|Lisbonlegend Posted on 12/7 8:37|
Is for losers with mickey mouse hats and shoulder pads.
|Lisbonlegend Posted on 12/7 8:40|
and I forgot the leather shoes.
|TheBoy999 Posted on 12/7 8:47|
It ammaze's me that people are that stupid. "Lets go and watch a load of bulls get tortured, then killed", and the Spanish wonder why they are thought of as a backwater. They should be thrown out the EU till they ban it.
|blotonthelandscape Posted on 12/7 8:49|
Fantastic entertainment though, no different to seas fishing, do you want to ban that?
|TheBoy999 Posted on 12/7 8:53|
How can you relate something the size of a bull to a fish. Also when people catch sea fish they kill them then eat them, i have no problem with killing animals for food, i am a meat eater. I have a problem with people tortureing then killing animals for fun and the entertainment of dick-heads like yourself.
"Fantastic entertainment though"
Thats whats wrong with democracy, people like you are allowed to vote.
--- Post edited by TheBoy999 on 12/7 8:56 ---
|Lisbonlegend Posted on 12/7 8:55|
I think you've caught a live one there Blot.
|MsCurly Posted on 12/7 8:56|
There isn't a grain of me that can understand what anybody finds entertaining about it, blot.
Would you find it entertaining if somebody stuck your dog in an arena, goaded him and stabbed him?
|piggy_nichol Posted on 12/7 8:57|
Boy - The bulls are eaten, you can buy the steaks in the restaurants around the bullring.
Would you like me to send you a couple of testicles over?
--- Post edited by piggy_nichol on 12/7 8:57 ---
|blotonthelandscape Posted on 12/7 8:58|
The matadors and picadors wear lovely suits and shoes. Oh, and it is food, the most expensive you can buy in local restaurants.
|blotonthelandscape Posted on 12/7 9:00|
And this democracy your talking about, is this the democracy that says I can only vote for things that you agree with. Could you send me a list so I know whats right and wrong.
|MsCurly Posted on 12/7 9:02|
Doesn't matter that the meat is eaten, it's torture and animal cruelty.
It's disgusting, and shame on those that can't see beyond the theatre and ceremony of it for what it truly is.
|blotonthelandscape Posted on 12/7 9:04|
On a scale of 1 to 100 on things to worry about in this world, its about a 2.
|Lisbonlegend Posted on 12/7 9:04|
As high as that?
|TheBoy999 Posted on 12/7 9:06|
I know the bulls are eaten, but whats the point in tortureing it first. Its sick that people call it entertainment. If you want to eat meat kill the animal humanely. What a backward country Spain is, we banned Bull Baiting 200 years ago.
Blot i'd like a domocracy were people with less than 2 brain cells aren't allowed to vote.
|blotonthelandscape Posted on 12/7 9:08|
Double negative there, do a recheck.
|TheBoy999 Posted on 12/7 9:11|
Just a bit of fun.
|Link: Sick Spaniards|
|TheBoy999 Posted on 12/7 9:14|
"Double negative there, do a recheck."
So thats your argument, well thought out, you make some really interesting points.
|blotonthelandscape Posted on 12/7 9:14|
Lisbon, your right 2 in a 1000
|jax_1 Posted on 12/7 9:15|
It's disgusting and cruel, there is no excuse for it, it's just there to satisfy a blood lust.
I am looking forward to reading Piggys account of the Pamplona bull run but at least the bulls get chance for a bit of retribution there. Unlike in a bull ring where some of the bulls muscles are paralysed prior to going into the ring to further reduce the bulls chances of having a fair fight.
Boy 999 is right, the Spaniards should be excluded from as many things as possible until they stop this barbaric practice.
|littlejimmy Posted on 12/7 9:17|
And we've just "banned" fox hunting in this country. Oh, we're miles ahead of the Spanish savages.
|blotonthelandscape Posted on 12/7 9:19|
Nah, the Spanish are wonderful people, they put people before animals. There are some people over here who want to stop cancer research because it might hurt a rat, how stupid is that.
|piggy_nichol Posted on 12/7 9:19|
Boy - Its an easy subject to take the moral high ground on, but I tend to find that the sort of people who prefer animals to humans, you know, the type that hope the jockeys get injured in the grand national or in your case those who wish that the bullrunners get gored tend to be a little bit on the odd side.
So whilst I respect the opinion of anyone who condemns bullfighting, I tend to think that you more likely to be a bit of a pri ck.
|jax_1 Posted on 12/7 9:20|
Jimbo, I have always said that fox hunting should be banned, which did not go down very well in my house, I can tell you. I have never hunted on principal, though was invited to on many occasions. It is just as barbaric as bull fighting.
|littlejimmy Posted on 12/7 9:32|
I agree, jax. I'm just saying that we in this country don't really have a moral high horse to get on. Humankind should learn to love itself before it tries thinking about the other species on the planet.
|grantus Posted on 12/7 9:38|
Here we go again. The blooody dogooders are out. "We dont like it so you shouldn't be able to do it" voice of the big brothers. It's like listening to this disgrace of a government of ours.
What a load of complete rubbish. The Spanish love their bull fighting, so good luck to them.
The bulls live probably ten times better lives than the beef cattle in this country ever will. They are respected and reared with a lot of love and care. Can that be said of the leather on the shoes on your feet?
Does everyone on here only eat wild chicken that was at ease and happy to die for your dinner? or eggs that have been laid by "happy" chickens? Is your beef all happy beef, gladly given by the cow?
I'll bet none of you have even been to a bull fight.
I went to one in Madrid a couple of years ago. Not really my thing, but I found it very interesting.
Bullfighting? What do you know about bull fighting?
--- Post edited by grantus on 12/7 9:39 ---
|jax_1 Posted on 12/7 9:51|
Oooooo get her!
Grantus, you are right there is an awful lot of animal mistreatment here and that should be addressed. It is not however used as a public spectacle.
It doesn't matter how well an animal has been looked after prior to going into the ring, while it's in there, it's being tortured.
|TheBoy999 Posted on 12/7 9:51|
"What a load of complete rubbish. The Spanish love their bull fighting, so good luck to them."
The Klu Klux Klan love beating up negro's so good luck to them!
Your resoning is beyond belief, if someone enjoys something then its ok, "good luck to them".
The toffs of the British empire liked to torture the natives, chop thier nuts off and see how long it takes them to die, but they enjoyed it so "good luck to them".
piggy_nichol anyone who can enjoy seeing an animal being tortured has something wrong with. Its a well know fact that most psychopathic serial killers start off by tortureing and killing animals.
--- Post edited by TheBoy999 on 12/7 9:52 ---
|Lisbonlegend Posted on 12/7 9:52|
Far too easy that grantus.
|blotonthelandscape Posted on 12/7 9:53|
So I have jumped from being thick as pig shoite to a psychopathic serial killer in a short thread. Not a bad morning.
|piggy_nichol Posted on 12/7 9:56|
Yeah well, I never said I was perfect.
|Marlon_D Posted on 12/7 9:58|
What's wrong with goading a large lump of meat then sticking your thin spear in it.
Lisbon does that every Friday night with his "woman."
|grantus Posted on 12/7 10:00|
I'm just adopting my role here lisbon. I know how this plays out. I was just accepting the tag.
Like I said though. This comes from people who's experience of different ways of living, of different cultures can be found in the World Foods sections of Tesco.
Without at least a decent understanding of bullfighting, an individual is talking about something they know nothing about. So why is their opinion worth anything at all? There's more to bullfighting than "Oh, the poor bull" Please, get over it and go hug a tree.
It's the same old rubbish as fox hunting. People getting involved and affecting things they know nothing about. You think your opinions are doing good. They are not, not at all.
People taking a moral high ground without any understanding, any research, any clue.
Your mentality is akin to American foreign policy.
I say, Vive la difference.
--- Post edited by grantus on 12/7 10:02 ---
--- Post edited by grantus on 12/7 10:07 ---
|jax_1 Posted on 12/7 10:01|
Piggy, there is a certain irony about you referring to other people as odd!
|grantus Posted on 12/7 10:04|
By the way Lisbon, we were due one of these to blow the cobwebs out.
I make contributions to the RSPCA, the WWF and to Green Peace too. I'm no animal hater.
|boroboy75 Posted on 12/7 10:04|
Lisbon, you are a renowned advocate of bullshitting, though.
|TheBoy999 Posted on 12/7 10:06|
If somethings wrong its wrong. What can be right about totureing and killing an animal for fun? please enlighten me.
Whats there to know about Fox Hunting. Toffs chaseing 1 fox with 100 dogs and 50 horses to the point of exhaustion then letting the dogs rip it to bits, in the name of 'fun'. And don't give me the pest control sh-ite, i know the figures. You don't need 100 dogs and 50 horses for that, just one gun.
|grantus Posted on 12/7 10:08|
What's wrong is wrong? How wise.
What's wrong for one is not wrong for another.
|jax_1 Posted on 12/7 10:10|
Grantus, having been brought up in a household where huntin, shootin and fishin was the norm, I can assure you, I do have an understanding about fox hunting. It is barbaric and needless!
Only once have I ever agreed that a cull was needed and that was because an area of land had been infected with mixy, it was heartbreaking to see the rabbits suffering and the best thing was for them to be put out of their misery.
|piggy_nichol Posted on 12/7 10:11|
If you eat meat or wear animal products you are almost certainly contributing to the abuse of animals. Its just a question of the extent.
You might prefer it to go on out of sight to make you feel better about it, but thats the way it is.
Animals exist only because it suits our purposes.
|Marlon_D Posted on 12/7 10:11|
jax you cold hearted biatch, i bet you enjoyed Watership Down
|littlejimmy Posted on 12/7 10:12|
I have to agree with most of what grantus is saying here. While I find the idea of killing for pleasure abhorrent, I have never seen a fox-hunt or a bull-fight. My experience of dead animals is seeing chopped up bits of them in Tesco wrapping. If I was to see them being killed for my enjoyment (i.e. eating), I would probably become vegetarian.
In the past, when I've locked horns with grantus over fox-hunting, I was partially arguing for the hell of it, and partially arguing from my own narrow point of view, and the fact that I can't abide cruelty to fluffy animals. I also thought all fox hunters were chinless toffs. This illusion was shattered when I was talking to someone from a village near Thirsk, who was giving me some guidance on a completely different issue (counselling, then). The subject of fox-hunting came up and she told me that she enjoyed it. She was not a posh person. She was left-wing in her politics and had quite a hippy vibe to her, but she enjoyed going fox-hunting. The main reason she enjoyed it was the thrill of riding through the country on a totally random route (defined by their quarry). This threw me totally, because it destroyed many of my preconceptions. So, while I still think it's wrong in principal, I understand that there are people who think it's right, and they have their reasons for it, and these people, if not all people, can't just be conveniently placed into little categories that suit our view and arguments. There is no right and wrong. There is no black and white. Just shades of grey. Man.
|TheBoy999 Posted on 12/7 10:12|
Grantus as i said, please enlighten me then. Tell me what is not wrong with tortureing and killing for 'fun'.
|Marlon_D Posted on 12/7 10:15|
littlejimmy - pull them splinters out of your arse.
|TheBoy999 Posted on 12/7 10:16|
Jimmy if she enjoyed the thrill of riding through the country on a totally random route, then why not try drag hunting, the same as fox hunting just no killing of an animal at the end of it.
|piggy_nichol Posted on 12/7 10:17|
Its only a fookin fox, far more get ran over.
Should we ban cars?
|blotonthelandscape Posted on 12/7 10:17|
more foxes are killed on the road in a week than were ever kileld by hunts in a year.
|jax_1 Posted on 12/7 10:20|
The boy is right, drag hunting is the way forward.
The ones like her that enjoy it, are usually the last ones that get the near the fox at point of death.
@ Marlon, it was better than seeing them die a lingering death.
|littlejimmy Posted on 12/7 10:22|
This fence is very comfortable, and the view is excellent.
|TheBoy999 Posted on 12/7 10:22|
"more foxes are killed on the road in a week than were ever kileld by hunts in a year".
Exactly, thats why their argument of 'pest control' falls flat on its knees. I have no problem with animals dieing, i have a problem with people tortureing and killing them for 'fun'.
--- Post edited by TheBoy999 on 12/7 10:25 ---
|blotonthelandscape Posted on 12/7 10:23|
Your basing that on a statistic I just made up.
|jax_1 Posted on 12/7 10:23|
|TheBoy999 Posted on 12/7 10:26|
No i'm not, i'm basing it on the statistic that only %3 of fox's killed are killed by the hunt.
|grantus Posted on 12/7 10:36|
TheBoy999, I'm sorry but I've gone down this path so many times on here and you dont want to be educated, you just want to argue with me.
If you are interested I suggest you do some research into the bullfighting industry or the fox hunting industry yourself. Perhaps then you may gain an understanding, rather than an argument.
We'll talk about it then.
littlejimmy Well I never. More to it than meets the eye isn't there?
|littlejimmy Posted on 12/7 10:39|
Yeah, but you're still an arrogant t()sser.
I cried when I ran a bunny over once. And I never kill spiders or insects in the house. Apart from flies. And wasps. They deserve it.
|Lisbonlegend Posted on 12/7 10:44|
You cried when you ran a bunny over? You fat poof.
|littlejimmy Posted on 12/7 10:47|
It was a stuffed bugs bunny. I was 4.
|Lisbonlegend Posted on 12/7 10:47|
|ospreyheights Posted on 12/7 11:08|
be carefull what you ban, apparently some years ago greenpeace got the killing seals banned off canada, great eh nice furry little aninmal saved. the problem was some native americans had hunted these animals for thousands of years and depended on them for food etc they almost destroyed these people.
if we go down the route of banning everything we dont think is acceptable we are going to live in one hellish society.
|littlejimmy Posted on 12/7 11:10|
You're right. No-one smiles in Newcastle anymore after they banned smoking.
People go off on one about the Japanese hunting whales as well.
|Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 12/7 11:14|
On the subject of bad taste, cruelty and torture......it's karaoke night in the Merlin.
|Lisbonlegend Posted on 12/7 11:16|
It's better than karaoke night in the Billingham Arms that I endured last Saturday.
|TheMerryPloughboy Posted on 12/7 11:47|
Lets cut to the chase. People paticipate and watch cruel "sports" because they enjoy doing so. I and all my family ride with the local hunt. To ride a horse across the open coutryside is a fantastic thrill. The hunt we ride with, is a drag hunt. Plenty of fresh air and excercise. Plenty of craic. Plenty of drink.
Unfortunately fox hunting is still allowed here. Thank God not locally. I lose some stock to the fox. If I see him I shoot him.
|TheBoy999 Posted on 12/7 12:28|
Grantus i've heard all the lame arguments before and not one has convinced me that killing an animal in the name of 'fun' is justified. So go ahead and justify it, if not back out and accept your wrong.
|grantus Posted on 12/7 12:34|
I shall do neither, I've heard all of your "It's cruel, it's barbaric, it's a poor animal" views also, I've heard it all. I disagree vehemantly to it. You prove why the life of a bull bread for the fight is sacred and why the vermin fox should be spared the 1 in a million chance of being caught by some hounds and why fishing should be banned and deer hunting in Scotland should be banned and why cosmetics should be confiscated and eggs should all be free range.
Otherwise back down yourself and admit that you are a hypocrite and you dont even know anything about the hunt nor bull fighting.
It's not my job to educate you.
|coheadboro Posted on 12/7 12:37|
When I was about 6, we were in Portugal and went to see a bullfight where the Bull isn't killed (well at least in front of the crowd). The bull took out one of the blokes on a horse and it broke his back. At the time I was quite pleased but I'm not really sure. It's all barbaric and should be stopped.
I assume the bull would have to be killed after the fight because sticking giant spikes with flags on the end would cause a lot of injuries to the bull
|TheBoy999 Posted on 12/7 12:46|
"It's not my job to educate you."
No, please educate me as to how the killing of an animal is justified in the name of 'fun'.
I know you can't. Your argument seems to be "ah its only an animal" or "well people enjoy it"
So by your reckoning anything we do to animals is fair game. So if a couple of kids get a dog, kick it about, stab it, cut bits off it then kill it, its ok cos its just an animal and they're having 'fun'.
Its not so long ago that people thought the toture and killing of black people was acceptable.
|karrrina Posted on 12/7 12:52|
Bullfighting is a disgrace, its archaic and barbaric it serves no function but cruelty its sickening
|mufflar Posted on 12/7 12:53|
"Its not so long ago that people thought the toture and killing of black people was acceptable."
I can't remember this?
|Marlon_D Posted on 12/7 12:54|
I quite like it.
If the Spanish came over here telling us to stop some of our customs we'd tell them to fook off.
Leave them be, anyway their football team is worse than ours.
|TheBoy999 Posted on 12/7 12:56|
Typical facist responce, i suppose you deny the holocaust too.
|grantus Posted on 12/7 12:57|
Can you please tell me what those two little boys do for the preservation of the ecosystem, the natural habitat, or how they care for the species, or how they respect animals at all?
|TheBoy999 Posted on 12/7 12:58|
Marlon_D what customs are you thinking of, do any involve killing animals for fun?
|karrrina Posted on 12/7 12:58|
quite like it Marlon_D? wat lol u fruitcake! it scares me that people get joy out of needless suffering enjoy football enjoy music! enjoying cruelty hummmmmmm k?
|mufflar Posted on 12/7 13:00|
Karrinna "it scares me that people get joy out of needless suffering enjoy football "
you are aware this is a Boro chatroom?
|Marlon_D Posted on 12/7 13:00|
Am I not allowed to like something because the ALF on this board think it is wrong !!
FFS we live in a free society (allegedly)
|karrrina Posted on 12/7 13:03|
it scares me that people get joy out of needless suffering! - il clarify for you- enjoy football yes :) enjoying cruelty wtf? it was an example sorry if i worded it wrong
|mufflar Posted on 12/7 13:04|
sorry, that was a joke...
|karrrina Posted on 12/7 13:04|
Marlon D if you enjoy cruelty thats up to you wateva floats your boat?
|mufflar Posted on 12/7 13:04|
as in following Boro and needless suffering are inextricably linked..
|grantus Posted on 12/7 13:05|
You really should take care of your boat, the ocean is cruel enough.
|karrrina Posted on 12/7 13:05|
true true, even more shocking then why one would look for more painstaking activities lol
|MontagueLongfellow Posted on 12/7 13:07|
can someone explain "drag hunting"
I have a mental image of Lilly savage being chased across fields in Northallerton by a pack of hounds and horses
|karrrina Posted on 12/7 13:08|
lilly shouldnt of been trying to get in to the riverside stadium without a ticket
|Marlon_D Posted on 12/7 13:09|
karrrina, what I do or like, as long as it's legal has absolutely nothing, fook all, zip, to do with you.
I can't see why people spend so much time worrying about the welfare of animals, when their are far more important things to worry about.
Now get back to your Lentil soup.
|grantus Posted on 12/7 13:09|
Thats the one, a very popular urban sport these days.
It's really a replacement for the hunt, where something, a rag say that the hounds have been given the scent of, is dragged through the countryside by someone and they then chase the scent.
--- Post edited by grantus on 12/7 13:10 ---
|karrrina Posted on 12/7 13:10|
ive touched a raw nerve marlon d lol
|TheBoy999 Posted on 12/7 13:12|
Ha ha ha.! Here we go, the hunt is actually good for the fox.
So the hunt do preservation of the ecosystem, the natural habitat, care for the species and respect animals. Lets just say thats true, well done the hunt, great job. Now lets leave all that in place but change one thing, one tiny little thing. Instead of chasing a fox and killing it, get a man to leave a trail for the hounds to follow. Everybodys happy, the hunts happy because it can continue to ride over open country with wind in their hair. The hippys are happy because fox's aren't getting killed in the name of 'fun' anymore and the farmers are happy because they still get the benefits of having a local hunt. But wait a minute the hunt aren't happy, why? i hear you say, i'll tell you why, because they don't get what they want at the end of the hunt, seeing a animal ripped to bits. Sick bast-ards!
|karrrina Posted on 12/7 13:15|
eeeh i dunno why people have to crave cruelty is scary!
they should go to a beer garden, a football match, get a manicure, play cards something chilled and nice :)
|grantus Posted on 12/7 13:19|
Go eat your battery chicken for dinner and buy your lass some perfume duty free on the way back from your holiday.
Foxes are vermin, the individual well being of one fox means not one cent to me.
Are you so caring when it comes to a wasp in your house?
Ever been fishing?
I say you have jumped on a band wagon of something that has no impact on you or your life and really it shouldn't concern you. Problem is, you cant keep your nosey beak out of it can you?
I call you a hypocrite whose opinions are fulled by a government who would rather you think about things like this rather than us illegally going to war with Iraq. That's right, you read the tabloids and let them teach you your views.
|grantus Posted on 12/7 13:21|
Play cards? You've never played cards with my mates. You think seal clubbing is cruel, you've seen nothing.
|Marlon_D Posted on 12/7 13:21|
karrina, They must have wi-fi on your commune then.
|karrrina Posted on 12/7 13:25|
lol grantus i know i do get competitive when playing 21, Marlon D i didnt understand any of that id like to reply but im gonna be honest lol and take the risk of sounding like an idiot but wat were u saying?
|TheBoy999 Posted on 12/7 13:26|
Is that the best you can do "Foxes are vermin" you really have no argument do you. I to have no concern for the individual fox, my problem is people killing for 'fun'. As Ploughboy said "i lose some stock to the fox. If I see him I shoot him." I have no problem with that.
"That's right, you read the tabloids and let them teach you your views"
Thats what people try to do when they have no argument, pretend to be superior, "i'm more educated than you so i'm right even though i can't prove it" Typical born to rule attitude, i suppose you think i should just fall into line.
|grantus Posted on 12/7 13:33|
Ok fella, we have a fundamental difference of opinion on this one.
I was raised in the countryside, I've worked on a farm every Summer of my childhood. Although I've never been involved in the hunt, it is part of my local community. That is my history. Death of animals is something I've been around and is not something that bothers me at all.
I have a deep love for the countryside, for wildlife and nature in general, you may think this contrdicts my view of the hunt or the fight, but it works very well in harmony with it.
That you see any sort of hunting / bloodsport intrinsically cruel means that we cannot have a discussion about it as you will not listen to anything that has to be said in its favour.
Unless you are willing to actually look into it yourself and attempt to with an open mind, we cannot discuss this subject. It's pointless.
Where are you from may I ask?
|ewe_boy Posted on 12/7 13:36|
I think where possible we should treat animals with the kindness they deserve, I believe if the reason animals are put here are for food (no one knows if thats the case}then they should have a life free of cruelty and suffering. In other words treat them as you would want to be treated. You never know what you might come back as !
There is no excuse for fox hunting,bullfighting,battery farms or incarcerating animals.
Also the link between animal cruelty and baby/child cruelty is astonishing..THEY ARE ONE OF THE SAME.
People who take pleasure out of cruelty dont discriminate ...
|grantus Posted on 12/7 13:45|
People who take pleasure out of cruelty dont discriminate ...
Now there's an intelligent statement. Not that it applies at all to what we are talking about.
Go to the bull fight, there will be 20,000 people there.
Ask around the countryside communities and you will find that the hunt had a massive majority of support.
That statement sums up the blinkered ignorant view of people who aren't involved and dont actually know anything about it. Typical really, typical and disappointing.
Apply your rules and code to yourself. Not the rest of the world.
--- Post edited by grantus on 12/7 13:48 ---
|TheBoy999 Posted on 12/7 13:51|
I'm from Thornaby and have lived here all my life. I spent many a happy summer on my Aunties farm in Egton. My uncle bread Rabits, he necked them with a swift Karatie chop to the back of the neck and then we ate then for tea. They once had two lambs called 'Mint sauce' and 'Lamb chop' we ate them at new year when the whole family were there.
Killing for a reason i.e food, pest control is acceptable, its killing for fun that i find deplorable.
I don't buy this "you don't live in the country so you don't know what its all about" attitude. You don't have to live in China to know the killing of baby girls is wrong or live in India to know 'honour' killings are wrong.
|grantus Posted on 12/7 13:55|
I only asked you a question.
I agree with that sentiment, but the problem is that many people have the wrong opinion abou things, they assume they know everything even though they know nothing about it. This is one of those cases.
Anyway. Have a nice day.
|Marlon_D Posted on 12/7 13:57|
Howay lads you can't leave it at that.
|ewe_boy Posted on 12/7 14:00|
Spot on boy999 ! Grantus is looking for excuses all the time .
Oh and i wish peole would stop banging on about foxhunting because 'toffs' enjoy it..
There is nothing wrong with the upper classes ,middle classes..in fact they are the backbone of a proper and just society , but its the principle of the 'sport'..it would be just as abhorent if the guys from the local council estate were involved.
|grantus Posted on 12/7 14:07|
Spot on? Why did you grandad grow his own lamb? Couldn't he buy it from the butcher? Was he starving? It was fun, thats why, he enjoyed it. The hounds eat the fox, the bulls get eaten. No difference.
|ewe_boy Posted on 12/7 14:22|
I think, Grantus what boy999 is trying to say ,is its better to kill an animal in your own back yard ,knowing that its been well looked after ...i'd probably favour a stunning method mind ,but there is no blatant cruelty involved. OK you could take the point that he could have eaten a nutburger instead and spared the animal its life, but with bullfighting its the fact that people appear to get fun out of seeing the torture.
|MontagueLongfellow Posted on 12/7 14:23|
Thanks for the clarification grantus, me mind was working overtime
|grantus Posted on 12/7 14:26|
I'll bet that the lives that the prize fighting bulls of the fight live are of a vastly better standard than some runty lamb in his grandads back yard, fed left over dinner in an effort to plump it up for the family dinner.
If I had to be one or the other, I'd be the bull anytime.
You're welcome Monty.
--- Post edited by grantus on 12/7 14:26 ---
|ewe_boy Posted on 12/7 14:30|
I think i would too , i reckon lambs get picked on by the sheep :-[
|Gillandi Posted on 12/7 14:36|
Bit cowardly the way the Spanish fight bulls. I'd fancy keeping one at bay myself for 10 minutes with a Boro replica shirt. You just have to keep it at a good arms length and stab the beast when it's backs turned.
I wouldn't fancy climbing on the back of one like they do in Texas and then, after it's thrown you off, like it always does, lie prone on the ground for a minute or two and take a good hoofin' and hornin' and depend on your buddy's to try and distract it away from the task of rag-dolling your bloody carcuss all over the manor.
There's honour in that.
--- Post edited by Gillandi on 12/7 14:42 ---
|grantus Posted on 12/7 14:41|
The main things that I remember from the bull fight are the theatre of it all, the bravery of the bulls, the grace of the matadors and mainly the smell of blood in the air. It's not really my cup of tea, but was a very interesting spectacle.
One of the matadors got gored too. It goes both ways.
--- Post edited by grantus on 12/7 14:42 ---
|mufflar Posted on 12/7 14:44|
Boy999 - if you want a straight answer, the strength of an eco-system is defined by the diversirty of species within it. Therefore, controlling numbers of top tier predators, by whatever means, does contribute to this strength.
So fox hunting IS good for the environment.
Mink Hunting is especially good for the environment as the mink is not a native species...
|grantus Posted on 12/7 14:48|
mufflar, there's generally more to it than that, the hunt look after certain areas of land and do a lot of good work for the countryside, come on, you should know that there's more to it than the slight level of catches.
Anyway it doesn't really matter.
Thats my last comment on the subject for now, I'm off to get some sunshine for a few minutes.
|TheMerryPloughboy Posted on 12/7 14:51|
Grantus....I farm. I shoot. I fish. I ride.
I see death all the time BUT what gets right on my fe c k1ng T 1ts is the excuse that fox hunting is good for the environment. People hunt because they ENJOY it.
|grantus Posted on 12/7 14:58|
No, dont be daft. I'm not saying that. But I'm saying that there are benefits to the local community and the local ecosystem. Whether it be the local hunt, the grouse shooting, whatever.
Of course people enjoy it, they would bother doing it in their spare time if they didn't.
Sorry, had to answer that. That's it, Ive said my piece on this once again.
|TheBoy999 Posted on 12/7 15:32|
For starters my Uncle was given the lambs so it was a lot cheaper than going to the butchers and also, i didn't say i agreed with it, i was simply telling you about my country experience.
Muflar, chaseing 1 fox with 100 hounds and 50 horses is not a pratical way of pest control, as i said earlier only %3 of fox's killed are killed by hunts.
Grantus if the hunt is so important for the local community and the local ecosystem then whats wrong with drag hunting?
|onthemap Posted on 12/7 15:33|
The bulls wouldnt be alive at all if they were not suitable for the ring.
|mufflar Posted on 12/7 15:36|
I didnt say it was an effective form of pest control, I said it was good for the environment. and it is.
|blotonthelandscape Posted on 12/7 15:46|
drag hunting is to hunting as that ridiculous world cup ball is to football.
|TheBoy999 Posted on 12/7 15:52|
muflar - If fox huntings good for the enviroment then so is drag hunting, the only differance is that an animal isn't killed at the end of it.
You did imply it was good pest control.
"Therefore, controlling numbers of top tier predators, by whatever means, does contribute to this strength."
|mufflar Posted on 12/7 15:57|
If they kill one fox it contributes to environmental protection. I didnt say it was an/the most effective form of pest control..
This presumably also answers your drag hunting question?
|TheBoy999 Posted on 12/7 16:09|
No it doesn't. There is no value in fox hunting as a form of pest control, anyone who pretends there is is deluded.
|The_Commisar Posted on 12/7 16:09|
Why don't we tie half a pound of steak to Bliars arse and set him off in a field with 20 hounds after him ? Now a lot of people would pay to see that. Mind you, cruelty to dumb animals and all that.....
For the record I don't like fox hunting, at all. However it's give and take, if they want to contune fox hunting fine, the locals shouldn't whinge too much though when they get a nuclear power plant or a wind farm at the bottom of the drive.
--- Post edited by The_Commisar on 12/7 16:14 ---
|mufflar Posted on 12/7 16:17|
are you seriously saying you dont understand the point?
|TheBoy999 Posted on 12/7 16:20|
Are you seriously saying you have a point?
|Buggerlugs Posted on 12/7 16:21|
There used to be a crazy old bint who occupied this board but she once said something very profound.
"people who kill animals for fun lack compassion, and that is a very dangerous thing"
Then again, she ended up going out with the Fresh Ponce so you can probably disregard it.
|Lisbonlegend Posted on 12/7 16:31|
Can't believe this thread made a ton! Maybe my sausage rolls threads aren't controversial enough....
|grantus Posted on 12/7 16:38|
These subjects are always good for a quarrel lisbon. Always have been.
|Lisbonlegend Posted on 12/7 16:45|
Cool. I'm off home and then off to Devon tomorrow for the day. Never been as far as that before so I'll report back with my findings.
See you on Friday.
|mufflar Posted on 12/7 16:56|
999 - I have presented you with a series of facts. If they dont support your views dont winge at me - i merely answered a question..
|grantus Posted on 12/7 17:03|
So, in summary. Mufflar and I have won again.
Alrighht! High 5, mufflar.
|TheBoy999 Posted on 12/7 17:27|
"A series of facts" where? Where's your facts?
|TheBoy999 Posted on 12/7 17:53|
Seriously i would like to see some facts that support the killing of animals for 'fun'.
|jax_1 Posted on 12/7 18:23|
Grantus, you keep saying that no one has a clue because they don't know how the system works.
As I have already stated, I do! I grew up with it all, so I'll make a few more points.
Foxes are vermin - wrong! they are not, they have been given that tag as an excuse to hunt.
Foxes kill chickens - they may attack the odd one but by far the worst culprit for causing chicken deaths is the wonderful little hedgehog.
Foxes that are accused of being pests have to be hunted by hounds - false, if one does need? to be disposed of, it can be shot, with little or no distress caused.
You are quite right to mention battery hens. Though how you can excuse one for the other I don't know. Battery farming is cruel and again should be brought under stricter control. Free range eggs, still warm from the hen are just the bestest thing ever anyway. ( Yes I have been inside a battery unit btw )
Yes I eat meat, however, animals sent to slaughter are at least stunned before being killed. Though not in the case of halal meat, where the whole point is for the animal having to know that it's going to die. That should be outlawed here for starters. Same with veal.
There is categorically no excuse to hunt with hounds, dress your argument up all you like but as someone ( perhaps the only one on the board ) that has been entitled to wear hunting red, then I think I do have a bit of a scooby.
|TheBoy999 Posted on 12/7 18:28|
Well said Jax! I agree with everything you said.
So in summary TheBoy and Jax win!
|grantus Posted on 13/7 11:52|
jax, so you do have a clue, good. That doesn't mean that there is a right and wrong on this, its only a difference of opinion.
I couldn't care less about battery chicken farming either. Well apart from the meat and the eggs dont taste as nice, so I always buy free range. So long asa the farms are clean and the produce is safe to eat, then fine. I admit that battery farms are horrendous places, but then so are abattoirs and so are the january sales and Oxford street at Christmas time. I choose not to go there but at least I have been there and seen, unlike most of the hypocritical windbags who go on about these subjects.
My argument for fox hunting is that I dont believe the life of the fox to be very valuable. We will obviously disagree with this sentiment but, so long as the hunt act responsibly and give something back to the environment and local community, then I am 100% in favour of it, I feel that is sufficient value against the life of the occassional fox.
I think the same for grouse shooting and bull fighting.
I do not feel the same for children torturing animals.
The point of all these "sports" I agree that the word sport isn't necessarily correct, is not to torture the quarry, that I would be against.
Hedghog hunting, you think?
Have to admit, I was a little emotional at tarca the otter. Poor little sod
|ewe_boy Posted on 13/7 11:54|
Jax, how do hedgehogs manage to kill chickens ? just curious as ive never heard that one before ?
|mufflar Posted on 13/7 11:55|
and Watership Down when the rabbit went to heaven..
Bright Eyes, how can they burn so pale...
|TheBoy999 Posted on 13/7 12:03|
"The point of all these "sports" I agree that the word sport isn't necessarily correct, is not to torture the quarry, that I would be against."
So Grantus now we're getting somewere. You ARE against Bull fighting then, its just that before you where defending it. Have i changed your mind?
|grantus Posted on 13/7 12:14|
Will you stop going on about stuff you dont know anything about.
A clean quick kill is the aim of the bull fight. Not to let the creature linger, that is considered failure by the matador.
Go read a book.
|mufflar Posted on 13/7 12:20|
Ironically, "The Fox and the Hound" made me quite sad...
|onthemap Posted on 13/7 12:30|
Preliminary Phase: During the preliminary phase the footmen, peones or capeadores work the bull with large magenta and gold capes while carefully appraising its agility, intelligence, dangers, sight and, most importantly, its strength. It's very important for the matador to determine the animal's qualities such as whether it favours one horn or the other (eg hooks to the left) or swings its horns up at the end of each pass. Sometimes a bull is reluctant to fight in which case it will be tactfully withdrawn on the sign of a green handkerchief from the president.
First stage. This is when the picadores, mounted on padded and blindfolded horses provoke the bull to attack them. The aim is to plunge their lance into the bull's neck thus weakening its strong neck muscles. This causes it to lower its head without which the matador couldn't perform the coup de grace in the final part of the fight
Second stage. When the bull has been sufficiently weakened by the picadores, the next stage commences, during which barbed darts decorated with colourful ribbons are placed in the bull's neck. The banderillero, carrying a banderilla in each hand, runs towards the charging bull at an angle and places the banderillas in its neck. These are not supposed to weaken the bull but rather correct any tendency to hook, regulate the carriage of the head and slow it down.
Final stages. The final stage of a bullfight is called the suerte/tercio del muerte and ends with the death of the bull. It begins with the matador removing his hat, saluting the president and asking for permission to perform and kill the bull. He may dedicate the bull to somebody in the crown. Sometimes the matador will toss his hat over his head, if it lands upside down, it is supposed to be bad luck. The matador creates a series of passes with his red cape (of which there are 40), bringing the animal closer to his body. The two most basic passes include the right handed pass in which the sword is used to expand the cloth and the left handed 'natural'. After each pass the crowd usually shouts Olé!.
The kill. When the matador realises the bull is weak and unable to charge much longer he will reach for his killing sword and seek to manoeuvre it directly in front of him with its head down, so that he can administer the death stroke. The matador looks down the sword to sight the target, leans over the horns and attempts to insert it between the cervical vertebra and into the bull's heart
Finale. If the matador has performed well and made a quick, clean kill he will be applauded, do a lap of honour and be showered with flowers, hats, cushions and anything else to hand. The crowd demonstrates its approval of a fight by waving white handkerchiefs which are a signal to the president to award the matador a trophy, such as an ear or tail. If the bull has put up a good fight, its carcass will also receive a lap of honour and very occasionally if a bull is exceptionally brave or strong and the matador is unable to kill it, it may be spared and allowed to return to its stud farm to live out its life in peace.
Now we need a description of a bulls day in an abbatoir and we can
|TheBoy999 Posted on 13/7 13:24|
Thank you onthemap, conclusive proof that the bull is totured before it dies.
"A clean quick kill is the aim of the bull fight. Not to let the creature linger, that is considered failure by the matador."
Grantus where did you get that from. Will you stop going on about stuff you dont know anything about.
Go and read a book.