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moxzin Posted on 29/9 23:41
This country is 72% Christian

and yet any mention of Christian principles on Question Time drew large groans, heckles and jeers. We're happy to hear Clarke and Hewitt drone on about nothing in particular, but mention religion and you should "gerroff." Weird.

Have to admit though, I nearly choked on my drink when I tuned into Question Time late and heard someone start an answer with "Well our Lord Jesus Christ healed the sick and...". Surreal really.

Its also very hard to believe these days that non-Christians are the 18% minority. Take away a million Muslims, and a few more Sikhs, Hindus, Buddhists, Shinto's etc and atheists are a very small sector of our society.

You wouldn't think so, would you?

shaun_84 Posted on 29/9 23:43
re: This country is 72% Christian

Come on let me make the link to the point of this and avoid messing about... Christians >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jews >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Israel

jeff_potato Posted on 29/9 23:44
re: This country is 72% Christian

Only 7 million of those Christians attend Church though.

longpig Posted on 29/9 23:44
re: This country is 72% Christian

how is it counted though?

i am technically a catholic on paper but no one has ever asked me to declare since i had an opinion.

The_River Posted on 29/9 23:45
re: This country is 72% Christian

If that figure is correct, then the 72% includes a hell of a lot of lapsed/relaxed/non-practising Christians.

Revol_Tees Posted on 29/9 23:47
re: This country is 72% Christian

A lot of us have no choice. Me and my friends all went to a C of E primary school and are all baptised. I even come from a partly practicing Christian family. But I do not see myself as Christian. How many of those 72% really believe in it? And of those, how many actually act on their belief? That figure is very misleading.

For what it's worth, I'm agnostic. I have a spiritual side, but I don't know exactly how to express it (or what there is to express). I suspect a lot of people think there's "something" out there, or that that life has some kind of deeper meaning than consumerism, but it's not something we're encouraged to discuss.

--- Post edited by Revol_Tees on 29/9 23:54 ---

jax_1 Posted on 29/9 23:50
re: This country is 72% Christian

Do you mean to say that 72% of the population of this supposedly educated country, still believe in a supreme being?

I can't believe that.


I bet there were more Jedi knights registered on the last census, than white christians.

--- Post edited by jax_1 on 29/9 23:51 ---

shaun_84 Posted on 29/9 23:51
re: This country is 72% Christian

Are you saying other religions don't? I thought that was the whole point!

sasboro Posted on 29/9 23:52
re: This country is 72% Christian

out of all my friends hardly any go to church and even less of them are christians. must more like 20-30%

bubblesmfc Posted on 29/9 23:54
re: This country is 72% Christian

Bollox.

What was someone froma releigious group doing on a serious political debate programme anyway?He shoud be on Sunday mornings talking to Harry Secombe....or Sooty and Sweep.

green_beret20 Posted on 29/9 23:54
re: This country is 72% Christian

The man was a tit. It was question time about politics, not an excuse to squeeze in at every opportunity, his one religious aim.

I'm a Christian but I don't fell it necessary where every time I'm asked a question I need to quote the bible, prior to ranting.

br14 Posted on 29/9 23:54
re: This country is 72% Christian

I find it equally astonishing that apparently intelligent people are so dogmatic about there not being a "supreme being".

Are you suggesting that there is no possibility of life in the entire Universe (or beyond ) that may be superior in intelligence or abilities to ours?

To be so sure of things and so free of doubt. How I wish I was still so innocent.

Cobain_94 Posted on 29/9 23:57
re: This country is 72% Christian

I would say no offence but what I'm about to say will probably offend you. Religion in my opinion is hypercritical b_ollocks invented by people a couple of thousand years ago to control people.

Another thing, our god loves all makind equally, that is of course except if you don't believe in him in which case you're going to burn in hell in unimaginable torture for all eternity when you die. Sounds like a lovely chap.

In answer to the above post, yes there will be life more intelligent then our own in the Universe, whether it has any resembelance to the boll_ocks written in the koran and the bible is another matter though.

--- Post edited by Cobain_94 on 29/9 23:59 ---

bubblesmfc Posted on 29/9 23:58
re: This country is 72% Christian

Here, here.

red_rebel Posted on 29/9 23:59
re: This country is 72% Christian

On the form 72% may have ticked 'Christian' but that doesn't mean they are practicing, committed or even understand the question.

For one thing because there isn't a box for 'got married inChurch but haven't set foot inside for years'.

Soem people tick it with cultural rather than religious implications, seeing themslves as indiginous white population as opposed to muslim, hindu, buddhist or other.

Most should probably tick 'other' meaning they are generally secular but will take Christmas and Easter eggs but don't give me that morality, abstinence and helpingother claptrap.

sasboro Posted on 30/9 0:01
re: This country is 72% Christian

cobain, i like your style!

shaun_84 Posted on 30/9 0:02
re: This country is 72% Christian

Are you..

a muslim? err no way. mentalists
a buddist? yeah, right...
a jew? hehe
an etc etc? nah!
a christian? England! yep, that's me

Are you a Christian? Stupid bloody Bible bashers!

jax_1 Posted on 30/9 0:02
re: This country is 72% Christian

"Are you suggesting that there is no possibility of life in the entire Universe (or beyond ) that may be superior in intelligence or abilities to ours?"


Not at all Br, I think there is more chance of that scenario actually occurring, than there being an omnipresent 'god', maker of all things, type peep.
I just don't go for that rubbish at all.
It's an emotional crutch. Fine if you need that sort of thing but personally I prefer to take responsibility for myself.
I prefer science to religion in any case.


Agreed Cobain.

GeordieRacer Posted on 30/9 0:17
re: This country is 72% Christian

And where does it say if you dont believe in god youre going to hell, isnt there a difference between living a life of sin, so to speak and not believing in god.

--- Post edited by GeordieRacer on 30/9 0:25 ---

shaun_84 Posted on 30/9 0:21
re: This country is 72% Christian

There's no grey area, my friend, it's all black and white either you're in it or you're not and I'm afraid the outsiders do go to hell to meet the devil. I'm not sure how he'd greet you, I mean in some ways you'd be his mate because you were on his side. He might recommend a special 'only slightly hot' corner to satanists because they were his best mates. Or maybe he is just pure evil and would taunt their goth looks as they burned forever (which is impossible, i might add)

tees_tug Posted on 30/9 0:37
re: This country is 72% Christian

Most people do not know what they are or what division of Christianty they come from.

Ask them what they are, they will reply, Church of England.

Now take Middlesbrough for instance. The second highest Catholic population to Liverpool. That was the Irish immigrants. But Middlesbrough was also built by Welsh Methodists, Scottish Presbyterians, German protestants and a few others that migrated to our town.

Middlesbrough had a wealth of small churches. Through time we moved away from organised religion. Thankfully.

Our people are religious only in a ceremonial way. No faith, just a nice backdrop for our weddings and 'Christenings'.

We have moved on. And no longer wish to be dictated to by any sort of unelected priest.

JonMc Posted on 30/9 0:39
re: This country is 72% Christian

I suspect that moxin's post was about heritage.

If we don't stand up for our national heritage then we will be ripe for the taking by those who hold their reigious beliefs more dearly that we do ourselves.

I'm not a committed Christian myself but I'm fed up of hearing about school nativity plays being annexed because other religious groups find it offensive, that we no longer open school days with an assmbly that once began with a daily prayer. We might not believe in the strict sense of the word but it really does no harm eh.

I hope I don't see a return to the day when we bend to making fish signs on street corners because it will be the only way to communicate what is our national faith.

A spurious point? Mebbys. But guffawing at our heritage is, imo, the thin end of the wedge.

littlejimmy Posted on 30/9 0:40
re: This country is 72% Christian

Am I the only one to spot that the non-Christian minority should be 28%, not 18%?

Carry on.

shaun_84 Posted on 30/9 0:43
re: This country is 72% Christian

don't twist those stats, lj!

jax_1 Posted on 30/9 0:47
re: This country is 72% Christian

Now you have caught me out JohnMc. I agree with you as regards our nativities, harvest festivals etc, being sidelined as they have been of late. More out of tradition than religion as far as I am concerned.

there is always a fair amount of hypocrisy involved with these things though I have found. Like on one occasion that I know of, a happy clappy set her lip up at a kids Halloween 'do' but was quite happy to see drinking and gambling at a different occasion.

Doesn't make any sense to me.

littlejimmy Posted on 30/9 0:51
re: This country is 72% Christian

"A cult is what a large congregation call a small congregation."

I like that quote. Was on the TV last night, I think.

I think people sigh and moan because they think that religious types are trying to brian-wash us.

JonMc Posted on 30/9 1:00
re: This country is 72% Christian

Wellll. In reponse Jax I can only say that the happy clappy in question is part of the problem. Halloween is my favourite festival even though it's essentially very non Christian.

Moderation in all things I think but common sense more so. And to me it's the lack of common sense that is the problem. I am traditionally a bit of a lefty. A bit of a hippy. But I see the way things are changing, and you're dead on with what you say about tradition rather any any meaningful religious significanece.

But I do feel increasingly that it's time that we as a country stand up for ourselves a bit more.

GtownBeerBelly Posted on 30/9 1:20
re: This country is 72% Christian

Are some of you saying that being religious bars you from sensible political discussion? People with their heads in the clouds cannot possibly see what is going on. When religious folk engage in politics is it a sign of ethical disquiet? What is worrying them, that we are travelling on a wrong road or that our own road doesn't seem to include them.

br14 Posted on 30/9 1:37
re: This country is 72% Christian

What is science, if not a religion?



LJ Who is Brian and what is he trying to wash?

--- Post edited by br14 on 30/9 1:41 ---

jax_1 Posted on 30/9 1:42
re: This country is 72% Christian

There is a very big difference between science and religion Br14, at least where science is concerned it seeks to prove the theories involved. Nothing is just taken for granted.
And, if there is no difference, why were so many scientists burned as heretics during the middle ages?

jax_1 Posted on 30/9 1:43
re: This country is 72% Christian

Let me be the first to say..........................






















Fweee Bwian

br14 Posted on 30/9 1:53
re: This country is 72% Christian

Much of science is founded upon the assumption that earlier theories are proven. In many cases, our theories nicely fit the metrics, and we pronounce them fact.

But in every generation 'science' reveals knowledge that suggests earlier scientific belief was unfounded.

At one time we were taught that the atom is the smallest indivisible bit of matter. Then we split it. Now, theres more smaller bits than you can shake a stick at.

In the area of astronomic physics (or whatever thats called) this seems to be particularly true.

Time bending and stuff like that. Seems to me it raises more questions than it answers.

For example, is it possible for existence beyond the human boundaries of time. Where does the universe end anyway or does it end?

More to the point. Who gives a damn? (if you'll pardon me for using a religious expletive).

--- Post edited by br14 on 30/9 1:55 ---

jax_1 Posted on 30/9 1:59
re: This country is 72% Christian

but surely to question and keep seeking answers to things is, infinitely preferrably to just readily accepting that an infinite being exists, without question?

br14 Posted on 30/9 2:00
re: This country is 72% Christian

I agree entirely that "to question and keep seeking answers to things is, infinitely preferable".

The point is, if there is any doubt, which bet gives the best return?

samizdat Posted on 30/9 2:25
re: This country is 72% Christian

"I do not think the existence of the Christian God any more probable than the existence of the Gods of Olympus or Valhalla. To take another illustration: nobody can prove that there is not between Earth and Mars a china teapot revolving in an elliptic orbit, but nobody thinks this sufficiently likely to be taken into account in practice. I think the Christian God just as unlikely."

Bertrand Russell

br14 Posted on 30/9 2:59
re: This country is 72% Christian

I would imagine we now could prove one way or another with a fair degree of accuracy that there is not a china teapot orbiting between the Earth and Mars. Or if not now then at some point in the near future (depending upon the size of the said teapot).

However, the fact that you quote Mr.Russell, instead of providing reasoned arguments of your own says much about your own inability to defend your beliefs.

Belief in "science" or in anything else is still belief. For the most part we are unable to defend our beliefs either way, and must resort to using sources we consider more acceptable than ourselves.

i.e If Bertrand Russell says so, it must be true.

I for one however, am not willing to accept the Gospel according to Mr. Rusell in it's entirety, though I invite you to prove to me why I should.

I do not feel the need to defend either belief in a supreme "creator" or in "science" because I can do neither adequately.

So far, I havent seen anyone on this board that can do so either.

Just people who spout a lot of dogma one way or the other.

samizdat Posted on 30/9 3:24
re: This country is 72% Christian

The china teapot is far too small to be detected with the most powerful instruments. if it is ever proved not to be orbiting between Earth and Mars then it must be orbiting further away and beyond the reach of human detection. I do not have to prove the existence of the china teapot. It is a matter of personal faith, and it is sheer intellectual arrogance of anybody to assert that there is no such thing as the china teapot since neither you nor anybody else can prove it does not exist. To dismiss somebody's beliefs because they quote from Bertrand Russell whose writings have been divinely inspired by the china teapot itself suggests to me that you are evil incarnate.

br14 Posted on 30/9 3:34
re: This country is 72% Christian

I am the evil incarnate.

And my primary Apostle is Bertrand Russell.

He sits at my side watching and smiling as his teachings spread across the globe.

One day the Russellites will conquer the world and their leader Betrand will arrive on a white horse and lead his disciples into the promised land.

All men and women will be philosophers and be good at math.

Join us and look forward to a time when 72% of the UK will be Russells.

PS. The China Teapot is in fact a galactic supercruiser but has stealth technology.

--- Post edited by br14 on 30/9 3:35 ---

--- Post edited by br14 on 30/9 3:36 ---

zaphod Posted on 30/9 8:08
re: This country is 72% Christian

In my experience, there are enormous numbers of people in this country who will claim to be Christian when push comes to shove, but really have little idea what Christianity is. Most of them think being a Christian means a generalised and largely passive belief in some sort of a supreme being/force and a preference for good over evil.

People like the former Bishop of Durham (and others of similar views) have just confused most British people by spouting vague platitudes and calling it Christianity, so that there is no clear perception among the British public of what being a Christian actually involves. Probably only about 10% to 15% of the population is actually Christian (i.e. able to say the Apostles' creed and mean it). The big difference nowadays is that church attendance is largely composed of genuine Christian believers, whereas in the past it was a social requirement to go.

BTW, there were more people who entered Jedi Knight on the census form than entered Jewish. One of them was my daughter, who is a Christian, but felt the Government had no right to ask such a question.

Chutney Posted on 30/9 8:24
re: This country is 72% Christian

Interesting that moxy kicked this off then disappeared. Obviously a stir rather than any great desire for debate.

Apparently the entire nation was in mourning when Diana died. I don't know any of them either.

Chutney Posted on 30/9 8:25
re: This country is 72% Christian

And conversely, zaphod, there are a great number who know plenty about what Christianity is, but just aren't. I'd count myself in that group to a certain extent.

The_Commisar Posted on 30/9 8:26
re: This country is 72% Christian

Key point, our belief, and laws, are based around a Roman version of Christianity, which is based on individual responsibility, the rule of law, and democracy.
Other relegeons, and the cultures that follow them, don't have the same belief system.
Islam has no seperation between political and relegeous authority.
When ever there has been an attempt to libk the two (political and relegoeus authority) in the west, theres been a secular challenge to it, and releigeous authority usually came out worse.

zaphod Posted on 30/9 8:32
re: This country is 72% Christian

True, Chutney, but such people don't call themselves Christian.

Commissar, the principles you mention are not those of Roman Christianity, but of the English version of Protestantism. This is why Englishness is so different from the characters of most of our continental brethren (with the honourable exception of the Dutch).

--- Post edited by zaphod on 30/9 8:36 ---

blotonthelandscape Posted on 30/9 8:33
re: This country is 72% Christian

I will admit to not being the brightest spark in the morning, but if 72% are and 18% arn't what are the other 10%?

Chutney Posted on 30/9 8:34
re: This country is 72% Christian

True enough, zaph. I was really making the point to further muddy the waters around how useful that figure of 72% was in presuming anything.

Buggerlugs Posted on 30/9 8:36
re: This country is 72% Christian

Like others have said the statistic is worthless. This is a secular country not a Christian one and that's a good thing. It's as sign of a developing civilisation.

Was the guy on QT that horrible hate filled bearded bloke who heads Christian Voice. It't funny but some of the meanest spirited people you could ever wish to meet are devout Christians.

dog_go_woof Posted on 30/9 8:40
re: This country is 72% Christian

QUESTION - Does the fact the The Bible (The New Testament, that is) was written around fifty years after the death of Christ, make it less believable than The Koran, which was written by Mohammed himself?

zaphod Posted on 30/9 8:42
re: This country is 72% Christian

Chutney, you wouldn't be included in the 72%. The 72% is probably only useful as an indication of those who are vaguely and passively sympathetic to Christianity.

zaphod Posted on 30/9 8:58
re: This country is 72% Christian

Dog, the earliest books of the New Testament were written about 20 years after Jesus' death. All of them were written during the lifetimes of the people who were with him during his ministry. The credibility of the New Testament is based on the fact that some of the books are eye-witness accounts of events that provide evidence that Jesus was who he said he was.

The Quran was not written directly by Mohammed, but mostly by his followers, a lot of it after his death. Apparently Mohammed was illiterate and used a scribe to write down his divinely inspired words. One of the scribes abandoned Islam on the grounds that it couldn't be divinely inspired because Mohammed kept revising it. The Quran contains no evidence to prove Mohammed was divinely inspired: it is just a record what he said and did. Mohammed never did anything that couldn't be explained in purely human terms and despite the fact he claimed to be a prophet, he never prophesied anything.

dog_go_woof Posted on 30/9 9:03
re: This country is 72% Christian

That's nice, but pretty much what I expected to get as an answer. It's also nice to see the modernisation of Christianity is in full swing. (See below)

Link: I-God

zaphod Posted on 30/9 9:14
re: This country is 72% Christian

Dog, if it's what you expected, why was your original post so inaccurate?

Baffling.

Kilburn Posted on 30/9 9:17
re: This country is 72% Christian

Like Buggerlugs, I too find it strange that so many of the people who proclaim themselves as Christian, are the most reactionary, judgmental, intolerant and avaricious.

Maybe they are attracted to Christianity because of the belief that as long as they repent their sins before God, they can do what they like.

zaphod Posted on 30/9 9:24
re: This country is 72% Christian

Kilburn, who are these people you're talking about? There are indeed such people in the church, especially in the US, but they are far from typical, despite being rather vocal.

sasboro Posted on 30/9 9:40
re: This country is 72% Christian

when all these different gods form different religions decided to create us did they have a big fight about it? or was it contracted out by a bigger god?

Kilburn Posted on 30/9 9:40
re: This country is 72% Christian

Zaphod, certainly in the US, but also elsewhere.

In the UK, the people I refer to are likely not regular worshippers, or if they are, then attend very traditionalist churches as more of a social ritual than a spiritual thing. They are the people who are quick to use their 'Christian values' to moralise, and condemn the behaviour of people they see as their inferiors, but are ruthless when it comes to the persuit of their own personal advancement and wealth.

boroandproud2 Posted on 30/9 10:06
re: This country is 72% Christian

Religion is for the weak. All you need in life is good morals

--- Post edited by boroandproud2 on 30/9 10:08 ---

sasboro Posted on 30/9 10:08
re: This country is 72% Christian

why do you need a religion to get you to be a good person?

whats worse being religious and sinning all your life or not religious and being a good person

--- Post edited by sasboro on 30/9 10:09 ---

GtownBeerBelly Posted on 30/9 10:36
re: This country is 72% Christian

Are you not weak, boroandproud2?

BobUpndown Posted on 30/9 10:40
re: This country is 72% Christian

72% yeah right.. they will have looked at numbers for the other faiths then assigned the reminder to Christianity.. I remember the last census..
I and tens of 1000's of others proclaimed our Jedi faith and yet we remain unrecognised!!

probably only 5-10% practice their christianity.. to the standards the various self proclaimed leaders of the faiths want.. tho thats not a bad thing..

Cobain_94 Posted on 30/9 10:51
re: This country is 72% Christian

"The credibility of the New Testament is based on the fact that some of the books are eye-witness accounts of events that provide evidence that Jesus was who he said he was.
"

I don't doubt that Jesus existed, that's not in debate. Has anyone ever thought though that he might just of been a good con man?

GtownBeerBelly Posted on 30/9 10:54
re: This country is 72% Christian

Even the very best con men get found out eventually. Two thousand years later, though?

Kilburn Posted on 30/9 10:56
re: This country is 72% Christian

How do you know? The very best ones may never get found out, which is why nobody recognises them.

GtownBeerBelly Posted on 30/9 10:58
re: This country is 72% Christian

Never said I knew, just posing a question.

moxzin Posted on 30/9 11:14
re: This country is 72% Christian

Chutney, to be fair, look at the first post time, 23:41, time for bed I think!

A few points have come out of this.

Firstly, not sure where I got 18% from, see above, but actually it probably is 18% atheist when you take away other religions, thats just a guess though,so don't quote me on it. Lets use 28% now.

Secondly, I really don't understand with what authority people are questioning this data(which is the 2001 census, btw). Just because you don't agree with it, or the circles you mix in don't reflect it, doesn't necessarily mean that there is every possible reason why the data was contamninated. Maybe there is just 42 million Christians out there. Hard to believe, but thats what the census shows us.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not claiming that it is complete objective fact, of course there will be slight inaccuracies. But for some to claim that the figure is actually 20-30%, or even 5-10%, based on the fact that out of 20 people they know, 1 is Christian, is surely an even more inaccurate way to go?

Just admit it atheist guys and gals out there, like it or not, you are in the minority, in this country, still, and all the evidence supports this. Counter-evidence has so far been spurious or guesswork, not Governmental data.

The third point remains from the 1st post, this country is still a majority Christian country, it is secular, but the vast majority of its people are Christians. In that case, why is Christianity detached from our lives, to the extent that if you aren't on the Heaven and Earth show or Songs of Praise (!) you can't get away with talking about your religion on National TV.

The atheists, for such a small minority, certainly dictate a lot their own way in this country.

dog_go_woof Posted on 30/9 11:18
re: This country is 72% Christian

Zaphod - I wouldn't say that my post was entirely innacurate, it was just not as accurate as it could be. I was posting it to see what your response would be, assuming that you would claim that the gap wasn't so large and then waiting for your critique of mohammed / The Koran. No need to be so baffled.

To follow on from your response and your criticisms, or doubts about the legitimacy of Mohammed's claims, can you point me in the direction of some texts that describe the acts of Jesus, that are not written by Christian authors?

As for Kilburn's (amongst other's) mention of these 'mean spirited, reactionary, judgmental, intolerant and avaricious' Christians, I find that there's quite a large, and growing, population of fundamentalist Christians. These are the Cristians that we would have once called 'Born-Again', but they are a very actively evangelistic, often proclaiming how, "after accepting Jesus Christ as my personal saviour". What scares me about such Christians is their unflinching reliance on scripture (which I often find they don't know as well as I do) and their literal interpretation of it.

For instance, they are happy to accept the parables that Jesus tells and they realise that they are metaphors, but they will, under no circumstances even consider that Genesis is a parable / metaphor for the birth of humanity and instead they take it literally. They believe that Adam and Eve were real people and they will even go to the lengths of inventing stories about other people living outside Eden, that aren't mentioned in The Bible, to explain where the wives of Kane and Able materialised from. These are the Christians that scare me the most.

Face_from_the_A_Team Posted on 30/9 11:18
re: This country is 72% Christian

Religion is boring.

Matelot Posted on 30/9 11:32
re: This country is 72% Christian

Moxzin.
You are not allowed to mention Christianity on this PC leftie board you should know that by now.
The idea of a supreme entity who is at work in ours lives and who has touched many millions of people throughout the ages does not fit with the enlightened generation that we have spawned.

If we are so free and our eyes our truly wide open to the mass confidence trick that is organised religion, then why is the world in such a state?
It's a double edged question ..... I am often asked "if there is a god how come bad things happen"
My question is "if there is not a God how come good things happen"

Lefty3668 Posted on 30/9 11:35
re: This country is 72% Christian

I think Jesus would have been quite pleased in the reduction in the number of christians.

Matelot Posted on 30/9 11:48
re: This country is 72% Christian

You say "would have been pleased" in the past tense.
when as any Christian will tell you he has and always will exist.
Ever heard of the holy trinity?

Lefty3668 Posted on 30/9 11:50
re: This country is 72% Christian

No, could you explain it to me?

red_rebel Posted on 30/9 11:56
re: This country is 72% Christian

Mox:

As with all surveys, the clue - and the potential flaw - is in the question.

The census is very superficial and far from scientific.

Given a choice of boxes to tick most people would choose the nearest to themselves but most rarely fit exactly.

Given a choice between say, hindu, jewish, muslim, rastafarian, zorastrian, humanist and pagan most people in Britain would naturaly tick 'christian'.

But I think that is a cultural shorthand. The vast majority probaly wouldn't really pass as Christains if quizzed on the theoretical, theological and moral basis of Christaianity or if their everyday practice was examined.

My family are Teesside Irish catholics. Not one of them could tell you what the differences are between their faith and that of a proddy dog. Not one would understand the mysticism in the doctrine of transubstantiation. My Anutie Edna goes to spiritualist meeting and chruch and see's nothing strange in it.

For all of them the church is just somewhere they insist on for births marriages and deaths. It is a ceremonial not an ideological affiliation.

So what makes you a christian? Just being born in a nation that is nominally christian? Getting married in a church? Celebrating Christmas? That can't be right. That covers just about all the shallow, amoral and selfish people I know. Surely you wouldn't want to claim such superficial people for your side?

A better measure may be regular attendence at church (although there are complicating factors there too). That requires at least some kind of conscious decsion and formal acceptance of some kind of organised religious belief. Does anyone have numbers?

Kilburn Posted on 30/9 11:56
re: This country is 72% Christian

"If we are so free and our eyes our truly wide open to the mass confidence trick that is organised religion, then why is the world in such a state?"

Most of the population of the world are still very much part of organised religions. Interestingly, most of the worlds real trouble-spots at present are characterised by being places where the influence of organised religion is at its strongest.

Matelot Posted on 30/9 11:56
re: This country is 72% Christian

There you go...
Quite a good read as well.
if you fancy converting to Catholism after reading it i know a good priest ok?

Link: Trinity Link

dog_go_woof Posted on 30/9 12:05
re: This country is 72% Christian

Matelot - As Zaphod hasn't returned to answer my question and you're knocking around, please feel free to dive right in and give me an answer.

"To follow on from your response and your criticisms, or doubts about the legitimacy of Mohammed's claims, can you point me in the direction of some texts that describe the acts of Jesus, that are not written by Christian authors?"

red_rebel Posted on 30/9 12:08
re: This country is 72% Christian

Then can you have a crack at the science of transubstantiation?

BobUpndown Posted on 30/9 12:14
re: This country is 72% Christian

the census was flawed.. it only gave religious groups to tick.. there was no 'NOT RELIGIOUS' group.. there was Other.. then you could put Jedi or whatever..

I can agree with many policies faiths of all types purport to adhere to.. but that doesn't make me a follower of those religions..

following religion and believing in god are arguably a different thing.. agnostics have decided god can never be proven or disproved.. religion is a MAN made phenomenon lead by men and under the jurisdiction of men.. Saints, martyrs etc are declared by men.. its as man made as you can make it..

the eye witness accounts, of jesus, are several decades after the event by common consensus (several documentaries)..

Lefty3668 Posted on 30/9 12:25
re: This country is 72% Christian

Thank you Matelot,

Although that was not 'quite an interesting read' and was about as clear as mud I do now know what it is:

Mumbo-jumbo, hocus pocus and twaddle.

And your catholic priest is a peddlar of all this is he?

red_rebel Posted on 30/9 12:34
re: This country is 72% Christian

"In the UK, the Christian population is declining, both as a percentage of the population, and in absolute numbers.

"Christian Population declined by 0.5 million, from 38.6 million in 1990 to 38.1 million people in 1995. Projection for 2000 is for a Christian population of 37.8 million.

"Over the same period, the population for the UK as a whole rose from 56.9 million in 1990 to a projected 59.0 million by the year 2000." (Source : World Churches Handbook 1999)

And...

"In the UK, Church membership and attendance are declining relatively rapidly.

"Church membership figures for the UK show 6.7 million church members in 1990, 17.3% of the Christian population, with 4.4 million church attenders.

"In 1995, the number of church members had declined to 6.4 million (16.8% of the Christian population), with 4.0 million attenders. Projections for the year 2000 give 5.9 million members (15.6% of the Christian population) with 3.8 million attenders. (Source : World Churches Handbook 1999/ Christian Research)

And...

"Provisional figures for 2003 from the Church of England show that more than 1.7 million people attend church and cathedral worship each month while 1.2 million attend each week and one million each Sunday." (Source: Church of England)


--- Post edited by red_rebel on 30/9 12:37 ---

Chutney Posted on 30/9 12:37
re: This country is 72% Christian

Fair enough, mox - always thought you were one of the night owls.

Anyway, how far from 42 million is weekly church attendance in this country?

Chutney Posted on 30/9 12:40
re: This country is 72% Christian

Hmmm, answered my own question.

Link: Not quite 72%

Matelot Posted on 30/9 13:00
re: This country is 72% Christian

Do go wolf!!!!!
a link here for some early documents on the life and times of Jesus christ. some of which are writen by non Christain sources.
I hope it helps......

Link: Link

Matelot Posted on 30/9 13:05
re: This country is 72% Christian

I like this little quote from a jewish writer at the time.

About this time appeared Jesus, a wise man (if indeed it is right to call Him man; for He was a worker of astonishing deeds, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with joy), and He drew to Himself many Jews (many also of Greeks. This was the Christ.) And when Pilate, at the denunciation of those that are foremost among us, had condemned Him to the cross, those who had first loved Him did not abandon Him (for He appeared to them alive again on the third day, the holy prophets having foretold this and countless other marvels about Him.) The tribe of Christians named after Him did not cease to this day.

Any converts????
come on roll up roll up.

zaphod Posted on 30/9 13:11
re: This country is 72% Christian

Dog, I'm just back from taking a friend out to celebrate his first child. I have to say that you have posed quite the most ludicrous question I've seen in a long time. You want evidence of Jesus' acts from someone who didn't believe them!! Words fail me.

So, in your view, to be an independent witness, you have to not believe what you've seen.

Eddie_Catflap Posted on 30/9 13:28
re: This country is 72% Christian

All these religions are utter rubbish, and all of then will eventually die or be replaced by others as we evolve as a species. They'll just be footnote in the annals of human history. I find it highly dubious that the 72% who ticked Christians are actually what moxin appears to be claiming them as to be honest. We are a secular nation and long may it continue.

Even if I've got it all wrong, and I find myself judged by the Christian God on the last day or whatever, I would still reject the chance to worship him. He seems a pretty crap supreme being to me.

Sceptic_Frank Posted on 30/9 13:34
re: This country is 72% Christian

"It's a double edged question ..... I am often asked "if there is a god how come bad things happen"
My question is "if there is not a God how come good things happen""

What is the suggestion here, Matelot? That we are innately bad people and need God to guide us or supply us with good occurances in Life. Your response still doesn't answer the original question either.

Lefty3668 Posted on 30/9 13:42
re: This country is 72% Christian

I'm still trying to work out if Matelot is a catholic or taking the p1ss.

Cobain_94 Posted on 30/9 14:13
re: This country is 72% Christian

"It's a double edged question ..... I am often asked "if there is a god how come bad things happen"
My question is "if there is not a God how come good things happen""

Good things happen as do bad things, it's the way things are, surely if there was an all seeing all powerful god he could stop the bad things happening? Or maybe he isn't as powerful or doesn't care enough?

I don't believe in him anyway, I realise that if I am wrong our loving god will send me to hell despite being a largely decent person.

Moxzin, I don't know anyone who attends church regularly. Church going, practising Christians are in the minority in this country, thank god (or should that be thanks to god not existing).

--- Post edited by Cobain_94 on 30/9 14:13 ---

dog_go_woof Posted on 30/9 14:17
re: This country is 72% Christian

Sorry for the delay.

Well, you've pointed me in the direction of some reasonable stuff. Suffice to say, Tacitus is a reasonable historian, a bit too stuffy and serious for my tastes. His views are valid enough, but he is criticised by the website and makes no mention of Jesus's life, only his death and the persecution of early Christians.

Suetonius, on the other hand, is a historian (if you can call him that) whom I love. He's a trashy gossip-monger, who's most recognised work 'The Twelve Caesars' is a scandal filled delight. Again, however, he only mentions a little of the life of Christ, and sees him as a political rather than a religious figure.

Pliny the Younger, although not the great man of action that his uncle Pliny the Elder was, achieved greatness though his writing. Once again, he mentions only the lives of early Christians and not Christ.

Then we have Lucian, a Greek satirist, who mentions the miracles of Christ in his work 'Philopseudes' (Lover of Lies). He chronicles various claims of miracles acts - not only those that were reportedly perpetrated by Christ, but others too. Apparently miracles were quite frequent occurances back in the day.

So, that's tha Pagan perspective taken care of; I'd say that apart from proving the existance of Christ and telling me what a nasty time the early Christians had, which I already knew, there's nothing that adds any weight to the Christian claims that re made in the Gospels.

Then we have Josephus, I'd like to go through the criticisms of his work, especially where he refers to Jesus, but they are too long and I've been tying for a while, so I'll post a link to a reasonable critique.

Link: The Testimonium Flavianum

red_rebel Posted on 30/9 14:17
re: This country is 72% Christian

Not only are they a minority they are declining (see figures above).

They are overwealmingly old people from God fearing generations and as they die off churches are closed and turned into wine bars.

They will not be replaced because when new generation of secular self starters become old they will be back-packing along the South Coast, joining swingers clubs stiffened up with viagra or dropping ecstacy in 90's revival nights in Ibiza.

dog_go_woof Posted on 30/9 14:28
re: This country is 72% Christian

Zaphod - I'm working on the assumption that not everyone who saw these alleged 'miracles' became a convert, pardon me, if you will. I do like the way that you have very little time to argue your point and just try to inslult my question answering skills. As it happens, you're answering exactly as I'd expect. However, as much as I enjoy your defensiveness and your little digs, I'd much rather you put the effort in to a bit of research. At least you haven't resorted to the good old Christian dogma of 'You cant' understand if you don't have God in your life'.

Matelot - I trust you've read the criticisms of Josephus. Are you unconverted yet?

riverboat_captain Posted on 30/9 14:39
re: This country is 72% Christian

Mox:

"Just admit it atheist guys and gals out there, like it or not, you are in the minority, in this country, still, and all the evidence supports this. Counter-evidence has so far been spurious or guesswork, not Governmental data."

What is wrong with being in the minority?

One thing all atheists have in common is a refusal to believe everything they are told.

Matelot Posted on 30/9 14:39
re: This country is 72% Christian

I will never recant my Catholism and my faith in the church of Jesus Christ.

To turn my back on the light that i have seen would make me a liar.

Martydom is the way ahead.

Pax vobiscum et opus dei.

FabioSendemback Posted on 30/9 14:45
re: This country is 72% Christian

most Christians dont even know about the faith they are talking about. eg some probably think if they go to heaven they will be with god, dont think so.


According to Christianity when you die you go to this mundane place that I forget the name of its not Limbo, everyone was pretty much bored its a spirtual version of Milton keynes. Then big Jesus dies and rips a mofo hole in it, then everyone spills out and meets up at judgement day.

there people are judged the bad go to Hell, the good go to a place near heaven which is nice but they dont actually go to heaven and be with god. He aint hanging with the common folk.

Matelot Posted on 30/9 14:50
re: This country is 72% Christian

How about we have a dig at the many followers of Islam, the jewish and hinduism???
No we can't do that cause we would be big bad racists then.

bubblesmfc Posted on 30/9 14:56
re: This country is 72% Christian

I'll have a go at all of them, including christians, we'd be better off without them all.

Revol_Tees Posted on 30/9 14:57
re: This country is 72% Christian

I don't think moxzin is saying there's anything wrong with being in this "minority". He's probably just trying to make the same point as most far-right agitators - that a small, elitist cabal of Communist aethists have captured control of Britain and have marginalised opposing views. Funny innit.

dog_go_woof Posted on 30/9 14:57
re: This country is 72% Christian

I'll happily do it, but only if someone I belive is a genuine follower of Islam or Judaism or Buddhism etc comes on to the board and starts evangelising. I'm not just going to rant about random organised religions for the sake of it. I like the thrill of debate.

By the way, are you still searching out early texts on the Christian doctrine or is this last post a statement that you're not playing anymore?

Matelot Posted on 30/9 14:59
re: This country is 72% Christian

Funny how it has only happened since people stopped going to church.

Lefty3668 Posted on 30/9 14:59
re: This country is 72% Christian

'Martydom is the way ahead.

Pax vobiscum et opus dei.'

What's that all about?

Christian suicide bombers who strap a bomb made of spikes to the inner thigh?

Matelot Posted on 30/9 15:00
re: This country is 72% Christian

Nah i'am not playing i gotta write a sermon for sunday.

zaphod Posted on 30/9 15:25
re: This country is 72% Christian

Dog, you say you are assuming that not everyone who saw the miracles became a convert. The problem is that if they didn't become converts, they wouldn't write about it to say that it was true, would they? In fact, they'd be likely to write and say they were there and it didn't happen, wouldn't they? In fact, nobody did so. Obviously an argument from absence is not perfect, but in the circumstances that the authorities were trying to stamp out Christianity and would favour those who came forward to undermine it, it's really quite remarkable that no-one came forward.

Tacitus and Josephus were not eye-witnesses, so what they have to say is irrelevant. In a court of law, they would be dismissed as hearsay, unlike the eye-witness accounts of the apostles. BTW, I am not trying to convert you, just refuting your fallacious arguments. You say "I wouldn't say that my post was entirely inaccurate, it was just not as accurate as it could be." What's the difference? Every so-called "fact" was inaccurate.

Fabio, purgatory is an invention of the Roman Catholic church and has no foundation in the teaching of Jesus.

Chutney Posted on 30/9 15:27
re: This country is 72% Christian

"were not eye-witnesses, so what they have to say is irrelevant"

And the sound of historians sharpening their knives becomes audible...

Matelot Posted on 30/9 15:31
re: This country is 72% Christian

But zaphod Mathew 16.
Jesus taking to St Peter the first pope.........
"You are the rock on which i build my church, whatever you bind on earth i will bind in heaven"

Lefty3668 Posted on 30/9 15:33
re: This country is 72% Christian

Weeelll,

There are eye witness accounts and there are eye witness accounts.

Weren't there dozens and dozens of 'gospels' written before, during and after the time of Jesus. Some are quite the opposite of one another?

'John', is reckoned to be the most accurate of the ones included in the bible, but was written 80 years after Jesus' death, in AD 120. I think.

Can anybody tell me if it was St Paul or St Peter who founded the Church?

Matelot Posted on 30/9 15:33
re: This country is 72% Christian

I see moxzin got his century.
can't fall off with a religion thread really.

Matelot Posted on 30/9 15:36
re: This country is 72% Christian

Lefty it was Peter!!!!
here is another link for your enjoyment......
I hope my prayers get answered tonight i am doing alot of evengelisation.

Link: Petrine link

Lefty3668 Posted on 30/9 15:58
re: This country is 72% Christian

That web site is pigging hard reading.

So if St Peter founded the church, what did St Paul have to do with it? No links please just a couple of lines in summary.

For some reason I thought he was more important in getting it established. Maybe he spread the word more?

zaphod Posted on 30/9 16:04
re: This country is 72% Christian

Matelot, the authority Jesus gave to Peter (which was given to all the apostles in Matthew 18) was given only to that group of people. I think this was to give them the undisputed authority to establish the church. There is no evidence that this authority was to be passed on to the next generation - or even that they attempted to do so.

Apostolic succession is a pernicious myth promoted by the Roman Catholic Church to suppress dissent. Peter was not even the recognised head of the church in Jerusalem: Jesus' brother James seems to have assumed that role. Peter may well have been the leader of the church in Rome for a short while before his execution (though it's not certain), but the Roman church was not the most important church at the time and certainly didn't have authority over other churches.

Any claim to apostolic authority by the Popes must be completely discredited by the behaviour of some of them: Benedict IX and Alexander VI spring to mind.

dog_go_woof Posted on 30/9 16:10
re: This country is 72% Christian

Zaphod - Why wouldn't a pagan author be able to write that he witnessed a miracle, but didn't become a convert? In a time when miracles were apparently commonplace, why wouldn't a pagan author make note of seeing one performed by Jesus? What would be gained, by saying that it didn't happen unless people were actively trying to discredit Jesus?

By the same rationale, you could argue that it would seem that the only people who bore witness to the miracles of Jesus are those who were actively trying to promote him. Am I right?

Good one for repeating your criticism of my first post on the matter; I thought that you'd have realised that it was deliberately posted to get a response. Now, let's consider your response again;

"Dog, the earliest books of the New Testament were written about 20 years after Jesus' death. All of them were written during the lifetimes of the people who were with him during his ministry. The credibility of the New Testament is based on the fact that some of the books are eye-witness accounts of events that provide evidence that Jesus was who he said he was."

So, your saying that members of the early Christian church are responsible for only some of the material contained within the Gospels and that they were, at the very least, written some 20 years after his death, and probably about 30 years after the actual events? That's hardly what I would describe as a solid testimony.

"The Quran was not written directly by Mohammed, but mostly by his followers, a lot of it after his death."

Change 'Koran' to 'Bible' and 'Mohammed' to 'Jesus'.

Only joking, I'm afraid that I don't know enough scripture from The Koran to provide a decent and informed arguement on this matter.

Lefty3668 Posted on 30/9 16:22
re: This country is 72% Christian

Wow!

What did Benedict IX and Alexander VI do?

zaphod Posted on 30/9 16:26
re: This country is 72% Christian

Dog, miracles were not commonplace then, as now.

Another point I failed to make is that Jesus didn't go in for the spectacular televangelist style. The miracles were mostly done in a relatively modest fashion for the benefit of his followers and those in need. Even the "loaves and fishes" was done in a way that few would have realised what was happening, as was (especially) the water into wine. Jesus did not use the miracles to get people to follow him and, I believe from the temptations, specifically rejected a ministry of the spectacular. (Pity others don't follow that lead.)

It's the same nowadays. Miracles are performed (not many), but people like you would never know and they are not publicised.

PS: I forgot to say that you must be very young if you think people have difficulty remembering important events after 20 years. I remember my wedding 36 years ago in startling detail. BTW Jesus' ministry lasted 3 years; the apostles spent the rest of their lives telling people about it and probably had it written down when they realised their oral witness would disappear when they died.

--- Post edited by zaphod on 30/9 16:33 ---

zaphod Posted on 30/9 16:28
re: This country is 72% Christian

Lefty, Wikipedia has a whole section on Popes.

Lefty3668 Posted on 30/9 16:31
re: This country is 72% Christian

That water into wine thing. It was at a wedding, wasn't it?

Wasn't the providing of wine the grooms responsibility in those days?

Now that makes you think.....

zaphod Posted on 30/9 16:34
re: This country is 72% Christian

Yes, Lefty, it was a cock-up which could have spoiled the wedding.

moxzin Posted on 30/9 16:39
re: This country is 72% Christian

More disgraceful tactics from Revol. FFS You're scraping the barrel aren't you? I told you why I posted this, in response to the moans and marginalising of Christianity in this country, it is interesting to note that the vast majority of us are actually Christian. You make up your slanders and your LIES like always though. You know that if you can throw enough mud, however thin and disgusting it is, some of it will stick and your mission will be a success. Low tactics as always.

For me Church attendances aren't a great rebuttal, btw, because you can not go to Church and still be a Christian, and on the same note you can go to Church every day and not be a Christian, the only human judge on whether or not you are a Christian in your heart is YOURSELF, and who filled in the censuses(censi?). Yes, thats right, ourselves.

And There WAS a no religion option, which 13.6 million people stated, about 24.5%.

That means that its about 3 out of every 4 people in this country aspire to a religion of some sort. Gladdens the heart, however it is interesting to see how little credibility one group has compared to the other in the public eye.

Rather than being anything sinister, I'd argue that the atheist minority, like any minority I guess, are fiercely proud and protective, just look at the desperate rush we've had to try and disprove these results for an example.

--- Post edited by moxzin on 30/9 16:40 ---

BillHicksBoro Posted on 30/9 16:50
re: This country is 72% Christian

Mox, I don't think thats a reasonable arguement, your saying that ticking a box on a survey is more significant then practising or believing in a religion.

You've got a very liberal view of worship I guess, and its the pick and mix attitude to worship which the various christian churchs are worrying about. I for one don't believe you can call yourself christian if you believe in a non-descript god and happen to be white, and I'm sure the church authorities would agree with me, they want bums on seats and less of this armchair supporting.

By the way dude none of your figures add up 72% 18% and 24% I'd check the census myself but I'm feeling lazy

Lefty3668 Posted on 30/9 16:52
re: This country is 72% Christian

Those two popes were interesting! They put the current Nazi into perspective.

Zaphod, does it say in the bible whose wedding it was at?

I am sure they were very big on religious tradition in those days.

zaphod Posted on 30/9 16:57
re: This country is 72% Christian

Lefty, probably a relative of Mary, Jesus' mother. It was a Jewish wedding, of course.

PS: Off home now. It's 7pm here.

--- Post edited by zaphod on 30/9 16:59 ---

Link: The story

grantus Posted on 30/9 16:59
re: This country is 72% Christian

Bloody hell, this one's gone all the way. Sorry, too much, too heavy, to read on a Friday arvo. But i'll have my piece anyway.

You should all know that statictics are a funny old game.

I mean, how does an agnostic person become as such in such statistics if he/she was raised as a Christian, or a Muslim, the same goes for aetheists.

72% my hairy arse. Altough, a lot of people keep believing on the sly, just in case.

moxzin Posted on 30/9 17:00
re: This country is 72% Christian

Here are the figures:

100.00% - UK Population

72.00% - Christian
24.50% - Atheist
3.500% - Miscellaneous religions

Revol_Tees Posted on 30/9 17:10
re: This country is 72% Christian

"More disgraceful tactics from Revol. FFS You're scraping the barrel aren't you? I told you why I posted this, in response to the moans and marginalising of Christianity in this country, it is interesting to note that the vast majority of us are actually Christian. You make up your slanders and your LIES like always though. You know that if you can throw enough mud, however thin and disgusting it is, some of it will stick and your mission will be a success. Low tactics as always."

Oh shut up.

BillHicksBoro Posted on 30/9 17:11
re: This country is 72% Christian

As for believing on the sly, the most convincing arguement I've heard to persuade aethists to believe was by a guy called Bliase Pascal, a philosopher from the 17th century. He used the gamblers arguement:

If you believe and its real: you win
If you believe and its not real: you were never going to lose anyway
If you don't believe and its not real: you've lost nothing but gained nothing
If you don't believe and it is real: God smites you

A sensible gambler would always got for the best bet with the best possible outcomes... so basically you should believe in god. As theres no chance of being smited.

Do you have no opinion of the classification standard though Mox?

Practice vs Ticking a box.. etc

grantus Posted on 30/9 17:16
re: This country is 72% Christian

Bill, the way i see it though is that if you say you believe, do nothing to nurture the belief and really deep down, struggle with it. Do you really believe?

How can you just turn a belief on and off, you cant. In many ways I wish I could believe in religion. Ive had conversations with religious men from many different religions over the years, but none of them have been able to give me answers. I mean answers that make sense to me, that can give me something to work with.

How can you turn on a blind faith, when you've been encouraged to question things?

Surely belief runs deeper than that, or is meant to, so, if you just go along with it and there is a god, he will know that you faked it.

Best to be true to yourself.

--- Post edited by grantus on 30/9 17:18 ---

Kilburn Posted on 30/9 17:20
re: This country is 72% Christian

Thinking back, despite being atheist in my beliefs, I have an idea that I might have ticked 'Christian', because of the way that the question was phrased on the census.

If I remember correctly, it was phrased in such a way as to ask 'what religious background do you hail from?', as opposed to 'what religion do you currently practise?'.

moxzin Posted on 30/9 17:20
re: This country is 72% Christian

No BillHicks, all I am saying is that people know in their hearts whether they are Christian or not, only they can make that decision for themselves, so who are we to dispute them if they tick the box. For my opinion, a man can never have set foot in a church but still be a devout Christian, as its all about whats inside here (I'm pointing at the heart) and, I guess, your spirit too. 13 million people had no qualms about saying "No religion", so why would people lie to themselves by ticking the wrong boxes? Did they also put they live in a massive mansion with 4 new cars and a 6 figure income? In that case can't we trust ANY of the census data? The whole crux of the census is self-evaluation, and while we have to allow certainly for errors, we can't allow for such a massive error that would turn a 3 to 1 majority into a minority, or even a 2 to 1 majority, it is a landslide.

Revol, "Oh shut up" ??? Suddenly gone PaddlingBack on us? Classy.

BillHicksBoro Posted on 30/9 17:22
re: This country is 72% Christian

I was hoping someone would bring that up, because of course, Pascals peers said the same thing, but his arguement was, just go to church and get into the habit and get caught up in the whole thing, sing your heart out and eventually you'll learn to believe, it would become a way of life... and when you're stood in front of the pearly gates, you would believe...

I think nowadays it wouldn't work, but maybe times were simpler back then.

BillHicksBoro Posted on 30/9 17:29
re: This country is 72% Christian

Mox mate I used to work in statistical social research - often for the government (till last month) and I can safely say the majority don't lie.. much. Never trust this sort of thing. The Paranoia some people have in regard to filling out surveys is only matched by their need to be slightly ahead of their peers.

For what its worth, I think Kilburn is right about how the question was phrased, which would be very significant..

Like I said, your view on what constitues a Christian is very Liberal and I'm not sure the church(s), or even god, if you believe the 'literal' Bible would agree with you.

littlejimmy Posted on 30/9 17:34
re: This country is 72% Christian

If we're going to take the results of the census to be gospel, i.e. 72% of the UK are bona-fide, dyed-in-the-wool Christians, are we also going to accept that there are 50,000 bona-fide Jedis out there?

Statistics, eh? The last refuge of the desperate.

boro_bliss Posted on 30/9 17:37
re: This country is 72% Christian

72 percent???

Oh that would at least explain why some people still seem to live in the middle ages and think that being gay is a disease or that women are only there for having sex with and taking care of the children....

Revol_Tees Posted on 30/9 17:38
re: This country is 72% Christian

No mox, I thought your tirade was brilliant, but please put away your book of superlatives before I completely p-ss myself. Did you get it free with the Daily Mail, by any chance? "Disgraceful! Slander! LIES! Mud! Disgusting! Low!" You know, I was only joking. But please carry on taking everything so seriously - you've put a smile on my face. You remind me of Boateng_7, only you've read some books and learned to spell.

Revol_Tees Posted on 30/9 17:42
re: This country is 72% Christian

littlejimmy

littlejimmy Posted on 30/9 17:46
re: This country is 72% Christian

I would love to meet a real Jedi and have a go on his lightsabre.

I also LOL'd at your bit, RT. Mox does go on at times, bless him.

Lefty3668 Posted on 30/9 17:51
re: This country is 72% Christian

Zaphod

Well, Mary must have been related to the groom, to go ordering the servants about like that!

Then she orders her son to perform his first ever miracle? It must have been the wedding of someone very important. But no mention of whose.

Mind you, Jesus was pretty important wasn't he? From the Royal Line of King David or something, according to my infant school nativity play recollections.

I also notice that it just says that the Governor asks the bridegroom forward, it makes no distinction that he and Jesus are different people. And then the Governor says 'but THOU hast kept the good wine until now'.

Now it does say the Governor did not know whence the wine came, but might that not just refer to the fact that it came from water?

Lefty3668 Posted on 30/9 17:54
re: This country is 72% Christian

Littlejimmy,

We have to accept the statistics of the 2001 census as totally correct because they prove that we have the best fans in the north east.

--- Post edited by Lefty3668 on 30/9 17:55 ---

downings_left_foot Posted on 30/9 19:36
re: This country is 72% Christian

Good thread moxzin.

I would agree with the opinion that a lot of people don't really know what religion they belong to, and so would say Christian, since it is the national religion. I'd regard myself as a Catholic, all my schools have been Catholic and I have been baptised, done by first communion and been confirmed. I believe in Jesus and his teachings, and try to be a nice person (most of the time!), but I haven't been to Church since Christmas. Does that not make me a Christian?

If you compared science and religion on the basis of creation etcetera, I would 100% agree with the scientific version of events. But how can the science of life and the world be so perfectly set out to not be down to a god? It's just seems all too perfect to me. I'm not a happy clapper, I'm for abortion to an extent, I'm for sex before marriage, divorce, homosexulity, there is a lot of Christianity I either do not agree with or think is total clap trap. A lot of the Old Testament was written by people trying to understand the world around them, and writing stories to do so e.g. creation, Noah's ark, and most of those stories I think aren't true. The entire Bible was written by man, it's not specifically God's words (although that's all down to opinion).

Not being a 100% committed, practising worshipper, but just believing the core ideologies, doesn't make you any less of a Christian in my eyes. What makes us think that God wants to see us every week?

GtownBeerBelly Posted on 30/9 19:54
re: This country is 72% Christian

Shall we have a rousing rendition of Onward, Christian Soldiers?

Naaa, didn't think so.

Matelot Posted on 30/9 20:16
re: This country is 72% Christian

Mr downnings left foot.

Abortion is the murder of an unborn child.
Whatever the unfortunate and sometimes deeply shocking and evil circumstances of a childs conception, it is not the innocent child in the wombs fault.
you say you call yourself a christian?
What you think when christ said "whatever you do unto the least of my brothers you do unto me"

Do you think Jesus is up there nodding in agrement with you on what you have stated here?

Sorry to rant.

downings_left_foot Posted on 30/9 20:24
re: This country is 72% Christian

I think you will find I said I agreed with it *to an extent*. So if a woman is brutally attacked, and she finds herself pregnant as a result, are you saying she should carry, and give birth to a child she never wanted? Of course, it's not the best option, it should be the LAST option, but it should be an option nonetheless.
Using the word murder is strong, it depends whether you believe life begins at conception (as the Catholic church teaches) or at birth (as I believe). A child can't miss what it never had, and there are worse things than death. Abortion is a horrible, horrible thing, but I think a woman would have to be completely dead inside not to feel guilt or remorse if she did undergo the procedure. It's a difficult choice for a woman to make, but I think the choice should be there.

littlejimmy Posted on 30/9 20:30
re: This country is 72% Christian

It should never be used as contraception, in my opinion. The choice bit should come in before having sex in the first place, in an ideal world. But I believe that life begins at conception. A baby is able to survive being born at 24 weeks these days. I'm aware this seems to go against most of my other lefty tendencies, but I see it as a sanctity of life issue, in much the same way as I think capital punishment is totally wrong.

--- Post edited by littlejimmy on 30/9 20:31 ---

Matelot Posted on 30/9 20:30
re: This country is 72% Christian

Life starts at birth?

So if i buy a top of the range stop watch thing and set it to go off in nine months time. At which point after pressing the button to start the countdown does that time become a real thing?
When does that time become a part of the fabric of our very world?

As i said it is not the innocent child in the wombs fault for the evil of someone else.

moxzin Posted on 30/9 21:16
re: This country is 72% Christian

But Revol you do it every time you don't actually challenge the points you cast aspersions about me, remember the Israel/Palestinian thread when you tried haplessly to cobble together a quote from me to paint me as an uncaring monster, tbh it is very irritating and juvenile....IMHO of course. And of course it is ironic that you've chosen to say that I remind you of a poster that I was actually here long before. It doesn't really matter in this instance whether you're joking or not, you are associating my name with some very bad things and hoping to strike a connection and it is uncalled for. red_rebel has said some many intelligent things but the best one was "play the ball not the man" in regards to these debates. You're approach in this regard reminds me of Roy Keane on Alf Inge Haaland. You and littlejimmy are fine to LOL all you want and damn me with faint praise but you know what you're doing.

downings_left_foot Posted on 30/9 21:41
re: This country is 72% Christian

So in the case of sexual assault, that woman should be effectively forced to carry that foetus to term, because it is innocent? What about her innocence? You say that an innocent child in the womb should not have to suffer for someone elses evil, but what about the woman in question? Should she suffer instead? Whose life are we meant to value more?

--- Post edited by downings_left_foot on 30/9 21:44 ---

red_rebel Posted on 30/9 22:06
re: This country is 72% Christian

Matelot:

"What you think when christ said "whatever you do unto the least of my brothers you do unto me"

How do you square this with your support for the war in Iraq?

How do you square it with support for any war, support that the church has always given the state it is entwined with?

Revol_Tees Posted on 30/9 22:21
re: This country is 72% Christian

moxzin - I've challenged your points before on this board and I've debated rationally with you before. I'm glad I've wound you up this time, though, because it's been worth it for the entertainment value. I can't believe you've made all this fuss over a post two sentences long, but I shouldn't be surprised. (And the bare-faced cheek of it - like you've never cast aspersions on any left-wingers for being Communists, terrorist-sympathisers or supporters of Saddam.)

But at the end of the day, I honestly couldn't give a toss. Carry on taking the bait if you want. It gives us a laugh, and afterall, winding up the right-wing bigots of this world is always a pleasure, young or old. I don't think I have anymore to add, so until the next time we cross swords ... Peace Off.

moxzin Posted on 30/9 22:43
re: This country is 72% Christian

What you forget Revol is that I've been through it all with your kind before. Over the years I've had many a run-in with people on this board and I've seen it all. You really think you're being new and original with "right wing bigot"? You know nothing, really nothing, about what has come my way through this board in the past if you think thats whats enough to get me going.

But what does get me going is this. The game of bait moxzin has been over for months now, maybe even years. Most people have put it behind them and started talking rationally about issues that, yes maybe we disagree on, but both parties hold sincere opinions and there is no need to name-call.

But its the "there's always one" factor. There is always has to be someone hanging on the coat-tails of everyone else trying to score belated points.

Like I said, irritating and juvenile because you really are, way too late on this one. Pick someone else to "troll" with, or alternatively, find something interesting to do with your time.

For the record, I don't think I've ever called anyone communist who hasn't already themselves admitted to being one. I haven't called anyone a terrorist sympathiser who hasn't sympathised with terrorists, and I genuinely don't remember calling anyone a Saddam supporter, I guess you've just picked that up out the air.

But I don't know why I'm bothering, because the truth doesn't matter much, I know what you're up to I can spot it a mile off, like I said, I've been through the washer and I know how to spot these things early.

--- Post edited by moxzin on 30/9 22:44 ---

Revol_Tees Posted on 30/9 23:07
re: This country is 72% Christian

Oh dear. Well thanks for that, mox. It almost reduced me to tears. I might be way too late, but I can see now why so many people had fun before. If one throwaway comment on a thread is all it takes, no wonder you've "been through the washer." Ho ho. Next time it happens, better hang yourself out to dry. You still seem a bit wet.

P.S. "I know what you're up to I can spot it a mile off..." (Er...?)

littlejimmy Posted on 1/10 11:46
re: This country is 72% Christian

Take a chill pill, man.

BillHicksBoro Posted on 1/10 11:55
re: This country is 72% Christian

Mox I don't think what Revol said was really all that serious, FFS its only a message board.. you do tend to take everything a bit too seriously, and thats why people can bait you so easily! Relax

PS Mox, have you started Uni yet, if so what are you doing?

moxzin Posted on 1/10 14:42
re: This country is 72% Christian

History at UCL in 1 years time, Bill, thanks for the interest.

Normally I don't let these guys get what they want, maybe I just let my guard down last night. Ah well if I can make someone laugh and reduce them to "tears" (jeez...) than I guess I'm happy.

Timboi Posted on 1/10 16:25
re: This country is 72% Christian

There's a huge amount of crap there though. Just because some one goes to church, it doesn't make them christian. Christianity is less about what you call yourself and more aobut how you live you life - there's too much hypocrisy in the church to make it an attractive organisation.

Gillandi Posted on 1/10 17:18
re: This country is 72% Christian

Well said Timboi.

downings_left_foot Posted on 1/10 20:44
re: This country is 72% Christian

Agreed, Timboi. The Catholic Church can be incredibly irresponsible sometimes too - when charities were recommending that all men in Africa wore a condom to combat the Aids crisis, the Catholic church advised that they shouldn't, because contraception is wrong and against Christian trachings. There are 144 million Catholics in Africa, God knows how many have HIV now.

Scrote Posted on 1/10 21:22
re: This country is 72% Christian

d_l_f - i think you'll find the catholic church said don't have extra-marital sex - which would have err... ummm... prevented the spread of sexually transmitted disease

like someone said a short while ago the hypocrisy is deafening - don't live a christian life but blame the christians when things go bandy

and for the earlier OT swerve i think this quote about sums it up

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
-Calvin

downings_left_foot Posted on 1/10 21:29
re: This country is 72% Christian

Fair enough Scrote, I'll agree that they do discourage sex outside of marriage, in fact downright reject it, but the Catholic Church does also reject contraception use, and in texts I've read it's treated the same as abortion - stopping procreation. Catholic teachings are that all sex should be without contraception, and should always have the possibility of a resulting pregnancy. This alone is damaging to the Aids movement.

Scrote Posted on 1/10 22:19
re: This country is 72% Christian

the problem with that is though that it is only damaging because of the lack of interest in the church's teachings that have led us to where we are now

to turn round and say that the church is somehow at fault for sticking to the anti-contraception line it held from before the AIDS epidemic is insulting to say the least

i know its more complicated these days with blood transfusions and HIV/AIDS births but that problem would most likely not be there if these africans who all seem to follow the word of the church when it suits anti-Catholics had actually done as they were told in the first place

its too easy to say you are a God fearing Catholic after the fact and blame everyone but yourself for the consequences of your actions

sorry to go on but this has been on here before and its one of the few things that really annoy me

Kilburn Posted on 1/10 22:35
re: This country is 72% Christian

Thing is, the Christian teaching that men should keep their dicks in their pants outside of marriage has never, in any society, at any point in history, been adhered to successfully. Abstinance is a teaching that history has shown to have been widespreadly preached in public, but ignored in private, by even the most devoutly religious of societies

It is therefore morally indefensible to try to justify the discouragement of people from using condoms, on the basis that instead they should practise abstinence.

Particularly reprehensible, is the promotion of the idea, by some catholic ministries in africa, that use of condoms does not help to prevent the spread of aids, and can infact increase the likelihood of infection.

littlejimmy Posted on 1/10 22:56
re: This country is 72% Christian

It utterly amazes me when I hear religious leaders lecture people (like "these Africans") about abstinence when we all know that they don't practice as they preach. It doesn't need to be spelled out. Total, brazen, disgusting hypocrisy.

Scrote Posted on 1/10 23:42
re: This country is 72% Christian

lj - are you suggesting that the pope is secretly nobbing his nuns?

kilburn - not wanting to justify the misinformation spread by certain quarters within the church but at the time i'm pretty sure i recall there being 'scientific' studies backing up the claims - as these studies also backed up the churches position it was these ones that the church lent their ears to - it is no different in my eyes to the bush administration only believeing those scientists who claim global warming has nowt to do with humans - bad science has always been used to back up claims but those making the claims aren't those doing the bad science

abstinence (or the lack of it!) isn't the problem as far as my annoyance at this argument goes - i am fully aware that something needs to be done and that the church is still in a good place to do something positive BUT the AIDS epidemic is not the fault of the church no matter what spin anyone wants to put on things - either people do what they are told to do (abstain form sex outside of marriage) or they don't (wear condoms) - you can't have it both ways

interestingly enough no-one seems to be blaming the Catholic church for the high incidence of HIV amongst the male gay population...

[nb - the reference to "these africans" in my earlier post should have had the quotes round them as i was in turn referring to d_l_f's use of africa as an example - if that has got your goat lj then i apologise - it was a slip on my part but nothing malicious]

littlejimmy Posted on 1/10 23:49
re: This country is 72% Christian

I'm sure it wasn't, Scrote. I know you're one of the good guys.

Anyway, I don't blame the church for the spread of AIDS. My point is about practising what you preach. I'm not suggesting the pope goes about knobbing his nuns, but we've all heard about the cases of catholic priests who've been done for child-abuse, and how the leaders of the catholic church tried to cover it up. In the final reckoning, we are all fallible, weak humans. We all "sin". No-one is pure, especially not the leaders of religions who, in my opinion, have used people's beliefs as a tool of oppression and subjugation throughout history and now. That's what annoys me.