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MrAngryInKuwait Posted on 22/9 12:52
Can't understand these comments

MaC the defender Sep 22 2005




Adam Steel, Evening Gazette


Under-fire Steve McClaren has hit back at claims that Boro's European exertions are being used as an excuse for poor league performances.

The Boro manager has also come out in praise of the club's supporters after describing the 14,000 UEFA Cup crowd against Skoda Xanthi as "disappointing" last week.

McClaren pointed to the Xanthi win as playing a part in the follow-up draw at Wigan on Sunday and he stands by his comments, insisting the facts speak for themselves.

"We had ten games in Europe last year and won one in the league immediately after them," said McClaren.

"Liverpool had something like 14 games in the Champions League and won one back in the league.

"The evidence is there, you cannot get away from it and we know what an effect that can have. It's not an excuse, it's a reason - when you look at other teams in Europe, they all suffer."

McClaren rested key players against the Greeks, drawing criticism from some fans, but he says tinkering with the team is vital on occasion.

He said: "Rotation keeps you as fresh as you possibly can be. What you can't do in the Premier League is have an off day and be less than 90 or 95 per cent.

"If you are 80 or 85 per cent, you can't expect to win games, not at Boro - maybe you can if you are Chelsea, Arsenal or Man United.

"We have to make sure we progress in Europe and the Premiership - to do that, you can't field the same 11 players all of the time. That is why we are playing the youngsters coming through and giving them experience.

"If you look at it, we got a good result against Xanthi and four points against Arsenal and Wigan. I think we would have taken that at the start of the week."

Boro fans reacted angrily to McClaren's comments after Xanthi, while attendances have fallen across England amid claims of poor entertainment and high prices.

But the Boro boss today expressed his respect for the club's fans and thinks that the quality of top flight football is higher than ever.

He said: "I've got full admiration for the 14,000 who turned up against Xanthi. They are the diehards and they are the people who we play for.

"Look at the support we had against Wigan away from home. It was absolutely magnificent and we enjoy that support.

"But it is difficult in any area of society and especially in a place like Middlesbrough, for fans to keep forking out the money that is necessary to watch a football match.

"But we have got fantastic support - and we will need it over the coming months and especially against Sunderland in the derby on Sunday."


As pointed out by McDonald last night on the 3 Legends, last season in Europe, Newcastle's results in the league, immediately after a European game, were better than ours. Newcastle are not as good as Boro, proven by the fact that we finished above them, so why then does McClaren insist that all teams in Europe suffer because of the extra games they play?

scoea Posted on 22/9 12:56
re: Can't understand these comments

Perhaps because Newcaslte are an exception rather than the rule?

captain5 Posted on 22/9 12:58
re: Can't understand these comments

How many times did Chelsea, Manu and Arsenal lose last season?

sasboro Posted on 22/9 12:59
re: Can't understand these comments

bolton won 1-0 on sunday

captain5 Posted on 22/9 13:01
re: Can't understand these comments

Neither Liverpool or Manu got beat at the weekend.

karembeu_ca Posted on 22/9 13:01
re: Can't understand these comments

MAIK, doesn't the data from a team that played 14 games, and is better than us, suggst more than the Toon?

And I think his comment is fair about the 80 or 85% thing too - and physical hasn't got as much to do with it as mental. Players are probably fit enough to play extra games, although they wil eventually get injuries etc. from it, but it's hard to keep top mental focus week in week out, that's why upsets happen, and games are decided more by mistakes than ever these days.

scoea Posted on 22/9 13:01
re: Can't understand these comments

And Allardyce accepted that they were very lucky and that the UEFA game had affected them.

It is a scientific fact that these games have an effect - particularly when playing a team that has not had a midweek fixture. Those that can't accept that tend to be the same ones that have a dislike of McClaren.

Paulinho Posted on 22/9 13:02
re: Can't understand these comments

In the 92nd minute after defending like billyo.

McClaren is a fraud.

red_rebel Posted on 22/9 13:02
re: Can't understand these comments

Those quotes sound like they have come through gritted teeth.

"I am not full of admiration for 10,000 of our season-ticket holders. They are not diehards," he could have added.

captain5 Posted on 22/9 13:04
re: Can't understand these comments

I don't have a dislike particularly but it does sound almost O' Leary whinge-like.

If he knew about this last year, why didn't he bring more players in??

Paulinho Posted on 22/9 13:07
re: Can't understand these comments

There were five players replaced from the Xanthi game.

sasboro Posted on 22/9 13:07
re: Can't understand these comments

I think i will write a letter to the club demanding we withdraw from the uefa cup so we can concentrate on getting into the chamopions league and winning a domestic cup. The uefa cup is an unwanted distraction with far too many games. It is an over rated cup anyway.

the club and manager know that as you become more successful you play more games, so accept it and deal with it!
were the team against xanthi and wigan much different?

boroboymike Posted on 22/9 13:11
re: Can't understand these comments

Sunday's result had nothing to do with the manager making defensive substitutions and trying to hang on to a 1-0 lead against mediocre opposition with a formation none of his players understood. No siree!

I could go on about Lampard and terry playing every game, Man U/Arsenal/Chelsea never having problems but I think people' opinions are fixed on this.

You either believe MaCLaren's talk or you don't. I'd just love the interview to ask him why he didn't put Massimo on and try to keep attacking. Hey, why not even ask why he's never bought a decent right-winger in 5 summers.

scoea Posted on 22/9 13:12
re: Can't understand these comments

Just look at Boateng's performance and tell me he wasn't affected against Wigan. He is a key player whose game is based around his energy.

captain5 Posted on 22/9 13:13
re: Can't understand these comments

If he had put Massimo on instead of Doriva we'd have won.

Everyone who went to the game was in agreement afterwards.

sasboro Posted on 22/9 13:13
re: Can't understand these comments

scoea, how do you suggest we solve the problem. if the uefa cup is going to cost us about 10 points this season, then should we bother with it? think what difference thos 10 points coul d have made alst season

BossHogg Posted on 22/9 13:14
re: Can't understand these comments

You spin me right round, baby right round (again)....

scoea Posted on 22/9 13:14
re: Can't understand these comments

I wasn't captain. I thought the error was not in McClaren putting Doriva on - I probably would have, given our bench. The mistake McClaren made was in not sorting the shape of the team out.

Sparky_Lightbourne Posted on 22/9 13:15
re: Can't understand these comments

Mac is obviously trying to suggest that on average teams that play in europe during the week have, for whatever reason, a poor record the following game. To raise a single example, such as bolton or a group of results, newcastle, is a specious argument as the average still holds true.

Don't know whether macs original comment was true or not although taking it as correct until someone crunches the stats there would appear to be some reason for the continual underperformance of the typical team after european games. I am not going to speculate on the reason but to deny the effect would be disregard the available evidence and would therefore be unrealistic.

scoea Posted on 22/9 13:15
re: Can't understand these comments

You're right Sas - it's a vicious circle. The more success the more games. Our problem is that we can't afford a big squad and so have to do our best to get through as best we can.

Now if we were to get in the Champions League, we may just be able to add the players we need to sustain that success.

Big_Shot Posted on 22/9 13:18
re: Can't understand these comments

But to be fair Maccarone was introduced 15 minutes into the 2nd half when we were still 1-0 up. Why didn't we still win then?

Sparky_Lightbourne Posted on 22/9 13:20
re: Can't understand these comments

To be even fairer, wigans goal was due in a large part to an individual error. To blame maclaren for the falibility of man is a little harsh.

karembeu_ca Posted on 22/9 13:21
re: Can't understand these comments

"If he had put Massimo on instead of Doriva we'd have won.

Everyone who went to the game was in agreement afterwards."

Oh, well, the Universe must be changed so the opinions of fans in the stands directly influence ALL matches then ???

ccole Posted on 22/9 13:23
re: Can't understand these comments

Lets be honest, no mater what McClaren says, at least half the people will slag him for it.

The bloke is in a difficult position.

Does he upset the club/his employers and say that the prices the fans pay is too much for the product the club sells, or does he say the fans should turn up more?

Whatever he says, on whatever subject he will get grief from some quarters.

He is always in a no win situation.

grantus Posted on 22/9 13:24
re: Can't understand these comments

scoa, "It is a scientific fact" How's that then Einstein?

tony_block19 Posted on 22/9 13:26
re: Can't understand these comments

"He said: "I've got full admiration for the 14,000 who turned up against Xanthi. They are the diehards and they are the people who we play for."

He's not going the right way about making more friends is he.

BUT I'm a diehard, ner ner na ner neeer!!!

grantus Posted on 22/9 13:27
re: Can't understand these comments

Dont you mean "baaa baa ba baa baaaaar"?

boroboymike Posted on 22/9 13:33
re: Can't understand these comments

I certainly wouldn't blame MaCLaren for Ugo's error, but the fact the Boro created/threatened so little 2nd half is due to the lack of midifled flair/creativity on the bench, in turn caused by the lack of midfield flair/creativity he buys.

Massimo did indeed come on, where he played as a striker (whether this was the orders or not I don't know). That would've been fine IF IF IF IF we had the balance in midfield and a bit of pace/skill on the right. But we had Rochemback/George seemingly alternating and neither will ever be a fill-in right winger.

Going off on a tangent a bit am sick of being patronised with this "it is difficult in any area of society and especially in a place like Middlesbrough, for fans to keep forking out the money" line.

No it isn't Steve. People paid the money last year and went to games v Ostrava, Graz, Lisbon. 5000 odd even paid to go to Spain. They are staying away because it's dross, not because of money.

Big_Shot Posted on 22/9 13:38
re: Can't understand these comments

When Maccarone came on we seemingly tried to copy the formation that worked against Arsenal, with Maccarone pulling right. Although as we all saw it didn't work and we looked completely out of idea.

Paulinho Posted on 22/9 13:42
re: Can't understand these comments

Lets be honest, no mater what McClaren says, at least half the people will slag him for it.

"The bloke is in a difficult position.

Does he upset the club/his employers and say that the prices the fans pay is too much for the product the club sells, or does he say the fans should turn up more?

Whatever he says, on whatever subject he will get grief from some quarters. He is always in a no win situation."


Sorry, I've got to take umbridge with this type of statement and highlight that fact that it is, in fact, utter rubbish.

I don't dislike McClaren. In fact people I know who've met him and worked with him describe him as an outstanding individual in many departments.

What I can't stomach (and I have quite a large stomach) is the excuses, platitudes and cliches that seem to accompany every post-match game we should have won.

The players were tired = It's your job to rotate the team, pick the team and manage the squad. Get on with it and beat Wigan.

The players were magnificent, they showed tremendous character = they're footballers, the don't work in the emergency services, use accurate language when describing your teams performance.

The supporters need to be educated = This is how it works. We pay you. If we don't pay you stop calling us supporters. You create something we feel proud of, something that represents our town. You need to create something we can all share, both locally and nationally. What we don't want is for you to create a creed that sees Boateng dribbling it into the corner. You might not have given the instruction but you definitely created the environment.

McClaren and his ilk are the reason football's in the mess it is. A man who thinks fans know nothing of football's fantastically complex workings (an industry so complicated 80% think a qualification is something you get for driving too fast).

MrAngryInKuwait Posted on 22/9 13:45
re: Can't understand these comments

Successful teams play two games a week on a regular basis. If we want success, we need to be able to do this. For a variety of reasons, we don't seem to good enough to handle two games a week.

We either find a remedy, or drop out of these pointless cup competitions, and just do enough in the league to finish one point behind a European place. That way we don't have to worry about playing too many games.

I'd rather see a few good performances than a lot of mediocre ones, and at the end of the day, why try and qualify for something we can't do ourselves justice in? It's a Catch-22 situation.

scoea Posted on 22/9 14:02
re: Can't understand these comments

Grantus - just ask any sports scientist.

ccole Posted on 22/9 14:03
re: Can't understand these comments

Paulinho, your post confirms my statement about half the people slagging him no mater what he says. Best summed up by you saying... "What we don't want is for you to create a creed that sees Boateng dribbling it into the corner"

Even when we are a man down against the champions of Europe with only one player in the box and 1 minute to? What if it went in the middle, keeper get it, boots it up field, and Liverpool bag it. We get beat 2-1 and the whole crowd stand and applaud the Boat for been positive instead of been safe? Three years earlier we lost two gaols to Fulham in the last minute. Perhaps itís a lesson learned?

If Vickers had took the safe option in 97 and put the ball out for a throw in, Robson would have been our first manager to win a cup. Do you think Vickers made the right choice that day?

--- Post edited by ccole on 22/9 14:07 ---

grantus Posted on 22/9 14:03
re: Can't understand these comments

I thought i was.

scoea Posted on 22/9 14:55
re: Can't understand these comments

Not me!!

BossHogg Posted on 22/9 14:58
re: Can't understand these comments

"The players are tired", bla bla bla.. It's fookin September!!!

By the way, what the fook does Bill Beswick do??, does anybody actually know? The team regularly seems unmotivated!!

sasboro Posted on 22/9 15:02
re: Can't understand these comments

have some respect its been a long 5 weeks since the season started even though some of the players had a 2 week break between games recently

BossHogg Posted on 22/9 15:05
re: Can't understand these comments

Sorry Sas

scoea Posted on 22/9 15:08
re: Can't understand these comments

That, in a nutshell, is the misconception. Tiredness is the wrong word and is misused in this context.

sasboro Posted on 22/9 15:12
re: Can't understand these comments

maybe players get tired cos they are so bored of training..etc you know the feeling stuck in a meeting all day and you could easily nod off.
Perhaps training needs some fresh ideas, make them feel excited by training

scoea Posted on 22/9 15:27
re: Can't understand these comments

It is not tiredness!!!!!!!!!

I am astonished that people can't grasp what is a relatively simple concept!

BossHogg Posted on 22/9 15:30
re: Can't understand these comments

What is it then!, a lack of motivation?, or is it that they don't care as they still get paid?

What does Bill Beswick do at MFC???

grantus Posted on 22/9 15:31
re: Can't understand these comments

A 90 minute workout on a Thursday does not, i repeat not, mean that you should not be fully recovered by Sunday. It shouldn't be an emotional thing either, as players are very quickly assimilated into playing football matches at a steady level mentally.

Lead me to a sports scientist to prove otherwise. I think its a total cop out.

sasboro Posted on 22/9 15:33
re: Can't understand these comments

jet lag?

grantus Posted on 22/9 15:36
re: Can't understand these comments

narcolepsy?

sasboro Posted on 22/9 15:37
re: Can't understand these comments

how often do you see players come of a pitch looking like they are physically drained of energy. most look just like when they kick off, apart from a bit of mud on them

grantus Posted on 22/9 15:39
re: Can't understand these comments

Its basically because of one thing in my book. No, only one thing, nothing else counts, doesn't matter, is all just schpiel.

Plain and simple Can't be bothered syndrom.

scoea Posted on 22/9 16:00
re: Can't understand these comments

Two teams play on a Sunday. One has had a game on the previous Thursday. The other has not played for 7 days.

Which team is going to be fitter and sharper?

sasboro Posted on 22/9 16:02
re: Can't understand these comments

so how come bolton won?

fatharrywhite Posted on 22/9 16:04
re: Can't understand these comments

"so how come bolton won?"

cos they were seriously lucky and on another day could quite easily have gotten beat 5-0.

whereas we could easily have been 2 up at half time after pogotetz hit the bar and but for a defensive mistake would have won as well.

next.

BossHogg Posted on 22/9 16:08
re: Can't understand these comments

The managers would have us believe it's a results business :-

Man City v Bolton (0-1)
Wigan v Boro (1-1)

Bolton had a far tougher game and got three points!

next

fatharrywhite Posted on 22/9 16:13
re: Can't understand these comments

they got the 3 points through luck, no two ways about it. we played far better in our game than bolton did in theirs, if pogo's header goes in we're 2 up and cruising.

pointless arguing really cos no doubt if we had done what bolton did on sunday the likes of you would still be on here going on and on about how lucky we were and we didnt deserve it.

--- Post edited by fatharrywhite on 22/9 16:13 ---

BossHogg Posted on 22/9 16:18
re: Can't understand these comments

Ooooh, "the likes of me", well hark you, put your nails away..

I keep being told, by the likes of you , that the result is the most important thing. Well I don't always subscribe to that belief, as I want to enjoy the fayre that I witness!

--- Post edited by BossHogg on 22/9 16:19 ---

sasboro Posted on 22/9 16:22
re: Can't understand these comments

strange how bolton won by luck but when we win it's more than lucky.

notice that in their european game and league game they got the result they needed in the last few minutes of the game..moral of the story is to play until the end of the game and dont settle for a point

scoea Posted on 22/9 16:28
re: Can't understand these comments

Not strange at all Sas. We have won by luck plenty of times, most notably against City two seasons ago.

What is strange is that nobody has yet answered my question.

BossHogg Posted on 22/9 16:31
re: Can't understand these comments

Nor mine Scoea..

What does Bill Beswick do at MFC???

grantus Posted on 22/9 16:40
re: Can't understand these comments

I'll answer scoa, ill give you the answer that you're fishing for too.

Neither team.

2 full days should be enough for half a team of professional players to recover, especially when they dont appear to put in mush effort on the Thursday night anyway. Plus the other half of the team who haven't played.

Bill Beswick, he does the old "Look into my eyes, not around the eyes, etc"

20_Briggsy Posted on 22/9 16:50
re: Can't understand these comments

MrAngryInKuwait - I cant understand your comments. Whats so mind blowing?

scoea Posted on 22/9 17:03
re: Can't understand these comments

Grantus - sorry but you're wrong. As I said, it is scientific fact.

MrAngryInKuwait Posted on 22/9 17:08
re: Can't understand these comments

Briggsy, two main points here. Firstly McClaren saying European games are detrimental to performances by all clubs. Not all, as has been discussed. Boro certainly. But accepting his point, why then do clubs fight so hard to get into Europe? Revenue? Robbing Peter to pay Paul if such interrupts their League form surely?

Successful sides CAN play more than one game in a week. If we want success, then stop bitching about it, and get on with it. We want results, not excuses.

The negative mindset at the club is taking away the players' natural self-belief. They are unmotivated, and expecting to get beat, before they walk out onto the pitch. McClaren and Beswick are supposed to motivate players, not de-motivate them.

tweedle Posted on 22/9 17:11
re: Can't understand these comments

...and if you said it, it must be a "scientific fact".

Mr Supercilious is at it again. Making wild unsubstantiated statements, backed up with no substance or empirical evidence. Oh apart from "I said it".

Water boils at 100 degrees celcius.

grantus Posted on 22/9 17:16
re: Can't understand these comments

If its a fact prove it, give some evidence at least scoa. Justify yourself. Prove it and ill back down, ill say thank you for educating me. Dont do it and look like a fool.

Your move chief.

scoea Posted on 22/9 17:19
re: Can't understand these comments

Hello Tweedle-dumb. You seem to have a real issue with me. It is not scientific fact simply because I said it. I am told by my wife and two of my friends (all of whom are sports scientists) that it is a fact and that is good enough for me. OK?

20_Briggsy Posted on 22/9 17:19
re: Can't understand these comments

"Briggsy, two main points here. Firstly McClaren saying European games are detrimental to performances by all clubs. Not all, as has been discussed. Boro certainly. But accepting his point, why then do clubs fight so hard to get into Europe? Revenue? Robbing Peter to pay Paul if such interrupts their League form surely?"

Yes money is a big factor of european football, more money means buy better players. We proved last year that we can compete in europe and do pretty well in the league. Maybe we would have finished higher if we wernt in europe. We cant say, but I think playing in europe does affect your performance.

Gillandi Posted on 22/9 17:25
re: Can't understand these comments

Mourinho says it.
Wenger says it.
Ferguson says it.
McClaren says it.

Paulinho denies it.
Mr Angry denies it.
Sasboro denies it.
Grantus denies it.


I don't think we need to be taking any bunson burners to any pea-nuts here.

grantus Posted on 22/9 17:31
re: Can't understand these comments

Weel done Tweedle-dee, a justification, some foundation, at last. I have no qualms with you scoa, far from it. I just prefere people to back up there stance, especially when they pronounce it as fact.

That it is because a couple of sports scientists have told you is fair enough. I used to know some sports scientists at University, not the brightest sparks there, hence sports science. Im not saying that they dont know their stuff, but I'll need more to be convinced. Im going to ask a doctor and see what he says, also, I kind of know a physio that used to work for Spurs and QPR, I'll see if he has forgotten about that thing yet and see his opinion.

Im not trying to win, rather, you've given me something to think about. Even if I still dont buy it, by a long shot.

Gillandi Doyle. Football Managers arent exactly the brightest sparks in the community though are they? Ill take that company. You keep your head buried in the sand with the rest of the sheep.

--- Post edited by grantus on 22/9 17:38 ---

sasboro Posted on 22/9 17:33
re: Can't understand these comments

gillandi, you are a gullible fool taken in by the whole football circus of 101 different excuses. The know people like you beleive anything you are told from epople in the game. at your age i would have thought you would know better? ask any ex-pro and they say they like nothing better than playing football. WHat happens is once they pack the game in or leave the sport they then change their tune and end up saying the opposite to what was said when they played the game. It's all just part of the money making machine

--- Post edited by sasboro on 22/9 17:35 ---

Gillandi Posted on 22/9 17:48
re: Can't understand these comments

Sasboro - I played sunday league for 15 years at a decent level so i''m speaking from personal experience. My own flesh and bones told me I couldnt play 3 games a week and be at 100% effectiveness come the third game. Especially when I got into my late 20's. Times that be 8 or 9 players in a team and theres at least a 5% loss in aerobic power in the team as a whole. In such margins games can be decided.

--- Post edited by Gillandi on 22/9 17:50 ---

Gillandi Posted on 22/9 17:55
re: Can't understand these comments

Grantus - "Football Managers arent exactly the brightest sparks in the community though are they?"




No, we'd be better off asking the managers of the local ladies hockey team for advice on the matter or maybe the Bureaux Of Master Carpet Fitters.


You dunce Grantus.

--- Post edited by Gillandi on 22/9 18:29 ---

sasboro Posted on 22/9 17:56
re: Can't understand these comments

i suppose you know better than exprofessionals.
it's about time your realised in football there is a lot of patronising the fans, but it is slowly wearing thin and it's turning fans away from the games. there is only so much bullsh it they wil believe

Gillandi Posted on 22/9 18:00
re: Can't understand these comments

Sasboro - I think YOU are being patronised by football. Also you are being talked about behind your back by it and called lots of rude names. Football really doesn't like your face at all but fortuneatly I get along just fine with it. Thanks for your advice though and take some of mine, quit sooner rather than later. The games making you a misery and a bore.

MyBoro Posted on 22/9 18:01
re: Can't understand these comments

Scoea - perhaps you could ask the sports sientist how James Morrison managed to play three games in the space of six days at this time last year.

How did he ovecome the physical problems he must of suffered at Old trafford, having just come back from Ostrava.

sasboro Posted on 22/9 18:01
re: Can't understand these comments

what a silly childish reply

MyBoro Posted on 22/9 18:03
re: Can't understand these comments

But Gillandi, they did not play three times in a week did they. It was three games in 9 days. And only a couple played in them all.

--- Post edited by MyBoro on 22/9 18:04 ---

Gillandi Posted on 22/9 18:05
re: Can't understand these comments

Sasboro - It's true though. We've had this same argument about players fitness loads of times and i've told you before that players themselves ALWAYS want to play and always say they are fit...it's the nature of the beast with pro footballers but statistics show, and the testimony of all the leading managers in the game, that you will not perform to your toppest ability on a staurday if you've played in midweek.

Gillandi Posted on 22/9 18:06
re: Can't understand these comments

MyBoro - I'm talking in general terms, not specific instances. I'm not even using as an excuse for the Wigan draw.. We were poor there once we'd lost Morrison and our shape.

--- Post edited by Gillandi on 22/9 18:08 ---

MyBoro Posted on 22/9 18:08
re: Can't understand these comments

In general terms did you also not say that Liverpool were fitter in the first game because they had been playing more games

Gillandi Posted on 22/9 18:10
re: Can't understand these comments

Nah i never said that.

MyBoro Posted on 22/9 18:12
re: Can't understand these comments

I know scoea did, but he likes to believe any reason put forward to explain a poor performance.

Gillandi Posted on 22/9 18:13
re: Can't understand these comments

Shame on him, who does he think he is? Some kind of Boro fan or something?

--- Post edited by Gillandi on 22/9 18:13 ---

sasboro Posted on 22/9 18:16
re: Can't understand these comments

Gillandi, your a perfect example of when things are said so many times everyone eventually believes its true..even the players believe it!

--- Post edited by sasboro on 22/9 18:16 ---

Gillandi Posted on 22/9 18:25
re: Can't understand these comments

Not all of it is physical, some of it is psychological. It has a lot to do with raising yourself to certain levels of focus and determination. Getting right up for it twice a week should be easy but thrice and you get some drop off.

Any manager will tell yer that players and teams can have off days when they havent played for a week or two. theyre not physically knackered, they just couldn't get going. I had days like that when I played. Started bad, got worse. Later in the season when the intensity of our midewwek games rises as we advance in the competition it'll get harder still.

Desite what thanti Bill Beswick brigade say, football is a very psychological game.

sasboro Posted on 22/9 18:28
re: Can't understand these comments

i agree about the psycological bit, i mean constant talk of saying players are tired will eventually make them think they are tired. It's like the placebo effect with it all in the mind.

Gillandi Posted on 22/9 18:29
re: Can't understand these comments

There could actually be something in that. If players get a good excuse not to perform they'll use it. Somewhere in their heads will be the message that they can take their foot off the gas tinsy a bit, or a draw wouldn't be a tragedy, coz they've played in Europe in midweek and a hell of a lot of footballers ARE cheats and see football just as a job. Thats why recruitment is so important and buying good pro's of dependable character. Thats part of the reason we find it more difficult now in the transfer market. We put more store in a players personality. We'll make mistakes but if we reduce the amount of wasters we have we'll be more successful. We are quite good at getting rid of the shirkers early on.





--- Post edited by Gillandi on 22/9 18:38 ---

uncle_harry Posted on 22/9 18:30
re: Can't understand these comments

so do you think that when McClaren tries to praise the players hes actually trying to encourage them to do well?

sasboro Posted on 22/9 18:32
re: Can't understand these comments

only for the reserves.

but when i was younger i played twice a week(just 5 a side) and i noticed it was hard work at first but once i reached a level i could run all day .. but then i found beer and stopped.

Still i suppose you know better than ex-professionals?

Psychology players a bigger part than many think, and thats why we have bill beswick as number 2. He should be qualified to be able to take the tiredness fear factor out of it but wont help with smac keep telling the world they are tired

Gillandi Posted on 22/9 18:35
re: Can't understand these comments

sasboro - see edited response above for exapansion on your theme.

WE all know about the pressures in the game now with all the money available. We've seen how teams like Blackburn and Charlton this season are grafting their nuts off in games all of a sudden. They'll be doing well to maintain that intensity all season, if they do it's a major credit to the managers for inspiring it.

See Everton for what happens when you just drop the energy levels a smidgeon.



--- Post edited by Gillandi on 22/9 18:41 ---

Gillandi Posted on 22/9 18:52
re: Can't understand these comments

When Boro arnt up for it and on their game it stands out like a sore thumb to me, as I'm sure it does for every fan of every club. It's not always fatal. If you enjoy the breaks and keep your shape you can still win without hitting your best. Likewise we can run through brick walls in games and still lose. The result only tells part of the tale. I don't think we've been fully at it so far this season in the games ive seen but I know from watching teams under about a dozen managers that we have far fewer "not bothered" days than I'm used to, less than under the last manager anyway. I expect Bill Beswick is the reason for that. Good on him.

--- Post edited by Gillandi on 22/9 20:44 ---

Dick_Emre Posted on 22/9 18:57
re: Can't understand these comments

Footballers and managers want more and more money and to play fewer and fewer games. They are nowt but a bunch of greedy coonts.


So there!

Cobain_94 Posted on 22/9 19:03
re: Can't understand these comments

"physio that used to work for Spurs"

That's like saying you know Kate Moss' drug rehab therapist.

scoea Posted on 22/9 19:22
re: Can't understand these comments

I always love the criticism i get for being a fan! its simple, its accepted by sports science and by the leading minds in the game. it isnt a case of falling for propaganda it simply makes sense.

Paulinho Posted on 22/9 21:21
re: Can't understand these comments

Mourinho: "My family love living in London. It is a fantastic city and a city such as this deserves to host the Olympic Games."

Wenger: "I didn't see that particular incident."

Ferguson: "The lads ran their socks into the ground today." and "If we can play like that every week we'll get some level of consistency."

McClaren: "Tremendous".

Did you know gullible isn't in the dictionary?

grantus Posted on 23/9 0:52
re: Can't understand these comments

Well both me and Martyn Keown thought he was a good enough physio for us.

Dunce, nice Gillandi, friendly yet somehow destructive, beautiful.

Ha. The majority of Football managers will find any old excuse for defeats. If it works then the players can use it too and it can become self perpetuating, an endless unfixable situation after european games, well done Boro for that one, wont it be a miracle if we manage to win one of these games? it will be like Hallalujah!!!! Retards.

the only valid argument is the business about being mentaly fresh and alert. but as a pro footballer, its about conditioning your mind for it.

Cricketers do it for a test match, golfers for a tournament, darts players for a week. Footballers, like the ones we are talking about for 270 minutes, at the very most in 8 or 9 days.

it all just doesn't wash with me. Its excuses for fools.

Something is amiss. Apart from my obviously misfiring brain.

And for those that think football is a game run by honourable, intelligent, insightful individuals, worthy of the status they hold. Stop drinking, you cant hold your booze.

Gillandi Posted on 23/9 1:49
re: Can't understand these comments

Grantus - Firstly, thanks for acknowledging the power of my "dunce" name call..I needed something good in answer to your smart use of the always cutting "doyle."

Anyhoo, you mention cricketers doing what footballers don't seem to be able to do. I think the game is a good case in point for the point i'm trying to prove. I've just watched virtually the entire Ashes series live as it happened on TV and seen how carefully all the senior bowlers, the ones who have been ideal for the conditions, have been very carefully used and not used during any given day of play to keep them at their most effective. Thankfully Shane Warne is an unproffesional shirker who doesn't care enough about his sport to get physically and mentally fit enough to bowl all day or they'd have retained the Ashes. And he's only bowling off 6 yards of run up.

--- Post edited by Gillandi on 23/9 1:50 ---

MrAngryInKuwait Posted on 23/9 6:38
re: Can't understand these comments

Quite simply, our form since last Christmas has been both poor and inconsistent. 6 games won in the league tells it's own story. You can blame injuries for some of it, too many games? bullsh't in my opinion, tactics, boring and negative for a lot of the time, player motivation-more like demotivation, we need positive mind sets, but manager and coaches convince the players they are incapable of playing more than one game a week.

McClaren is a self-proclaimed 'successful' manager, and a lot of people support him and his views. Show me the success. Show me the results (and I don't mean those six games).

We strive for European qualification, and then moan about being in Europe, blaming that for poor league form. Why then are we IN Europe? What is the point when all we do is moan about it, and use it as another in a long and sorry line of excuses for poor form, poor tactics, and poor team selection?

scoea Posted on 23/9 8:09
re: Can't understand these comments

Quite simply, that is rubbish.

You want evidence of McClaren's success. I find that unbelievable given our history compared to the last few years of his reign!

I am certainly not trying to make any sort of excuse for poor performance. What I am saying though is that we, as a club, have to accept that playing in a European nmidweek game will inevitably affect our performance against a team that hasn't had that midweek game.

I can't for the life of me understand what is so difficult to accept about that. These players are finely tuned to the extent that every part of their fitness and physiology is scrutinised. They are so tuned that even a small drop in fitness, sharpness (or whatever you want to call it)against another team will affect performance. Even if is by a tiny percentage it will still affect the game given the high level and intensity of Premiership football.

Just look at an individual player like Boateng. If he has played one more competitive game than his counterpart on the opposition's team then surely you must accept that the other player will have an edge and freshness that Boateng doesn't?

BossHogg Posted on 23/9 9:28
re: Can't understand these comments

"What I am saying though is that we, as a club, have to accept that playing in a European nmidweek game will inevitably affect our performance against a team that hasn't had that midweek game."

So if we don't batter Blunderland after their midweek League Cup match,including extra time, what excuses will he have then?

OverTheTopAussie Posted on 23/9 9:35
re: Can't understand these comments

BossHogg, you couldn't even just say "beat". That wouldn't satisfy you would it. If we win 1-0 you'll say it's not good enough. We should have "battered" them. After all they've played mid-week. You are unbelievable!!!!1 People like you & MAIK will NEVER be content.


(Edits thread: Ridiculous, negative BossHogg rant confused with ridiculous, negative MAIK rant.)






By the way, great thread MAIK. Best we've had in a long time.


--- Post edited by OverTheTopAussie on 23/9 9:38 ---

scoea Posted on 23/9 9:57
re: Can't understand these comments

BossHogg - no excuse whatsoever. I would add that the UEFA game was not anexcuse for the Wigan game either. We should have won but mistakes from McClaren, Ugo, Gate and Schwarz cost us.

Max_Headroom Posted on 23/9 10:18
re: Can't understand these comments

100!!

GtownBeerBelly Posted on 23/9 10:44
re: Can't understand these comments

Idle, overrated 4rseholes!

GtBB - Has the last word. FACT

grantus Posted on 23/9 11:02
re: Can't understand these comments

What we are talking about here is one of the contributory factors, all be it a small one, of why the sport that is Football, in England at least is in decline.

repeated poor performances, lack of passion from the players, endless excuses from average human beings who happen to manage teams of very fit, very dumb sportsmen.

Indicative of the state of the game.

Footballers are supposed to play football, if they cant, if it too physical, too hard for them, poor little buggers, then something needs to change. Im sick and tired of excuses.

scoea Posted on 23/9 11:09
re: Can't understand these comments

I don't think you're taking in what is being said. Of course they are in a privileged position and of course they are physically capable of playing games every day. However, you are demanding that these players perform at the peak of their powers every game when it is proven to be physically impossible for them to do it.

One of the biggest problems in the game is the unrealistic demands that fans have, largely because of the way Sky has packaged the game.

Before Sky, it was pot luck (particularly with Boro) as to what sort of performance you would get. Sometimes there would be great football but equally the games could be rubbish. However, the matchday experience was always a good one, for me anyway because of other things - a sense of community, camaraderie and being able to relate to the players on the pitch.

Sky has changed all that and now fans are more demanding than ever. Sadly, those demands are impossible to achieve.

That is not an excuse or representative of a lack of passion but more a reflection of the unrealistic expectations created by Sky. Football for me has never been about foam hands, glamour or entertainment.

BossHogg Posted on 23/9 11:16
re: Can't understand these comments

"BossHogg, you couldn't even just say "beat". That wouldn't satisfy you would it. If we win 1-0 you'll say it's not good enough. We should have "battered" them. After all they've played mid-week. You are unbelievable!!!!1 People like you and MAIK will NEVER be content."

Oh come on OverTheTopAussie, it's Friday, give us a smile..

MrAngryInKuwait Posted on 23/9 11:19
re: Can't understand these comments

This is McClaren's fourth season in charge, and he is under the spotlight for a very good reason. This is his team now. He's bought, sold, and let a few of the youngsters through into the first team.

We have had limited success in a Carling Cup win which was very much devalued by the way we gave it no respect in our very first defence of our first trophy.

That cup win was our spring board into Europe, and now we're in Europe for the 2nd season in a row, by default in my opinion, fans are still waiting to see a bit of consistency, instead of inconsistency. Instead of moving forward, we are going backwards, using the mere fact of being in Europe as an excuse for poor result domestically as well as in the cup competitions. I'm fed up of excuses, and that's all they are.

After 4 seasons, McClaren should know the players and know a preferred system to get the best out of them. It's time to prove his reputation, and make Boro a force to be reckoned with.

The only people who agree with all this sports fitness bullsh't are the players and physios themselves, none of whom seems to want to give the fans value for their fantastic salaries. Scoea, tell your missus to chuck her textbooks in the bin, and try talking to some of the older players who were around before all these new theories were invented to make their lives easier.

A lot laugh at the 3 Legends, but these guys are all ex-pros. They've been there, and done it. So I value their opinions over so-called experts like McClaren and Beswick, who are just trying to excuse the poor performances and results.

His fixation with a rotation system, resting players who are TOLD they need a rest, never seems to generate the results intended, and by constantly tinkering with the lineup, we will never have a settled 'team', just a bunch of talented individuals, who don't know how each other plays.

grantus Posted on 23/9 11:23
re: Can't understand these comments

scoa, i agree with that sentiment wholeheartedly.

But I watch the matches too. I dont see players physically giving 100% for 90 minutes, the game isn't as fast as that. We generally play a pedestrian paced football, the only match Ive seen this season where the players put in the physical effort i expect was against arsenal. Its the only game when he closed players down, pressed and the players could rightly be tired at the end.

BossHogg Posted on 23/9 11:33
re: Can't understand these comments

"Football for me has never been about foam hands, glamour or entertainment"

Items 1 and 2 I agree with, item 3 is an obligation when fans are being asked to pay inflated tickets prices!

When it was £4 to get in the holgate you could live with it, but when it's £31 to get in the 'New' holgate, copyright A Brownlee, it's unacceptable.. Football fans aren't thick!, and club proganda only serves to annoy fans who are more intelligent than they give them credit for!!

scoea Posted on 23/9 11:49
re: Can't understand these comments

That is very subjective though BossHogg. o matter what the price I don't go to the games asking to be entertained. I go to get behind my local team. Whilst that doesn't mean the same as it once did, it is still the reason I go.

In any event, I still maintain that we play football the right way. We get the ball down, we pass and we score goals. That entertains me.

skiprat Posted on 23/9 11:50
re: Can't understand these comments

How can some people not see that's it's a different, more physical demanding game in the year 2005 than it was was Slaven, Macdonald and Gates were playing?

Did you see the state of some of the players from there era?

I also don't understand how you can just simply dismiss a proven science? Oh yes, that's right, Sports scientists weren't the bright ones at Uni, that must make their profession a joke.

skiprat Posted on 23/9 11:53
re: Can't understand these comments

I've asked this about 15 times on this board now and still haven't had a response to it, I wonder why...

"If entertainment is what you crave and value for money, value for your £31, if you came and saw Boro win 15-0, with 56 shots on goal, would you then turn round and give the club more money? If you are seeing more than your moneys worth then why not? People would glad y ask for money back if the performance is rubbish, so why not the other way?"

peako_from_the_boro Posted on 23/9 12:01
re: Can't understand these comments

Mt AIK,

The McClaren era is clearly the most exciting time ever to be a Boro fan, the times flying by, its his 5th season in charge.

grantus Posted on 23/9 12:17
re: Can't understand these comments

skiprat, the reason why the question is never answered is that the answer is no. It's not relelvent, we pay too much for football, period. Its more justifiable if the football is entertaining, doesn't mean it should cost more. It should be a fair price, which it isn't anymore.

Yeah, they were a bunch of dummies compared to those studying medicine, or even real sciences, id listen to these people first.

also, i totally disagree that this is the most exciting time to be a Boro supporter. Rioch's era, from 1986 will never be challenged for me, that felt special, we had a bond with the club, the players, we needed each other and we succeeded.

sasboro Posted on 23/9 12:21
re: Can't understand these comments

"The McClaren era is clearly the most exciting time ever to be a Boro fan, the times flying by, its his 5th season in charge."

but is that true, obviously not in the history of mfc it aint true. how about the times under mannion,harwick or clough. a lot more goals in them days

BossHogg Posted on 23/9 12:23
re: Can't understand these comments

McClarens era the most exciting?, your entitled to believe that, but personally I just can't see it!! Riochs time here will live with me forever..

Skiprat, watching any sporting event is a gamble when it comes to being entertained, and a lot of fans don't believe watching Boro is worth the gamble, hence the falling attendances this season..

scoea Posted on 23/9 12:27
re: Can't understand these comments

That is an unreasonable and offensive generalisation grantus.

The sports scientists I know (including my wife) are highly intelligent and passionate about their work. Saying that you would listen to 'proper' scientists over a sports scientist in relation to this question is like saying that you would get a vet to give you a health check!

As for the Rioch era - I agree, it was a special time that will always hold a place in my heart. However, it is nothing compared to the unrivalled success we are currently having. I think there are too many people that look back on the past through rose tinted glasses. The 96/97 season for example was not packed full of champagne football. It was exciting and controversial yes but for the most part the football was shocking.

--- Post edited by scoea on 23/9 12:27 ---

skiprat Posted on 23/9 12:30
re: Can't understand these comments

I agree that it's too much, as I've said in other threads. My point about paying more for a better 'product' is still valid though, if that's all you're interested in.

sasboro Posted on 23/9 12:34
re: Can't understand these comments

what no one is talking into account is that managers are now slowing the tempo of games down. i think its caused by foreign managers and players coming into the game and i think thats having an effect on the entertainment thing. English fans like to see high paced football, with end to end action and players busting a gut to get forward. Now its all about slow build up and passing it about in midfield and waiting for the defence to make a mistake or hit them on the counter attack. it's become dull entertainment

scoea Posted on 23/9 12:34
re: Can't understand these comments

That leads me to a point I made earlier in the week. There is a new breed of fan that perhaps has only been around in the 'Sky' era and is much more demanding than others.

Sas - it's always been that way. Entertainment in football is and always has been hit and miss.

--- Post edited by scoea on 23/9 12:36 ---

BossHogg Posted on 23/9 12:36
re: Can't understand these comments

It's far from all I'm interested in, but in my opinion the standard, and style, of our football is poor! If the standard were better we would sell out this season..

It's no co-incidence that hardly anybody sings his name either, and they are one's who can still be arsed to go to the games..

grantus Posted on 23/9 12:38
re: Can't understand these comments

No offence scoa, just fishing .

Like i said yesterday i'll get back to you with my findings, if i get around to it.

The football currently being played across the top flight is a totally new experience for English football, its as though the heart has been ripped out of it, for the first time. This is the most uninspiring Premiership / top flight that i can remember, we (Boro) play a part in it being that way.

Dont believe it has anything to do with people being demanding because of Sky really. People who have been going to the match for decades have had enough. Its not because of Sky either.

--- Post edited by grantus on 23/9 12:42 ---

sasboro Posted on 23/9 12:41
re: Can't understand these comments

and if you cut through all the hype,marketting and PR..is the quality of players that much better than 10-30 years ago. Part from maybe chelsea,manutd and arsenal. If you look back we actually won more european competition in those days which suggest the standard was higher and players better quality. I think we have a lot more show pony type footballers in the premiership these days.

skiprat Posted on 23/9 12:42
re: Can't understand these comments

There's plenty of people sing his name BossHogg. Just because you block it out.

STEVE McCLAREN'S RED AND WHITE ARMY
OOOH AH
STEVE McCLAREN'S RED AND WHITE ARMY
OOOH AH
STEVE McCLAREN'S RED AND WHITE ARMY
OOOH AH

scoea Posted on 23/9 12:45
re: Can't understand these comments

But weren't you saying just the other day Sas that you wanted to see tricks and flicks from these show pony types?

I honestly think its a case of people looking back through rose tinted glasses. Do people not remember the Arsenal title wins under George Graham?

grantus - maybe Sky and the glitz has changed the mindset of the older generation of fans as well. That coupled with the price of tickets is causing the problem.

BTW - can I add that this is the best thread I've been involved in for some time.

BossHogg Posted on 23/9 12:50
re: Can't understand these comments

"I honestly think its a case of people looking back through rose tinted glasses. Do people not remember the Arsenal title wins under George Graham?"

I do, do you remember the 2-0 win at Anfield in 1989?? to win the league, now that was entertainment!!

sasboro Posted on 23/9 12:57
re: Can't understand these comments

remember the 70's and 80' when team like forest and liverpool dominated the european cup? i think ipswich won a european competition in the 80's. how many english teams have won a european competition in the last 10 years? man utd?

BossHogg Posted on 23/9 12:59
re: Can't understand these comments

Sas, don't forget Liverpool last season, plus the Super Cup this, plus the UEFA under Houllier about 3 years ago?

Red_Slim Posted on 23/9 13:35
re: Can't understand these comments

Good thread.

The Rioch years were my first real 'regular' years so perhaps my reminisence has the honeymoon period about it, but I totally agree that those years and those of LL were great in the sense of the overall experience, the sense of belonging and the general buzz of the place.

As someone pointed out quite rightly, the football at times was awful. I still looked forward to the match though because of the experience. You seem to be looking for an answer to your question of 'product'Skiprat. I can only speak for myself but I believe I understand your point though the point is the football product has many facets.

The 'product' to many was the matchday experience. The overall experience being the emphasis, hence the old timers still going along dsespite the football. As a cold example away from our footballing world, I used to love the TT Races.

The TT is not the same 'as it used to be'. Personal opinion of course. If a lad who'd never been before went now he'd probably think it was a bit wild, a blast. The bikes are quicker, there's more emphasis on safety (despite being the mecca of Germans with no will to live and a bike they can't ride), the pubs and clubs are catering for both blokes, women and couples. The white helmeted Douglas police are a little stricter on public order, (though still top blokes) and the high street seems less wild, a little safer though still bustling with activity.

My point is, when I first went, it was a different kind of TT. To me it was a more exciting experience, perhaps because it was a little wilder, a little less safe and little more male orientated in the after race entertainment. Not everyone's cup of tea I appreciate.

Of course the argument of what is the product with specific reference to our club is going to be contentious. To me its all about the matchday experience. It isn't just about the football. I don't mind being in the minority, but the football at the moment is fine, despite the results. Its not always exciting, but that could be said of most seasons in the past 20 years. The matchday experience though ... to me its kak in comparison with the 86 - 94 era. Its not just down to the doey eyed 'wasn't it good in the Holgate' selective memory c r a p. It feels sanitized, safe and restrictive now.

The football plays a part, but as a matachday experience goes, the 'product' is not as good as it used to be. Its everyone's cup of tea now, not too sweet, never too hot, comes with a saucer and of course designed to be palatable to as many people as possible; doesn't taste as good to me though.

MrAngryInKuwait Posted on 23/9 14:04
re: Can't understand these comments

Scoea, looking at the progress made by the club, we have fantastic training facilities, brilliant sports physios, sports psychologists, coaches, and if you believe McClaren, the tactics and quality of players has never been so good.

Why then are the results so bad? Why do we still suffer from so many injuries? Why then can't players play more than 90 minutes of football in a week? Why can't we motivate these players into justifying their salaries? Why are performances so negative and inconsistent?

We get endless excuses, but the results never seem to consistently change. Which means the excuses used, are not the real reasons behind the poor form, for if they were, surely McClaren would address them, and cure the problem?

Regardless of the justifications used by McClaren, for his tactics and team selection, the end results don't bear them out. We should be playing better than we do, and the fact we can't do this, is the reason many people are staying away.

sasboro Posted on 23/9 14:10
re: Can't understand these comments

"Scoea, looking at the progress made by the club, we have fantastic training facilities, brilliant sports physios, sports psychologists, coaches, and if you believe McClaren, the tactics and quality of players has never been so good."

thats seems to be the general pattern with a lot of clubs these days, new stadiums,fancy training grounds..etc witht he influx of trv money a lot of clubs have changed and not unique to boro

scoea Posted on 23/9 14:17
re: Can't understand these comments

Why then are the results so bad?

Are they? I would gladly accept the Cup win, the European results and the league results of the last couple of seasons for another 10 years. How can you possibly say that results have been bad given the success we've had?

Why do we still suffer from so many injuries?

Bad luck. Plain and simple. Oh, and other clubs have injuries too you know.

Why then can't players play more than 90 minutes of football in a week?

They can. Just last week we got 4 points and won 2-0 in Europe.

Why can't we motivate these players into justifying their salaries?

The success we have had suggests that we can.

Why are performances so negative and inconsistent?

They aren't negative as evidenced by our goals scored column. Inconsistency is present in all but the top 3 clubs.

grantus Posted on 23/9 14:19
re: Can't understand these comments

Red Slim, great point fella.

Give me a matchday experience that will be exciting and great craic.
Give me stadium atmosphere that is exciting and great craic.
Give me football that is exciting and we have a crack at it.

Give me one of these at least, please. Do we have any anymore?

About the injuries, Newcastle have had very high levels of hamstring injuries over the last couple of years. Some would also put this down to bad luck, the club however, have finally identified, in their wisdom, that is because of the new training turf that was laid a couple of years ago and are going to do something about it.

Until every stone is turned, to put it down to bad luck will never fix the proble, will it?

--- Post edited by grantus on 23/9 14:22 ---