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grantus Posted on 22/5 12:57
Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

How boring it it? You've been spouting the same thing for 2 weeks now. Give it a break, it's pathetic.

You don't want Mowbray, really? Don't you? Tell us something we dont know.

Find something to complain about that is actually real / going to happen?

Mowbray has commited himself to Hibs for the forseeable future. If you read the Scottish press, you'd know this.

sasboro Posted on 22/5 13:00
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

i dont have a problem with mogga, just loads of people seem to think he should be next boro manager just because he is an ex captain. he's yet to really do anything in scotland to prove he is a premiership manager. IMO, he should go to ipswich rahter than staying with hibs

borodoosra Posted on 22/5 13:00
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

I'm still awaiting his long promised announcement of El Tel's appointment. According to his 'source' it's definitely going to happen today.

sasboro Posted on 22/5 13:01
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

its stuck with the lawyers as they dont tend to work weekends. expect an announcment later in the week.

and to be fair i did say it would be venables way before the press got hold of it

borodoosra Posted on 22/5 13:04
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

If you pay Lawyers enough they work weekends. Fair to say that you're reacting to stories in the press.

Big_Shot Posted on 22/5 13:06
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

I agree with him, although I do find it funny when people try to come up with reasons why Mowbray should get the job.

wilfym Posted on 22/5 13:09
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

I cant see any valid reasons for any of the leading contenders at the moment including venables..i hope we havent shot ourselves in the foot with this must be an english manager thing.

sasboro Posted on 22/5 13:11
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

borodoosra, i did say on 4th may venables would get the job..anyway lets wait and see

perhaps mogga needs to move to ipswich and get them promoted and show he can do it in english football or perhaps he needs to firtst manager england and barcelona?io just find it funny that some fans really believe we are too good for some one like venables! reality check needed and how can they seriously think we will get a bigger manager than him. perhaps wenger,fergie or moriniho are in talks?

--- Post edited by sasboro on 22/5 13:13 ---

borodoosra Posted on 22/5 13:11
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

Would the two of you be happy with the appointment of a washed up crook?

wilfym Posted on 22/5 13:19
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

Venables even commented that he didnt know wether at 63 he could commit himself full time to football...anyway hes not long for this world at that age is he...get someone younger in.

BossHogg Posted on 22/5 13:22
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

Sas, how had Robbo and Mac proved themselves, before they were classed as 'worthy' of the job?

sasboro Posted on 22/5 13:25
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

robbo joined us in the league below and was the big name we needed with us going into a new stadium. he did attract biug players who woul dnot come if a manager like mogga was here.
in the end many on here think he was a poor manager and tactically inept.

smac, had been a assistant with manutd in a treble winning season.

whats mogga really done as a manager? he is making a mistake in not goign to ipswich as a opportunity like that may not come along again. maybe he feels he isnt ready to manage an club like ipswich?

Gillandi Posted on 22/5 13:26
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

Sas and Grantus have both been two of McClaren's biggest critics on here in the last few years so it's nice that they should be at loggerheads over who should replace him.

Dificult to replace a manager as good as that isn't it lads?

Big_Shot Posted on 22/5 13:27
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

I assume you mean Venables, I don't have any problems with any of the candidates other than opinions made from their previous managerial records, so nobody is a crook and nobody is the greatest hero of all time.

To be honest wilfy is right, its a pretty sorry bunch of managers really and most I wouldn't want to be our manager. I'd be okay with Venables and indeed he'd be my choice from the all the names mentioned. I think continuity is key and with us keeping the current backroom staff we can continue is the same direction we are trying to head. I feel Venables is the one who could offer us that. The current squad is about 3 top players away from potentially aiming for top 6, so if we can move on a few older squad players and replace them with better younger players. The current staff should already know this and with them working alongside Venables can advise him on who's good and who isn't. They also know all the young players and could pass their knowledge onto him so the youngsters wouldn't have to start from scratch again and impress a new manager. Also the introduction of senior pro's like Southgate and Cooper to the coachin staff could potentially lead us to be moulding future managers from within to continue in the same direction.

--- Post edited by Big_Shot on 22/5 13:29 ---

--- Post edited by Big_Shot on 22/5 13:29 ---

grantus Posted on 22/5 13:28
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

Shut it bozo.

I dont think it's difficult at all.

Sas, would you have Carlos Queroz (sp). Man Utd number 2?

BossHogg Posted on 22/5 13:30
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

"smac, had been a assistant with manutd in a treble winning season"

Emphasis on assistant, he didn't buy, sell, pick, drop players!

"maybe he feels he isnt ready to manage an club like ipswich?"

Because no doubt he has more faith in his ability than managing in the championship!

sasboro Posted on 22/5 13:35
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

"Sas, would you have Carlos Queroz (sp). Man Utd number 2?"

yes definatly before mogga,curbishley.etc. i mean hasnt he even been at reral madrid? when is mogga off to real madrid?

acklamlad Posted on 22/5 13:38
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

Mowbray aint coming to Boro. Will everyone please get used to it!!

grantus Posted on 22/5 13:41
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

He was at Real Madrid for 6 months and was then sacked. He was a failure.

So you would have someone who has assistant experience and was a failure as a manager because the clubs are prestigious. A foreigner, who's english isn't great, with no links to the club, with no proven ability of management at all.

You wouldn't have someone who has been a success manager and coach because his clubs aren't as prestigious. A local man, who knows our mind, who's team plays attractive football, who's won the top managerial award in the country he works, who is a natural leader of men, who comes across as intellegent and articulate, who's supporters adore both here and at the club he works.

I think you need to lie down.

--- Post edited by grantus on 22/5 13:42 ---

borodoosra Posted on 22/5 13:43
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

He was a great success at Real Madrid. I think he did 6 months. Sometimes you need to trust your instincts (as Gibson did with Robson and McClaren) and go with who you thinks is a correct appointment. This may have nothing to do with achievements or experience.

scoea Posted on 22/5 13:47
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

As everyone knows, Sas and I rarely see eye to eye. However, on this occasion I have to support him.

He is absolutely right about Mowbray who I would not want to see as Boro manager, at least not yet.

All he ever does is respond to those that champion Mowbray as our next manager, which he is perfectly entitled to do.

grantus Posted on 22/5 13:49
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

No, he keeps posting silly threads about other managers in scotland. Managers that are obviously not suitable. The responses are like a broken record too.

wilfym Posted on 22/5 13:50
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

You mean in your opinion hes right obviously?

sasboro Posted on 22/5 13:51
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

i have to keep posting unknown scottish managers as they are doing a similar job to mogga upthere

borodoosra Posted on 22/5 13:53
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

So is Big Ron doing the same job as El Tel then?

grantus Posted on 22/5 13:54
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

So they all won Scottish manager of the year then? So there are all Boro legends are they?

You have made your point sas.

Rather than just continually knock a candidate that plenty would be happy with, why not actually think about being constructive, offering a realistic alternative?

Surely there's more to life than knocking one of the greatest Boro icons of our lifetime.

bandito Posted on 22/5 13:55
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

I'm with sas on this one. I think some people need to take off their championship manager specs and really think about how difficult a job it would be for Mogga to come here and take the club forward. It's hard enough maintaining what we've got but the club is now at a stage where progression is key. We canot afford anymore risks. We now have the best youth academy set up in the country and an sprinkling of very good players. Everything is in place to kick on and flourish.. I dont think Mowbray is the man. Let's see him cut his teeth with an established lower leage side. For Mowbray to suddenly waltz into the Premiership and be expected to pack the place out with scintillating football and teesside grit aint gonna happen. I'd love it to happen but realistically some people are living in cuckoo land. Gibson needs to think hard on this one and appointing Mogga would be the easy option at the moment but when we find out that we are in for a struggle, what then? Ideally, if one must appoint an up n coming manager, and Mogga is certainly that then at least appoint someone who has experience of taking a team up into the premiership.

grantus Posted on 22/5 14:00
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

For one, Mowbray may well bring full houses and scintilating winning football to the RIverside. You wouldn't know. Who says it would be expected?

Championship Manager glasses, get real. There are many reasons to appoint Mowbray, yes there are reasons against.

We'll find that to be the case with 90% of the names put forward and we'll debate and disagree amongst ourselves at all of them.

I don't mind people not wanting Mowbray and I can see why they dont.

What I don't really see is a better alternative being justified than..

Venables as Director and Mowbray as manager.

What I am sick of is reading the same shyt everyday saying No to Mowbray. He's not even coming anyway.

borodoosra Posted on 22/5 14:01
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

So how did McClaren succeed?

bandito Posted on 22/5 14:03
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

well if he isnt coming anyway, maybe Gibson doesnt want to take the risk either. Doesnt that tell you something. Anyway, for what it's worth the club needs continuity, Venables would keep us ticking over and Southgate would command the respect of the players.

bandito Posted on 22/5 14:05
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

McClaren succeeded cos he has worked with the best. 5 yrs with Sir alex is a good enough learning curve for Gibson to have taken a risk and it was a risk that paid off. Who has mogga worked with...George Burley...do me a favour

--- Post edited by bandito on 22/5 14:06 ---

scoea Posted on 22/5 14:09
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

Mowbray is nowhere near good enought o be our manager. I would be delighted if he was but he isn't.

Bandito and Sas are right. We need two things here, firstly someone who is experienced in our country, is a good coach with a proven track record and can take us further than previous managers and secondly, someone who can do all that without the need for us to tear up the existing structure and start again.

I can think of noone better placed to do that than Venables.

grantus Posted on 22/5 14:10
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

So who did Ferguson work with, what about Wenger?

You need to take each individual on their merits, experience is a part of that.

Jenson Buttin got a ride in F1 at a very young age.
Owen, Rooney, Walcott all got into England squads at an extremely young age.
Coleman got a Premiership managers job with no experience, Fulham consider him a success.
Bobby Robson got a Premiership managers job with 25 odd years management experience. Some say he did well others not.

There's more to it than experience, if he has the talent, has the ability, then waiting is just wasting time.

Some of you dont seem able to understand this. Thats ok, lets go get Ron Atkinson, he's got loads of top flight experience.

Gillandi Posted on 22/5 14:10
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

I'm with Sasboro on this one too.

bandito Posted on 22/5 14:14
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

So grantus, who should be offered the Boro job in your opinion and why?

grantus Posted on 22/5 14:15
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

The reason he isn't coming to Boro is because he has publicly stated his commitment to Hibs, not because Gibson doesn't want him. He feels he hasn't finished his job there.

With Tony Mowbray you can believe his word. That means he isn't coming.

He's not like McClaren, he doesn't talk utter shyte.

sasboro Posted on 22/5 14:17
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

unless he gets hibs to over achieve massively then he needs a step between boro and hibs. I thought ipswich would have been ideal.do a wigan and get them promoted and finish midtable in the premiership and get them to a cup final. i'm surpised he didnt take the ipswich job. perhaps he feels he isnt yet ready to take the step up to a championship side. I feel mogga is the sort of manager who likes his mangerial career to progress gradually.perhaps he will stay at hibs for 4 years and then step up to a championship side..

borodoosra Posted on 22/5 14:19
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

Venables has not managed for three years and judging by his performance on tv last Wednesday has lost the plot. I also would not trust him with a burger bar let alone the most promising set of youngsters in the club's history. The only reason for appointing him appears to be the fact that he will mentor Southgate - a player with absolutley no experience of coaching or managing. Does Southgate want this to happen? Will he be any good? Why should we take the risk? Let Southgate learn his trade elsewhere and come back when he's proved himself.

bandito Posted on 22/5 14:19
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

to me it looks like he's taking the easy option. A few more yrs at hibs in the comfort zone cos he is fearful. Why did he knock back Ipswich. A perfect job for an up n coming manager out to prove his worth. Why the hell would anyone with ambition hang around at hibs? He's achieved all he can there!

grantus Posted on 22/5 14:24
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

Personally I want Mowbray. So this is what works for me and in this order.

1) Mowbray
2) Venables and Mowbray
3) Hitzfeld
4) Houllier

Something like that.

borodoosra Posted on 22/5 14:26
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

Perhaps he thinks he can achieve more - look at Hearts. Also, perhaps loyalty comes into it. A word perhaps we do not associate with managers given McClaren's disregard for it over the last few years.

scoea Posted on 22/5 14:30
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

Your last sentence makes no sense. He was disloyal and yet stayed for 5 years?

Mowbray is not some kind of saint. Despite what he has said, if Boro came knocking he'd be here like a shot.

bandito Posted on 22/5 14:32
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

In all seriousness, you have to question Mogga's ambition if he prefers to stop at HIbs than take charge of Ipswich. I'd prefer a manager with ambition and belief in his ability than a manager who is loyal anyday.

Grantus: How the hell can you justify having Mowbray ahead of Hitzfeld?

Are you letting your heart rule your head?

grantus Posted on 22/5 14:32
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

Mowbray is considered to be one if not the brightest young British amangers around.

Perhaps he didn't go to Ipswich becuse he feels as though his next step from Hibs should be to the Premiership, not a Championship side.

He has already managed Ipswich.

You say he should go to Ipswich, "do a wigan" midtable Premiership and cup final, so that they would be a team in Europe, then he should come to Boro. Why come to Boro when the club he's would be at would more than likely be more succesful and would be a team he has built himself. Why would he come when he is already a succesful Premiership Manager?

Cuckoo land.

I think you underestimate his ambitions.

borodoosra Posted on 22/5 14:33
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

He would have jumped at the chance to leave and you know it. Comparing Ipswich to Hibs is hardly the same as comparing Boro to Hibs. Of course he'd jump at the chance.

grantus Posted on 22/5 14:36
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

At hibs he gets European experience, he does not at Ipswich.

I can justify why, you wont agree, but I can make what I consider a decent case based on logical reasons. I'm just sick of writing why I want Mowbray as the next Boro manager, I've been writing this on here since last year.

Thing is, we have fundamental differences in our opinions of what is required, what is essential criteria and what is beneficial, so it doesn't really matter.

Suffice to say, I can justify it, trust me.

Big_Shot Posted on 22/5 14:43
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

Surely by competing in a bigger more competitive league such as the 1st division where you can potentially achieve reachable goals such as promotion and play offs will give you more experience than getting stuffed by one of the also rans in the UEFA Cup first round.

sasboro Posted on 22/5 14:43
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

didnt hibs get tonked by some crappy european team 5-1?

BTW, can anyone confirm that boro have enquired about mogga?I know ipswich have but not seen anything to say gibson has

--- Post edited by sasboro on 22/5 14:45 ---

grantus Posted on 22/5 14:47
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

The Scottish Premier League is of no less standard to the Championship.

Rangers and Celtic and of Premier League standard, just about.

Hibs and Hearts are borderline.

They f'cked up in Europe, so what, so did Man Utd, so did Everton. Wenger was just about making a career out of f'cking up in Europe with one hell of a squad of players.

Your point is what exactly?

Big_Shot Posted on 22/5 14:53
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

Hibs and Hearts are borderline what, PL standard, you're joking right. The standard of the clubs in the SPL after the top 2 are very poor (maybe a little unfair on Hearts as they have closed the gap this season). Most of the SPL side are potentially even below the 1st divison standards. Where you have a much bigger league with a lot of sides capable of challenging for the top places. Fairly tough division where the lower clubs are quite capable of beating the top ones. Much tougher task getting out of the 1st division than finishing 4th in the SPL.

--- Post edited by Big_Shot on 22/5 14:54 ---

bandito Posted on 22/5 14:53
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

the team he fooked up against was pants. Thats the difference. The even mention Wnger and ferguson is very naive. He also got dicked in the semi against hearts - their fiercest rivals. Would Boro fans stand for that against newcastle? I very much doubt it. All mac had to do was show his teeth and people wanted him out. I reckon you should come back with some serious stats as to why you are so cocksure that MOgga would do a job here.

borodoosra Posted on 22/5 14:55
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

and you do likewise with Venables.

bandito Posted on 22/5 15:00
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

see your own thread

Pauluka Posted on 22/5 15:01
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

Venables is a HAS BEEN!!

Just what exactly has in done in the last 5 years?

Go on you Venables lovers tell me?

It just seems you want him to groom Southgate. Why FFS. We are bigger than that

--- Post edited by Pauluka on 22/5 15:03 ---

scoea Posted on 22/5 15:06
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

What has Mogga done in the last 4 years that makes you think he's the right man?

I think you have to look at someone's entire CV and not just a defined period because, as we know, Venables hasn't been a manager for the last 4 years.

Pauluka Posted on 22/5 15:08
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

Where have I said "I WANT MOGGA"

I haven't!!!!!!!

"Venables hasn't been a manager for 4 years" Oh yes I forgot, he done a great job at Leeds!!!!!!!!!!

grantus Posted on 22/5 15:08
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

Rangers and Celtic are definately of Premiership level.

Hearts came 2nd and Hibs have been up there the last two years, so I put them borderline. They are both better than Sunderland and Birmingham.

COming 4th in Scotland is easier than gaining promotion from the Championship. What a crock of shyt, it all depends on who the team is that you are managing.

I'd agree that the standard in the Scottish Premier would cover 2-3 leagues in England though.

Didn't Ferguson's United get dicked by Man City? Every team has its bad days. Even McClaren's Boro, they suffered our worst defeat for 50 years and you lot still loved him. Villa weren't exactly the greates either come to think of it.

Big_Shot Posted on 22/5 15:15
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

Brilliant, people are now making out Scottish football is better than it actually is to big up Mowbray.

grantus Posted on 22/5 15:18
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

No I'm not.

Are you really trying to tell me that Celtic and Rangers would not be established Premier League teams?

Celtic UEFA Cup finalists 3 yuears ago
Rangers 2nd Round of the Champions League

That would place the team above Rangers and Hibs who have also been in the top 4 for the last two season where? Bottom half of the Championship?

Like I said, borderline.

Stop talking shyte. I'm not bigging up anything. I dont expect Mowbray to come as Ive said. Its the anto campaign that is just plain old tedium in itself.

This place is just full of fat little trolls scratching their knackers looking for an argument. They should grow up.

scoea Posted on 22/5 15:19
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

Who do you want Pauluka?

Pauluka Posted on 22/5 15:19
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

Look on the other thread sas

peako_from_the_boro Posted on 22/5 15:25
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

For those that want evidence of Mogga getting teams out of the championship and into prem, have a look at who was the first team coach at Ipswich when Burley brought them up.

At Hib's he has made 2 mistakes in two years - Dnipro away and Jambo's in the semi's, ending up with a scoreline like our result against Seville when they went chasing the game.

He is by far and away better qualified to take us over than McClaren who set a lot of store on his reputation as a member of the treble winning team at Manu (Euro final in May) when he only joined in Feb of that year.

He has won manager of the year in a country where only two teams start the year with any expectations of success.

He has done it by achieving a blend of experience and bringing youngsters through, who are being fought over by the big two in Glasgow and due to the way his team battered Dnipro at home but hit the woodwork 5 times Dynamo Moscow came in for one as well.

In terms of "would his appointment be progress" then compared to McClaren, Mogga is a far more complete article than Mac was when he joined us, and probably a far more complete an article than any EPL appointment other then the Chelski boss in the last 5 years.

sunset_over_ici Posted on 22/5 15:27
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

More complete than Benitez?

Big_Shot Posted on 22/5 15:27
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

"Are you really trying to tell me that Celtic and Rangers would not be established Premier League teams?"

Don't think I've actually mentioned those 2.

The 'anti campaign' whatever that is, just seems to be people wanting someone to explain why Mowbray should be our manager, seems fair enough as people seem unable to answer why.

bandito Posted on 22/5 15:31
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

Results do the talking and as it stands Venables has far more than Mowbray. Now if it came to a choice of the two then I think I know who Gibson would choose. That's all it boils down to. People can talk Mowbray up to the hilt but all he has achieved is potential. Venables has the medals, the cv and the respect of the players. He also knows more about the modern day set up at Boro than Mogga. I think people forget he spend nearly everday here for 6 months working with the biggest crock of shyte I've had the misfortune of watching.

sasboro Posted on 22/5 15:34
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

i cant believe that some people are serious that mogga should be the next manager at boro. he has no experience of dealing with big internationals and spending 10-15m on players. he finished about 35 points behind the top team. only 1 point ahead of a team like kilmarnock! surely we have moved on from a being a club like charlton,portsmouth..etc We need a manager who can attract big class players. remember gibsaon saying that under lawrence we lost out on signing some players because he wasnt a big enough manager.

if mogga had never been captain of little boro 20 years ago he wouldnt even be getting a mention. perhaps the kilmarnock manager should get mentioned to?..just think about it!

borodoosra Posted on 22/5 15:34
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

The club needs passion and someone for the young players to look upto. I'm convinced that Mowbray will make a first class manager and feel that it's a risk worth taking to get some fire back in our bellies. We also need a manager with integrity and dignity.

peako_from_the_boro Posted on 22/5 15:38
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

Benitez is a great shout, and after a quick check of the table plus the promoted lot thats as far as I'm prepared to go, him and Mourinho.

Big Shot - I,ve put his case and tried to answer all the questions about why he should not be appointed. Can you summarise your view about why he should not.

Bandy - Venables did a cracking fire fighting job, but when he had the opportunity to go back full time he chose another and ended up a failure. For me Venables has about as much relevancy to modern football club management as George Graham, great guy back in the day, but not for the future.

janplanner Posted on 22/5 15:39
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

has anyone that wants mowbray actually been to easter road?

i think he's lovely and everything, but really, the spl is very poor and hibs aren't a great side. they'd struggle in the championship.

bandito Posted on 22/5 15:40
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

why should we take another risk? The club is bigger than that. We're not little Boro anymore. We're an established Premier League team and hopefully can look forward to seasons without relegation battles. I'd predict Mowbrays first real mission would be to dig us out of the bottom six come January

grantus Posted on 22/5 15:47
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

"if mogga had never been captain of little boro 20 years ago he wouldnt even be getting a mention."

But he was.

"why should we take another risk?"

Whoever we appoint, it will be a risk to some degree.

If we can get a manager who has recent experience of winning championships / cups / European competitions then yes, lets do it. I cant see these men coming to the Boro unfortunately.

I just dont think we have the pulling power of Chelsea, Liverpool, Arsenal, Man Utd, even Spurs, so I think the best bet is to get a young, hungry, ambitious manager whos career hasn't been tarnished by failure.

peako_from_the_boro Posted on 22/5 16:00
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

Bandy

In terms of a risk which is the greater - Mogga, currently overdelivering in the SPL or Venables who has not been in the game for 4 years, and with the exception of his 6 months at the Boro has been a disaster at every club he has been associated with since Euro '96.

SAS - 35 points behind the league winners - and we finished how many behind Chelsea? And by what standard have we moved on from being a club like Charlton, didn't they finish above us again last season?

With regards to transfer targets, the situation of us being an established Premier side, with a good salary structure and and a decent looking squad to play alongside should be way ahead in total than never heard of the manager. Under McClaren just which superstars from outside those already playing in England actually joined us - Rocky, Mendi and Juno is all I can think of. Would any of those not joined? Debatable.

And then there is Maccarone, the only really serious money foreigner McClaren bought. All the other serious money players McClaren bought were either English where our salary structure was probably a great incentive, ot foreigners already playing here who would have noticed and known about the Boro in terms of having to sell the club to them. On that basis why not trust Mogga with the transfer kitty.

--- Post edited by peako_from_the_boro on 22/5 16:04 ---

borodoosra Posted on 22/5 16:03
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

Bottom six at Xmas? Sounds familiar. Mogga will be the next England manager then. The appointment of any manager is a risk.

Big_Shot Posted on 22/5 16:10
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

Quite simply he hasn't done anything in his career after playing to warrant being considering for the managers job of a side aiming for the top 6 in the PL. He's managing one of the bigger sides in a poor league so finishing 4th is where Hibs should be anyway, so is hardly a great achievement. Sure he has done better than the last few Hibs managers, but that also means they have previously done bad jobs.

sasboro Posted on 22/5 16:13
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

why isnt george burley getting a mention?

borodoosra Posted on 22/5 16:17
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

Forget the pros and cons about his management skills and experience for a minute. Is the desire for Mowbray a plea to get some passion back at the club? The next England manager slowly sucked that out of us.

sasboro Posted on 22/5 16:19
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

"Forget the pros and cons about his management skills and experience for a minute"

yes, i agree whats management skills and expereince got to do with managing the uefa cup finalists

grantus Posted on 22/5 16:20
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

Both on and off the pitch.

For me, its one of the things that Mowbray could bring in more than anyone. He could also get the town talking, he would probably bring back some of the old school supporters who have walked away.

With Mowbray at the helm the matchday experience would be better, the Riverside would roar!

borodoosra Posted on 22/5 16:22
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

sas - judging by the inept performance at the final, not alot. Now what happened to that manager?

grantus Posted on 22/5 16:22
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

sas, bigshot, bandy.

If hypothetically speaking, Mowbray was appointed as manager, would you complain, and moan or would you put down your concerns and back him?

If things got difficult, would you get straight on his back, stating I told you so?

bandito Posted on 22/5 16:24
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

I think if Mogga was pulling up trees like Adie Boothroyd or Stevei Coppell in a better quality league then he may be worth chucking in the hat but in all seriousness, lots of you on here are talking up the SPL like it's feckin La Liga. It's bog standard up there.. Nothing like what we expect week in week out. If Gordon Strachan can take Celtic to the title and take Coventry down and make a pigs ear of Southampton what does that tell you. It's a whole different ball game.

papa_smog Posted on 22/5 16:24
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

grantus
It would roar for the first half a game or so then return to everyone moaning about Mogga's big ears or whatever. The reason the Riverside is like a morgue is because the fans can't be bothered apart from Euro 1/4 and semi finals.

bandito Posted on 22/5 16:28
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

Grantus: I'd back any manager that was appointed. I'd sing his name and encourage cos thats the type of supporter I am. Doesnt necesserily mean I agree with the appointment. I'm encouraged tho that we have a chairman who has knowledge of the modern game.

Big_Shot Posted on 22/5 16:30
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

Bit of a sill question really to ask me as I've always been pro MFC so don't like to get on anyone's back so whoever is the manager will get my support. However that doesn't mean I'd be in favour of us giving someone the managers job because he was once our captain, likewise I'm not keen on most of the other candidates and have spoke out on here against quite a few of them. I think the Boro job is a cracking job and one that is worthy of someone better than managers who have has done an okay job at lesser clubs.

--- Post edited by Big_Shot on 22/5 16:32 ---

scoea Posted on 22/5 16:31
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

I think the that Mowbray as our next manager is being romanticised. OK he is a Boro legend and I would love him to be good enough to be our manager but the plain facts are that he isn't.

All this nonsense about him unifying the fans, getting some of the old spirit back and suddenly turning the Riverside crowd into a vocal, passionate throng is just pie in the sky.

At the moment he has done nothing. He doesn't even have the CV of McClaren who was untried and untested yet he is expected to come into MFC and create the spirit of 86 whilst playing champagne football and qualifying for Europe.

It simply doesn't work like that. He hasn't done it for long enough, he hasn't done it in a good enough league, he hasn't dealt with big players and he doesn't have a 'name' outside of Boro.

To suggest otherwise is romantic nonsense for me.

borodoosra Posted on 22/5 16:34
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

I'm struggling to decide who is the most condescending scoea or bandito. It must be the effect of being up McClaren's arse for so long.

grantus Posted on 22/5 16:36
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

Bandito, we're agreed on that one then. If only I could have a conversation with him instead, as its getting increasingly harder for me to find someone other than me who does know his stuff.

papa_smog, fair point, but things change mate, things change.

Big_shot, also, fair enough.

scoea "OK he is a Boro legend and I would love him to be good enough to be our manager but the plain facts are that he isn't"

What are the precise facts that indicate that he is not GOOD enough?

I say that there are none and that you are talking shyte my friend. It is simply your opinion, which in some cases is on the opposite side of the coin to being a fact.

--- Post edited by grantus on 22/5 16:38 ---

peako_from_the_boro Posted on 22/5 16:46
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

Big Shot.

He has achieved more than Davey Moyes did at Preston, i.e. he was actively involved in getting a team promoted out of the Championship in the the EPL.

Moyes has actually achieved a CL finish in the EPL. Everton, even by recent history have just as much desire to consistantly be a top 4 side, and he has got Everton above us 3 times in the last 4 years.

Sas - No one is talking about George Burley as he is almost a yesterdays man, and in football it seems that when you have failed once there is very rarely an opportunity for rehabilitation - Paul Jewell is the only one that comes to mind

Bandy - Regarding pulling up trees i.e. getting promoted - He's already done that. With regards to Strachan, what's to say that he wouldn't have been massively succesful at one of the big 4 in this country? A record at Celtic did not seem to stop a massive bandwagon for O'Neil did it?

sasboro Posted on 22/5 16:47
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

didnt moyes cut his teeth with a team in england?surely thats moggas next step

grantus Posted on 22/5 16:49
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

He did at Ipswich, he's been there and done it surely.

How many times do people say dont go back? Well, he was first team coach and was manager there too.

peako_from_the_boro Posted on 22/5 16:49
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

Scoea - Just how does Mowbrays CV fall short of McClarens prior to getting the Boro job?

I don't remember McClaren being the manager of a team that qualified for the Uefa Cup.

scoea Posted on 22/5 16:49
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

Grantus I respect your opinion but I think the sole reason he is being mentioned is because he is a former captain. He has done nothing from a management perspective. One good season in a sub-standard league does not qualify him for this job. Nor does the fact that he is former captain.

Big_Shot Posted on 22/5 16:49
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

I see, so being the coach of a club can now be compared to managers job then. Of course it can't be so he hasn't achieved more than Moyes has. But what about Ipswichs subsequent relegation and then them languishing near the foot of Division 1 the next season.

Big_Shot Posted on 22/5 16:51
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

Peako, by your logic, McClaren has won 2 PL titles as well as the CL prior to joining Boro.

--- Post edited by Big_Shot on 22/5 16:52 ---

peako_from_the_boro Posted on 22/5 16:52
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

Moyes was at Preston, but couldn't get them up.

So this is really down to an argument about a guy who couldn't get a team out of a division but ended up managing a team outperforming in the league 3 years out of 4 our most succesful ever manager VS a guy who was first team coach of a team that did get promoted and has managed a team into a Uefa Cup spot.

bandito Posted on 22/5 16:53
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

Did he actually get Ipswich promoted or was it George Burley?

grantus Posted on 22/5 16:55
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

Aren't we talking about experience though? He has been through that with Ipswich and has gained that experience. Considering he hasn't been involved with the top English clubs he has European expeience at all 3 of his last three clubs. Celtic, Ipswich and Hibs.

Of course being a Boro legend, a hero to many of us is part of it, in fact is THE driving force behind it. Nobody is saying to the contrary scoea, its that a lot of people think that his resume since Boro is worthy to qualify him with the Boro job.

Yes decisions like this must be made with the head, but football is a sport, its still ultimately played on the field and not in the boardroom exclusively.

Some say sentimentality, I say history.
Some say romance, I say passion.

Yes my heart wants Mowbray to manage Boro, but so does my head.

Its time to let the new breed of English managers take centre stage, starting with our very own Tony Mowbray.

Big_Shot Posted on 22/5 16:56
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

Peako, I have no idea what this is about now. You brought David Moyes into it by claiming Mowbray did a better job at Ipswich than Moyes did at Preston when he wasn't even the manager, George Burley was.

--- Post edited by Big_Shot on 22/5 16:56 ---

stevopotato Posted on 22/5 16:58
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

I think some people need to put things in perspective here. This is Middlesbrough FC we are talking about, sure the centre of our football universe but still small potato's as far as top european (including UK) managers are concerned. So what options are we left with? The heavily touted Terry Venables has been out the game years now, did well for us in 2000 but that was then, no real credentials for managing a PL club in 2006. MON, cant commit to the clubs demands due to his personal life. Curbishley, Dowie, Allardyce and all would be a sideways step at the very best.

Out of the commonly mentioned names this leaves Mowbray and Jewell.

Jewell has had a very good initial season with Wigan, but people seem to forget the cash he has spent (wisely), so he has had a bit of an advantage over other managers coming up from the championship. Not really proven in my opinion, but potentially a very good manager.

Mowbray, a current manager as opposed to the two previous successful boro manager candidates. I dont think its fair to denegrate his achievements north of the border, he has done well on a limited budget, his team plays decent football. I don't think he is ready for the boro job but to me he is as appealing as anyone else who has been mentioned and more so than most.

I dont think Mowbray will get the job this time round (thats if he even wants it!), but if he does ever come home i think he'll do an excellent job and a lot of people on this forum will be eating humble pie.

Some seem to have something against him personally, that disgusts me, such short memories, you can tell who the johnny come latelys are.

Lets not lose our grip on reality here or we'll end up like the Geordies, thinking we're something we aren't, turning our noses up at everything suggested. We've come a long way in the last twenty years but we're not in a position to start stamping our feet and demanding the creme of european football just yet.

We've got the best chairman in europe i'll bet, he knows his own mind has shown great judgement previously and will take the time to make the correct decision, so whatever appointment he makes let's get behind him and his new manager from the off.

Up the Boro!

stevopotato Posted on 22/5 16:59
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

And if I had to choose from all thats been mentioned then yes i'd choose mogga.

peako_from_the_boro Posted on 22/5 16:59
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

Yup he was there when they went down, thats why I got the bit in about rehabilitation earlier up the thread, plus you know full well the financial meltdown that killed Ipswich when they got relegated.

Those against Mogga keep altering the objection to him.

I am using his first team coach experiance to counter those that seem to settle for them thats pulling up trees, or say he doesn't have experiance of the championship which is a harder league than the SPL.

I am using his relative success in the SPL (less points gap between him and the league champs than us and Chelsea) to demonstrate that along with a team where he was the number 1 he qualified them for the Uefa cup.

scoea Posted on 22/5 17:02
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

In a sub-standard league though.

BTW - I must confess that I was dead against the appointment of McClaren. I was proven wrong and would be delighted if Mogga was appointed and I was proven wrong again.

bandito Posted on 22/5 17:02
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

"Some seem to have something against him personally, that disgusts me, such short memories, you can tell who the johnny come latelys are"

absolute shyte. Mowbray is a legend. We all know that. Some doubt his ability as a manager thats all.

peako_from_the_boro Posted on 22/5 17:05
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

Big Shot

I brought Moyes into it to demonstrate that a team with probably greater expectations of regular top 6 finishes than us took a chance on a well respected championship level coach (who couldn't get them up), And that this 'chance' lead to that team finishing above us 3 times in the last 4 years.

The comparison was to draw attention to the potential that Mogga has with a better CV.

janplanner Posted on 22/5 17:09
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

it's not doubting his ability as a manager, it's doubting his readiness for the job.

peako_from_the_boro Posted on 22/5 17:09
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

Scoea

But to qualify for Europe in the SPL(yeah I know about Gretna) you certainly have to be a least as good if not better than a top championship team, which appears to be the criteria for many on here arguing against Mogga.

Big_Shot Posted on 22/5 17:09
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

But what another side have done in the past is completely irrelevant in who we should appoint as our next manager. There's nothing to suggest that any other clubs should follow suit.

peako_from_the_boro Posted on 22/5 17:11
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

Jan

On what basis?

I've given the comparison to McClaren, and I've given the comparison to Moyes in terms of an appointment to take you forward.

How would Mogga not be ready on that basis?

peako_from_the_boro Posted on 22/5 17:15
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

Big Shot

So its irrelevant to ignore a CV that is at least the equal if not better than the man who has turned out to be our most succesful ever manager, and a guy who was appointed to another team from a similar background who on 3 occassions out of 4 has outperformed in the league the man who was our most succesful candidate.

janplanner Posted on 22/5 17:16
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

on the basis that being assistant manager in the championship, and manager in the spl at hibs, is inadequate experience for the new manager at mfc. imho.

i've been to see hibs, and i've watched a fair bit of spl football, and i don't think the challenges he has faced up here are great enough for him to manage, what will hopefully be a top 6ish side in the english premiership. again, that's just my opinion.

i hope that he will gain experience, and have the successes in his career that will qualify him for the boro job. i just don't believe he's there yet.

br14 Posted on 22/5 17:17
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

Given that our last two managers both had zero managerial experience before they came to Boro, the fact that Mowbray has at least proven himself in the Scottish Premier League has to be worth something.

Big_Shot Posted on 22/5 17:18
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

'So its irrelevant to ignore a CV that is at least the equal if not better than the man who has turned out to be our most succesful ever manager, '

Who are we talking about now?

janplanner Posted on 22/5 17:19
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

but he hasn't proven himself in the spl really, which is most likely the reason why he's decided to stay on.

stevopotato Posted on 22/5 17:20
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

it's not shyte bandito, some people's opposition to Mowbray while championing the cause of other less qualified candidates can only be rationalised as being a personal matter, he's "not big enough for this club at this stage" type nonsense. i'm not saying all anti mowbray campaigners base their argument on this just some notables. like it or not. who do you want by the way?

grantus Posted on 22/5 17:20
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

I'm all for us having ambitions and moving upwards and forwards. 100% for it.

I just dont happen to believe that there is a World Class manager out there who is 1) available and 2) Would come to Boro right now.

I also believe that Tony Mowbray would continue to take us in the right direction as he is the best young English manager around at the moment ready to take the step into the top flight.

Dont worry about attracting top level players though, there are a lot more players out there than managers and with the UEFA Cup final, our player pulling power will have increased dramatically. We don't need a big name manager, we need one that will be succesful.

This is to be continued.

sasboro Posted on 22/5 17:22
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

how has mogga really proved himself at hibs?they arnt exactly ahead of the chasing back that includes kilmarnock.

peako_from_the_boro Posted on 22/5 17:27
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

Keep Up Big Shot

Mogga's CV if he were to join the Boro is at least as good as the CV of McClaren prior to him joining the Boro

Miss Planner - You make you point well and no need to be humble about it. I've only seen Hibs play live once this season and they gubbed the Huns 3-0 at Ibrox playing really well. I just happen to think he is ready.

sasboro Posted on 22/5 17:35
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

if you look at hibernians results they have had some quite poor results aswell

peako_from_the_boro Posted on 22/5 17:38
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

Sas - Do you think Chelsea considered losing 3-0 to the Boro a 'poor result'

sasboro Posted on 22/5 17:43
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

no it was a fantastic result but chelsea are damn sight better team than some of the dross hibernian got beat by in SPL! for gods sake kilmarnock are only 1 point behind hibs! lets get their manager in aswell!

Big_Shot Posted on 22/5 18:01
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

But why does that matter. We all know we gave McClaren his first managerial job so by default Mowbrays is slightly more experienced, but is he CV actually as good. Lets not forget McClaren was the Man Utd and England first team coach at the time and was regarded as the best young coach in football and wanted to get into management. So we gave him a go, but he came with a very good pedigree. Mowbray got Hibs to the UEFA Cup by finishing 3rd in a pooe league and got thumped in the first round.

Futhermore, why should how much experience a previous manager had have any bearing on a future one.



--- Post edited by Big_Shot on 22/5 18:05 ---

20_Briggsy Posted on 22/5 18:12
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

Its no where near as boring as the 4 year plus anti-McClaren campaign!

If Sas doesnt think Mogga is the best man for the job so what? I actually agree with him.

20_Briggsy Posted on 22/5 18:13
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

peako_from_the_boro - Macs CV before he came to boro in much better than Moggas CV now.

peako_from_the_boro Posted on 22/5 19:35
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

For the I've not left work yet shift.....

SAS, your simplistic argument loses on two counts. Why would we want the Killie manager if Mogga managed a team that finished above them? Also using your logic then any manager of any EPL team that finished above us in the league this year would be an improvement on McClaren. Or do you think that is over simplistic?

Unless I've misunderstood and you really have a love that dare not speak its name or a bet on the Killie manager and are trying to double bluff.

Big Shot - Taking on McClaren as manager was still a hell of a gamble even with his CV at the time. He only had an outstanding reputation as a coach. Turned out alright though yeah?

I would suggest that Mogga has a pretty good CV as a coach (certainly fits the criteria of some on here of proving himself in the Championship), and arguably in terms of punching above his weight did pretty well at Ipswich 'till the relegation i.e. a promotion and Uefa qualification. To compare that to the likelihood of any first team coach at Manu not coming away without an outstanding CV is harsh - but true.

The advantage Mogga has over Mac is that he has now had two years as the manager, the high hiedjun, the big cheese, and has delivered for the Hibbees measured against their standards.

My reason to compare Mogga against McClaren is to provide a benchmark to support my claim that in appointing Mogga we would be recruiting at a level above that we did last time.

My reason to compare Mogga against Moyes is also to provide a benchmark to support my claim that in appointing Mogga we would be recruiting at a level above that of a direct competitor for places 4-6 in the league which has proved for them in league terms to be more succesful than our last appointment.

Briggsy - Moggas CV vs Macs CV, do my first two paragraphs responding to Big Shot answer your point, or at least make you rethink your certainty. Btw who would you have as manager, and if you mention O'Neil it invalidates your further participation in this conversation.

scoea Posted on 22/5 20:04
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

Peako, whilst I understand what you are saying I think that yours and several other posts are over complicating the issue.

It doesn't matter what we looked at the last time we appointed a manager because our club has now changed. I was against the appointment of McClaren because of his lack of experience - he was a massive risk.

Robbo wasn't a gamble at all because the club had nowhere to go but up with a big name in charge.

However, as a club we have now progressed and developed. We are no longer trying to get promotion, to stabilise ourselves in the top league or searching for European football. We are now much further ahead than that. Our fanbase is demanding. Gibson is demanding. We must now aim higher than we have in our previous appointments.

On top of that we want someone that can step in without the baggage of coaches and assistants but can oversee the current structure and continue our progression.

We therefore need a tried and tested top notch manager and not someone that has limited experience in a sub-standard league.

As a club we now need to move towards a top 6 finish and challenging for trophies. Previous appointments have had much lower standards to achieve e.g. mid-table stability. On that basis we can no longer afford to take a risk on someone like Mogga.

boropatch Posted on 22/5 20:09
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

Who are these tried and tested top-flight managers with a top six pedigree that are avaliable and willing to work with our existing staff?

Big_Shot Posted on 22/5 20:17
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

Just because our previous appointment turned out well doesn't mean we should again go for someone with no top flight managerial experience.

As a club we have moved on from where we were when McClaren was appointed and our aims are higher than they have ever been before. Our goals are now to become a top 6 club, challenge for trophies and european qualification, and who knows maybe even one day challenge for a CL place. We need to continue from where McClaren left off. Even so we all know that 14th place wasn't good enough last season and won't be next season so we need to get back on track immediately, which means a continuation of what McClaren was trying to achieve with by and large this squad of players, with the addition of a few good signings. Next season cannot be a transistional season.

Thats why I'm okay with the possible appointment of Venables as I feel he'll continue the unfinished job McClaren started with this pool of players and staff. I don't want to start over again like we did when McClaren first joined.

--- Post edited by Big_Shot on 22/5 20:19 ---

20_Briggsy Posted on 22/5 20:20
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

peako - I think McClaren's CV when he joined us is higher than Moggas CV is now. McClaren before he came to us had a very good reputation as coach, well spoken of by Jim Smith and Alex Ferguson. Then he came here and did a very good job as a manager, achieving landmarks that no manager in our history achieved. Do I think Mogga is the man to take us forward from here? No.

See link for my choice.

Link: the logical choice

manboobs69 Posted on 22/5 20:22
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

You only want to start again when things went pair shaped, like if the car engine blew up

peako_from_the_boro Posted on 22/5 20:24
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

Scoea

I don't think it is overcomplicating it.

I genuinely believe that if Moyes can go to Everton and get a top 4 slot, then Mogga, who I think is at a higher level than Moyes was when he was appointed, can certainly manage it.

In terms of fitting in, as far as I understand it, Mogga only went to Hibs with Mark Venus so I don't think he comes with an entourage, and would therefore have little issue with the staff waiting for him. In fact, with his commitment to developing youth players at Hibs, the idea of Parnaby and the youth acadamy would be a dream situation to walk into.

It also strikes me that if any of the current squad have any doubts about what kind of a man Mogga is then all they have to do is ask Cooper.

scoea Posted on 22/5 20:28
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

Again though you are putting great stock in his standing as a former Boro captain. My point is that Moyes was a risk that could easily have gone the other way. Equally, I'm not sure that Moyes has achieved as much as you think. One great season with some poor ones and no great progress in any cup.

We have taken risks with our last two managers, Mogga would be a risk too far for me.

peako_from_the_boro Posted on 22/5 20:36
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

Briggsy and Big Shot.

I'm sorry but Venables is not the way forward. Since Euro '96 he has had 6 months of relative success as a football team coach and that was when he was fighting the fires that Robson and Anderson had started.

Portsmouth - Disaster on the field and financially
Crystal Palace - Disaster on the field and financially. Mark Goldberg went bankrupt didn't he?
Leeds - Disaster
Australia - Lost at home to Iran???? No World Cup.

Bringing in anybody is effectively starting over again with this squad and this team of coaches.

I undertsand the notion of Venables coming in as some sort of mentor but is that not just a case of treading water?

Who would better understand the the vibe of a football club from the senior squad to the youth team? A manager who has been doing just that realtively succesfully for the last two years, or a guy who's being building leisure developments in Spain for the last couple of years and embarrassing himself of national TV last Wednesday night.

manboobs69 Posted on 22/5 20:37
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

southgate and possibly cooper have more to offer than mowbray. southgate as played andd captained at the highest level and cooper has a wealth of experience in the top flight and under various good managers.

scoea Posted on 22/5 20:40
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

Peako that is vastly underestimating Venables and also fails to take account of the problems that were always going to make those jobs impossible. It amazes me that you are prepared to dismiss Venables despite his achievements and yet champion Mowbray who has none whatsoever.

Big_Shot Posted on 22/5 20:46
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

I actually think people like Round and Harrison would know a hell of a lot more about the club than Mowbray does. Both of whom would hopefully still be employed in their current coaching capacities. Adding the club captain of the past 5 years to the equation means a lot of people on the coaching staff who already know and command the respect of all the players at all levels at the club and share the same goals for the club as the chairman and the fans.

For me they key is keeping all the current staff and us moulding those and senior pro's like Southgate and Cooper into potential future managers. The same sort of idea as the old Liverpool boot room.

peako_from_the_boro Posted on 22/5 20:49
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

Scoea

True enough on Moyes with regards to the cup, but on league positions he looked down on McClaren for 3 out of 4 seasons.

Any new appointment in any field is a risk to a lesser or greater degree, but is any football managerial appointment antything other than high risk? How many bright young things have crashed and burned - loads, but how many certs have also crashed and burned - loads as well including a couple of ex England managers that seems to be a number 1 recruitment criteria for many on here - Hoddle and Taylor, Keegan anywhere after Newcastle etc.

Mr Boobs

Southgate and Cooper - and on that basis Bobby Charlton and Booby Moore would have been world class managers instead of one season disasters.

20_Briggsy Posted on 22/5 20:52
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

I agree with both Big_Shot and Scoea.

Peako I think you are vastly underestimating El Tel despite his huge background in the game, but you would have Mogga? I'd have Harrison and Round over Mogga.

Quick question what do our players know about Mogga as a football manager? Apart from what he done at the Boro?

And is he the big name manager that Gibbo is looking for? And can he capture those big name signings?

--- Post edited by 20_Briggsy on 22/5 20:53 ---

scoea Posted on 22/5 20:56
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

Peako - I agree that any management appointment is a risk. However, it is possible to minimise the risk by appointing someone with experience and success in the past rather than someone with neither.

I also think that comparisons with the likes of Moyes and McClaren cloud the issue because both of those appointments were made when the respective clubs were relegation bound. We are not in that position and therefore have to aim our sights higher.

I happen to think Venables will be a fantastic appointment.

Most of us have seen his results first hand in relation to only two of his jobs - England and Boro. Both were absolute successes. OK we didn't win Euro 96 but it is the best tournament I remember England having (better than 1990 for me). At Boro we were in an absolute mess and he somehow turned it around for us.

So what else should we look at?

1. Players' comments

The people that work closest with him are the players. He is the choice of the Boro dressing room and he gets nothing but praise from all who have played under him. A huge positive for me.

2. Steve Gibson

Not only has Steve worked very closely with Venables and is therefore in a great position to judge his ability to do the job I have no doubt that he will research this appointment properly, take on the opinions of people within the game and do what is best for MFC. I trust him to get that decision right.

3. Venables CV

For all of those that argue his CV isn't impressive, I disagree. He did very well with QPR and Spurs, a great job with England and a fantastic job at Barcelona. I agree that he hasn't been as successful recently but I put that down to external factors at the likes of Palace and Leeds.

Overall, he has the necessary qualifications to manage, is very experienced and has the support of the dressing room - a recipe for success for me.

The criticism of his business affairs is something that we don't have enough knowledge of to comment on and which, in any event, is irrelevant to the question of whether he can do the job.

peako_from_the_boro Posted on 22/5 20:59
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

Scoea - Underestimating Venables! What in the last 10 years is there to overestimate? Whereas all Mogga has achieved as a coach and manager has been in the last 10 years.

Big Shot - The idea of Round or Harrison moving up appeals to me as well. As long as all the paper cups were removed from the building I think Harrison has performed miracles to overcome association with the Taylor England disaster. None of the stories going around have actually suggested this scenario so I've taken the view that if someone comes IN who would it be.

However I can't see how someone like Scoea would be happy with this as none of them has managerial experiance. I think if this was suggested he would be far happier with someone more experianced like Tony Mowbray for example.

peako_from_the_boro Posted on 22/5 21:10
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

Briggsy - Name one big name signing that Venables has been involved with in the last 10 years? And don't even think about saying Nemeth out loud.

Is Venables the big name signing Gibbo is looking for, maybe in the last century. Venables has joined the ranks of those with "of the past" added on to their name.

Mowbray is "of the now"

What would any conversation be if the squad were to talk about Venables, it would all be history.

Big_Shot Posted on 22/5 21:14
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

From various comments I've read it seems we are not wanting to lose the current coaching staff and are also wanting to add senior pro's to it, which I think would be a great idea. However I think the only way that would work would be to bring in a experienced manager who is well respected within the game, only really Venables falls into that category. Martin O'Neill also does but comes with his own staff.

My actual preferred choice as next manager would be Steve Round with Southgate as his assistant. Was never really going to be a serious option but I would have liked to see him given a try.

20_Briggsy Posted on 22/5 21:20
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

We both know that in the last ten years El Tel has had very little managerial roles. You seem to be concentrating your sole argument on this case? This doesnít discredit his football credentials one bit. But this argument isnít solely who's the best manager out of El Tel or Mogga, not that thereís an argument to be had because it would be silly to compare Mogga to El Tel just yet.

We should be concentrating on the type of person this club needs to move forward. Given the plans in store for our current coaching staff I donít believe a long term manager is the answer. We need a experienced manager to come in for 2/3 seasons. To raise the profile of the club, pass on his experience to southgate and the rest and give him time to take his coaching badges.

peako_from_the_boro Posted on 22/5 21:26
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

Scoea, you said

"I also think that comparisons with the likes of Moyes and McClaren cloud the issue because both of those appointments were made when the respective clubs were relegation bound",

The best period of Venables career in the last 10 years has been when he was with us in exactly that situation - How is that therefore progress.

Reality check - "England and Boro. Both were absolute successes. OK we didn't win Euro 96 but it is the best tournament I remember England having"

In Euro '96 we played all our games at Wembley and in five games only won two matches, the Jocks and the Dutch. We couldn't beat Spain without penalties and you know the rest. The Italia 90 campaign walks all over Euro 96.

"1. Players' comments - The people that work closest with him are the players. He is the choice of the Boro dressing room and he gets nothing but praise from all who have played under him. A huge positive for me"

Where has it said that.


"2. Steve Gibson

Not only has Steve worked very closely with Venables and is therefore in a great position to judge his ability to do the job I have no doubt that he will research this appointment properly, take on the opinions of people within the game and do what is best for MFC. I trust him to get that decision right."

I trust Gibbo to get this decision right as well, and he will plump for Mogga

"3. Venables CV"

Barcelona was 20 years ago, and he couldn't get his tem to beat Steau in a final. In the last 15 years Howard Wilkinson has been more succesful..

"I agree that he hasn't been as successful recently but I put that down to external factors at the likes of Palace and Leeds"

Why would external factors lead to such an amazing man manager that the players all love be bothered by off field issues.

"Overall, he has the necessary qualifications to manage, is very experienced and has the support of the dressing room - a recipe for success for me"

Qualifications to manage! A long time ago
Support of the dressing room! where has this come from?

"The criticism of his business affairs is something that we don't have enough knowledge of to comment on" and which

He was barred from being a director of any company by the DTI last century. Rule has probably expired by now.

peako_from_the_boro Posted on 22/5 21:35
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

Big Shot

I don't want to lose the current coaching staff, but I don't see why we could not grasp the opportunity to add Mogga to it.


Briggsy

In the last 10 years Venables has had a significant period of time in football manager or director of football positions

Portsmouth/Palace/Australia/Boro/Leeds, and with the exception of the firefighting job at the Boro they all ended in tears with no significant movement forwards at any of the others, and in two cases huge steps back.

Whats the point of going further back than 10 years? How relevent is winning the FA Cup 15 years ago to becoming a manager of an ambitious EPL club today?

If your looking for an experienced mentor to come in for a couple of years with more recent real football experiance and a far more succesful long term football management career how about this for a daft idea - Bobby Robson

Big_Shot Posted on 22/5 21:47
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

I don't see how that would be possible to be honest. Round and Harrison have been here for 5 years with Round currently assistant manager, and apparently is very ambitious so I think there's a chance that he might be unhappy about an inexperienced manager who has never managed in the top division in England getting made manager ahead of him. Afterall both of their knowledge of the entire playing staff and club are vastly superior to Mowbray's, or any other of the managers being mentioned. Same would probably go for Southgate.


--- Post edited by Big_Shot on 22/5 21:50 ---

scoea Posted on 22/5 22:50
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

Peako you have missed the points I was making by a distance. I'll respond fully tomorrow!

grantus Posted on 22/5 23:33
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

Think of it like this.

The Anfield bootroom. They cultivated the legendary backroom staff from within, they developed such a passion for Liverpool FC it still has resonance 20 years on.

Who knows what will happen with this group of coaches and young local talent, but pride and passion in the club is something that can help drive forward success from both the players and the backroom staff.

What is missing from the set up is a figurehead. What better a figurehead, a man who encapsulates Teesside resiliance, grit, determination and pride. Who can have our football club living and breathing for the Boro better than Tony Mowbray.

A local man made good, a man who understands the area, teh people the area that the young players have been raised in and the backroom staff ply their trade.

I think that is a huge thing that he brings to the table.

Round, Harrison, Parnaby, Cooper, Southgate to back up Mowbray.

Not bad if you ask me.

Gillandi Posted on 22/5 23:38
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

Willie Maddren understood the area too, that didn't make him a successful manager.

grantus Posted on 22/5 23:47
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

No shyt sherlock. Mowbray has proved himself at least an able manager already though, even you doubters must admit that, or are Scottish Managers of the Year generally absolute rubbish?

Can't you see I am simply stating something else that he brings, something that no other candidate does? Something on top of the experience, success, style of football, outlook on youth development, character, leadership qualities, integrety, etc.

If you cant see that, maybe you should get some kip and try again in the morning.

Gillandi Posted on 22/5 23:58
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

So Mowbray has the experience that Venables lacks?

Yeah okay.

Curious fellow.

Did you ever see Mowbray play btw?

He hasn't lived round here for 15 years, Venables has.







--- Post edited by Gillandi on 22/5 23:59 ---

Big_Shot Posted on 23/5 0:04
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

I see the Scottish manager of the year award is getting bigged up now.

grantus Posted on 23/5 0:06
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

When did I say he had more experience than Venables? Why try to put words into my mouth? And then the cheek to call me curious. Hehe.

I saw Mowbray play more times than I can remember.

Just because he doesn't live round Teesside anymore doesn't mean its not in his heart, that he doesn't come home, that he has lost touch.

As they say, you can take the man out of Yorkshire but you can;t take Yorkshire out of the man.

grantus Posted on 23/5 0:09
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

Oh, sorry, being Manager of the year is now considered to be a sign that you are a poor manager is it? Please forgive my stupidity.

Gillandi Posted on 23/5 0:10
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

Not the Spanish Manager Of The Year award though.


Mowbrays from Redcar anyway, call me insular but I think they're a bit strange from out that way, just like they're a bit strange in Stockton and Hartlepool. For me, if you weren't born in Boro, your a bit strange and might as well have been born in Dagenham when it comes to managing my football team...or wherever El Tel's manor is.

grantus Posted on 23/5 0:11
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

Doyle

He's from Saltburn actually.

--- Post edited by grantus on 23/5 0:12 ---

Big_Shot Posted on 23/5 0:12
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

Not really, it just no big deal when receiving it for finishing a distant third in a poor league.

--- Post edited by Big_Shot on 23/5 0:13 ---

grantus Posted on 23/5 0:22
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

He still won the damn thing.

Gillandi Posted on 23/5 0:24
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

"Can't you see I am simply stating something else that he brings, something that no other candidate does? Something on top of the experience,"


How did I put those words in your mouth? Venables is another candidate and as a twice FA Cup finalist, once FA Cup winner. once Spanish League winner, once Spanish cup winner, once European Championship semi-finalist he compares very favourably to Mowbray in experience. Thats not to mention the ITV detective series he wrote and board game he invented.

He compares very favourably in all the other half baked, vague, wishy washy, so called plus points of Tony Mowbrays candidature you mention.

You are about as convincing as the countries Home Office at the moment.


"As they say, you can take the man out of Yorkshire but you can;t take Yorkshire out of the man."

Thats the first time ive ever heard the county of Yorkshire used in this hackneyed old bollox of an expression...just about everywhere else but not Yorkshire.

Dont have any affinity with the place personally. It's just like Durham or Northumberland to me. Nearby but not here.







--- Post edited by Gillandi on 23/5 0:28 ---

Bukowski_MFC Posted on 23/5 0:31
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

"Mowbrays from Redcar anyway, call me insular but I think they're a bit strange from out that way, just like they're a bit strange in Stockton and Hartlepool. For me, if you weren't born in Boro, your a bit strange and might as well have been born in Dagenham when it comes to managing my football team"

You're EXTREMELY insular. Boro are a Teesside club, like it or not.

Although it has to be said, people from Hartlepool are rather odd.

--- Post edited by Bukowski_MFC on 23/5 0:32 ---

grantus Posted on 23/5 0:34
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

I said the statement prior to your quotation marks is what he brings that nobody else does. That is on top of experience, not exclusively experience, read again please.

Does he compare favourably in youth, hunger, current involovement in football, career on an upward curve?

I haven't been here all the way, been out this evening after work, The DaVinci Code, good movie, just popped on over supper. What's your excuse bozo?

By the way, I actually don't mind the Terry Venables option, I dont think I ever said I did. At least I didn't until he started voicing his doubts through the media again.

Terry Venables brings things to the table too, I just happen to think that on balance of both their positives and negatives, if I had to choose I'd go with Mowbray.

So you're from North of the river are you Gill? Never mind, its not your fault. Or are you trying to now tell me that Middlesbrough isn't Yorkshire, that it's Cleveland, or its Teesside only? If you are, then there's obviously no point talking to you any further this evening.

--- Post edited by grantus on 23/5 0:37 ---

Gillandi Posted on 23/5 0:48
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

Can't be bothered now, whatever, goodnight. Whoever we get won't be as good as you anyway...i'm sure you'll continue with your haughty but nice "What we SHOULD have done" hindsight post's after every defeat next season like you did last. I can't wait.

--- Post edited by Gillandi on 23/5 0:50 ---

grantus Posted on 23/5 9:44
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

"Whoever we get won't be as good as you anyway...i'm sure you'll continue with your haughty but nice "What we SHOULD have done" hindsight post's after every defeat next season like you did last. I can't wait."

Here, have your dummy back Gillandi, you must be gutted going all night without it. So rather than talk about the point in question, you'd rather have a sly dig at me personally. Well done, that's bloody good debating that is. Rather than change your mind, rather than agree, rather than even elaborate on your point, you'll rather make comments about me, you'd rather argue with things I didn't say, you'd rather argue for the sake of arguing. What a stand up guy you are.

I will continue to analyse Boro's performances, I will continue to talk about percieved mistakes and successes on the pitch, because just in case you forgot, this is a Middlesbrough FC message board, set up predominantly to talk about football.

I'm glad you cant wait, I shall enjoy educating you some more.

scoea Posted on 23/5 9:47
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

The problem I have grantus is that the only thing I can see that Mowbray has that Venables doesn't is a connection to the club's history. Even then you could argue that Venables has the more recent link because of his involvement in 2000.

Equally, I can see plenty of things that Venables has that Mowbray doesn't. I really can't see the justification in appointing Mowbray on the basis that he has an affinity for the club.

sasboro Posted on 23/5 9:51
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

it seems that venables might be involved with england and help out smac,wonder why mogga never got the call?

grantus Posted on 23/5 10:08
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

Sas, that comment of yours is what this thread was originally on about, its the same boring perspective that you've been spouting all week.

Why take a blinkered look at one area of the man? Venables has way more experience than Mowbray, you dont need to point that out to us Sas, we all know that.

The thing is, maybe that experience isn't the be all and end all either. Is it all about who has the most experience, who has been in the game longer?

Well to use Sas technique, why not offer the job to Bobby Robson?

Surely whats more important is who has adequate and relevent experience, not necasserily the most experience. This would only be one attribute of many in the selection process.

As I've posted on Gillandi's Venables thread, I would back Venables, but I have concerns surrounding commitment, focus, drive, ambition, period of time out of football and I'd like to know more about what happened in his roles since coaching at the Boro.

sasboro Posted on 23/5 10:12
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

"Sas, that comment of yours is what this thread was originally on about, its the same boring perspective that you've been spouting all week. "

errr..and what have you been doing on this thread?

boroboy75 Posted on 23/5 10:14
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

Actually, if you knew your background, you'd know that Mowbray was actually born in Middlesbrough.

grantus Posted on 23/5 10:21
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

I've been trying to give a complete perspective on the Merits of a Mowbray appointment. Not saying, oh Stachan won Scottish Manager of the year, why dont we offer him the job. Oh Mowbray's from Boro, why dont we offer Archie Stevens the job. Oh Mowbray was a centre half, why dont we offer Tony Adams the job. OH Mowbray used to play for boro, why dont we offer Gazza the job.

I'm building an argument for and attempting to deal with objections head on, which which are not things that you generally do on here.

boroboy, are you telling me that Mowbray isn't from Saltburn?

wilfym Posted on 23/5 11:43
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

Ive read some cracking arguments for and against on this thread and i think we do need some continuity to push the team forward next season but the question is with who in charge?Ive honestly come to the conclusion that if there isnt a big name manager out there who wants the job,we are going to have to gamble wether it is Jewell,dowie et al.For those against someone who hasnt proved themselves in the top flight........think back to Cloughie,i know its another era but took a team in a poor league on limited resources to promotion in hartlepool,then built a team at derby that won the league and bulit a team at forest that won league and european cup.Both them teams being unfashionable provincial teams like ourselves.Now im not saying mowbray is the next cloughie but who knows ...all the other candidates mentioned so far do not appeal to everyone so why not give Round/harrison a go and get them to groom southgate/cooper for the job and leave the job of attracting players to the club to the chairman whose reputation goes before him.

Derby_Red Posted on 23/5 12:26
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

Great thread, just to pick up on the "romanticisation" of the Mowbray fella. I'm an old f ck and like others remember him as club captain, indeed the sort of bloke you'd fly to the moon with.

But what about the newer fans? Do they even know who he is, REALLY? Do they care? Will his appointment swell the chest of EVERY Teessider in the ground, or just people like me, nervous in the back of my mind that although he wears an "I love Boro" sandwich board, that's not really as important as his managerial skills? And why should having an "affinity with the area" make any difference to the likes of Rochemback?

Nope, too many fond memories and romantic ideals for a select group of people to hang on to - personally his first f ck up and the fallout from those of us who weren't priveleged to witness his captaincy would tarnish them.

Sorry, I'm with Sas/Gillandi on this one.

scoea Posted on 23/5 12:40
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

Not only that, my biggest fear with his appointment would be what happened if it did go wrong.

At the moment he is part of a select group that can rightly claim to be Boro legends. I grew up with Mogga as captain and he will always be a legend here. However, I would hate that to be tarnished by fans turning on him like they did McClaren. Despite his status, if it went wrong he would be treat like any other manager.

grantus Posted on 23/5 12:46
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

I understand this, scoea, but what if it went right?

Surely we should not let fear of losing an icon determine who we appoint. It must be done without emotion as much as possible.

I know this soulds like I'm being hypocritical but I'm not. Yes my heart wants Mowbray as manager but for reasons justified by my mind.

Bringing some emotion into the crowd, the players, the animal that is the Boro is no bad thing.

Yes he may fail, but I would rather that than wondering what if, you know?

Providing he keeps his dignity, his integrety and his honour, I think in the long term, even if things went wrong, his place as a Boro legend is safe.

I just have a feeling things wouldn't go wrong though.

It is interesting how divided we are on Mowbray, Venables and anyone else for that matter.

If its not to be someone already mentioned, is there really an appointment that we can all agree upon lurking out there in the World of football?

scoea Posted on 23/5 12:53
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

That wouldn't be my reason for not appointing him though grantus, as you know.

I don't think there is any one candidate that would be universally thought of as the right choice. I just hope that when there is a new manager in place he gets support and is given a chance.

grantus Posted on 23/5 13:03
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

Would we be united behind any of these?

Otmar Hitzfeld
Gerard Houllier
"Big" Phil Scolari

Or are we destined to always disagree?

Both Hitzfeld and Scolari are available mind. Couldn't happen, could it? Wouldn't happen, would it? Stevie Gibson wouldn't be able to, would he?

grantus Posted on 23/5 15:53
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

If Venables did get offered the job, then I can't see a stella managerial appointment happening.

If not, then maybe, it could be a smokescreen while Gibson / Lamb talk to the A list of managers.

The more I think about it, the more I think a top, top man could come in. That I would be ecstatic about.

If not then give me Mowbray.

scoea Posted on 23/5 16:00
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

I would be delighted with the first two on your list but not Big Phil, for no other reason than he doesn't speak English.

grantus Posted on 13/8 18:02
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

I enjoyed this thread.


Ah, those were the days

slightlymad22 Posted on 13/8 18:10
re: Sasboro's anti Mowbray campaign

oh the talk of "the A List Manager" we were going to get

"A list as long of my arm of quality managers ALL wanting the job"