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hailstorm Posted on 15/9 7:58
The Pope upsets Muslims

Poor old Benedict, he has upset the sensitive souls during a visit to his home country. This is extracted from the Independent.

"The Pope did not mean to offend Muslim sensibilities, the Vatican said, as anger built in the Islamic world over some of his remarks during his pilgrimage in Germany.

The Pope made his remarks on Islam in a speech in which he quoted from a book recounting a conversation between 14th century Byzantine Christian Emperor Manuel Paleologos II and an educated Persian on the truths of Christianity and Islam.

"The emperor comes to speak about the issue of jihad, holy war," the Pope said.

"He said, I quote, 'Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached,"' he quoted the emperor as saying.

Benedict added, "I quote," twice before pronouncing the phrases on Islam and described them as "brusque," while neither explicitly agreeing with nor repudiating them".

Clever man the Pope. Quoting from comments made about Islam almost 700 years ago. The spread of Islam by the sword and Jihad was true then and if Osama and his ilk had there way, we would return to the dim and not so glorious past.

I can think of a few people who have upset Muslims, so the Pope is not in bad company. A Danish Cartoonist, A Dutch woman MP originally from Somalia, a Dutch Film Maker, a Dutch politician Pim Fortune, Salman Rushdie, the Pakistani woman who was raped and then accused of adultery, Martin Amis, George Bush, Tony Blair, all Jews, most Christians, most Hindus, most Buddhists, most Confucians, etc., etc.,

Who's next to speak the truth that cannot be told? It is plainly obvious that Islam was spread by the sword to anybody who is aware of the facts. Its message has always been one of subjugation and is an inherent part of this "religion".

Whilst Christianity was spread by conquering other countries such as in South America by the Conquistadors, Christianity's inherent message is not one of conquest and subjugation.

To all the naive apologists on here, you really need to understand the real nature of what we are facing up to at present. I for one applaud the Pope, and no I'm not RC. It needs to be said loud and often what the true nature of Islam is. It is not a religion as way know it Jim. The only thing I could compare it too is an all embracing creed like Communism. It is almost the antithesis of what we understand in the West as religion. Yes, it is built on "faith" but it is also built on severe punishment for "sinners". There is no such thing as love thy neighbour, turn the other cheek and forgiveness at the heart of Islam.

In all things, the phrase "protect me from zealots" is very apt. Whether zealots for PC, Islam or anything else. Moderation in both thought and deed is a sign of the rounded person. We are facing very dangerous times.

red_rebel2 Posted on 15/9 8:03
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

"Whilst Christianity was spread by conquering other countries such as in South America by the Conquistadors, Christianity's inherent message is not one of conquest and subjugation."

Isn't it? Ask the indiginous populations of Africa, America - North and South - India, Australia about that.

The_Commisar Posted on 15/9 8:06
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

Thank you for your lecture.

"Moderation in both thought and deed is a sign of the rounded person. "

This from the man who despided Smac and all his works.

You missed the (obvious) incorrect spelling and failed to place the comments in there historical context ( ManuEl ) was in active dialogue with the west, especially the pope(s), he was also the only Byzantine monarch to visit England.

Do I HAVE to critique your posts EVERY time ?
3/10.
Needed better research, you may find Google useful, some of us don't need it.

SuperBokSupper Posted on 15/9 8:07
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

Its all a load of bo11ox.

Jesus wasnt really able to perform miracles (probably just a clever administrator).

Religion was created to keep men in awe.

And if anyone comes back saying the bible tells the truth, what about the dinosaurs?

eh?

The old Jehovas Witnesses never have a comeback to that little gem!

hailstorm Posted on 15/9 8:56
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

RR: Just as Communism is a distortion of Marxist philosophy, Marx was misquoted and used as a justification by Lenin and Stalin for their perverted form of Dictatorship by the Proletariat, so was Christianity used as justification by countless rulers.

But the Christian message is not one of conquest or of subjugation. It's actually a message of love for your fellow man. No, I am not a Christian by the accepted sense of the word either. However, Islam is a conquering creed by definition.

Commi: You clearly are of very limited intellectual abilities. Your understanding of concepts and abstract thoughts is abysmal. You have completely failed to understand the context of the quotation. Your comments about me are meaningless. Have me blocked or banned again when this gets too hot and belittling for you. You're just a complete prat. "Despided", I ask you!!

What might I ask has a visit to England got to do with this. I sure sign of a quick Google. Who are you trying to impress with your internet searching abilities? Which audience are trying to play to now?

By the way, my analysis of McClaren was and remains valid.

borobuddah Posted on 15/9 8:59
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

"I had a delicious supper with my wife, and merely said "That piece of Halbut was good enough for Jehovah"


"OOOh, he's said it again, stone the blasphemer"

Lincoln_Exile Posted on 15/9 9:02
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

"By the way, my analysis of McClaren was and remains valid"

In your opinion surely?

The_Commisar Posted on 15/9 9:07
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

You bite so well.

Shame your inaccurate in what you say and do

For the record...
Context
the pope was quoting an orthodox monarch requesting assistance against the Ottoman empire, this would be the monrach that the popes had criticised for cosying up to muslims in the past ergo, "if you sup with the devil you need a long spoon", the sub text is that we (the west) have ben cosying up to the muslim (orient) and now are reaping the rewards of this (terrorism as two cultures clash). Careful use of language by the pope who is fully aware of the nature of the relationship with the orthodox church and Islam, and the wests relationships.

Manuel II's visit to england, not that hard, from memory the illustration of his visit forms the front cover of the third of Sir Steven Runcimans Byzantine trilogy (which is on the second shelf in the back room, although it may now be on the 3rd shelf after my last reorganisation of the late Roman history section).

Although my understanding of the Paleogu dynasty is not that great, I prefer the Macedonian house and the Nicé Phorian monarchs.

Banning - no, you are wrong on this as so many subjects.
Stick to badly analysing football managers, it's what you do badly best.

(PS spelling, the day you warrant the effort to check my typing and spelling is the day I do a Slaven in Binns window)

Now, off to Google with you, go on.....

zaphod Posted on 15/9 9:20
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

I think Hailstorm was trying to make a valid point, which is that spreading Islam by violence is advocated by the Quran, whereas spreading Christianity by violence is against the commands of Jesus. Obviously the RC church did it at times, but this was not in obedience to the Bible.

SuperBokSupper Posted on 15/9 9:22
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

Christianity, has in the past promoted a Violent Expansionist idoelogy as well though.

Crusades anyone?

To get the force needed for this expedition, and further Cusades, Pope Urban 2nd pledged that you could save yourself from eternal damnation if you 'took the cross' and embarked on the crusade.

stub78 Posted on 15/9 9:30
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

Well I think the keystone is in the Louvre

red_rebel2 Posted on 15/9 9:48
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

Yes SBS but Hailstone will come back and say that that is just the interpretations of the holy men, the leaders.

But you can only use that logic if you accept that the bible/koran is literally the unimpeachable word of God, that it is somehow intellectually removed from its advocates and ideologues. But it isn't.

But it is the holy men who propagate, theorise and adapt the scriptures to suit the political neeeds of the time. The create the social and political shape of the religion. Which is excatly what the radical mullahs do now.

Sometimes we need to look at the Islamists through a prism of christianitys own history. All the things Islam is accused of, Christianity has been there and done that.

towz Posted on 15/9 9:52
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

At the end of the day all religions are devisive and breed intolerance* but if we didn't have religions man would find something else to kill each other over. the end

*except buddhism**

**actually if we were all Budhists the world would be a much nicer place

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hailstorm Posted on 15/9 9:57
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

Zaphod, so at least you get it.

Commi: Why argue? Why pick on the Pope's quotation to expound on something that is easily Googled. Why not challenge the real point about sensitivity of Muslims to anything remotely critical? Like I said, you are of poor intellectual ability. You cannot separate your own prejudices when challenging something that is written. You're really are a dissembler. Now just do one.

mm40 Posted on 15/9 10:01
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

The dinosaurs theory has never been totally proved as fossil evidence has been found thats shows men and dinosuars co-existed. There is also reference in the old testament that describes animals that are similiar to dinosaurs. The debate "evolution v creation" will go on and on, but one thing that has been proved by Louis Pasteur, a great scientist is life has to come from life, so were does that leave evolution?

towz Posted on 15/9 10:01
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

I think the Pope needs to get with the programme and buy some decent clothes. Nobody is gonna take him seriously when he wears daft little hats all the time. The Jews do it too and noone takes them seriously.

Lefty3668 Posted on 15/9 10:04
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

Why didn't the Pope say something less provocative, such as telling all mothers their baby was ugly.

SuperBokSupper Posted on 15/9 10:06
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

Ok then, what about the really old dinosaurs that breathed fire and that?

Until someone can prove there was a talking snake, greedy woman, flash floods with animals on boats, seas that parted, turning water into wine, walking on the sea, feedinf 5000 people with two fish and 5 loaves, miracles such as helping blind people to sea, someone coming back to life, im sticking with the likes of Darwin and scientific proof.

You couldnt make this stuff up!

Oh yeah, some one did.

capio Posted on 15/9 10:06
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

He should remind them of the support the Nazi’s gave to several middle-eastern states and they’ll forgive him.

Lincoln_Exile Posted on 15/9 10:07
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

"The Jews do it too and no-one takes them seriously"

The Nazi's did and look how that turned out.

towz Posted on 15/9 10:14
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

That's just my point. If the Jews had all dressed like punks or rockers they would have been alright.

--- Post edited by towz on 15/9 10:14 ---

hailstorm Posted on 15/9 10:18
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

RR: What you say is perfectly true. However, we are talking now about the 21st century not the middle ages. The fact that Christianity was used in the same perverted way as Marxist theory by idealogues and later rulers rather than theorists (philosophers and clerics) should give you a clue.

Unfortunately, I've spent some time in Muslims countries and have first hand knowledge of their beliefs and practices. These are not perversions of the Koran but are the Koran and its message. There is no interpretation for Muslims as to them the Koran is the Word of God. I suggest you read it even in an English translation.

Do you know what's happening in the world? Do you know what is happening in Thailand, in Mindanao, The Spice Islands, India for example? There is no such thing as a true and moderate Muslim.

Lefty3668 Posted on 15/9 10:21
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

Hailstorm, do you have a full head of hair?

hailstorm Posted on 15/9 10:29
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

Lefty: Probably more than you.

Lefty3668 Posted on 15/9 10:37
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

That wouldn't surprise me. You sound a bit touchy about it, perhaps you are thinning a bit on top?

Lefty3668 Posted on 15/9 10:46
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

Have I upset you?

boroborn Posted on 15/9 10:55
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

mm40 - where the hell did you get this little gem?

"he dinosaurs theory has never been totally proved as fossil evidence has been found thats shows men and dinosuars co-existed."

Dinosaurs (the big ones) died out 60 million years before anything looking like a human turned up.
Co-exist? Only in Hollywood movies.


"There is also reference in the old testament that describes animals that are similiar to dinosaurs."

Yes, they are called Crocodiles and Alligators.

"The debate "evolution v creation" will go on and on, but one thing that has been proved by Louis Pasteur, a great scientist is life has to come from life, so were does that leave evolution?"

There is only debate in those fooled by the lies of religion, evolution has happened, does happen and will continue to happen whether you believe it or not.

KENDAL Posted on 15/9 11:05
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

And we all know what Roman Catholic priests get up don't we.

red_rebel2 Posted on 15/9 11:05
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

Hailstorm:

I have no problem with a generalisation about how ideologies can be hijacked and used to advance particlaur political agenda. That is self evident and all I was doing was underlining the fact that our own culture has shown exactly the same tendency.

However I do have a problem to leap from theer to saying; "There is no such thing as a true and moderate Muslim."

This is of course a nonsense. It assumes that ordinary people in a third of the world are somehow inately decietful and violent, as if Islam were something in their DNA.

zaphod Posted on 15/9 11:06
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

The Crusades was not initially (or even ever) about a violent expansionist ideology. It started as an attempt to stem Muslim expansion, at the request of the Byzantine Emperor, but human greed took over. It was a stupid and frankly unChristian thing to do, but not really about expansionism. The start of the Crusades bears some resemblance to the present day situation, with Muslim massacres of Christian pilgrims to Jerusalem (terrorism?) inflaming the West.

The Popes of the time were only marginally Christian in any case.

joseph99 Posted on 15/9 11:08
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

There are some right fillistines on this thread.

I do think there is a touch of the pot and kettle but I have to agree that the voice if Islam is too powerful and in need o moderation. How this achieved is the $64MM question. Would like to know exactly how many terrorists are nurtured in Malaysia but google seems to be log-jammed at the moment (for some reason).

LoremIpsum Posted on 15/9 11:17
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

The last time I read the Bible, I remember reading about God telling all decent believers that it is their duty to put unbelievers to the sword, spoil their crops, ravish their women and, for some reason, to collect their foreskins.

Modern Christianity is based on a very selective reading of the Bible.

mm40 Posted on 15/9 11:19
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

boroborn - were did you get that figure from, that dinosaurs existed 60 million years ago. Who can predict that far back? It is an educated guess, like what most scientists do. If evolution is so credible were did we all appear from or was it the big bang theory.

No thats one you could not make up!

speckyget Posted on 15/9 11:23
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

In Khafji's defence (off my rocker me) I think the expression "There is no such thing as a true and moderate Muslim" was his way of saying that moderation and the tenets of Islam are incompatible, rather than a claim that muslims are inherently violent.

LoremIpsum Posted on 15/9 11:23
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

mm40 - surely, you're not being serious.

mm40 Posted on 15/9 11:33
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

I am serious that the big bang theory is flawed and I believe the creation over it evey time.

fexile Posted on 15/9 11:41
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

LoremIpsum - I think modern Christianity is actually based on the New Testament, for example Love they neighbour as thyself, turn the other cheek, the first shall be last and the last first, the meek inheriting the earth, easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle......

rather than the Old Testament vengeance, retribution stuff

LoremIpsum Posted on 15/9 11:44
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

Who created the Creator?

Why did He make such a vast universe? (We can see as far as 15 billion light-years away and, presumably, it's much bigger than that)

How long ago did creation take place? (Since we know, for a fact, that parts of the universe are at least 15 billion years old)

red_rebel2 Posted on 15/9 11:45
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

It is the absence of any coherent democratic political opposition to the US sponsored medieval dictatorships in the Middle east that has driven people to radical Islam, not anything inherent in the people.

Secular Islam need to be promoted but that rusn the risk of political independence in strategically important states.

Link: moderate muslims

towz Posted on 15/9 11:47
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

mn40 - I hope your sitting down, Godzilla was NOT a documentary, i repeat, NOT a documentary

LoremIpsum Posted on 15/9 11:47
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

fexile - I agree with you on that ... partly.

But modern Christianity still takes a lot of stuff from the Old Testament - viz: Creation, Adam and Eve, the Flood, the Devil (who is actually God's pal), the Ten Commandments ... etc, etc

This is highly-selective and ignores many things that are roughly equivalent to things in the Koran - such as the status of women, etc.

mm40 Posted on 15/9 11:51
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

towz- such a pity I always thought Godzilla was real.

green_beret20 Posted on 15/9 11:55
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

So that explains the last 60 years only Rebel?

Ive seen this argument before from you.

Communism didn't really fail because Stalin wasn't communist. The mere fact that a non-communist took power is a failure of communism.

--- Post edited by green_beret20 on 15/9 11:59 ---

borobadge Posted on 15/9 11:57
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

you dont get stuff this on the other 'rivals' boards...

top class and not a jawdee 'missimg link' in sight......

anyway, the pope was quoting another, so not actually his words...

ive no idea what the link is between dinosaurs and jehovas witness'....someone care to explain?..

i'm in the created camp by the way....scientists, like hippies should never be trusted..

fexile Posted on 15/9 11:58
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

But how many Christians literally believe in ADam and Eve and many of the Old Testament stories? I would think the majority don't.

As fas as the status of women is concerned, the New Testament (I'm coming over all Evangelical here) has passages which show an element of equality - "let him who hath no sin cast the first stone", Jesus ignoring all convention by frequenting outcasts of society, including prostitutes

towz Posted on 15/9 11:59
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

I would definitely have been a disciple, me. I'd have gone round stoned being nice to people. class

LoremIpsum Posted on 15/9 12:04
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

fexile - the number of Christians who believe elements of the Old Testament is irrelevant. Either Christianity is based on both books of the Bible or it is not.

If, for example, Christians use the Psalms as part of their religion, they are being selective about the bits from the Old Testament they choose to use.

This smacks of expedience. In short, Christianity is modifying itself to hopefully remain attractive to a better-educated and more reflective population. Simple as that, really.

borobadge Posted on 15/9 12:11
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

is 'modyfying' like 'evolution'..?

fexile Posted on 15/9 12:17
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

I Take your point - there is obviously a large element of selectivity, presumably because stories about turning people into pillars of salt or dividing the Red Sea into 2 are a little hard to believe.

But the point is that Christianity is based on and around one person whose life, message and actions (whether we believe them are not) were all about love, forgiveness, peace. And at that particular time, I doubt the population was better-educated and more reflective, given what happened to him.

LoremIpsum Posted on 15/9 12:22
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

Fair enough, fexile

As you might have gathered, I am an atheist. However, if there were a religion that I could accept, it would be one which exhorted its followers to be nice to each other.

It is a shame that so many people avow themselves Christian and yet cannot follow this simple tenet.

number9point5 Posted on 15/9 12:22
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

Perhaps the Muslims should remind the Catholic church of the support THEY gave to the Nazis during WW2!

Try reading a book called Infidels which is a histroy of Chritians vs Muslims. Both as bad as each other.

fexile Posted on 15/9 12:25
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

LoremIpsum - You know what? It's a pleasure having a reasoned discussion on here - thanks.

I don't often have time to post but from regular fleeting visits it seems on quiet Boro news days that most threads degenerate into abuse between various parties, so ta for expressing your and respecting other's ideas

LoremIpsum Posted on 15/9 12:27
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

fexile - you're welcome. And likewise.


Harborwave Posted on 15/9 13:07
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

Commi: Not to blame this time. You are nothing but a liar and fraud. Once again blocked from posting at the behest of Mr Innocence. However, I decided to re-register immediately this time.

RR: I hope people use the link you posted and check a few of the stories on Leaving Islam. In addition, secular and Islam is a contradiction in terms. Same as moderate and Islam.

Specky: At least you understand what I'm pointing to. You're right. I'm not stating that all Muslims are violent. What I'm saying is that Islam and the Koran leads to the kind of incidents that we are now experiencing.

Wahhabism, the Muslim Brotherhood and other sects and organisations within the Umma are espousing world domination and subjugation of all peoples based on what is clearly written in the Koran. Go to RR's link on Moderate Muslims if you're doubtful. Their experiences will prove that there is no such think as moderation and following the tenets of Islam.

red_rebel2 Posted on 15/9 13:21
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

You pull off more changes than the Tinkerman.

The_Commisar Posted on 15/9 13:25
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

OK, lets get this straight
a) I have not now or ever requested that you be banned, live with it, deal with it, in fact, if anyone on admin is about, can I sguuest that make clear statement on this ?
b) "Liar and a fraud", I'll exscuse that as it's just plain stupid.
Everyone has a right to be an asshole, you just abuse the privilege.
In previous posts you showed yourself to be a sexist.
On this one you showed yourself to be an islamaphobe capable of making sweeping and inacurate generalisations.
Go on, you may as well insult people of a different skin tone and you have the full house.
You can make a late bid to slag off people in wheelchairs whilst your at it.

I'd call you an imbecile but you have yet to reach those soaring mental heights.
And by the way;
it's "no such thing as moderate islam", not "think" , try to get your spelling right when your insulting about 30% of the worlds population.

Harborwave Posted on 15/9 13:27
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

RR: It is down to expediency. By they way did you read any of your own link. Makes interesting reading, don't you think.

Commi: Where are you now?

The_Commisar Posted on 15/9 13:28
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

I am in the National Library of Scotland, why you gonna "kick my ass" ?

Lefty3668 Posted on 15/9 13:33
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

30% of the worlds population, Commie? I think you are a bit high there. If you can't get it right now, how am I to rely on your figures for the middle ages?

Harborwave, is that a fancy new name for a combover?

Harborwave Posted on 15/9 13:37
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

Commi: You're a fraud. Read RR's thread. I'm not insulting anybody with you being an exception but that's deliberate. You're a complete up his own anus prat. You choose to challenge me everytime and when the going gets a bit, tough cop out and get one of your admin friends to ban me. It happens too often to be a coincidence.

Why don't you get on your bike (seriously are you a past it biker?) and go I find some caravanners to insult. Your out of your league here boy.

As I said your a liar and a fraud. Why do you do it? Are you physically challenged in some way? Why don't you get professional advise? It's sounds serious to me.

The_Commisar Posted on 15/9 13:37
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

Fair point lefty, I was working on the principle that Terry **ckwit would lump all heathens in with the mix.
You can't trust those Zoroastrians you know.

The_Commisar Posted on 15/9 13:39
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

You mean "advice", tsk, spelling.
Your coming nicely to the boil there old man.
Any other prejudices you want to get out of your system? I mean, left handed people, you just can't be sure.

Harborwave Posted on 15/9 13:46
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

Commi: I'm waiting for admin sonny boy. As I said you're a complete fraud. Which IT system are you screwing up at the moment. The number of times you ask advise on simple Office applications.

I bet your co-workers think you're a hoot.

The_Commisar Posted on 15/9 13:49
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

Oh so bitter.
I'm looking forward to admins reply as well.
I get on really well with my coworkers. Good bunch, serious academic types, not the sort to throw insults about muslims, women or diasbled people about. You'd hate it here.

and you have done it again "ADVICE", schoolboy error.

--- Post edited by The_Commisar on 15/9 13:50 ---

zaphod Posted on 15/9 13:58
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

There are about 1.2 billion Muslims, making them just under 20% of world population. It is perfectly feasible to be a moderate Muslim. I know lots of them. The Quran is capable of different interpretations and contradicts itself at times.

I don't understand the argument that political repression is the reason for Islamic fundamentalism, because it is pretty strong in, for example, Indonesia which is democratic and has Islamists in government. What about the UK, too?

Harborwave Posted on 15/9 14:01
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

Bitter about what may I ask? Anyway, as I've said before you're a complete waste of time. Sexist for saying you argued like a woman. Absolutley true, you are arguing like a woman not me being sexist. Same old ballacks from you sonny. Now you go OTT again and accuse me of hating Muslims. Same as the accusation of hating McClaren. It's called criticism in the real world. Not in your fantasy realm though.

To ask if you're physically challenged refers to your manhood, sonny. Not to whether you're handicapped. You obviously have a real chip on your shoulder. Somebody who is a free thinker and is willing to argue his points without googling for back up intimidates you. Now grow up sonny. Get your bike out and get your rocks off that way. You'll fail every time with me.

The_Commisar Posted on 15/9 14:02
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

The only religiens I can think of without thair fair share of nutters are
a) Buddhism (having said that one of the Tibetan dynasties had a real cob on a one point)
b) Ba'hai (?SP)
That said I can think of some groups popularly thought of as "militant" or aggresive where individual members are capable of great acts of kindness.
Sweepeing genralisations on this topic don't help.

Marcelwave
Thanks for your input and opinions, wrong in the main.
You need to watch your blood pressure. Nice to see your trying to dig yourself out of the hole you have dug re islam and now the disabled.
Havn't you got some googling to do ?
<real men don't google >

--- Post edited by The_Commisar on 15/9 14:05 ---

jason040270 Posted on 15/9 14:04
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

Warm around these parts.

See Muslims even cause war on an innocent football forum

Lefty3668 Posted on 15/9 14:12
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

Inage/hailstorm/harborwave/bobbycharlton

The serious point I was trying to make is this.

If I were to say to you, or just announce in general, that you were going bald would I be right?

I might be accurate, but would I be right to say it? You may well not be bothered, but how am I to know? For all I know you may be deeply hurt by this. Therefore I shouldn’t say it, should I? It is an action of mine that is at best inconsiderate of your feelings. If I say it knowing that you are touchy on the subject – perhaps you wear a wig – then that is stupid in the extreme and very probably malicious.

Being touchy on the subject you could react in one of two ways. You could go into a corner and cry. Or you could get angry and throw some insult back such as ‘I’ve got more hair than you’, thus taking us into an escalating conflict.

This brings me to your first post and the Pope. You say he is a clever man and you say he is right. I dispute both of those points, but at the very least he is not right to SAY what he did.

I apologise for any distress caused.

Harborwave Posted on 15/9 14:12
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

No Commi causes wars. I like his deliberate spelling mistake this time. Fishing for a bite sonny? Maybe my last post was a bit too close to the mark. He's backing off a bit now. Enjoy the rest of your meaningless day sonny. Grow up a bit and I might start taking you seriously. Toodle pip.

The_Commisar Posted on 15/9 14:16
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

awwwwww
not going to stay around so you can tell us what Admin have said about your bannings ?
Or have the mailed you and you don't like what been said ?
Boo Hoo
poor old Inage

green_beret20 Posted on 15/9 14:40
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

I fail to see the heresy in highlighting the relationship between religion and violence, two things which should never be associated.

Is Islam so weak it can't take this criticism?

corruptbiggins Posted on 15/9 14:40
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

commisar has not requested anyone involved with this thread to be banned.

Revol_Tees Posted on 15/9 14:40
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

I think this thread, or at least hailstorm's first post, illustrates the stupidity of the Pope's remarks. Surely he must have realised they would be seized upon by the bigots. It's ammunitition for them, and racial attacks have been known to show a marked increase after "inflammatory" speeches by important public figures.

red_rebel is spot on, there's not really much you can claim for Islam that you can't claim for Christianity, violent conquest or otherwise. To say that the Quran is unique in advocating violence (and the Christian bible isn't!) simply doesn't stand up, but again we're back to interpretation.

moxzin Posted on 15/9 14:48
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

"It is the absence of any coherent democratic political opposition to the US sponsored medieval dictatorships in the Middle east that has driven people to radical Islam, not anything inherent in the people.

Secular Islam need to be promoted but that rusn the risk of political independence in strategically important states."

Are you for real, r_r?

green_beret20 Posted on 15/9 14:50
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

Agreed but all the same its still his right to speak his opinion.

No religion is above the right to criticism, we're not a theocracy.
If we're getting to the point it is, then we do have a problem, from me for a start.

--- Post edited by green_beret20 on 15/9 14:51 ---

Nedkat Posted on 15/9 14:53
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

Tip toeing around ..

"Ooooh, yer can't say that, you'll upset the Muslims" .. !!!

Gets on my bleedin' tits !!!

Revol_Tees Posted on 15/9 14:54
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

Mox: if you don't the rebel, maybe you'll believe it from those real American heroes at the Pentagon's US Defence Science Board:

"The overwhelming majority voice their objections to what they see as one-sided support in favour of Israel and against Palestinian rights, and the long-standing, even increasing, support for what Muslims collectively see as tyrannies, most notably Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Pakistan and the Gulf states. Thus, when American public diplomacy talks about bringing democracy to Islamic societies, this is seen as no more than self-serving hypocrisy [...] US actions appear... to be motivated by ulterior motives, and deliberately controlled in order to best serve American national interests at the expense of truly Muslim self-determination."

It's not the first time I've posted it here - it's one of my favourites.

Link: full report (pdf)

corruptbiggins Posted on 15/9 15:02
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

by the way hailstorm/harborwave/whatever you want to call your self, you haven't actually been banned.

rob_fmttm Posted on 15/9 15:14
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

Can I underline that no one was/has been banned as a result of this thread. At no time did anyone request someone should be banned. BUT after reading the posts I think hailstorm/Harbourwave owes Commisar a big apology. He shouldn't be so quick to jump to (wrong) conclusions and reach for insults.

Harborwave Posted on 15/9 15:15
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

Biggins: You would say that wouldn't you. Why corrupt by the way?

To all the other PC brigade and apologists including Lefty. Go to RR's link and read what Muslims have to say about Islam, the Koran, criticism etc. Or maybe you think that the website is a sham.

It is the outcry from Muslims whenever anything critical is said anywhere that should also give you a clue to what this is all about. However, a lot of fools on here would rather believe conspiracy theories, Islam is a religion of peace and tolerance, and anything else that fits in with your delusions. You will quickly learn that what is happening now is only the start. It's going to get worse. Sorry if this unsettles you. The Pope is no fool and knew exactly the response that he would get.

Revol_Tees: And what has that got to do with the nature of Islam? Don't mix up the democracy thing with the terrorism and attacks on innocents that have being going on for a least the last 12 years.

moxzin Posted on 15/9 15:16
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

It stretches credulity slightly though when you blame US sponsored tyrannies one day, and the next day go out and march in opposition to removing the biggest one. It stretches it even more to be extolling the virtues of independence and secularism whilst opposing the current fight for both of those values.

(interesting to note too as an aside, that on that list of Middle East tyrannies, there isn't a name on there that would have been on there 3 years ago.)

Always remember this quote from David Aaronovitch, currently of the Times: "There is, on parts of the Left, a long and ignoble tradition of trashing democracy. This week one ultra-Left group was arguing for the slogan, “Troops out now! The main enemy is imperialism!” It is a slogan that seems, psychologically at least, to unite many diverse objectors to the war. But the groupuscule’s argument then went something like this. It understood that the insurgency wanted to oppress Kurds, suppress the Shia and “physically exterminate” trade unions and feminist groups. However, communists, it said, “recognise that an imperialist defeat would objectively open up possibilities for the working class, and we would therefore welcome it even if it came at the hands of reactionary anti-imperialists”. And sod the Iraqis."

The so-called left sometimes tries too hard to have it both ways. Against the support of Middle Eastern dictatorships, against the removal of them (or even the sanctioning of them) too. In favour of secularism and political independence but not if America is the conduit, even if it means alliance with extreme right-wing groups.

I saw in red_rebels post the height of irony, and I just wanted to check that this was so.

--- Post edited by moxzin on 15/9 15:17 ---

red_rebel2 Posted on 15/9 15:25
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

Your position pre-supposes that what America delivers IS democracy, freedom and secularism. This is in defiance of the reality.

In fact the US sponsors some of the most repressive regimes in the world and its imposition of its various puppets is to suit its own strategic aims rather than any egalitarian principle

History shows that whenever people are denied access to the political process they will take extreme measures. What underpins the rise of Islamism is the absence of normal political processes.

I woudl argue that supporting tyranny actively contribues to radicalism and that the US have supported a variety of tyrannies across the region, and that includes the one in Iraq that has since been removed in a convenient moment of 'principle'

Harborwave Posted on 15/9 15:29
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

Moxy: It's not just the irony in that. He puts up a link to a "Moderate Muslim" website and obviously has read none of the content and comments about Muslims that have turned their backs on Islam and their reasons for doing so.

Same ballacks from the prat Commi. Googles away to get a response that he thinks winds me up. If this issue wasn't so serious I'd probably have let it go. However smug it makes them feel in their own delusional little world, I'm prepared to fight my corner despite the complete old horseshit that's often written.

zaphod Posted on 15/9 15:29
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

The Bible does not advocate violence as a general principle. The Jewish state is instructed to take violent action in certain specific instances, mostly related to protection of the state. These instances do not have general application and are not usually interpreted as such. The medieval RC church and the Popes specifically banned the reading of the Bible in the vernacular because it would have undermined their power, including, I would surmise, justifications for religious war, Crusades etc.

The Quran specifically permits violence when other means of conversion have failed.

corruptbiggins Posted on 15/9 15:29
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

Maybe I would say that. It doesn't stop it being true however.

And anyway, what has my name got to do with anything? Don't bother answering, I don't really care about your opinion.

rob_fmttm Posted on 15/9 15:35
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

Yes but no one has asked for you to be banned and you weren't banned. Something might have gone wrong with your connection at your end (?) I don't want to accuse you of making things up but let me assure you nothing happened at this end. You are/were NOT BANNED under any NAME.

Harborwave Posted on 15/9 15:39
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

Biggins: Neither me about yours. Or your protestations. I could not post as Hailstorm. I re-registered and could immediately post as Harborwave. I previously have been blocked (not banned) when posting as Khafji and Inage all during discussions!!! with the prize prat Commi.

You tell me what is the rational explanation. I know that my IP was bl;ocked for a long time. Thje first time this happened I sent an email to Rob Nicholls. The second time I couldn't be bothered.

You are hardly likely to admit guilt on here after what I said are you? Ergo, you along with friend Commi have no credibility. Does that adquately explain my position or is there something illogical or paranoid in it?

corruptbiggins Posted on 15/9 15:42
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

Paranoid? Certainly.

I'm not the only one saying it. I don't know if you can see past your ego, but rob has also said the same things. You're free to believe what you want to believe, I'm happy in knowing that what I've been saying is true.

The_Commisar Posted on 15/9 15:42
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

I guessed when this character was shown up he'd come out with the "well you would say that wouldn't you" defence.
Rob, not bothered if I get an apology ot not. It would be valueless considering it's point of origin. But cheers for clarifying the issue.
I love the way that old Inage thinks that if someone knows something, they have to Google it. It's quite refreshing in a way.

<looks like he's about to explode with self rightous indignation from his last post, is this what would happen if captain mainwaring got access to the internet ?)

--- Post edited by The_Commisar on 15/9 15:46 ---

Harborwave Posted on 15/9 15:49
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

So this is a case for the X-files is it? Friend Commi blocks my access by thought transference. I've heard everything now.

rob_fmttm Posted on 15/9 15:49
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

I don't know whether I want you on here anymore. You can't stop making accusations and causing situations.

corruptbiggins Posted on 15/9 15:51
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

I could try your hailstorm account to see if it is working, but I would need your password for that. But then you would just say that I unbanned it to prove you wrong.

So it's pointless me even trying.

I'll leave you to whatever it is you do.

--- Post edited by corruptbiggins on 15/9 15:52 ---

Harborwave Posted on 15/9 15:58
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

Same old clique. Different day.

The_Commisar Posted on 15/9 15:59
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

.

Link: Whoa ....................there he goes !

red_rebel2 Posted on 15/9 16:08
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

I had couldn't post under my old name and had to reregister with an added digit. It has happened to a few people. No one knows why but it isn't anything sinister

Harborwave Posted on 15/9 16:08
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

Biggins: I tried to log in as Hailstorm after re-registering and logging in as Harborwave from my present temporary address and using another of my email accounts. That proves that Hailstorm was blocked. I'd tried to log in as Hailstorm about five times before that.

If this was the first time, I would believe it. The second time, suspicious but maybe just coincidence. But the third time and each time whilst in "discussion" with Commi is beyond credibilty. In about five years since registering first as Khafji, then as Inage, then as Hailstorm and now as Harborwave, I have been prevented from posting on three separate occasions. The circumstances have been the same each time although from different locations.

Commi has liked to take issue with me changing user names. Why?

RR: Didn't see your last post but I think the above more than clarifies my position.

--- Post edited by Harborwave on 15/9 16:14 ---

LoremIpsum Posted on 15/9 16:13
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

Revol_Tees - that report, from the Pentagon's US Defence Science Board, is well-worth reading. Thank you for posting it

It is refreshing to see that Americans who have a rational view of world affairs do actually exist. I have long been convinced that they do not.

Not that the report will change anything, of course.

corruptbiggins Posted on 15/9 16:19
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

No, I think it infact proves that the Rivals message board system is faulty and it has been for a quite a while.

Or that Rivals themselves have banned you globally. One way to check that is by trying to post with that name on another board.

--- Post edited by corruptbiggins on 15/9 16:20 ---

Lefty3668 Posted on 15/9 16:29
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

Look here wiggy, I was only having a bit of fun. There was no malicious intent to my posts, just a bit of gentle teasing and an obscure way to get a point across. A point I think you've proved. I apologised because I could tell I got your back up.

You then use the term PC and apologist as if it is a bad thing. Both are merely demonstrations of consideration for others feelings. I apologised to you, can you not have the manners to accept it graciously.

Rob, don’t ban Harborwave. I really enjoy his contributions and Commie can look after himself. My favourite ever thread on here was their fabulous argument on the Muslim/Christian populations of the middle ages. They are like kicking out time arguments I have at the pub.

For what it’s worth Inage, I don’t for one minute think Commie has tried to get you banned.

Revol - good report that.

Oooh, I brought up a ton!

--- Post edited by Lefty3668 on 15/9 16:32 ---

zaphod Posted on 15/9 16:34
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

Actually I think it proves that you don't need religion or ideology to start wars. Human nature does it without assistance, even if it's only a cyberwar.

redz69 Posted on 15/9 16:39
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

I am going to complain to the Pope that I dont think its on when people advertise their businesses in the local papers and add images of "the fish" to their adverts. I would like to see the Pope task out the Holy Guard, who will swoop down on these traders with great vengence and furious anger, and spark them out.

--- Post edited by redz69 on 15/9 16:41 ---

littlejimmy Posted on 15/9 16:42
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

For once, I agree with zaphod 100%. It annoys me when people blame religion for wars, because at the end of the day, organised religion is a human invention (that's not to say that God himself is), where disparate people have taken different interpretations of the same message and used them as an excuse to fight.

speckyget Posted on 15/9 16:50
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

I too must weigh in on behalf of Nadger. Not only does he go above and beyond in his quest to provide top notch entertainment, he writes in a most singular vernacular style just not seen elsewhere. It's like he's posting from a distant planet, and has learned English from a combination of recently arrived broadcasts of The Clitheroe Kid and captured spacemen.

Whatever, it's a precious thing.

Revol_Tees Posted on 15/9 16:54
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

zaphod: "The Bible does not advocate violence as a general principle." / "The Quran specifically permits violence when other means of conversion have failed."

The Bible is one of the most violent books in history. There were passages, I believe, when Jesus himself specifically permitted violence. However, if these do not amount to a "general principle" fair enough. But you cannot subsequently point to similar statements in the Quran, no matter how specific they are, and claim that they are any more objectively valid than those you dismiss in the New Testament. Whatever the Quran might say about violence, whether it's a "general principle" is a matter for Muslims to decide. In the 21st century, it simply isn't - at least not for most.

Lefty3668 Posted on 15/9 17:02
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

Zaphod, that was my point.

swordtrombonefish Posted on 15/9 17:13
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

Who gives a fook:

(a) what the Pope says
(b) What muslims think of what the pope says

zaphod Posted on 15/9 17:27
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

Revol_Tees, there is no advocacy of violence in the New Testament at all. Have you actually read it?

Even the Old Testament has only a limited amount of violence, mainly around the settlement of Canaan and fighting neighbouring tribes to establish themselves.

Lefty3668 Posted on 15/9 17:32
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

I'm not up to the New Testament Zaphod, but I can well buy that there is no advocacy of violence in it.

However I have read about the first third of the Old Testament and I've got to say it is one of the most appallingly violent books I have ever read. It's like a Tarantino script.

Revol_Tees Posted on 15/9 17:43
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

I haven't read it fully, although I read large chunks of it in my youth. I'm no longer a Christian so I would hope that I don't read it through the same double-standard, rose-tinted spectacles anymore. Removed from its context, this is from a battered old King James edition, given to me by my great grandmother:

"But whoever shall deny me before men, him I will also deny before my Father which is in heaven. Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace but a sword. For I am come to set man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law." (Matthew 10:34-35)

Deadly in the wrong hands, I'm sure you'll agree. Maybe if Jesus had lived in the 21st century he would've used a grenade thrower as a metaphor and not a sword.

moxzin Posted on 15/9 17:48
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

Good post that one Revol. That passage came to mind when I read your post of 16:54. I was genuinely taken aback by that verse when I read the New Testament - as well as Jesus's false prophecy of course.

littlejimmy Posted on 15/9 17:52
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

Nah, bad ass JC would have a crown of burberry and would have a flick-knife.

Revol_Tees Posted on 15/9 17:52
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

mox - this is another starling one: "But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me." (Luke 19: 27)

I'm not having a go at Christianity though. My point is that, despite these quotes, I wouldn't argue that the Bible or Christianity is inherently violent. Nor if there were thousands of similar quotes would I argue that the condoning of violence was a "general principle" of the Bible. It's a matter of interpretation primarily for Christians. These quotes can mean anything or nothing when other factors are considered.

Harborwave Posted on 15/9 18:05
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

Right I'm out of here now. To those that don't get what this was about I'm sorry. Maybe ignorance is bliss.

Lefty: I'm never offended nor do I take things personally so you had no need to apologise. However, I do get irate at a certain person's misrepresenations of what I write and his clear attempts at belittlement.

I'm not unique in questioning Muslims inability to accept criticism. The whole debate at present is about their defensive position and victim mentality. Knowledge about this subject is limited and few people have any idea what's going on in the world.

My accusation about Commi may or may not have been warranted. I have no way of knowing and I have explained my position and the history of my name changes. The inability to post under my original user names was fact. The circumstances described by me were true. In my second post on this thread, I mentioned to Commi about getting me banned and blocked and what happens, I can't post. This had happened twice previously. What would a reasonable person think about this?

For now I accept what Rob and Biggins say and as such apologise to Commi if I've made false accusations. Only he knows the truth.

Lefty3668 Posted on 15/9 18:13
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

Well said, harborwave.

joseph99 Posted on 15/9 18:39
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

"Let him who is without sin cast the first stone"

I think Hailstorm also deserves an apology as he was not the first to be on the receiving end of that first stone. Many agree with the underlying message in the opening thread. If Rob and admin adopt a "some people are more equal than others" attitude it does feed the accusation of a clique or even favouritism.

The_Commisar Posted on 16/9 7:58
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

HW
a) I did not ask you to be banned in any way shape ot form.
b) I do not google things on Byzantine history. I have spent 20 years reading on that area.
Your apology is accepted.

boro_exile99 Posted on 16/9 8:33
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

I havn't read through the entire contents so this point may have already been made. What I wonder are the real motives of the Pope. He is not naive or stupid. If he were he would not be Pope. To me the content of the message is less important then his reasons for it.

Mind you, there is at least one right wing "Christian" leader who is intellectually challenged...

Incidentally, am I the only one who can see a resemblance between the current pope and the emperor in Empire Strikes back.

Oh No! does that mean we "christians" are actually the "dark side"?


The_Commisar Posted on 16/9 8:41
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

The entire speach is on the BBC site, basicly the pope is talking aboyt the difference between the greek ideal (that gos is "reasonable") and the islamic view that god is beyond everything.
Therefore that it is "unreasonable" to convert someone by force is a greek view (greek in the sense that greek philosophy underpins a lot of modern western thought) where as islam rejects this and it is simply the will of god that counts.
It's a very heavy speach aimed at am academic audience.

Example
This new understanding of God is accompanied by a kind of enlightenment, which finds stark expression in the mockery of gods who are merely the work of human hands (cf. Ps 115). Thus, despite the bitter conflict with those Hellenistic rulers who sought to accommodate it forcibly to the customs and idolatrous cult of the Greeks, biblical faith, in the Hellenistic period, encountered the best of Greek thought at a deep level, resulting in a mutual enrichment evident especially in the later wisdom literature.


His speach has been taken WAY out of context.

RedRagg Posted on 16/9 8:55
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

Have to say I enjoyed all that........some bloody clever peeps on here. I too would like to think that this type of argument/counter argument is allowed to flourish. Although the name calling, spelling mistake accusations etc, did belittle it somewhat.......but hey my Dad is bigger than your Dad.

As a new poster/reader I too have an impression that there is a definite clique, but maybe I am just paranoid......just ask Coluka!!

Now, football anyone???!!!

YodaTheCoder Posted on 16/9 9:47
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

I don't think there is anything that a person could say regarding my beliefs that would make me gather a group of like minded individuals and burn that person in effigy.

I like to think that is because I am a reasonable individual who respects the right of others to challenge my beliefs and express their opinions. Religious zealots will probably say that it's because I have no "faith" and that I will surely burn in hell for all eternity.

I'm atheist. I put my faith in science. When I finish my time machine I shall travel back to the time when the bible(s) were being made up and sneakily switch them for copies of Harry Potter books. They're no more plausible than most religious stories but at least they satisfy my Dungeons and Dragons type needs.

--- Post edited by YodaTheCoder on 16/9 9:48 ---

joseph99 Posted on 16/9 9:51
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

As an open agnostic with a RC christening under my belt, with the gathering of years that include an inceasing number of cultutural experiences my view on religion is bordering on cynical. I am in the fortunate postion (some might say unfortunate) to travel to many countries in my profession and have made many friends with muslims, Sikhs, Hindus and buddhists. Attempting to widen the debate I would add that I am personally uncomfortable with most religions, the exception being buddhism. Firstly, christianity in this country is weak. The motives of the church is quite simple - to generate cash to maintain the upkeep of the church. Knocking church-goers is out of order as many people use the church for different reasons - not all of it is to pray to a god, I reckon in a lot of cases it is more spiritual. My experience of born-again christians is not good. In fact, I have come across many in my job and to generalise (if I may) have to say that they are the most self-centred, egotistical people that I have ever met; there are no exceptions for me. (including Glen Hoddle).

I have found islamic countries to be the least welcoming and most aggressive as well as being the most hypocritical. There is definetley an attitude that suggests that it is everyone else's fault and everyone is against them. For instance, a faction in Indonesia blamed the new government for the latest spell of earthquakes. I have never felt any warmth in any mosque.

I find the sikhs/hindus the most serious about their religion. I have also found them to be very gentle and most accomadating about other cultures.

If I was to convert to a religion it would Buddhism. I have visited a number of working temples (not touristy ones) and felt a definite connection. I embrace the idea that there are many gods and that you pray to the buddha that is specific to your temple of worship. The buddha is someone that has been able to demonstrate extreme philantrophy in his lifetime. By analogy, if we apply buddhism on Teesside it will be Sir Steve Gibson that would be enshrined in gold leaf in a temple built near the riverside stadium.

The_Commisar Posted on 16/9 9:53
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

J99
Yoda
try reading up on Baa'hai. Very interesting belief system.

zaphod Posted on 16/9 9:56
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

The passage in Luke 19 is part of the parable of the talents. It is describing the actions of a fictional king. It is not giving instructions to kill enemies.

The passage in Matthew 10 is telling the disciples not to expect a good time, that they will be hated and persecuted even by their own families. A few verses before the ones quoted, Jesus says: "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell." It's all about preparing them for what is to come, so they wouldn't think the wheels had come off. The disciples understood what it meant and did not engage in any violence at all. Instead, as predicted, they were persecuted and sometimes killed.

Lefty, there isn't much violence in Genesis. As I said, it's the settlement of Canaan in Exodus, Joshua and Judges where the violence occurs, some but not all of it sanctioned by God.

YodaTheCoder Posted on 16/9 10:04
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

I prefer the passage in Harry 1 that says you can defeat your enemies by transporting them into a cage containing a big snake.

swordtrombonefish Posted on 16/9 10:15
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

A Long Time Ago in a Galaxy Far, Far Away.........

Nellmad Posted on 16/9 10:25
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

Take a look back in history,religion is the cause of all wars. My religion is football, even that caused wars. At least it does in our house.

--- Post edited by Nellmad on 16/9 10:26 ---

Boro_Owl Posted on 16/9 10:38
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

"It is plainly obvious that Islam was spread by the sword to anybody who is aware of the facts. Its message has always been one of subjugation and is an inherent part of this "religion"."

And Christianity isnt doing this right now. War in Iraq? Christian Churches built? All religions start wars you muppet.

*cough* Crusades *cough*.

littlejimmy Posted on 16/9 10:56
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

Wrong. People start wars, using religion as an excuse.

zaphod Posted on 16/9 11:48
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

There haven't actually been that many overtly religious wars if you check through history. Most wars are about power and wealth.

Revol_Tees Posted on 16/9 11:59
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

zaphod: thank you for the explanation of the aforementioned quotes, but if you think any self-respecting religious fundamentalist or crusader is going to approach those passages and come away with the same interpretation as yourself, it's naive in the extreme. Same applies to the Quran and any other religious text - meaning flows from one circumstance to another and isn't fixed in the manuscript of an ancient book. One man's warning of the dangers ahead is another man's "instruction" to kill.

Having read these comments by the Pope, and seen the reaction, I think it's a PR disaster for all concerned. Surely he must have known that this would be like pouring petrol on a bombfire. This could easily be read as another great endorsement of the "Clash of Civilisations" argument and the radical Islamists are probably rubbing their hands with glee right now.

boro_bliss Posted on 16/9 12:03
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

littlejimmy Posted on 16/9 10:56
re: The Pope upsets Muslims
Wrong. People start wars, using religion as an excuse.

Exactly. Totally agree. Religion ruins everything.
"Oh God told me that we should fight this or that country".
Makes me sick. A world without religion at all would be a better world.

trodbitch Posted on 16/9 12:07
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

Bliss, you've missed jimmy's point. Religion isn't the problem, people using it are. To then say that religion ruins everything and a world without religion would make it better is just not right.

PumpingGnome Posted on 16/9 12:09
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

Wot? No Moxy?

boro_bliss Posted on 16/9 12:10
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

How many wars have been, because of religion?
How many wars have been between catholics and protestants?
And the next war will unfortunately be between the christian and the muslim world.
It makes me sick.

littlejimmy Posted on 16/9 14:11
re: The Pope upsets Muslims

Religion would be great if it wasn't for people. As Zaphod and RT seem to be saying, it's all about interpretation and context. Every single person on this planet has his own viewpoint, and his own interpretation of what he sees and feels. So whenever people get involved, there are bound to be disagreements and splits. That's where Buddhism comes into its own, because it understands this, and questions what reality itself actually is, because reality is such a subjective entity.