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Wilkosperm Posted on 6/10 10:54
Straw - right on muslim women's veils

They create a distinct separate physical barrier to integration. If integration is to happen we need to get rid of distinct cultural barriers to this integration.

Some_Strange_Gadgie Posted on 6/10 10:57
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

Muslims whinging
People whinging about Muslims
People whinging about people whinging about Muslims

Am I the only one who is sick to death of people talking about Muslims?

DrBuck Posted on 6/10 10:57
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

Ballhocks. What is this integration you talk about?

speckyget Posted on 6/10 10:58
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

Suspect there are plenty of Muslims who feel the same.

Wilkosperm Posted on 6/10 10:59
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

I am sick of talking about them, but I have always disliked the veils and so felt compelled to post on the topic. if people dont integrate into the British way of life then we will have a full blown clash of civilisations in this country.

SmogontheThames Posted on 6/10 11:02
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

How can you integrate with people, who's religeous rules forbid them to look directly or talk to anybody who is not there husband

bandito Posted on 6/10 11:05
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

if they cant handle their religion they should fc uk off. Were in britain.

red_rebel2 Posted on 6/10 11:15
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

Until moslems go out and get bladdered on two gallons, direct semi-literate foul mouthed abuse at strangers, puke in the pizza shop and start fights over taxis at chucking out time then they will never have fully integrated into our culture.

DrBuck Posted on 6/10 11:15
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

Which means what exactly Bandy?

bandito Posted on 6/10 11:16
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

it means they arent prepared to sacrifice their beliefs to fit into our culture, althought to be honest the british culture has disappeared. We dont even have an identity anymore.

Wilkosperm Posted on 6/10 11:17
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

That is one positive thing to be said about eastern european immigration in that at least they share similarish religious beliefs and will integrate eventually more successfully.

bandito Posted on 6/10 11:18
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

yes, and they are willing to graft their arses off with the minimum amount of fuss

the_broken_fridge Posted on 6/10 11:19
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

I destest the eastern europeans. coming here, buying up all the bargain lines from Sainsburys before I have a chance to get cartons of soup for 20p and a roast chicken for 50p. I am outraged. Those bargains should be for the brits!

boroboy75 Posted on 6/10 11:19
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

red_rebel, if it wasn't for people who 'get bladdered on two gallons, direct semi-literate foul mouthed abuse at strangers, puke in the pizza shop and start fights over taxis at chucking out time' they'd have no-one to ride in their taxis, or sell heroin to.

XXLshirts_fit_all Posted on 6/10 11:23
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

he was ok having his opinion and possibly ok expressing it although ill advised. the barrier that the veil sets up is in the head of people who are scared of people with different beliefs to their own. how does making some one or asking them not to wear a veil help them intergrate into society. i feel uncomfortable with men who wear skirts biut wouldnt ask them to remove them (living in scotland i see plenty) who has any right to dictate what some one should wear as long as its not offensive. and i honestly cant see how a veil is that!
RR2, that is the problem with this country, we want people to act like the rest of us but frankly i am more ashamed of how many of the "superior British" population act, from spawning kids like rabbits to fighting and abusing inocent people in the street

bandito Posted on 6/10 11:25
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

XXXL: you should emigrate mate if things are that bad. You'd love it in the middle east

KENDAL Posted on 6/10 11:29
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

XXL,
When our women go to an Arab country they're expected to cover themselves up. Not allowed to wear a dress or skirt(only trousers)and the arms must be covered up.
We abide by their beliefs so they should do the same when in this country.

Wilkosperm Posted on 6/10 11:30
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

XXL - I cant believe that you would feel comfortable if a woman, who has probably been told to wear the full veil, stood next to you at a bus stop. I doubt whether you would strike up a conversation.It is a stone age custom and is not even mentioned in the Koran. It represents everything that a modern society should not be ie dictated by repressive beliefs.

GillZean Posted on 6/10 11:30
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

When the Brits go abroad, we are castigated for not respecting local cultures and mores.

However, when outsiders come here we have to bend over backwards and accept their non-integration. Why don't they accept our liberal ways, as that is why most of them came here in the first place? If they don't, ....fill in the rest yourself.

I'm sure Jack Straw would feel equally uncomfortable talking to a chav in a balaclava and hoodie, and would there be any fuss if he told them to take it off?

Buddy Posted on 6/10 11:33
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

My view is that living your life and having your appearance dictated by the teachings of someone interpreting the teachings of someone else who claimed to have got it directly from a deity is bordering on the bonkers.

Having said that, being bonkers is no disqualification to living in this country, and I've never had a problem communicating with someone through a veil - they tend to be quite sound-permeable in my experience.

KENDAL Posted on 6/10 11:35
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

GillZean, I couldn't agree more.

Wilkosperm Posted on 6/10 11:35
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

What about chavs being banned from wearing hoodies in shopping centres?? I dont remember a similar fuss being created by them?

GillZean Posted on 6/10 11:38
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

Wilko,

Don't think Cameron had hugged enough hoodies by then.
Apparently he's going to put loads of them on his all-chav shortlists for safe Tory seats.

Wilkosperm Posted on 6/10 11:39
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

The first chav constituency - the Metro Centre.

KENDAL Posted on 6/10 11:42
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

Remember, according to Cameron the hoodies are a mis-understood breed.

jayno Posted on 6/10 11:43
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

are muslem women allowed to keep their veils on when coming through ports and airports,no.so what is the problem of taking it off in private,when having a one on one conversation with her local mp.

KENDAL Posted on 6/10 11:43
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

Thers plenty of bars that ban baseball caps, sleeveless shirts.

Wilkosperm Posted on 6/10 11:44
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

I wore a hoodie precisely because someone told me I couldnt. I wonder if that will happen in the Muslim community.
Noone seems to disagree with the consensus that Jack Straw has at last said something sensible.

Wilkosperm Posted on 6/10 11:45
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

jayno - or even when they go in a bank.

GillZean Posted on 6/10 11:45
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

I know a few lasses who would benefit from wearing one.

Rich_Boro Posted on 6/10 11:46
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

The whole issue is getting idculous. The Jack Straw story should not even be news worthy. I almost get he feeling that there is a news agenda to stir up racial tension.
With regard to the veil, I think it is intimidating; disguising your identity- almonst reminds me f the ballaclavas from back in the days of the IRA- they just look sinister.
The matter seems to come down to tolerance- they tolerate nothing, and we seem to be getting walked over in every debate.

To be frank, I think their religion and views are hundreds of years behind ours, their methods are barbaric no matter what anyone says and we are having views pushed onto us which would have been fitting in a society several hundred years ago. To quote someone else from a few months ago on the board- I think that the religion is in a stage as Christianity as many hundreds of years ago with no tolerance- it seems to work in cycles.

GillZean Posted on 6/10 11:53
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

I'm glad you said that, Rich, not me, but very perceptive.

littlejimmy Posted on 6/10 11:57
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

KENDAL says:
"When our women go to an Arab country they're expected to cover themselves up. Not allowed to wear a dress or skirt(only trousers)and the arms must be covered up."

GillZean says:
"When the Brits go abroad, we are castigated for not respecting local cultures and mores."

These statements, particularly the first one, are utter nonsense. If you came and spent any time in the United Arab Emirates you would learn the truth. We live in a Muslim Arab country here, and at the moment it is the holiest of holy months. Muslims are fasting all day and praying even harder than usual. However, if you go to any public place, like a shopping mall or a beach, you will see western women dressed as they dress at home, and even Eastern European women dressed in the skimpiest garments you can imagine. You can get alcohol here (after 7pm during Ramadan in bars, but licenced alcohol stores are still open). You can get pork products here.

The intesting thing is that they are having a debate in the national tabloid papers about people not respecting the countries they are visitors to by dressing inappropriately during Ramadan. The other side of the coin, I suppose. Nothing will change though, because this country is moving more and more to a liberal state. Saudi Arabia is a completely different kettle of fish, mind, and I wouldn't go there for all the tea in China.

As for veil-wearing, I still think it's a strange sight, and have tried sneakily watching how they manage to eat and drink in restaurants, but then I don't pretend to fully understand why they do wear them. As far as I can tell and from what I've learned, it's down to personal choice. I've seen a real range of veil styles from fully-covered to metal-framed contraptions to nothing at all. All of them wear fashionable clothes underneath, and they are the biggest shoppers around. I've also seen Emirati women in t-shirts and jeans.

Rich_Boro Posted on 6/10 12:05
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

I just think there is give and take in these issues.
Not saying the veil is wrong (I personally am made uncomfortable by it- I guess in the same way anyone hiding their identity does).
I just think it would be polite to appreciate the thoughts of (in this case) the person you are meeting with instead of (Jack Straw) having to do exactly what he does not want.
I uess what I am saing is, there's a meeting point where both sides give 50/50 and at the moment it appears to be 90/10.

XXLshirts_fit_all Posted on 6/10 12:06
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

wilko sperm, why cant you belive that i would feel comfortable, just because you would be scared to stand next to a woman in a head dress at the bus stop doesnt mean we are all so petty. this argument isnt about getting them tio stop wearing head dresses full stop, is it? and why would i emigrate, i may be ashamed of the drunken louts claiming that they are the epitomy of britishness. doesnt mean i want to leave the country. but i can see why others who come to this country dont want to embrace those values. the fact that we should be a tollerant country means that this place should be a better place to live than those that force their views on people visiting. 2 wrongs dont make a right

boroboy75 Posted on 6/10 12:08
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

jimmy, isn't the UAE a relatively young country, though?
Hardly a fair yardstick.

littlejimmy Posted on 6/10 12:10
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

Spot on, XXL. And do what bandito suggests, because people who think like him are taking the country down the swanee. Tolerance is a two-way street. Some are more willing to walk down it than others.

Rich_Boro Posted on 6/10 12:13
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

Little Jimmy- tolerance is a two way street.
Would you not say that we are travelling a lot further to meet than Muslims?

GillZean Posted on 6/10 12:14
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

Walking all the way to the Arabian Gulf is a long way though, jimmy

Wilkosperm Posted on 6/10 12:15
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

xx - ok have you ever struck up a conversation with a muslim woman wearing a veil? How would you know what conversation was appropriate as you couldnt see her face? Would you want a situation in the boro where all the women who lived in a particular areas wore the veil? The next step would be the closure of churches etc that were not islamic. Then pubs, because they would be offensive. The buck has to stop somewhere.
All I think people want is a sense of fairness and equality.

GillZean Posted on 6/10 12:19
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

My mate's sisters used to wear them every now and them.

And if you'd ever seen them, you'd know why- for once, this isn't a cheap jibe

Any conversation was appropriate, but then he fell out with them for being witches, and consequently I've not spoken to them for about 10 years.

scuzzmonster Posted on 6/10 12:22
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

'All I think people want is a sense of fairness and equality.'

Definitely. If I wore a veil in a bank, I'd probably get shot.

littlejimmy Posted on 6/10 12:22
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

OK, BB, it's a young country (used to be a British protectorate), but there are other countries around here that are liberalising all the time, such as Qatar and Oman. Some are becoming switched on to the idea that the oil won't last forever, so it's in their interests to diversify and open up. The point is, what KENDAL said is factually incorrect.

Saudi is, like I said, a different kettle of fish, and really are stuck in the Middle Ages, ruled by a bunch of fundamentalists (whilst being backed by the USA - go figure) with other even worse fundamentalists wanting to get rid of them. There was a story about a girl's school that burned down a few months or a year ago, and the religious police wouldn't let the firemen enter the school because it was night-time and the girls were dressed for bed (i.e. uncovered). They all died. But for all their pious self-righteousness (!), you still find Saudi men coming here in their droves to drink in the bars and er....requisition the services of a lady, shall we say. Hypocrisy at its worst.

speckyget Posted on 6/10 12:22
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

'All I think people want is a sense of fairness and equality.'

Why does some woman's headgear impinge upon either?


You are perfectly entitled to wear the same kit if you choose - if you were denied that right you might have a case.

Wilkosperm Posted on 6/10 12:29
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

You must not have read the discussion about hoodies. Hoodies have been banned in various shopping centres throughout the land. No real fuss was made. People accepted it. Veils, as I said at the start, are a physical representation of a distinctly different identity that prevents full integration into what is meant to be a multicultural society. If we are to understand the muslim faith, of which the wearing of veils isnt actually a part, then you need to get rid of physical items that differentiate between people.

speckyget Posted on 6/10 12:33
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

Well, let's have the conversation after the first muslim woman uses the veil in order to nab someone's mobile phone in a shopping centre.

Wilkosperm Posted on 6/10 12:37
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

Or perhaps more pertinently blow themselves up in a suicide attack.

littlejimmy Posted on 6/10 12:38
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

*awaits the inevitable "well I've never seen a hoodie carry out a suicide bombing" retort*

speckyget Posted on 6/10 12:38
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

Yup, banning veils will save us all from that - good point.

Wilkosperm Posted on 6/10 12:40
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

But encouraging the muslim community to stop wearing them would ease tensions and suspicions. You may not like it, but that is the reality.

ben_mfc Posted on 6/10 12:41
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

If they want to be british, claim to be british then they should start acting british and take those rediculous outfits off.

If they don't want to be british and want to do there own thing, then they know where the airport is.

speckyget Posted on 6/10 12:42
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

What form do you suggest this 'encouragement' should take?

Wilkosperm Posted on 6/10 12:43
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

Asking them to do so, like Straw said.
Hoodies remember were simply banned in shopping centres. If they tried to do the same to veils, it would be described as 'racist'.
Its the easiest way of trying to stem a debate.

GillZean Posted on 6/10 12:43
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

jimmy won't be happy until we have a non-white, disabled, fundamentalist, transsexual, communist, schizophrenic despot running the ship.

Then his guilt will start to ease.

littlejimmy Posted on 6/10 12:44
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

I'm not taking any credit for that. The retort to that retort is: Did the 7/7 bombers or the 9/11 hijackers wear traditional Arab/Muslim dress? Is it acceptable to suspect/stereotype someone because of their appearance. That goes for hoodies / chavs / goths / muslims / power-dressing women / football fans....
Of course, we all say it ain't. But we all do it to varying degrees.

Wilkosperm:
"Veils, as I said at the start, are a physical representation of a distinctly different identity that prevents full integration into what is meant to be a multicultural society."

I'm sorry, but why would they prevent full integration, especially in what you called a Multicultural society? Does tolerance only work one way? Is there a British dress code that everyone should adhere to?

Wilkosperm Posted on 6/10 12:47
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

No, but I know one thing, that it is not the veil.
That is the national dress of an islamic minority.
It is a stoneage custom and I find it hard to understand how anyone can defend it.

DrBuck Posted on 6/10 12:47
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

We give people the oppotunity to live in this country and make a better life for themselves, usually to have a better standard of living, with a lot more freedom to live their lives how they want.

For this we must congratulate orselves.

But do we? No, we target the immigrants and tell them to go back to where they come from.

Is this what makes Britain 'Great'?

GillZean Posted on 6/10 12:47
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

"Does tolerance only work one way?"

It does at the moment, yes.

Wilkosperm Posted on 6/10 12:48
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

and multiculturalism does work both ways. ie they live in britain and should listen to some of the opinions of others for a change instead of constantly claiming that it infringes their rights.

Buddy Posted on 6/10 12:48
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

Rich_Boro - the reason it's a news story is that Jack Straw wants it to be one. John Reid's "popularity" went through the roof after his comments about Muslim parents keeping an eye on their kids, and Straw's got an interest in the leadership contest.

Wilkosperm Posted on 6/10 12:50
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

I have never said go back to where you came from. It is typical that if you discuss a minority you are automatically accused of being racist. That is the doctrine of the fascist left.
This summer I was best man at a hindu wedding so try not to paint me as some sort of rabid reactionary. I just think that it would help community relations.
On a facetious point - nudists are arrested for being nude in public.

GillZean Posted on 6/10 12:51
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

Buck,

I think you'll find that Muslims are the immigrants who have failed spectacularly to integrate into British society. You work out why.
Chinese, Hindus, Sikhs, Afro Carribbbean, African, Eastern European etc etc all blend in.
"INTEGRATION" there we go.

Wilkosperm Posted on 6/10 12:53
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

Gillzean - exactly.

DrBuck Posted on 6/10 12:56
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

Gill, I think you will find that 'integration' is not a requirement when immigrating to Britain.

Wilkosperm Posted on 6/10 12:57
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

I think that if you listen to those that beleive in multiculturalism they often stress that it should be.
If it isnt it should be, surely you would agree with that?

Revol_Tees Posted on 6/10 12:57
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

What about women who walk around with their tits out, wearing skimpy short skirts and desperately trying to please the male gaze? Are you comfortable striking up conversations with them at the bus stop? There's millions of 'em, on the streets, in the press, on TV and even in the workplace. They are, I suppose, the pinnacle of Western enlightenment and tolerence.

littlejimmy Posted on 6/10 12:59
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

Come on, Wilko. Public nudity is a no-no in almost all countries, so that's a ridiculous comparison. Some people here frown on the Western acres-of-flesh-revealed style of dress, but they let it go. They don't understand why women would want to dress like that and have men leering at them. Some are really offended by it, but they're a minority. The ones who want to get all Westerners out are like the ones in Britain who want to get all Asians/Arabs/non-whites out - a small bunch of lunatics living in dreamland.

Gillzean - when that happens (the running the ship bit), rest assured, I'll give you a high-ranking job in my cabinet.

Eddie_Catflap Posted on 6/10 13:00
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

I think in order to make everyone comfortable we should come up with an approved official 'British' style of headgear that all races and cultures can accept. I vote for the white knotted hankie.

The_Commisar Posted on 6/10 13:01
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

Afternoon, flying visit. Nice to see no silly name calling or the "just boot them out" type stuff, proves that we can discuss something like this.
Straw if he is using this for a leadership bid is a cynical schiit, if some muslim women gets abused or a window put through, will he be bothered ?

The integration thing is interesting, compare UK and US citizenship, in the US you are in no doubt you are a citizen, you have obligations and must know some thing about the country your coming to. UK ?

I also find it strange that in Turkey, no veil is ok, Saudi ?
Oh yes, theres a bit of a difference of opinion amongst muslims themselves.

littlejimmy Posted on 6/10 13:02
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

Eddie. A much-needed injection of silliness.

RT, that's exactly the point I'm making, because the women in veils thing just that.

DrBuck Posted on 6/10 13:05
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

A few women wear 'veils'. Big Deal! It's her business. Get over it you lot.

Pauluka Posted on 6/10 13:06
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

I really want to get involved in this thread however I can't be doing with another ban

Boromart Posted on 6/10 13:07
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

XXLshirts_fit_all, I think it is a little naive to beleive that the only problem with veils is that it identifies there beliefs and people do not trust people with 'foreign' beliefs.

I think it is much more to do with the western issues of body language and the fact that the veil inhibits that cultural mechanism for expression and communication. Look at the big hooha about hoodies recently, they are banned from some places e.g. bluewater shopping centre. Because in western society covering ones face is seen as threatening behaviour. By covering ones face, it is difficult to read someones moods and temperement. That is integral to our society.

If you want to see how uncovering ones face creates trust compare the US and UK troops in Iraq. US troops , hard hats and sunglasses, to hide expressions = conflict. UK troops with soft caps, and visible face = much less conflict.

So in fact it isn't even just a western cultural thing, it is world wide. The face has around 40 muscles in it, many of them are solely for communication. Humans are social animals by nature and therefore faces are not meant to be covered, to do so is in fact anti-social.

SmogontheThames Posted on 6/10 13:08
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

A muslim family recently moved into our road. I have passed the women on a few occasions now and bid a polite good morning or good evening. Each time she averts her eyes and does not respond. This is because her strict religeous beliefs mean she can only acknowledge her husband directly. How can this type of behaviour ever integrate into our society!!

Wilkosperm Posted on 6/10 13:14
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

anti social and anti western I am afraid

grantus Posted on 6/10 13:17
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

This sort of treatment of women by certain muslims is prehistoric, it is caveman type behaviour and I cannot find what is holy about it whatsoever. It's bordering on illegal in my book.

YodaTheCoder Posted on 6/10 13:19
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

Hear hear Grantus.

SmogontheThames Posted on 6/10 13:22
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

This is where it all stems from

"Tell the faithful women to lower their gaze and guard their private parts and not display their beauty except what is apparent of it, and to extend their scarf to cover their bosom"

Koran, 24:31 (English translation)

..talk about interperate it to suit yourself!!!

Boromart Posted on 6/10 13:25
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

...and regarding using the minority of british thugs as a diversion tactic from the racial integration problems.

It needs bearing in mind that a MINORITY of non-muslim people in this country are anti-social to british culture, it is actually a very small percentage of the population that fight and drink themselves into complete oblivion. A much greater percentage and possibly majority of muslims are anti-social in regards british culture.

--- Post edited by Boromart on 6/10 13:48 ---

Rich_Boro Posted on 6/10 14:12
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

I think Boromart summed things up perfectly!

red_rebel2 Posted on 6/10 14:25
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

Boromart - where is your evidence that 'possible a majority' of moslems are anti-social?

The number of radical Islamists is probably measured in thousands. It is a tiny fraction.

The_Commisar Posted on 6/10 14:28
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

R_R, if we are talking about risk and potential, I'm sorry, but I don't reall several london busses been blown up with "12 hole Doctor Martens Boot Bombs" or trying to crash a Harrington Jacket into the world trade centre.
The hard core within the muslim community have no qualms.
Please feel free to use the "state terrorism" card)

Boromart Posted on 6/10 14:46
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

red_rebel, the fact that I stated 'possible' is more than an indication that I have no hard facts.

Are you claiming that only Muslim radicals are anti-social in regards to british society? It may only be a small number of individuals willing to strap 20lbs of explosives onto themselves and blow up inoccent men, women and children. But there are a higher number of muslims that think they are justified, and still a further number who think islamic law should be installed in britain, and still a further number who feel alcohol should be banned, and still a further number who feel that no other religeous symbolism should be displayed in front of them, and still a further....you get the picture. It is all anti-social.

Its not just radical muslims I am questioning, I beleive that 95% of British muslims are not radicals. I have however seen many polls regarding the introduction of islamic law in britain, the dissolutionment of islamic youth in Britain, and a thousand and one anecdotal comments of hatred of this country and what it stands for. So I may not have hard evidance of muslims anti-social reaction to British culture and society. I do however like many other get a strong indication that many muslims, mostly young hate us and our society. Therefore they are indeed anti-social.

Since you seem to allude that you in fact take a polar view, could you show me your evidance on how muslims are in fact integrating into british society.

--- Post edited by Boromart on 6/10 14:49 ---

--- Post edited by Boromart on 6/10 14:50 ---

Revol_Tees Posted on 6/10 14:51
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

"possibly majority of muslims are anti-social in regards british culture."

Absolute b-llocks. Where'd you get your information from - the bloke down the pub?

GillZean Posted on 6/10 14:56
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

Probably from one of those so-called surveys by MORI, or something.

If it's not in the Morning Star, I don't believe it.

Boromart Posted on 6/10 14:58
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

I was actually going to put the following statement in my previous email, but cut it at the last moment....

"To pre-empt any response about beleiving the popular press, I am not some 15 year old who makes rash, bold and inflammatory statements based on reading the sun or other such xenaphobic rag. I am a middleclass, degree educated, managerial job holding man with an IQ of 148. So am well aware that newspapers, and the mass media or not in the gig to spread the truth, but to make money. So I am very scpetical about much that is quoted. But the anecdotal evidance is that muslims (especially young) are not interested in integration, in fact they would like us to integrate with them."

I should have left it in because some of you are very predictable.

Boromart Posted on 6/10 15:00
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

anti-social - Hostile to or disruptive of the established social order.

I am absolutely 100% convinced that the majority of muslims are disruptive, and a fair number are hostile to British Society.

--- Post edited by Boromart on 6/10 15:05 ---

riverboat_captain Posted on 6/10 15:01
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

The people who use this argument that "if western women go to their countries they have to abide by their cultures, so when they come over here they should do the same" are wrong. We have a culture of freedom of expression, freedom to wear what you like, wearing a veil is not counter to this.

Boromart Posted on 6/10 15:03
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

but that isn't factually correct, we do NOT have complete freedom....e.g. hoodies banned in certain places.

There are 1001 other things that come under 'civil liberty' restrictions that are hindered for the 'good of our society'.

--- Post edited by Boromart on 6/10 15:04 ---

halalKosher Posted on 6/10 15:10
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

"and I've never had a problem communicating with someone through a veil - they tend to be quite sound-permeable in my experience."


Admin wear veils?



Thinking about it they probably do.

Nisko Posted on 6/10 15:24
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

To be honest, I don't see why the veils would prevent them from doing calculus, I think you're all just being ridiculous.

--- Post edited by Nisko on 6/10 15:24 ---

York_Smoggie Posted on 6/10 15:25
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

Just a thought, not meant to be imflammatory. During the trouble in Windsor last night, police stopped white youths and forced them to remove the scarves wrapped around their faces to hide their identity. I don't remember that happening during the massed muslim protests over the cartoons of Allah. As i said, just a thought

halalKosher Posted on 6/10 15:26
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

Are you a racist then york_smoggie?

capio Posted on 6/10 15:28
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

I haven't looked at one post on this thread I would bet my life littlejimmy is all over the thread like a cheap suit talking crap and that redrebel has turned into a tirade of anti-Americanism.

Boromart Posted on 6/10 15:29
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

halalKosher, why would YS be racist? He seems to be asking for equal civil liberties between races.

DrBuck Posted on 6/10 15:32
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

Using 'hoodies' as an example/defence of your twisted outlook in this context is utterly ridiculous.

York_Smoggie Posted on 6/10 15:32
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

Hal...Not at all, just feel that sometimes muslims are treated differently to others, I have a strong sense of fair play.

halalKosher Posted on 6/10 15:35
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

fair enough Y_S sorry mate.

grantus Posted on 6/10 15:35
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

Religion / Personal life choices

Please tell me the difference. Why should behaviour attributed to one not be allowed for the other?

GillZean Posted on 6/10 15:38
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

Mornington Crescent.

DrBuck Posted on 6/10 15:38
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

100

York_Smoggie Posted on 6/10 15:38
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

No problem Hal....debates do tend to raise the blood pressure sometimes

GillZean Posted on 6/10 15:43
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

I bet you'd prefer vinegar on your chips to the taste of my stale urine, Dr.

littlejimmy Posted on 6/10 15:43
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

capio is now psychic as well. How are we to live in the presence of such immense power?

To be fair though, it just proves how he approaches facts. Presumptions and prejudice are always nice and easy to fall back on. Sod the truth. Anyway, I'll have a go: I bet he typed that with shaking hands, sweat on his brow and a bitter, stinging tear in his eye.

Revol_Tees Posted on 6/10 15:46
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

The irony is cracking me up.

Boromart: if you want to find out how many people support the implementation of sharia law, why don't you just start a thread on here about murderers, pedophiles, burglars, the death penalty and the criminal justice system in general? The views expressed may shock you into describing Joe Public as "anti-social". Or maybe not, because Joe Public isn't Muslim.

The very fact of being "Muslim" in Britain in 2006 is to be offensive and anti-social. Every little difference is amplified x 1000 and held up as evidence of how alien and incompatible they are with British culture. Irish immigrants used to get the same treatment; then Jews; then blacks; now Muslims. There's always one, and it's always the same.

To paraphrase Boromart: It may only be a small number of individuals who are willing to drag their country into wars across the globe which blow up thousands of innocent men, women and children, but there are a higher number of people who think they are justified. And still a further number who think terrorist suspects deserve to be shot whether they're innocent or not, still a further number who think drugs (such as cannabis) should be banned, and still further a number of people who think pedos should hanged, and still further a number who think asylum seekers are scrounging scum, and still further a number who like to go out for a drink and a fight on Saturday night, and still further number who feel that no other religious symbols (should as the veil) should be displayed in front of them ... you get the picture.

It is all anti-social.

capio Posted on 6/10 15:46
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

How prejudice of you, you're the one who gets all het up old bean, I couldn't give a rats ass.
We learn things bye experience, we know not to touch a hot iron because we have been taught it will burn our hands and I know you will talk utter crap as you have been doing it most days for 4 years or so.
I still haven't looked up but your swift response suggests I am right.

littlejimmy Posted on 6/10 15:47
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

granuts - religion is not always about personal choice. You're looking at it from the point of view of a well-fed westerner who has grown up with choices from day one. If you were born in Saudi Arabia or deepest Texas, you might well have a different view.

capio Posted on 6/10 15:47
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

I will also predict an appearance from commisar soon to protect your honour.

littlejimmy Posted on 6/10 15:50
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

You're even swifter response suggests you are in love with me. Sorry, serial fantasists aren't my type.

capio Posted on 6/10 15:52
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

You wont be in a position to be fussy soon when ali baba turns your Mrs. head.

grantus Posted on 6/10 15:52
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

I couldn't give a toss about Saudi or Texas. This is England and to me there is no difference at all.

Ban hoodies, ban viels. No difference at all.

I'll worry about Texas and Saudi when I live in Texas or Saudi.

littlejimmy Posted on 6/10 15:57
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

Grantus - however hard you try to deny it, it's an unfortunate side-effect of life as a human being that there are 6 billion other people on this planet with different views of the world and how it works. Grantus-vision isn't the gospel. I thought you were bright enough to know that.

grantus Posted on 6/10 16:00
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

Are you completely misunderstanding my point here?

I'm talking about human rights being consistant for everyone, what are you talking about?

Boromart Posted on 6/10 16:01
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

Revl_tees - what a load of old tosh.

"The views expressed may shock you into describing Joe Public as "anti-social"."
The views of 'Joe Public' defines 'social', in our society. Your statement is completely flawed. You and I may not like our society but that is a completely differant debate.

"The very fact of being "Muslim" in Britain in 2006 is to be offensive and anti-social."
It doesn't have to be and for many it isn't, but many of them have appeared to close ranks, and fight angainst the system. Not a good ides as far as integration is concerned.

"evidence of how alien and incompatible they are with British culture."
But it is fair comment that the Qur'an is not tollerant of non-muslims. I'll paraphrase but it does talk about destroying the infidels, 'kill the infidels while they sleep', and the life of a non-muslim not being worth the life of a muslim brother. It is those who take those statements as literal or fail to put them in the context of the world in which they were written, who are indeed anti-social within our society.

" Irish immigrants used to get the same treatment; then Jews; then blacks; now Muslims. There's always one, and it's always the same."
Although all those groups wanted to integrate...the same cannot be said of many muslims, because there religion tells them we and our society are inferior to them.

"To paraphrase Boromart: It may only be a small number of individuals who are willing to drag their country into wars"
completely off topic. I'm not even going to get into that one...I'll just say that I'm not surprised it has reared its head again.

"And still a further number who think terrorist suspects deserve to be shot whether they're innocent or not, still a further number who think drugs (such as cannabis) should be banned, and still further a number of people who think pedos should hanged, and still further a number who think asylum seekers are scrounging scum, and still further a number who like to go out for a drink and a fight on Saturday night, and still further number who feel that no other religious symbols (should as the veil) should be displayed in front of them ... you get the picture. "
Yeah that is a view of OUR society, warts and all. A society which many muslims want to take the benefits from, without actually integrating, therefore being anti-social.



--- Post edited by Boromart on 6/10 16:05 ---

capio Posted on 6/10 16:01
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

Hang on a second, you're the first one to start whining when anybody makes a comment that isn't politically correct communist rhetoric.
What you mean to say is, Grantus you can have an opinion as long as it matches mine.

littlejimmy Posted on 6/10 16:09
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

OK, I think we're talking at cross porpoises here. I was challenging your assertion that religion is a personal choice. Personally I can't see why they are the same. Veilled women are not threatening anyone or anyone (apart from people with preconceived notions of Islam). Youths in hoods have committed crimes in shopping malls. Hoods are now banned. Two totally separate things. When women in veils start robbing banks and mugging old ladies, then we might have something to address.

Copius, please learn to grasp simple notions before trying to enter a debate that involves more than sticking strings of swear words together and name-calling. What I said to grantus is that everyone in the world has their own opinion, and I can live with that.

--- Post edited by littlejimmy on 6/10 16:12 ---

Revol_Tees Posted on 6/10 16:10
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

Incidentally, did anyone hear about the police raid in Lancashire on Monday night which uncovered a huge cache of chemicals used to make explosives? It is apparently the largest haul of such chemicals ever found in this country.

No, I thought not.

The reason who didn't hear about it was because (gasp) it wasn't Muslims. Instead it was those friendly English gentlemen in the B N P. Can you imagine is these boys had been Asians?

Boromart Posted on 6/10 16:12
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

Revol_Tees, could you show me some links to this?

Eddie_Catflap Posted on 6/10 16:14
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

To paraphrase Buddy way up at the top of the thread there I think anyone who picks their clothing based on any religious teaching must be nuts. I always get the feeling that the women are being forced into wearing that sort of thing, but I don't know any Muslim women to ask whether that's the case. For all I know though, the Muslim women in veils I see at the supermarket are thinking that I am being forced to wear jeans that are clearly too small for my fat arse.

capio Posted on 6/10 16:16
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

Littlejimmy the only person who lacks the ability to debate is you, what you said was in no way related to my remarks.
Your comments are usually repetitive and full of conjecture and nonsense.
You regularly suggest that everybody should have an opinion but then shoot down people who have opinions that don’t match your own.
You usually become abusive and then cry to admin when people are abusive back.
As for attempting to act all high-brow you’re just a qs son calm down.

--- Post edited by capio on 6/10 16:16 ---

artois_bock Posted on 6/10 16:17
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

If you walk into a bank with a helmet on, you will get done for suspicion to commit bank robbery.

If a muslim walks in with a veil over her face then it's normal because a big huff will be made if they get asked to take it off and then the whole Government will be questioned by the muslim community.

Jack Straw - Spot on!

Boromart Posted on 6/10 16:21
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

anyone up for knocking off a NatWest? I've got a fool proof plan, thanks to AB..

--- Post edited by Boromart on 6/10 16:21 ---

the_broken_fridge Posted on 6/10 16:21
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/article.php?article_id=9882

Boromart Posted on 6/10 16:23
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

so if this is indeed true why has it not appeared in the press?...and what exactly is the relevance, other than the press tell you what will sell papaers, not the whole truth? which anyone with a modecum of intelligance already knew. This isn't really relevant ot the debate at hand.

Oh and by the way, there are very few explosive finds in this country, so to be the biggest probably isn't a big deal, I don't know how this find what compare if the 7/7 bombers had been found BEFORE killing people.

--- Post edited by Boromart on 6/10 16:27 ---

--- Post edited by Boromart on 6/10 16:28 ---

Wilkosperm Posted on 6/10 16:26
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

Artois Bock - spot on.
Boro mart - sounds like the begininng of the Italian Job.
On a side note, my first 100er.I am no longer a 100 virgin and can look fellow posters in the eye.

littlejimmy Posted on 6/10 16:27
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

Capito - everything that comes from your fingertips is either a lie, an insult or a gross exaggeration, so it's pointless even addressing any of your ridiculous assertions. Your debating style ultimately comes down to childish insults and preposterous vieled threats. Your latest incarnation might have fooled a lot of people, but it won't last. The friends you've been so desperate to make through the board will soon see through you. Carry on living in your little dream world of power and influence, son.

Oh, and it's Senior QS, I'll have you know. I'm sure you'll start telling everyone your IQ in a minute. Be careful though, anything above 170 will seriously stretch people's capacity to be fooled.

Wilkosperm Posted on 6/10 16:27
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

This thread now has it all with the appearance of the 'Socialist Worker', a fount of knowledge and no bias at all. How funny.

littlejimmy Posted on 6/10 16:28
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

I repeat to AB and WS, etc. How many banks have been done over by women in veils?

riverboat_captain Posted on 6/10 16:29
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

Revrol, there was a bloke arrested in South Bank a year or two ago, with a house full of home made bombs and all sorts of equipment for making more.

I'm not even sure he made the national news.

Wilkosperm Posted on 6/10 16:31
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

littlejimmy - it is not about whether it has actually happened it is about women in veils going into a bank normally. If I went in with a motorbike helmet on I would be refused entry. The same should, but doesnt, happen to a woman in a veil.

capio Posted on 6/10 16:31
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

As usual nothing behind your words, just nonsense, I am sure you'll be back at 2am your time tonight when your wife has blown you out and you have had a few beers so thus raising your cyber aggression.

You're nothing but an anti-English pseudo-intellectual jock nobody and this country will be better if you never come back.
Stay where you are the people there hate the English as much as you do.

Boromart Posted on 6/10 16:32
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

LJ - it is 100% correct to say that some people in hoodies are NOT criminals and some veiled muslims ARE criminals....whats your point.

grantus Posted on 6/10 16:33
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

This is my point exactly. motorcycle helmts, hoodies, whatever, I should be able to wear what I please. I wouldn't wear a mask over me face out of respect for others though, it's completely disrespectful in my opinion. It excludes other people from you totally.

Is it because I'm a sex crazed beast who couldn't prevent myself from having lustful thoughts about this other mans wife? What a load of cobblers.

If this is the done thing somewhere, then fine, that's acceptable. But I knbow it wouldn;t be acceptable for me to do it here, so likewise for others. Particularly under this current climate of fear and suspicion.

Integrate not segregate, accept, not preach. The British culture, not the Middle Eastern Culture.

The Aussies have it right.

If you want sharia law and if you want to behave in ways that are not condusive to a fully integrated sociaty, then f'ck off somewhere else!

Wilkosperm Posted on 6/10 16:36
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

I never feared the introduction of Sharia law but unless people do try to INTEGRATE more then there is a real danger, and it is a danger, that there could be a serious movement in this direction if people do not take what might seem at first unpleasant but completely necessary steps at ending this self imposed isolationism. Well Done Jack Straw.

littlejimmy Posted on 6/10 16:41
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

Impressive restraint, caputio. FYI - I'm not Scottish. And I don't drink. Two more complete assumptions or blatant lies. I don't have to back up my assertions about you, because everyone knows who you are and what you are. Either way, I'll leave you to it now, old bean. I won't be back later because I'm tired after swimming in the pool in the garden of my large gold mansion.

Boromart - how many crimes have you heard of in the UK carried out by Muslim veiled women? It's amazing how people are suddenly pro-equality when it comes to things like this, but the same people hate the fact that they get equal rights to benefits or health-care or education.

grantus Posted on 6/10 16:43
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

No jimmy, the same people do not hate the fact that they get equal rights to benefits or health-care or education.

Put your tar brush away.

I'm getting disappointed with some of your posts on here.

Lefty3668 Posted on 6/10 16:44
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

I knew we'd have a long thread on this when I heard it on the radio this morning. Unfortunately I haven't had time to contribute or even read it as yet. I suspect it will have drifted off subject a little. Can anybody tell me if I was right?

Also, did anyone make the point further up that Straw was merely talking about when he has 1 to 1 conversations with a small number of veiled muslim women during his surgeries? He said he felt uncomfortable talking to someone face to face when they were wearing a veil so he asked them if they would remove it while they were having the conversation, which they always did.

That seems ok to me, it is just good manners I think. I don't think he was talking about introducing a ban.

Boromart Posted on 6/10 16:50
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

LJ that isn't a statistic I am privvy to, I have seen a veiled muslim ( I presume women), carted off in Coventry town centre. I assume she had performed some crime.

What exactly are you alluding to
a) veiled muslim women NEVER commit crimes, or
b) veiled muslim women commit far fewer crimes than hooded youths.

If so what evidance do you have to back this up?

Personally I DO want equality in benefits, healthcare and education. I just want a benefits system that does not entice people to sponge of my taxes, regardless if they are native to these shores, immagrated from eastern europe, afghanistan or australia.

Could you explain to me why you think that it is mutually exclusive to hold the view that 'viels should be banned' and 'don't give immagrants any handouts'. That is very narrow minded and quite embaressing.

--- Post edited by Boromart on 6/10 16:52 ---

littlejimmy Posted on 6/10 16:50
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

But grantus, the problem is that not many people of any given culture is willing to totally integrate into a new one when they move to another country. The British are just behind the Americans in their willingness to integrate. The vast majority of the British people in the UAE can't speak Arabic. They set up little British enclaves, churches and even fish and chip shops. Believe me, because I see it here, and we have some (only a few, OK) Muslims moaning about the way Westerners behave (mainly to do with dress code and alcohol consumption) and telling us to go home if we don't like the way things are here. Sound familiar?

So while your intentions may be laudable (protection of indigenous culture) I don't think it's a realistic view, IMO. Anyway, I'm a firm believer in cross-cultural influence. Cultures all over the world can benefit from others. The British culture has always been rich and diverse because of our history.

And fair point about that tar-brushing. I take it back, and say SOME people.

Boromart, OK. Let's try this from a slightly different angle. Of course, some crime has been committed by a woman in a veil at some point. However, they are not wearing the veil in order to hid their identity. It's about chastity and modesty and all that stuff which some of us think is cobblers (I do too, if I'm honest, but it's not my place to tell them this). Bad, feckless yob people who wear hoodies are doing so to hide their faces. Bank robbers wear stockings (on their heads) to do the same. The wearing of a motorbike helmet COULD be construed as the same thing, unfortunate as it is, but then there is no real need to keep your helmet on indoors, is there? To a muslim veil-wearing woman, the veil across the face is non-negotiable and not a personal choice (not in all cases). I know it's archaic and strange, but it's just the way it is. Like I said, when banks start getting done over by ladies in veils, then we might have to look at it.

--- Post edited by littlejimmy on 6/10 16:59 ---

grantus Posted on 6/10 17:00
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

I'm not saying that someone should forget their heritage, or the culture they came from. I am saying that if you move into another culture, it is you who should adapt. If you bring things to the table that others want to take on board, brilliant.

If English in Dubai are guilty of segregation and elitism too, then shame on them. I doubt that this is exactly the case though.

Why do the authorities in Dubai allow for places that Westerners can get drunk in, why do they allow them to wear western clothes?

Isn't it because mostly are skilled workers and they bring skills that are needed to the country?

Cultures do develop and take on things from other cultures and for that I am in complete support.

Stop missing my point jimmy, is it deliberate?

Boromart Posted on 6/10 17:00
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

LJ, I have a question if you walked around the UAE with blatent Jewish or Christian attire, how long before you were shot at arrested or stabbed?

Our culture is extremely tolerant, as is the US. Very few westerners emmigrate, and most of those that do, do so short term....learning the language is not relevant for a two or three year stint.

We are talking about muslims who have moved to the UK for life. Those changes should be reflected by embrassing your host nations culture.

"Bad, feckless yob people who wear hoodies are doing so to hide their faces" Most people who wear hoodies, are not as you described. Many people wear them for fashion, and to them fashion is an important part way to express there freedom and individuality, and that is non-negotiable. So the motivation is still the same for both hoodies, and veilies...why should the muslim ladies religious reason be of any more importance than the youths fashion reason? There is no differance, at the end of the day, it is a personal decision. If that isn't a decision that they can live with then move to another country - that goes for the hoodie and the muslim.

--- Post edited by Boromart on 6/10 17:07 ---

capio Posted on 6/10 17:04
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

You’re an anti-English sweaty you have no interest in football and you’re boasting about ‘living well’ in a hell hole, the middle-east is a vile place and a region I wish never to visit again. It suits a nobody like you though it’s the only place you’ll make a good living you oik.

The_Commisar Posted on 6/10 17:11
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

"and a region I wish never to visit again"


to be fair, they probably don't want you back either.

Eddie_Catflap Posted on 6/10 17:12
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

Bloody hell, poor old jimmy is getting it from all sides here. He's not a bad sort.

capio Posted on 6/10 17:13
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

capio Posted on 6/10 15:47 Email this Message | Edit | Reply
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I will also predict an appearance from commisar soon to protect your honour.


A little slower than usual but as predictable as ever.

--- Post edited by capio on 6/10 17:13 ---

grantus Posted on 6/10 17:16
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

I dont think jimmy is a bad sort either, but he's responding to my points incorrectly. Dont I make myself clear?

The_Commisar Posted on 6/10 17:19
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

If you want predictable we can always talk about your business empire claims.....they are predictable and tired.

However on another thread, the adults are talking on here.
Off you go.

capio Posted on 6/10 17:20
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

Commisar you may be an adult but your grasp of English is akin to a 3 year old child.

4 was too generous.


--- Post edited by capio on 6/10 17:22 ---

The_Commisar Posted on 6/10 17:23
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

Jimmy isn't a bad sort, he's never been banned (by anyone other than himself) from here or another site, he holds his views and argues them passionately.
What is clear is that significant number of people on this board do not find the wearing of the veil a good thing.
The question is why ?
Is it the veil or the culture it represents ?

littlejimmy Posted on 6/10 17:25
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

Grantus, it's not deliberate. I agree about having to adapt, and we all have to adapt here - to the weather as much as anything!, but for sure, we respect (in the main) their holy month, Ramadan, and don't eat in public until after Iftar. Bars are still open, mind. So it's a two-way street. We adapt, and they adapt in return. Nothing wrong with that, because there is a mutual benefit to both.

As for lack of true integration, it is defintely the case with not just the English, but most Westerners here, TBH. There is little integration either way. Sadly, that is the case here and vice-versa in the UK. And yes, they make allowances for us because we are bringing MONEY and the means to make more of it to the country.

Something else that few people know about Dubai, and it certainly isn't advertised by the leaders, is that the bulk of the expat community (from the Asian subcontinent) are here to do the really crappy work, either as construction workers, or if they're lucky the service industry or administration. They all live in crappy accommodation in Sharjah, the emirate to the north, and travel in crappy buses to work every morning. They have no unions or rights and get paid the same in a month as people like me get in a day. The better off in their numbers live in Satwa or Karama and there is a bit more integration there, but walking around them is like being in downtown Bombay (not a bad thing, just an observation). Some wag will say Bradford in a minute. And being in this area we live in and others near us is like being in a very sunny UK.

An interesting thing, this cultural integration. We have some good debates about it in the newspaper letter pages and on some other MBs that I frequent.

Boromart,

Christian dress you say? I saw a catholic nun walking round in a mall the other day, without anyone blinking an eye. We have Christian churches here. None of them have been firebombed as far as I know. The only exception is Jews. They are totally banned from this country. Shame, but the Jews and the Arabs aren't really that friendly.

And to address your other point, there are loads of people here who have lived in the Middle East for 10, 20 or even more years. They know how to say Salaam alaykum, but that's about it.

Capio, you're comedy gold lad, a real pleasure to have back, but mainly because that bit about the mansion went totally over your head. Anyway, stick to the day job, whatever that is today.

--- Post edited by littlejimmy on 6/10 17:31 ---

littlejimmy Posted on 6/10 17:28
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

Fookinell this board's up the spout today. I spend 20 minutes on a reply and then it kicks me back to the MB main page without posting the message. ARRGGHH!

Anyway, grantus, hope I'm getting the gist of it now. Either you're not articulating it well, or I'm thick as pigshit. After all, I'm only a lowly Senior QS.

grantus Posted on 6/10 17:37
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

But are Westerners actually encouraged to integrate there jimmy? Isn't it a case of them being put together. The non skilled in slums and the skilled in nice estates, type of thing?

The migrant workforce, is it really expected to stay long term, for life even, or until the job is done?

If it is long term, then why are they not encouraged to integrate?

perhaps the UAE could learn from the mistakes we made with our imported workforces from the 1950's on, instead of making the same mistakes we did.

Probably is my articulation jimmy, apologies if I am not being as encapsulating as I could be, I'll spell our my points more concisely in future.

The board is really getting on my nerves too. Just post the bloody message FFS.

Boromart Posted on 6/10 17:38
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

"And to address your other point, there are loads of people here who have lived in the Middle East for 10, 20 or even more years. They know how to say Salaam alaykum, but that's about it."

that kinda skirts around the main point, and fact, that westerners in arab countries are there for the short haul, muslims are here for life. So the necessity to integrate is shorter. There is not a single ethnic group that is banned from this country, and it is sad/backward that any country would do so. I guess that is a prime example of a lack of tolerance and puts into context any complaints about the tolerance of muslim veils in this country.

--- Post edited by Boromart on 6/10 17:39 ---

zaphod Posted on 6/10 17:46
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

I don't think Jack Straw called for a ban on veils. He just said he'd prefer Muslim women not to wear veils when they come to see him. I must say I sympathise with him. I've found it very difficult to treat veiled women as "real people" when I've dealt with them. The normal interpersonal relationship just can't develop in those circumstances.

I've found the lack of understanding of that by Muslims to be very depressing. Muslims seem to think everyone should make an effort to understand them, but seem unwilling to reciprocate.

BTW, LJ, short-term visitors to a country aren't expected to integrate, but if you want to become a citizen of a country, you have to adapt and try to fit in. The 2 situations are entirely different.

The_Commisar Posted on 6/10 17:49
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

BM, do you think we are not comparing like with like though ?
In the past when the British went abroad, we didn't need to adapt to the locals way of living as we either went back to the UK again, or they (the locals) adapted to the UK lifestyle and adopted much of our culture.
The asians who do adapt and intergrate are generally the ones (in my limited experience) who are in jobs that require it. The second and now third gneration ones are also changing, it seems to be that it is the first generation who still hold the families together and make the rules who are hanging on to old cultural norms, and imposing these on their kids, as these pass away there will be more integration, and again in the next generation. We are asking that people who have only been in the UK for say 40 years to be exactly the same, ask yourself this, last time you spoke to someone who had emigrated to say Australia, or the US, did they say "well it still doesn't feel like home yet"?

littlejimmy Posted on 6/10 18:01
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

Not really, grantus. We can live where we like, or can afford anyway (property prices increased to maintain class segregation? well, dur. It happens everywhere). There are loads of Western expats round our way, but there are also locals and muslims from other countries as well. The mosque up the road was rammed the other night. It's just a fact of life that people do stick with what they know to some extent, especailly when it comes to mixing and community. I thought we were being right-on when the wife took my son to an Iranian ladies house for a play-date, but this Iranian woman has lived in London for 20-odd years and is as secular and Westernised as you can get. I suppose that in itself proves that people do adapt!

I'm not sure what you mean about the mass immigration when you say we made mistakes. Do you mean in terms of the segragation that happened? I agree that it was a bad thing, if that's what you mean. But, that's the idealist talking. I know in reality that the segregation is often natural, as I said before.

Anyway, as for how long we are welcome here, there are differences of opinion - I will try to give a balanced view. A lot of people think that expats are only here until the job is done and Dubai is the new Vegas in the ME. This is backed up by the fact that no-one from outside the UAE can get citizenship. We are guests. I don't know if this is going to change, but on the flip-side, they are building this place for a reason, and need to sell all the property they are building. Expats are able to buy property here, so there's a clue to their possible long-term intention. The intersting stat about this place is that UAE nationals make up only 20% of the population. If everyone else left, it would be a bloody expensive ghost-town.

And something else - these concessions made by allowing alcohol. I've been in a few bars here, and have seen many an Arab man in full national dress sat nursing a beer. I've also seen many an Arab man in places that are full of Chinese/Russian ladies of the night. There is a HUGE prostituion market here, believe it or not. More hypocrisy around organised religion. And like I said, the Saudis come here to let their beards down.

Boromart, you're right to a point. The hatred between Jews and Arabs/Muslims is quite astonishing, when their two religions are almost identical. I can't rationalise it, other than to say it's human nature. Emnity can be at its worst between close neighbours. Just look at as and the French, us and the Germans, the English and the Scots. They are a bit behind us, because we seem to have got it out of our systems in Europe with WW2. Anyway, I would say again that there are many who westerners here for the long haul. A lot are buying property and working their years out here. They like the sun and the tax-free living.

zaphod Posted on 6/10 18:07
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

I think the hatred between Jews and Muslims is largely down to the establishment and subsequent behaviour of Israel. Historically Muslim countries have treated Jews much better than Christian countries did.

littlejimmy Posted on 6/10 18:08
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

I don't know about that, zaphod. It depends on what you mean by integration. Even the shortest-term visitor here has to make some adjustments, especially during Ramadan. OK, that's probably not so much integration, so much as respect and observation of cultural norms. As for integrating long-term, I think it depends on where people go. Westerners going to other Western countries have a lot less to adjust to, so are able to integrate a lot more easily. People who emigrate to non-western cultures such as Asia and Africa tend to stick closer together in western groupings because they can't adjust as easily. So what holds one way has to hold the other way, no? That's not to say it doesn't happen, because there are plenty who have done so. I've seen loads of western women in Arab (though not fully-veiled) dress, and as my haggis-bothering friend so rightly stated, the later generations of immigrants have integrated better than their ancestors.

The_Commisar Posted on 6/10 18:11
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

<through gritted teeth>
leave the haggis alone

littlejimmy Posted on 6/10 18:12
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

Correcto on the Jew/Muslim point, zaph. I didn't want to drag moxzin into this discussion.

That's right, a discussion. Nice and civilised. My wife's going mad cos she wants to go on the computer!

grantus Posted on 6/10 18:16
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

Well I'm out of the office fellas. Have a good one.

I'll pick this up again sometime.

Later.

zaphod Posted on 6/10 18:19
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

I've spent about 20 of the last 30 years as an expat, LJ, and in my experience, European expats don't regard the country they're working in as home and that's why they don't feel it necessary to integrate. I think that's a reasonable attitude, though a lot of them, especially the kids, then find it difficult to fit in when they return to their supposed home country.

But if you're going to make a new country your home, like most immigrants to the UK, it's important to adapt and not behave like temporary residents. Most Muslims actually do that, but those that don't are storing up big problems for themselves IMHO.

The_Commisar Posted on 6/10 18:21
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

Zaph, you hit the nail on the head, we expect other countris to fit around us, and get hacked off when other races do this to us.

littlejimmy Posted on 6/10 18:35
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

Fair enough, zaphod. A perfectly valid point about some integrating better than others. But it isn't easy to apply this to everyone. A great many of the immigrants of the 1950s came here because the UK government asked them to. And many of today's immigrants are coming to work and sending money "home". I still think it depends a lot on the degree of difference between the home culture and the new one. UK people moving to Aus/NZ and even the US usually mangage to integrate quite well. As for the children of expats (and I can see it here), I think the problem there is that they have been living a lifestyle that is far removed from that they would normally live in the UK. They have maids and nannies and private educations and everything they want, pretty much. Going back to the UK is a culture shock! HA!

Bukowski_MFC Posted on 6/10 18:44
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

At least these women wearing the veil will appear to integrate into the population on halloween.

LIDDLE_TOWERS Posted on 6/10 18:50
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

Muslims will try and bring this country down

if we let them

the Israeli stance is the only way forward

Fook anyone over who gets in your way

especially people who were not even born in this country

littlejimmy Posted on 6/10 18:53
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

I didn't know Moxzin had an evil twin.

YodaTheCoder Posted on 6/10 18:55
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

"What is clear is that significant number of people on this board do not find the wearing of the veil a good thing.
The question is why ?"

Personally. Because the reason they want to wear it is they have been brainwashed by an ass-backward religion* which hasn't moved out of the middle ages. How far do these people's beliefs stretch, if the Quran told them to gouge out their left eye would they do that?


*That's nothing against Islam particularly. I think all religions are ass-backward.

zaphod Posted on 6/10 18:57
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

Makes moxzin look the epitome of moderation.

The_Commisar Posted on 6/10 18:58
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

Yoda, your sounding more and more like my swedish mate steff, which is worrying.

Wait until you see the christians in the philipines who nail them selves to the cross, well they get someone to do it for them as that last nails a bit tricky.

--- Post edited by The_Commisar on 6/10 18:59 ---

craig007 Posted on 7/10 13:24
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

well said mate

craig007 Posted on 7/10 13:29
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

we are not allowed to wear helmets in shops i think that they should abide by our laws if they want to be called british i have asian mates and all of them agree they should not wear the veils ,

SirGooner01 Posted on 7/10 13:32
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

agree mate, this is england and while all religions should be respected to a point, they are still in england a western country and they need to ajust to that.

SplendidStuff Posted on 7/10 13:32
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

whilst i dont follow a religion i do think that people have a right to express their religous beliefs.

I dont understand why a veil causes so much upset, its just a piece of cloth ffs!!

pisces Posted on 7/10 13:45
re: Straw - right on muslim women's veils

I'm just waiting for the first council in the UK to alter Christmas to the 'Winter Festival' and change the kids Nativity plays to a 'multi-cultural' celebration. That to me is far more offensive. bandito is right, our British culture is fast disappearing.