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Nedkat Posted on 9/12 17:16
The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

I don't care what anyone says about the Carling Cup, and the Uefa Cup, McClaren was not good for my football club. The Phantom of McClaren will linger over my club for years to come, his tactical methods have stuttered the players into this real defensive mentality. Leaving us with a team still playing 45 minutes of an extremely important game, like a bunch of Sunday leaguers.

I reckon we'll have to give Gate some time to fix this, and I also reckon he's the right man to do it.

GibbosEmpire Posted on 9/12 17:19
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

Our Club Ned.Unless your name is Steve Gibson?

I know what you mean though.New players and different coaches will be a start for me.Its still mostly Maccas team.

--- Post edited by GibbosEmpire on 9/12 17:22 ---

bigchanges Posted on 9/12 17:20
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

Oh yes - its all SMACs fault for this season as well. FFS!

Nedkat Posted on 9/12 17:22
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

I believe it is his fault, not totally .. but he is responsible for a certain amount of the present situation ..

FFS .. !!!

bigchanges Posted on 9/12 17:26
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

Oh come on Ned.
I'll take your point he has 'some' responsibility - but not a lot.
Those players shd be playing better. There has been some shocking selection decisions.
The buck must stop with Southgate.
ffs

Nedkat Posted on 9/12 17:29
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

I agree, the buck does stop with Southgate, but the bulk of this team was put together by Smac, and it still shows through ...

swordtrombonefish Posted on 9/12 17:32
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

In my view you are not wrong Ned, we are left with a team that has had the soul sucked out of it by the negativity of SMAC. What is worse is that the influence is still there from his back room staff.

We could and *should* have moved them on, if Southgate was the man long term, then a short term high profile manager should have been in place with Southgate as the understudy, whilst he got his badges and learned the trade.

Sadly that has not happened, but I still feel that the backroom staff have a lot to answer for, those and that ex-Mackem Crosby, who for the life of me I cannot see the worth of, no matter how much I try.

I knew this was going to be a survival season with 12th-14th our destiny, I can still see that, but only if we start picking up points from fellow strugglers like Wigan. Some of those players could be doing more, but are not trying hard enough, Southgate can be blamed for naivety, but not for the lack of passion *on* the field.

--- Post edited by swordtrombonefish on 9/12 17:42 ---

bigchanges Posted on 9/12 17:35
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

Its Southgate's team. It has been for 16 games and he has got them performing pretty poorly. Simply not good enough. And the buck has to stop with The Gate.

Nedkat Posted on 9/12 17:38
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

It's Gate's team now Mac's gone off to frig around with the national team, but the players under Southgate are still heavily influenced by the large shiny toothed one ..

swordtrombonefish Posted on 9/12 17:38
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

In your opinion.
I have expressed mine.

Nellmad Posted on 9/12 17:39
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

What I want to know, is what the hell a failed Sunderland Manager is doing at the Boro ie Mr. Crosby

bigchanges Posted on 9/12 17:40
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

If they are still influenced by SMAC it says a hell of a lot about Southgate's managerial abilities.

Nellmad Posted on 9/12 17:42
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

If you look at the backroom staff, they are all Mclarens men, get rid now Gareth and get your own men in

swordtrombonefish Posted on 9/12 17:43
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

That is the point numpty, he does not yet have managerial ability - he is learning "on the job", and when thrown in at the deep end, it is never easy, as in any walk of life.

elnino1 Posted on 9/12 17:44
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

Get a fooking grip man.

Steve Mac did wonders for OUR club, and I'll never forget what was achieved whilst he was here.

I'm behind The Gate 100%, but a reality check is needed regards Mac FFS.

elnino1 Posted on 9/12 17:45
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

And all this talk of the backroom staff all the time.

What the fook do any of us know what goes on behind the scenes, so stop looking for a scapegoat.

Nedkat Posted on 9/12 17:47
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

Have a look at his record while he was manager of Middlesbrough FC. Have a look at the displays and the total lack of excitement while he was manager of Middlesbrough FC !! He's a crap manager, and you'll begin to understand that, when he screws up the England team ....

FFS !!

bigchanges Posted on 9/12 17:48
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

If u are happy with a manager 'learning' I'm delighted for you.
Meself - I'd prefer a successful team playing good footy. U don't get that with a rookie.
Suppose can't blame The Gate we should blame Gibbo.

elnino1 Posted on 9/12 17:50
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

Ned, shall we discuss his record?

Only cup in our history.
First two seasons ever in Europe.
European final.
Two FA Cup Semi finals.
Highest ever league finish in Prem.

Now YOU may begin to understand if you watch last seasons DVD. I'm by no means suggesting it was thrill a minute but some of the games were excellent. I give you: Arsenal, Chelsea, Man Utd, Spurs, Bolton, Roma, Steaua, Basle, Charlton (FA Cuo) to name a few.

Now, get some perspective.

Nedkat Posted on 9/12 17:55
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

The real challenge is always to do well in the Premier League. His record in the PL is abysmal, and listing a few games out of the hundreds he managed over, where we played well, isn't going to convince me he was a success .. In fact, I still think he's a shythead !!

There, there's my perspective .. and my opinion !!

bigchanges Posted on 9/12 17:56
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

I'm with Ned on the SMAC analysis. spot on

elnino1 Posted on 9/12 17:58
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

Ned, just exactly how was his record in the PL abysmal???

HIGHEST EVER PL FINISH.

The games I listed were from last season alone from the top of my head. I could do a full list but it would take too long. We never looked like being relegated whilst he was in charge, a far cry from the Robson days, and just what this season is looking like shaping up to be.

My best ever memories from this club were all delivered by Mac, so if i am alone in saying this, then so be it.

THANKS FOR THE GOOD TIMES STEVIE MAC!

--- Post edited by elnino1 on 9/12 17:58 ---

Nedkat Posted on 9/12 18:01
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

El, I'm talking about the wins, draws, and losses type of results. I stand by what I said, his record was abysmal ...

Glad to see the back of yer, Stevie Mac, and don't think about returning !!

HUMBERRED Posted on 9/12 18:06
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

Blaming Steve McClaren for our current position is one of the funniest things I've read for a while! Bravo!

Nellmad Posted on 9/12 18:09
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

I think Smac is the luckiest manager Boro have ever had, if you think about it, in the league, Zendens goal shouldn't have stood and if it wasn't for the bald italian we would have been dead and buried in Europe. if you look at Smacs record in the league it was poor, and the entertainment was the worst I have ever seen, and I go back to the early 60s, I'm with Ned on this one

swordtrombonefish Posted on 9/12 18:10
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

Not blaming him for it, blaming his remaining influences - negativity, which I believe still exists through his former underlings.

Under SMAC, a fan ran on and threw his ticket at him to make a point, was that down to the fantastic football played?

elnino1 Posted on 9/12 18:11
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

Unbelieveable.

Now he is the luckiest as well as the worst.

HUMBERRED Posted on 9/12 18:14
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

Our most successful manager ever FACT! a major trophy won, a european final reached, two seasons in European competition and two F.A. cup semi final's reached.......Not bad I would say.

elnino1 Posted on 9/12 18:15
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

Well done Humber, some perspective.

swordtrombonefish Posted on 9/12 18:16
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

Summing up?

"It was the best of times, it was the worst of times"

Nedkat Posted on 9/12 18:16
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

The facts are there ..

If this present team is the only one you've seen, and your support only goes back four or five years, then I can understand. I've been a supporter for forty years, stood there on the terraces back in the 60's, to the Riverside Stadium. All those years produced some fascinating teams, and some wonderful football, plus some real lows. The only fascinating thing about McClaren's reign is me wondering how he gets those teeth so white ..

elnino1 Posted on 9/12 18:18
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

And in those times Ned, how many trophies did we win, how many European finals did we get to, how many times did we finish in the top flight top seven?

Nedkat Posted on 9/12 18:20
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

In all those times, El .. the teams I saw, played football with some passion, like they really cared. Smac knocks that out of his players, and replaces it with a wind-up device that makes them all defend defend and block.

Get over the Carling Cup and Europe, there was a lot more shyte than there was anything to cheer about !!

Nellmad Posted on 9/12 18:21
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

I just hope that one day we will get a manager that doesn't sh*g someone who works at the club, behave yourself Gareth

njtraf Posted on 9/12 18:22
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

YOU CAN NOT BLAME STEVE MCLAREN FOR OUR SHOCKING PERFORMANCES THIS SEASON!!

Only a complete fool would blame a former manager for the current teams poor situation!

SMC managed to get us from abolutely fook all to the UEFA Cup quarter final via the FA Cup with the bulk of this team, also he managed to then secure us a 7th place Premiership finish, yet again, with the bulk of this team, oh, and then we reached the UEFA Cup FINAL!!! With EXACTLY the same team, bar Queudrue (NOT MACCA'S FAULT) and JFH (SOUTHGATE'S decision to release him).

The blame for the bad performances recently is falling purely on Southgate's chopping and changing and putting square pegs in round holes. Today against Wigan he played ARCA in CM??!! FFS yeah, Rocky hasn't done great but give the lad a chance when the opportunity arises!!

Before Southgate is blamed though, i hate to say it but the blame falls on Keith Lamb and Steve Gibson. I'm sorry but if they would have had the gonads to sack some of the backroom staff for Martin O'Neill to come in then Southgate could have been his understudy for a few seasons and O'Neill could have taken us through the transitional period from McLaren!!

I'm sorry but NOBODY has any right to blame Mclaren for this seasons p!ss poor performances. And I am categorically NOT a fan of Mclaren either!!!

elnino1 Posted on 9/12 18:23
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

So nothing then?

Whilst I admit it was not thrill a minute for much of the time, the stick our most successful manager of all time gets is beyond me.

I seen so uch passion in those games in Europe it made me proud, from the terraces also against Basle when only 24000 of us turned up.

Fantastic times.

Eindhoven was something else. No other manager who managed this fantastic free flowing football that Stevie Mac couldn't, ever got us close to something like that.

--- Post edited by elnino1 on 9/12 18:25 ---

Nedkat Posted on 9/12 18:26
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

IN MY OPINION ... his influence is still there, and if you sensibly sit down and look at his record in the PREMIER LEAGUE where it counts, then he was a poor manager...

elnino1 Posted on 9/12 18:27
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

Ned, there is absolutely no denying he is our most successful ever manager.

Nedkat Posted on 9/12 18:30
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

Jack Charlton and Bruce Rioch achieved so much more than that nugget ... !!

Nellmad Posted on 9/12 18:30
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

Spot on Ned, he may have gone but his ghost remains, gareth needs to get rid of the backroom staff and get his own men in. I think thats why O'neil wouldn't come, because Gibbo wouldn't let him bring his own staff in.

elnino1 Posted on 9/12 18:33
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Ned, come on now mate, are you on a wind up or drunk?

Nellmad Posted on 9/12 18:34
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

Hey El, I'm one of the brigade who would rather lose 4-3 and be entertained, than draw 0-0, remember when Rav was here, that season had everyone talking about the Boro, even though we got relegated, and the fans came back the next season, I would sooner be entertained in the Championship than be bored in the Premiership

elnino1 Posted on 9/12 18:35
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

Well I'd rather be successful. Thank god our Chairman agrees.

Nedkat Posted on 9/12 18:35
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

Do you honestly think that winning several games to get to the final of a fluff cup, is better than the achievement of taking a team of youngsters from division 3 to division 1 in consecutive season, with no money .. ?

Jeesh, you've been led down the path by a man with large teeth !!!

bigchanges Posted on 9/12 18:36
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

Give me Jack Charlton any day.
It is appalling to compare SMAC to him.
SMAC took this club backwards. The last 18 months in the prem we were woeful.

elnino1 Posted on 9/12 18:37
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

Yes I do, as the history books will show his achievements.

No doubt Sir Bruce did spectacularly, but success is judged by league finishes and cups and Mac stands on his own on that score.

Downilson Posted on 9/12 18:39
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

Nedkat - appreciate your honesty and I agree with most of what you said.

On a personal level Steve McClaren did unforgiveable things - turned a lot of people I know who had been fans for several decades off attending Boro matches. Thats a huge thing, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who has those stories to tell.

On a club level he's responsible for the malaise we currently enjoy. Signing the wrong players at the wrong times, employing the wrong tactics, failure to take the club forward sufficiently in the league.

Southgate should have done A LOT MORE with the money he was given in the summer and the intangible capital he had (UEFA Cup Finalists, good reputation etc) but he has failed also.

Its time we were all fcking honest with ourselves, re-assessed McClaren's glorious reign and try and learn some lessons that we can take into our relegation battle.

Nedkat Posted on 9/12 18:40
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

NINO.... OK, I see the facts are not going to open your eyes, and your entitled to your strange opinions. I'll believe in the reality of 40 years of supporting my team, and the reality of the last four seasons of total unimaginative and dreary football ...

Watch what he does for England ....

--- Post edited by Nedkat on 9/12 18:42 ---

Nedkat Posted on 9/12 18:42
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

I agree with you Down, totally agree ! We should have learnt from those lessons, we need to have a very serious look at the whole club, and we need to make the necessary improvements to keep us in the PL ..

green_beret20 Posted on 9/12 18:48
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

I'll credit McClaren for the cup win always, but the rest of those achievements were purely from the windfall what the cup brought itself.

Our first season in UEFA, our highest ever league finish and the subsequent UEFA qualification, it was all down to the one carling cup win. The club was on a high for one season.

Now the windfalls well and truly dead I only hope that the club can handle it, that this drop doesn't turn into a freefall.
This now is actually one of the worst seasons in a long time to have had a change in management and not only that but to appoint somebody with no previous experience of management.

Im not confident at all that Southgate can turn this around, the club has got major readjustments to make since leaving UEFA and I donít think Southgate is able to cope with it.

jacko06 Posted on 9/12 18:48
msg for swordtrombonefish

'fellow strugglers like wigan'.Speak for yourself lad it's europe for us..

bigchanges Posted on 9/12 18:52
re: msg for swordtrombonefish

Lets face it. Gibbo held on to SMAC too long (he'd prob still be here if England had not come calling, appointed Southgate too early and kept the same back room staff that took this club backwards.
Wonder what Gibbo thinks now?

Ste_1986 Posted on 9/12 18:54
re: msg for swordtrombonefish

Gibbo will think...housten we have a problem !

Nedkat Posted on 9/12 18:54
re: msg for swordtrombonefish

Green Beret, put like that it all seems to fall into place .. I just hope we can dig our way out of this particular pile of horseshit ...

Big, difficult to blame a man who has made so many right decisions, but your point is well made ..

--- Post edited by Nedkat on 9/12 18:56 ---

elnino1 Posted on 10/12 2:13
re: msg for swordtrombonefish

Ned, the facts DO speak for themselves and you have chose to ignore them.

MAC = Legend

Grumpy_Paul Posted on 10/12 2:55
re: msg for swordtrombonefish

I agree with Ned to some extent but am thankful to Smack for the successes.

Trouble with Smack is that he appears to have left a legacy of the cautious dull footbal that has pi$$ed people off for the past few seasons and driven them away despite the occasional magical moments. Football it a part of the entertainment industry and under smack we rarely entertained except for a few real Dramas.
Ferguson, never mind Southgate couldn't change that overnight.

--- Post edited by Grumpy_Paul on 10/12 2:56 ---

joseph99 Posted on 10/12 8:13
re: msg for swordtrombonefish

Ned has a point. Mac made progess post the Blobbo regime, which let's face it I fokin monkey could have achieved. Key decisions such as, shall we get shot of Vickers and Flemeing et al to imorove our capability? ERMMMMMMMMM! He failed to build on the initial progress and made far too many p!ss poor signings and endorsed too many financially crippling contracts on players that should have been moved on elsewhere. A manager should be only judged on league performance - not on lottery-driven cup competitions. As for the CC Cup win: I am more grateful to Wenger than Mac.
We finished higher in the top flight under Charlton and we also won the Anglo Scottish cup without any real investment into new players.

--- Post edited by joseph99 on 10/12 8:14 ---

scoea Posted on 10/12 8:43
re: msg for swordtrombonefish

How can anybody possibly argue that McClaren had anything but a positive influence on our club? We have had success the like of which we may never see again, he turned us into a professional and well run club without spending too much money. His influence is still being felt but in a very positive sense.

The most important person within the club is Gibson. I trust his judgement on all things Boro and if he felt for one moment that McClaren had caused this negativity within the club then why would he choose continuity over a new approach. Why would he trust that someone without any experience whatsoever could do a good job? Why would he keep the structure put in place by McClaren?

I also find it laughable that the Cup[ win, the UEFA Cup runs and final as well as the highest placed Premiership finish get dismissed and forgotten and McClaren reign dismissed as a cause for our current plight.

joseph99 - what utter tosh. McClaren had precisely nothing to do with contracts. That was entirely the responsibility of Lamb. None of them are financially crippling. In any event, I don't think he made too many errors in the transfer market. Your argument that his cup win was nothing more than luck and should be ignored when judging him is equally baffling.

This is beyond pathetic and I for one find it astonishing that despite those huge, huge successes and given where we have come from and where we were when he took over that McClaren is still not given any praise or thanks for what he achieved. Yes he made mistakes and he was by no means perfect but by god he provided me with by far the best moments I have had as a Boro fan.

--- Post edited by scoea on 10/12 8:44 ---

joseph99 Posted on 10/12 9:10
re: msg for swordtrombonefish

So Scoea:

So a manager/coach does not interact with the chief executive on the value of players, length of stay required, his value relative to other players at the club..........or are you suggesting it is all Lamb's fault for signing the likes of massimo, Parlour, Rickets, Mendieta, Alan Wright, Alan johnstone, Greening/Wilson package, .........

I find your defensive tosh delusionary.

scoea Posted on 10/12 9:22
re: msg for swordtrombonefish

Nothing defensive about it at all. The manager does not tell the club how much to pay a player or how much to pay the selling club. They advise as to how much they rate the player and factors such as age, ability and length of current contract then get taken into account by the Chief Exec. So, to blame McClaren for the nature of contracts offered to players that you allege are crippling is naive in the extreme.

joseph99 Posted on 10/12 9:24
re: msg for swordtrombonefish

You have argued against yourself. In my initial comment I used the word "endorsed" which is exactly what he did. So if they are not crippling why can't we bring in even more players and why the comments of "cutting cloth?"

MyBoro Posted on 10/12 10:04
re: msg for swordtrombonefish

elnino - highest league finish I believe charlton got us higher. 5 years under SMac and only one top ten finish with a net spend over £50 million was poor.

Cups saved him, Carling Cup was the best and he earned his money at half time IMO, however we have to be happy that Arsenal played the reserves in the Semi.

UEFA cup is a poor competition but Roma and Bucharest are good sides that we beat. Humiliated in the final. Looking at the league he waqs poor and arguably with the given resources and starting point Robson did better. We were certainly in a better position when he left.

Good riddance, just a shame we then failed to get a manger with experience AGAIN.

Perry_Combover Posted on 10/12 10:22
re: msg for swordtrombonefish

myboro, keithcool, big changes, george1507... the same sad mackem?

i appreciate what mac did for boro, dealing purely in facts he IS our most successful manager ever.
however i think, when england came calling, he left us with a relatively weak and imbalanced squad, in that sense we ARE still paying for MACs reign.
our defence was poor (ugo and southgate himself past it, parnaby not good enough to be 1st choice), lack of creativity in mf, no right winger.
southgate has addressed the problems in defence - huth will be a top player for boro, woodgate - top class, xavier - much better than parnaby and a useful stopgap for a season or two. its obvious now that we need new blood (claret) in mf.
euell - rubbish, southgates 1 mistake in the transfer market so far.
arca - was bought as a lb but isnt. however he wasnt expensive and showed encouraging signs yesterday that he could play a role in mf.

overall i think southgate is doing his best to recover the situation with the weak squad he had when he took over. this season would be a success imo if by the end of it we are still a PL club, hes shipped out mendi, ugo and hopefully parlour and brought in a couple of good players in midfield

Rondo_1 Posted on 10/12 10:24
re: msg for swordtrombonefish

Perry, you are dead right.

He addressed the defence and now has to look at the forward line and midfield.

Euell was a stop gap who will only play when we are deseperate.

He needs a box to box midfielder and a decent right winger and another top forward.

Roll on Jan

20_Briggsy Posted on 10/12 10:31
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

I've never heard so much tosh in my life. People just cant let it go can they? Under McClaren we had the most succesful period in the clubs entire history. But yet still some people are never happy. Its these people who are also part of the problem. They wanted rid of McClaren, but yet attendances this season are down. Yesterday was the lowest league attendance at the Riverside! Expectation levels on teesside are way beyond reality.

If we can win another trophy and get to a uefa cup final in the next 5 years I'll be over the moon.

scoea Posted on 10/12 14:50
re: msg for swordtrombonefish

Why can't we bring in any more players? I must have imagined the signings of Huth, Woody, Arca, Euell, Yak, Rocky, Pog in the last two seasons then. McClaren did not endorse any contract at all. He advised as to who he wanted but the financial terms of each contract have nothing to do with McClaren or Southgate now.

The cutting cloth comments are directly related to Gibson's vision of the club standing on it's own two feet. Part of McClaren's remit was to trim the squad and reduce the wage bill in order to ensure that the club were not reliant upon massive transfers and wages in the future. Are you seriously suggesting that towards the end of the McClaren reign Gibson thought "sod it, we've trimmed enough let's give out some massive contracts"? Get real. McClaren has left us with a solid base from which to work, to argue otherwise is nonsensical.

Sez_Les_Boro Posted on 10/12 15:09
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

Steve McClaren was an untried manager himself when he came here. He was abreast of modern thinking though, and I believe he knew he may make himself unpopular if he was to make Middlesbrough successful. Which, in my opinion, he did. We never looked like relegation, Carling Cup, and a UEFA Cup Final. But maybe he was one of the forerunners of dour, cautious football about which the clamour of unrest from fans of other clubs is now increasing.

I also think the club were in a way victims of circumstance. There was a crossroads after the UEFA Cup final. With the delayed fiasco of the England Manager appointment, and McClaren being bundled in at the last minute after the circus of Scolari et al, this detracted from the Middlesbrough situation and too much time had past and Middlesbrough were not left with enough time to sort things out properly. The euphoria of the UEFA Cup had evaporated and decent players weren't approached in time as the club hastily prepared for the new season.

MyBoro Posted on 10/12 15:50
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

Perry - not a makem I'm afraid just another fan who didn't buy all the hype with the great gingerness.

Senor_Chester Posted on 10/12 18:37
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

scoea, you know for a fact then that managers have nothing to do with players wages and transfer fee's do you?

scoea Posted on 10/12 19:07
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

I know for a fact that MFC managers don't.

Senor_Chester Posted on 10/12 19:48
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

How?

scoea Posted on 10/12 19:49
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

Been through it before and been met with derision. Can't be bothered to go through it again.

joseph99 Posted on 10/12 21:21
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

Scoea: why do you persist in twisting an argument with your use of words. It really is very tiresome and makes you appear stubborn, arrogant and suspiciously defensive. I have said quite simply, surely simple enough for you to understand (you started the swipes btw):

"endorsed too many financially crippling contracts" - that is not suggesting that he set up the contact, but has said to Lamb, in the words of Andy of Little Britain, "I want that one" - so Lamb then asks what kind of value do we place upon him relative to player x. So Mac then says, "he was highest valued player in the world so I want him on a long contact, he must be good." Lamb then offers a player too much money over too long a period. Lamb uses the coach as a consultant, as you rightly pointed out. So in this respect, he is fookin useless and made many mistakes. Therin lies my point. Cappiche.

Regardless of what you think: your view is a minority one and his lack of ability in footballing circles is now as badly exposed as his shiny teeth. The same shiny teeth that were detested at the club.

I will never see your point of view and vice versa.

scoea Posted on 10/12 21:55
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

I am not twisting anything. If my view is a minority one, does that make it wrong? I don't think so.

This started with you arguing that McClaren had endorsed crippling contract. In very basic terms that is factually entirely inaccurate. There are no "crippling contracts" much less any that McClaren endorsed.

The facts remain that during his 5 years he was an absolute success. To argue otherwise is absurd and to dismiss the achievements in those five years is blinkered.

I can and accepted his failings. He wasn't perfect. I cannot and will not accept that he is to blame for anything and everything that goes wrong now. He has left us with a good group of layers to work with, young players with experience beyond their years and strong foundations to build upon.

None of this will ever convince you because you are blinkered and have a personal axe to grind which clouds your judgement.

joseph99 Posted on 10/12 22:12
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

Even Kieth Lamb agrees with my point, describing many of Mac's signings as reckless. If we get relegated de to "solid" team that Mac left us with then it may well be crippling. The fact remains we need to ship out a large plethora of palyers that Mac wanted lamb to sign up which necessiated luctrative deals. We now need to ship out this same deadwood in order to avoid relegation. You seem to suggest a notion that MFC is cash rich. I suspect it isn't. Where did I say everything this season is down to a Mac regime? Twist.

You can fool some of the people some of the time.........

The_Commisar Posted on 10/12 22:44
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

hang on a mo...........
a) Smac did NOT sign the players - the players were signed by Middlesbrough football club with Gibso and Lambs finger prints all over each ane every deal.
b) Smac shiped out 19 players when he arrived, we are left with a squad that is better in all areas than the one he inherited from Robbo

If you looking for reckless signing of players you might want to ask the question who approached Man City to sign Barton, or who pulled the plug on the deal that would have sent Ugo to WBA.
For better or worse Gibbo and Lamb are as cuplable as Smac if we are looking at signings. All of them played politics and all of them are as guilty as each other.

scoea Posted on 10/12 22:47
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

So we've gone from "crippling" to "may well be crippling if we get relegated"? Hmmmmm.

Lamb may or may not agree with some of the signings made but to suggest that Lamb has ever suggested that the transfer fees or contracts were reckless is a falsehood. Lamb is directly responsible for agreeing these contracts and ensuring that they are within budget and are not "crippling". So are you suggesting that he is criticising agreements that he himself made?

Name me the deadwood on these crippling (or what may be crippling if we get relegated!?!?!) contracts that we need to ship out. There aren't many.

joseph99 Posted on 10/12 23:15
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

You read throroughly on a selective basis.

So you are suggestng that MFC are so financially sound that they can afford any number of players to simply warm the bench or the seat in the West stand as they are not good enough to command a first team place. That is sustainable financial model for MFC in your eyes is it? Lamb has blamed Mac - quite blatently in most peoples' eyes. Your defence of Mac should be applauded but is well and truly misplaced. This comes the same person that insists that MFC is making progress year on year. Look at the table - we are now staring relegation in the face as we have so much imbalance and inadequacy in key areas.

Well I suppose if your assertions that MFC do not have any financial concerns are true then we all look forward to Southgate signing a few more players in January.

"Get real. McClaren has left us with a solid base from which to work, to argue otherwise is nonsensical". WTF!!!

scoea Posted on 11/12 8:09
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

You argue that I am selective and twist facts in which case I would be interested if you could tell me exactly where I have said we can "any number of players to simply warm the bench or the seat in the West stand as they are not good enough to command a first team place." or where I have said that MFC "do not have any financial concerns". You can't because I haven't.

You made a statement that McClaren had endorsed several crippling contracts that were directly to blame for our failures in the transfer market and part of the problem causing our current plight. I have proven you wrong on each and every count. Lamb has never and will never publicly criticise the contracts given to any player. What he did criticise was the choice of signing. That is a subjective matter and one which Mr Lamb is entitled to have an opinion upon.

1. We have not failed in the transfer market. If these contracts were so crippling then why did we sign (in the last two seasons) Yakubu, Rochemback, Pogatetz, Arca, Huth, Woodgate and Euell - all of whom have featured heavily for the first team?

2. Where are these crippling contracts been given? You have still not answered this. Name names.

3. Produce Mr Lamb's quotes regarding these contracts and McClaren being blamed.

The facts are that you can't. I am not defending McClaren for the sake of it, far from it. I am defending him because what you are saying is completely and utterly wrong.

Win first major trophy.
Qualify for Europe for the first time.
Reach last 16 of UEFA Cup at first attempt.
Finish in highest ever Premiership place.
Qualify for Europe via the league.
Reach first major European Final.
Win Youth Cup.
Bring through more home grown players than any other Premiership manager.
Field a team almost entirely made up of home grown players.

These are what McClaren achieved during his tenure. As a result of that Gibson felt so strongly about keeping McClaren's structure in place that he dismissed many managers in favour of an unproven, untried and inexperienced new man, not to mention handing McClaren and his staff new 4 year deals.

Are these really the actions of a man who has witnessed McClaren's negative influence destroy the foundation of MFC from within?

Your assertions simply don't add up and are based upon your irrational dislike of McClaren rather than the facts.

DybuksChampion Posted on 11/12 9:04
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

I blame Walter Rowley. Illness my @rse.

SuperBokSupper Posted on 11/12 9:16
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

yeah he was a right tvvat that maclaren wasnt he.

il never forgive him for helping us to win the carling cup and getting us to Eindhoven.

The selfish (unt leaving us to manage England eh.

Fook me, ok he wasnt brilliant but he didnt do too bad eh.

FFS

Nedkat Posted on 11/12 13:59
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

Some people don't seem to have the ability to put their opinions forward, without the childish name calling ..

McClaren was not good for my club !! Get over the friggin' fluff Carling Cup, he was not successful in the Premier League, and his football methodology made me want to throw up !

The_Lizards_Jumpers Posted on 11/12 14:13
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

Haven't read any of this boring diatribe, but I see it stems from one of the biggest moaners on this board, who always appear to be those who put the least financially into the club.

Nedkat Posted on 11/12 14:22
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

See what I mean .. ^^^

Childish name calling ....

The_Lizards_Jumpers Posted on 11/12 14:24
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

Not at all, just an observation that those that do the most moaning arent the ones who have to trek up and down motorways watching the club, put holidays in at work to go to away games, spend their hard earned on tickets and travel etc etc.

Nedkat Posted on 11/12 14:29
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

I don't find the need to explain anything to you, your not worth the effort.

skiprat Posted on 11/12 14:38
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

You're doing yourself absolutely no favours by saying stuff like "Get over the Carling Cup win", why should anyone "get over it"? It was probably the best day of supporting this club.

Also, "he was not successful in the Premier League, and his football methodology made me want to throw up"

The second part maybe, but he was more successful as anyone you've seen manage us in the Premier League, so again you're making yourself look stupid.

The_Lizards_Jumpers Posted on 11/12 14:41
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

You mean you cant justify why you do all the whining despite you putting nothing into the club yourself.

Nedkat Posted on 11/12 14:42
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

I'm stupid am I ?

Winning a Carling Cup means you play around 8 games, and win them. Doing well in the PL is where the real challenge is. If you look at his results over the five years he was in charge at the Boro, you will hopefully start to understand what I am trying to say .... if not, then maybe I'm not the stupid one !!

Nedkat Posted on 11/12 14:47
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

I'm not sure where you get this 'whining' crap from, if someone's ideas and opinions don't fall exactly inline with yours, you revert to calling them a whiner ? Grow up, son ...

The_Lizards_Jumpers Posted on 11/12 14:54
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

I'm not the one throwing my toys out of the pram though simply because someone disagrees with me.

skiprat Posted on 11/12 14:54
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

We finished in a mixture of the top half and lower half of the table. Not great, but certainly better than constantly flirting with and normally being relegated.

I know which I prefer.

Nedkat Posted on 11/12 15:02
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

Liz, if you think I'm throwing toys anywhere, you certainly have a strange outlook on life. Your the one doing the name calling, your the one who got all bent out of shape because someone else has dared to have a different viewpoint. Your the one calling me "one of the biggest moaners" etc etc ...

Go on, get away with yer ! Yer big daft kid ..

Skiprat, for the money he spent, and the wages he earned .. He was pathetic !!!!

mowbrays_number_4 Posted on 11/12 15:05
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

There are a lot more bigger clubs than Boro who would love a part of what we've had the last couple of years.

skiprat Posted on 11/12 15:08
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

How is the money he earned a comparative of where he should have been in the league?

If you are going to bring up stuff like that, then you have to be objective (which you clearly can not be) and include his cup results, which he was a favourable manager in. Our best ever manager in fact.

Without figures in front of me, I'd guess that Birmingham spent a decent amount and probably pretty close to us, yet look where they are.

Nedkat Posted on 11/12 15:36
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

Why do you have to have that dig in there ?

"(which you clearly can not be)"

What's wrong with you ? Are you insecure in your boring little existance ? Are you unsure about your own sexuality ? You don't seem to have the manners, or the know how, to have a simple discussion ?

skiprat Posted on 11/12 15:50
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

I'm not sure which is funniest to be honest, you're blatant blindness when presented with facts, or you turning round and saying that other posters are getting wound up/trading insults when you are clearly the most wound up poster in this thread.


Nedkat Posted on 11/12 15:53
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

Trouble is, me little skiprat .. you haven't presented any facts.

I've no beef with you. My opinion is different to yours, and it's obvious from many of the posts above, that a lot of people agree with me ...

I'll leave it at that.

skiprat Posted on 11/12 15:59
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

"I don't care what anyone says about the Carling Cup, and the Uefa Cup"

You are on the wrong page straight from your opening statement. You cannot ignore the Carling Cup win and UEFA run because these two achievements represent our best historical moments.

Fair enough if you have a personal axe to grind about McClaren, but the facts are that he was our most successful manager.

What would you rather have had, finishing 12th, 14th etc and winning a cup, or finishing 5th, 6th and winnign nothing? I know where I stand on it.

rick4974 Posted on 11/12 16:00
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

ton up

Nedkat Posted on 11/12 16:13
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

I'm not on the wrong page. Just because I'm not on one of your pages, doesn't mean your version is the only version, and bugger anyone else who might have a different version ... !

I have no personal axes grinding anywhere. I happen to think McClaren was not a great manager, I also happen to think his tactics were bloody awful, and I also happen to think that the Carling Cup win was great ... But, in terms of achievement, it doesn't come anywhere close to reaching the top 4 in the Premier League.

Sceptic_Frank Posted on 11/12 16:25
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

After the group stages, the UEFA cup consisted mainly of SMac getting the tactics wrong, us going well behind and then throwing on 4 strikers. It's hardly the most well crafted of cup-runs. Don't get me wrong, those games were bloody fantastic but any mug can go gung-ho in the latter stages of a cup tie. We got lucky and by the time we'd reached the final, we were all lucked out and got woefully exposed.

If you argue that reaching the final is acheivement enough then you must also accept that Robson was very successful.

Southgate should be given at least this season to turn it round and bring in his own players. I personally think he was left with weak squad which had long standing deficiencies that we'rent addressed. He started by suring up the back (entirely the right thing to do) and will hopfully move onto Mac's ridiculously unbalanced and uncreative midfield next.

As for never looking like getting relegated under Steve Mac, there was a game less than a year ago when we were getting beaten 4-0 at home, a player was in tears and people were invading the pitch. I was a lot more worried then than I am now.

Good riddance to Mac. Southgate, I'm right behind you. It's a bloody big and long job, pity people can't see just how big.

scoea Posted on 11/12 17:21
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

Whenever this sort of debate arises there is a theme that emerges from those that argue that McClaren was not successful and was bad for our football club that I cannot reconcile or accept.

Firstly, you ask us to ignore the single greatest achievement in our history (Carling Cup) and one of our greatest achievements (UEFA Cup Finalists) when assessing McClaren's reign. i cannot for the life of me see why those achievements should be ignored. Prior to his appointment we, as supporters, demanded Cup success. That was what we wanted, it was what Gibson wanted and, ultimately, it is what we got. This is a fatal flaw in the attacks of McClaren, you ask us to ignore his successes in order to justify your argument.

Secondly, even if we were to ignore those successes you then ask us to consider his league performance. Now, from the outset I readily accept that both Rioch and Charlton achieved more in the league. However, once again you fail to look at where we were when we took over and what he did achieve in the league.

We were relegation certainties when he took over and yet we never really looked like going down at any point during his reign, with the possible excpetion of the 4-0 Villa result but even then we weren't in the bottom 3. In addition, in 02/03 we had one of the best home records and highest home goals tally. he got it right at home. In 04/05 he achieved the highest ever Premiership finish and qualified for Europe via the league for the first time in our history. Again, a notable achievement for a team that just 3-4 years earlier had been relegation fodder.

He did all this by spending around £9m per season, a modest amount compared to many of our rivals.

Finally, you ask us to believe that Southgate has been left with nothing to work with. On the contrary, we have experienced youth players upon whom future success can be built. The reason that the likes of Taylor, Downing, Morrison, Cattermole, Davies etc can be trusted in the first team (and often have been our best players) is a direct result of McClaren giving them their chance. In addition, we still have a lot of very good senior professionals to supplement that youth. Yes the squad is unbalanced and yes there are problems but can anyone really argue that there is major flaws that can't be fixed or that there is nothing to work with?

I'm sorry but there are entirely too many successes that you are asking us to ignore to believe your theory that he was not good for our club and has done more harm than good.

Vinny_Garstroke Posted on 11/12 17:24
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

Relegation certainties when McClaren took over?
Gross exagerration.

Nedkat Posted on 11/12 17:25
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

Good post, Frank .....

Perry_Combover Posted on 11/12 17:34
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

i would argue there was major flaws in the squad which southgate inherited. the defence was shambolic. so much so that southgates signed three defenders, four if you include arca. our midfueld was and is still severely lacking. southgate should be given the time and monmey to correct that as he has done the defence.

scoea Posted on 11/12 18:09
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

Gross exaggeration? Really? Have you forgotten that Venables had to come in a perform a miraculous rescue act?

Nedkat Posted on 11/12 18:19
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

Michael Ricketts

In January 2003, Middlesbrough spent £3.5 million to sign him from Bolton. He failed to recapture his goal-scoring form, netting just four times in 38 matches.

scoea Posted on 11/12 18:22
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

He didn't cost £3.5m.

Eric Djemba Djemba did though.

MyBoro Posted on 11/12 18:31
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

miraculous rescue act? another gross exageration.

When Mac took over we were an established premiership club but robson was out of ideas. venables showed what a manger could do.

Mac spent a lot of money - his net spend in the years he was hear is greater than Robson by a long way (Net not Gross)

Now in the five years we got into ther top ten once - actually finishing 7th and getting into europe. As we never did it again it appears to be a blip and was helped by the injury to Mendi which led to Downing getting a start.

Add to that the defensive style and I'm with ned, he did not do a good job here in general. There were some notable exceptions but all in all he has a bad league record for the money spent.

finny Posted on 11/12 18:43
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

I've been quiet for too long and have a couple of points.
1. Perry - I'm not a mackem. You are just being silly
2. The SMAC debate - clearly we loved the Carling Cup success and our time in Europe. Great for the fans and the club.
You have to take into account the Prem League tho'. And lets face facts. For the last 18 months of SMACs reign our form and performances were (with one or two notable exceptions) poor. The best evidence comes from the 'stay away' fans. I know many 'long standing' supporters who thought his stifling boring tactics were ruining this club.
You can argue all you want I can see both sides.
3. The Southgate debate. I believe he has to totally (lets say 90% plus) carry the can for this season and to try and blame other managers is a kop out. He has been tactically naive and some of his selection policies have been bizarre.
Now, we should, of course accept this because he is, in fact, naive. The difficulty comes with the consequences!
If we were a Championship side with the possibility of being relegated to the First Div I would be unhappy but may be prepared to take it for 'Southgate's learning' experience.
The possibility of being relegated to the Championship is significantly different and petrifies me.
You can argue 'we won't get relegated'.. 'you can argue we will get relegated'. I believe there is a significant risk.
That is where the problem lies.

20_Briggsy Posted on 11/12 18:48
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

This is exactly the reason why some of our fans need educating!

Perry_Combover Posted on 11/12 18:49
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

?? i never said you were a mackem

when i said myboro i was thinking of goboro so apologies to myboro

Nedkat Posted on 11/12 18:52
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

Thanks for your input, Briggsy .. And thanks for the old adage of you believing everything you say is right, and everybody else is wrong .. Now get back under yer McClaren duvee, and give yerself a severe thrashing.

Big_Shot Posted on 11/12 18:52
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

What people choose to forget is that 2 seasons ago we were realistic challengers for a CL place. We spent most of that season in the top 6 and but for injuries to 2 key players at the turn of the year we could have realistically got that 4th spot. McClaren had put together a very good side. He aslo tried to re-sign Geremi that January, which would have been an excellent bit of business and would have made a big difference.

Sadly that summer, we didn't sufficently replace one of our best players in Zenden, whilst another who had enjoyed a good first half of the previous season, Ray Parlour, really began to struggle. Then to make matters worse Downing had to miss 4 months. Hence us struggling last term. So we were 3 first teamers down from the previous season.

So basically McClaren had assembled a really good side, however his failure to strenghtening our midfield that summer was a major part in our poor league form last term.

But hey he wasn't the only one who didn't see just how much of a loss Zenden would be, most fans weren't fussed about him leaving.

So last season league wise was a major disappointment, but mainly due to the fact that he had put together such a good side previously and we had a real chance of pushing on in the league.

--- Post edited by Big_Shot on 11/12 18:54 ---

Nedkat Posted on 11/12 18:55
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

He stayed 18 months too long, and no matter what your dreams are full of, he became a failure. I have no idea why The FA hired him for the England job ? Maybe the FA know FA about football ...

Big_Shot Posted on 11/12 19:00
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

But the thing is, it was only last season that was a step backwards in terms of league form as we had been progressing and improving each year. However the UEFA Cup run made it a memorable season, and its something that I'm glad we had, and it was only achieveable by what had happened previously. So therefore I don't agree that he stayed too long at all.

MyBoro Posted on 11/12 19:01
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

apologies accepted perry

Sceptic_Frank Posted on 11/12 19:04
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

Whoever Southgate selects, someone will always disagree. There were those that called for Cattermole to be a regular - well he's played, not overly impressed and we've not won. Others think Rochemback just needs time and will become a boro great - he's had plenty of chances and never hinted at consistency. There are those that say Boateng is indespensible and those that think he's lost it. Arguments that Massimo should get a run / others that massimo should be shot.

Maybe, just maybe, the players we have are not good enough. Is that Southgate's fault? No.

I can't believe that people think a manager should come straight in and immediately be able turn an unbalanced team, with a leaky defence and no creativity into a consistent outfit.

We've not been consistent for as long as I can remember. I was never McClaren's biggest critic and thought there were some who jumped on him far too quickly but after 5 years it just didn't seem as if he'd particularly moved us on in terms of the football played and the consistency of results.

I will genuinely always be grateful for the cup win but please don't let it paper of the sizable cracks. Whether you think he was great or not there are many fans who don't and demonstrated that with their wallets. That cannot be ignored or written off as fickleness.

Nedkat Posted on 11/12 19:08
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

Remembering of course, that things may well have got even worse if some brave soul hadn't of marched on the pitch, and chucked his season ticket at the inept tvvat !

Senor_Chester Posted on 11/12 19:10
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

Mac maybe the most succesful but he certainly has not been our best. Let's face it Robson is also a hairs breadth away from being our most succesful manager but he is also nowhere near our best.

Apart from a few games, when it was good it was only ok, and when it was bad it was mindless and soul destroying football.

Glad to see the back of him personally.

--- Post edited by Senor_Chester on 11/12 19:14 ---

green_beret20 Posted on 11/12 19:13
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

Nice play on words Big shot.

Its a pretty safe generlisation to make that actually we were stagnate in the league for three seasons, looking around mid table.

I'm certianly not going to argue the toss over 12th and two finishes in 11th place, are you?

It was the carling cup that gave this club a one season boost in terms of performance, nothing else.

It seems funny how the very next season we dropped faster than a sack o S8it.

--- Post edited by green_beret20 on 11/12 19:15 ---

Big_Shot Posted on 11/12 19:19
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

Its the Boro, back to back 11th place finishes were decent enough for us. The season after the Carling Cup we had a far better side and therefore we finished higher, nothing to do with a 'boost'.

sasboro Posted on 11/12 19:20
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

under smac we were a great cup team but poor league team. apart from the first half of the season when we finished 7th the rest of tghe time the league form was pretty poor.

Until southgate can change the coaching staff we will continue to play we are now.He cant be his own man and feel fully in control.I worry that the coaches are influencing him too much.and do long term damage to his reputation.the football has been like this for a few season now. why are the coaching staff so rated that we couldnt let them go?


"HIGHEST EVER PL FINISH."

you can tell some fans only started following boro when the premier league was formed. Doesnt anything count pre sky money days?

Considering smac spent close to 50M(including sales) then our league form has been poor but a good cup record. but robson had a good cup record too.

--- Post edited by sasboro on 11/12 19:23 ---

Big_Shot Posted on 11/12 19:23
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

Its actually a lot more impressive if you compare it to seasons throughout our entire history. One of our highest ever finishes, sounds even better.

green_beret20 Posted on 11/12 19:28
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

Without the cup we wouldn't have had that better team you speak of.

We're talking about McClaren here, stop me if I'm wrong but are back to back 11th place finishes the measure of a good manager now? I always thought it was achieving great things (greater than 11th place especially so) with whatever you have at your disposal.

If I'd wanted a secure mid table finish every season I'd rather we hired Kevin Keegan or Robson.

Big_Shot Posted on 11/12 19:31
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

Not really. But for the Boro its okay and ultimately the team developed and we improved to first win a trophy, then to spend the entire season around the top 6. We were actually progressing as a side.

--- Post edited by Big_Shot on 11/12 19:31 ---

sasboro Posted on 11/12 19:43
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

peter reid got man city and sunderland to 6th and 7th finishes and look how poor we thik he is as a manager?what ever happened to brian little? hoddle..etc

i do think a lot of managers have good couple of years but sustaining it throughtout their managerial career is the difficult bit without fading away. when smac leaves england in a couple of years and gets a job in the premiership we will see if he can show his quality. ie was aqflash int he pan or carries on proving he is a top manager

green_beret20 Posted on 11/12 19:44
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

So the guaranteed UEFA place made no matter at all to our signings?

Yes for Boro its OK, but it's hardly the calling of a good/great manager. Plenty of other mid table managers out there.

We boosted our team for one season, found out UEFA wasn't the honey pot it was made out to be and subsequently the team was slashed again. What, did McClaren have a sudden tactical brain storm that lasted approximately one season?

Course he never. It seems unusal how our team, in just the very next season was only capable of competing in one competition, and it certianly wasn't the league was it.

At best he's an average manager that quickly joined the ever growing queue of defensive football thinking.



--- Post edited by green_beret20 on 11/12 19:52 ---

Big_Shot Posted on 11/12 20:23
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

I don't think I've actually said he was a good/great manager for us though. However he certainly did better than what some on here seem to think. For a few seasons we were steadily improving and progressing, which is something any manager deserves a bit of credit for.

sas, whats this 'we' about Peter Reid. His top 7 finishes were good achievements at Sunderland, do you not agree?

--- Post edited by Big_Shot on 11/12 20:25 ---

scoea Posted on 11/12 20:23
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

He spent more money in the 02/03 season than any other and that was without UEFA Cup football.

Did Viduka, JFH, Yak et al sign for UEFA Cup football? I doubt it very much.

Until last season there was tangible league progress in each season McClaren had tenure. In the final season we did not have a good league campaign but that is understandable given that McClaren was faced with 64 games (because of his success in the Cup competitions) and clearly made a conscious choice to go all out for Cup success. It didn't work but it gave me one of my best days as a Boro fan. I wouldn't change last season for the world.

Once again, these are his list of achievements during his 5 year period as manager:

Win first major trophy.
Qualify for Europe for the first time.
Reach last 16 of UEFA Cup at first attempt.
Finish in highest ever Premiership place and one of our highest in history.
Qualify for Europe via the league.
Reach first major European Final.
Win Youth Cup.
Bring through more home grown players than any other Premiership manager.
Field a team almost entirely made up of home grown players.

Complaining about a couple of mid-table finishes in amongst those achievements is, quite frankly, pathetic. In fact, I think at a cost of a very modest £9m per season that is unbelievable success.

sasboro Posted on 11/12 20:39
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

i agree about reid at sunderland and man city, good league finished but then he lost the plot. was that his 3 year purple patch.
will smacs purple patch be the 3 seasons at boro? i'm quite looking forward to where he goes after england and how he does. he wont get any of the big teams interested and may not get the financial backing that he got at boro. i have feelign that if his timing is right he may end up at newcastle.



Win first major trophy. - well done like i say we were a good cup side but generally poor in the league. didnt brian little win the league cup one?
Qualify for Europe for the first time. - well done,millwall also qualified for uefa cup. where is their manager now?
Reach last 16 of UEFA Cup at first attempt. well done again, but the group stages are a joke and last 16 should be minimum. bet roeder gets them there too
Finish in highest ever Premiership place and one of our highest in history. - again plenty of cash to spend and build after robson. we made europe on the back of the form pre xmas thjat season which we never reached again. football existed before premier league. i think we have spent more seasons in top flight than in the lower leagues


Qualify for Europe via the league. - as above, see peter reid and sunderland. they would ave been in europe if we had more euro places
Reach first major European Final. - yep well done, we got good draws, great result against roma, trid our best to chuck away the gaes against bucharest and basel when he got the tactics all wrong and we went armageddon both times.

Win Youth Cup. - not relevant. few make it and manager doesnt coach the youth team. we have reached the final in the past
Bring through more home grown players than any other Premiership manager.- i remember the infamous fulham game where we LOST the game. lets see how many are still playing in 4 years time

Field a team almost entirely made up of home grown players. - as above. whats the point if you lose the game. i could put together a team of local people

"Complaining about a couple of mid-table finishes in amongst those achievements is, quite frankly, pathetic. In fact, I think at a cost of a very modest £9m per season that is unbelievable success."

yes ONLY £9M per season!!!i think we must be in the top 10 spenders in the premier league in the last 5-10 years so we are under achieving in the league

like i says smac made us an excellent cup team but pretty poor and under achieving in the league and now like nedkat says the ghost is still at the club. or is it a big uefa cup final hang over?

--- Post edited by sasboro on 11/12 20:41 ---

scoea Posted on 11/12 20:42
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

Thanks Sas, you have proven my point better than I ever could have done. It is highly amusing that each and every one of those achievements is dismissed so easily. I pity you, I really do.

sasboro Posted on 11/12 20:45
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

so you gonna admit that smac made us a good cup team but poor league team???

scoea Posted on 11/12 20:46
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

No Sas, I just think you have demonstrated brilliantly the points I have made in this thread and those made in Bandito's thread about Teesside mentality.

sasboro Posted on 11/12 20:48
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

so look at mcclarens average league point per season, it aint that good really and not much better than robson.
dont think you have proved anything really, i've said we were a good cup team but poor in the league. thats true but i dont expexct you to admit it in public

scoea Posted on 11/12 20:50
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

I am hardly going to admit to something I don't believe Sas. You're hilarious.

green_beret20 Posted on 11/12 20:54
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

The main reason Boro secured Yakubu as opposed to Newcastle was that we had UEFA in the bag. Yakubu told the press in portsmouth as much, after he them to join us.

Sorry Big_shot, with your latest Mr Middle man speech I'm no where near establishing where you actually stand on this anymore.

Scoea calm down big fella, I read that list first time in amongst the 100th times you've posted it. Do you keep that list saved in a word document favorited for this site?

MyBoro Posted on 11/12 20:57
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

a couple of mid-table finishes = 4 out of 5

Lucky arsenal played a second team
Two good results in the UEFA - Roma and Bucharest

League is the bread and butter and he did not produce the goods for the money spent.

sasboro Posted on 11/12 20:58
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

Scoea, have you checked our league record under smac then? he had one good season, compare that to peter reid who had 3 good finishes as a primier league mananer.

I've been telling you and briggsy(bill beswick) for 3 years our league form has been poor and it still is now! Why is it poor when you look at the quality of players we have or had over the 3 seasons or so! Something is not right. How can portsmouth be flying with a manager like rednapp? and yet again big sam is consistently above us in the league. Do you never think that ourcoaches can not get the best out of the players>

Nedkat Posted on 11/12 21:01
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

Some people are quite content to sit there and accept 'average' . I am not one of them ! I want success, I want nae ... "DEMAND" improvements !! Over his five seasons, I did see some wonderful achievements, but single achievements once or twice in five years is not exactly being successful. Constant success, improving year after year, to a point where we could become a challenge to whoever happens to be considered in the top three. Playing wonderfully entertaining football, in front of full houses of happy Boro supporters.

Have we got the club we deserve ? Lamb spoke those words, and I felt a chill down me back. I was worried, and I've been proved right (again) .. McClaren's record in the league is poor to middling, we didn't improve, he buggered off, and Southgate's been left with a tired looking squad who's confidence is lacking.

One of the biggest things that McClaren gave us, was his total lack of knowledge on how to play good link up football. His tactics were horrendous, leaving fans with a serious worry about their club, and some of those fans left and never came back. Those fans decided there was better things to do on a Saturday afternoon, than getting more and more frustrated and disappointed by that jerks tactical not know how !!

sasboro Posted on 11/12 21:07
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

we all seem to think we have better players,coaches,managers than bolton,portmouth,reading,villa,wigan,man city,everton, newcastle..but for some reason they are above us and some of them have ben for last few years. so whats wrong at our club?

scoea Posted on 11/12 21:07
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

Sorry Ned, I don't buy any of that. You are entitled to your opinion of course but you dismiss his successes far too readily and concentrate on some fairly weak arguments about his failures.

GreenBeret - I have posted it a lot and nobody, not once, has been able to argue against it.

Sas - your opinion is worthless. About two weeks ago during the course of an attack on Southgate you admitted that you had finally seen the light at the UEFA Cup Final and accepted that McClaren was, in fact, a good manager for us. Now you have changed your tuen again to suit your argument on this thread. I find it highly amusing.

sasboro Posted on 11/12 21:12
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

i've said that smac made us a good cup team but that doesnt mean he made us a good league side. and i do think smac is better than southgate.

so if you think my opinions are worthless then yours are too!

you stil hazve explained why we under achieve so much in the league for a few years. just look up the table to see!

Nedkat Posted on 11/12 21:13
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

"fairly weak arguments" ..?

Did you watch his team perform ? Did you see the 7-0 dicking at Arsenal ? Did you watch the Aston Villa match ?

In my honest and 40 years as a Boro fan opinion, he put the worst team I have seen out on that field of play, and the fans who don't understand that, the fans who are totally blinded by a Carling cup, and a Uefa Cup final .. need to look back with their most honest eye, and ask themselves if they were satisfied ... ?

I'm not trying to sell you a feckin thing, I am stating my own veiws on a fooking message board !!

sasboro Posted on 11/12 21:20
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

What i dont understand is the continous reference to finishing 7th in one season, well what about the other 4 seasons when we finished below mid table. dont they count or been wiped from history? 1 good season doesnt mean we are a good legue side for another 3 seasons. he got slightly more points on average per season than robson, but smac lost more league games than robson in 5 seasons

--- Post edited by sasboro on 11/12 21:22 ---

Nedkat Posted on 11/12 22:13
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

Exactly ! Despite the jabs and the name calling, I stand by what I say.

Some people are more easily pleased ...

scoea Posted on 11/12 22:55
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

I see your 7-0 at Arsenal and raise you a 4-1 against Manure or a3-0 against Chelsea.

Nedkat - I don't believe you have watched Boro for 40 years if you can argue that he put out our worst team during that period. it simply is nowhere near true.

Sas - you're backtracking again. If you can, read my posts. I have referred to the other league seasons.

I think the pair of you should answer one question. It's June 12 2001. McClaren has just taken over. You are offered the list above as his achievements during his 5 year stay. Do you take it?

Nedkat Posted on 11/12 23:01
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

I'm 48 years old, I was watching the Boro back when I was 8 years old. Don't call me a liar !!

Big_Shot Posted on 11/12 23:08
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

Green_Beret, I actually stand where I always did whilst he was here. Neither at one extreme or the other. I think that overall with all things considered he did a decent enough job, which I am fine about. Plenty of plus and negative points along the way. Good wins, bad defeats, good signings, poor signings, good performances, awful performances.

My biggest disappoint about his time here was his failure to strength at 2 key times. In the January transfer window of the 04/05 season (although he did try and get Geremi) when 4th place was possible and then the following summer, which played a major part in our poor league form last season. We were at a point where good signings would have kicked us on further and we missed out. We should have bought Aaron Lennon for £1m when he was available.

But saying all that, I don't think we're that far away from having a decent team again. We just need a shake up in midfield, and bring in at least 2 good midfielders and we'll get back on track. So he didn't leave us in as bad a state as some think.

So like I said, overall a decent job which could have been better. I think thats fair.

--- Post edited by Big_Shot on 11/12 23:13 ---

sasboro Posted on 11/12 23:14
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

no one is back tracking, he made a good cup team and a poor league team. thats all there is too it. his tactics were geared to keeping it tight and cautious which worked well in cups but not particularly well in the league. you cant keep harping back to winning a cup cos plenty of managers have done that and disappeared into obsurity. the problem was that he couldnt turn the cup form into the league form and like nedkat says the tactics are still being used im the league. like i said teams like bolton have consistently finished above us in the league and we only had 1 top half finish under smac and we lost more league games than under robson. under smac we lost more league games than we won!
smac wasnt that good int he league and pretty medioca..anyway i've finished with this thread so please take time to look at the league tables over the last 5 years and please be honest with yourself and question if we really performed well in the league and didnt under achieve.

i look forward to smac taking on his next league job in about 2 years. wonder if he wil turn into a hoddle or a bobby robson?

elnino1 Posted on 12/12 0:14
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

I return to this thread and still see some blatant ignoring of the facts by some.

Ned, without being petty and by no means questioning your validity as a supporter, perhaps you are not as passionate about the cup win and European final because you were in the states and not here watching/participating? As I say not a dig, just a guess.

I think as mentioned in an earlier post, just look to his last ever league game in charge to see what he left us with = the best youth system in the land and a will to play them. FANTASTIC.

And to those who say Sevil,le exposed us and we were embarassed, take a look at La Liga and Seville's results. They are a fantastic team who on their day could beat ANY of our top four, just look at what they did to Barca in the Super Cup Final FFS.

I cannot argue with those who say he wasn't always entertaining but for this we got a cup and five productive years.

As Scoea said, in 2001 if you were given a list of what he did, you would have accepted it with glee, but since then there has beensome massive ego's amongst many of our fans who now expect far nore than we are capable of delivering.

As I say, to finish my point, look at what he did for our youth system.

Then again, some blinkered people on here will probably give crddit to someone else for that.

Sceptic_Frank Posted on 12/12 0:35
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

Can McClaren really be held responsible for the success of our youth system?

Scoea is just as selective with the 'facts' as anyone. His list contains several points that are basically the same thing and when someone raises a valid point he just says they are not worth discussing etc.

McClaren did some good things whilst with Boro. The first cup win meant so much but to an impartial observer (which none of us obviously are) it was no great feat. Consistency is the marker in any sport and I don't think McClaren ever achieved that. That is my opinion and I accept others that disagree.

Gerrard Houllier brought much silverware to Anfield but every Liverpool fan I know was happy when he left because the league is the ultimate gauge,

I will repeat again - whatever your view on the fans that no longer attend, it is a big problem for the club and one that occured during McClaren's leadership. How can a side that has supposedly acheived it's greatest success lose so many regulars? To dismiss it as 'fickleness' or typical 'Teeside mentality' is turning a blind eye to the underlying problems of the McClaren reign.

Nedkat Posted on 12/12 0:37
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

I couldn't get to any of the European games. But, I did fly home for the Carling Cup final. It cost me a fair few bob to get there and back, but I wouldn't have missed it for the World. Great day out, cried like a baby, and to see my team lift that silvery cup was a fine experience.

My point is, it's good we won something at last, but the league is where it's at .. Nothing compares to the consistent and massive effort it takes to win the league. That's why I take my hat off to Sir Alex, he's achieved so much.
Productive years under McClaren ..? If staying in the PL is productive, then I'll give yer that. I want more than that !!!

scoea Posted on 12/12 7:45
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

Sceptic - I can't see how I am being selective with any facts. I am not asking you to ignore league position or to ignore the negatives of his reign. I am neither naive enough nor blinkered enough to argue that he was perfect. He most certainly wasn't. I agree with Big Shot. Basically, there were two key moments when we had the chance to forge a very good team but because we failed to buy players (and keep Zenden) we never quite got there. What I cannot abide is this consistent argument that we should ignore the Cup success he had.

In the league we progressed very well until Zenden left and we failed to address the right sided problem and, arguably, the central midfield proble./ We were a whisker away from being a really good side. That shows, to me, that McClaren was getting it right.

Ned - I wasn't calling you a liar in any way. All I was saying was that you cannot argue that any of McClaren's teams were the worst in the last 40 years.

Sas - read my posts again. I am not asking you to look at just the Cup win. In fact, I am not asking you to ignore anything, unlike the anti-McClaren faction which expect those that think he did a good job to ignore fairly major events. I happen to think that he was a success in the league on a variety of levels including one of our best ever finishes that resulted qualification for Europe for the first time in our history.

Nobody has yet answered my question and I don't think any of you can without undermining your entire arguments, which have become clouded by personal distrust and dislike of the man rather than the manager.

Not one of you can honestly say if you were offered what he achieved in 2001 you wouldn't have been delighted.

Lincoln_Exile Posted on 12/12 8:00
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

Ned, how long have you been away, including RN career and living in the US of A?

Perry_Combover Posted on 12/12 10:19
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

as usual the truth lies somewhere between the two extremes. on balance (fantastic cup runs, poor league form in the main)he was a reasonably successful manager with boro (given our past history). however his often dour negative brand of football and his failure to connect at all with the boro faithful has meant his departure is not mourned by the majority of boro fans

Nedkat Posted on 12/12 13:29
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

Lincoln, I left home at 16, Xmas 1974. 32 years ago ..

Blimey ! That sounds like a hell of a long time !! It is a long time ..

Scoea, I managed to read your post there. Are you one of those College Lecturers ? Or maybe a Vicar, or the head of the local Sea Scouts ?



--- Post edited by Nedkat on 12/12 13:38 ---

Lincoln_Exile Posted on 12/12 13:40
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

A beardless boy of 16, how many years did you do in the Navy?

Nedkat Posted on 12/12 13:45
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

I was signed up for 22, which meant I was in until I was 40. Any time done before your 18 doesn't count. I took early retirement after 19 years, and moved to the USA in that year.

red_rebel2 Posted on 12/12 14:11
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

I'm with Big Shot. Mac was neither the messiah nor the anti-christ.

He took Boro from the post-Robson unbalance, bloated chaos and built a solid but unspectacular team that in its life cycle did things that no Boro team had done before. He deserves credit for that.

But like any other manager he had a shelf life and the reason he is so badly thought of here despite putting a trophy in the cabinet is that like Robson he exceeded it. Had he gone after Cardiff he would have had a fantastic reputation on Teesside.

Instead his legacy is a mixed one, not because of achievements on the field because no one can argue with those. But there is more to a club than just the nuts and bolts of results.

The reason so many are hostile to McClaren is because of his methodology, his ideology. His approach was exactly what was needed after Robbo but his main strength within the club soon became his main weakness without and he started to wear down the crowd's emotional spontaniety as he enveloped the team in a cautious cloak of stifling scientific professionalism.

Whatever the results on the pitch the fact that he alienated so many supporters and lost 10,000 fans in his reign (despite unprecedented success) must be taken into account.

His style of football and his public persona were big turn-offs and created a crowd that was divided against itself, had the chairman slating him live on air and ultimately undermined the collective strength of the whole.

Nedkat Posted on 12/12 14:17
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

"as he enveloped the team in a cautious cloak of stifling scientific professionalism"

I felt a stir in me loins reading that, bootiful that is !!

scoea Posted on 12/12 14:55
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

Rebel - that is a very accurate summary of pretty much how I feel about his reign. I was never suggesting that he was the messiah. He certainly had faults and flaws but, for me, I would gladly accept those same flaws all over again to experience the huge successes he achieved.

One point I would pick you up on though is the loss of 10000 fans. That may not be strictly true in that prior to his final season (or possibly 2) there had been a steady, if unspectaculr, rise in attendances. I accept that they have reduced somewhat now but is that due to McClaren alone? Ticket pricing, saturation, nature of the league and a disconnection from fans in general are all equally culpable.

Nedkat Posted on 12/12 15:27
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

Scoea, 4 points of order here ...

1. Tosh

2. Bolloxxx

3. Codswallop

4. Balderdash

IT'S ALL HIS FAULT, I'M RIGHT AND YOUR WAY OFF !!











red_rebel2 Posted on 12/12 22:45
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

Scoea:

I accept that the decline was not completely down to Mac. It has been very unfortunate for Gibbo that Boro's Golden Age came as teh tide was shifting in football.

But as thousands of people who have walked away despite the success made it very clear they were leaving because of Mac and his brand of football I think he has to take a big slice of responsibility. His PR was appalling. A smoother operator with teh same results would have been a God on Teesside.

scoea Posted on 12/12 23:23
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

I agree to a certain extent but do you not accept that McClaren was a useful focus for the angst felt generally and that those turning their backs on MFC would have done so in any event?

red_rebel2 Posted on 12/12 23:47
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

Maybe there is some tranference. Maybe. But why would fans be looking for an excuse to leave during a golden age?

Isn't it a key part of management to seek to include the fans, to make sure that the upturns are translated into bigger gates and better buzz. That was Mac's real failing, his inability to communicate with fans and build up political capital.

If anything his every utterance was seen by a lot of people as variously stupid, insulting or provocative. His personal cachet was in negative equity and could actually undermine the unity between team-fans-manager-board that you need at a progressive club. That is why he is seen by so many reasonable people as if not a failure then certainaly as a "negative" factor.

That said, I am seeing it in terms of the political dynamics. What I can't understand is the vitriol and passionate personal abuse he can arouse on here. I think it stems from people having to hold someone responsible for their broken dreams.

scoea Posted on 13/12 7:35
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

That is what I can't reconcile Rebel. It was a golden age and for me there were no broken dreams. It was the best time to be a Boro fan because we were genuinely successful. That may not happen again in my lifetime, if ever. I accept what you're saying about his persona and his seemingly never ending ability to rub fans up the wrong way but surely his successes cannot be questioned? Instead, we are asked to ignore those achievements and accept that he wasn't good for our club. How can that possibly be?

Nedkat Posted on 13/12 13:29
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

Golden age ? If that was a golden age, then I'm off to support Whitby Town. The football played under that man was absolutely abysmal many many more times than it could ever be considered as 'golden' . The after match interviews became a joke, it was as if he was doing all he could to convince everyone he was doing well at the Boro. 10,000 supporters saw right through the bullshyt, and did their talking with their feet. If your happy with that, all I can say is some people are very easily satisfied.

scoea Posted on 13/12 13:36
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

The 10000 fans referred to by rebel is inaccurate. It is also unfair to lay the blame at McClaren's door. Presumably he is to blame for the average attendance at almost every Premiership club dropping?

It is difficult for anyone to argue that it wasn't a golden age. The standard of football is a very subjective matter and, as such, is not tangible. Given our history how can you, whilst keeping a straight face, argue that the successes set out above do not constitute a golden age?

Nedkat Posted on 13/12 13:40
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

Very easily !! We won one Carling Cup, OK first silverwear and all that, but looking back - his failures far outweighed his successes. I truly believe he had the money to spend, and he spent it, and he failed to produce anything resembling a decent side. His defensive tactics, and his shiny teeth bolloxx, made a whole lot of those fans dislike the man. I'm not alone with these opinions, and I'm pleased other people can see the light through the manure being spread.

scoea Posted on 13/12 13:45
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

His failures outweighed his successes? Give me a break. That is just simply not true and makes you look very bitter and suggests that you have a personal dislike that is clouding your judgement.

As for this money that he has supposedly spent, he averaged a spend of about £9m per season. That is modest for a club that won a Cup, did well in Europe, reached 7th spot and qualified for Europe via the league before reaching the Final.

Nedkat Posted on 13/12 14:25
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

"just simply not true" ...

Yes it is, I think he was a failure, I think he screwed my club up, I think he's going to be the worst England manager in history.

TRUE !! He was crap ..!!

scoea Posted on 13/12 14:42
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

People used to THINK that the world was flat.

BTW - I think you are on a fishing trip but I am happy to bite.

Nedkat Posted on 13/12 14:51
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

NO FISHING ALLOWED

PRIVATE PROPERTY

KEEP OUT

To be honest, you bring one or two (but mainly only one) good point to the conversation. In my heart, I truly believe McClanger was a very poor football manager. He wound me up so tight, I could have strangled the plonker for some of his tactics. In the cold light of day, I still believe winning the Carling Cup was a fabulous occasion, but stepping back from all the fru-fru, it's easy to see how a team can win half a dozen games, and pick up some silverwear, it's even easier to see how being consistently great for a whole season, is so difficult to achieve. His record of wins losses and draws, speaks for itself, his record of consistency speaks for itself, his record of being successful speaks for itself... He was a poor manager !@!@

scoea Posted on 13/12 15:01
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

You ask for league consistency. After being a yo-yo club for the vast majority of our recent history and with spending only £9m per season on average I think he was a success in the league.

McClaren took over a relegation threatened team. I would have thought consistent mid-table finishes that were maintained or improved upon year after year until his final season and which peaked with a 7th placed finish (one of our best ever) that qualified the team for Europe for the first time in our history would be considered reasonably, if not spectacularly, successful.

Throw in two successful UEFA Cup campaigns (one of which culminated in a Final appearance) and a first ever major trophy and I just cannot see how an argument that he was "not good for my football club" can be sustained.

Out of interest, which of the points I have made do you consider add something to the conversation?

Nedkat Posted on 13/12 15:03
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

This one ....

"People used to THINK that the world was flat"

You discard whatever other people say in a rather patronising manner. Little annoying, when someone doesn't agree exactly with your views.

scoea Posted on 13/12 15:10
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

Come on Ned, that was only a little joke. I don't think I have patronised you in any way on here (with that one exception). I am simply trying to understand how your argument can be sustained. Once you put aside his persona and his interview technique and look at what he actually did, I cannot see it.

Do you consider Robson's tenure was our golden era? Or Rioch's? Give me more insight into what you are thinking because I simply don't understand where you are coming from.

Harborwave Posted on 13/12 15:19
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

Ned: You're 100% correct about the man. He knocked the heart and soul out of the club. It should be embarassing for anybody to seek to support him. For one success, the club has lost all it's passion. I predicted during his first season where he would take us. The luck and the run of the ball went for us for a change during the Carling Cup run and even in the final.

The boring negative dross that was served up by him would have been tolerable only if it was to lead to success and later to an improvement in entertainment value. However, it was getting progressively worse under McClaren.

He has now started to knock the soul out of the national team. As I've said a hundred times or more on here, he will never make a good manager.

Nedkat Posted on 13/12 15:31
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

To be honest, it depends on your definition of 'golden'. I don't think we've had any golden years in our existence. I remember going in the 60's, when Stan Anderson had built a nice little team, we ended up close to promotion for several seasons in a row, yet we always went away from the last match disappointed, not quite making it.. Then Jack Charlton arrived, and we had some gold then, playing good football with a pretty decent team. I still believe if Charlie Amer hadn't of crapped on us from up high, and we'd of bought one good striker, that team would have gone places. We did get promoted, and I was happy as a pig in muck ! Didn't last long though, and before we knew what was happening, we were being liquidated. I was at sea at the time, under the water with very little news coming in. A terrible time for all true Boro fans, incredible nerve wrenching tension waiting to see what would become of the Boro. We survived, with one tea-bag and a very young team, that plummeted to Div 3. Rioch comes in, and we experienced a rise in fortunes, we were going upwards on the rollercoaster. Great times, not exactly golden. more like sheer bloody resistance to allow us to survive. Seasons after Rioch were difficult, and some of the managers were quite McClanger like in their tactics. Bryan Robson shocked me when he was announced, I felt a great tide of excitement, and the future looked rosy. Didn't last long though, and the rollercoaster took us on it's downward plunge. Grim football for awhile, and in comes McClanger .. been pretty grim since then, apart for the odd highlight.

I'm not happy with the 40 years I spent supporting the Boro, I tend to look at golden as being something along the Liverpool side in the late 70's, or the Man Utd of today. And if you think that's me talking out of me sphincter, then let me say two words to you ...

Nottingham

Forest

Nedkat Posted on 13/12 15:48
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

Thank you, Mr.Wave ... I know there's others like us who can see further than a couple of papered over cracks ..

scoea Posted on 13/12 15:52
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

Again, the definition of a golden era is very much subjective. What I meant was a golden era as far as our history is concerned. Of course our achievements cannot be compared to the likes of the great Liverpool or Man Utd sides but within our particular history I think it must be considered a golden era.

I think your argument is more about McClaren's demeanour and his style of play rather than an attack on his achievments, though I accept that you were not happy with what he did in the league (I disagree, but once again that is very much a subjective thing).

That being the case you now argue that he has changed the ethos and ideas of the club and it's staff to such an extent that they can't break his stranglehold, which is restricting us. Again, I think I now understand your view but again, I disagree with it. You could point to a negative and defensive attitude and there is no doubt that a caution still exists that Gareth wants us to shrug off but I would point to his restructuring of the club, his development of the coaching set up, the success in the Cup (and what I argue was success in the league) as the major foundations upon which we can build. I would point to the experience he gave to young players upon whom we can rely as another strong base from which to work.

For me, the attitude and caution can be cast aside with relative ease and I agree that Gareth could be the man to do it. It will take time and there will be teething troubles but there really isn't that much wrong within the club.

In other words, I don't see the things that you are clearly very concerned about as major problems. They are fairly easy to overcome given that the foundations laid by McClaren are relatively strong, even if you disagree with the methods he adopted.

Nedkat Posted on 13/12 16:17
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

The foundations laid by McClanger are what's worrying me. For a start he built them on unstable ground, and he didn't use any rebar.
The coaching staff is still there, they need to be moved on. That is one step the Boro should take to wrestle the team away from McClanger's cold fingers.
As I said earlier, some people's ideas of success is a long way from anothers ideas. I won't be happy until we show some decent consistency in the PL, and we start to gather some points and some well earned respect.

(Mind you, another Cup wouldn't exactly piss on me cornflakes) ...

scoea Posted on 13/12 16:28
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

If your concerns are correct and there are such real problems, how do you reconcile the fact that Gibson, a man that has almost single-handedly saved our club and progressed it beyond all recognition, not only gave a new long term contract to McClaren prior to him leaving but also made it abundantly clear that the existing structure and coaching set up were so good that they had to be retained at all costs?

Nedkat Posted on 13/12 16:40
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

Look back over what you said earlier, success is subjective. I believe Gibson and Lamb have decided that staying in the PL is enough to make the club seem successful. A lot of people think we punch above our weight, but I tend to look at it from another perspective. Why shouldn't we punch even higher ?
When you consider the consequences of dropping down a league, the monetary effects are astonishing. Teams who get promoted from the Championship, suddenly find tens of millions thrust upon them, teams who drop down, find their cash boxes are less then bountiful.
Maybe the clubs current ambitions are to simply stay as a PL club, I'd love to believe they look at a higher goal.

scoea Posted on 13/12 17:15
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

Are you therefore saying that Gibson is settling for mediocrity or worse with his decision to appoint Southgate and retain the current coaching set up?

Nedkat Posted on 13/12 17:25
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

Don't be putting words on my keyboard !

Here's what I said ...

Maybe the clubs current ambitions are to simply stay as a PL club, I'd love to believe they look at a higher goal.

scoea Posted on 13/12 18:01
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

So that is exactly what you are saying!!

Nedkat Posted on 13/12 18:20
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

My dear Scoea, do you fully understand the words "Maybe" and "I'd love to believe" ..?

Those words mean there's nothing set in stone in my beliefs, and that's because I DON'T FOOKIN' KNOW ....

outmac Posted on 13/12 19:49
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

totally correct Nedkat , still the whiff of Mac around
place . Never took to him .

Nedkat Posted on 13/12 19:50
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

Thank you, Outmac !!

ARE YOU WATCHING,
ARE YOU WATCHING,
ARE YOU WATCHING,
SCO-E-A !!! ????

onthemap Posted on 13/12 19:53
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

Scoea, maybe Gibson has made the first real mistake since taking over?

Nedkat Posted on 13/12 21:01
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

Whhhooooooopsss !!

--- Post edited by Nedkat on 13/12 21:02 ---

Link: Those teeth ..... @|@

Nedkat Posted on 13/12 21:01
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

Ring any bells ?

He's pleading for more time to get it right ...

GETTAEFOOKYERCOONT !!

Did you it took three Chinese blokes, and four large elephants tusks, and 18 months, ....to whittle out those giant teeth ...?

Link: Those teeth ..... @|@

green_beret20 Posted on 13/12 21:43
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

What great foundations are you talking about here?

I thought the whole point of success was that you built on it.

We dropped like a rock last season in the league and this seasons even slighty worse and thats without playing extra UEFA football??
From my view it could quite easily be another five years before we even get a sniff of a UEFA place again and thats starting from scratch.

We had one good season straight after the carling cup and that was it. That was only through what the extra benefits of what the cup brought, it wasn't McClaren at all. You've really got to stop listing them as seperate achievements.

I'm sick of reading this bo**ox of how we're only two players short of being a good side. Fact is if we had good foundations we wouldn't be sitting 15th in the league.

--- Post edited by green_beret20 on 13/12 21:44 ---

Nedkat Posted on 13/12 23:12
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

Spot on, GreenBeret20 .. absolutely spot on !!

At least some people haven't accepted this as the greatest spell of their Boro supporting career, and I'm pleased that others want more from their club.

scoea Posted on 14/12 8:17
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

I've got to stop listing them as separate achievements? Why is that exactly? That is the single most foolish thing said on this thread. In one breath you are saying that success should be built upon and wasn't and in the next you are saying that the success of the Carling Cup was the only reason we had a very good league campaign the following season i.e. we built upon the Cup success!! You can't have it both ways.

In his first season he kept us up, in his second he added more attacking power and we were superb at home for the most part but were let down by our away form - nonetheless, we moved up the table and were never in danger of relegation and indeed flirted with the Euro spots for a while. In his last three seasons he won the Carling Cup, enjoyed our best ever Prem finish (and one of our best finishes ever) that qualified us for Europe and then followed that up with an appearance in the UEFA Cup Final.

He left us in a far, far better position than he found us.

Lincoln_Exile Posted on 14/12 8:19
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

Is this......

Lincoln_Exile Posted on 14/12 8:20
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

.......the longest ever........

Lincoln_Exile Posted on 14/12 8:21
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

.....................thread that repeats..........

Lincoln_Exile Posted on 14/12 8:22
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

............................itself

sasboro Posted on 14/12 8:41
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..



--- Post edited by sasboro on 14/12 8:42 ---

sasboro Posted on 14/12 8:41
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

"He left us in a far, far better position than he found us."

not so sure abot that.season before he arrived we finished 14th season he left we finished 14th. He has left the team in poor shape as look how tough southgate is finding it. plwenty of deadwood to clear out on high wages just like when robson left. southgate was left to rebuild the defence(who is left from last season) and midfield needs totally rebuilding

--- Post edited by sasboro on 14/12 8:46 ---

scoea Posted on 14/12 9:08
re: The Ghost of Stevie Mac ..

Sas, the season he left we finished in the semi-final of the FA Cup, quarter finals of the Carling Cup and Final of the UEFA Cup. Do you not accept that those competitions may have affected our league form?

Has he really left the team in poor shape? I don't think so. You could argue that Ugo, Mendi, Parlour and Maccarone were deadwood but is that really comparable to the deadwood present when MCClaren first joined? I would suggest not.

In addition, he has given genuine experience to several key youngsters who are now performing well. That bodes very well for the future.

Lincoln - I agree with you. This is getting boringly repetitive. Why don't you all just accept that I'm right.

--- Post edited by scoea on 14/12 9:09 ---