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Grumpy_Paul Posted on 17/11 1:44
LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

Can you name 20 major contributions for the benefit of mankind made by the UK and West in general in the last 75 years.

Then can you do the same for the Palestinians, the Arab world and the old Communist regimes.

bungydinsdale Posted on 17/11 3:12
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

Um there's the roads...no sorry that was somebody else from the east apparently...

red_rebel Posted on 17/11 7:57
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

Sorry, I don't do requests.

The_Commisar Posted on 17/11 8:23
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

I think you have a valid point GP, if you discard
Modern Medicine - arab empire
Modern Philosphy - arab empire
Numeracy - it's those damm arabs again with their CrAzY 1 2 3 4 5 6 stuff
Modern astronomy - well whaddaya know !
Banking - just how were large sums of money moved around the Caliphates..
Large chunks of architecture - various arabs states, notably spain and Sciliy
The introduction of the stirrup - Moslem china
A few chunks of hydraulic engineering - those fountains in Baghdad, just where did they come from again...
Then it would be fair to say they have contributed NOTHING.
Eradicate them I say.

Chutney Posted on 17/11 8:30
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

You forgot the introduction of written law there, Commy.

Fairly insignificant stuff on the whole though.

Doctor_Octagon Posted on 17/11 8:50
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

To be fair gentlemen he did say in the last 75 years.

He could have said a hundred years because this is an issue troubling islamic academics and was discussed on Radio 5 the other week. The moslems on the panel accepted that there hasn't been a significant invention or contribution to the world of science from an islamic state for a long long time and the question posed was why. I didn't listen to catch all the conclusions but the general feeling was that modern islam had become "anti scientific" and does not encourage free thinking. Coupled I would imagine with the restrictions imposed on women and lack of resources in many states.




Moslem China?????


--- Post edited by Doctor_Octagon on 17/11 8:53 ---

--- Post edited by Doctor_Octagon on 17/11 8:54 ---

billyboro Posted on 17/11 9:28
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

I think you will find numeracy originated in India.

Buddy Posted on 17/11 9:44
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

What an utterly bizarre request. Are we now determining someone's worth or otherwise by their current level of technological advancement?

red_rebel Posted on 17/11 9:50
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

Numeracy was widespread. The Greeks, Romans, Chinese all had written systems.

But what the Arab scholars invented was what we would today call abstract mathematics. Not just counting things and recording them but theoretical problem solving.

In about 600AD, when Europe was deep in the Dark Ages, cutting edge Arab mathematicians were inventing the concept of ‘zero’ and the system of placed notation allowing calculations of far bigger numbers.

They also developed abstract systems such as algebra and logarithms (older posters may remember that before calculators we had log books sine, cosine etc) and from there they developed trigonomatry.

That allowed far more accurate pictures of the size and shape of the universe and gave a boost to astronomy, map making and time-keeping.

Most of these development came to Europe via Spain, which prior to the reconquest in the 12th Century was a Moslem region and the site of many seats of learning.

Buddy Posted on 17/11 9:52
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

Yes yes rebel but what about the arbitary time cut off????

red_rebel Posted on 17/11 9:54
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

Without Islam mathematics we would not be able to accurately calculate the arbitrary cut-off time.

Lefty3668 Posted on 17/11 10:02
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

I think I see the point Grumpy Paul is making and there is no doubt that the Nazi's made a telling contribution to the scientific advancement of the modern world. We should be more grateful.


Baaaa!

--- Post edited by Lefty3668 on 17/11 10:11 ---

Grumpy_Paul Posted on 17/11 20:00
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

Commisar

I did say in the last 75 years.

Red Reb
Don't do requests? Google a while then can't resist

MontagueLongfellow Posted on 17/11 20:08
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

"(older posters may remember that before calculators we had log books sine, cosine etc)"

Going off on a bit of a tangent there red rebel

littlejimmy Posted on 17/11 20:11
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

Why bother? You've already made up your mind.

littlejimmy Posted on 17/11 20:30
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

I could be churlish and list 20 bad things given to the world by the West, such as conflict on a global scale, nuclear weapons and fast food. But that would be churlish.
Is it really all so black and white, GP? I don't know what's worse, you thinking that me and my cohorts think WEST IS BAD and EAST IS GOOD, or you actually thinking the exact opposite.
But anyway, what the other answers to this thread show is that civilisations rise and fall. Culutural domination is cycical. The Middle East and Africa have had their dominant periods, and now the West are having theirs. In 200 years I bet things will be different again. Especially when the oil-dependant West runs out.

--- Post edited by littlejimmy on 17/11 20:46 ---

Grumpy_Paul Posted on 17/11 21:10
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

Actualy the first system of logarithms was developed / invented by Scotland's own John Napier in the 17th century. Also responsible for initial work on shperical trigonomotry (haversines etc), the basis for celestial navigation and indeed current GPS systems. the only difference is that for celestial body read man made satellite. Same principles still apply.

I do not deny the historic contrubutions of any nation, North, South, East or West.

75 years was an arbitary figure.

My point is that you and the sheep tend to snipe at the UK, USA and other western nations at every opportunity regardless of the positives
In my time I have travelled much of the world and confidently know where I'd rather be

--- Post edited by Grumpy_Paul on 17/11 21:11 ---

tees_tug Posted on 17/11 21:30
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

Thomas Carlyle, another great Scottish writer and mathematician.

Link: Great Scot

littlejimmy Posted on 17/11 22:08
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

We "snipe" where it's merited. We don't use nationalistic pride to cloud our judgement. It is OK to criticise your own country. In fact, I think it's healthy to do so. If something's wrong, speak up. What's wrong with that?

You just see what you want to see, GP. Take the blinkers off.

--- Post edited by littlejimmy on 17/11 22:12 ---

red_rebel Posted on 17/11 22:44
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

Grumpy:

I really don't do requests. I was respondingto the other gentlemen who made interesting points about the scientific history of Islam rather than your obvious provocation.

On the question of Napier and logarithms you shoudl do some googling. The Arabs delevoped whole areas of science - optics, gunpowder, glass making, refraction and the properties of light, medicine (including anaestethics), pathology, cartiology and printing - that were only "discovered" in Europe hundreds of years later.

Societies do not exist in isolation. Our society, our science (and our ability to measure progress by the ability to kill ever greater numbers of people at once), our recent spate of dynamic innovation (75 years, whatever) is based on the groundwork put in by previous civilsatiosn. They deserve some credit.

Link: For anyone who is interested

littlejimmy Posted on 17/11 22:47
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

You're wasting your time, rebel. He's not interested in that at all, he just wants to make us out to be Western-hating Muslim-lovers.

Sparky_Lightbourne Posted on 17/11 23:55
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

Zeros definatley came from India and not the arab world.

Medicine hmmm - that was the Greeks, Galen and Hippocrates

Modern Philosphy -those greeks again

Banking - hard to see how this is an arab idea as usury is a sin in islam.

Gunpowder - the chinese


Bit of a stupid argument really as the sum of human knowledge is based on thousands of years of collective experience. To claim for one religous or cultural group the invention of medicine or architecture is just pointless because without what has gone before they wouldn't have got there and progress would never had been made.

Brewing - babylonians
agriculture - sumerians
the wheel - sumerians
writing - sumerians

They were from Iraq so they must be arabs?

red_rebel Posted on 18/11 0:20
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

Sparky, I never said invented. I said developed.

For instance, yes the Chinese invented gunpowder but it was used exclusively for fire works and as a type of firelighter. But the Arabs developed a range of weaponry and were using grenades and pistols centuries before they were adopted in Europe.

That's how progress works. The key is not to see history as a inter-cultural point scoring exercise but to see it as one long, meandering process of development that embraces mankind as a whole.

Grumpy_Paul Posted on 18/11 0:57
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

red-reb
'On the question of Napier and logarithms you should do some googling.'

I don't need to, I know quite a lot about Napier. Navigation used to be my stock in trade. Whilst appreciating research to formulate a response is valid I like to try to comment with a little spontanaety (sp). It means I get things wrong at times but hey, it's how I like it.

Jimmy, I agree, to challenge and to question is healthy but you guys critisise the UK at just about every turn. The board stats if anyone could be bothered to research them would prove it

Also why is it that whenever a poster disagrees with your points they are blinkered or set in their ways and not open to persuasion?
I am actually open minded and often change my opinions when convinced by good points that it's right to do so.
Reading red reb's posts has positively changed some of my perceptions.

I don't deny the bad in our history as a nation, all I ask is that you guys acknowledge some of the good. I am not a little englander, I am not a nationalist, I would just be happy to see some balance.

Edited for crap typing, apologies.

--- Post edited by Grumpy_Paul on 18/11 1:01 ---

Grumpy_Paul Posted on 18/11 1:20
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

red_reb

'Without Islam mathematics we would not be able to accurately calculate the arbitrary cut-off time.'

The mathematics was known long before the emergence of Islam.

But then again, I may be wrong.


Respect

--- Post edited by Grumpy_Paul on 18/11 1:49 ---

zaphod Posted on 18/11 6:56
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

Sorry if I'm repeating what has already been said by others, but I do think Europeans have a warped view of the development of civilisation. The West (and let's be frank, more particularly, Anglo-Saxons) is the dominant civilisation at the moment, but it's only been so for about 300 years. For thousands of years (maybe 7,000), Northern Europe was a backwater in terms of civilisation.

For instance, when English traders went to India and China in the 17th century, there were plenty of high quality goods for them to buy there, but European products were for the most part not good enough to barter in exchange. BTW the Indians wouldn't deal with early English traders because they were too smelly; they had to learn to bath and wash their clothes regularly before they would be accepted. A bit of a reversal of current attitudes.

We've done well recently, but Western dominance is not set in stone.

blotonthelandscape Posted on 18/11 8:51
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

What's wrong with Fast Food?, another middle class agenda.

Inage Posted on 18/11 9:19
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

You could draw a very apt analogy of Europe before the Reformation and Enlightenment and the hegemony of the Roman Catholic Church and Islam today.

The RC church was anti-science and many scientists such as Gallileo were actively persecuted. The great advances in Western thought followed the challenges to the RC Church and has never stopped since. In fact, it is believed that science and technology is so far advanced in certain countries, lets say the G7 + most of Western Europe, that other countries have no possibility of ever challenging their scientific and technological dominance.

Some should remember that the Arabs did not start to convert to Islam before the eighth century and it could be said that Islam itself has cut off the intellectual advancement of the Arab peoples. Islam was spread first through Arabia and N. Africa by military conquest and reached as far as Spain and the Balkans, the borders of China and conquered most of India.

To say that the Arab peoples were responsible for the development items listed is a "half-truth". You should say that they were responsible for the "further development" of certain things that were originally developed by the Greeks, who are the real fountain of intellectual thought and modern civilisation.

It is quite typical of many on here to use a "half-truth" to support their positions. I agree with Grumpy that there are certain personalities who wish to decry the achievements of the "West". The question is why? Are they uneducated? Are the incapable of separating perception from reality?

A touch of self-analysis is required, I think.

The_Commisar Posted on 18/11 9:33
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

Grumpy <ms Irony font ON>
as the boards leading member of the SWP, a card carrying member of Respect, a one time subscriber to Socialist Weekly and having manned the barricades at Wapping and Orgreve, having taken part in the St Peterburg riots and fought against Franco in Spain, <MS Irony font OFF> can I just say that your assumption that recognising the historical acheivements of the arabs across the years does not make you anti american, anti european or anti western.


If you are looking for just "one thing" that
The old communist regiemes did in the last 75 years, then you could perhaps consider that without them as an opposite to western democracy, then the west would not have travalled so far and so fast (competition = good remember).
The arabs and palestinians, well if you look at where they started, and where they have got to, without much in the way of internal wars and conflicts, they have not done to bad. Last arab vs arab conflict was when ? Not 1914-18 as arabs are not turks.
The Palestinians - having been dumped upon from a great height, they have done pretty well to survive as a distinct social group.

Inage
"The question is why? Are they uneducated? Are the incapable of separating perception from reality?

A touch of self-analysis is required, I think."

Considering that you have a basic inability to answer questions, come out with irksome twaddle and struggle with anything more intelectually stimulating than "Mc OUT!" can I suggest you conduct some "self analysis" with a loaded .45 auto and your frontal lobes.

zaphod Posted on 18/11 9:57
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

The Commissar: the last Arab vs Arab conflict was, I believe, the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait and before that, the Lebanese Civil War.

Inage, whilst I agree largely with your criticism of the RC Church before the Reformation (though it wasn't monolithic in its attitudes), I don't think it's true that Islam was anti-science in its early days. Some of the stuff the West learned from the Arabs (e.g. algebra) came through Spain after the Islamic colonisation. I don't believe being anti-scientific is intrinsic to Islam, just like it isn't intrinsic to Christianity, despite the attitudes of certain sects in both religions (including the medieval RC Church).

red_rebel Posted on 18/11 10:09
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

Inage is right about the stifling influence of Islam on Arab science. At least later on.

The golden age of experimentation and innovation was 800-1000AD when Islam was still young and dynamic and the old states in the area were in flux.

Later as the theocrats took control and sought to consolidate their power there was a backlash against such intellectual freedom and a formal separation between 'Islamic science' and 'foreign science' with the later increasingly sidelined, then derided and later persecuted.

The_Commisar Posted on 18/11 10:23
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

Zaph
in which case they had about 75 years of peace, other than external interventions, not bad going.
Lebanese civil war, was this a foreign intervention or a arab v arab war, the role of the maronite christians was what ?

It could be argued that Islam turning in on itself took place post the
Crusades, Mongol invasion and the Ottoman triumph in the near east (you can probably throw the reqconquest of spain into that list) , in which case would the argument not be that this was a period of self (re) definition using islam as a mechanism to achieve this ? I
Prior to these events arab cutlure was most definately on an upswing and had a self confidence born out of victory ?
The last defeat that the arab cuture suffered prior to this was by Charlemagne in around 610, although thinking about it Basil 1sts conquests in the levant, although short lived, could be seen as a defeat.

red_rebel Posted on 18/11 10:30
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

I don't want to derail the thread but I don't think you can characterise the Lenabese civil war as Arab v Arab.

Arab v Druze v Christian v Palestinian possibly. Israeli proxy v Syria proxies possibly. But not Arab v Arab surely.

Kilburn Posted on 18/11 10:35
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

It is interesting that the phenomenon of religion stifling scientific advancement and understanding is once again beginning to rear its head in the west.

The attitude of the current US administration towards what research to permit is now being heavily influenced by the church in areas such as genetic research. Science teaching in schools is arguably regressing thanks to religious influence being brought to bear, forcing deeply unscientific concepts such as 'intelligent design' to be taught to pupils in science classes.

red_rebel Posted on 18/11 10:40
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

Yes, and our own government has secured PFI deals for new schools that are being run for profit by individuals and groups whose educational philosophy is underpinned by creationism.

Inage Posted on 18/11 11:45
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

Commisar: Don't mistake not having an inclination with inability. You are clearly a person with "fascist" tendencies. There is a close affinity between fascism and totalitarian socialism and also totalitarian Islam I might add. Never believe all you read is a good maxim. Analyse and fform your own thoughts. Yes on McClaren too if you want.

The_Commisar Posted on 18/11 12:38
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

Inage
Thanks for the facist jibe, I will on that basis go and rip up the various anti-facist league posters which are cluttering my loft.

You probably do not understand where the term facist springs from, ok, you do have google so you do have a chance of learning.
If you cannot find a .45 then feel free to use a 9mm parrabellum, and you can ponder on the irony of the naming of such.

zaphod Posted on 18/11 12:46
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

red_rebel: the Lebanese are nearly all Arabs, whether Sunni, Shia, Maronite, Druze etc. The Palestinians are also Arabs and I believe the Jordanian crushing of the PLO was also Arab vs Arab, as was Saddam Hussein's crushing of the Shia in the early 1990s.

Commissar, the Arabs didn't fight each other for ages mainly because they were a subject people under the Ottoman Empire and then under the British and French.

Islam (but not necessarily Arab civilisation) was "on an upswing" from Mohammed in the mid-7th century until the 18th century (when the advance of the Ottoman Empire stalled) despite setbacks like the loss of the Iberian peninsula, Sicily, Malta, dominion over Russia and the (temporary) setback of the Crusades. Since then it's been downhill all the way: the disintegration of the Moghul Empire, the loss of Eastern Europe and the collapse of the Ottoman Empire (which Osama Bin Laden quotes as one of the events he wants to reverse) and ultimately the subjection of the whole of the Muslim world to the West, first militarily and then economically. It's a bitter pill for Muslim fundamentalists to take: it's not supposed to happen.

It's hard to grasp that about 1,200 years ago, Christianity was a numerically small religion limited mostly to Western Europe, excluding Scandinavia and the Iberian Peninsula, plus Greece and Byzantium, Ethiopia and a few other scattered communities.

tees_tug Posted on 18/11 13:44
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

The_Commisar, why on earth should someone shoot themselves for disagreeing with you?

The_Commisar Posted on 18/11 13:46
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

No idea Ridsdale, but if you want to start a fashion I can get the gun and ammo for you.
In fact for you my friend, I'll load and cock it.

The_Commisar Posted on 18/11 13:52
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

Zaph, upto circa 1600, on the fringes of the Ottoman (turkish) empire there was plenty of scope for Arab v Arab warfare, especially dynastic warfare, however funnily enough this tended to be slave revolts (the ghulams revolting etc).

Yes, Christianity was a small philosophy, however it had, post Roman cooption, a different viewpoint than the religeons of the east.
If Bin Laden thinks that the ottoman empire was essentially islamic he's off his gourd.

tees_tug Posted on 18/11 13:58
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

What do these 'anti-facist' posters in your loft say commi?

STOP FACISM NOW!

OR WE WILL SHOT YOU



Preparing myself to be crushed by the irony heel of the_commisar.

The_Commisar Posted on 18/11 14:10
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

I did once own a badge which said
"Death to all fanatics"

zaphod Posted on 18/11 14:13
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

Osama Bin Laden seems to consider the Ottoman Empire the last "Caliphate" and the rulers were certainly Muslim, which is why you have Muslims in their former European colonies, such as Bosnia, Albania and Bulgaria. I'm aware that in the latter stages, it tended to be run by Greeks and it was always fairly moderate in its Islamic beliefs.

A lot of the anger of the Muslim fundamentalists seems to relate to the secular failure of Muslim countries in the past 2 centuries, culminating in the collapse of the Ottoman Empire and subjection to the West.

Inage Posted on 18/11 14:19
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

Commisar: Fasciti comes from the symbol (bundle of sticks) of the Italian socialist/nationalist movement personified by Mussolini. German national socialism (Nazi) had similar roots and intolerance to all but their own ideology. Similar to totalitarian socialism (communism) or totalitarian Islam (an intolerant creed). No I didn't google, this comes from my own knowledge.
I didn't call you a "fascist" but rather said you have "fascist" tendencies.

Having a few anti-fascist posters is hardly any evidence that you're committed to all things anti-totalitarian.

You're clearly limited in intellect or maybe you're dyslexic.

--- Post edited by Inage on 18/11 14:27 ---

The_Commisar Posted on 18/11 14:38
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

Inage
actually, your wrong.
"Fasciti comes from the symbol (bundle of sticks) of the Italian socialist/nationalist movement personified by Mussolini."

The bundle of sticks and an axe was the symbol of the authority of the roman state to inflict corporal (the sticks) and capital (the axe) punishment on it's citizens. This therefore symbolised the power of the state. This bundle was carried by the lictors - I had to goodle the last bit as I couldn't recall just who carried them, although the why bit was obvious.

Mussolini, with his imperial leanings, adopted this as his symbol.
So, you know half the tale, miss the context and the subtelties out.
Stick to "Mc OUT!", your obviously more comfortable with it.

Inage Posted on 18/11 14:43
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

Zaphod:
I have to disagree that Christianity was relatively numerically small about 800 years ago. This ignores Coptic christianity, Orthodox Christianity etc.,
In fact Islam (a religion of conquest) chose to first get rid of the Jews in Arabia. Then as Islam spread it attacked the local Christians everywhere. Copts in Egypt and other parts of the Arab lands, Orthodox Christians in Eastern Europe etc.,

In truth, Islam can't tolerate Christianity as it was Christians who primarily defeated Islam and stopped its further spread.
I don't want to research any of this but 800 years ago Christianity would have had considerably more adherents than Islam.

Inage Posted on 18/11 14:58
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

Commisar: Now I know you're really thick. The term "fascist" comes from the symbol adopted by Mussolini and was the name given to his followers in the twenties. Nothing to do with "fascisti" once being a Roman symbol, that's just incidental.

The term then became commonly used for so called "right wing" totalitarian parties such as Franco's in Spain.

Like I said, you're of limited intellect and should not try being a smart arse. Reading and repeating is one thing, understanding is another.

The_Commisar Posted on 18/11 14:59
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

In 1300 (approx 800 years ago) the largest cities in the world - excluding chnia and america - were Baghdad and Constantinople, the Arab empire had been on the rise for 500 years, North Africa, Arabia, central asia, northern india, all moslem.
Europe, ravaged by the plague, never quite reaching the population levels of late Rome, Byzantium crippled by it's wars with the east and west couldn't compare in numbers to the moslem world.

Inage Posted on 18/11 15:11
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

Commisar: Your maths is very poor too. About 800 years ago takes us to, by my maths, 1200 AD and the time of the Crusades (maybe the second or third). Couldn't you google something for 1200 AD. Like I said, limited intellect, "fascist" tendencies and believes and repeats what he reads without thinking. You do try but you're out of your depth.

zaphod Posted on 18/11 15:14
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

Inage: I said 1,200 years ago, because 400 years later, Christianity had significantly expanded. In 800 AD, the Iberian Peninsula and Sicily were under Muslim control; Scandinavia, Russia and most of Eastern Europe had not yet converted to Christianity; Byzantium had been reduced more or less to Turkey and Greece; the Egyptian Copts were a minority in a Muslim country. It must have looked like curtains at the time.

The fasces were used in Rome as a symbol of authority, but the term fascism is much more recent. The funny thing is that economic fascism was closer to state socialism than capitalism. Capitalism was permitted, but heavily regulated and controlled, as you'd expect from Mussolini, who'd started out as a socialist. My googling confirms what I learnt decades ago: the fasces were meant to symbolise strength through unity (harder to break a bundle than a twig) and were first used by revolutionary socialists.

The_Commisar Posted on 18/11 15:31
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

I suppose I will have to take your post apart line by line, why is it that these people don't grasp the simple stuff ?

1300, arbitrary date, approx 800 years ago, you can go 100 years either side of that and your argument falls over.
The 4th crusade was in 1204/5 ( Dandolo's conquest of Constaninople) and by that time the Byzantine empire was at one of it's lowest points, Orthodoxy had taken hold in the balkans, but seriously low population in that area (Wars of Basil Bulgaroctonos had deplted the lands).
So now we have killed the "but Christianity was bigger" argument.
None of the above googled, you either know it or you don't.
I notice you have adopted your favourite ploy of changing the issue once you have been shown to be wrong.
Facist - probably, more a corporatist with marxist tendencies if you want to be pedantic.
Which I assume you do.
Now, what would you like to try next ?

Inage Posted on 18/11 15:41
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

Zaphod: Thanks for that and I acknowledge my mistake in you saying 1200 years ago and then me going on to quote 800 years ago. Islam did rapidly conquer the Middle East, North Africa and as you say Iberia and Sicily from its original beginnings in Mecca/Medina sometime around 1450 years.

I'm still a bit unsure about numbers because the majority of the lands under Islam were desert and sparcely populated but maybe the whole of W. Europe then would have had, at a guess around 10,000,000 people.

It's true that "Fascism", Nazism and Communism started by purporting to be "socialist" movements and became progressively totalitarian and later having all the traits of classical "right wing" dictatorships. I see Islam in the same light and with a bigger danger as it is a "religion".

Inage Posted on 18/11 16:02
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

Commisar: I could say that it's you that is changing the point of the original argument about the origins of "fascist". I have commented and disagreed, no more than that, about the relative sizes of adherents to a specific faith round about 800 years ago.

In the absence of provable figures (census), it's only my perception against yours.

You really are a prat, you go on quoting this and that "fact". There is no way of knowing how big the relative populations were.

Let's get back to the origins of the term "fascist" shall we? And no more of this "opinion" that they were not originally socialist in concept but corporatist.

Did they sell themselves as corporatists? Was their manifesto and party slogans "corporatist"?

One further point, you responded to the question of what good had the communists done in the last 75 years by that (competition = good) and had thus strengthened the West. Pretty glib statement. How does that equate to competition between Arabs and everybody else? Has it strengthened the Arabs?

Your arguments or observations are clouded by your own perception and are shown to be flawed and you attack me from a position of weakness. Just a prat.

If I was you, rather than suggesting me taking "the honourable solution", I suggest that you consider it for yourself as your clearly failing.

--- Post edited by Inage on 18/11 16:16 ---

blotonthelandscape Posted on 18/11 16:03
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

I can never understand why people get involved in these political debates.

Lefty3668 Posted on 18/11 16:06
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

blot

The_Commisar Posted on 18/11 16:54
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

OK, as it's you I will keep this simple

No it is not my perception re size of cultures, based upon the sizes of the main centres of poulation at that time, and the primary sources for the period it is not difficult to arrive at the conclusion that the moslem world in the 12th, 13th and 14th century was more populated than the Christian west, can I suggest that if you dispute this you go look at the literature for this period. It is a fact as much as any historical fact is.

Next - facist, look, facists took their name from the fasces, the roman symbol of power and authority (in the domestic arena) I have never said the facists were corporatists or similar, I simply pointed out that you did not understand the meaning and derivation of the word. You proved this with your response.


Regarding former soviet states. now if you read the post, it asked what good came from these groups, it did not state to whom or for whom. However clearly an impact of the cold war was that the west achieved significant jumps in technology as a result of it's competition with the east - ergo, a benefit.

Corporatism - please indulge me, just where have I said facism equates to coporatism, thats a leap you have made.


Arguments and observations from my perception, well, I suppose you could argue that, as I am expressing my opinions and views, it would be difficult to use the 3rd person as a debating tool in this case.

So far all you have done is show you have a poor grasp of history, a poor grasp of politics and can't hold a debate.

Going on your previous form you will now say "but my board persona is tottaly different to the real me and I'm only winding people up" . Sure, you still are ignorant of some basic facts though.

If you do want to shoot yourself in the brain, you'd probably want to stick the barrel of the gun up your sphincter. Judging by the intelectual capacity you have demonstrated on this thread, you had better be a good shot, hitting something so small will represent challenge.

That was my parthian shot BTW.

tees_tug Posted on 18/11 17:02
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

Am I the only one who thinks it was a bad idea for Commisar to have bought himself those 'Teach Yourself World History In 24 Hours' DVD's?

Sceptic_Frank Posted on 18/11 17:12
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

Admitedly demonising Arabs is stupid and, yes jimmy, we should criticise our own country but it does seem that sometimes on here that's all you ever hear. America is Evil! Capitilism is is ruining the world! They (whoever 'they' are) are controlling us, we are all pawns! I think that's why so many people are turned off by left-wing politics, because often it seems to almost entirely consist of exaggerated criticism, usually in a manner that attempts to make people feel guiltly.

Inage Posted on 18/11 17:14
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

T_T: He can't let go it's like arguing with a woman. He has to have the last word. Well I'll indulge the prat. No more debate. I'll leave him to his glorified "opinions" of himself and matters of history.

Gillandi Posted on 18/11 17:20
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

"It's like arguing with a woman."

Oh dear.

tees_tug Posted on 18/11 17:20
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

He's going through his Lord Blackadder phase, the rest of us are mere Baldricks compared to his wit and wisdom.

Nedkat Posted on 18/11 17:23
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

We are all prawns ??

Oh, shyte .. I knew that would happen.

I'm a prawn again, christian.

The_Commisar Posted on 18/11 18:07
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

I think that's a points victory.
As opposed to a pyhric victory.

flash_harry_boro Posted on 18/11 18:09
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

My opinion on this without sounding too harsh is that both RR and LJ are anglophobes who have nothing better to do in their lives than sulk and complain how unlucky they are in life. Major chips on shoulders. Of course this is my opinion and i dont want to offend either.

littlejimmy Posted on 18/11 20:55
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

FFS. Listen. I'm not an anyone-aphobe or an anyone-aphile. I don't judge anyone by their nationality or their skin colour. I don't hate England or the English. I don't hate America or Americans. I just speak up about people or administrations doing bad things, whether they're English, American, Chinese, Palestinian, Martian or whatever. Just because I speak up against people from my own creed or culture doesn't mean I hate them. I suppose it just stands out more when I'm vocal about what I see as wrong-doings. I see my relationship with my country and peers as a an adult relationship, not the relationship between a child and it's mother. I would speak up against my brother if he did something wrong. Believe me.

At the end of the day, I know that we are all humans and we are all flawed. We all have our own chips on our shoulders. We all have our own individual views of the world. We're all full of love and we're all full of hate. We're all hypcorites. I swing between thinking we are bound by a common humanity and one day we'll all live in peace and harmony and thinking that we're nothing more than a an agressive virus that should be wiped from the face of a planet we don't deserve to inhabit. It depends on my mood.

*Gets down from soap-box*

BTW, this thread has to be one of the most educational I've ever read.

littlejimmy Posted on 18/11 20:59
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

And Harry, I don't bitch about my own life very much. Now and again, yes. But I know that I'm lucky to be born in a resource-rich, wealthy country in a nice temperate climate. It doesn't stop me from seeing what's wrong in the world and wanting to change it, even if my efforts are restricted to typing a load of crap on a football message board.

Maybe I should give up and be blindly proud of our Turkish patron saint. . As the song goes:

"I can't change the world, but I can change the world in me."

--- Post edited by littlejimmy on 18/11 21:14 ---

irishjohn Posted on 18/11 21:00
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

I don`t believe them about the chip on your shoulder.
If it was there im sure you would have smoothered it in brown sauce and eat it.

littlejimmy Posted on 18/11 21:15
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

I like my chips with mayonnaise. That's my Germano-phile side.

irishjohn Posted on 18/11 21:17
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

smiles

Grumpy_Paul Posted on 18/11 21:40
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

Blot

"I can never understand why people get involved in these political debates"

Because it's fun to watch them develop so long as you don't take yourself too seriously.


Goodness me people, whilst admitting the way my initial post was worded it could be seen as anti Arab, far from it, I was really trying to ask why some posters appear to be so anti West and are consistantly critical of the UK and other Western nations. I thought I made that clear in subsequent posts.

I'd be really interested to condense this thread into non googled posts, I guess it would be only about 20% of what it actually is

littlejimmy Posted on 18/11 21:48
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

Yeah, blot.
And fast food is bad for you. Just as sure as the Rt. Hon. T. Blair is a liar.
Haven't you seen "Super Size Me"?

And Grumpy, I think it was Einstein who said "Don't memorise anything you can look up in 2 minutes." I don't think he had the internet and google in mind, like.

--- Post edited by littlejimmy on 18/11 21:49 ---

Grumpy_Paul Posted on 18/11 21:53
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

Jimmy

Einstein ?
not all he's cracked up to be
It's only a theory, not proven.

The_Commisar Posted on 18/11 21:59
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

GP - I am happy to say I googled once, and thats it.
LJ, glad you enjoyed it

red_rebel Posted on 18/11 22:18
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

Why do we lefties appear so anti-English?

I think it is natural. Those inclined to dissent, or campigning for social reform or against some perceived wrong almost always define themselves as standing against the establishment.

In our case that establishment is the English state. Our soul mates in France would be seen as anti-French, in America as anti-Uncle Sam. I don't think that is remarkable or even controversial.

Being denounced as anti-English has a long history. Those who, say, campaigned against slavery or for womens or universal sufferage were also denounced as being anti-English. "If you love liberty and fraternity so much why don't you go and live in France".

Yet today when we define "Englishness" we trumpet our pioneering social progress: the abolition of slavery, parliamnetary democracy, the welfare state... the very things that the predecessors of the people denouncing me now fought against and denounced as unworkable, undesirable, dangerous and foreign.

All social progress in history has come through the pressure of those who are against their own government, whether overt militants or studious liberal reformist.

Conflict with the state, making demands and unruly dissidents constantly asking for more is the engine of history. We liberals, reds, chartists, sufferagettes, democrats, anarchists and Guardianista do-gooders are the architects of all that you claim to be good in society.

You, the ones who claim to be preserving Englishness and stand against we dissidents, your antecedents were the ones fighting to preserve slavery and prevent democarcay.

littlejimmy Posted on 18/11 22:19
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

Ex-fooking-zactly.

red_rebel Posted on 18/11 22:24
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

Supplementary bulllshitting:

On a different issue this thread has been very intersting because it is always eye-opening to get away from our own narrow self-justifying view of history.

We are brought up with an Anglo-centric 1066 And All That view of history that reinforces a cultural attitude that England is great and unique and has some pre-ordained position of superiority.

Other nations and other cultures have their histories too and they are equally valid and sometimes more interesting. The Arab perpective is illuminating and given the current political tensions is perhaps one we should be more aware of.

Grumpy_Paul Posted on 18/11 22:44
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

red_reb

I'm too cynical to be a part of the Land of Hope and Glory style bullshine and am not sentimental or naive enough to believe we are and have been the great benevolent nation that some would have us believe.

You have come closest but no one has yet answered , why have a pop at our nation at every opportunity.

Plain English rather than intelectual discussion would be appreciated.

I'm not very intelligent and very blinkered.

littlejimmy Posted on 18/11 22:59
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

Oh drop the blinkered thing. I retract it, alright?

Grumpy_Paul Posted on 18/11 23:03
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

Jimmy
See apology on other thread.
I reiterate it here,
My apologies for sarcasm

littlejimmy Posted on 18/11 23:05
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

Accepted.

You are a bit of an exaggerater, though. We don't criticise at EVERY opportunity. There's not enough time in the day!

red_rebel Posted on 18/11 23:10
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

Grumpy, don't give me that humble, not intelligent spiel please. You are a wily old dog.

Simply, if you are against something in society where do you direct your protest and your anger? At your own government.

If you want to change something, where do you apply pressure?

Imperialism and globalisation plus modern communications have widen the scope and now there is now a whole mosaic of obvious wrongs for people to be angered by and most of them are the direct or indirect product of an ruthless economic system.

The discussions may be more complex now but for me it boils down to morality. Something is either wrong or it isn't. And if it is wrong then it should not be ignored simply because it is being done to benefit your own nations interest.

There is one other issue too possibly: the pyschology of dissent. Once you step outside the magic circle of belief in your own state it is almost impossible to step back in.

If you come into conflict with the state - through a strike, or protest agains the poll tax, a campaign against racism, or against a hospital closure or whatever, sometimes it it doesn't matter - if you start to question its authority, validity and fundemental nature then your eyes are opened.

You are pushed into a position of dissent that you either accept or don't. If you don't accept that role but are aware of the nature of the state you become cynical and bitter and dismissive of any possibility of change.

But if you accept then yyou are locked into opposition, a cycle of protest. The state is an interlocked network of interests. If you oppose it on one issue the logic drives you to you oppose it on others. You develop a comprehensive viewpoint and eventually you become and instinctive dissident.

I don't know when or why I developed this mentality but certainly it was there already before I became politicised through Rock Against Racism. I always supported the Sioux against the cowboys for instance and certainly the Viet Cong against the Americans.

But I am happy with this viewpoint. It is underpinned by belief in egalitariansism and social justice. I am comfortable. I feel morally I am able to justify my existance.

I sure as hell couldn't face the alternative which seems to be unthinking, or uncaring, or consciously and public support for all manner of nasty things done in my name.

Grumpy_Paul Posted on 18/11 23:11
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

I have to exaggerate

Seems like I'm out on my own taking on the whole of the the world's intelligencia.

Where the hell is Moxy when I need him

irishjohn Posted on 18/11 23:19
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

This is utter drivel from all, belongs on the Discovery channel board... apt name would be... Conspiracey did they fly me to the moon board.
Some bores repeating their politcal stance and repeating history to me about the violent and political struggles of yesteryear.
would the same people sheet their draws at the first sign of trouble in a pub.
I guess they just enjoy reading about all and such and then spouting about it.
Pier-end entainment

littlejimmy Posted on 18/11 23:22
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

IJ, you need to go to the boroboy school of sniping.

Grumpy_Paul Posted on 18/11 23:23
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

red_reb
"Grumpy, don't give me that humble, not intelligent spiel please. You are a wily old dog"

Honest, 3 O Levels ( one of them seamanship, FFS ) and a cycling proficiency is all I have to offer.

Wily old dog indeed

Less of the old please

irishjohn Posted on 18/11 23:39
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

I`m that poor am I?
Hey I enjoyed this thread to a point..well at least until the cans kicked in and I`ve had a rough week.
However I`ve found it informative and boring...bit like a wife yapping about but without the threepenny bits to look at whilst shes talking to me.
So maybe I aint any good just yet but I wanna try.
Who knows .. new name... new board..Google a bit and come back prepared, or I could always just ask questions as Iam stuck for answers
I imagine these people RR..COMI ..YOU ..GP..Tug.. Inage etc ...strange dudes

red_rebel Posted on 19/11 1:10
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

Strange dudes indeed.

Grumpy_Paul Posted on 19/11 1:29
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

Dude, Flippin' dude, never been called a dude before.
I love this board, makes me feel young (ish) all over again.

br14 Posted on 19/11 1:51
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

Is it over?

Oh well and after I read all those posts.

Just to take issue with one point.
"ultimately the subjection of the whole of the Muslim world to the West"

A poster obviously too young to remember the 3 day week.

Grumpy_Paul Posted on 19/11 2:32
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

br14

good point

It's always held over our heads

Inage Posted on 19/11 6:44
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

Commisar: You can't take part in the match and act as judge and referee yourself, not just a prat but conceited with it. You must have had a strange education.

The_Commisar Posted on 19/11 8:05
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

AS you waved a white flag, resorted to cheap sexist jibes and changed the subject totally, I withdraw my points win comment and replace it with a straight knock out.

So whats your next debating technique ?
"he argues like a disabled person"
"this is pointless, he doesn't have blonde hair and blue eyes "

(am I still arguing like a woman ?)

--- Post edited by The_Commisar on 19/11 8:39 ---

red_rebel Posted on 19/11 11:52
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

.

--- Post edited by red_rebel on 19/11 12:06 ---

irishjohn Posted on 19/11 11:57
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

Meanwhile somwhere at the other end of a cable.

Grumpy_Paul Posted on 20/11 0:34
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

Dammit nearly made my first century

end of



--- Post edited by Grumpy_Paul on 20/11 0:36 ---

Boro_Gadgie Posted on 20/11 1:56
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

And what have you given to the world Grumpy Paul, apart from threads so bloody long, I don't have the time or inclination to read every single post, even though I'm sure there's some very good ones!

Grumpy_Paul Posted on 20/11 2:04
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

Gadgie
I am neither wealthy nor influential and so cannot offer a lot on the world scale. I do however live a law abiding decent life and offer lots of love to my family and others who enter into my life.
I work hard and contribute to the pot in order to assist others.
To sum up, I see myself as an ordinary decent bloke like the vast majority on this board and out there in the real world.

End of now please people, I don't want a false century

Boro_Gadgie Posted on 20/11 2:12
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

What I should have said was "threads that are so long, I'm too damned lazy to read through each post".

Anyway, there's no such thing as a "false" century. I yearn for such a thing. I've probably got 100 "1" posts to my name. Does that count?

When Ian Botham got his 149 not out at Headingley in 1981, which almost single handedly turned the course of that summer's ashes series, there were top edges and miscues aplenty, but did anyone say it was a false century - didtheyeckerslike!

Anyhow, I'm half cut and starting to sober up, so I'll leave you tanterlisingly stranded on 99 not out...

bungydinsdale Posted on 20/11 2:22
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

Move along now, nothing to see here 'cept yer average, run of the mill, 100 post...

Inage Posted on 20/11 7:38
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

Commisar: Firstly to state "that it's like arguing with a woman" is not strictly sexist. It is just making a comparison. It is a well known "fact" that women's brains work differently to those of men. If you don't believe that just google it like you usually do.

Secondly, I am neither racist, sexist or any other kind of 'ist apart from maybe being "p'ist" sometimes.

Lastly, your declaration of victory is of no value. Read most of the other posts with comments on "fascist" etc., and I think you'll find that you lose the debate.

I don't wish to label anybody and rarely do. However, in your case I've made an exception and called you a prat. Sorry if it offends.

The_Commisar Posted on 20/11 7:57
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

Inage
You have been wrong in the majority of your posts.
Your post was sexist as it inferred that to adopt a femal stance when debating is somehow less appropriate than a male stance.

I am only offended by having to continually correct you.


I have googled once on this thread as I couldn't recall the name of the roman administrators who carried the fasces.

I claim victory on the basis that each and every point I have challenged you on, you have been either wrong or not bothered to answer.

I note that your apologising follows the trend you have adopted elsewhere of "I'm noy usually like this, it's only an internet message board". As predicted.

If you want to enter into debate rather than just playing the pedagogue, you could try answering directly the various questions posed to you and accepting that you have been factually wrong on a number of occaisions.

--- Post edited by The_Commisar on 20/11 7:59 ---

Inage Posted on 20/11 12:49
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

Commisar: I should really have stated its like arguing with a child, a pedant, an idealogue or perhaps somebody with a compulsive personality (I was going to state disorder but that's too strong). You're only trying to wind me up.

Otley_Boro_Fan Posted on 20/11 13:02
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

I'd just like to congratulate my old mate GP for getting his 100 up.

zaphod Posted on 20/11 13:10
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

Call me stupid, but I really don't see why Commissar and Inage got into hostilities. Their differences are not that serious. Can someone explain it to me?

Boro_Gadgie Posted on 20/11 13:40
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

Good point zaphod. Unfortunately it's becoming rather symptomatic of this board in recent years, where occasionally it gets quite bitchy. There's no need for all this calling and insults. It's very easy to be aggressive from behind a computer keyboard. Whatever happened to "net-iquette"?

One or two people need to take a step back, look at what they've said and chill out a bit.

--- Post edited by Boro_Gadgie on 20/11 14:16 ---

Inage Posted on 20/11 14:11
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

Zaphod: I said he had "fascist" tendencies because he suggested I blow my brains out in a less than humourous way. I once dropped it but he wanted to continue. Anyway, like you say it's pathetic really. Trying to score Brownie points. Pathetic really.

littlejimmy Posted on 20/11 16:07
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

If I said that the sun came up in the morning, someone would take issue with me. Probably tees_tug.

tees_tug Posted on 20/11 16:10
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

There have been a few days recently when the sun has failed to come up.

red_rebel Posted on 20/11 22:59
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

Oh go on then....

Little Jimmy:

The sun DOESN'T "come up" every morning. That implies motion on the Sun's part and as we all know the epi-center of our solar system is static.

(As we know apart from fundementalist literalists who go by the biblical position that the Sun moves around somewhere between the fixed position of Earth and Heaven!)

* ground bait scattered near reed bed*

--- Post edited by red_rebel on 20/11 23:00 ---

littlejimmy Posted on 20/11 23:00
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

Nice one, RR.
But the sun does move. It orbit the Milky Way.

Lincoln_Exile Posted on 20/11 23:02
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

Wouldn't a milky way melt ?

red_rebel Posted on 20/11 23:14
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

Yes LJ, it does. And the Islamic scholars knew that.

littlejimmy Posted on 20/11 23:15
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

Muslim scholars knew that? Are you saying Muslims are better than us? Are you? Eh? Eh?

Lincoln_Exile Posted on 20/11 23:19
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

LilJim and RedReb, can either of you tell me what defines a muslim ? and why, they often seem to be refered to as 'muslim' rather then their nationality, why not say islamic ?

littlejimmy Posted on 20/11 23:25
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

Er, no. Can't be arsed to be honest.
What point are you trying to make?

Lincoln_Exile Posted on 20/11 23:26
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

No 'point' just wondered thats all

wikpediaed it myself, cheers anyway

--- Post edited by Lincoln_Exile on 20/11 23:32 ---

littlejimmy Posted on 20/11 23:28
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

Muslim and Islamic are the same, as far as I know.
And it's a religious identity, not a national one. Anyone from any country can be a Muslim.

Lincoln_Exile Posted on 20/11 23:37
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

If your interested

A Muslim (Arabic: and#1605;and#1587;and#1604;and#1605;) is an adherent of Islam. Literally, the word means someone who has submitted/surrendered himself or herself to the will of God.

Most Muslims accept as a fellow Muslim anyone who has sincerely pronounced the Shahada, a ritual declaration of submission to God and assertion that Muhammad is the last prophet. Muslims describe many Biblical figures, such as Musa (Moses) and Isa (Jesus), as Muslims because they submitted completely to God.

Grumpy_Paul Posted on 21/11 0:34
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

Didn't really want this to go on but do feel the need to clarify.

The sun always comes up in these latitudes, it just happens to be obscured by cloud cover.

Where do you think your F'in daylight comes from

Teasy Weasy

tees_tug Posted on 21/11 0:37
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

When I said that the sun had failed to come up. I meant for all intents and purposes, that it failed to show.

Like it might have been there, but not in a practical and useful way.

Grumpy_Paul Posted on 21/11 0:55
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

Tug

Teasy Weasy

Do Ireally need to say more?

tees_tug Posted on 21/11 0:57
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

Grumpy, Teasy Weasy. I know! You are going to get one of those 'nice' mens hair do's?

Grumpy_Paul Posted on 21/11 1:00
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

Tug



Grand national and all that I presume

--- Post edited by Grumpy_Paul on 21/11 1:01 ---

tees_tug Posted on 21/11 1:02
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

Suits you sir.

zaphod Posted on 21/11 9:38
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

I don't know if this is the derivation of the word Muslim, but in Swahili, the prefix M or Mu means someone who belongs to a group: Mtanzania is a Tanzanian and MuIslam is an adherent of Islam. Not far linguistically from MuIslam to Muslim. Having spent a lot of time in Swahili-speaking East Africa, I've always assumed that was where the English word came from.

Lefty3668 Posted on 21/11 11:21
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

Well I really enjoyed this thread, PARTICULARLY the argument between Inage and Commissar. I've got to disagree with Boro Gadgie. There can be something wonderfully entertaining and clever about good insults.

As long as it isn't just swearing and repetitive which those two weren't. And it shows passion. More please.

By the way Reb, why did you edit your post of 11:52 on 19/11. That was superb and I was rubbing my hands in glee looking forward to the response

Other than that I was a little disappointed that Kilburns post early on wasn't developed.

Red_Slim Posted on 21/11 12:47
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

I tend to agree Lefty3668; A fine thread that I confess I didn't read until today due to the title.

R_R, After Lefty's comment I'm intrigued as to what your deleted post contained and more so why you chose to delete it?

red_rebel Posted on 21/11 14:03
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

It was something and nothing. A bit of mischief making that I withdrew because it was a little bit of provocation.

mattfj Posted on 21/11 14:08
re: LJ, RR and the adoring flock of sheep

UK-winning WW2.