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red_rebel2 Posted on 8/8 22:55
Would you resist if England was invaded?
And occupied.

Would you be willing to organise and fight? Would you hide weapons or a printing press, forge papers, put sugar in the enemies petrol tank, spy on troop movements knowing that the resistance would use the weapons and information to kill th einvaders?

Would you be a terrorist? Would the occupiers be justified in launching an air raid on the suburb you lived if you got caught?

Stepper_T Posted on 8/8 22:57
re: Would you resist if England was invaded?
I would.

Mr_Maz Posted on 8/8 22:59
re: Would you resist if England was invaded?
depends who is doing the raiding and what their motive is..


for example, if it was a united army of beautiful women from around the world wanting to enslave us for their sexual pleasure! I may just lay back and take whats coming to me

BroughtonLad Posted on 8/8 23:00
re: Would you resist if England was invaded?
I am sure most people would.
If a dog shits on most peoples footpath they would do that.

red_rebel2 Posted on 8/8 23:01
re: Would you resist if England was invaded?
Would it be fair for the invaders to shoot you as a terrorist?

Gillandi Posted on 8/8 23:01
re: Would you resist if England was invaded?
I'd see it coming, get out and do a DeGaulle, elect myself president of Free England from my base in El Paso.

DrBuck Posted on 8/8 23:02
re: Would you resist if England was invaded?
I wonder if we'd do any better than the last time we were invaded though?

Juventus Posted on 8/8 23:02
re: Would you resist if England was invaded?
Clever.

red_rebel2 Posted on 8/8 23:07
re: Would you resist if England was invaded?
Or would you side with the invaders, refuse to back the resistance, betray them to the new legal authorities maybe?

number_10 Posted on 8/8 23:07
re: Would you resist if England was invaded?
Funny how the right wingers aren't so eager to jump into this debate.

Read a nice quote the other day actually, I forget the writer but i'll share it anyway.

"Terrorism is a poor mans war, War is a rich mans terrorism".

Grumpy_Paul Posted on 8/8 23:15
re: Would you resist if England was invaded?
I'm not one of the right or left whingers but this is a poor analagy, nowhere near comparing like with like if referring to the mid east situation. Proxy Syrian and Iranian armed forces are not there for the benefit of Lebanon.

Boro_Owl Posted on 8/8 23:18
re: Would you resist if England was invaded?
Guerrila tactics for me, depending on if the invaders had the correct motives. If we are getting stuffed by Vikings who are just in it for the hell of it, I'm up for a little rebellion.

twe12th_man Posted on 8/8 23:23
re: Would you resist if England was invaded?
A tough one Rebel. I suppose it would depend on the forces invading. If their purpose was to create a democratic world, and we were to be part of that, then I'd maybe be with them planning the invasion in the first place. If, however, it was a shift to the right, I'd possibly stand against. That would very much depend on the reality of the situation.

moxzin Posted on 8/8 23:27
re: Would you resist if England was invaded?
Depends.

If we had been ruled by an iron, quasi-fascist dictatorship for decades and the liberators were here to usher in an historic liberal democracy, I'd support them every step of the way by helping them in any way I could and taking part in the new set-up.

If it is as we were now, already a liberal democracy, I would resist any other nation's attempts to invade in any way possible. I would probably join a guerrila resistance organisation as I couldn't live with myself thereafter if I didn't. But I'd never kill innocents or civilians. Just legitimate targets - soldiers, foreign politicians.

I certainly wouldn't get a truck bomb and explode it in Nottingham town centre killing dozens of Englishmen. For instance.

DrBuck Posted on 8/8 23:31
re: Would you resist if England was invaded?
Mind you it was rather pleasing to see that couple win the invaders after making a successful stand against them a few years back wasn't it?

neiltrodden Posted on 8/8 23:33
re: Would you resist if England was invaded?
I saw what rebel did there.

red_rebel2 Posted on 8/8 23:33
re: Would you resist if England was invaded?
It is not an analogy. It is a question that goes to the heart of national identity, political power and the right to self determination.

I don't accept for a second that it would depend on the politics of the invader either. There is no such thing as a benign invasion (liberation by a third party maybe) because military occupation presupposes the liquidation of the subjugated state's political infra-structure, military capacity, civil leadership and ability to determine its own policy.

If you say that it possible that a democratic world could be shaped by military invasion then you give carte blanche to anyone who the nerve to call themselves democratic and the neccessary military muscle to invade anyone who doesn't meet their measure of political norms.

Can you spread democracy through the barrel of a gun?

teflondon Posted on 8/8 23:35
re: Would you resist if England was invaded?
tony blair should be making plans for this
all he has to do is send a pirated copy of red dawn
to everyhouse in england
and well all be alright if we get invaded as well of seen this movie and well know what to do

Link: self help video

Boro_Owl Posted on 8/8 23:35
re: Would you resist if England was invaded?
Shotgun works best for spread shots.

ST0CK0 Posted on 8/8 23:36
re: Would you resist if England was invaded?
IMO, we have/are already being invaded, and the government are doing fuckall about it, so what do you suggest we do?

--- Post edited by ST0CK0 on 8/8 23:37 ---

Boro_Owl Posted on 8/8 23:37
re: Would you resist if England was invaded?
Invaded by who? You mean immigrants?

red_rebel2 Posted on 8/8 23:38
re: Would you resist if England was invaded?
What about 'collaborators' Mox? English civilians who actively aided the invasion. Could you kill them?

DrBuck Posted on 8/8 23:38
re: Would you resist if England was invaded?
Don't we already live in a world where the taking of another state is achieved by other than military means?

There is an argument that says that countrys/states are no longer relevant as it is multi nationals that actually run the world.

moxzin Posted on 8/8 23:39
re: Would you resist if England was invaded?
Its not at the barrel of the gun, but rather, via the gun. There is no other way Saddam could have been brought down unless by force from outside. In a police state with death for owning a satellite dish or distributing a banned newspaper, how would you expect to foster a popular revolt? It simply wasn't happening, the only thing the Iraqis had to hope for was that people in the West would one day recognise their plight and free them.

The Americans didn't round up millions of Iraqis and force march them to the election booths.

red_rebel - you a fan of Henry Kissinger by any chance?

red_rebel2 Posted on 8/8 23:39
re: Would you resist if England was invaded?
Yes Buck. That old fashioned hardware on the ground hostile takeover stuff is an indication of complete corporate failure.

twe12th_man Posted on 8/8 23:40
re: Would you resist if England was invaded?
It's the only way it's been done so far Rebel. Either the barrel or fear of it, otherwise the status quo would have been maintained.

red_rebel2 Posted on 8/8 23:44
re: Would you resist if England was invaded?
Iraq kind of proves the point though doesn't it. Democracy brought by liberal-military means, freedom from tyranny ... yet still there is widespread resistance. Still popular armed struggle against the foreigners no matter how benign they see themselves. And the people who resist the are labelled terrorists.

moxzin Posted on 8/8 23:47
re: Would you resist if England was invaded?
Its not resistance against the invaders though. How is blowing up the Samarra mosque, the UN HQ, the market places, the endless car bombs in Shia areas, attacking the invaders? Come on red_rebel, think about it.

twe12th_man Posted on 8/8 23:49
re: Would you resist if England was invaded?
Of course there's resistance. Democracy wasn't supposed to mean domination by the world's richest power. We were all going to have a say in the way things were organised. It proves only that democracy has never existed. Those espousing it haven't yet sampled it.

red_rebel2 Posted on 8/8 23:52
re: Would you resist if England was invaded?
There's plenty still coming home here and stateside in bodybags. Come on Mox, think about it.

But that is a diversion. The point is this... is it morally right to resist an invasion by a foreign power?

You can't bend that, make it provisional dependent on your particular politics or because you don't want to answer in a way that compromises your position elsewhere. Is it justifiable.

If England were invaded and occupied, would you resist?

moxzin Posted on 8/8 23:56
re: Would you resist if England was invaded?
red_rebel. I'm sorry to be so crude but you're really not getting this at all.

Firstly you nicely skirted over my contesting of the many and frequent terrorist atrocities in Iraq on IRAQIS as "resistance", which is fair enough as I don't think it helps your case.

But secondly, why can't you see that it depends totally on the circumstances.

Would we want Boro to be taken over by another group? Well, if its like it is now and Steve Gibson is in charge, its a no. But if some time way in the future we had a money-grabbing, tight chairmen who hated the fans - yes!

sunset_over_ici Posted on 9/8 0:00
re: Would you resist if England was invaded?
'The point is this... is it morally right to resist an invasion by a foreign power?

You can't bend that, make it provisional dependent on your particular politics or because you don't want to answer in a way that compromises your position elsewhere. Is it justifiable.'

Of course it's provisional. These things aren't black and white at all.

moxzin Posted on 9/8 0:01
re: Would you resist if England was invaded?
I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks that this is the Geopolitical version of "How long is a piece of string?".

red_rebel2 Posted on 9/8 0:02
re: Would you resist if England was invaded?
No, you're not getting it Mox. It is a question of morality, not one of political convenience.

That fact is that yes, it IS morally justified to resist armed aggression and invasion by any people of any race, creed or colour. To say anything else is ridiculous.

That evasion of that reality on your part is symptomatic of the way the commentators in the west handles anything from outside the hermetically sealed bubble of arroganace and hypocracy.

When we do anything, of course it is justfied. When anyone else does exactly the same, well that is an outrageous breach of civilised norms.

moxzin Posted on 9/8 0:06
re: Would you resist if England was invaded?
I guess. Thats why the French didn't welcome the Americans as liberators in WW2, and started fighting them.

No wait, that was different, wasn't it? Oh.

There's no one size fits all for this red_rebel and I still can't believe you'd think there was.

Would you sell your house if someone offered you money? Well, if it was a considerable amount below what it was worth - no! If it was a considerable amount above what it was worth - yes!

DrBuck Posted on 9/8 0:12
re: Would you resist if England was invaded?
Personally I detest the way the media and your average Joe in the street potray any foreign invasion/rebellion as an uprising, something that hasn't been thought out and planned. It's as if we in the 'Western democracies' are the only ones capable of exploring our morals, motives and reasons for taking action. Johnny Foreigner really is inferior.

Rocky_Rhythm Posted on 9/8 0:24
re: Would you resist if England was invaded?
I'd be the double double agent. Fighting for the winning cause as was necesary, then hiding when the going got tough.

I'm half Italian and half French, and would have no idea which way to run

Grumpy_Paul Posted on 9/8 0:26
re: Would you resist if England was invaded?
'It is a question that goes to the heart of national identity, political power and the right to self determination.'

If you are relating to the mid east situation then the above is somewhat incorrect. It's complicated by the presence of a proxy force doin the bidding of two countries not directly involved in the conflict.
Hezbolah at the bidding of Syria and Iran disrupt the heart of national identity, political power and the right to self determination in Lebanon

Revol_Tees Posted on 9/8 0:32
re: Would you resist if England was invaded?
moxzin - "resistance" movements aren't always stable, coherent projects with clearly defined objectives, replete with Great Men and heroes direct from central casting. They often explode out into unpredictable, contradictory and even unsavoury fragments that might at times seem difficult to support or condone, hence the situation in Iraq, Palestine, Lebanon and all over the world throughout history.

Outright invasion and occupation, as r_r says, will always lead to popular armed struggle against the foreigners, to varying degrees, when the infrastructure of the country has been decimated in the process, when the home population has suffered thousands of fatalities, and when the dignity of the nation as a whole has been effaced. When that happens, no matter how “benign” the invaders’ intentions, it will always be seen as an occupying force, not a liberating one.

ccole Posted on 9/8 0:34
re: Would you resist if England was invaded?
If to me there are seen as evil, then I hope I would be able to follow a brave leader like the last time this country was threatened...


We shall not flag nor fail. We shall go on to the end. We shall fight in France and on the seas and oceans; we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air. We shall defend our island whatever the cost may be; we shall fight on beaches, landing grounds, in fields, in streets and on the hills. We shall never surrender.


No surrender for me. And shooting people who I would see as assisting that evil wouldn't be a problem, though its easy to say sat here at work in a comfy office.

--- Post edited by ccole on 9/8 0:42 ---

GtBB Posted on 9/8 0:35
re: Would you resist if England was invaded?
red_rebel2 - Invaded most of England twenty years ago and it has to be said, we met little resistance

moxzin Posted on 9/8 0:36
re: Would you resist if England was invaded?
But what if Hitler had invaded, won, and ruled the country for the next, say, 20 years.

When the American paratroopers finally rained down over our island, don't you think there'd be more flowers then suicide belts?

It'd be a liberation. While the first invasion was a subjugation.

sunset_over_ici Posted on 9/8 0:38
re: Would you resist if England was invaded?
'Outright invasion and occupation, as r_r says, will always lead to popular armed struggle against the foreigners, to varying degrees'

Don't think anyone would argue against that but it's not really an answer to the question posed.

red_rebel2 Posted on 9/8 0:45
re: Would you resist if England was invaded?
Mox:

I said earlier that 'liberation by a third party' was an exception. That is because (as in France etc) they are seen as coming to support the legitimate resistance that is already in place against the occupier.

Had the American invaded France instead of the Germans it would not have been roses thrown at their troops in the street of France. Especially if they came saying they were going to teach the French about democracy.

A direct invasion, no matter what positive spin the occupying force puts on it, almost always provokes resistance.

moxzin Posted on 9/8 0:47
re: Would you resist if England was invaded?
Maybe some believe that the Americans were a 3rd party, and that the Baathist coup was the first invasion.

ccole Posted on 9/8 0:50
re: Would you resist if England was invaded?
If the majority of the population were in favour of a change of life and authority, would the minority be just in resisting the wishes of the masses with an armed struggle?

Would then the actions of this minority be classed as terrorism

Revol_Tees Posted on 9/8 0:52
re: Would you resist if England was invaded?
"...that the Baathist coup was the first invasion."

Now come on, that's piss poor. Baathists didn't "invade" Iraq, Hitler didn't invade Germany, and Tony Blair/New Labour didn't invade England.


Marlon_D Posted on 9/8 7:49
re: Would you resist if England was invaded?
I'm sure red_rebel and the rest of the Ikea Socialists on this board would just retreat to their weekend country home.

SuperBokSupper Posted on 9/8 7:53
Who do you agree with, Israel or Lebanon
thats what the title should read rebel.

red_rebel2 Posted on 9/8 8:19
re: Who do you agree with, Israel or Lebanon
No SBS. It is a serious question. It is a type of political algebra and to come up with an answer sometimes you have to remove the relative values and instead substitute abstracts.

We can't expect to deny other people's the right to do what we would expect to do ourselves in the same circumstances.

Although to be fair, faced with the prospect of American aggression our government would almost certainly roll over.

SuperBokSupper Posted on 9/8 8:21
re: Who do you agree with, Israel or Lebanon
What would you do if a communist state invaded or, more likely, we fought a communist country?
Would you attempt to undermine Britain and actively fight against your countrymen?

The_Commisar Posted on 9/8 8:31
re: Who do you agree with, Israel or Lebanon
R_R won't answer, instead he will come back with some very wooly statements and try and turn the question round, you see, it may be his Krondstadt.
Like anyone on the left, he will find the theory, the sheer joy of a deep political philosophy intoxicating, it's on;y when they have to face the realities that the left, that marxism has at it's core a failure, it's a paradigm that simply cannot work in the real world.

red_rebel2 Posted on 9/8 8:50
re: Who do you agree with, Israel or Lebanon
A communist state invaded? Were there such a beast and it was successful it would not be a question of aiding an invasion but of formenting revolution so that British workers not foreign ones toppled the existing state.

If a foreign opressor state invaded I think you would find that the left with its cell structure, plans for illegality and hidden presses would be at the core of any resistance. As usual.

Ah, Kronstadt. The moment the Russian revolution died.

--- Post edited by red_rebel2 on 9/8 8:52 ---

The_Commisar Posted on 9/8 8:52
re: Who do you agree with, Israel or Lebanon
would YOU fight though?
yes or no

mungmincher Posted on 9/8 8:55
re: Who do you agree with, Israel or Lebanon
yes I understand the concept of communism and its theory.
Do you think there is a big enought base in Britain that you could do it peacefully?

your beliefs are founded in good principle and well meant but are bordering on the ridiculous and absolutely unatainable.

A utopian society can never exist whilst politics, religion, nationalities and human feelings exist.

red_rebel2 Posted on 9/8 8:55
re: Who do you agree with, Israel or Lebanon
No, I wouldn't fight. I would write. From each according to their abilities....

Lucky_Alf Posted on 9/8 8:56
re: Who do you agree with, Israel or Lebanon
Should we have allowed the Third Reich to retreat back into their own country and continue ruling their own land or were we right to "liberate" their people?

I wonder what the average German citizen would think today?

The_Commisar Posted on 9/8 8:58
re: Who do you agree with, Israel or Lebanon
R_R, do you ever consider that coming down from your lofty marxist tower lo look at the reality of peoples lives may give you a better insight to the failings of Marxism ?

mungmincher Posted on 9/8 8:59
re: Who do you agree with, Israel or Lebanon
well I agree that the pen is mightier than the sword rebel.

Lucky Alf,

you cannot put the present German government and people in the same situation as that of Hitlers Germany.

Im sure the Jewish Germans, the Gypsies and the homosexual Germans to name a few were quite thankful we 'liberated' them.

Lucky_Alf Posted on 9/8 9:03
re: Who do you agree with, Israel or Lebanon
My point exactly Mr Muncher.

mungmincher Posted on 9/8 9:05
re: Who do you agree with, Israel or Lebanon
btw i am superboksupper,

mungmincher was my alias in the fairly juvenile 'rude username' debacle and i have somehow logged in with that.

SBS

twe12th_man Posted on 9/8 9:09
re: Who do you agree with, Israel or Lebanon
Has anyone really been able to examine the failings of Marxism when it hasn't existed? The failings of Capitalism are all around to observe.

Cobain_94 Posted on 9/8 9:12
re: Who do you agree with, Israel or Lebanon
"your beliefs are founded in good principle and well meant but are bordering on the ridiculous and absolutely unatainable.

A utopian society can never exist whilst politics, religion, nationalities and human feelings exist."

I fully agree with that.

On the origional point, I'd probably be like most people on here who've said they'd fight and be too scared to fight for fear of being shot.

TheBoy999 Posted on 9/8 9:15
re: Who do you agree with, Israel or Lebanon
What about the allied invasion of Germany? Should the Germans have set up a resistance to occupation? Started bombing its own citizans with the aid of foireign nationals? Don't forget R-R that alot of the 'resistance' in Iraq is from groups made up largely of foreign nationals. It could be argued that the 'resistance' is in fact an invasion force.

SuperBokSupper Posted on 9/8 9:15
re: Who do you agree with, Israel or Lebanon
just my luck,

my first post anyone agrees with and i use my rude username

buggar.

TheBoy999 Posted on 9/8 9:21
re: Who do you agree with, Israel or Lebanon
Red this is a strange one from you. On another thread you are argueing that terrorism isn't simply black and white. But on this one you argue your case is a simple fact of black and white. I usually enjoy your work, but this ones just contradictory and self serving. Give it up red, this ones lost.

--- Post edited by TheBoy999 on 9/8 9:22 ---

red_rebel2 Posted on 9/8 9:27
re: Who do you agree with, Israel or Lebanon
The point is a simple one. It is easy to condemn Hizbollah, or the Palestinians, or the Vietnamese or whoever for resisting but isn't it a natural response of any people when faced with invasion to fight for their national liberation?

That right is not contingent on whether you agree with their politics or not and unless you accept that there is no way of understanding the dynamics of any conflict.

I think in the Lebanon case the public and politicians in the West are too busy overlaying the situation with their own short term political agendas to recognise some basiv realities.


What about you Boy? Would you resist? Or would you roll over and accept that the invaders had a legitmate right to invade, and anyway, their system and politics or God are better than ours so maybe it would be be best if we just stopped fighting and let them do what they want?

green_beret20 Posted on 9/8 9:31
re: Who do you agree with, Israel or Lebanon
It completely depends on the situation.

The people of the Ukraine never warmed to the communist iron fist had Hitler played his cards right he could of used them. As it turns out the Nazi ideology prevented this and therefore the people of the Ukraine had two stark choices, certain death with Hitler or a slim chance with Stalin.

You seem to be fooling yourself into this peaceful notion that military forces can achieve nothing which is utter nonsense.

It wasn’t Ghandi who freed India, it was their acceptance to support Britain with the guarantee of independence.

KENDAL Posted on 9/8 9:47
re: Would you resist if England was invaded?
I'd phone up Jimmy Nail and Yosser Hughes and get them to sort it.

Private_Fraser Posted on 9/8 9:51
re: occupied england
even i'd fight, and i'm a jock living here! dunno how i'd feel if it were Scotland doing the invading, but that's unlikely, as we've worked out other ways of running your country.

TheBoy999 Posted on 9/8 9:52
re: Would you resist if England was invaded?
I'll go wiyh what Mox said:-

"If we had been ruled by an iron, quasi-fascist dictatorship for decades and the liberators were here to usher in an historic liberal democracy, I'd support them every step of the way by helping them in any way I could and taking part in the new set-up."

Red i'm a socialist, of sorts, as you know. But i also believe democracy (despite its many, many flaws) is the best system we have and we've ever had. I believe that democray is a basic human right and people shouldn't be denied it.

Remember Red that there was resistance groups in Iraq before the war, resistance to the rule of tyranny.

red_rebel2 Posted on 9/8 10:15
re: Would you resist if England was invaded?
I think internal resistance is a different situation. That comes down to politics, usually regional seperatism, sometimes historical ethnic divides. The dynamics are different and usually armed struggle happens when there is no political process through which the dissent can be expressed.

Invasion from outside is different. It forces together disparate groupings that will dissolve political differences and unite around the question of national sovereignty.

zaphod Posted on 9/8 10:33
re: Would you resist if England was invaded?
It's not true that all invasions spawn resistance movements. The Allied occupations of Germany and Japan didn't. Not all of the countries occupied by the Soviet Union after WW II put up much resistance. Many British colonies had virtually no resistance movements and had independence handed to them when Britain no longer felt morally justified in hanging on to them.

The concept of a "just war" includes the idea that war should only be undertaken if there is some prospect of winning, because otherwise it just means a lot of pointless killing. I think violent resistance to a successful invasion should be subjected to the same test. However much one sympathises with the plight of Palestinians, Hezbollah and Hamas cannot possibly win this fight (and PR victories don't count) and were in my view not justified in taking violent action, especially given Israel's appalling record of overreacting to provocation. A lot of people killed to no good purpose.

Sceptic_Frank Posted on 9/8 11:03
re: Would you resist if England was invaded?
It a standard political contradiction, I think the people whose instinctual reaction would be resistance through violence would predominantly be those that the left criticise and patronise.

red_rebel2 Posted on 9/8 11:08
re: Would you resist if England was invaded?
I'm not sure that is true. Most national liberation struggles seem to have a significant 'leftist' core.

The ANC was founded by the South African Communist Party for instance. Most of the resistsnce moveemnts against the Nazi's were led by Communists. The PLO had a marxist factioon. The old IRA had a socialist element and the officials disbanded themselves and became 'the Workers Party'.

Even Hezbollah have a left tinge. The Lebanese Communist Party dissolved itself into it in 1999, recognising that with its schools, hospitals and welfare services it had become a popular organisation with deep roots. Whether these ex-Stalinists are organised as a faction or have been bumped off I don't know.

grantus Posted on 9/8 11:14
re: Who do you agree with, Israel or Lebanon
I'd be one mean motherf'cking freedom fighter.

It's like Crocodile Dundee once suprisingly said about the Aboriginal Australians' claim for land right on areas of Australia from the government.

"It's like two fleas arguing over who owns the dog they live on"

We humans still have an unbelievable amount to learn.

mufflar Posted on 9/8 11:38
re: Who do you agree with, Israel or Lebanon
To be honest, I imagine the FMTTM resistance to be more like Dad's Army than the IRA...

rararasputin2 Posted on 9/8 12:14
re: Who do you agree with, Israel or Lebanon
Read "invasion 1999"in 2000ad Bill Savage gave the Volgans a good ass kicking and thats what Id be like.

red_rebel2 Posted on 9/8 12:20
re: Who do you agree with, Israel or Lebanon
'Alo Alo, more like.

I picture Commissar as Rene, Moxzin as Herr Flick and Ms Curly as the Fallen madonna With Ze Beeg Boobies.

little_nibbler Posted on 9/8 12:46
re: Who do you agree with, Israel or Lebanon
Oh yeah I would, just like on that pretend film with all those kids who fought against the Russians who invaded America, 'Red Dawn' I think it was called. I would be a ‘Wolverine’ and live in the mountains on dead animals and wear their skins as camaflage and swoop down in dawn raids to kill the enemy and steal food from Asda before returning to my lair. It would be mint.

Azedarac Posted on 9/8 12:48
re: Who do you agree with, Israel or Lebanon
One thing I am learning is that the value we place on life is relative. In one instance dozens of football fans being killed at Hillsborough is a major national tragedy, and rightly so. Yet the hundreds of innocent people who have died in Israel, Palestine and Lebanon are spoken of in abstract terms, almost as if we are talking about a game of Risk rather than hundreds of thousands of normal people being terrorised, killed or displaced.

I'm sure decent political points are being made on all sides of the debate, but occasionally we should all take a step back and remember the massive human tragedy. Comparing the situation to a similar conflict in our own country is a good way of shaking everyone out of sleepwalking their way through well trodden entrenched political debate.

rararasputin2 Posted on 9/8 12:48
re: Who do you agree with, Israel or Lebanon
Eat good ol blighty lead and die , Volgan scum!

Please note kiddies eating lead is bad for you.

Nedkat Posted on 9/8 13:28
re: Who do you agree with, Israel or Lebanon
Most definitely !! I'd see those invading scumbags back into the English Channel, PDQ ... !! No fookin' sweat !!

XXLshirts_fit_all Posted on 9/8 13:36
re: Who do you agree with, Israel or Lebanon
this country that is invading us, have we been allowing a clandestine cowardly organisation to indiscriminately lobb missiles into there towns and villages from with in our borders and from within our civillian areas, or making incursions into their teretory to kidnap there soldiers. are they a country trying to legitimately secure their borders to allow a peace process that will give an oppressed group in their country an independant state thus podssibly destabalising this process.
are we aslo backed by 2 other countries that only serve to upset the situation and want that said country wiped off the map.

just wondering like because that might affect whether i want to fight for my country for doing this or be embarrased by it?

towz Posted on 9/8 13:40
re: Who do you agree with, Israel or Lebanon
Israel has regularly terrorised Palestinians and Lebanese alike for the past 50 odd years.

--- Post edited by towz on 9/8 13:41 ---

--- Post edited by towz on 9/8 13:53 ---

BobendBill Posted on 9/8 13:47
re: Who do you agree with, Israel or Lebanon
we have been invaded ..... slowly over the last 40 years !!

anyone who 'resists' is called a racsist .

Trotsky4u Posted on 9/8 13:50
re: Who do you agree with, Israel or Lebanon
BobendBill - are you intellegent enough to tie your own shoe laces because statements like that suggest not?

Kilburn Posted on 9/8 13:51
re: Who do you agree with, Israel or Lebanon
Who is 'we'?

YodaTheCoder Posted on 9/8 13:52
re: Would you resist if England was invaded?
Not me. I've never been invaded!

rararasputin2 Posted on 9/8 13:52
re: Who do you agree with, Israel or Lebanon
We could use the message board to transmit resistance messages in code.
ie Southgate out! Could mean blow up the transporter at dawn.

Lefty3668 Posted on 9/8 13:59
re: Would you resist if England was invaded?
Just when I thought Revol had 'poster of the week' sewn up along comes red_rebel with a snorter.

To answer the question, yes, I would resist. The form of the invasion or occupation might dictate how and when I carry it out. I probably would not resist a 'liberation' by a Western Democracy with a good record of human rights from an oppressive regime to begin with, but if they overstayed their welcome or if they imposed an administration or if their armed forces began committing atrocities then I would fight.

If the occupation was by a power with a poor human rights record, or if it was more oppressive of its citizens than the one I was currently living under then my resistance would come all the more sooner.

As for the nature of my resistance, certainly I would resist through spoken and written argument. I would be prepared to engage in or provide intelligence for action against property, however I think I would draw the line at killing or injuring people. I would hope so anyway.

Having said that, if the occupying force made Middlesbrough a Free Fire zone, started killing housewives hanging out their washing or wandering around calling us ‘untermenschen’ that might change.

Even if the imposed regime was a good one I would want to replace it with one of our own.

zoec Posted on 9/8 14:00
re: Would you resist if England was invaded?
Bobendbill - I presume you have proof that your ancestors have been in Britian since it separated from the continent and have never been immigrants?

towz Posted on 9/8 14:03
re: Would you resist if England was invaded?
I'd buy a big van full of explosives and blow myself up

The_Commisar Posted on 9/8 14:17
re: Would you resist if England was invaded?
I like this country, I like the fact it's less than perfect, so I would resist.
Armed resistance yes if that was able to be undertaken, resistance through non cooperation, yup.

I believe that the Buddhist monks in Tibet have taken resistance to a new level of subtlety.
Their beliefs and the overwhelming military force of China prevents armed resistance so instead, they take the piss out of the invaders. Yes, they laugh at them.
That for me is a very clever, and brave, form or resistance.

red_rebel2 Posted on 9/8 14:30
re: Would you resist if England was invaded?
I like that ridicule strategy Commissar. You baldy get.

I fear were occupation ever to happen here there would be no resistance of note at all. The English are pampered, selfish and lazy and have been made soft and podgy by central heating and pizza. We lack steel. We lack political consciousness.

As long as the occupiers kept the television and the beer going most of the English would be happy as larry.

The_Commisar Posted on 9/8 14:37
re: Would you resist if England was invaded?
I am indeed, a baldy get.
The one thing we can be sure off is that there will never be a revolution from the left of the right in the UK, on the left, the revolutionary committeee would desolve in nano seconds with accusations of "splitters" being hurled about, on the right, you'd never get Major Bufty-Tuffton Smythe to put down his GandT long enough to organise a putsche.

Did you catch this ?

Link: right up your street

rararasputin2 Posted on 9/8 14:37
re: Would you resist if England was invaded?
"As long as the occupiers kept the television and the beer going most of the English would be happy as larry." That'd do me.

Sceptic_Frank Posted on 9/8 14:42
re: Would you resist if England was invaded?
Selfish and lazy or secular and contented? Maybe people see nations blowing each other to bits over relgious or territorial disputes and they're just happy that they live in a country where their family is comparatively safe. Sure a lot of modern western culture is frivolous but I know where I'd rather be.

Red_Slim Posted on 9/8 14:46
re: Would you resist if England was invaded?
Hello R_R

"The English are pampered, selfish and lazy and have been made soft and podgy by central heating and pizza."

We've earned it. Not sure I like your cynical packaging but you're right to a point. There's nothing really wrong with it though, is there? Is a life of work, sex, football matches, TV and DVDs, PCs and overwhelming choice of food and drink, bikes, cars and choice so really very bad? We're as diverse in our lifestyle choices as anyone.

Aren't you jumping to the conclusion that we can't think, read, discuss, feel, emote (and fight possibly?) within the same lifestyle. Not true was the cry!

I hear Bin Laden is a great fan of Countryfile.

Azedarac Posted on 9/8 14:49
re: Would you resist if England was invaded?
The urge to fight is still there - go to any town centre on a Friday night at kicking out time to see it in all it's glory.

red_rebel2 Posted on 9/8 14:59
re: Would you resist if England was invaded?
Hitchens v Service. What a brilliant scrap full of leftist code words for "you're a bstard". Missed that but I'll "listen again" later. Thanks

Of course, when a crisis in capital brings us toa revolutionary moment all those fragments of sectarian pseudo-Marxists will be swept away by the tide of history, irrelevent as the working classes form their own autonomous organsations.

Kilburn Posted on 9/8 15:02
re: Would you resist if England was invaded?
You say pampered, I say healthy. You say podgy, I say well-nourished.

The British are in decent enough shape to be able to resist. Toughness and steel can only be acquired through experience, which would come soon enough in the event of an invasion.

I'd be a sniper, I reckon, because on the few times I have picked up a rifle in my life, I have managed unexpected feats of accuracy.

YodaTheCoder Posted on 9/8 15:02
re: Would you resist if England was invaded?
r_r2, you lost me there.

--- Post edited by YodaTheCoder on 9/8 15:02 ---

red_rebel2 Posted on 9/8 15:41
re: Would you resist if England was invaded?
Yoda man, if you can't follow that then you are going to struggle like hell with all the code used by the underground.

The_Commisar Posted on 9/8 15:57
re: Would you resist if England was invaded?
R-R
you need to talk to his alternate ego
YodaTheDeCoder

Revol_Tees Posted on 9/8 16:04
re: Would you resist if England was invaded?
What a petulant, pompous bellend Hitchens is. It's ironic that what Galloway does on Sky News, Hitchens does three days later on Radio 4 light entertainment. No wonder these guys hate each other.

"Come on, Christopher, you've chosen him as your great life. I expected you to tell me what a wonderful man he was, and the great things he might have achieved and you're unable to do that and you start talking about committees and party structures."

"I'm sorry if I'm wasting your time."

"No, I just want you to explain."

"You're a greedy Tory. Much of what I say will be wasted on you."

"Yes I am and I can explain why".

"I know why people are Tories, it doesn't take 45 minutes and it isn't interesting. I think we're done. I've got to be somewhere at 1pm."

--- Post edited by Revol_Tees on 9/8 16:06 ---

br14 Posted on 9/8 18:20
re: Would you resist if England was invaded?
Perhaps I'm missing something, but I think Red Rebel is trying to get us to understand why Hizbollah exists.

But then most of us realise that and so those who have placed themselves firmly on the side of the just and true (played out in this scenario by Ehud and his buddies George and Tony) are kicking and screaming about "moral rectitude" and "it depends".

Does it f**k depend. Just admit that most of you would do just what Hizbullah are doing. Right or wrong nobody likes occupying forces.

Thats why at one time US and British forces were welcomed in Iraq as saviours and 6 months later all apart from the elites that need the occupying forces want them out.

XXLshirts_fit_all Posted on 9/8 18:41
re: Would you resist if England was invaded?
but isnt my questiion earlier worth answering, would england put its self in a position where another country would feel it needs to invade us unless that country was a despotic regeim that just wanted to rule the world. would we let the south of our country be a base for a "terrorist" organisation that indiscriminatley bombs the said prospective invaders, would we be backed by 2 countries whos sole aim is to use us as a pawn to try to rid the planet of that said country who may only be trying to provide secure borders for its people ect ect

sw2boro Posted on 9/8 19:13
re: Would you resist if England was invaded?
What if I thought both sides were in the wrong?

TheBoy999 Posted on 9/8 19:30
re: Would you resist if England was invaded?
Shoot yourself!

TheBoy999 Posted on 9/8 19:34
re: Would you resist if England was invaded?
BR the allies were an occupying force in Germany and i would imagine most Germans are thankful of them.

sw2boro Posted on 9/8 20:23
re: Would you resist if England was invaded?
Not the Werewolves who went killing German collaborators with the Allies.

br14 Posted on 9/8 23:01
re: Would you resist if England was invaded?
I think you'll find the Germans will be happy when the last vestages of the Allied occupation are gone.

But maybe the Germans enjoyed watching Allied tanks running around their countryside for 40 years.

Admittedly during the cold war the troops served a purpose, but I doubt for one minute that many Germans enjoyed the fact that they could end up a nuclear playground.

swordtrombonefish Posted on 9/8 23:05
re: Would you resist if England was invaded?
Depends, They can have Birmingham and Portsmouth. Other than that I'll fight em all, barehanded - if not completely bare.....with just Scarlett O'hara, Angelina Jolie amd Kate Bekinsdale for support (and occasional manipulations).