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Buddy Posted on 11/4 11:45
Great Global Warming Swindle

Right then. Just watched this programme that was on C4 the other week. It presented a convincing case for solar activity being a more likely cause of global temperature increase than carbon dioxide concentration in the atmosphere.

Can anybody tell me if there were any glaring flaws in the programme's case?

Capybara Posted on 11/4 11:48
re: Great Global Warming Swindle

Try looking here.

Link: You might need to scroll down a bit

Chutney Posted on 11/4 11:50
re: Great Global Warming Swindle

The background, motivation and paymasters of the bloke who made it.

Apparently, didn't see it myself though.

Buddy Posted on 11/4 12:13
re: Great Global Warming Swindle

"a bit" doesn't really do it justice, does it? I've just printed off about 150 pages of text.....

Buddy Posted on 11/4 12:19
re: Great Global Warming Swindle

Chutney - none of those would make something that is right wrong, would they?

Chutney Posted on 11/4 12:23
re: Great Global Warming Swindle

Of course not, of course not Buddy. You just keep believing that.

Buddy Posted on 11/4 12:39
re: Great Global Warming Swindle

Right. So the starting point of debate is that, on any issue, anyone who has been paid by an interested party must be automatically discounted?

grantus Posted on 11/4 12:46
re: Great Global Warming Swindle

It's a governmental con to collect revenue.

If there was such a massive threat of our planets future and the governments of the West thought so, why do we invade Iraq and not India or China?

I think there well may be some contributory factor by man to environmental change, but pricing travel and energy consumption out of the reaches of the poor and not seriously addressing the developing world's emmissions is not the way to go.

How about raising the international age of driving to 21 or even 25?

How about forcing the automobile industry to go electric?

It's all a load of rubbish and I think wouldn;t make any difference anyway.

We should prepare for cklimate change, it's been happening since the Earth was formed and will happen long after we are gone, even if petrol costs 20 a litre.

I can't believe that the Western governments are getting away with yet another con on the people.

bandito Posted on 11/4 12:47
re: Great Global Warming Swindle

grantus, great stuff mate. I too think it's a load of sheizer.

Chutney Posted on 11/4 13:26
re: Great Global Warming Swindle

Not necessarily the starting point, but it'd be naive not to consider it. You really pay any attention to the advice given on the back of a cereal packet by Nestle's nutritionist?

number9point5 Posted on 11/4 13:30
re: Great Global Warming Swindle

Programme was spot on for me. Never believed GLW after I read a book by Micheal Crighton a few years ago and looked up all of his reference's etc .

I've been an "don't believer" pain in the arse since. All about a new way to tax the poor and free up the roads for the well off and political elite IMHO.

harry_x Posted on 11/4 13:42
re: Great Global Warming Swindle

Gawd , I know what you mean number9point5 I've just read 'War of the Worlds' by HG Wells and now I'm sht scared of being invaded by Mars.

Remember Micheal Crighton writes novels and is not a scientist.

Now here's one for you ... the earth has it's own way of dealing with excess carbon in the atmosphere. Over millions of years it gets absorbed by plants that die and it ends up being buried in the ground.

In the last couple of hundred years we have been digging up the millions of years worth of carbon and burning it.

This might not be a good idea and the earth may not be able to cope with it.

Arthur_horsfield Posted on 11/4 13:42
re: Great Global Warming Swindle

The legendary Bob Johnson, the weatherman, says there's no way they can predict weather patterns 50 years in the future.

It's extremely difficult to predict the weather 5 days ahead let alone 50 years.

I've worked with these boffins at a nuclear research reactor in Grenoble. I can tell you once they've got an idea they are extremely tunnel visioned about it and they have to comply with what is flavour of the month otherwise they don't get any funding.

The climate is dynamic. What worries me with all these 'global warming' measures is it may trigger another ice age which would be a lot more disastrous than any global warming.

number9point5 Posted on 11/4 13:43
re: Great Global Warming Swindle

Harry_x you are a nob :)

I said after I'd looked up his references..... Make a minor difference don't you think?

Chutney Posted on 11/4 13:48
re: Great Global Warming Swindle

"What worries me with all these 'global warming' measures is it may trigger another ice age"

Yup, you only have to experience the desolate emptiness of the M25 or a Staten Island landfill site to appreciate how likely that is.

Less facetiously, how do you square that statement with your dismissal of climate change as a valid theory anyway?

Buddy Posted on 11/4 14:02
re: Great Global Warming Swindle

(Re 13:26)

Not really, but I wouldn't be able to say either way whether it was right or wrong.

Who CAN we trust in this matter then?

Example: the graph used by Al Gore in An Inconvenient Truth showing a correlation between atmospheric CO2 and global temperature. The programme pointed out/lied/suggested that while this correlation existed it was the wrong way round - ie temperature drives CO2 rather than the opposite.

So Al Gore says one thing, and Martin Durkin (via his talking heads) says the reverse. Who can we trust to tell us which one's right?

Chutney Posted on 11/4 14:07
re: Great Global Warming Swindle

Nestle's Nutritionist. She's the only hope.

Buddy Posted on 11/4 14:14
re: Great Global Warming Swindle

That's what I mean. It's too easy to say "oh but x is being paid by ExxonMobil and therefore talks nonsense*". May well be the case 98% of the time, but how does Mr J Public know that it's not the funded guy who is right and the Greenpeace guy who's barking up the wrong sustainable forest?

*I wanted a stronger word but can't be bothered to work out what the poxy filter accepts these days.

green_beret20 Posted on 11/4 14:16
re: Great Global Warming Swindle

As with most things they have to hype it up into end of the world scenarios in order for it to get noticed.

The earth is about 4.5 billion years old, yet we think we can predict its doom from about 100 years worth of reliable weather data.

Plus this argument of lets spend millions on it anyway just in case is frankly idiotic. I can think of a lot better and current causes the money can go to.

--- Post edited by green_beret20 on 11/4 14:17 ---

crab_people Posted on 11/4 14:29
re: Great Global Warming Swindle

well they've cancelled those Live Earth gigs so there must be something in it


deganya Posted on 11/4 15:16
re: Great Global Warming Swindle

Thousands of the worlds top scientests say we are heading for climate change due to CO2 emissions. Only a handful say otherwise. Surely the evidence speaks for itself.
One of those scientests on the global warming scam documentary has already been discredited about ten years ago, about some theory he pooh pooed but was forced to accept he was wrong so its feasible he got it wrong again.
The comment about the earth being billions of years old and now we are relying on 100 years of weather data is a bit of a red herring. Man wasnt around billions of years but soon has he did arrive he started to ruin the planet, so are you lot saying we are treating the planet well, and there is nothing to worry about? Its your kids that will inherit the crap your throwing out now.

grantus Posted on 11/4 15:19
re: Great Global Warming Swindle

Plant new forests, stop polluting the sea, find power sources that are more environmentally friendly, improve public transport, make rail travel safe, reliable and cheap.

Why not?

Why tax us?

Industry, cooperations should be paying, not the man in the street.

We are being stitched up.

Governments don't give a toss, if you think they do, you are a fool. (No offence intended)

Sticking a bottle in the green bin, pathetic!

--- Post edited by grantus on 11/4 15:21 ---

Buddy Posted on 11/4 15:19
re: Great Global Warming Swindle

I don't have any kids.

Lefty3668 Posted on 11/4 15:36
re: Great Global Warming Swindle

'Industry, cooperations should be paying, not the man in the street.'

Welcome to the left, brother. It only took until it looked like hitting you personally in the pocket.

grantus Posted on 11/4 15:53
re: Great Global Warming Swindle

Not true Lefty. It's on principle. I have a foot in the right and a foot in the left.

Kilburn Posted on 11/4 16:06
re: Great Global Warming Swindle

I'm bored of this now.

The science is f---ing cast-iron. It is only considered 'controversial' because of the political questions it raises.

The programme in question was produced by a man who has previously been caught out as a liar, and since its airing at least one scientist (the oceanography guy) has come out and said he was cynically misrepresented and in fact strongly supports the mainstream scientific position.

Rich_Boro Posted on 11/4 16:12
re: Great Global Warming Swindle

Its not like mankind invaded the Earth- intelligent beings evolved naturally (not getting religious) therefore, our actions are natural.

We have a problem and we develop technology to overcome it.

If climate change does happen anyway and we've stopped developing then we have problems.

Lefty3668 Posted on 11/4 16:14
re: Great Global Warming Swindle

Tell that to the people of New Orleans, Rich.

Rich_Boro Posted on 11/4 16:14
re: Great Global Warming Swindle

Personally have little time for it- tell them first (points accusingly at China)...China raises middle finger ;)

kelvin_fahrenheit Posted on 11/4 16:15
re: Great Global Warming Swindle

Apparently most of the "science" quoted on that programme has already been disproved and figures were misused.

Link: here.

Rich_Boro Posted on 11/4 16:17
re: Great Global Warming Swindle

New Orleans-No way of proving that was down to Global warming.
Awful event but could have happened anyway.

Buddy Posted on 11/4 16:17
re: Great Global Warming Swindle

Kilburn - read this as a genuine question not a challenge - can you point me to an undisputed source showing a direct correlation between atmospheris carbon dioxide and global temperature?

From what I've (quite briefly) read, I haven't seen anyone arguing with the assertion that Al Gore's graph is the wrong way round. I'd love to see such an argument, it would be horrible to think that the vast majority of the world's scientists are barking up the wrong tree.

deganya Posted on 11/4 16:18
re: Great Global Warming Swindle

I wasnt disagreeing with you, I was challenging the view that global warming re CO2 emmissions doesnt exist. I also agree with you that the man in the street shouldnt be taxed and that corporations should bear the burdon. Sticking a bottle in a bin, does contribute to saving the planet if everyone does it, however small that contribution is.

guyb Posted on 11/4 16:23
re: Great Global Warming Swindle

I work with a couple of environmental scientists at the Open University who went beserk when they saw this show.

The reasons why are covered here but also they feel that just when they had made the argument and the public were coming on side and considering solutions, rubbish like this turns up to give the naysayers a mast to nail their colours too, no matter how dodgy.

Rich_Boro Posted on 11/4 16:24
re: Great Global Warming Swindle

not intended to pick arguments, but putting a bottle in the bin, although I get the principle won't change anything.
The major polluters are surely so set in their ways, that climate changes are inevitable no matter wht WE do.

Think recycling etc etc is right, but a lot of the emissions stuff is going over the top- almost gives the message that it can be solved through our efforts, when the bigger picture is being swept under the carpet. (if you get what i mean)

Buddy Posted on 11/4 16:25
re: Great Global Warming Swindle

This chap who "was cynically misrepresented and in fact strongly supports the mainstream scientific position".

This is an article by him written a year before the programme was broadcast, published by the Royal Society. His conclusion seems to be that we can't prove whether or not the current warming is human-induced.

Link: Carl Wunsch

The_DiasBoro Posted on 11/4 16:27
re: Great Global Warming Swindle

'They' tell us that climate change will lead to a worldwide ecomonic recession, no doubt to justify all the taxes etc. But surely the only thing that will stop new blast furnaces and power stations starting up and and the whole of China buying a 4x4 and growth in aviation etc (the latter is encouraged by our government btw) is just that, a recession.
It'll take care of itself. That's if there is anything you can do about it anyway.

Lefty3668 Posted on 11/4 16:28
re: Great Global Warming Swindle

Rich, I was referring to

'We have a problem and we develop technology to overcome it'

How well does our technology cope with forces of nature? Only up to a point and it seems hurricanes are getting more frequent and more severe.

Rich_Boro Posted on 11/4 16:33
re: Great Global Warming Swindle

Ok point taken.
Perhaps in the case of investing in sea defences and looking to shift developments to less 'effected' zones might be a sensible long term goal- technology to predict acts of nature rather to prevent)

green_beret20 Posted on 11/4 16:37
re: Great Global Warming Swindle

Since when is New Orleans is proof?


We build in flood plains, they flood and we blame global warming.

kelvin_fahrenheit Posted on 11/4 16:38
re: Great Global Warming Swindle

buddy, maybe Carl Wunsch was leaned on to produce that paper. A lot of scientists claim that they are being censored or pressurised into playing down their findings and editing their work.

Link: censorship.

Kilburn Posted on 11/4 16:43
re: Great Global Warming Swindle

Buddy - taken as such - no.

In fact, I can't point you to an undisputed source that proves anything at all, ever.

Why? Because whenever science proposes something there are always some who dispute it, regardless of evidence, logic or reason. Evolution, link between cancer and smoking, you name it.

What I can point you at is the overwhelming worldwide scientific concensus on this issue, which is such that it would be utterly unprecedented if it were to be proved wrong at this stage.

I could point you to just about any major scientific academy in the world to back this up, but as we are British, let's go with our own, the Royal Society.

Link: Royal Society

Buddy Posted on 11/4 16:44
re: Great Global Warming Swindle

By the Royal Society?

That was to kelvin, btw. Interesting juxtaposition though.

--- Post edited by Buddy on 11/4 16:45 ---

number9point5 Posted on 11/4 16:48
re: Great Global Warming Swindle

Global warming equals one thing.


Greeenpeace alone need to raise $30mill a year just to stay afloat. Factor in FofE et all and you have a great global scam. And answer me this why oh why are all these Global Conf held in nice exotic places?

Hold them via Video link or in Hull and see how many want to attend then. ikt's a fooking money raising pot of gold of all those dissenfranchised lefties.

Now i'm bored with this topic. Because i'm right and your all pisspot idiots for not believing me, you watch i'll be proven right and you'l all look like tosspots for not believeing me.

Sound familiar?

--- Post edited by number9point5 on 11/4 16:50 ---

--- Post edited by number9point5 on 11/4 16:50 ---

Kilburn Posted on 11/4 17:04
re: Great Global Warming Swindle

I really hope you are right, and all the scientists are wrong 9.5.

A few smug right-wingers doing their comedy victory jigs would be a price worth paying for not having my plans for a comfortable retirement in Italy messed up by it turning into a desert.

kelvin_fahrenheit Posted on 11/4 17:15
re: Great Global Warming Swindle

I wouldn't suggest that Wunsch was leaned on by the RC but perhaps it was sent back for editing before it was published. Anyway, in his closing paragraph Carl comes down cautiously on the side of global warming caused by human activity.

" is essential to remember that the inability to prove human-induced change is not the same thing as a demonstration of its absence. It is probably true that most scientists would assign a very high probability that human-induced change is already strongly present in the climate system, while at the same time agreeing that clear-cut proof is not now available and may not be available for a long-time to come, if ever. Public policy has to be made on the basis of probabilities, not firm proof."

Buddy Posted on 11/4 17:16
re: Great Global Warming Swindle

Absolutely. But that's a long way from saying it's "cast iron", and yet he's the one chap who is held up as misrepresented from the film.

indestructible Posted on 11/4 17:28
re: Great Global Warming Swindle

"it seems hurricanes are getting more frequent and more severe"

Do we KNOW that though? After all, our weather records are pretty insignificant in comparison with the age of the planet. Is it not possible that we're just going through a period where we have more hurricanes etc. by chance/nature?

Is not having long-haul holidays really going to preserve the human race for much longer? If nature is going to take its course eventually (and I'm sure the human race will end at some point) is it really worth getting stressed about?

Let's just enjoy life while we're still here!

grantus Posted on 11/4 17:29
re: Great Global Warming Swindle

Isn't this one of the most dormant periods in the planets history?

We're due some climactic change, with or without us.

With or without us waaahoooow.

All green talk, it's all just conjecture, people jumping on the bandwagon, it has no substance what so ever. People aren't changing, they buy organic food and recycle. SO F'CK!!!

If you were that bothered why aren't you marching aginst the car industry, why are you still flying in planes.

Why aren't you calling for sanctions against industries with high pollution levels, or even military action, of course you'd have to use stones because the production of guns, tanks, spears, swords and sticks is all bad for the environment.

Nothing lasts forever, people fall, nations fall, empires fall.

Mankind will endure this "catastrophy" that is upon us. I think it's more about keeping us in fear, about controlling us than it is about the health of Mother Nature.

Mother Nature who, mark my words, will outlive us all.

--- Post edited by grantus on 11/4 17:30 ---

Lefty3668 Posted on 11/4 17:44
re: Great Global Warming Swindle

Read Kilburn's link indestructible.

'Mankind will endure this "catastrophy" that is upon us'

I don't doubt it Grantus. The Londoners endured the Blitz, doesn't mean they enjoyed it at the time, particularly the ones burning to death in houses hit by incendiary bombs.

grantus Posted on 11/4 17:54
re: Great Global Warming Swindle

Lefty, I do hope that was sarcasm, not you missing my point.

Miklosh Posted on 11/4 18:00
re: Great Global Warming Swindle

just a small point, but didnt the majority of scientists used to think the world was flat at one time, and the few that challenged this view were seen as lunatics??? the majority isnt always right. Science is an evolving subject afterall.

Lefty3668 Posted on 11/4 18:39
re: Great Global Warming Swindle

Bit of both I think.

Kilburn Posted on 11/4 18:49
re: Great Global Warming Swindle

'Flat earth science' was based on an assumption that was backed by no evidence.

Modern climate science is based on the gathering and careful study of huge amounts empirical evidence.

A small, but crucial difference.

Lefty3668 Posted on 11/4 19:08
re: Great Global Warming Swindle

Plus the Greeks had proved the earth was round and had even pretty accurately calculated it's size by mathematics. Their learning was lost to medieval western european society, or suppressed by the Church, though fortunately preserved, revered and enhanced by the enlightened muslims, when the flat earth theory was predominant.