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Buddy Posted on 30/3 12:40
Chemistry - I don't understand....

I've come to the conclusion that either my Chemistry teacher (Dr Edwards deceased) was spectacularly poor at his job, or I should have been less interested in why your finger doesn't burn in a Bunsen burner flame and more in what he was saying.

Because just now I was thinking about water. Now I know that a water molecule consists of two atoms of hydrogen and one of oxygen. What I'm not at all clear on is how water - as in, a body of water - sticks together. What's to stop molecule #1 deciding it doesn't like molecules #2 upwards and sitting on top of a rock instead of charging off down river?

Furthermore, is H4O2 two molecules of water or something else entirely? And if it's something else, why is it? If your answer includes "bonds between atoms", be sure to explain what the bonds are made of.

Finally - if an oxygen molecule is two atoms of oxygen - why?? Wouldn't one placed next to another one give the same result? How can the oxygen atom in a water molecule be an oxygen atom if it would need another one to be, er, oxygen?

Tom_Fun Posted on 30/3 12:43
re: Chemistry - I don't understand....

Water consists of a +H ion and a -OH ion.

The_Boro_Bugler Posted on 30/3 12:44
re: Chemistry - I don't understand....

i'm a chemist !!

your questions make no sense !!

Buddy Posted on 30/3 12:46
re: Chemistry - I don't understand....

They do to me. Perhaps you're a chemist who is poor at communication?

indestructible Posted on 30/3 12:46
re: Chemistry - I don't understand....

Your finger will burn in a Bunsen burner if you hold it there long enough.

The atoms stick together due to electrical charge (positives and negatives).

H402 (I'm not even sure this exists) but it definitely isn't two molecules of water, it would be something else (in fact I'm pretty sure this molecule doesn't exist).

Because of way a single oxygen atom is charged, it never exists as a single atom, oxygen only exists as a molecule (O2) in practical terms. As does Hydrogen, Nitrogen, Helium and the rest of the Halogen group.

As far as I know.

Actually Boromutt is right, Hydrogen isn't a Halogen. Doh!!

--- Post edited by indestructible on 30/3 12:51 ---

BoroMutt Posted on 30/3 12:48
re: Chemistry - I don't understand....

What your chemistry teacher encouraged you to stick your finger in a bunsen flame! The hot bit is the bit which glows white/yellow, the blue bit is unburnt gas. I still wouldn't stick my finger in it though.

H4O2 is two water molecules (2x H2O). Are you thinking of H2O2 which is hydrogen peroxide? Beloved of terrorists and blondes everywhere?

Some atoms exist as single atom molecules others combine as O2 it's to do with the chemical requirement to bind with another atom, they are referred to as "diatomic molecules". So for example Hydrogen is simply H whereas Oxygen is O2 but it's all a bit arbitrary and I wouldn't worry about it. Oh and ozone (as in the layer) is O3 or a "triatomic molecule".

Capybara Posted on 30/3 12:49
re: Chemistry - I don't understand....

Ten years ago I could probably have answered all that pretty quickly but I have passed the limit, which you will one day, where you can still remember most of what you learned at school. And I need to get some lunch. Any road, it's Van der Waal's forces that keep water molecules together, and two water molecules would be 2H2O. H4O2 would be something else completely if it existed. Something to be going on with. It's 30 years since I did any of this stuff.

Oh. Others got in first.

--- Post edited by Capybara on 30/3 12:50 ---

Capybara Posted on 30/3 12:51
re: Chemistry - I don't understand....

But, given the rubbish that's going on elsewhere on here today, this thread is welcomed. By me, at least.

indestructible Posted on 30/3 12:53
re: Chemistry - I don't understand....

However, I'm not sure abour Boromutt's theory on the H4O2 molecule.

ben_mfc Posted on 30/3 12:54
re: Chemistry - I don't understand....

hydrogen bonding - simple as that

ThePrisoner Posted on 30/3 12:54
re: Chemistry - I don't understand....

pH=-log([H+])

Buddy Posted on 30/3 12:58
re: Chemistry - I don't understand....

"it's all a bit arbitrary and I wouldn't worry about it"

That seems to sum up what I suspected.

I should add that H4O2 was entirely constructed by me going H2O x 2. My point was I suppose more valid for hydrocarbons, in that I seem to remember if you multiply the atomic structure of molecule A by 2 you don't get double the amount of molecule A but a new substance entirely, molecule B.

Durham_Red Posted on 30/3 12:59
re: Chemistry - I don't understand....

Water molecules are held together by Hydrogen bonding, which are bonds between Oxygen and Hydrogen atoms in different molecules, these are weaker than the covalent bonds in the separate molecules. The Hydrogen Bonding occurs because the covalent bonds are polarised, the shared electrons are atracted more to the Oxygen atom.

Buddy Posted on 30/3 13:00
re: Chemistry - I don't understand....

How does a hydrogen atom decide who to share its electrons with?

indestructible Posted on 30/3 13:00
re: Chemistry - I don't understand....

Capy is right I think, would be 2H20, not H4O2.

But then what do I know, forgetting that Hydrogen isn't a halogen?!?

Tom_Fun Posted on 30/3 13:01
re: Chemistry - I don't understand....

Van der Waal forces, covalent bonds, It's all coming back now!

Buddy Posted on 30/3 13:02
re: Chemistry - I don't understand....

Was Van der Waal the detective or the chap with the standy-up-hair generator?

YodaTheCoder Posted on 30/3 13:05
re: Chemistry - I don't understand....

Neither, he was the one in Dawson's Creek.

Buddy Posted on 30/3 13:06
re: Chemistry - I don't understand....

See, even cultural references go straight over my head.

Not the same one who spends a lot of time shouting at a chap called Rio then?

Durham_Red Posted on 30/3 13:06
re: Chemistry - I don't understand....

Don't think it's fully understood. As you have to represent the electrons as a quantum wave function, my answer would be that they are bonding with all and none at the same time.

Buddy Posted on 30/3 13:08
re: Chemistry - I don't understand....

*****QUANTUM ALARM*****
*****QUANTUM ALARM*****
*****QUANTUM ALARM*****
*****QUANTUM ALARM*****
*****QUANTUM ALARM*****

This thread has been declared a logic-free zone. Any further attempts at rational discussion will be met with "it just is, unless you look at it". Please return to discussing the appallingly useless England manager and his responsibility for the Iranian hostage crisis IMMEDIATELY.

QUANTUM ALARM ENDS

Durham_Red Posted on 30/3 13:15
re: Chemistry - I don't understand....


Capybara Posted on 30/3 14:00
re: Chemistry - I don't understand....

Ah yes. Hydrogen bonding.

Moses_Kiptanui Posted on 30/3 14:31
re: Chemistry - I don't understand....

water - sticks together. What's to stop molecule #1 deciding it doesn't like molecules #2 upwards and sitting on top of a rock instead of charging off down river?

It's to do with electrostatic interaction of the atoms. A bit like a jogsaw and you find the atoms that are in their happiest energy states together.

"Furthermore, is H4O2 two molecules of water or something else entirely? And if it's something else, why is it? If your answer includes "bonds between atoms", be sure to explain what the bonds are made of."

H4O2 is a water Dimer (H2O-H2O). A dimer refers to a molecule composed of two similar subunits or monomers linked together. It is a special case of a polymer.

Finally - if an oxygen molecule is two atoms of oxygen - why?? Wouldn't one placed next to another one give the same result? How can the oxygen atom in a water molecule be an oxygen atom if it would need another one to be, er, oxygen?It's the electrostatic charge on the ions.

Again it's to do with energy states and being in their happiest form.

Buddy Posted on 30/3 14:33
re: Chemistry - I don't understand....

Aren't you a serial fantasist and general maker-upper of stuff, though?

Moses_Kiptanui Posted on 30/3 14:38
re: Chemistry - I don't understand....

No, that's Lisbonlegend.

Buddy Posted on 30/3 14:41
re: Chemistry - I don't understand....

Ah yes. Sorry.