permalink for this thread : http://search.catflaporama.com/post/browse/531497301
TheBoy999 Posted on 4/8 19:58
Chav culture

Its just another way for the middle classes to deride and keep down the working classes. Its another form of prejudice and stereotyping. The same people fighting against racism would happily call someone a chav, just because they have less money.

red_rebel2 Posted on 4/8 20:24
re: Chav culture

There is no doubt there is a bourgoise moral panic over 'chavs' and that the label is used to demonise the working class as awhole.

But equally there is no doubt that there actually is a substntial layer now that have been cast adrift by society and who have responded by opting out of all social and moral obligations. If they have no stake in society why should they respect its norms?

They don't respect it. But by extention they don't respect other working class people or the environment and it is those almost exclusively that are the losers on the lawless estates that have been abandoned to their fate by the state and the police,

ive_lost_me_flag Posted on 4/8 20:27
re: Chav culture

I see meself as working class, so I dont see chavs as working class. Chavs are idiots (usually youths around about my age) who wear burberry and tuck their socks in and generally cause problems for everyone else.

TheBoy999 Posted on 4/8 20:53
re: Chav culture

Thats how you see chavs, the middle class see people like you and me as a chav.

There certainly is an underclass of anti-social people in this country created by Thatcherism. The middles class like it like that, it makes them feel superior and it also, to some extent, drags the rest of the working class in with them. As the majority of the anti-social behaviour is against the working class it doesn't really affect the middle class.

It means you have an under educated sub-class, keeping the 'ruling classes' in a position of power, stifling things like Trade Unions and keeping wages low. In a way its an echo of victorian times when the working class were seen as sub-human.

Hopefully Gorden Brown will be more radical than Blair(although i believe Blairs policys have made steps in the right direction) in bringing more socialist policys to bear.

red_rebel2 Posted on 4/8 20:58
re: Chav culture

Yes, and the existance of an underclass helps keep the working class in fear, stopping them stepping out of line and demanding too much money lest they lose their job and get cast into the pit.

The seething criminal lumpen proles and their criiminalit also justifies the state beefing up the police and tweaking legislation, both things that will be used against the people should they wise up and demand change in this corrupt and decadent system.

ive_lost_me_flag Posted on 4/8 20:59
re: Chav culture

Well put boy999, but wot chavs are is people who cause problems and are dead cockie, there are middle class people who are like that too.

YodaTheCoder Posted on 4/8 21:03
re: Chav culture

Who are in these "classes" you are talking about? We're living in the 21st century, not a fooking Dickens novel.

I'm working class (if you like).
No-one is opressing me or calling me a chav.
I'll freely call someone a chav, regardless of their social status, it's based on their behaviour.

TheBoy999 Posted on 4/8 21:07
re: Chav culture

Your fooling yourself if you think the class system's dead, its alive and kicking.

YodaTheCoder Posted on 4/8 21:08
re: Chav culture

Show me.

Boro_Lee88 Posted on 4/8 21:10
re: Chav culture

Thats utter BS, the whole working class isnt classed as 'chavs' just actual 'chavs'.

Fabio_The_Rock Posted on 4/8 21:15
re: Chav culture

There are 60million people in Britain, I think it is a bit too simplistic to label them 'working class' 'middle class' and 'upper class'. It's more a spectrum methinks.

Boro_Lee88 Posted on 4/8 21:16
re: Chav culture

"It's more a spectrum methinks"

Well said sir.

BillHicksBoro Posted on 4/8 21:20
re: Chav culture

How can they all be working class when so many of them don't work?

Juventus Posted on 4/8 21:25
re: Chav culture

They're not working class, that's the point. They're the underclass, and as so, conveniently for the middle classes (so the theory goes) occupy the working class and ensure the middle classes can earn more money and live their own lives. Hence why a term once apllied almost comically to those solely with Burberry caps etc, has been propagated by TV and newspapers into some sort of crisis.

I don't go along with most of this, but it's definitely been over-pedalled by the media and created something that is quite nasty and certainly not totally accurate. And it is also very convenient for the middles and uppers.

--- Post edited by Juventus on 4/8 21:27 ---

holgateoldskool Posted on 4/8 21:28
re: Chav culture

Boy999 what idealogical clap trap you spout. The class system is largely driven by the lower end of the socio -rating ie. the scum bags who think the world owes them a living. Working class - exactly what is that? I work but don't associate myself with the toe-rags who are a waste of space and look for someone to blame. The majority of them are interlactually challenged and wouldn't thank you for trying to improve their lot if it meant a meaningful contribution from themselves. Blame culture is alive and kicking !

YodaTheCoder Posted on 4/8 21:28
re: Chav culture

Who are the "middles" and "uppers" and when/where do they have their meetings to decide how the lives of all us peons are going to be run?

TheBoy999 Posted on 4/8 21:30
re: Chav culture

Yoda the shining beacon of the class system is private schools. If you have the cash your kids can be educated better, get better jobs, send their kids to private school and so the cycle goes.

Oxford and Cambridge perpetuate this too. Around half of the students in Oxford come from state school backgrounds; for comparison, approximately 93% of students in the UK study at state schools.

Boro_lee how many middle class people do you know, that you would say are chav? Its an invention/creation of the middle class and you've fell for it.

ive_lost_me_flag Posted on 4/8 21:33
re: Chav culture

So your telling me that Grangetown and Nunthorpe arent diffrent classes?

Of course they are, Grangetowns clearly working class and Nunthorpe is middle class borderline upper class.

Juventus Posted on 4/8 21:34
re: Chav culture

Borderline upper class??!

ive_lost_me_flag Posted on 4/8 21:35
re: Chav culture

Have you seen how posh Nunthorpe is??

SplendidStuff Posted on 4/8 21:35
re: Chav culture

Chavs are scum.

TheBoy999 Posted on 4/8 21:38
re: Chav culture

"The majority of them are interlactually challenged"

What do you mean like 99% of the nation where in the middle ages. I suppose that was their fault? Not the fact that the 'ruling classes' kept the masses down by under education and the imperialists dogma that the masses were inferior, and made to believe it.

TheBoy999 Posted on 4/8 21:39
re: Chav culture

SplendidStuff. Lol, how ironic!

Juventus Posted on 4/8 21:40
re: Chav culture

No, chavs are under-educated victims of the system.

Averageing an area into a particular class is inaccurate and rather pointless, but while we're on the subject Nunthorpe may be 'posh' but it probably would just scrape into upper middle class, coming nowhere near upper class. Upper class is far far more than 'poshness'.

SplendidStuff Posted on 4/8 21:40
re: Chav culture

You can be ass stupid and lazy as you like.

At least try and civil to other people thought eh, bloody asbo's.

ive_lost_me_flag Posted on 4/8 21:42
re: Chav culture

Anyone realize why they are unemployed. Some of them arent as intelligent and relied on simple and basic jobs to make ends meet, then ICI made thousands redundant - the result - everyone was screwed and was stuck on the dole. I feel sorry for em.

--- Post edited by ive_lost_me_flag on 4/8 21:42 ---

Link: Grangetown 1991

MontagueLongfellow Posted on 4/8 21:52
re: Chav culture

Flaggy, yer talking sh­ite.

Some people get on with it, others accept there lot, dont fall into the trap of stereotyping people

Juventus Posted on 4/8 21:54
re: Chav culture

I would like to take my little part in this conversation further but stockportboro's thread has my sole attention for the next 5 hours. I bid you farewell.

ive_lost_me_flag Posted on 4/8 21:56
re: Chav culture

Just becos were not as well off as the middle class why shud we be labelled chavs? Your a bunch of toffs.

--- Post edited by ive_lost_me_flag on 4/8 22:01 ---

Juventus Posted on 4/8 21:59
re: Chav culture

No one's calling 'us' 'Chavs'. If by 'us' you are referring to the working class. 'Chavs' are the underclass.

And how are the working classes not as good as the middle classes?

ive_lost_me_flag Posted on 4/8 22:01
re: Chav culture

By good I mean, not have as big houses and as much money. In fact Ill change the word.

Juventus Posted on 4/8 22:02
re: Chav culture

So who's calling 'us' chavs then?

SplendidStuff Posted on 4/8 22:03
re: Chav culture

the 'chav' who lives in the terraced flat below me is a twaat. He constantly plays shocking music with mc's on it at maximum volume at any time of the day from morning till night. Many times ive asked him to turn it down, but then the very next day its back as it was.

Twice since living near him has his flat been smashed up and a brick through our bedroom window for no apparent reason.

Every person who comes to his door is sozzled outta their mind and doesnt know how to knock on a door, they just shout his name until he answers !!

Nobody needs to live like that.

TheBoy999 Posted on 4/8 22:10
re: Chav culture

Your right so why does he live like that? Is he fundamentally different to us? Is he D.N.A different to us? Or has his upbringing and life experience been different?

Its a vicious circle but it has to be broken.

Linkin_Boro Posted on 4/8 22:12
re: Chav culture

A few interesting points have been made. My opinion, for what it is worth, is that the class system is boll---s. I was born and raised in a council estate, educated in state schools and now have a decent job I have worked hard to get. I respect anyone who tries to do well in anything and accept that sometimes no matter what we do, it doesn't always work out out. I have at times been unemployed and know what it means to be skint, Chav has nothing to do with a supposed class structure. Chavs can be working, unemployed, stupid, whatever, It is in fact a statement they want to make themselves. Me, I am just an aging punk that tries not to fit into the norms of society too much but at the same time shuns bling and all the crap that goes with chav without intending to offend. If someone wants to be associated with the chav culture fair enough. What do I care as ageing punks are probably even more rediculous.

Juventus Posted on 4/8 22:13
re: Chav culture

SplendidStuff, would you do things differently if you were in power?

If the answer is yes would that not mean there's a problem with the 'system' that needs sorting out?

SplendidStuff Posted on 4/8 22:13
re: Chav culture

He has no regard for other people and theres no reason a poor upbringing should make a person be like that.

I know lots of people who havent had the best opportunities but they still regard other people, especially neighbours with a bit of respect.

SplendidStuff Posted on 4/8 22:15
re: Chav culture

spot on linkin boro, ive was too also raised on a council estate in hemlington all my life until the age i was able to move, and at times was unemployed for longer than i would have liked.

But i think it made me into a person who understands certain social depressions and can honestly say that theres no excuse for anyone to become a 'chav'.

--- Post edited by SplendidStuff on 4/8 22:16 ---

karembeu_ca Posted on 4/8 22:16
re: Chav culture

that's right boy, and HE has to be the agent of that change.

are you saying there is NO work at all, NO way to better himself at all?

MontagueLongfellow Posted on 4/8 22:18
re: Chav culture

I like the cut of your jib linkin

Starting further down the track doesnt stop you overtaking people if you want to, you just have to work a bit harder.

fact is tho, the "lower classes" with the right attitude will over take some people who are born with a head start because they dont know what theyve got so therefore expect it on a plate and cant motivate themselves to maintain it

TheBoy999 Posted on 4/8 22:28
re: Chav culture

He's badly brought up, he's been scared, he's under educated. He see's nothing wrong with the way he lives because thats all he knows.

I watched tribe last week, the tribe he stayed with practised female circumcism. Its part of their culture and they believe that if the clitoris isn't removed, it will come out of the girls head in child birth and her family will die. Now thats an extreme example, but they accept and practice this because they don't know anything else, they are under educated. They are no less intelligent than you or i, but they see nothing wrong with it.

Linkin_Boro Posted on 4/8 22:29
re: Chav culture

I could'nt agree more Splendid stuff. Chav is a decision that is made. It has nothing to do with the person we become. If I thought I was a chav just because of my background I would have given up years ago.

Linkin_Boro Posted on 4/8 22:43
re: Chav culture

You are right MontagueLongfellow. I now manage people who are from a more 'priveliged' background than myself. I have done it through hard work and perceverance and a belief that no-one is better than me other than they can perform better than me at work. I now manage chav's and everyone else. I don't have a problem with chav's but, in general, their application to work is at times, and in certain cases, questionable. Aging punks on the other hand have to be seen to be productive as we get criticised for anything.

Revol_Tees Posted on 4/8 23:03
re: Chav culture

"Starting further down the track doesnt stop you overtaking people if you want to, you just have to work a bit harder."

The problem with that is that it's a zero-sum game. Under the present system, a gain by one person must be matched by a loss by another person. It's not a matter of simply overtaking people "if you want to" because our society is designed so that there are always very low-paid and insecure jobs that need filling. You could work hard all your life and get no further ahead at all because there's not enough room at the top (or in the middle) for everyone. That old slogan that "We're All Bourgeois Now" is just a myth.

It was Thatcherism's assault on society's poorest (who had nothing to gain and everything to lose by Thatcherism) that led to the creation of an underclass which feels it has no stake in society. That's her legacy. Affluence and social mobility for some working class people came at a great cost for others. For the people at the very bottom, wages, living standards and career prospects plumeted - no wonder so many young people grow up with no hope of achieving anything. If that's what she meant by Victorian values, she was successful.

--- Post edited by Revol_Tees on 4/8 23:06 ---

TheBoy999 Posted on 4/8 23:04
re: Chav culture

So how would catergorise a chav linkin? By the amount of gold he wears?

--- Post edited by TheBoy999 on 4/8 23:05 ---

longpig Posted on 4/8 23:17
re: Chav culture

what about people in the 26-60 bracket who have never worked in their lives, fathered/mothered various offspring, invented interesting and exotic diseases so as to claim more benefits, have a house paid for to live in, yet have never tucked their trousers in their socks or worn burberry or drunk bottles of lambrini in the park? where do they stand?

red_rebel2 Posted on 4/8 23:27
re: Chav culture

There has always been a violent and criminal underclass that terrified the propertied classes. Victorian cities were full of them, gin soaked prostitutes, pick-pockets and muggers. Although poor they were not working class, they preyed on the working class and the odd toff who happened to walk past the ghetto at dusk.

The rich are terrified of the 'chavs' because they represent a rabble of oiks who do not bow down to the system, are not scared of losing their jobs, who fight back against the police.

Anyone who thinks class has disappeared wants to peel theie eyes away from the 42 inch plasma screen blindfold that is distorting their view of the reality.

In Britain the gap between rich and poor is wider than for a century, the brakes have been slammed on social mobility, the education system and health service are two tier and on almost every recognised measure of social and welfare provision we are going backwards fast.

This is a nation with deep structural problems caught in the grip of a reactionary elite petrified that the people will wake from their drunked stupour and escape the celebBiGBrotherfootball bubble of dumbed down elective stupidity and start to demand more than crumbs.

But it is wider than that. You think capitalism isn't nasty anymore, that we are all part of some cuddly middle-class gym-going two car consensus? Look at the global picture. Our consumer goods paradise is only possibly because brutal third world dictatorships have coralled slave labour into bloody bondage chaine dto machine working for a pittance.

You think because you have a big telly, a house and go abroad for your holidays you are liberated from drudgery? Your compliance in the blood-soaked system of global explotation has been bought for a few trinkets. And you are still not free. You are one injury, divorce, missed mortgage payment or redundency beyond your control away from being thrown back into the morass.

SplendidStuff Posted on 4/8 23:29
re: Chav culture

like i said earlier long pig, you can be as lazy and workshy, producing multitudes of offspring. That doesnt make you a chav, in my eyes a chav is more a social nuisance who makes it their business to be as disruptive and unlikeable as possible.

Just what ive experienced from chavs in my time, and im not exactly a choir boy.

Juventus Posted on 4/8 23:29
re: Chav culture

...but I chose not to choose life........


damn, one post too late

--- Post edited by Juventus on 4/8 23:30 ---

stephendowning Posted on 5/8 0:38
re: Chav culture

You're right red_rebel2, capitalism doesn't work, let's choose communism, that worked great in Russia, no wait, well it works great in China, no wait, well it works great in Cuba, oh wait I misspoke again.

There will never be a totally fair system, power corrupts.

Gaz2605 Posted on 5/8 3:26
re: Chav culture

In the search for a balanced debate, lets not forget that the upper class aren't the absolute anti-christ. Granted, theres lots and lots of ignorant c**ks, born with a silver-spoon/shovel in their mouths, but there's plenty of hard-working, genuine people who've grafted their way up the 'ladder' and chose to live their lives in the comfort they deserve.

I grew up in West LA-ne and was just in the top half of the year at Secondary School in terms of exams, but stepped it up a gear in College and got onto an I.T. Honours degree at Teesside Uni. My grades weren't really up to standard, plus the interviewer put me on the spot and said "what would be your motivation to come in for lectures everyday if you dropped to the bottom of the class and started struggling?" I didn't have the time to knock up an 'answer i think they wanna hear' so said, honestly: "every morning i'll be walking to uni through the poorest postcode in the country, even today I passed three generations of (probably) the same family, drinking their lives away on their front doorstep. My dog has a better life." (Probably should have left out the Dog bit, even though its f***ing true!)

Not really the fairytale ending mind, as although I got accepted onto the course, I dropped out after two years and still owe them a fortune... but (going rapidly back to the point of the thread), there's still opportunities out there for people who really want them. More than ever.

You can't really blame someone for how they dress and (even sometimes) act, as a lot of young'uns have this culture rammed in their faces 24/7 from birth. You CAN blame them for growing up and purposely ignoring the fact that there's more out there - and being f***ing pests.

In conclusion (this sounds like Science homework), that culture boils down to two main things I believe:

1) Anger, Envy and Frustration: to live in the centre of town all your life and see strangers going about their day and (most probably) their prosperus career, sets off thoughts in a 'Chavs' mind of how their life would be if they 'had what the stranger has'.


2) 'Safety in Numbers' i.e, its a LOT easier to dress and act like the people around you (especially when in your teens) than to be original and therefore different... ... ...

... even more so when the people you're different to live round the corner and will kick your face in everyday for "a laugh"(!)



F**k me its late!

P.S, I was loving the (brackets) on that their post, was I not?!

PhillyMac Posted on 5/8 4:48
re: Chav culture

I'm glad no-one told me I was working class. I might have believed it and not tried.

I think the working class is an invention of...the working class. It's necessary to explain their lot in life and why it's okay that they don't try and change their behavior.

TheBoy999 Posted on 5/8 8:38
re: Chav culture

There are good and bad people in all walks of life. The problem is the bad people in the underclass become criminals and benefit cheats, the bad people in the middle class have a good education and have good opportunitys. Then they end up running a buisness, walking all over people and generally treating them like sh-it, but it the eyes of the world they are successful buisness men. Its only an accident of birth that they aren't seasoned criminals.


"I think the working class is an invention of...the working class. It's necessary to explain their lot in life and why it's okay that they don't try and change their behavior."

I'd like you to expand on this. What behaviour do you mean? Is it systematic of the entire working class? What lot in life do you mean?

The fact is some people(by accident of birth) are born to poor un educated parents in inner cities were the local school is garbage, the neighbourhood is poor and violent, and jobs are in demand. Some can fight and scrape thier way out of this pit, others don't have the personality traits and/or intelligents to do this and slip into the vicious cycle thier parents and granparents were in.


Its a problem for society as a hole and needs to be dealt with through investment in jobs, housing, local amenities, health care and most importanly education. But then again its easier to just to rant on about the single mothers, chavs and lazy workers.

--- Post edited by TheBoy999 on 5/8 8:40 ---

mcbrid Posted on 5/8 9:09
re: Chav culture

Society as a hole?
Un-intended wit I suspect.

Idiot statement of the year

'an underclass of anti-social people in this country created by Thatcherism'

Did your Dad tell you this?

I despair......

TheBoy999 Posted on 5/8 10:16
re: Chav culture

Typical middle class response. Call me an idiot, say you despair but offer no explanation. I suppose i should just believe what you tell me eh?

mozza_1 Posted on 5/8 10:25
re: Chav culture

i just call chavs asbo's now far easier!

MontagueLongfellow Posted on 5/8 11:37
re: Chav culture

RT

Are you saying its wrong of me to improve my standard of living because it will be at the cost of someone else ?

Surely people who are prepared to put the effort into the jobs and progress should reap the rewards.

I left school during Thatchers time from what on reflection was a pretty poor (I didnt realise at the time) background without an O Level to my name.

Ive never voted in my life, doesnt matter whos in power theyll never make a difference, Ive had several jobs and are now self employed and an employer all done off my own bat, self motivated because I knew that if I didnt do it no one would do it for me. I know people who are quite happy to exist on state handouts and they make me fookin sick to be quite honest, especially the ones who started off in a better position than me.

Blame Thatcher, blame politicians, blame society all you want, I blame individuals.

Revol_Tees Posted on 5/8 11:55
re: Chav culture

"Are you saying its wrong of me to improve my standard of living because it will be at the cost of someone else ?"

Nope. I'm merely pointing out that it's a zero sum game and you're wrong to make it sound so universally easy. You might be one of Thatcherism's success stories, but not everyone who worked as hard as you will have been so lucky. For a lot of equally hard working people, things got worse.

TheBoy999 Posted on 5/8 12:00
re: Chav culture

Why are they 'quite happy to exist on state handouts'? Are they different in some? are they sub-human?

There are reasons why people are like this. Because the fact is if they were born into a different life, they could be rich and 'succesful'. If you don't beleive this and believe they are fundamentally different then your suscribing to Nazi theory and the solution is to exterminate them.

red_rebel2 Posted on 5/8 12:04
re: Chav culture

Capitalism fills its advertising brochures with stories of self made millionaires who have worked their butt off from rags to riches. The sales pitch is "it could be you". But the odds on your number coming up are longer than the lottery. The game is rigged.

--- Post edited by red_rebel2 on 5/8 12:12 ---

jeff_potato Posted on 5/8 12:11
re: Chav culture

Not all chavs are from the lower echelon(s) of society.

Ergo the opening point of this thread can be perceived as baseless. Thread closed.

Trotsky4u Posted on 5/8 12:19
re: Chav culture

one view on class:-

Link: Class

sasboro Posted on 5/8 12:22
re: Chav culture

are chavs the kids who are desperate to leave school and dont give a sh it about getting any qualifications or cant be bothered to push themselves at school. If they put effort in at school then that might improve their chances of getting themselves job and stuff.

green_beret20 Posted on 5/8 12:34
re: Chav culture

Since when has poverty or living on a low wage suddenly become a valid excuse to blight other peoples lives or have zero self respect? None of them would know a hard life if it kicked them in the balls.

None of these chavs I see seem to be that hard pressed. They still seem to have the abiltiy to purcahse drugs, buy in Sky TV, buy nice trainers, get tanked out of their head with booze and have the comfort of having a roof over their head every night.

They also have the capability to find 'cash in hand' jobs when it suits them. To a point Rebel as touched on it, I actually believe they have too much and seem to think they are entitled to more, that th ewolrd owes them.

TheBoy999 Posted on 5/8 12:35
re: Chav culture

But why are they like that sas?

TheBoy999 Posted on 5/8 12:40
re: Chav culture

Whats the solution beret? Are they all fundamentally lazy? Is laziness an inherited trate of the under class? Or is it a learned behaviour? And if it is how do we brake the circle?

Certainly not by labelling them and pushing them in to a sub culture.

sasboro Posted on 5/8 12:48
re: Chav culture

TheBoy999, probably the way their parents bring them up

MontagueLongfellow Posted on 5/8 12:50
re: Chav culture

RT

Im not one of Thatcherisms success stories, Ive done alright for meself and are self sufficient and its funny but the harder I work the luckier I get.

999

I know 2 people whove never (hardly) worked in over 20 years, one from a council estate one from an affluent suberb, neither intrested in working just settled for what they get for nowt (the type of people that inspired my "The Unemployed thread") same peas different pods.

Ive gone off track a bit here, I associate the term "chav" with scrotes that can be a nuisance for varying reasons, probably not that different from me in my formative years

Link: The Unemployed

green_beret20 Posted on 5/8 13:00
re: Chav culture

What are things that bad that we have to start teaching the necessities and instincts of life again?

Although I hate the way the Government uses foreign workers as ruthlessly as you average corporate board it makes me laugh that somehow, a fare few million Chinese people living in utter squalor (a true hard life) are still willing to work for about a tenth of what your average chav expects.
If they were really that desperate they wouldn’t find time to blight our lives and trash our town centres, they'd be too busy finding a job.

jeff_potato Posted on 5/8 13:01
re: Chav culture

TheBoy, the vast majority of this chav 'problem' is predominantly the sheep who follow, permitted to do so by parents more than willing to buy iPods, computers and and trainers, but not particularly interested in how their kids really are, not that bothered about nurturing someone who really has a chance to contribute to society.

The actual chavs themselves - yes, the perceived majority are seen hanging around on council states, but there's a great deal of hoodlums and trouble makers who leave their 4 bedroomed detached houses, past the two cars on the drive, prior to meeting their mates for a hard shift of hanging about and being muppets. It's not strictly a class thing, it's an ethic.

I see a lot of them near where I live in Newcastle, in the advanced stages of the 12-20 year old ones down on Teesside - Byker has a generation who are selectively economically inactive, government studies from the DWP have proven that young parents, usually single, do either begin or continue cycles of poor commitment to education, poor health, high unemployment and high worklessness amongst households.

As some older folk might say, the problem begins when children are allowed to keep children. They haven't completed their own nurturing before being forced by nature to protect new life. Personally I'd say that's a problem that's being around for a long time, but the continued boom in child pregnancies, coupled with a shift in popular culture and overly liberal school standards have exacerbated a problem foreseen by... dammit, they were right, *Conservative* MPs in the 60s and 70s.

MontagueLongfellow Posted on 5/8 13:02
re: Chav culture

They should get on their bikes (or someone elses) the moaning minnies and find work.


(I cant stress enough that the above is a joke)

jeff_potato Posted on 5/8 13:11
re: Chav culture

Joke or not, Montague, it's a policy that worked very well for many of our forefathers. They didn't demand that life and luxury be spoonfed to them purely because... well, because they were there.

MontagueLongfellow Posted on 5/8 13:18
re: Chav culture

I spent 3 years solid working out of the area (home at weekends) as thats where my job took me, I could of whinged about it but saw it as an opportunity to experience something different.

As it was I got made redundant and sat on me ar­se for 6 months recouping some of my NIC and mortgage insurance.

Still things picked up again.

sasboro Posted on 5/8 13:29
re: Chav culture

part of life is you have to move to where the work is, within reason of course.

My first job was a temp job in york, i just upsticks and moved there as i was signing on for 6 months and just wanted to get out of the routine and my next job was helped by my temp job...then that job allows me to get my next job and so on. what thesepeople dont realise is that the first job gets one foot on the ladder and gives you some evidence that you are a good worker and will encourage more people to employ you.

--- Post edited by sasboro on 5/8 13:29 ---

MontagueLongfellow Posted on 5/8 13:31
re: Chav culture

Were you brought up in the slums or suberbia SAS ?

sasboro Posted on 5/8 13:40
re: Chav culture

wasnt brought up on a council estate if thats what you meant, although my mother was.(my mums mum has never worked) But we went through times of very little money spare as a kid. both my parents worked. they gave me loads hassle to get a job when i was signing on for 6 months. And i've got where i am now off my own back. and just taking opportunities that came along rather than sitting on my arse and complaining. i realised i had to leave the area to further myself and a job wasnt going fall through the leter box on its own. a lot must be donw to parental upbringing. my parents always said there is no excuse to be unemployed

MontagueLongfellow Posted on 5/8 13:43
re: Chav culture

Cheers

Wasnt being funny btw, just intrested you were another example that bursts the myth of the poor stupid folk who cant help themselves being exploited by The Man.

sasboro Posted on 5/8 13:48
re: Chav culture

plus my parents always took an interest in my school work, so there was always pressure from my parents to do my best at school. i hated it at the time but looking back now its for the right reasons...

its all a big cycle with the chavs and the lay abouts, how do you breeak the cycle if the parents are crap too?


BTW, there are plenty of self employed builders,electrician, plumpers..etc who started off at the bottom and now have a nice life style...is it partly a self motivation issue?

--- Post edited by sasboro on 5/8 13:50 ---

MontagueLongfellow Posted on 5/8 13:59
re: Chav culture

It is very much a self motivation issue.

I owe nobody nowt

(well apart from the bank manager )

GtBB Posted on 5/8 15:07
re: Chav culture

Not interested in chav culture, which can be summed up as ignorance and bad taste, but the notion of class is another matter. I spent the first eighteen years of life either on army bases or little military enclaves in civilian suburbs. Nowhere in this country is the British class system more rigidly adhered to than in HM's Forces. Though my soldier dad came from basically decent working class stock (South Banker) that didn't deter him from voting Tory or claiming Enoch Powell as his favourite politician, quite openly racist, in fact. My mum, also from South Bank, was a cleaner on the few occasions she had to work. Thus, I'm under no illusions as to what class I belong to. If I were to ever forget, this one abiding memory always gives me back my feet of clay. We were living in a slightly leafy place in Cheshire in my early teens, posher than your Marton and Nunthorpe anyway, and all my school mates had lawyers and stockbroker types for parents. One particular lad struck up an innocent conversation one afternoon, completely out of the blue. He had asked his dad the previous evening why it was that me and my brother and sisters always seemed to have money to spend and he had not. In reply, his dad told him quite openly that our kind wasted our money away whilst his had obligations such as mortgages and insurance and investments etc. I kid you not. Through his own ambitions or desires for betterment his father had become ensnared in all of the Capitalist traps that lie in wait for the unwary chap and there he was, openly admitting his envy of our more simple and fun seeking existence. Though too young and daft to fully understand the ramifications of my mates innocent admission that day the memory has never left me and I knew innately that something important and profound had taken place between two school pals that day. Still makes me chuckle, in fact.

red_rebel2 Posted on 5/8 15:17
re: Chav culture

Interesting observation beer belly.

GtBB Posted on 5/8 15:30
re: Chav culture

Actually, on reading that back, I've given an unfair one dimensional rendering of my dad which needs correcting. He was an avid reader, a fairly useful right-back and could play six musical instruments. See how easy it is to pigeonhole people?

TheBoy999 Posted on 5/8 16:03
re: Chav culture

So what do you suggest Beret, a scrapping of the benefits system so if they don't work they don't eat ie. China. That would suit the middle class down to the ground, lower taxes, lower wages, less union power, reversal of working rights, fooking hell we'll have 'advanced' to victorian times in no time.

TheBoy999 Posted on 5/8 16:23
re: Chav culture

Jeff how would you deal with teenage pregnacys?

Just a point of note, Britain has one of the worst records in Europe for teaching kids sexual education, yet has one of the highest teenage pregnacy rates. The Dutch on the other hand, teach thier kids sex education from a young age and have one of the lowest teenage pregnacy rates in Europe.

"overly liberal school standards" ???????? Do you mean Thatchers lack of investment and the subsequent decline in teaching standards? Or do you just mean the banning of the cane?

--- Post edited by TheBoy999 on 5/8 17:07 ---

ToneLoc Posted on 5/8 16:24
re: Chav culture

I'm middle class. Its nice.

Rain_Wooney Posted on 5/8 17:29
re: Chav culture

The term chav is a term of aesthetic abuse that has no real meaning. Is their really a "bourgeois moral panic" over chavs? I'm pretty bourgeois, judging by the definitions of others as luminary as Karl Marx, but I feel no enormous anitpathy towards people we might call 'chavvy'. What is the etymology of the word, anyway? I heard a lad with a reebok baseball cap, bare chest and tracksuit bottoms brand one of his female friends a chav the other day. Reading some other posts in this thread, I can see that the chav label is applicable to both. The girl who was called a chav laughed husterically by the way. She would probably also find Harry Enfield's skit of chav culture from about 7 years ago similarly amusing.

Somebody who acts illegally isn't a chav in my eyes. I I have to attach a label to that person,it would be 'criminal'. That term transcends any notion of class.

I didn't understand the post which claimed the Dutch actually benefited from opening the eyes of their children to sexuality at an early age. This is a nation that is famed for exporting pornographic images of teenagers to other areas of the world. The Dutch may boast a lower number of teenage pregnancies, but I would hardly call their society a paragon of virtue.

The concept of class is divisive and always will be. If we claim to be able to undertand the reasons that a particular person leads their life, you imply that people can be educated out of thier lifestyle.

Boy999, you seem to be quite hostile towards the middle classes in a way that the bourgoeis Populists were towards the 'ruling; classes of Tsarist Russia. Unfortunately, the Russian working classes and 'under-class' thought they were a bunch of knobheads from priviliged backgrounds and weren't interested in their sociological babble.

It's always amusing when people say 'my dad/grandad/ was working class', suggesting that a scholarship at the school of hard-knocks was character-building and made him a pillar of strength against the immoral, capitalist moneygrabbers who opressed him. You very rarely hear people say 'my dad was actually really rich and was the boss of his company'. There's nothing wring with being middle class, or upper class for that matter. Ranting on about the oppression of the workers as if they are some sort of bengin tooteless simpletons who know all about 'values' but nuffink about maffs and skool is just a further example of the pitfalls of stereotyping and makes some people on this board sound like Citizen Smith.

ToneLoc Posted on 5/8 17:32
re: Chav culture

Bravo Rain.

--- Post edited by ToneLoc on 5/8 17:33 ---

TheBoy999 Posted on 5/8 17:45
re: Chav culture

It was the early socialists 'Ranting on about the oppression of the workers' that gave us unions and workers rights. Without those we'd still be working in unsafe conditions, 70 hours a week for a pittance. God forbid we ever actually got a fair society.

jason040270 Posted on 5/8 18:13
re: Chav culture

Is it not true that unions are the reason why industry in this country is dead, they choked this country for years and brought it to it’s knees. They ruined this country’s industry that is why the banks of the Tees, Tyne and Weir stand silent. That is why we have no coal industry, that is why foreign companies. Are able to come here take massive grants run a factory for five years then move the whole thing over to eastern Europe.

Take Arthur Scargill for instance he started the miners strike with a big Union and a little house, he finished it with a little union and a big house.

Socialism stinks, the only people that benefit from it are the ones at the top. Look at Blair, Brown and Prescott they are lining their pockets at everyone’s expense and laughing at us all.

Chavs are a phenomenon that really cannot be explained, what are they? Who are they?

They are not working class, they think Manual Labour is a Spanish waiter

TheBoy999 Posted on 5/8 18:59
re: Chav culture

"That is why we have no coal industry"

Ha ha, classic, the coal industry was destroyed because of the unions! abousolute classic. The coal industry was destroyed because thatcher wouldn't invest in it. While other countrys like Germany were funding thier coal indusry to keep it going and preserve precious jobs(an industry that still provides jobs, and is now profitable) Thatcher as usual put profit over people.

The Tories later admitted that it cost nearly £6bn to win the dispute. In the ten years following the end of the strike, the continued war against the miners cost a further £26bn in redundancy and benefit payments, keeping pits mothballed and lost revenue from coal. How profitable.

jason040270 Posted on 5/8 19:08
re: Chav culture

The miners where there own worse enemy. Scargill convinced them to strike. When there time would have been better-spent earning money and planning for a future without coal.

They caused the premature end to the coal industry. By the time the dispute had ended they had lost all public sympathy.

The Coal miners, the car workers all had big ideas about fighting the system. What good did it do them?

It did them no good whatsoever they and the industries they worked in are now gone.

jason040270 Posted on 5/8 19:10
re: Chav culture

“The coal industry was destroyed because Thatcher wouldn't invest in it.”


You don’t invest in a lame horse you shoot it!

longpig Posted on 5/8 19:23
re: Chav culture

what about the hoodies then, are they the same?
do we have them round here?
if the chavs and the hoodies were to have a fight who would win?

ps. my opinion is that chav is just another youth culture phenomenon same as any other. some people who dress like that are tails and some are very decent, the rest lie in the middle somewhere, same as any other group of people.

my money would be on the hoodies anyway.

scumbags in general can come from any background.

TheBoy999 Posted on 5/8 19:23
re: Chav culture

The German model proves that a properly ran coal industry can be profitable. If only the Tories had invested when needed(as the Germans did) many jobs could have been saved.

"It did them no good whatsoever they and the industries they worked in are now gone."

When you have a goverment that don't give a sh-it about the workers and whose no' 1 aim is to destroy workers power(unions) then your just pishing in the wind.

Thatcher destroyed British industry because she didn't give a sh-it about ordinary people and braking up big industrial institutions meant braking up the Unions.

jason040270 Posted on 5/8 19:29
re: Chav culture

What are you on?

It has been cheaper for the best part of thirty years to import coal, than to source in the UK.

The unions made sure that they priced themselves out of the market.

Even the steel that built the Riverside was imported because it was cheaper than get it from down the road

TheBoy999 Posted on 5/8 20:24
re: Chav culture

So its ok that the farming industry/tory voters was, and still is subsidised to the tune of billions, but when it came to the miners there was no help to keep working class people in employment.

red_rebel2 Posted on 5/8 21:30
re: Chav culture

Of course the concept of class is divisive.

The concept of class stems from economics and the realities of life and they are divisive. The realities are that the social position, perspective, politics and the financial, educational and professional opportunities of the vast majority of people are pre-determined by economics.

If you are born rich, chances are you will remain rich no matter how thick, talentless or ignorant you are. If you are born poor, chance are you will remain poor no matter how bright, honest or hardworking you are. The game is rigged. The odd rags to riches success story is just window dressing.

The divide suits the rich and powerful and so they will do anything in their power to perpetuate it. They decide on the allocation of resources so education, health, investment is targeted to reinforce their own interest and bolster their command of the political machinery, aided and abetted by a media owned by rich men.

Any attempt by the poor to organise in an attempt to get a fair return on their labour to see social equality or political equity is smeared, undermined and if neccessary beaten down by force.

red_rebel2 Posted on 5/8 21:32
re: Chav culture

Come on Boy, one more push and this will be you first ton.

jason040270 Posted on 5/8 21:33
re: Chav culture

So all farmers are Tory voters, where did you get that statistic?

There you go with your working class crap again.

How many years has the Labour party been in power now. what have they done apart from raise taxes. raise the retirement age. Fewer doctors, nurses, dentists, police officers,




--- Post edited by jason040270 on 5/8 21:37 ---

ianson_smoggy Posted on 5/8 21:49
re: Chav culture

100

TheBoy999 Posted on 5/8 22:42
re: Chav culture

"How many years has the Labour party been in power now. what have they done apart from raise taxes."

Here's a little list of what they've achieved:-

1. Lowest inflation since the 60s
2. Low interest rates
3. Introduced the National Minimum Wage
4. Record police numbers in England and Wales
5. Cut overall crime by 35 per cent
6. Record levels of literacy and numeracy in schools
7. Best-ever primary school results
8. Funding for every pupil in England to double (since 1997) by 2007-08
9. Lowest unemployment for 29 years
10. Written off up to 100 per cent of debt owed by poorest countries
11. 78,700 more nurses
12. 27,400 more doctors
13. Brought back matrons to hospital wards
14. Devolved power to the Scottish Parliament
15. Devolved power to Welsh Assembly
16. Banned anti-personnel mines
17. NHS Direct offering free convenient patient advice at any time
18. New Deal - helped over a million people into work
19. Local government funding has increased by a third in real terms
20. Equalised the age of consent for gay men
21. Free entry to all national museums and galleries
22. Overseas aid budget more than doubled
23. Restored city-wide government to London
24. Child benefit up 25 per cent since 1997
25. Created Sure Start to help children from low income households
26. Introduced the Disability Rights Commission
27. £200 winter fuel payment to pensioners and extra £100 for over-80s
28. The biggest rolling stock replacement programme ever seen on our railways
29. Negotiated the historic Good Friday Agreement in Northern Ireland
30. Over 30,000 more teachers in England schools
31. Implemented the Freedom of Information Act
32. All workers now have a right to 4 weeks’ paid holiday
33. Record rises in the state pension
34. 700,000 children lifted out of relative poverty
35. Introduced child tax credit giving more money to parents
36. Banned handguns
37. Cut long-term youth unemployment by 75 per cent
38. Free nursery places for three and four-year-olds in England, Scotland and Wales
39. Free fruit for all four to six-year-olds at school
40. Free school milk for five, six and seven-year-olds in Wales
41. Record police numbers in Scotland
42. Implemented the Human Rights Act
43. Cleanest rivers, beaches, drinking water and air since the industrial revolution
44. Free TV licences for over-75s
45. Banned fur farming and the testing of cosmetics on animals
46. Halved maximum waiting times for NHS operations
47. Free local bus travel for over-60s
48. Record number of students in higher education
49. Extended the Race Relations Act so that all public bodies and functions now have a duty to promote race equality
50. Five, six and seven-year-olds in class sizes of 30 or less

Now this Labour goverment doesn't go far enough with socialists policies but its 100 times better than any Tory goverment.

jd1973 Posted on 5/8 23:31
re: Chav culture

There are some serious chips on shoulders here.

Theboy999 - why don't you list the failures of the labour government too? Nothing like a reasoned debate eh?

I also think you'll find that Britain is better off economically because of the privatisation of industries, and the closing of the coal mines at the time was the best decision for the country as a whole.

Boro66 Posted on 5/8 23:33
re: Chav culture

Very good TheBoy999 - cut and paste from the the independent review of the Labour government by the .....errr.....Labour Party Web site!!!!

Heard a good line once ... "There's no shame about being born in the gutter, but it's a sin to want to stay there"

Social classes are as much perpetuated by the working class as anyone. The inference is that the working classe are honest and hard working, while the middle and upper classes had everything handed on a plate. Everyone has the chance to work themselves out te gutter.

Even though the education system is poor in this country if you work hard and get qualifications you can achieve.

The main problem is asperation. I went to Brookside / Brackenhoe on the Prissick base and there were people from all bachkgounds, from central Middlesbrough, Marton and Nunthorpe. Anyone who WANTED to go to sixth form and college COULD if they got the grades. This was a function of aptitude and application (neither of which is background related, but aspiration and the coolness of being clever certainly was.

Link: http://www.labour.org.uk/top50achieve...

Bukowski_MFC Posted on 6/8 0:04
re: Chav culture

A chav is a chav - it has fck all to do with what "class" you are.

I live in a middle class area but I still class a fair amount of teenagers I see round here to be chavs.

Why?

Because they wear the chav uniform and some of them act like pr~cks.

I bet a fair few of them are quite well off but as teenagers they want to fit in. And teen culture at the moment appears to be chav-friendly.

It's all about the baseball caps, the burberry, the tops off, the tracky bottoms tucked into socks, the bling, the "I look like I've shat my pants" swagger.

--- Post edited by Bukowski_MFC on 6/8 0:26 ---

redz69 Posted on 6/8 0:32
re: Chav culture

I consider myself a natural born Chav, from Mandale area of Thornaby (which is not Chav, or ever has been) contradiction, but I dont care.

Today I worked at Osmotherley Show, and to be honest it was the best show Ive ever been to for the last 5 or 6 years. In a nutshell there was no bouncy castles or climbing walls, but there was plenty of raffle and tombola and interest stalls, there was a lot of polite people, there was a lot of horses and nobbers, there was a lot Union Flags rather than St George Crosses, there was a lot of people drinking bitter. In my 20s I was quite the Wolfie (Citizen Smith) but something today about Osmotherley made me think that if this section of "James Herriot" stylee life was to fade away, what a sad thing that would be. Even the horses and hounds charging round the show ring was great, even all the sheep shearing demos, even all the British Legion begging tents, even all the giant leaks and marrows....it was proper, thats all I could say about it.

Thats my way of upping the Cuntry life, Chavs forever. Burberry, Lacoste, Fila, Tachini, Pringle, Lyle and Scott.

redz69 Posted on 6/8 0:37
re: Chav culture

and i bought a retired greyhound, whom I collect Monday afternoon, fook ive done it again, but there is no going back now.

TheBoy999 Posted on 6/8 10:29
re: Chav culture

Boro66, did you think i compiled that list myself, i'm not that sad!

"Everyone has the chance to work themselves out te gutter."

Its not an even chance tho is it. The fact is if your parents are poor your likely to stay poor, if your parents are rich your likely to be rich. Its self perpetuating and the rich like it like that, obviously. The first step to erroding this handicapped race is by making schools truely comprhensive. Having one type of school ran by the state. Stopping the best teachers gravitating towards private, religious and funded schools. Making sure every pupil has access to the same quality in every aspect.

green_beret20 Posted on 6/8 10:47
re: Chav culture

Personally I'd like to see a bigger return to the Grammar school system.
I don't see the point of a single comprehensive system to just stick pupils of all abilities and aptitudes together. I don't see it as any other way than penalising those with intelligence.

Sorry but a lot of people demanding a fully comp system are usually those whom are envious of those whom are merely more intelligent.
Grammar school allowed my Uncle from a working class family in Southbank climb the social ladder. Should he have been held back because the other kids around him were less intelligent.

TheBoy999 Posted on 6/8 11:09
re: Chav culture

Beret thats why you have a set system. Where the brightest pupils are in set one because they are moving quicker than the others. The Grammer system did help my mam, but it also cast my dad(an intelligent man) aside at the age of 10.

Just another point, i have no dout that bad parents are responsible for alot of bad behaviour, bad education ethic and so on, but the question is what do we do about the problem?

A. Just leave it as it is letting them slip further and further into a sub culture, making sure they never rise out of it therefore never threatening middle class jobs, buisness' ect, and always supplying a source of menial labour.
or
B. Invest in education, better housing, better facilities and level the system to give them an even chance and maybe threaten the perpetuating cycle of the rich staying rich and the poor staying poor thats been going on for thousands of years.

jeff_potato Posted on 6/8 11:35
re: Chav culture

When I spoke of teen pregnancies and so forth, halfway back in this thread, TheBoy, I was indeed implying that we need better education, akin to that in the Netherlands.

In terms of liberal school standards, teaching is now seen as a normal job - like a doctor, police officer, it should be a vocation, it's not something you can just fob off like a lot of office jobs. I'm not saying schools don't care, just that the focus has shifted from nurturing people into the league table system. Gah. But that's another rant for another day.

jd1973 Posted on 6/8 12:07
re: Chav culture

People with tracksuit bottom tucked into socks should be lured into drinking dens with offers of free diamond white and tabs - this would be too good an offer for them to turn down.

The Diamond White should be laced with sedative, and then the chavs should be neutered whilst under the influence of the sedative.

This means they can't reproduce, and within a matter of years the culture will die out, as an entire generation of role models is left to die out without providing the country with an ever growing legion of good for nothing workshy leeches.

littleboro Posted on 6/8 12:53
re: Chav culture

what is the big problem with chav's.

the sense of dress code is not exactly new. since the 80's the youth have been wearing what is basically sports wear and baseball caps. baseball caps are not exactly a new invention.

attitude of the youth is a natural thing.

with any youth cuture there are "bad uns" but also "good uns." it easy to classify them into one whole group without thinking they are individual humans.

"oh it was a gang of chav's who did it" or 50 years ago "oh it was a gang of mods." NO, it was a gang of youths.

look back through history, recent, of youth culture we had the absolute beginners in the 50's.

try and put the image to the cultures.

teddy boys---drap jacketed knife welding thugs who listen to rock an roll.
mods---suit and scotter riding thugs who terrorise sea side towns.
skinhead---red DM's boots and attack anybody who looks at them.
hippies---dirty long haired lay abouts who did nothing but protest and fight the police.
bikers/rockers/grebo's---dirty leather jacketed bikers who fight other youth cultures.
punks---people with colured hair and spit at anybody who looks there way.
soul boys--- white shirts and white socks and fighting on the dance floor
rasta's---dope smoking 2nd generation afro-carrabians who fight and riot against the police.
scallies/casuals/joeyies---sports wearing football holligans.

ok i've missed a few cause i cant be bothered, (sloan rangers, beatnics, northern soulers etc).

mostly its a sterotyping of a youth culture that the media find easy to group together, and then ourselves.

i remember reading that a "punk rocker kills man". apparently he used a bike chain. did it mean that all punks were murderers? no of course not.

some of the younger posters will have mum's and dad's who were part of the above youth cultures. do they fit into the sterotyping?

as for "self improvement" its upto the individual to take the opportunity and find a life style that suits them. these opportunities these days are all round and there are people and places that are willing to give help. as a result even a later age you can still change your "life style." its up to the individual to grab the opportunities and take a risk.

if you're made redundant its not the end of the world. although it certainly pisses you off. its not nice and good for self confidence, self estrem, etc, but there are still chances to be had, as Mont.Fellow has mentioned.

the welfare state and dole is there to catch you and help you through a "non-income" period of your life and get you back into "income" and it shouldn't be there to be a "income" for the rest of your life.

it can be hard as general human nature will adapt to the situation but with encouragement and help the world is yours.

right that's me finished on me rant. time to in typical messageboard style to change the tread direction.

anybody going to reading?

MontagueLongfellow Posted on 6/8 12:58
re: Chav culture

Pretty much sums things up lb

TheBoy999 Posted on 6/8 13:01
re: Chav culture

I agree with you on that jeff. Also i think that the strange British attitude towards sex has a bearing on why we have so many teenage pregnancys. A mixture of victorian prudeness, British seaside postcard humour/carry on films and 60's, 70's/modern day liberation.

JD as least your honest about your Facist views, unlike many. <smiley thingy>

Boro66 Posted on 6/8 17:06
re: Chav culture

My point was it is a critique of the performance of the Labour government by the Labour party and therefore not entirely believable.

I don't know what proportion of the population go to comprehensives, everyone can progress if they have the application, aptitude and aspiration. The 'middle classes', whoever they are, going to private schools have little or no impact on me or how my children get on in school. My life is in my hands, and I tell my kids that.

It's not a class struggle for me, but a struggle between kids who want to learn and those that don't. My eldest goes to the Campus school in Billingham, not the best, but he will leave with qualifications; kids who mess about and lark in class, disrupt others and not get grades will fail and stay in the poorly paid jobs / umemployed, but mine won't.

I noticed at the last parents evening that many teachers emphasised that it is cool to be clever. But the teachers unions say to stop calling kids clever because it stigmatises them and they are bullied (my son was), but the response is not to stop saying 'clever' it is to stop the bullies.

I tell my some not to worry, they will be being sacked from McDonalds while he has a nice house and car in a nice area, enjoying life and visiting interesting places.

"There's no shame about being born in the gutter, but it's a sin to want to stay there"

ewe_boy Posted on 6/8 18:36
re: Chav culture

Boro,I think to 'get on' ,is simply about attitude and nothing to do with how clever you are or even application.
By attitude I mean keeping your nose clean,saying yes ,never being late for work,never voicing an opinion ,never having the misfortune to fall ill at 'inconvient' times and furthermore staying firmly put in your place and that in a nutshell is what it's all about ...knowing your place.
Middle class in my books is public school background,professional employment and nothing less, the rest of us are working class . There maybe stratification amongst the workforce ,in each occupation you tend to get a class within a class so to speak.
Chavs are merely the lowest end of the working class strata (lower working class} but once again thats a choice label,people choose to be lower working class .Middle class is a privelage rather than a choice.

The_Commisar Posted on 6/8 19:01
re: Chav culture

God there some left wing drivel on this thread.
Chavs, doesn't matter how much money mum and dad have, an irritating anti social little s**t is still an irritating anti social little s**t.

Class ? Pick you own and live in it.

The list of labour party achievements is impressive, you missed out losing international respect, getting the UK involved in a war with no seeming and managing to spend a fortune on local and national government without actually achieving much. Our granjids are saddled with Bliars debt.

TheBoy999 Posted on 6/8 19:15
re: Chav culture

A war that your beloved tories would have avoided i suppose? Not a chance.

The_Commisar Posted on 6/8 19:35
re: Chav culture

stop trying to deflect blame, Bliar screwed up big time.
He lied, he has to carry the can.

Then again, it appears is [erfectly acceptable for this government, and no one is to ever take responsibility, quite a change in stance from when they were in opposition.

jd1973 Posted on 6/8 19:35
re: Chav culture

I think you'll find the last 2 wars under the Tories were won quite convincingly.

Labour send our troops into battle without the necessary armour to do the job properly, and all because ordering the items would tip off the public we were going to war.

Add that to your list of "achievements" 999.

The truth is Labour are failing and have beem for many years - they should be sent back where they came from (mainly Scotland I believe).

foggonsfplandiet Posted on 6/8 20:03
re: Chav culture

Boy999: It's not about class, racism (where did you get THAT from?)or money.

I just don't want loud, arrogant, sneering "Give me it all NOW but I'm not paying for it" OAFS in my neighbourhood, making a hell of a noise, frightening people or racing about in shittey old Corsas.

Their class, race or financial position is of no relevance.

TheBoy999 Posted on 6/8 21:41
re: Chav culture

Where did i say its about racism? (where did you get THAT from?)

TheBoy999 Posted on 6/8 21:43
re: Chav culture

"racing about in shittey old Corsas."

Oh god they must be scum, they have old cars!

Boro66 Posted on 6/8 21:45
re: Chav culture

ewe_boy - agree with you broadly, though getting on is not always about knowing the right people and being a yes man, I have seen it happen though. There aren't many professions precluded because of perceived position in society. Professional employment? Doctor? Engineer? Judges? QCs? Army Officers? Civil Service? Merchant Bankers? All open to anyone with aptitude and drive.

There is plenty of scope for people to achieve in life without worrying about a minority of public school wallers in narrow-minded businesses who only take from a selected strata of society.

Don't get hung up on it - these people do not stop you achieving the best you can - it's up to you. What is your place? Where you make it.

Agree with LittleBoro about chavs.

TheBoy999 Posted on 6/8 21:46
re: Chav culture

"I think you'll find the last 2 wars under the Tories were won quite convincingly."

Do you mean the Falklands, which they caused through spending cut-backs. hhmmm!

ewe_boy Posted on 6/8 21:55
re: Chav culture

...and i'd have to agree with foggsonfplandiet, spot on !

jd1973 Posted on 6/8 21:57
re: Chav culture

Still won it though didn't they?

The current government is a joke. Can't you see that? You seem stuck in the myopic working class vote for Labour mindset that afflicts so many areas of the north.

Break free from the chains and see Blairs Labour for what they really are.

TheBoy999 Posted on 6/8 22:12
re: Chav culture

Yeah because the Tories did wonders for the north.

"Still won it though didn't they?"

Do you not see the irony? Your having a dig at labour for under spending on arms, when tory under spending on arms caused a war.

Anyway i'm starting to get uncomftable defending Labour. Their policys are no were near left wing enough. Then again Blair will say he did and does what he has to, to remain in power, something the Tories are past masters at. Policys are presented on the basis of what will win votes, not whats best for the country. One of the many flaws of democracy.

--- Post edited by TheBoy999 on 6/8 22:13 ---

chorleyphil Posted on 6/8 22:19
re: Chav culture

Boy999, as a socialist, you do an awful lot of defending of the antisocial 'Chavs'

TheBoy999 Posted on 6/8 22:28
re: Chav culture

Good one! But i'm not defending thier behaviour, i'm just saying there is a reason for it and a solution. But the ruling class aren't interested in the solution they'd rather keep the status quo and label and deride them ie call them chavs and have giggle at thier clothes, cheap gold and old cars.

jd1973 Posted on 6/8 22:33
re: Chav culture

Labour have taken us into a war the country do not need or do not want. There has not been an attack by a nation state on our sovereignty, unlike when Argentina invaded the Falklands.

What's worse - causing a war through lack of funding or entering a war as Dubya's poodle and not ordering equipment so the public (who the government claim to represent) don't find out?

MontagueLongfellow Posted on 6/8 22:34
re: Chav culture

No, there isnt a "solution"

People will carry on getting on with life as they wish as they have for decades.

Some will have a better start than others, some will do well for themselves.

Stop trying to complicate it with political mumbo jumbo

TheBoy999 Posted on 6/8 22:37
re: Chav culture

So if the Tories were in power at the time they would not have taken us to war?

chorleyphil Posted on 6/8 22:39
re: Chav culture

Its not just the establishment though.
I dont think its what 'chavs wear, its the pathetic way they lead there lives.. My son, 18, wears baseball caps, trackie bottoms, etc and could easily be labelled 'chav'. But he most certainly isnt!

TheBoy999 Posted on 6/8 22:39
re: Chav culture

Monty i wouldn't expect any other response from a true blue like you. Keep the sh-it in the sh-it eh?

ewe_boy Posted on 6/8 22:40
re: Chav culture

To be fair I think the average Chav isn't quite as boneheaded as people like to make them out.
For a start they always seem to have money to spend on alchopops,white lightning etc (i know i couldn't afford to drink everyday } aswell as the most expensive trainers money can buy, i Pods,bling {albeit cheap jewellery}. See, how they manage to do this is getting their gullible parents to believe they are so hard done by in the first place,how thier friends so happen to have everything they haven,t and so it goes on .Theyre blo0dy good actors/actresses , they know if they can make enough people {relatives} feel sorry for them (especially their grandparents},they know its a paying business...they will even have a reason why they cant find work ,usually with the retort ..i wish i could find a job ,it really isn,t fair ...why won't they employ me ...crafty little conts !!!

MontagueLongfellow Posted on 6/8 22:42
re: Chav culture

A true blue like me ?

Nah

Never voted, never would, brought up in a staunch labour family but had no intrest in politics, Ive got on with life, why dont you ?

TheBoy999 Posted on 6/8 22:47
re: Chav culture

I keep trying to monty, but the dole office keep sending me to job interviews i don't want! <Big smiley thing>

jd1973 Posted on 6/8 22:49
re: Chav culture

The Tory manifesto states that lorry drivers who dump dead bodies in laybys in rolled up carpets will be rewarded with £100,000 cash for each crime they can prove they've committed.

Does that sway you 999?

TheBoy999 Posted on 6/8 22:51
re: Chav culture

Fooking hell! I'll be a millionaire by Christmas.

MontagueLongfellow Posted on 6/8 23:05
re: Chav culture

Go to employers not the dole office then.

If I was on the bones of me ar­se Id work alongside someone in a particular field for nowt to learn the skills to do it for meself, Id still get me giro, I just wouldnt be sat on me ar­se.

Give it a try, you might just like it

ewe_boy Posted on 6/8 23:07
re: Chav culture

What's the most confusing day of the year for a Chav ?

ewe_boy Posted on 6/8 23:07
re: Chav culture

Fathers day !

TheBoy999 Posted on 7/8 7:44
re: Chav culture

I was joking Monty.

MontagueLongfellow Posted on 7/8 21:12
re: Chav culture

Yeah, I noticed your <Big smiley thing> but the red mists down on this subject, I can get a bit narky sometimes when I really should know better.

A course for the underpriveledged on how to do rivals network smilies will be my penance, it might help them improve themselves

Link: Sign up here

TheBoy999 Posted on 7/8 21:23
re: Chav culture


TheBoy999 Posted on 7/8 21:25
re: Chav culture

Yes it worked!



--- Post edited by TheBoy999 on 7/8 21:25 ---

MontagueLongfellow Posted on 7/8 21:25
re: Chav culture

Is that a chav on giro day hearing the postman at the letterbox ?



foggonsfplandiet Posted on 7/8 21:28
re: Chav culture

Boy999 you asked, "Where did i say its about racism? (where did you get THAT from?)"

I quote you: "The same people fighting against racism would happily call someone a chav, just because they have less money."

You mentioned it, Boy999!

As for allegations of laughing at them with their cheap gold chains, shittey cars, etc. I would much rather they went out and got full training, jobs and careers and a work ethic so that they each had an 06-plate Mercedes, a 24 carat gold chain and a sense of values and respect.

ChiefSpotter Posted on 7/8 21:44
re: Chav culture

Boy999 just has the world's largest chip on his shoulder.

The Labour party are shafting us all.

The Trillion pounds that people have borrowed is going to have to be paid back. They have allowed this country to become debt ridden.

The goverment (be it this one, or the next) are going to have to raise interest rates and income tax at some point to try and sustain our growing, ageing, general cant be arsed to work population.

MontagueLongfellow Posted on 7/8 21:47
re: Chav culture

For the record Id just like to say I havent borrowed a trillion pounds

ChiefSpotter Posted on 7/8 21:50
re: Chav culture

I think one or two of my neighbours may have done though.

It is amazing how many Lexus's have turned up in my road. also the amount of light that is emitted from the plasma tv's is blinding lol.

MontagueLongfellow Posted on 7/8 21:52
re: Chav culture

Fookin hell, they should of bought a Vectra

ewe_boy Posted on 7/8 21:52
re: Chav culture

Its not as easy to doss about as it used to be, a 2 week giro used to buy around 80 pints of pub beer not too many years ago ,now its only worth around 40 ...talk about depreciation.
Work it is ..like it or not

TheBoy999 Posted on 7/8 21:55
re: Chav culture

Just for the record (because i'm bored with this one and i can't find my hammer and chisel) if you read it carefully (that might be difficult for you as you don't have to read the Star very carefully, do you) you will see i didn't say it was about racism, my point was, that the same people who find prejudice against blacks unacceptable, find it acceptable to be prejudice against the underclass i.e calling them chavs.

foggonsfplandiet Posted on 7/8 21:59
re: Chav culture

You're not very good at expressing yourself then, are you?

By the way, Independent and Times actually, not the Star. That's a Chav paper.

ChiefSpotter Posted on 7/8 22:02
re: Chav culture

Never mind Boy more a dinosaur of an era that is thankfully done and dusted, you should climb back into to your Labour manifesto of 73 or go to the Hospital to see if you can have your head surgically removed from Tony Blair’s Bottom

TheBoy999 Posted on 7/8 22:06
re: Chav culture

Its not hard foggon. If i'd meant it was about racism i'd have said "this is about racism".

foggonsfplandiet Posted on 7/8 22:15
re: Chav culture

Boy: You have a politician's way with words.

Sceptic_Frank Posted on 8/8 0:11
re: Chav culture

What gets me about most socialist rhetoric is that the complaints of oppression through stereotyping, sweeping generalistions and pejorative language are always said to be perpetrated by some ridiculous capitalist middle class sterotype. Quite ironic really.

Maybe I've been indoctrinated by a sinister apathy but I have always thought that anyone who is excessively vehement about a political stance has reached a point where they can no longer appreciate an alternative perspective on any argument. And that, for me, is not a good state. My evidence in support of this theory is 99% of politicians.

--- Post edited by Sceptic_Frank on 8/8 0:14 ---

GtBB Posted on 8/8 9:27
re: Chav culture

"...the dole office keep sending me to job interviews i don't want!"

An honest admission, TheBoy999, spoilt only by your backsliding emoticon. The worst of it is that if you attend enough of these interviews you eventually end up in a job that you don't want living a life that you don't want amongst people you don't care for. It's not about having money, it's about not having the freedom of choice that money gives you. Sure, you're free to become a wandering tramp honking of urine and cider but if you have any self respect then you'll just have to face coersion and exploitation with as much dignity as you can muster.