?

Put it this way, if i heard the words, "stop armed police" I think i would slow down a bit.

willy_thorn Posted on 23/7 17:28
re: Shot man - innocent?

Mcbrid - You're starting an arguement with the wrong person. You won't win.

Kacy and The Sunshine Band - Give It Up.

--- Post edited by willy_thorn on 23/7 17:29 ---

The_Commisar Posted on 23/7 17:29
re: Shot man - innocent?

I think you mean
"argument"

willy_thorn Posted on 23/7 17:31
re: Shot man - innocent?

Whatever.

Exiled_Boro Posted on 23/7 17:42
re: Shot man - innocent?

"This man was totally innocent and had no connections with terrorism....we need to know why he was chased by the police and killed."

No "WE" dont, i and many others could'nt give a flying f@@@.

willy_thorn Posted on 23/7 17:43
re: Shot man - innocent?

Well, I'm interested. You can't just go around killing people.

grainger1981 Posted on 23/7 17:45
re: Shot man - innocent?

I am too, the police have no right killing people for no reason. Hopefully there was a reason.

Quakerz Posted on 23/7 17:51
re: Shot man - innocent?

The bottom line is everybody in London has been told its "shoot to kill".

Now, if you don't stop you are going to get fcuking shot. We all know the score.

It is irrelevant that the man was not connected to the bombings.

And lets be honest, the intelligence services know who the scumbags are, and you can bet he was a scumbag. One down, many more to go.

Gains Posted on 23/7 17:54
re: Shot man - innocent?

The reason was, he was a suspect at the time who refused to stop for armed police.
That's good enough for me.

--- Post edited by Gains on 23/7 17:55 ---

NorfolknGood Posted on 23/7 17:59
re: Shot man - innocent?

According to the police statement a man came out from a BLOCK of flats and was followed by a number of men not wearing any uniform who started waving guns at him. I haven't got to the bit yet where it says 'Despite the men without uniforms who were waving the guns shouting stop armed police' but I expect I'll get to it eventually.

Still one less scumbag

archieste Posted on 23/7 18:05
re: Shot man - innocent?

None of the witnesses I've heard speaking said they heard anyone saying "stop armed police". Several said they heard shouts of "get down, get down", but none mentioned any warning being shouted.

Cobain_94 Posted on 23/7 18:13
re: Shot man - innocent?

Aren't they trained to shout POLICE before they've even said anything else?

Colin_40 Posted on 23/7 18:13
re: Shot man - innocent?

What difference does it make? If he had nothing to hide why was he running away? He got what he deserved as far as I'm concerned.

ST0CK0 Posted on 23/7 18:16
re: Shot man - innocent?

Yep, 2 of the blokes doing the chasing were deffo shouting "Stop armed police"
The shouts of "get down, get down" were shouted in the tube train itself, where the officers decided this bloke fate.

joebolton Posted on 23/7 18:19
re: Shot man - innocent?

"If he had nothing to hide why was he running away? He got what he deserved as far as I'm concerned."

Yeh.Execution was too good for him.How dare he run away when being chased by 3 blokes with guns.

Boro85 Posted on 23/7 18:22
re: Shot man - innocent?

No sympathy, his own stupid fault. Why run away from armed police - jumping over barriers in the process - if youve got nothing to hide and have been told to stop (as reported by sky news).

joebolton Posted on 23/7 18:24
re: Shot man - innocent?

"Aren't they trained to shout POLICE before they've even said anything else?"

Its in the manual , just after "Dont stab your wife 40 times if she's having an affair".

Coppers are human.It looks as though one has panicked , or the adrenalin has got to him.

BobUpndown Posted on 23/7 18:25
re: Shot man - innocent?

In the current climate you'd have to be a loon to run away, if or when, some bloke.. with a gun (if on view) shouts stop armed police (or whatever..).. the bloke on the bridge outside whitehall got it right..

to run away will and did decide your guilt.. he should have stopped and being searched..

joebolton Posted on 23/7 18:27
re: Shot man - innocent?

The bloke outside Downing St was apprehended by uniformed police not plain clothes.



--- Post edited by joebolton on 23/7 18:29 ---

--- Post edited by joebolton on 23/7 18:30 ---

fatharrywhite Posted on 23/7 18:30
re: Shot man - innocent?

interesting piece just on bbc news 24. all of yesterday there was no mention of any inquiry as to how the police managed the situation which always happens regardless.

security expert was suggesting that it may not have been the regular armed police who shot him but maybe some other specialist unit, even to the point of hinting at the SAS!

Boro85 Posted on 23/7 18:30
re: Shot man - innocent?

Ok put it this way, Your an armed police man. You know theres a very high threat of suicide bombers, and you have information making the fella your chasing a terror suspect. You and your 5 buddies have been following him and he makes a run for it. You yell Stop Armed Police, he jumps a barrier into an underground station and runs to the train full of people. He slips and happens to be wearing a big puffa jacket, his hands disappear from view. You either risk him being a bomber and blowing the train up, or you shoot him.

To be fair he doesnt give himself a chance. These police arent the regular coppers, they arent in uniform and are highly trained - somehow i dont think they are going to shoot someone because of an adrenaline rush.

Quakerz Posted on 23/7 18:34
re: Shot man - innocent?

And five consecutive bullets in the head is no adrenaline rush. One maybe, but not five. That copper wanted to make sure that guy was dead. Good on him.

ST0CK0 Posted on 23/7 18:37
re: Shot man - innocent?

Did he blow the end of his gun and say, "Take that punk"
Kill em all i say.

joebolton Posted on 23/7 18:38
re: Shot man - innocent?

Look at it this way.A guy, doesnt speak English maybe, comes out of his block of flats.Heads for the tube and starts to leg it as he's late.Next thing he knows 2 people are pinning him down, and the last thing he sees will be a revolver starting to unload , towards his brain.His family may be slightly aggrieved.I am not saying the police got it completely wrong, just that circumstances conspired against the "bomber" , and the Old Bill that shot ( executed ?) him.

CzechBoro Posted on 23/7 18:40
re: Shot man - innocent?

If the police shout at you to stop and point a gun at you. YOU STOP. They couldn't risk him being a suicide bomber.

Nobody runs for a train that quickly, leaping over barriers, when the police have asked him to stop OUTSIDE the station. I do not blame the police for the action they took.

NorfolknGood Posted on 23/7 18:40
re: Shot man - innocent?

I will wipe out any thoughts of over reaction by whoever killed him as soon as somebody points me to a statement or report froma reputable source, even the police themselves where somebody says that the warning 'police' was given. I dont even need to see the warning armed police.

At the meoment I have a bloke coming out of Brambles Fram flats bimg followed by some blokes who pull out guns and eventually kill him. I admit I may have the location wrong, but the scenario seems to be about right form what I have read so far.

never mind if he lived in Brambles Farm flats he must have been a scumbag, on the dole at least I'll bet you. thats one less of them

doc_holgate Posted on 23/7 18:42
re: Shot man - innocent?

I'm not totally happy knowing there are Boro fans who think that running for the tube shoudl be a capital offence. Like, if you think it's odd behavious not to stop when coppers are chasing you, you must have a f***ing sight different expereince of the c***s than I have.

joebolton Posted on 23/7 18:42
re: Shot man - innocent?

Why not shoot him in the leg as hes moving towards the carriage and bring him down.Why wait till hes in a crowded train carriage, and 2 of your mates have pinned him down.They could have shot him before he got on the train.

BobUpndown Posted on 23/7 18:43
re: Shot man - innocent?

it's, to say the least, unfortunate.. to get killed for not buying a ticket..

maybe we'll get to hear the full story from start of chase to end.. then we'll have all the details to form a considered opinion..

rather than speculate on all we know at the mo.. bloke jumps ticket barriers legs it onto train falls.. chased by 3 blokes.. shot 5 times in head..

joebolton Posted on 23/7 18:45
re: Shot man - innocent?

"maybe we'll get to hear the full story from start of chase to end.."

I know of one person who wont be able to give his side of the story

CzechBoro Posted on 23/7 18:45
re: Shot man - innocent?

Well if he had explosives under his "thick padded " bomber jacket a shot in the leg is not going to stop him detonating himself. I don't know but we are not appreciating here the pressure and paranoia that exists in London.

Its very easy for us up here, safely way from all the scary stuff, to sit on our fat arses and carp on about the police.

stipey Posted on 23/7 18:46
re: Shot man - innocent?

doc_holgate - you're obviously some scumbag crock who is always in trouble with the police then. if you run, you've got something to hide and are up to know good - FACT

tees_dan Posted on 23/7 18:51
re: Shot man - innocent?

JoeBolton you are living in shagging cuckoo land! The suspect was in a house being watched by SB as they suspected one of the scumbags whose arse fell out when only his detonator went off the other day of staying there. Some geezer leaves the house is follows does a runner refuses to stop when challenged (from those witnessess who were there) and ends up dead. Unlucky or suicidle?

Boro85 Posted on 23/7 18:51
re: Shot man - innocent?

1) dont hold your breathe for the full story any time soon. Any information will be sketchy since there must have been a reason they suspected him. If they release that reason they could endanger the on going operation or leads they are following

2) where on earth has the pinned thing come from? He was shot in the head because it disables the central nervous system meaning he cant detonate any form of device. They didnt shoot him earlier because he wasnt an immediate threat, just a suspect. As soon as he made a dash for the departing train the treat level increased - crowded train, leaving the station, possible bomber, same situation has happened 6 times in 2wks - hence they shot him. He wasnt pinned down and then shot.

NorfolknGood, the best written report i can find is Reuters. Ive heard it mentioned on sky news that the warning was "police stop" or something similar. Their article says:
"Plainclothes police chased the man into an underground train station on Friday after he ignored warnings to stop"
"and police said they had followed the man they shot from a house under surveillance and who had run when challenged"


Finally, i think the police know a hell of alot more than we do. Personally i trust they made the correct decision with the information available - which will be 99.9% more information than we have.

Link: Reuters

joebolton Posted on 23/7 18:53
re: Shot man - innocent?

"The suspect was in a house being watched by SB"

Block of flats

"refuses to stop when challenged (from those witnessess who were there)"

Assuming he speaks English.

tees_dan Posted on 23/7 18:56
re: Shot man - innocent?

Only assuming now are we? Oh I see.

doc_holgate Posted on 23/7 18:58
re: Shot man - innocent?

Stipey, not sure I should be communicating with someone who thinks "no good" is spelt "know good", but if you don't understand what the police are for, then you are either one yourself or hopelessly naive. As far as I can remember the last time a police officer actually arrested me was after we drew at home to Wolves in the FA Cup 6th Round in 1981. However, since then I have been through the "football fans are the enemy" phase of the 1980s, the miners' strike, and countless matches and political demonstrations. Know what they are, Stipey? No, I thought not. Police officers are okay if they're constrained by the law. If they are allowed to shoot people who are running to catch the tube, don't expect your white skin to save you.

joebolton Posted on 23/7 18:59
re: Shot man - innocent?

Im going out.Drinking to do.
I will return ce soir."assuming " I dont fit anyones description.

Boro85 Posted on 23/7 19:04
re: Shot man - innocent?

"If they are allowed to shoot people who are running to catch the tube"

Assuming he was ONLY running to catch the tube. Your saying it was fact that he was ONLY running to catch the tube.

Again i point out the police know a hell of alot more than we do. They made an informed decision and obviously had reason to believe he was a massive threat to public safety. They didnt just shoot him for the crack of it.

NorfolknGood Posted on 23/7 19:05
re: Shot man - innocent?

Boro 85 your faith and belief in the police is touching 'Finally, i think the police know a hell of alot more than we do. Personally i trust they made the correct decision with the information available - which will be 99.9% more information than we have.'

Unfortunately the police themselves don't even trust they made the correct decision:

A Scotland Yard statement said the shooting was a "tragedy" which was regretted by the Metropolitan Police.

The statement read: "We believe we now know the identity of the man shot at Stockwell Underground station by police on Friday 22nd July 2005, although he is still subject to formal identification.

"We are now satisfied that he was not connected with the incidents of Thursday 21st July 2005.


And can I put my previous comments into plain English: How is somebody expected to know when they are being followed down the street by people not wearing uniforms that they are plain clothed policemen, or do we just assume from now on that when somebody pulls a gun on us in future they are plain clothed police.

Boro 85 theres nothing in Reuters to say that anybody official reported a warning that the people with guns were armed police

Boro85 Posted on 23/7 19:17
re: Shot man - innocent?

My faith in the police information comes from knowing someone who works high up in the Met.

You said you didnt care if the warning didnt mention armed police, just that he was warned. The Met website has links to the statements made.
"Man shot at Stockwell tube station
We can confirm that at just after 10am this morning, Friday 22 July, armed officers from the Metropolitan Police entered Stockwell tube station in south London.A man was challenged by officers and was subsequently shot.

London Ambulance Service and the Helicopter Emergency Service attended the scene.

The man was pronounced dead at the scene.

Stockwell tube station is closed and cordons of 200 metres are in place.

As is routine, officers from the Met's Directorate of Professional Standards have been informed.
"

The man was challenged bit is good enough for me. A police challenge, according to two ex-police officers, meant identifing yourself.

--- Post edited by Boro85 on 23/7 19:18 ---

Link: Met Statement

ScarboroSmoggy Posted on 23/7 19:19
re: Shot man - innocent?

MontagueWithnail, says me, are you part of the pc brigade?

stipey Posted on 23/7 19:23
re: Shot man - innocent?

whatever doc - i'm sure whatever you did it was deserving of a good kicking, and i've been happy to have put the boot in myself.

Exiled_Boro Posted on 23/7 19:42
re: Shot man - innocent?

to the idiot above who said why not shoot him in the leg, Shut up you clown, there is no such policy as "Shoot to wound", in the UK or the US.

mcbrid Posted on 23/7 19:50
re: Shot man - innocent?

Willy - looks like you've given up on that argu(e)ment son?

Or have you gone off to start another somewhere?

Yeah - whatever.

Just to save you having to post your best rejoinder - i did it for you.

PS Rejoinder - answer to a reply

mickmac

borojap Posted on 24/7 0:56
re: Shot man - innocent?

Somewhat bizarre how I've just read a couple of reports on UK newspaper sites which refer to the shooting of this Asian man by police.....in the same report that reveals he was in fact Brazilian. Kinda makes even more of a mockery of the "search the Asians" idea some were coming out with.


Good to see that even those most critical of police errors (Liberty for example) are still sympathising with the stress and dilemmas faced by the officers concerned. But given that the Met themselves have now said the shooting was a tragic mistake and that this bloke was indeed totally innocent, anyone still coming out with the one nil to us kind of crap over his death is either a sick bastid or very immature.

Grumpy_Paul Posted on 24/7 1:15
re: Shot man - innocent?

Good post Borojap

Have some sympathy for most points of view in this matter

It's an emotional time (to varying degrees for each individual)at the moment and perhaps it's best for those with the most extreme comments to hold fire for a while and take stock.

Perhaps controvertially, I feel as sorry for the police involved as I do for the victim. What a difficult / impossible position for them to be in.

Strange and difficult times I suppose

joebolton Posted on 24/7 1:48
re: Shot man - innocent?

"Shut up you clown, there is no such policy as "Shoot to wound", in the UK or the US."

Firstly , I coulnt give a flying one about the policy in the US.Secondly I wasnt aware we had a shoot to kill policy in the UK.

And IMO, it would seem better sense all round to disable a potential terrorist AWAY from the public.If you were confident enough to put 5 bullets in his head, why not put 5 in him on the escalater.
The lad was obviouslty trying to get away from his perceived attackers, managed to get on the train in an attempt to escape them.The chasing police still felt the need to catch up, board the train, and then kill him.

The reason I replied initially was because of the attitude of "serves him right " by some people.Others seem to think our police are unfallable,unflappable proffesionals who follow there rules rigidly and are not prone to panic like the rest of us.Sympathy goes to the Brazillian guy, his family and to the copper who killed him.

(in that order)

MrAngryInKuwait Posted on 24/7 4:50
re: Shot man - innocent?

Main point is why did he run? WHy didn't he stop when challenged? If you're going to live in a country, you'd best learn the language. Police aren't going to issue warnings in any other language than English. Might be a multi-cultured society, but you won't get a multi-cultural police force.

buffaloboro Posted on 24/7 5:46
re: Shot man - innocent?

Jap et al ,it is all very easy to make judgements on what happened. There is no doubt that the person who shot the chap is feeling like poo now , the bottom line is , he came from a block of flats where it was believed a terrorist was. He was followed and the police ordered him to stop. He did not , in light of what had happened , they prob had reasonable grounds to suspect that he posed an immediate danger to innocent persons on the tube.
It is sad what happened , but you are an Ar*e hole to sit there with a pious view of the issues the police were dealing with and also without the full facts. No one doubts that the shooting was a huge own goal , but to condem is naive.
To be honest , I find the views of some of the posters on this site , naive to say the least. All well ^& good to say how it should be in your mothers houses in Winney Banks

--- Post edited by buffaloboro on 24/7 5:49 ---

karmapolice Posted on 24/7 8:22
re: Shot man - innocent?

Although I feel safer in the thought there is one less bomber on the streets, albeit suspected, giving the police too much power is not a good policy imo.

If he was innocent we will never get to know.

Perhaps they will reintroduce capital punishment by proxy?

boroboyinbath Posted on 24/7 9:06
re: Shot man - innocent?

It wasn't the police who shot him.

There should be no inquirey.

He failed to stop, if you know you've got suicide bombers on the loose what would you do ? Just let the guy run ? 1 life on your consience or 100s your choice it is that simple.

We have to many do goody liberals in this country thats why they all set up base here. Somone will always jump to defend the terrorist

mcbrid Posted on 24/7 9:13
re: Shot man - innocent?

He had been in the country 3 years and spoke good English.

Questions

Why didn't he stop when challenged?
What was he doing in the house?

Answers

To why not shoot him on the escalator? - ever tried shooting on the run at a moving target. Go paintballing and try it, its bloodyhard and you are likely to hit others.

mickmac

Kiwi_In_Disguise Posted on 24/7 10:04
re: Shot man - innocent?

He was followed, he was challenged, and he ran and was shot for it.

You don't run from the police on the best of days...

Doing it at this point in time was stupid, and I hate to say it, but there was nothing left for them to do but shoot.

We cannot expect the people put in charge of our protection to second guess themselves. That is when a real tragedy, involving hundreds of deaths occur.

Boro85 Posted on 24/7 11:01
re: Shot man - innocent?

boroboyinbath makes a good point.

Anyway. Why wasnt he shot on the escalator? I'll keep repeating myself until it sinks in. From my point of view, having heard stories from the police about this in the past. The level of threat this guy posed chnaged. It was already pretty high to be chased by armed police but when he was going down the escalators they most likely still wanted him alive. Then when they saw the train leaving the station, and the guy diving onto it the level of threat went up - they already suspected him to be a bomber and now he's just got on a packed train and you cant see his hands any more. Threat level increases - split second decision - kill him or risk him killing a good wedge of innocents. So they kill him.

As for shoot to kill policy in the UK. Yes there is one. It was annouced by someone in the Met, cant remember his name, but he said with the increased terrorist threat they had upped the "rules of engagement" from "Shoot The Chest" to "Shoot The Head" when dealing with potential terrorists. That was on BBC News 24 last as a refresher.

Finally the police did not board the train to shoot him, they didnt pin him down while they did it or any bull like that. They shot him as he was getting on the train, which was about to leave the station. At no point did they get on board and pin him down.

People have to acept we are living in a totally different world to 2wks ago. The situation has changed beyond belief and the police have to change their tactics to reflect that. They know best because they know more than we do.

bespana Posted on 24/7 11:07
re: Shot man - innocent?

Really worth reading this topic to see how many complete idiots are contributing to this board.

borojap Posted on 24/7 11:07
re: Shot man - innocent?

buffaloboro, I made no judgments on the incident other than to repeat what the police had already stated about it. My only "judgment" was on the people making immature comments about it.

And who are you calling an aasehole BTW?

OPEO Posted on 24/7 11:14
re: Shot man - innocent?

There is only one way to deal with a suspected suicide bomber and that is to terminate him before he kills or maims innocent lives. Bleating on about oh he may have been in the wrong place at the wrong time doesn't wash. In London at this time, if your an innocent it is simple to stand still. To run from the law is asking for it. Especially when there can't be anyone unaware of what's happened in the last fortnight. Clint Eastwood everytime.

borojap Posted on 24/7 11:26
re: Shot man - innocent?

As far as I'm aware, no-one on this board is having a go at the police and everyone understands the extreme pressure they've been put under. But an innocent guy is dead. As Ken Livingstone said he's really an indirect victim of the terrorists, as it was their actions that put our security forces under the kind of pressure that led to this mistake. So wouldn't it be a little less distasteful to stop harping on about how it was his own fault? Like everyone here has perfect judgment when being chased by men with guns?!

OPEO Posted on 24/7 11:30
re: Shot man - innocent?

I just can't help being 100% behind the man whose job it is to make me feel safer. Would you be against all these armed police/speceail forces. Do you feel the police should lay down their arms and get out the feather dusters?

tees_dan Posted on 24/7 11:31
re: Shot man - innocent?

Foolish, suicidle or had something to hide! It was the lads fault for not stopping and getting lower than a snakes belly when being screamed at. If he had stopped he would be alive and this topic would be finished. He was running away towards a tube train from armed men. Who did he think they were if not the police? What has he been up to?

borojap Posted on 24/7 11:35
re: Shot man - innocent?

But you can still be fully supportive of the police in doing a very difficult job with split second judgements, yet NOT have say how it's the Brazilian lad's own fault he's dead.

Why do some people have to think no further than simply either black or white?

Boro85 Posted on 24/7 12:03
re: Shot man - innocent?

In this case though, he left the police with no option. It was his own actions that led to his own death.

doc_holgate Posted on 24/7 12:04
re: Shot man - innocent?

ugh, Stipey, I used a naughty word to a policewoman who had, for no good reason, made me missed my train. It was arguably worthy of a thirty quid fine, which is what I got. Nobody mentioned a kicking. If only people like yourself were running the system of justice everything would be so much better. You do not need a kicking, Stipey, just psychiactric help, and spelling lessons, and probably a girlfriend.

poshthornaby Posted on 24/7 14:15
re: Shot man - innocent?

"Well, I'm interested. You can't just go around killing people."
really?
try telling this to the twwats he shares a house with !

poshthornaby Posted on 24/7 14:22
re: Shot man - innocent?

i heard the coppers saw him through the window humping his pet dog before he left the house and even though he was an electrician he was shot cos he wasnt corgi registered!!!!!
ha ha ha ha ha!

mboroboy Posted on 24/7 14:24
re: Shot man - innocent?

they couldnt shout police they had no dogs with them to tell them what to do

towz Posted on 24/7 14:37
re: Shot man - innocent?

The police have admitted that the guy had nothing to do with the bombings and called the incident a tragedy. They've admitted they were WRONG. SO why are people on here still trying to say that it's good the guy is dead and "one less scumbag" and stuff like that. It's revolting. Hang your heads in shame and wait for the facts till you come out with stuff like that.

Leedsclive Posted on 24/7 14:46
re: Shot man - innocent?

It's obviously a tragic mistake and people will want to be reassured that they won't be shot just for failing to stop when challenged by police, although the question remains as why he didn't stop.
This kind of fevered panic is just what the bombers want, so I would hope that the police will learn any lessons, but having said all that I for one would hope that people now understand the environment we're in and understand what can go wrong if you don't use your common sense. The other day I was at Leeds coach station and somebody calmly left a bag unattended and kicked up when the security officers there challenged them.
It's a bit rich the Brazilian government criticising the UK though when you look at their society and policing.

moodycow Posted on 24/7 15:02
re: Shot man - innocent?

True he was supposed to have been innocent. However the shoot to kill policy still makes me feel bit safer. Bet the copper who shot him feels sh@t to.

JimmytheHill Posted on 24/7 15:28
re: Shot man - innocent?

Surely though,
The police are on a "shoot to kill" instruction towards terrorists.....because they cannot afford to check the suspect, incase he actually is a bomber and detonates himself.
Therefore they are not going to know, or afford to check whether you are innocent or not and shoot them.
For instance, your a foreigner in a foreign country.....men in "everday plain clothes", not police uniforms, begin running at you shouting foreign words, aiming guns at you, you are going to run away from them!
I know i would!
Innocent person or suicide bomber, your not really going to have a chance either way!

Boro85 Posted on 24/7 15:35
re: Shot man - innocent?

Jimmy he spoke English and hence understood that the police told him to stop. I quote from the Sky News article, which contains an interview from his cousin:

"
"He was diligent and learned English quickly. He did OK and made friends. It was easy for him to work here. He was hard working. He had residency for five years," Mr Pereira said
"

moodycow Posted on 24/7 15:36
re: Shot man - innocent?

So what are the police supposed to do ??? If the shot bloke turned out to be a suicide bomber the police would be praised for the innocent lives saved the other day. Tragic event i no but im still pleased police have the shoot to kill policy bout time we got tougher on terrorism and the people who agree and promote it.

JimmytheHill Posted on 24/7 15:54
re: Shot man - innocent?

im not condemming the police procedure,
I apologise because i didnt realise he was fluent in english.
But I bring up the point of a non-english speaking foreigner in the country.
Whatever the police do,im in agreement with Moody, they will be condemed by a lot of sections.Either for taking away a person's human rights or by not taking action and another bomb going off.
I would not like to be in their shoes!

--- Post edited by JimmytheHill on 24/7 15:54 ---

moodycow Posted on 24/7 15:57
re: Shot man - innocent?

I work with alot of ethnic minorities and they can understand us when they want to. Where was this bloke from any way?

borojap Posted on 24/7 16:01
re: Shot man - innocent?

Don't see that whether or not he spoke English makes much difference. When you're cacking yourself and legging it as fast as you can thinking that some nutters with guns are after you, you're hardly in the best position to hear, digest and process things shouted at you, whether in your own language or one you understand or not.

Also, reports suggest the guy had done nothing wrong in his time in Britain. So surely he could therefore have been thinking, "they CAN'T be police - no uniforms, guns that police don't usually have here and I've done nothing to warrant being chased by police".

--- Post edited by borojap on 24/7 16:02 ---

moodycow Posted on 24/7 16:06
re: Shot man - innocent?

Point taken however didn't the shot bloke read or watch the news about whats going on down there, surely most people know London's on hige alert at the moment, and why run ?

Boro85 Posted on 24/7 16:07
re: Shot man - innocent?

Borojap thats pants in my opinion. You hear the words "police, stop" or "police, get down" or even simply "police" no matter whether your walking down the street or sprinting you react. You dont merely keep running like a loon and jump a barrier.

The guy has to take alot of the blame, he knew the current climate, had done something to get the attention of the police, and when he heard the challenge from them he ignored it and kept on running.

Its a tragic event yes, but you cant blame it on the police, they reacted how they have been trained to react.

Everyone on here having a dig at the police would be having even larger digs if he got on that train and it blew up because they let him board it.

sw2boro Posted on 24/7 16:08
re: Shot man - innocent?

Us? They?

moodycow Posted on 24/7 16:11
re: Shot man - innocent?

Us meaning English as first language, they as in English not first language.

borojap Posted on 24/7 16:14
re: Shot man - innocent?

Exactly. Haven't people been watching the news recently? Violent crime has increased quite dramatically and gun crime especially has been quite an issue in many urban areas, particularly London. So there are plenty of other things he could have reasonably thought, again not that he was in the best position to have much of a think.

moodycow Posted on 24/7 16:16
re: Shot man - innocent?

Would i run from bunch of blokes with guns hhmm

JimmytheHill Posted on 24/7 16:16
re: Shot man - innocent?

"Everyone on here having a dig at the police would be having even larger digs if he got on that train and it blew up because they let him board it."

That was the point i was making Boro85......They are in a "no-win" situation.

"They" as in police!

--- Post edited by JimmytheHill on 24/7 16:16 ---

moodycow Posted on 24/7 16:18
re: Shot man - innocent?

Agree Jimmy and thats what i have been saying . Police in a no win situ.

borojap Posted on 24/7 16:20
re: Shot man - innocent?

Oh, FFS....

PREPARES TO HEADBUTT WALL

Boro 85,
why, why, why can't you just accept that NOT blaming the dead man, or suggesting that he may have had good reason to act as he did does NOT equal having a go at the police.


"Everyone on here having a dig at the police"

Please tell me who has done this. I certainly haven't, quite the opposite, and I don't think anyone else has.

joebolton Posted on 24/7 16:25
re: Shot man - innocent?

Jap , your wasting your time.Read some of the other posts.Anyone who is uncomfortable with the guy being killed is an idiot, Rsole or living in cloud cuckoo land apparently.
It was all his fault, he should have known they were police, he lived with terrorists, he brought it on himself, our police are unfallable, why did he run when being chased by men with guns ?
If I still lived in South London and someone pulled a gun on me I would a) throw them my wallett if they were close or b) run like hell if I thought I could get on to the safety of a train.He chose option B, and as some would have you belive , was desrvedly killed.

sw2boro Posted on 24/7 16:26
re: Shot man - innocent?

Doc Holgate did, but you're right borojap. It's political correctness gone mad.

borojap Posted on 24/7 16:33
re: Shot man - innocent?

Cheers, Joe, was coming to that conclusion meself.

sw2, yes, he did, but it was regarding other police related incidents of his own experience. His main input re this incident was to pour a bit of scorn on those saying it was 'his own fault for running - end of'.

tees_dan Posted on 24/7 17:15
re: Shot man - innocent?

stand still = alive

run = dead

Regardless of colour religion occupation. He was in the wrong place at the wrong time and failed to carry out a simple instruction that would have prevented him from being shot. He was at fault for doing a runner, as simple as that. If for some reason he was under the impression that London gets it's citizens blown to bits by bombers week in week out, and that 24 hours previously bombs failed to detonate. And the Country and Capital is on full Alert, Then he may have had an excuse for running away from these civilians with guns: Mafia? IRA? Gangsters? Give your heads a shake and smell the cordite! He put himself in a lose lose situation which he could have avoided.

BY STANDING STILL FFS.....

JimmytheHill Posted on 24/7 17:51
re: Shot man - innocent?

stand still.........alive?
Do you think police can tell that he is an innocent or a bomner from him just standing still?
A suicide bomber can still detonate himself when standing still!
The police have to do a risk-assesment.
What would you do? shoot an "innocent" and face consequences later or be blown up because you stood there and didnt shoot a "bomber"?

MrAngryInKuwait Posted on 24/7 19:45
re: Shot man - innocent?

Foreigner or not, he'd been here long enough to learn two words of English. 'Stop.......Police....'

A tragic mistake. Let's hope it serves as an example and a warning, if a similar situation should occur again. The police are trying their best under very difficult circumstances. I wouldn't like to be in their shoes.

joebolton Posted on 24/7 19:45
re: Shot man - innocent?

He probably thought the people waving guns at him were the terrorists.

moodycow Posted on 24/7 19:49
re: Shot man - innocent?

Still don't answer why he ran. Think i would freeze and drop to floor if gang of blokes waving guns shouting stop , police started on me.

Sez_Les_Boro Posted on 24/7 21:34
re: Shot man - innocent?

If the shot man was innocent, then that is of course regrettable. So was the slaughter of 56 souls who were innocent without doubt. Could the police/special forces have taken a chance? I think they thought that they could not. If nothing else comes out of this execution, whether the man was implicated or not, two messages arise:

1) The Constitution of the UK has changed while these murderers are about. Some civil liberties may have to be foregone until they are defeated. People need to understand this, and react accordingly.

2) Any fanatical murderers who believe that the British are the easy sheep for slaughtering that they believe us to be instead of lions (their words) may think again. Do you still get 72 virgins if you end up with a bullet in your head?

Linny_Boy Posted on 24/7 23:56
re: Shot man - innocent?

Firstly, I know for a fact that if an armed member of the security forces issues a warning to a suspect who is believd to have killed or about to kill or endager life or property (the number of times that warning is given will vary according to circumstance) and the suspect fails to halt - then the security forces are quite entitled legally to open fire. The warning is to be given in the first language (i.e. English in England).

br14 Posted on 25/7 0:11
re: Shot man - innocent?

I just read he was having a bit of a lark with a friend and ran into the Tube station. The cops evidently shouted something, but I imagine that in a crowded station it would have been lost.

The moment the dead man realized what was going on was probably when the first bullet hit him.

I'm not condemming the Police BTW. But you should realize that if you give cops guns they're liable to use them (some might say with good reason).

I live in a country where every Policeman has a gun at his side, and they do use them. Perhaps once or so a year have situations like the one in London.

There are just as many scared people; just as many nutters; and just as many megalamanicas in the Police force as are in the general population.

Stop assuming that it only happens to other people - or people "who deserve it". Just hope it doesnt happen to you.

After all, isnt that why they call it terrorism?

darloEIO Posted on 25/7 1:13
re: Shot man - innocent?

i'm only halfway through this thread but once again norfolk is being a preeck. what would you have done?

a) waited for the suspicious customer to blow up a train, your colleagues and various other innocent bystanders in a large radius.

b) rugby tackled him and ask him whether he'd be kind enough to tell them if he was carrying any explosives and if so could he please disarm them?

c) give him a wedgie, nipple twist and squirt him with a supa=soaker and have a good laugh about how innocent he is?

jeeeesus, he ran from armed "police", probably not coppers i reckon, after repeated warnings. he didn't "get what he deserved" but he was very firkin stupid considering recent events. stupid boy i say. anyone else who runs from armed to the teeth coppers will deserve what they get.

hopefully they'll get a bomber next time. in the meantime when somebody says "STOP ARMED POLICE" stop and lie down. and hope that norfolk isn't around to push the coppers out of the way while bomb boy detonates himself.

the "copper" had no choice, end of.

Chutney Posted on 25/7 8:46
re: Shot man - innocent?

OK - a few points to consider:

1) Apparently his route from the block of flats to the tube station involved a trip on a bus - odd that he was being followed the whole way but that getting on a bus somehow "didn't" constitute a threat if getting on a tube did.

2) As Leedsclive said "It's a bit rich the Brazilian government criticising the UK though when you look at their society and policing." - maybe that's exactly why he got a bit jumpy when the police started waving guns at him.

3) At the minute we don't have capital punishment for ANY offence in Britain, so let's not start behaving as though this whole incident is fair enough.

4) I hope all the people who said things along the lines of "who cares, he was dodgy, good to get him out of circulation" feel like pricks this morning.

fatharrywhite Posted on 25/7 8:51
re: Shot man - innocent?

"It's a bit rich the Brazilian government criticising the UK though when you look at their society and policing." - maybe that's exactly why he got a bit jumpy when the police started waving guns at him"

on bbc news this morning they were talking about this - they were querying the police's story by saying there was no way he would have got jumpy as he would have known exactly what to do with armed police cos brazilians are so used to it..

sasboro Posted on 25/7 9:05
re: Shot man - innocent?

it's a terrible tragedy whats happened.

lots of things we dont know about the circumstances from both sides so hard to make a judgement on it until after the inquiry.

i am sure there will be cctv footage to confirm if he was running away or not.

my opinion on it at the moment is. if he was being watched then why was he not stopped earlier, such as on the street where it is safer. why was he running to the station and jumping over the turnstile. i assume he could speak and understand english well so why did he not just stop and not run away. why were the police watching him? perhaps he didnt think it was the police and thought it was some gang he knew of. Did the brazilian not know how sensative the situation was after the day before?

it's natural if you want to stop someone and they run away then you think they have something to hide. even if it's not right.

anyway i am sure it will all come out once the inquiry starts.

--- Post edited by sasboro on 25/7 9:06 ---

Chutney Posted on 25/7 9:08
re: Shot man - innocent?

Yeah, I'm sure it will sas.

"Lord Hutton? TB here, wonder if you could do us another favour..."

RAZMOND_HWDR Posted on 25/7 9:13
re: Shot man - innocent?

it wont come out. These sort of inquiries are never heard of again, for a very good reason, they give the government and police a bad name.

in 2 weeks it will be forgotten, unless the victims family does something about it.

sasboro Posted on 25/7 9:14
re: Shot man - innocent?

what other enquires are you talking about on a similar scale with the same publicity?

RAZMOND_HWDR Posted on 25/7 9:15
re: Shot man - innocent?

well, Prince Charles and his butlers for one.

sasboro Posted on 25/7 9:16
re: Shot man - innocent?

what happened there?

MrAngryInKuwait Posted on 25/7 9:17
re: Shot man - innocent?

Think about it. He's being tailed. They don't know his destination. The first shout from Police will have come when he starts to enter the tube station. He panics and starts to run. Police know they can only go for a head shot, and so they need to be pretty close to be sure the shots don't hit anyone else. Hence the chase, and shooting him when they finally catch upto him.

RAZMOND_HWDR Posted on 25/7 9:37
re: Shot man - innocent?

sasboro - exactly, now you get my point. *

* you do know what I mean?

sasboro Posted on 25/7 9:41
re: Shot man - innocent?

so in your opinion what happened between charles and his butlers? did he shoot him dead or something

Chutney Posted on 25/7 9:43
re: Shot man - innocent?

Good god, sas - you're losing a battle of wits with Razmond here. What's up with you?

sasboro Posted on 25/7 9:44
re: Shot man - innocent?

i just want to know what this charles and his butler is all about? i honestly dont know what its about as i dont take much notice of the royal family.

RAZMOND_HWDR Posted on 25/7 9:45
re: Shot man - innocent?

eh mr sasboro that does not even make sense.

I said this incident will be lost and forgotten soon just like the Charles butlers one. I was in no way comparing the two happenings.

sasboro Posted on 25/7 9:47
re: Shot man - innocent?

ok, what i mean is that i'm out of the country at the moment so havent a clue what this charles and his utlers is all about. can someone tell me please.

just done a google and seems a sexual thing. dont see the big deal.

dont see how they can cover up this shooting though, its probably all on cctv

--- Post edited by sasboro on 25/7 9:51 ---

Azedarac Posted on 25/7 10:04
re: Shot man - innocent?

This is a tragedy, and I don't support the view that the victim brought it on himself. When your life is in danger there are two natural reactions - stand and fight, or flee. Flight is not a conscious decision, it's built in to all of us through years of evolution.

Neither is it the police's fault. They had a snap decision to make, and took the option that might end up with one victim instead of dozens. They have procedures in place to help them, but ultimately the decision still has to be made. I hope it doesn't affect the decision if an armed officer is put in this situation again. I wouldn't want an officer hesitating because of what happened here, and allow a bomber to reach a target. That's why even though the victim turned out to be innocent the oficer should (and will) recieve full backing from his superiors.

As has been said before, if we're looking to place some blame it lands squarely on the shoulders of the terrorists who have created this situation.

RAZMOND_HWDR Posted on 25/7 10:09
re: Shot man - innocent?

i am not going to get bogged down with you calling what allegly happened no 'big deal'.

RAZMOND_HWDR Posted on 25/7 10:09
re: Shot man - innocent?

i am not going to get bogged down with you calling what allegly happened no 'big deal'.

NE62RG Posted on 25/7 10:09
re: Shot man - innocent?

Came out a house where bombs were aleged to have been made, Legged it after being confronted by police, legged straight onto a tube train, Police had no option but to take him out, could have had a bomb vest on under his shirt. What whould we being saying if we just let him go and the tube doors shut behind him then he detonated a bomb????.

RAZMOND_HWDR Posted on 25/7 10:28
re: Shot man - innocent?

i thought he came out of a block of flats that the police were monitoring??

If so it is a bit unfair to tarnish him with the same brush as the bombers.

NE62RG Posted on 25/7 10:41
re: Shot man - innocent?

they were monotoring the the house he came out of in the flats, true it may not of been a house for the bombers, but the police must have had some evedience or a tip off about the house if they had armed police and what not watching it. thing is once he run onto the Tube i reckon the police had no choice to shoot him, as i said they were not to know he may have had a bomb vest on.

BroadBrush Posted on 25/7 11:17
re: Shot man - innocent?

Shall we look at the basics of this ?

This guy must of been aware of the previous 24hrs at that tube station and the vast number of 'uniformed' police in the area.
Also 7/7 bombings 2 week previous.

He is in a padded/quilted jacket on a warm day in London.???
He is challenged by police to stop. He doesn't stop, he runs ???
He runs a few hunderd yds down the road at the time being shouted at by a number of police officers, runs into the tube station, jumps over a ticket barrier another few hundred yards and onto a tube train. All the time being told to stop.

My view is the police where correct in taking him out, as they where saving the majority of people on that tube train.
That police man who shoot him must of being thinking he was going to be blown up at any second once this guy had jumped onto the tube train. The people sat on that train should be grateful that this police officer put his life on the line to save them.

As for this guy being innocent, HE himself, made the desicion.
He could of stopped at any time ! FACT.

Keep up the shoot to kill policy.

Majority not Minority.

fatharrywhite Posted on 25/7 11:22
re: Shot man - innocent?

that's all very well broadbush but where is the evidence that all that happened? only eye witness reports so far are at the very end when he was shot.

Having said that, I'm sure i heard on the news last night that he may have been working over here illegally (nothing in the papers about that this morning though so maybe misheard) which could have been the reason he paniced and ran.

Andriss Posted on 25/7 11:39
re: Shot man - innocent?

Whilst appreciating that the police have a difficult job there are a couple of aspects of this that are difficult to understand.
The man that was shot was resident in the UK for some years, living with a cousin in a flat in the building under surveillance. Did the police not check out the identities of the residents in that and other surrounding buildings?
The defence that they could not risk the man boarding the tube makes you wonder why they did not challenge him when he left the building. He, apparently, walked to the bus stop and took a 30 minute bus ride before entering the tube station.
We will never know why he ran and could argue about the acoustics in tube station entrances or the exact wording of the warning given for ever. What appears to be undeniable is that the man was innocent and that the police are culpable.
It would seem that people like Moxzin were justified in their unease about the initial details however sketchy.
What is almost as worrying are some of the reactions on here and the rants against do-gooders. Simplistic, I know, but you can do good, do bad or do nothing.

Piquet2 Posted on 25/7 11:42
re: Shot man - innocent?

Something else that could have happened, that didn't but could yet do, what happens when the police do challenge someone with 'Police', and he blows himself up?

The_River Posted on 25/7 11:55
re: Shot man - innocent?

I was there

Link: My account

BroadBrush Posted on 25/7 12:10
re: Shot man - innocent?

As stated he must of been aware of what had being going on in London and around that tube sation over the last 2 weeks and 24 hrs.

The block of flat he left to the tube station is some 200 yds. Video from somebodys Camara Phone was shown on the TV of about 10 police running after this guy down the road. He jumped over the Ticket Barrier and onto a Tube train. I have traveled from that tube station and know it's not just a short jog up the stairs to the train.

As the police have said. They where watching the block of flats. This guy left the block of flats with a big quilted jacket on, which gave them concern. Summers day ? Bomb Strapped to him ?
How can the police check ID's of everybody leaving that building ? They asked the guy to stop he didn't he ran, which most people would suggest be an action of somebody whom was not an 'innocent' by stander.

This guy had a number of chances to stop he didn't and paid the ultimate price for being stupid.

What if we where debating on here " how come the police let a sucide bomber get onto a tube train kill 50+ people when he left a block of flats they were watching, out run them down Stockwell high st, get into the tube station and onto the train ?

sasboro Posted on 25/7 12:13
re: Shot man - innocent?

a similar thing could have happened if the bloke near downing street had ran off. but he stopped and did as he was told, initially arrested but later released.

Kiwi_In_Disguise Posted on 25/7 12:45
re: Shot man - innocent?

was about to say the same thing sas.

the bloke at downing st, after being challenged followed dir and lived...

but from what i have read and seen, they where in full combat dress, with police all over it, and the fact in front of him was about 20 - 30 policemen in full uniform.

and the "reported fact" that the men who shot this man where not police, but somthing along the lines of special forces, but not. if you know what i mean! i believe MI5 sharpe shooters was used, not saying it's true, but if it is, they will be no inquest in to what happend. apparantly we don't do that if they (MI5) are involved. National Sec and all.

sasboro Posted on 25/7 14:10
re: Shot man - innocent?

as a PR thing, if other members of his family are on expired visas will they be allowed to stay now? dont sue and you can stay..etc

borojap Posted on 25/7 14:29
re: Shot man - innocent?

Anyone have a link or source to the story about his visa? I've read various versions; that he was legal, that he had a legal student visa but may have not been supposed to be working. I've just seen the BBC site's story which has a big headline saying he had an expired visa, but the detail below that headline doesn't really expand on the visa issue. I read a few other sites like skynews which didn't really say anything other than repeat the family's claim that he was working legally.

It's a plausible theory that this could be what made him panic, but it would be useful to have a clearer picture of exactly what his visa situation was to gauge how plausible.

--- Post edited by borojap on 25/7 14:31 ---

RAZMOND_HWDR Posted on 25/7 15:23
re: Shot man - innocent?

so...... anyone who does not now stop for police when asked can be shot in the head when caught five times, and if found innocent after the event it is ok because they shouldnt have tried to run??

Some people sound crazy when they try to rationalise and event like this.

sasboro Posted on 25/7 15:28
re: Shot man - innocent?

Raz, this could be difficult for you to grasp but they will shoot to kill when they suspect you could be a suicide bomber. even before they shoot you they give warnings to do as they are told. I dont think they will shoot you when youve been shop lifting at teesside park

RAZMOND_HWDR Posted on 25/7 15:30
re: Shot man - innocent?

but if you are black and run into a london train station with your bag and coat on.

Then they might think 'That's one of them'.

sasboro Posted on 25/7 15:32
re: Shot man - innocent?

was the brazilian black?

fatharrywhite Posted on 25/7 15:32
re: Shot man - innocent?

raz, are you deliberatly been a complete idiot or do you really believe what you are writing - that a black person who runs in a tube station will get shot!?

absolutely pathetic

The_River Posted on 25/7 15:34
re: Shot man - innocent?

Raz, we could do without your input on this subject please. This is a serious issue and you're not adding anything to the discussion.

RAZMOND_HWDR Posted on 25/7 15:39
re: Shot man - innocent?

the worrying thing is that you say the guy who was shot was a suspected bomber.

Yet thats not what the police say.

He lived with his cousin, which must suggest that he is also suspected as many on here say that it was their house under watch. Yet I thought it was the whole of the flats under watch.

To say that only suspected bombers will get shot and yet this guy wasnt a suspected bomber is a little idiotic.

tees_dan Posted on 25/7 15:44
re: Shot man - innocent?

Right a man leaves a building being watched by police as they suspect a failed bomber from the previous day may reside there!
The police follow him, it is warm and he is wearing a winter coat?

The man gets on a bus and heads to Stockwell tube station. The police dont suspect him of being a suicide bomber but beleive he may lead them to one. The police follow him on the tube.

The Tube explodes killing all inside.

Todays Headlines:

Police fail to act: Having followed A suspect they allowed him they allowed etc etc etc..

Tragic though it is I know which headline I prefer.

fatharrywhite Posted on 25/7 15:50
re: Shot man - innocent?

wtf are you talking about? he was a suspected bomber and the reason he was shot was cos he ran! if you're not a suspected bomber then you woudnt run!!

unfortunately for him he wasnt 'innocent' he was working illegally which is probably the reason he ran. the odds on that happening again must be very long to say the least.

it's safe to say that any innocent person will not make the same mistake (if mistake is the right word) again

RAZMOND_HWDR Posted on 25/7 15:54
re: Shot man - innocent?

thats my point. If you are not innocent - the crime maybe pinching a purse, if it is in a London train station the result for your action could easily be death.

In the case of the incident, the man was guilty of maybe not renewing a visa but to think that is a justified reason for death is wrong.

sasboro Posted on 25/7 15:57
re: Shot man - innocent?

since when do armed police run after a person who pinches purses? and even if it were the case and they would only shoot him if he had was a risk of killing someone. like if he was waving a gun around and even then they give warnings to drop the gun. it's not like in amereican cop shows where they shoot at someone 50 metres away in a crowded street

fatharrywhite Posted on 25/7 15:59
re: Shot man - innocent?

give me a break - it is not going to easily end in death if you are running around a tube station with a stolen purse.

if a cop has a gun pointing at you and all you've done is steal a purse do you really think the suspect is going to do anything other than co-operate given what happened last week? (and to be perfectly blunt, if you do end up getting shot it will be your own fault now)

we saw exactly what happens if you listen to what they say with the guy stopped in front of downing street - a simple arrest..

RAZMOND_HWDR Posted on 25/7 16:02
re: Shot man - innocent?

your missing my point.

people are asking : why didnt he just stand still when asked?

some of the answers are : well he was here illegally so thats why he ran.


I am just saying put someone who has just pinched a purse or committed another petty crime in the same position, what will they do?

Run.

and what will the police do?

catch them and shoot to kill.

thats the worry.

fatharrywhite Posted on 25/7 16:05
re: Shot man - innocent?

raz, you're either deliberatly ignoring every ones points or are just trying to wind people up with ridiculous arguments.

People how have nicked purses, given what happened to this guy, coming face to face with armed police ARE NOT GOING TO RUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and if they do, quite frankly, they are barking mad and i will have little sympathy for them!

moxzin Posted on 25/7 16:20
re: Shot man - innocent?

Why the hell was he allowed on a Bus, knowing what happened to the No.30?

sasboro Posted on 25/7 16:23
re: Shot man - innocent?

maybe he jumped on the bus before they had a chance to stop him and didnt want to stop the bus just in case he sussed he was being followed and let of a suspected bomb on the bus. maybe he ran straight on the bus and legged it from the bus to the station

Andriss Posted on 25/7 16:28
re: Shot man - innocent?

Even now there appears to be confusion over basic facts. In this post we have had the flats as being 200yards from the tube station and 2 miles from the tube station? The news I saw yesterday quoted a 30 minute bus ride. Also I would have thought that if the police had the house / flats under observation they would have had some information to hand on all of the people that lived there. How else would they eliminate the innocent?

borojap Posted on 25/7 16:40
re: Shot man - innocent?

One of many questions we don't know the answer to, mox.

Another key one is that given there were several flats (9 I think) in the building watched, why was he chosen to be followed? 9 flats means a lot of people potentially coming and going who would have nothing to do with the particular flat the police were concerned with. Was it his complexion? His coat? Anything else?

To ask the questions is not to blame the police. But to not ask them fails to do what we must do, which is to minimize the risk of this happening again without compromising public safety.

The link below is an article I read earlier today. One excellent point that this writer makes is that too many people can't just admit "I don't know". This thread is a sad example of just that. So many unanswered questions about this lad's death, and so many people filling in the bits they don't know as they see fit.

Link: peter preston article

tees_dan Posted on 25/7 18:03
re: Shot man - innocent?

He was shot 8 times in the head! A tad excessive for me. I still think the police had no option though.


So many unanswered questions about this lad's death, and so many people filling in the bits they don't know as they see fit.

Well what makes you know more than anyone else?

Piquet2 Posted on 25/7 18:08
re: Shot man - innocent?

Depends how many officers fired rounds dan, 3 or 4 armed officers a couple of shots each, 7 shots to the head and one to the shoulder.

sasboro Posted on 26/7 8:55
re: Shot man - innocent?

I imagine they would not take any chances and follow most people coming out of those flats. see where they are going and when it is safe to do so stop and search them. if a person runs off, i imagine all panic kicks in with the police and their thoughts are of a potential bomb that could go off at anytime. how can you stop a potential suicide bomber without shooting him dead if he wont stop?

RAZMOND_HWDR Posted on 26/7 9:10
re: Shot man - innocent?

thankgod I dont live in those flats then.

A plain clothes individual with a gun follows you and tries to stop you ... fook I'd run he'd scare the hee bee jee bees out of me.

sasboro Posted on 26/7 9:12
re: Shot man - innocent?

raz, i wouldnt be worried unless you have something to hide. use common sense, if a police man with a gun tells you to get down what would you do? scarboroughsmoggies said last week he saw armed police arrest a suspected murderer. dont think he got shot dead as he did what they told him to do.

RAZMOND_HWDR Posted on 26/7 9:21
re: Shot man - innocent?

thought the police who followed him to the station were plain clothed hence did not look like police but carried a gun.

sasboro Posted on 26/7 9:22
re: Shot man - innocent?

raz, ask the_river as he was there and said he could tell they were police

RAZMOND_HWDR Posted on 26/7 9:27
re: Shot man - innocent?

I, like yourself, were talking about the undercover police who followed him from his home.

You are also talking about the backup now.

Piquet2 Posted on 26/7 9:36
re: Shot man - innocent?

The suveillance officers are unarmed, and police procedure says they do not arrest a suspect, when the suspect got on a bus they immediately called for back up in the form of an armed police response unit, who approached him when he got off the bus outside the tube station, the officers, although plain clothed will have been wearing baseball caps, emblazoned with 'POLICE' and a bandw checker band, they may also have been wearing police tabbards, when challenged he ran into the tube entrance.

RAZMOND_HWDR Posted on 26/7 9:44
re: Shot man - innocent?

'may' is just as bad as 'maybe' when try to state fact.

you can get those police caps from gift shops

Piquet2 Posted on 26/7 9:48
re: Shot man - innocent?

OK, when he was approached by police as he got off the bus, they had police caps on, easily identified as police. FACT.

RAZMOND_HWDR Posted on 26/7 9:51
re: Shot man - innocent?

how many police approached him at the bus stop with caps on?

Piquet2 Posted on 26/7 9:52
re: Shot man - innocent?

Four.

RAZMOND_HWDR Posted on 26/7 9:53
re: Shot man - innocent?

how far away was the bus stop from the train station, just outside?

joebolton Posted on 17/8 21:48
re: Shot man - innocent?

Bespana wrote
"Really worth reading this topic to see how many complete idiots are contributing to this board"

Quakerz wrote
"And lets be honest, the intelligence services know who the scumbags are, and you can bet he was a scumbag. One down, many more to go."

"Even if he was innocent its his own fault and it sends a real good message out not to cfuk about with us.
more please
mickmac"
And Tees_Dan
"JoeBolton you are living in shagging cuckoo land!"


poshthornaby Posted on 17/8 22:05
re: Shot man - innocent?

a friend of mine who is a copper told me that he had heard it wasnt even the police who shot him!
rather it was our friends from hereford! the police just happened to be involved in the same operation and subsequently took the blame for it

jamiered Posted on 17/8 23:38
re: Shot man - innocent?

talking about this now on radio cleveland

tees_tug Posted on 17/8 23:46
re: Shot man - innocent?

Shot man-dead!

Look it was an accident. Stupid people have today called for the police involved to be charged with murder. That is crazy. They were doing their job. Hardly a job most of us could or would do. Unfortunate and unfair, but in the climate, these things happen. Blame the terrorists who caused situation, and the mullahs who egged them on.


And thank those who are doing their best to protect us.

joebolton Posted on 18/8 0:19
re: Shot man - innocent?

The overreaction of the police is understandable, given the circumstances.What I didnt understand was the joy felt by some people at his death.The thread started by pointing out the guy was innocent, and the responses were generally "who gives a ?,"
or the old "our boys in blue dont make mistakes" attitude .
Anyone who disagreed was a clown or whatever.
Also some of the FACTS posted just to try and win an argument.

"OK, when he was approached by police as he got off the bus, they had police caps on, easily identified as police.FACT" (Piquet)

Thats enough for me - especially when he was running away wearing a puffer jacket in the middle of summer.(Mcbrid)

"Yep, 2 of the blokes doing the chasing were deffo shouting "Stop armed police" (STOCKO)

"No sympathy, his own stupid fault. Why run away from armed police - jumping over barriers in the process - if youve got nothing to hide and have been told to stop" (Boro 85)

"He was followed, he was challenged, and he ran and was shot for it." (Kiwi in Disguise)

Now ,heres the thing, I accept that hindsight is always 20/20, and also that bobbies had a hard descision to make on the day, but the attitudes of some people were (IMO) crass in relation to showing any sympathy for the guy.

ThePrisoner Posted on 18/8 0:27
re: Shot man - innocent?

I could have accepted that it was a terrible mistake but it now seems the police have been lying through their teeth. No puffer jacket, no barrier jumping, no running away. Sadly, I am not in the least surprised by this.

tees_tug Posted on 18/8 0:31
re: Shot man - innocent?

People will have a reaction to what was, (the bombings) a horrendous crime against innocents. Also, we could only comment on the information available at the time.

What happened to that man was a tragedy. I guess nobody is sadder than the police who took action that was at the time, understandable.

I for one, am not going on a lynching party against guys who were doing their best in difficult circumstances.

NorfolknGood Posted on 18/8 0:47
re: Shot man - innocent?

As opposed to many on this board who were happy to see a lynching party at the time, because if the bloke lived in a block of flats where a suspected terrorist lives then he deserves to be shot

tees_tug Posted on 18/8 0:53
re: Shot man - innocent?

Who rattled your Guardian Norfolk? Rich has gone from here now, no-one to bully for you tonight. The flatlands of Norfolk are a dull area for dull people.


Go to bed. The administration of the NHS will need you in the morning.

NorfolknGood Posted on 18/8 1:12
re: Shot man - innocent?

A very good idea Ridsdale old tug.




NorfolknGood Posted on 23/7 18:40 Email this Message | Reply
re: Shot man - innocent?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I will wipe out any thoughts of over reaction by whoever killed him as soon as somebody points me to a statement or report froma reputable source, even the police themselves where somebody says that the warning 'police' was given. I dont even need to see the warning armed police.

At the meoment I have a bloke coming out of Brambles Fram flats bimg followed by some blokes who pull out guns and eventually kill him. I admit I may have the location wrong, but the scenario seems to be about right form what I have read so far.

never mind if he lived in Brambles Farm flats he must have been a scumbag, on the dole at least I'll bet you. thats one less of them



Departs smugly (and sadly) to bed

borojap Posted on 18/8 1:22
re: Shot man - innocent?

"I guess nobody is sadder than the police who took action that was at the time, understandable"


Yeah, I'm sure his family aren't that bothered really.