|bucknutt Posted on 7/5 9:51|
If God does excist was he God of the dinosaurs as well and if he was why did he wipe them out in such a inhumane way (slow and painful death choking ect) surley he would not cause harm to any living creatures ?.
Also why did he let some animals such as certain sea life creatures sharks ect still survive to this day ?.
If he was the god of the dinosaurs and he had sent his son to try and save them would Jesus have appeared in dinosaur form or as human form even though he was millions of years from creating life that would lead to human form ?.
Also is has been proved 100% fact that we came from apes as i do believe they have found recently a half human half ape skull , so why did he let evolution take its cause and not just invent humans to start with if he wanted to create a more intelligent life form after he wiped the dinosaurs out ?.
Looking at some of the above facts why do so many people believe in a myth and a fictional super being ie God ?.
--- Post edited by bucknutt on 7/5 9:51 ---
|Some_Strange_Gadgie Posted on 7/5 9:52|
He works in mysterious ways.
|bucknutt Posted on 7/5 9:52|
|borobadge Posted on 7/5 9:53|
got any more ?
|colinfearon Posted on 7/5 9:58|
Dynosaurs did not become extict they simply eveolved there are many species still around that decended from them, the bird being one of the most common.
We do not eveolve from apaes but instead shared a common ancestor.
PS there is no God.
|bucknutt Posted on 7/5 10:00|
What or WHO is apaes
My next question if he does excist why didn't he teach us all to spell properly.
--- Post edited by bucknutt on 7/5 10:02 ---
|colinfearon Posted on 7/5 10:02|
They are decended from Apes but due to DNA copying and my in ability to type and spell they became apeas.
|Little_legs_k9 Posted on 7/5 10:02|
your gonna burn in hell ! or possibly not, im hedging my bets
|bucknutt Posted on 7/5 10:04|
Im only asking not saying he does or not , still nobody has answered the above 4 questions.
|borobadge Posted on 7/5 10:06|
|re: a thread to someone who dosnt exist ?|
where did the dinosaurs and the apes come from ?
|bucknutt Posted on 7/5 10:06|
Colin the dinosaurs where wiped out yes , but as you say only the ones that survived evolved into different life forms that takes me back to question 2 why did he let some survive if he does excist.
|bucknutt Posted on 7/5 10:09|
Well if you believe Badge he created dinosaurs and then decided he wanted a change and killed them all that can be the only possibility unless somebody can explain differently ?.
|trodbitch Posted on 7/5 10:11|
"If God does excist was he God of the dinosaurs as well and if he was why did he wipe them out in such a inhumane way (slow and painful death choking ect) surley he would not cause harm to any living creatures ?."
This only works if you believe in an interventionist god, people die every day, bad things happen, very few religions say you should expect intervention.
"Also why did he let some animals such as certain sea life creatures sharks ect still survive to this day ?."
See answer 1.
"If he was the god of the dinosaurs and he had sent his son to try and save them would Jesus have appeared in dinosaur form or as human form even though he was millions of years from creating life that would lead to human form ?."
Fook knows. But he's not so it doesn't matter.
"Also is has been proved 100% fact that we came from apes as i do believe they have found recently a half human half ape skull , so why did he let evolution take its cause and not just invent humans to start with if he wanted to create a more intelligent life form after he wiped the dinosaurs out ?."
You could argue that creating the system of evolution knowing what would evolve eventually was a better party trick than creating the world in 6 days in it's finished form.
"Looking at some of the above facts why do so many people believe in a myth and a fictional super being ie God ?."
Fooks knows, I'm an atheist.
|johnsmithsno2 Posted on 7/5 10:14|
|re: a thread to someone who dosnt exist ?|
You're on your own with this one borobadge, good luck!
|bucknutt Posted on 7/5 10:14|
Fair answers Trod , but when you think about the things i have mentioned it does make it hard to believe if you look at it all with a open mind.
|littlejimmy Posted on 7/5 10:16|
If you look at it with an open mind you can't be an atheist.
|bucknutt Posted on 7/5 10:22|
Jimmy i never said i was
|littlejimmy Posted on 7/5 10:24|
I didn't say you were.
|bigdave85 Posted on 7/5 10:25|
Our God is the Moon.
Millions and Millions of years ago the Moon was unbelievably close and the Earth was hostile and gases from the sea, due to the Moons close proximity, gave the Earth an inhabitable atmosphere. As the Moon moved further away from the Earth the tides altered and the Earth became a less hostile environment.
Organisms were able to form and from these organisms fish evolved. Some of these fish grew legs and became amphibious. From these amphibious creatures Dinosaurs evolved. And the rest is history!
ALL PRAISE THE MOON!!
|bucknutt Posted on 7/5 10:26|
I you never m8 , i look upon things with a open mind
|littlejimmy Posted on 7/5 10:27|
See, that's the bit that bothers me. I'm an agnostic, and have a lot of issues with blind faith in God, and science for that matter. Did fish literally just crawl out of the sea and start breathing one day? How did that work?
|trodbitch Posted on 7/5 10:29|
Perhaps they evolved the ability to do both? Breathe in and out of water?
--- Post edited by trodbitch on 7/5 10:31 ---
|bigdave85 Posted on 7/5 10:29|
Certain fish developed legs for crawling along the sea bed. It's all evolution.
Not sure about the what happened with the breathing part. Obviously somewhere along the line their gils evolved somewhat to enable them to breathe above water.
--- Post edited by bigdave85 on 7/5 10:32 ---
|borobadge Posted on 7/5 10:30|
with one sixths of the globes population being Catholic....
and with 'jesus' by my side..i'm never alone !..
|littlejimmy Posted on 7/5 10:35|
Yes, but how and why? Was it some kind of genetic mutation that allowed the fish to breathe out of water? What made it think, Ooh, I'll have a wander out of the sea for a bit? None of this was explained in O-level Biology. Or I was sleeping at the time.
|BobUpndown Posted on 7/5 10:37|
Religion is man made.. and ALL their books are written by men..
God may or may not exist..
Science will propose theories and sometimes establish facts..
Religion will propose unequivocal obedience to doctrine..
|Link: creationist museum|
|bigdave85 Posted on 7/5 10:41|
Survival of the fittest jimmy. There was probably some major change in the environment that meant these fish had to evolve their breathing apparatus in order to survive.
Maybe they inhabited tidal areas and they had little choice of being out of water
|trodbitch Posted on 7/5 10:41|
The way I see it, people often say (myself included!) that creatures evolved "to do" this or "because of" that but when I really think about it, this is wrong. Evolution is not a conscious thing. A giraffe didn't evolve to have a long neck so it could reach high into the trees. Some giraffes had slightly longer/shorter necks than others in the same way I am taller than some people but shorter than others.
It would only really take a severe famine or drought and the scarcity of food would mean a lot of giraffes with genetically disposed short necks would have a higher chance of dying.
So I never really see it as creatures adapting to suit their environment, I see it more as a genetic mutation that worked out quite well in spite of it. For example, the first species to leave the sea might not have been particularly mobile but it didn't have any predators - good evolutionary move! And who's to say it was a fish anyway? Could have been a crab-type creature, or some type of snake.
--- Post edited by trodbitch on 7/5 10:42 ---
--- Post edited by trodbitch on 7/5 10:43 ---
|Senor_Chester Posted on 7/5 10:52|
Your doubting evolution happens in living creatures trod? I think there plenty of evidence to prove it does.
|trodbitch Posted on 7/5 10:58|
I don't see how you came to that conclusion from what I have posted? Are you saying creatures are born and then change in their lifetime?
|bucknutt Posted on 7/5 11:00|
Its a shame that so many people believe in gods and not just one but many different gods , but i suppose if it gives them comfort then good luck to them.
But when you look an the many facts to do with evoultion and science , against as you say bob books written by men and myths it is hard to believe that a god does excist.
|Senor_Chester Posted on 7/5 11:00|
Yes, are you not. If you look how humans have evolved then it does happen.
|trodbitch Posted on 7/5 11:02|
Can you give me any examples of how creatures have evolved genetically after birth?
|sasboro Posted on 7/5 11:03|
religion is for people who hear voices in their heads and see things in their imagination. Bit of an mental illness and for people who have low self asteam. I also think children shouldnt be allowed to go to church until they are old enough to decide if they want to do it as there is a risk they can get brain washed
|Senor_Chester Posted on 7/5 11:04|
"Can you give me any examples of how creatures have evolved genetically after birth?"
What like one person in their lifetime! No of course not!
|bigdave85 Posted on 7/5 11:05|
But thats what you said Senor_Chester
|trodbitch Posted on 7/5 11:06|
"I think there plenty of evidence to prove it does."
|trodbitch Posted on 7/5 11:09|
sas, I don't think that is particularly fair. I was in church yesterday (!) and the priest said he wanted everyone to remember one thing "God loves us very much". The hippy in me says that the idea of people caring and loving each other shouldn't be sniffed at. Well, in the sense that someone who dedicates their life to following that belief shouldn't be condemned for it.
|Senor_Chester Posted on 7/5 11:09|
Not at all, I'm saying that theres evidence that we have evolved from the neanderthal types over the thousnads of years. It obviously doesn't happen in one lifetime.
|bucknutt Posted on 7/5 11:12|
For instance it is a 100% fact that a comet hit earth wiping out the dinosaurs and just about everything else , so if God had excisted he could have stopped it but choose not to.
If the comet had missed the planet human beings would not be here today because dinosaurs would of went on living and evolved into what ever would be here today.
So if he did excist he must of choose to let the dinosaurs be killed off and then basically did nothing just sat back and let evolution take its cause which again evolution can be proved 100%. And would of happened over millions of years with or without gods help so in theory how can he excist and if he did what has he done to contribute to the creation of human beings.
If somebody who believes in god can explain the above to me i may start and consider him excisting myself.
|Senor_Chester Posted on 7/5 11:14|
Bucknutt there is actually evidence to say the comet didn't wipe out the dinosaurs. Not saying I believe it though.
|BobUpndown Posted on 7/5 11:16|
it just makes me smirk a little that you have Creationists.. starting to argue a bigger picture behind the whole creation/evolution thing..
after 2000 years they have realised the earth is not flat, dinosours existed, the earth is not the centre of the universe.. so they are now using psudo-scientific logic (not testable scientific methods) just fuzzi-logic to shore up their historic texts..
reading his The God Conspiracy at the moment and it's an interesting read..
|trodbitch Posted on 7/5 11:19|
"I'm saying that theres evidence that we have evolved from the neanderthal types over the thousnads of years"
I know, I agree that it has. I didn't say otherwise, I'm 100% a believer in evolution, I just didn't understand why disagreed with me as I think we are saying the same thing.
|Senor_Chester Posted on 7/5 11:21|
"So I never really see it as creatures adapting to suit their environment, I see it more as a genetic mutation that worked out quite well in spite of it."
I'm getting confused now anyway!
|bigdave85 Posted on 7/5 11:24|
If such a massive comet hit the earth where is the big hole it would have left behind?
|trodbitch Posted on 7/5 11:29|
That's evolution. Animals don't decide to have a longer neck or to be able to run faster. We didn't decide to have bigger brains as that would suit us better the next time around. The genetic mutations are random and occur slowly over many generations, but my point is the mutations that make a creature more likely to survive also mean those creatures without them are more likely to die therefore that genetic trait is spread more widely and becomes more prevalent.
Look at it another way. There are two people, one has a set of genes that make him better at resisting the negative effects of radiation. The other has genes that make him worse. In the event of a nuclear holocaust, the people with the first load of genes would be more likely to survive and in the end almost everyone would have that as part of their genetic make-up. In effect, we would have evolved. That person did not 'know' there was going to be a nuclear war and didn't adapt purposefully to survive it, they just became genetically better at living in the new environment when it came.
--- Post edited by trodbitch on 7/5 11:31 ---
|bigdave85 Posted on 7/5 11:34|
You can see recent evolution quite clearly.
Eventually humans will all be bald and a light shade of brown. Inevitably humans males will probably average around 7ft tall aswell.
|mud_pie Posted on 7/5 11:47|
bucknutt...just have faith he does exist!
|Senor_Chester Posted on 7/5 11:50|
"If such a massive comet hit earth where is the big hole it would have left behind?"
Isn't it supposed to be in the Gulf Of Mexico? Besides I suppose over 65 million years it may have disappeared.
|Boro85 Posted on 7/5 11:51|
The jumbo tins of poly filler have to be useful for something.
|Tom_Fun Posted on 7/5 12:02|
Atheists are equally as arrogant as believers, how can anyone possibly know?
|trodbitch Posted on 7/5 12:05|
Being an atheist means I don't believe in god, it doesn't mean I mock those people who do nor does it mean I know anything for a 'fact' either.
|BobUpndown Posted on 7/5 12:11|
the problem isn't with the belief, or not, of God..
it's the religious zelots that have claimed God as the foundation of their religion..
While we were still swinging in the branches God would have existed.. if you believe in God, religion didn't the two are, or should be, quite seperate..
|Scrote Posted on 7/5 12:26|
bobupndown - "it just makes me smirk a little that you have Creationists.. starting to argue a bigger picture behind the whole creation/evolution thing.."
the problem with the above is that creationists are a relatively recent phenomenon - they set out their particular interpretation of the bible in response to the growing trend of scientific discovery in the area of genetics
just because they are very vocal and have a large amount of money doesn't make them any more a representative of christianity than a 7/7 suicide bomber is of british muslims
they now find themselves furiously back-pedalling on a lot of issues that wouldn't have arisen had they not been so blinkered in the first place
richard dawkins is just as bad from the other side and i'd take anything he writes with as large a pinch of salt as anything written by a creationist
|bucknutt Posted on 7/5 12:35|
The hole left by the comet is in the gulf of mexico and it has been proven that by the size if it , it would have wiped out just about everything that was living on earth at the time.
I am still waiting for somebody who does believe in god to answer my questions posted in the first post and the post at 11.12am.
|sasboro Posted on 7/5 12:37|
bucknutt, you need to be more specific in which god you refer to.
|bucknutt Posted on 7/5 12:40|
|BobUpndown Posted on 7/5 12:42|
I agree Scrote, not saying Creationists represent christianity.. but as you say a group within that flavour of faith.. I did laugh at the Dino's walking with humans tho.. 3500 years ago when the world was created..
As for Dawkins.. he's a quiet voice when compared to the organised religions of the world.. I'll read what he writes and form my own opinions..
would be a better place if religions of the world alowed people to follow their beliefs rather than have some leader tell them what to think and do..
|Winston_S Posted on 7/5 12:51|
You either believe, like I do, in a God in some shape or form or you don't. It all boils down to faith. I suppose you could argue that the wiping out of the dinosaurs was part of God's plan to allow small furry mammals to thrive with the result that mankind would eventually evolve. I though believe that God simply put the wheels of the universe in motion and we are just a pleasant result of a series of events but nevertheless a result of God's work.
Not the good Catholic that my parents expected me to be but I have faith all the same.
--- Post edited by Winston_S on 7/5 12:52 ---
|Scrote Posted on 7/5 12:55|
"would be a better place if religions of the world alowed people to follow their beliefs rather than have some leader tell them what to think and do.."
that wouldn't work though due to the fact that most people can convinve themselves that there is some justification for whatever it is they are doing (and conversely find something wrong with what everyone else does) - just look at the threads on underage drinkers and coke snorters for proof of that...
what religion does need is a bit more honesty - the bible (and koran etc.) are being used to justify all manner of plainly irrelligious nonsense by people who not only should know better but who actually do - but see their teachings as a means of control over the masses
|sasboro Posted on 7/5 12:58|
if god exists then how can a vicar this week get sent to prison for child sex offences.Wouldnt god stop him or the vicar sh it scared to do something bad like that.
|Beelzeebub Posted on 7/5 13:06|
If there was a god would you expect him to intervene only at major disasters or on a daily basis for any life threatening situation? Or perhaps in the event of a scuffed knee or bruised elbow?
I think it's important that you set guidelines for any proposed deity you are prepared to believe in
|trodbitch Posted on 7/5 13:13|
How would he do that sas? Would the vicar just explode a few years before he even thought of doing something like that? Bolt of lightening perhaps?
The idea of god being a puppet master is more freaky than the idea there is a god at all.
|sasboro Posted on 7/5 13:17|
if got created man then i am sure he has the power to create anything. for example a natural disaster a small tornado which uproots a tree which then falls on someone bad.
|Winston_S Posted on 7/5 13:19|
For someone who chose to use the name of Beelzeebub you put the argument rather well. In fact I couldn't have put it better myself. Well said.
Satan is supposed to be the puppet master. Not God.
|Scrote Posted on 7/5 13:19|
the problem with that sas is that it removes the capacity of free will which is what makes us human (from a Christian point of view)
|colinfearon Posted on 7/5 13:25|
Its funny if you are born in an Arab land you are liley to be Muslim, many will be convinced that their religion is the true religion and others are wrong same goes for Christians and others all convinced that they are right, BUT the only reason they have that religion is that they were born where they were, and then people really think that they have an informed view, they don't really its just an accident of birth. I was born into a ctholic family, and called a cgristain/catholic chils, at the age of three month it would be unlikeley that I had religious thoughts but I was baptised a catholic. More accuratley I was the child of catholics than a catholic child (I know this is Dawkins).
At least now I am an athiest after raeding about religion and science, it is my view bnot one that I have inherited along with a big nose.
|ThePrisoner Posted on 7/5 13:32|
|Link: for ID-iots|
|TheSmogMonster Posted on 7/5 14:05|
Class video that.
Incidentally there are shallow feeder fish that hop from around shallow pools, land animals probably involved from something like that.
ie the fish that could hop the furthest survived as they had a better choice of feeding grounds, and any mutation that helped them do this became the norm, so the variation evolve further from fish towards being able to breathe air and fins that evolve into legs.
|Stepper_T Posted on 7/5 14:15|
|re: a thread to someone who dosnt exist ?|
God is a gas.
|number9point5 Posted on 7/5 15:02|
|re: a thread to someone who dosnt exist ?|
But just because you repeat it over and over does not make it true.
For example. Eskimoes are unsuited to life in the artic yet they survive? Kalhari bushmen are unsuited to life in 45 degree desets yet they survive?
Blows that one out of the water then.
And the video title was the clincher for me Evolurion for Idiots. Yep it certainly is.
--- Post edited by number9point5 on 7/5 15:03 ---
|paulo86 Posted on 7/5 15:06|
If that video is for idiots, wow i must be a tadpole as i havent got a fooking clue what that was about!!
|ThePrisoner Posted on 7/5 15:22|
ID-iots is a play on 'Intelligent Design' which is another term for creationism.
"For example. Eskimoes are unsuited to life in the artic yet they survive? Kalhari bushmen are unsuited to life in 45 degree desets yet they survive?
Blows that one out of the water then."
Human brains have evolved sufficiently for them to be able to adapt and control their local environment suffuciently to survive in otherwise untenable environments. If the brain had not evolved then humans would not be able to build igloos, fashion fish hooks and wear other animals' pelts and they would indeed not survive in the Arctic. This is why you don't see elephants at the North Pole.
|trodbitch Posted on 7/5 15:42|
Well said Prisoner. We have moved (almost) to the point where there are very few natural changes in our environment that would challenge our survival as a species. It is *precisely* our evolution that has enabled us to live beyond what is historically our natural habitat in Africa.
|colinfearon Posted on 7/5 15:47|
Don't you think also that these envioremntal challenges (heading out of Africa) actually helped our developmnet and to differentiate ourselves from other creatures, Its cold learn how to heat and preserve food, if you do then your DNA will be passed on giving your decendants more chance to survive, face new challenges and if succesful pass on your DNA.
|trodbitch Posted on 7/5 15:57|
I think so, Colin. Although it's difficult to say if that ingenuity to adapt/improvise came first or not. But it certainly has been rewarded (ie, by our survival and progress since)
--- Post edited by trodbitch on 7/5 15:58 ---
|TheSmogMonster Posted on 7/5 16:01|
number9point5 would a human survive for one week without any equipment in the arctic?
As the ThePrisoner pointed out, its our brains that make the difference.
|bucknutt Posted on 7/5 17:49|
Still waiting for a believer to answer my questions in the 2 posts mentioned above
|trodbitch Posted on 7/5 17:57|
You say that as if they owe you an answer.
|piggy_nichol Posted on 7/5 18:04|
Ok, as someone who hears voices I'll stick up for God.
You are all assumming that he knew what he wanted when he started creating Earth. Very few people or Gods are like that. You paint a room beige, then buy a brown settee, then decide the walls would look better pale green. Then you think 'oh fook it' and move house to somewhere you like better.
It was the same with dinosaurs, they seemed great when he made them, but like the scalextric filling up the front room, you soon get bored with them.
So you get rid and bring some monkeys in. After a while you think you didnt quite do as good a job with them as you would have liked, so you smarten them up a bit and make some humans.
You have to cut him a bit of slack.
|piggy_nichol Posted on 7/5 18:23|
Well, I'm glad that we have cleared that up.
|number9point5 Posted on 7/5 18:59|
Prisoner you talk a crock of shoite. Typical "Evolutionist" that dismisses all others because your so far up your own rear end the only opinion you can hear is your own. And like most anuses it's full of shoite.
I find it offencsive (but typical of an Evolutionist) that you feel you had to point out that ID-iots is a play on words. Not everyone who believes in God is less intelligent than yourself.
And like many people you confuse Adaptation to environment to be proof of evolution. And as a side point you don't get Elephants in the artic/ant because they cannot swim that far.
Now that's my opinion.
--- Post edited by number9point5 on 7/5 19:04 ---
--- Post edited by number9point5 on 7/5 19:05 ---
|TheSmogMonster Posted on 7/5 19:07|
"And like many people you confuse Adaptation to environment to be proff of evolution. And as a side point you don't get Elephants in the artic/ant because they cannot swim that far."
Is that 'really' an argument?
|Scrote Posted on 7/5 19:42|
i'd imagine if elephants had managed to get to the arctic the ones with the best insulation would have survived and passed their genes onto the next generation and after about 800 generations we'd have a fat hairy elephant we could have called a woolly mammoth
but that would be daft...
as far as God goes (not that i want to claim to speak for him) surely setting things in motion to eventually end up with a species that was able to evolve and work out that there was a God was a pretty clever trick
adaptation to environment and survival of the most fit to survive is not proof that there isn't a God - it is basic common sense
any ID proponents trying to claim otherwise are, as i've already mentioned, about as far away from my Christianity as a UK suicide bomber is from the rest of UK muslims
why do the outspoken athiest brigade (i.e. people like richard dawkins) only ever tackle the nut-jobs when it comes to proving that they are deluded and therefore that God doesn't exist - it is like me taking on a team of 3 year olds at football and then cracking one off when i beat them single handedly (or footedly if you prefer)
--- Post edited by Scrote on 7/5 19:43 ---
|LLPJ Posted on 7/5 19:56|
Theres a lot of confusion between evolution and adaptation. Evolution is the idea of one species being formed by another. Ie. we've all come from one species. Which is a "theory" and not a very good one if u ask me.
Adaptation however is the idea that a species will modify over time, like humans getting taller or shorter or losing the appendix or whatever.
and i agree with scrote about Dawkins, he spends so much time trying to show Christians as small minded and prejudiced, maybe he should look in the mirror!
--- Post edited by LLPJ on 7/5 19:57 ---
|ThePrisoner Posted on 7/5 20:04|
"I find it offencsive (but typical of an Evolutionist) that you feel you had to point out that ID-iots is a play on words. Not everyone who believes in God is less intelligent than yourself."
It's not my video or title or pun. I know many theists and atheists are a lot more intelligent than me but I'm bright enough to acknowledge the evidence regarding evolution. For me that is a lot, lot stronger explanation for the development of life than a big supernatural beardy guy waving a wand, which is what the creation boils down to. That is crackers.
|Andriss Posted on 7/5 20:18|
Why the anti Dawkins comments? I found The God Delusion both persuasive and entertaining (I haven't read all of his).
Putting aside the creationist/evolutionist arguments Epicurus is also still pretty convincing 2300 years on:
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither willing nor able? Then why call him God?"
|ThePerfectOmlette Posted on 7/5 20:59|
so God made the Earth and planted seeds of life on it, then watched life grow and eveolve as he was molding and shaping the conditons/environment by sending/not preventing meteors or freak storms etc..????
if prople can belive this, then why not belive in some allien of higer intelegence doing the same, found a plannet and planted seeds of life on it, watch as nature takes course,
i could imaginge us doing this as we develop our tecnology and ourselves as a species.
WILL WE EVENTUALY EVOLVE INTO GOD?????
|BoroMod Posted on 7/5 21:14|
There is no God and religion is a disease that blights our world. Wars and conflicts are caused by 2 things; the greed of man and religion.
During hard and testing times i have the support of my family and friends, that is good enough for me.
|number9point5 Posted on 7/5 21:22|
Ok lets look at the facts rather than the fiction.
An important basis for life is the development of complex proteins. So what is the chance of a complex protein forming in the old primeval soup because without them you have NO LIFE at all?
Well mathematicians (a form of science I believe?) tell us that any event that has a probability factor of one chance in 10 to the power of 50 will never happen. Yet Evolutions acknowledge that for complex proteins to have formed by chance in the primeval soup would be one in 10 to the power of 113. Now odd as this may seem 10 to the power of 113 is larger than the estimated number of atoms in the universe.
But that’s the simple bit because….
Some proteins serve as structural materials and others as enzymes. The latter speed up needed chemical reactions in the cell. Without such help, the cell would die. Not just a few, but 2,000 proteins serving as enzymes are needed for the cell’s activity. What are the chances of obtaining all of these at random? One chance in 10 to the power of 40,000!
Or as Fred Hoyle puts it “An outrageously small probability,” Hoyle asserts, “that could not be faced even if the whole universe consisted of organic soup.” He goes on to add:
“If one is not prejudiced either by social beliefs or by a scientific training into the conviction that life originated spontaneously on the Earth, this simple calculation wipes the idea entirely out of court.”
However, the chances actually are far fewer than this outrageously small figure indicates. There must be a membrane enclosing the cell. But this membrane is extremely complex, made up of protein, sugar and fat molecules. To quote evolutionist Leslie Orgel
“Modern cell membranes include channels and pumps which specifically control the influx and efflux of nutrients, waste products, metal ions and so on. These specialized channels involve highly specific proteins, molecules that could not have been present at the very beginning of the evolution of life.”
And all of this is before we get to DNA.
I could go on but I won’t. For me the reasons above are why Evolution is fiction. Either that or mathematics is incorrect.
--- Post edited by number9point5 on 7/5 21:25 ---
|BoroMod Posted on 7/5 21:25|
Copy and paste
|number9point5 Posted on 7/5 21:26|
Yeh right out of my dissertation that was written 15yrs ago. Muppet
|BoroMod Posted on 7/5 21:37|
Why, my assertion was right, wasn't it? I never said where it was copied from.
|Scrote Posted on 7/5 21:44|
out of interest #9.5 do you have up to date figures to go with the above?
i'd guess theres been some refinement over 15 years
on a similar subject there is a book called "Probability 1" that asks the question - are we alone in the universe - and concludes that as we ourselves exist then other intelligent lifeforms must do - theres a philosophical argument to prove this is backwards thinking but i forget what its called but it is indicative of where the dawkins-a-likes come from - they assume there is no God and then base their later work on this assumption
if a secondary school kid did it in an assigment they'd not pass yet it seems to be acceptable when disproving God
the late, great Isaac Asimov once conjectured that the reason the earth is the only planet that hosts life is due to our extremely large moon in comparison with the size of earth - the probability of finding a similar sized planet with a similar sized moon at the correct distance from a star are pretty damn slight
and even if we talk about non-carbon based life (which another anti-God book whose name i forget argues is the only life-form expected to be possible (at least by our definition of life)) a planet would still need to be stable long enough for intelligence to evolve
|ThePrisoner Posted on 7/5 22:17|
Did you publish your thesis
|Link: on Yahoo?|
|Andriss Posted on 7/5 22:26|
If you are going to use mathematics to suggest the improbability of evolution what is the statistical probability of a divine being who created the universe? Do we assume that there is no other answer?
If so we should logically side with the most probable. So which is it?
|trodbitch Posted on 7/5 22:27|
numberninepoint5, that's pathetic. How dare you have the cheek to dismiss the opinions of others who have posted well thought out comments in this discussion.
As for life being unlikely, YES it is! No-one had ever said life is not a miracle and an amazing achievement. We've had possibly up to 20 billion years for this to happen.
But I do worry when people say that something being very unlikely is proof that a god created it himself. Why is the probability of THAT never worked out?
|trodbitch Posted on 7/5 22:29|
Andriss, Occam's razor would suggest the simpler explanation is the more likely. And evolution, even when looked at over those incredible time-scales is still the simplest.
|Andriss Posted on 7/5 22:32|
PS Haven't they just found in the last couple of weeks a planet in another galaxy with a similar sized moon and the likelihood of there being surface water?
|moxzin87 Posted on 7/5 22:33|
Yeah but God doesn't use the Occam Razor, look at his beard!
|trodbitch Posted on 7/5 22:41|
I'm quite taken by the idea of science searching for answers and finding ever more elegant theories to explain the universe and perhaps one day we'll find something that so obviously points at an intelligent design. Am I alone in thinking that a god who could set up all of this - the big bang - with a click of his 'fingers' and it have this amazing outcome would be a pretty impressive god? That works far better for me than a god who says, "put that tree here, this mountain there and bury these dinosaur bones under here. What will I do with these first proto-types of the human bones? Oh, I've got that cave in France that could do with a little mystery injected into it!"
--- Post edited by trodbitch on 7/5 22:41 ---
|Scrote Posted on 7/5 22:47|
andriss - as far as i'm aware there has been no mention of any moons round the new "super-earth"
at some point anyone arguing for God needs to bring faith into it and that is where it gets difficult - i believe because i can't comprehend there not being a God - perhaps that is as much to do with my upbringing as anything else but it is something i've given a lot of thought to
the other point i think that needs making - especially with dawkins on the agenda - is that God and religion are two seperate things and the God of a particular religion is rarely the one that gets rammed down non-believer's throats which is a great pity but another facet of human nature...
trod - i agree completely with your last point which is why i find dawkins so intolerable for taking on what is an easy target in the creationists - if he had any mettle he'd get himself over to saudi and give some lectures on why allah doesn't exist!
--- Post edited by Scrote on 7/5 22:50 ---
|jennieb Posted on 7/5 22:49|
Think about it, if God hadn't gotten rid of the Dinosaurs, they would still be here and the human race would have probably been wiped out, leading to the very tragic fact that there would be no football and especially no boro!!
--- Post edited by jennieb on 7/5 22:49 ---
|trodbitch Posted on 7/5 22:50|
jennieb, it begs the question, why did he put them there in the first place?
|Scrote Posted on 7/5 22:51|
i think that the boro is a surefire indication that God has a sense of humour
|jennieb Posted on 7/5 22:53|
no idea, bit of a giggle maybe? as was said before, he works in mysterious ways!
|Bernard_Samson Posted on 7/5 22:55|
I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ. - Mohandas Gandhi (smart man, shot in the back very sad)
|trodbitch Posted on 7/5 22:56|
Having seen a fair bit of the boro, I agree he does!
|Beelzeebub Posted on 7/5 22:57|
Nah Boro would still exist - but our forward line would consist of a T-rex and an Allosaurus (strong, aggressive, good on the deck but a bit cumbersome around the box)
Sometimes nothing changes.
|Andriss Posted on 7/5 23:12|
I would like to believe in some kind of divine being but I can't based on my limited knowledge and an indisposition to blind faith. I have no argument with those that possess a faith (of whatever variety) but the use of the Bible as evidence of anything but mankind's need to find a reason for being borders on the delusional. We know that the New Testament was written after the event if there was one. We know that many gnostic gospels were discarded. We know that there were errors of translation (Alma - virgin for example) and discrepancies between the included gospels. Discarding some or all organized religion does not preclude the existence of a god / creator but it does make you less inclined to believe in the type presented.
Why do we still celebrate Christmas as anything other than a pagan event when the timetable of religious feasts detailed in the NT mean that Christ could not have been born in December?
|Andriss Posted on 7/5 23:35|
Scrote - yes you are correct - no moon. Water, gravity and a similar climate however.
Dawkins does point out in the very first chapter of his last book "that I am calling only supernatural gods delusional". He also quotes Einstein "To sense that behind anything that can be experienced there is something that our mind cannot grasp and whose beauty and sublimity reaches us only indirectly and as a feeble reflection, this is religiousness. In this sense I am religious."
|sasboro Posted on 7/5 23:40|
now where did god come from and who created god? if he created the universe then where did he come from to be able to create the universe?
|trodbitch Posted on 8/5 0:04|
Sas, that's an intriguing one. Who knows the answer but if you look at the current big bang model, it theorises that matter, light, space and the laws of physics that govern them did not exist until they spontaneously expanded from a singularity so small, that it actually had no dimensions.
So even with science we get to a dead end!
|Stepper_T Posted on 8/5 0:05|
Like I said, God is a gas.
|bucknutt Posted on 8/5 7:36|
Sh@t opened a can of worms he i think .
Andriss you speak a lot of sence , anyways i started this post with an open mind and after reading every post in it using my own common sence i have come to the conclusion he doesn't what i thought probably before posting so nothings changed.
As for people who believe i have no problem with it everybody has a right to believe in what they want.
|littlejimmy Posted on 8/5 8:33|
Always a nailed on ton, this subject.
Right, I'm off to start a Maggie Thatcher thread.
|bucknutt Posted on 8/5 9:27|
trodbitch i wasn't demanding an answer it was just i wondered what a strong believer would come up with to answer my questions in the first post and my post at 11.12.
And as it stands nobody who does believe has came up with a common sence and believable answer to the questions i asked.
And in my opinion the reason they can't is because if you look at the facts believer or not its difficult to do so.
|trodbitch Posted on 8/5 9:31|
Let me put it another way, peoples religion is all about faith, they don't need/want proof. They don't need to convince anyone else either.
|number9point5 Posted on 8/5 9:43|
Nope not on yahoo, don't have the time to trawl the net for stuff to put on this board. The information is readily available to anyone who cares to look for it. And all dissertations are built from inforation learned from other sorces then expaneded on. Mine was on the historical development of modern religons which included a section on evolution which is a religion imho.
But then i notice you choose to attack me not the information provide, now why is that?
What I find annoying about "evolutionists" is the the arrogant manner that they dissmiss all other opinions that might contradict them. They do this by belittling and shouting down like an unruly teenage child, take Dawkins and trodbitch's reply to my last post as an example, while they continue to act in this way i will always present an opposing argument.
I believe in God, that may be uncool in todays world, but I don't give a rats arse. The removal of God removes ultimate accountability from society imho. This has led to the slaughter of 2500 people every day in armed conflict since 1914. Yes religion has caused a lot of deaths, driven by men, but no where near as many as have been slaughter in the worship of mamon in the 20th centuary.
I'm done I will post no more on this board. Number9point5 has left the building.
--- Post edited by number9point5 on 8/5 9:59 ---
--- Post edited by number9point5 on 8/5 10:01 ---
|bucknutt Posted on 8/5 9:52|
Yes you are right i suppose Trod.
You see in the first question if God created life and that evolved into dinosaurs , then as somebody suggested when the comet was going to hit he never did anything and let nature takes it cause.
That means he never killed them it was a natural disaster.
But some creatures survived and life started again and evolved into humans (evolution has been proved as fact).
So my point was everything has happened and would of happened without anybodys help ie a god.
And if he decided to make the comet hit as somebody else suggested that means he killed his own creatures in a horrible way with pain and suffering which any god wouldn't do.
Anyways you could go on for ever .
I just can't believe because of the facts regarding evolution and science , i do feel sorry for Children who have religion imposed upon them before they are old enough to make up they own mind though.
--- Post edited by bucknutt on 8/5 9:52 ---
--- Post edited by bucknutt on 8/5 10:11 ---
|littlejimmy Posted on 8/5 10:03|
Point of order: Evolution has not been proven as a fact. It is a theory supported by empirical observations and evidence. I'm just pointing this out before someone else does.
IMO, I think God traditionally fills the void where science is not yet able to explain things. The void would appear to be shrinking as science expands, but the closer we look at the universe, the more complex it becomes, and the more questions arise.
|bucknutt Posted on 8/5 10:14|
Jimmy surely the find of the half ape half human skull proves evolution ?.
|Link: Ape Girl Lucy|
|littlejimmy Posted on 8/5 10:23|
It supports the theory, but it doesn't prove it as being an unassailable fact.
|trodbitch Posted on 8/5 10:25|
It doesn't prove it, but that's the way science works. At least science revises it's theories when new discoveries are made.
More evidence is found each time to support it, and it makes a convincing case against the zero items of evidence to support religion.
|Snoop_Smog Posted on 8/5 12:01|
Me and my religious brother have had many similar arguments over the years.
My point is that it is not possible for adam and eve to populate the world, like it is stated in the bible. And that even if this were to be true, the fact that there are now many different races / variations of humans derived from the original two only further proves evolution.
His argument is similar to those expressed previously on this post. That the ridiculously small percentile chance of primordial soup creating life, suggests that there is something more behind it.
I think we compromised in that evolution is probable, but only takes you so far. You can only look to the existance of some devide being to have started it off in the first place.
And thats my enlightened view on the subject
|wayvvee_dayvee Posted on 8/5 12:07|
we're a scientific experiment of the inhabitants of planet deltarungren exiled on earth to perish or flourish and evolve and develop enough to find our way home, bit like england did to australia in the 17/1800s .....probably
|Lefty3668 Posted on 8/5 13:01|
The Dawkins book that best explains Darwins theory of evolution AND natural selection (and The Prisoners video) is 'The Blind Watchmaker'.
This does not explain the origin of the original spark for life, as Dawkins admits, but it pretty much explains what comes after.
|BigHorace Posted on 8/5 13:49|
I'm with Pascal on this one. He's a philosopher, not a poster before you scroll back up. Look up his 'wager'.
|bucknutt Posted on 8/5 20:52|
One thing i don't get is the bible states that Adam and Eve started it all off and i remember getting told this at school.
So if they find a half ape half human skull thats proves at the time of the half ape's death humans where starting to evolve from monkeys.
Doesn't that prove the Bible to be bolocks forgive me if i am wrong as i admit i have never read the bible.
|getemgrezza Posted on 8/5 20:56|
THERE IS A GOD
|ThePrisoner Posted on 8/5 21:25|
Well number9point5 just in case you do pop in again ...
I didn't attack anyone, I merely found it remarkable that a five minute googling exercise brought up versions of your thesis on Yahoo (and a couple of other sites) and I am curious to know at which institution you did your dissertation.
I cannot question the probabilities stated as you don't cite your sources (though I suppose I could always try answersingenesis.org).
Evolutionists may come across as arrogant but that may be because of the reams of tested data that make the theory of evolution a very strong theory.
What puzzles me is how theists accept hundreds of scientific theories on a daily basis without question but go ape sh@t over evolution. Have you ever been in an aeroplane? Did you have confidence in the theory of the aerofoil and lift caused by forward motion? Scientists came up with a theory and verified it using testable evidence and observation. Still, it might still be wrong. I'd go by boat next time (as long as you believe in Archimedes principle of course).
Ah, lack of faith caused all the wars in the 20th Century did it? Next you'll be saying Stalin was an atheist!
I am accountable (and so is everyone) without any god. If you need a 'higher being' to keep you on the straight and narrow then 'gawd help you indeed!
|bucknutt Posted on 3/6 2:30|
A very good thread this was very interesting i watched this film last week and even though i have gone the way of evolution i found it very interesting.
fabric of time
Anyway something else i haven't mentioned yet is i know 100% that there's life after death or ghosts , spirits , or something because i have spoke to a dead person 100% fact this happened through an Ouija board , only myslef and 1 other person had a finger on the glass , i asked questions the other person could not know and even asked a couple i didn't know.
The answers where proved to be correct when i checked with family members so what does this prove.
I know 100% what happened that night to be real so does a god excist ? or can the human soul , spirit still communicate with the living after death with the right source ie a medium ect , or being in a place where it can happen ?.
Because although the spirit or force moving the glass claimed to be a family member , just before the family member came to the board , a young kid who died in a car crash was talking to us freely.
I can honestly say what i am saying is totaly true , but if i was talking to the deceased family member i thought i was or somebody else . the fact is a supernatural force was answering questions that nobody could know.
And the force that the glass was moving was incredible what this proves i don't know but it is 100% fact.
--- Post edited by bucknutt on 3/6 2:46 ---
|baldycrowe Posted on 3/6 2:56|
I must admit I would never read a post about GOD,so FUCKOFF>
|Senor_Chester Posted on 3/6 10:27|
Your mates probably still laughing at you now.
And by your logic I can say that I can be 100% sure that life after death or ghosts don't exist because I have never senn any or communicated with any.
--- Post edited by Senor_Chester on 3/6 10:29 ---
|kermit_the_smog Posted on 3/6 10:40|
Steve Gibson is Middlesbroughs very own Jesus Christ.
Sent down from god to sort us out.
Yet some people on here have tried to crucify him.