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Lurkalot Posted on 14/6 10:46
Should the Falklands War have happened?

25 years ago today, the Falklands War ended.

Think about it. Almost 1,000 people died, 255 of them Brits. 300 suicides in the following years have been attributed to post tramatic stress as a result of this war. Countless injuries too.

What was the point of it all, so the UK can say "all this moorland, these sheep, and this snow is ours"?

I hope Thatcher can sleep at night!

speckyget Posted on 14/6 10:48
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

No. Entirely avoidable.

Tom_Fun Posted on 14/6 10:48
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

No.

mick_dundee_Snr Posted on 14/6 10:50
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

It was Argenitnas fault not Thatchers. She was only protecting british interest and british citizens from a country who wanted to take them over.

Well done Thatcher and well done to all the brave men and women who did our country proud.

Sparkymctastic Posted on 14/6 10:51
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

Absolutely right it should have happened! It was British soil and those people who had Argie size 10s kicking in their doors and occupying their homes were British citizens.

speckyget Posted on 14/6 10:51
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

So why did she give Galtieri the green light to invade?

Sparkymctastic Posted on 14/6 10:53
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

What??

hicktonspenaltyrunup Posted on 14/6 10:53
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

I don't think Thatcher knows whether it is Day or night, these days.
If she did, she would be completely unrepentant about all her actions whilst in Politics.
When I used to watch her on TV, from '79 onwards, I always had the feeling she was slightly mad.If you look at footage now, it's quite scary.

mick_dundee_Snr Posted on 14/6 10:53
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

Spot on Sparky.

joseph99 Posted on 14/6 10:55
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

No! The "war" salvaged Maggie's political career. The Belgrano was an illegal act and a murderous one. Allowing so many of our fine young people as well as so many Argentinians to perish for political power is tantamount to murder.

mick_dundee_Snr Posted on 14/6 10:57
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

Bollox. They invaded a country under our soveriegnty, threatened the brit citizens there and paid the price. You reap what you sew.

speckyget Posted on 14/6 10:58
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

Withdrawal of British Nationality from Falkland Islanders in 1981; withdrawal of HMS Endurance.

Lurkalot Posted on 14/6 10:58
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

British interest that's what ... 8,000 miles from the UK?

Remind me how far it is from Argentina will you?

British?????

BobUpndown Posted on 14/6 10:59
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

They, should not have invaded.. we all know it's closer to them than us, ya don't say.. but it was their dictatorship that decided it would be good show of strength and nationalistic power to 'invade'

Thatcher did the right thing, she'd not have been re-elected on the back of it, given the events..

I reckon they could have negotiated an amicable resolution to the situation if they hadn't gone ahead with the invasion..

joseph99 Posted on 14/6 11:00
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

My Dad's best mate died on the Atlantic Conveyor.

Sparkymctastic Posted on 14/6 11:00
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

Absolute tosh. I only wish with Iraq we had even a fraction of the moral high ground we occupied in '82. They were an aggressive, completely unjustifiable, invading force and I am proud that we as the British people didn't stand for it. Go to Stanley a tell the Islanders we should not have used military force, that we should have gone to the UN and asked them to please get rid of the soldiers and demand an immediate apology for the men they killed.

mick_dundee_Snr Posted on 14/6 11:01
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

We were right in what we did. Thankfully our soldiers and political leaders had the backbone for the fight.

Some of you cowardly gets on here oughta be ashemed.

--- Post edited by mick_dundee_Snr on 14/6 11:02 ---

Celestron Posted on 14/6 11:01
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

"Withdrawal of British Nationality from Falkland Islanders in 1981"...are you sure?.

Kilburn Posted on 14/6 11:02
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

No.

The Argentinians should not have invaded. Invading another country's sovereign territory is a grave violation (also see Iraq).

Both sides subsequently committed acts that they should not be proud of, but the initial invasion was unjustifiable.

PV86 Posted on 14/6 11:03
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

A bloke called Carrington who was the foreign secretary could have prevented the war, but cocked up. He should have been tried for treason and hung. Instead he resigned and got a Lordship!

(While we're on, Blair should be tried for being a war criminal and should be hung.)

Scarface_Boro Posted on 14/6 11:03
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

Get ready for a second invasion, believe me it's coming, the argies are going to try take advantage of our over stretched forces!

Sparkymctastic Posted on 14/6 11:05
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

I wish they would, I've served down there- It's boring as. Anything to break up the monotony.

I sense a fish with this one, where's that outrageous statements thread gone?

joseph99 Posted on 14/6 11:06
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

Would Maggie have been so brave if it was a nation with a first class military set up that had invaded one of our insignificant sovereign ruled countries? Russia, China, USA, France, etc etc? We bumbled along and inflicted massive causalties against a tinpot army and airforce. Mistake afte mistake was made by the stupid inbred cheifs.

Also ask yourself, would you die for Maggie?

Dundee_Gadgey Posted on 14/6 11:06
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

Job that had to be done. Was totally avoidable. Mrs T was right in this instance. Can't abide the woman. Laid waste to Teesside, and clearly enjoyed it.
We could not be bullied out of this Island. There could have been a negotiated settlement. But it suited both sides to go to war over this.But who, ultimately paid the price, the servicemen and women of both sides, that's who...

Scarface_Boro Posted on 14/6 11:11
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

I saw a small news news report a few months back, saying relations between the two country's was deteriorating and that they were stock piling weapons, the report was only about 10 seconds long on one of the main news channels.

speckyget Posted on 14/6 11:17
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

Celestron

1981 British Nationality Act withdrew British citizenship from any Islander without a parent or grandparent born in Britain.

NickTheJew Posted on 14/6 11:17
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

"British interest that's what ... 8,000 miles from the UK?

Remind me how far it is from Argentina will you?

British?????"

Doesn't matter how far away it is, the population of the island is predominantly British. Would you allow Spain to take Gibraltar by force now even though the population do not want Spanish rule?

Now imagine that Spain was a brutal dictatorship now and you would be even more against it.

The geography shouldn't be the issue only the wishes of the inhabitants.

People say that we went to war only for political benefit, that is the only reason the Junta invaded the Falklands, they have no real value to the government.

moxzin87 Posted on 14/6 11:29
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

The Falklands War was about self-determination. The islanders didn't want to become Argentine and live under a fascist government - and Argentinia didn't exist when the islands were ceded to Britain.

Its all very well to argue that Thatcher did well out of the war, but its a big leap of imagination to say she started it. In the hierarchy of causes I think having a teeteering military junta which badly needed glory in Argentina, and the full scale invasion that followed, are probably higher up than destroyers and citizenship.

There could have been a settlement without war but given that Argentinia was the invader, anything less than full sovereignty back to Britain would have rewarded that aggression - I'm not sure the diplomats were angling for that.

It was a war that was forced upon us, we happened to win but it didn't have to be like that, it was very close. As I said on the other thread, it was tragic that so many people died, but blaming it on the UK government over and above General Galtieri is masochism. Galtieri had the blood of those Argentines on his hands, and whats more his country knew it.

mick_dundee_Snr Posted on 14/6 11:32
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

And there you have the definitive explanation.

Well put sir.

OooOo Posted on 14/6 11:33
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

All war is wrong, it happens because of a break down in diplomacy. Thatcher did not give diplomacy a chance - nether did Blair in Iraq.

littleboro Posted on 14/6 11:34
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

...um tricky one.

they invaded our land.

it was konwn that the argy leader needed something to gain popular support at home.

the tory's at the time were cutting back on the forces and also the royal navy. they didn't think we required a south atlantic naval presence, and hence withdrew the navy from the area.

a green light.

a few weeks before the argy landing some argy scrap merchants landed on one of the lslands. britain did nothing and that was the final green light for the argy invasion.

strangly enough the USA, special relationship, refused to help us after the argy landing, but did say that they wouldn't interfere---monroe doctrine.

an interest fact (?) was that in the callaghan era, the argies sent a small force out toward the falklands. he sent a nuelear sub down there and the argies went back to base.

as for the The Belgrano it was apparently sailing away, in international waters but still a risk. it was war hence it was sunk.

it helped thatcher to keep power and the argy leader out. politians for you. as they say on all these talent wannabee tv programmes "you've got to seize your oppertunity," sadly this doesn't include our forces who sadly lost their lives, the ones with the post combat stress and any of the forces who ended up there.

at present the torys want a public commision to look into the errors of the iraq war. they had one over the falklands but that was held behind closed doors and the report kept secret. the torys still trying to "seize the oppertunity,"

strange that thatcher becomes a hero over the falklands and blair is not over iraq. some politians are brighter than others!!!

regarding the first post on this tread there was a band, cant remember who, "how does it feel to be the mother of a thousand dead?"

Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 14/6 11:35
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

A show of strength by a right wind fanatic....was countered by a show of strength from.......a right wing fanatic.

The latter knew it was going to happen and allowed it knowing that it would increase her support. Simple as that, with a complete diregard for the lives of the servicemen she knew would die.

Tom_Fun Posted on 14/6 11:37
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

"All war is wrong, it happens because of a break down in diplomacy."

All war? What did you want Neville Chamberlain to do, ask him nicely again?

trodbitch Posted on 14/6 11:40
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

Spot on, mox.

I watched a programme the other night called "Andrew Marr's History of Modern Britain" and he covered the Thatcher era. There's no doubt there was some political benefits she enjoyed from it but that doesn't mean she engineered the whole thing. After watching that, I had a certain admiration for her which shocked me as my family suffered as a result of her policies in the 80s. She did some ugly things which but I think they had to be done. This includes the Falklands.

speckyget Posted on 14/6 11:41
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

'it was a war that was forced upon us'


Not necessarily so mox - I take it you've encountered the concept of contributory negligence?

joseph99 Posted on 14/6 11:43
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

At the time the UK was bordering on a deep recession, riots were commonplace, unemployment rife and people living on the mainland were seriously suffering. Surely the massive costs incurred by saving a couple of flocks of sheep and a few sheepshaggers could have been spent more cost effectively. There again, we know that Thatcher was an unscrupulous hard-faced bitch!

Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 14/6 11:44
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

'Andrew Marr's History'. Says it all.

trodbitch Posted on 14/6 11:45
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

Pardon me for having an open mind. Did you watch it? Do you know what he said? No? Right, then.

--- Post edited by trodbitch on 14/6 11:45 ---

speckyget Posted on 14/6 11:46
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

I watched it trod. His conclusion was that she was 'lucky'. It would have been just as easy to lose as to win.

green_beret20 Posted on 14/6 11:52
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

Oh yes, I'm sure Maggie sat there with a step by step plan of the Argie invasion.

A invades B.
B retaliates and kicks A's butt.

What is it about these left wing nutters whom seem to look for conspiracy theories when a western country is attacked. Its as though you seem to hate the idea of a western country even remotely to be seen as a victim. Thereís always some X file esk motive behind it all.

We were attacked and we retaliated, deal with it.

--- Post edited by green_beret20 on 14/6 11:53 ---

speckyget Posted on 14/6 11:53
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

But it was avoidable. Not conspiracy - cock up.

--- Post edited by speckyget on 14/6 11:53 ---

moxzin87 Posted on 14/6 11:57
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

Make your mind up specky - was it a cock-up or did she give the green light to invade?

green_beret - it follows though doesn't it. If capitalism is the cause of all wars, and we're the capitalists then...

trodbitch Posted on 14/6 11:58
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

Speckyget, I agree - she was lucky. She was the luckiest PM of all-time, arguably.

You can say it was avoidable but once they invaded was she supposed t say "well, I did partially contribute to this" and sit back?

If the Argentine government had asked her if her change of nationality status and the withdrawal of HMS Endurance meant she was ok for them to take back the Falklands, she'd have said no. So why would they think invasion would be accepted?

Chutney Posted on 14/6 12:00
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

I think he means the cock up was as good as a green light.

But then again, specky's mind is a complex place...

bigtl_billingham Posted on 14/6 12:02
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

reading a book about the Bombing raids on the Falklands at the moment - called Vulcan 607
Very good read,

Sparkymctastic Posted on 14/6 12:06
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

Speckyget, you're talking absolute rubbish, it infuriates me when some self-righteous arrsehole looks back with 20-20 hindsights and blames an invading forces actions on minor political decisions made by the victim. I have met people who suffered through the Argentinian occupation who would quite happily punch you all day up and down Thatcher Road in Stanley for suggesting we asked for it.
I only hope that one day you may need the help of the Paras and Marines when you find yourself on the wrong end of some hellbent foreign aggressor, be it on safari in africa or your hols in the far east. And despite the scorn you pour on those fine men, they will still risk and give their lives to save yours.

Now give us some more of your world theories from that comfy chair you're sat in....

speckyget Posted on 14/6 12:13
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

Mox - in what sense would giving a green light not be a cock up?

Thatcher at her mean minded pennypinching worst - save a few bob and squander lives and billions as a result.


Sparky - not hindsight, I remember this like it was yesterday. Also you're missing the point. The tragedy is that those men's bravery was squandered unnecessarily. Do you always get this frisky because someone disagrees with you?

Sparkymctastic Posted on 14/6 12:16
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

Only when they talk such shoite I can smell it across the ether.

speckyget Posted on 14/6 12:19
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

Ah right - playground name calling. That'll win the argument every time.

trodbitch Posted on 14/6 12:19
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

Specky, I think anyone who took those actions as a green light is clearly deranged, frankly. Should we form our governmental policy to satisfy the lowest common denominator to avoid the crazy buggers thinking we are inviting an invasion?

I don't think what you suggest as a green light can ever be used to excuse an invasion.

madlad Posted on 14/6 12:21
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

Firstly, it was not a war - it was a conflict - neither side declared war on each other!
Secondly, and having been there after the war in the mid 90's, if you say that the conflict was unavoidable and not really worth it to a Falkland Islander, you'll not last long.
yes, lives were lost, but if you want an example of an avoidable on-going "war", look at Iraq. Job was done, stay for a few months, then get out - if you feel the need to be there at all, that is.
Why we are still there is a genuine mystery....Blair, lapdog..fingers clicking...Bush....there you go.
To say the Falklands was avoidable and a waste is just bloody ignorance.

Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 14/6 12:21
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

I watched his programme, I watch his other shows too and occassionally read his newspaper work. I'd say if you take everything dished out on the telly as being the truth your mind is anything but open.

Try reading some alternatve histories to make your own mind up.

NickTheJew Posted on 14/6 12:23
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

"Mox - in what sense would giving a green light not be a cock up?

Thatcher at her mean minded pennypinching worst - save a few bob and squander lives and billions as a result.


Sparky - not hindsight, I remember this like it was yesterday. Also you're missing the point. The tragedy is that those men's bravery was squandered unnecessarily. Do you always get this frisky because someone disagrees with you?"

talkingoutofyourarse.

trodbitch Posted on 14/6 12:28
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

"I watched his programme, I watch his other shows too and occassionally read his newspaper work. I'd say if you take everything dished out on the telly as being the truth your mind is anything but open.

Try reading some alternatve histories to make your own mind up."

You patronising get. My mind is open precisely because I *don't* just watch one programme or read one thing. Quite how you decided that I absorb whatever is 'dished out', is anyone's guess. Perhaps you need to open your own mind and not be so quick to presume so much from so little?

speckyget Posted on 14/6 12:28
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

Who's excusing anything? My point is that the signals sent were entirely inconsistent with any intention to defend the Falklands.

Do you think this was the first time Argentina had made a play for the Islands? Read David Owen's autobiography.

speckyget Posted on 14/6 12:30
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

NickTheJew - another incapable of rational or informed debate. Grow up.

NickTheJew Posted on 14/6 12:31
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

So you are excusing the invasion by a dictatorship to land that is occupied by a population that doesn't want their presence.

Because it worked out so well when Hitler was doing that kind of thing in the 30's.......

speckyget Posted on 14/6 12:33
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

If you could point out where I have excused the invasion I'd be interested.

Sparkymctastic Posted on 14/6 12:33
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

I'm flabbergasted specky! Whatthefuckareyoutalkingabout? The signals sent are completely irrelevent, thats where you're excusing the invasion. If I go away with work am I sending signals to the criminal elements that are contrary to my intention to defend my own home? "Right oh lads, free for all at Sparkys- grab those CDs ya pikey gets, tuck your trackies in to your socks and stuff 'em down your pants..."

--- Post edited by Sparkymctastic on 14/6 12:34 ---

NickTheJew Posted on 14/6 12:34
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

You are the one who is incapable, you give a completely unbalanced polarized opinion so I'm firing one right back at you.

trodbitch Posted on 14/6 12:37
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

Sparky, that's exactly what I feel about it.

Like I said above, if they had contacted us to ask if we had changed our stance what would the answer have been? No, and I think they knew that too.

littleboro Posted on 14/6 12:41
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

sparky

dont do the green light when you go out, leave a white light on, otherwise when you return your house could be full of argies watching your tv and empting your fridge.


Sparkymctastic Posted on 14/6 12:43
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

What would be worse, Pikeys or Argies?

littleboro Posted on 14/6 12:47
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

if you've iron railings the pikeys would leave with them, whilst the argies may only take your "great world memories dvd" including "the hand of god crisis."

now if there was a green light for anything, the "hand of god crisis" was certainly a reason to invade argentina, but thatcher "cocked up" on that one.

Derby_Red Posted on 14/6 12:47
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

Discuss it with Julio Arca after you've finished celebrating his next Boro goal with him.

speckyget Posted on 14/6 12:48
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

Sparky - if you turned your burglar alarm off and informed the local ne'erdowell fraternity, some might argue you will have contributed. Your insurers certainly would.

NickTheJew - unbalanced? Based on facts and memories of the time. Do you recall the Private Eye cartoon from 1982? Statue of Thatcher with the legend 'They Died to Save Her Face'.

Dundee_Gadgey Posted on 14/6 12:50
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

The Trodbitch name suits you. People have their opinions and are allowed to voice them. Don't agree with speckyget. But like me he can remember the event. It was a war both sides were "happy" to fight, and how they got there, is now somewhat moot. I don't beleive Mrs T engineered it, but it turned out to be a real "gift". Watching TV progammes, no matter how many or who or read whatever, doesn't beat the memories of people who were there in terms of their point of view. Whilst Marr et al have their resources, education, and intellect, they are voicing an opinion. Specky's(however much I may disagree) is as useful, and shouldn't be scorned. I agree we should not have appeased, and ultimately we were left(and made sure that we were left) with no choice....

red_rebel2 Posted on 14/6 12:55
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

It was a clash of two unpopular governments who saw the potential for political diversion as the situation developed. I don'tthink either side enginnered it but there was opportunism on both sides.

For all the talk of the need to preserve Britishness and sovereignty, as Specky has pointed out, the Tory government had been making moves to downgrade the Malvinas from 'colony' to 'crown dependency' in the 1981 Nationality Act.

It wasn't that they were ready to cast the islands adrift but a by=product of bigger machinations elsewhere - they were pulling up teh drawbridge in Hong Kong and making legal moves to prevent millions of Chinese being eligible for passports and residency come 1997 - but it sent out mixed messages to the Argentine junta.

Theer were talks at the UN about the islands and i think considerable international support for some kind of process that would lead to talks on joint soveriegnty.

That combined with the withdrawal of naval support persuaded the increasingly desparate dictatorship to test Britain resolve and after the South Georgia incident it escalated quickly out of control. The junta were already at war with their own people and to extend the military option was a small step for them. They hoped a success would head off widespread revolutionary agitation.

Thatcher found herself in a position that was not of her making but reacted shrewdly. The polls showed here as the most unpopular PM ever, the country was wracked with strikes, riots, mass demonstartions, recession, a split in the Tory party ... an overseas adventure offered the prospect of uniting the party, wheeling the press behind her and striking a patriotic chord.

She was lucky. Had it gone wrong - which it very nearly did - she was finished. As it was it was a financial and strategic disaster but a political success. It cemented her position in the party (it was followed by a purge of the wets), made her massively popular with the press and - thanks partly to the support of Labour and the trade unions who are always quick to wrap themselves up in the union jack - neutralised the opposition. She remained widely unpopular but was incredibly powerful.

The downside - apart from the thousands of needless deaths - was the escalation of the Thatcherite slash and burn attack on the state.

The upside was that it brought down one of the nastiest regimes in the world, sparking a popular revolt in Argentina and leading to the end of the "Dirty War" of violence and torture, death squads and trigger happy soldiers used against ordinary people that had killed and 'disappeared' far far more than the few weeks of conflict with Britain.

Ironically, while the British have added the dirty Argies to their list of historic enemies to be hated as a rite of passage, the Argentinians actually love the Brits and are grateful for the Malvinas episode becauise it led to their liberation from a vicious tyranny.

speckyget Posted on 14/6 12:59
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

Dundee_Gadgey - I would never advocate appeasement once sovereign territory has been breached. It was right that we met force with force. My points are all around deterrence (that was used in the 70s) and Thatcher's erosion of this, which Galtieri took as a 'come on'.

--- Post edited by speckyget on 14/6 14:37 ---

trodbitch Posted on 14/6 13:07
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

"The Trodbitch name suits you. People have their opinions and are allowed to voice them. Don't agree with speckyget. But like me he can remember the event."

So you are going to throw personal insults at me while upholding someone's right to have an opinion despite whether we disagree or not? Do I not have a right to an opinion, to disagree or be disagreed with? I'm certainly not going to stoop to personal insults when people paid the ultimate sacrifice.

I haven't got personal with speckyget, and at no point have a I event hinted that his opinion is not 'allowed'. I certainly haven't scorned his opinion, I just don't particularly agree with it.

In fact, having read your post I agree it was a 'gift' to Thatcher, I think it fell into her lap rather than was engineered.

"Watching TV progammes, no matter how many or who or read whatever, doesn't beat the memories of people who were there in terms of their point of view."

True, but I don't see what your point is with me on this. I haven't dismissed the opinions of anyone who was there. I don't think you *had* to be there to have a valid opinion though.

So, in summary, why have I been singled out for your little dig? It's very perplexing.

--- Post edited by trodbitch on 14/6 13:10 ---

Lefty3668 Posted on 14/6 13:11
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

Can't believe this thread. I didn't think there were this many nob-heads about. Is it a wind up? We've had this argument several times.

Specky is right. The war could have been avoided, just like the previous Labour Government heeded the warnings in an identical situation and competently handled the crisis. All it took was sending a nuclear sub and letting the Argies know it was there.

Thatcher was incompetent and arrogant. Junior Foreign Office minister Richard Luce stood up in the Commons and warned the Government that they were risking an invasion with the signals they were sending. He received one of the worst savagings ever seen in the House BY HIS OWN PARTY.

Moxy has not given 'the definitive explanation', he has merely provided a very good argument why we needed to act as we did once we lost the Islands.

Anyone ever heard 'prevention is better than cure'. It's less costly as well.

To those assholes getting on Specky's case, ask yourself this.

How much sympathy do you have for people who park their car in a dodgy area and leave it unlocked and their lap top in full view on the back seat, when they get it nicked? The Insurance companies don't have any sympathy cos they won't pay out.

That is the point we're making, not that the thief is not a scrote, but that the car owner is a fuckwit and the theft could have been avoided.


(Bugger, got distracted and by the time I came to post the above, the same points had already been made. Anyhow I'll leave it in cos I got to call people names and it's an annoying day so far)

--- Post edited by Lefty3668 on 14/6 13:14 ---

Sparkymctastic Posted on 14/6 13:12
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

Red, excellent comments but not to sure about your last statement.

Link: British popularity with Argentinians.

Derby_Red Posted on 14/6 13:12
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

I implore you all to re-read speckget's original post, I really think you've missed his point.

Cheers.

trodbitch Posted on 14/6 13:15
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

Done Derby:

"Should the Falklands War have happened?

No. Entirely avoidable."

I don't disagree with that for a second. I think it's more this that started the debate off:

"So why did she give Galtieri the green light to invade?"

I'm disagreeing with the idea that it was a fair and reasonable thing to start an invasion on the basis of a couple of political decisions.

NickTheJew Posted on 14/6 13:17
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

Just because it is possible to steal something does not give people the right to do so, what a ridiculous comment, and what a horrible world it would be if it was the case. Thieves are thieves regardless of the method used.

Chutney Posted on 14/6 13:18
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

'"So why did she give Galtieri the green light to invade?"

I'm disagreeing with the idea that it was a fair and reasonable thing to start an invasion on the basis of a couple of political decisions.'

And I'm disagreeing that the latter point can be derived from the former.

--- Post edited by Chutney on 14/6 13:20 ---

Sparkymctastic Posted on 14/6 13:18
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

Lefty, we are not talking about some scallywag that takes a laptop from an unlocked car. The Argentinian army invaded another country, murdered its defence force, emprisoned its inhabitants and trashed the Southern most city on this planet. Your analogy is mildly offencive to say the least.

Nedkat Posted on 14/6 13:20
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

BY CRIKEY ...!!

There's some right pillocks posting on this board ! Makes me wonder how they can even log onto the old t'internet!

Chutney Posted on 14/6 13:21
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

Actually, that started off as YOUR analogy.

trodbitch Posted on 14/6 13:23
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

A 'green light' is like saying 'go ahead', is it not? Saying Thatcher 'gave' him the green light is the same as saying she would have no problem with him invading.

Sparkymctastic Posted on 14/6 13:24
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

Ok, fair point Chutney, but it was taken a bit further by lefty. Someone invading your home is a lot closer to what happened than someone swiping your laptop from an unlocked car.

speckyget Posted on 14/6 13:27
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

Trod and others.

The argument isn't about whether Galtieri was right to invade, or whether he was right to take Thatcher's erosion of our deterrent as a 'green light'. The facts of the matter are that he did both of these things.

The argument is therefore around 'should Thatcher have realised that he would do this?'

I think yes. And even if you argue that no-one could have predicted the outcome, was she right to take the risk for the sake of saving bugger all money? In my estimation she was recklessly incompetent.

red_rebel2 Posted on 14/6 13:29
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

Semantically speaking there is a problem inherent with the phrase "gave the green light" as it implies some kind of consent which is clearly not the case.

In fact the political ineptitude and negligence comes from Thatcher not seeing waht were actually clear flashing warning signals accompanied by hooters being given out by Argentina and by her own diplomats and military staff.

In some ways that is worse because the information was there to be acted on and was ignored. Had the war gone wrong this would no doubt have formed the basis of the inquiry to nail her afterwards

NickTheJew Posted on 14/6 13:30
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

The lead up to the conflict could have been handled better and war would have been avoided that way, it is true, but it is all so easy to say now after it has happened, but once the invasion had occurred there was no other way to resolve it other than to defend the islands with military force.

Again what would people say to an unwelcome Spanish invasion of Gibraltar?

And then if the Spanish was a brutal dictatorship?

Would you not want to defend the people there and their best interests?

trodbitch Posted on 14/6 13:31
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

Specky, your last post *does* make your point a lot clearer.

And I think Rebel makes a good point with the ""gave the green light" phrase which is certainly how I took it.

Later, gents!

Chutney Posted on 14/6 13:32
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

You need to disseminate more thoroughly, trod - the actions acted as a green light as in "ooh look, it's all clear" rather than a direct invitation.

And it still doesn't mean that anyone's classed Galtieri's actions as "fair and reasonable".

Erm, or what reb said.

--- Post edited by Chutney on 14/6 13:33 ---

speckyget Posted on 14/6 13:34
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

NickTheJew

That's the whole point. She had information and precedents at the time to which she applied her characteristic pigheadedness. She couldn't be told anything.

Not using hindsight at all.

--- Post edited by speckyget on 14/6 13:35 ---

Boro_Gadgie Posted on 14/6 13:34
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

Maybe the government could have done more to avoid it. It could be argued that we should have been better prepared. However, once the Argies invaded, they had to leave or be kicked out. They chose the latter.

It was the Argies who started it. Whatever blame you attach to the government for being caught napping, they chose to invade, so the responsibilty is their's, not Thatcher's. Galtieri's government was unpopular and this was their way of galvanising their own people.

--- Post edited by Boro_Gadgie on 14/6 13:38 ---

NickTheJew Posted on 14/6 13:38
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

You are correct we could have stationed 100 nuclear warheads there and 100 Fighter Jets and 20000 troops

But in reality you shouldn't need anything other than a flag and the knowledge that should you invade this land by force you shall be removed.

You can blame the lack of naval protection etc but no one forced the Argentina government to send troops there (even lying to their own troops saying it was an exercise) and ultimately they are the ones to blame.

Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 14/6 13:38
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

Trodbitch, have a read of your first reply to me, who is doing the assuming?

Lefty3668 Posted on 14/6 13:39
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

Ok, aware that your next door neighbour is a drug addict desperate for a hit, do you let him know that you're going away for the weekend, leave the window open and decide that fixing your broken alarm would be a waste of money?

Or do you ask someone to house sit?

Mrs T decided it didn't matter because she could order other peoples sons off to get her possessions back.

trodbitch Posted on 14/6 13:39
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

Chutney, I try to disseminate the best I can and you have to use your experience of what people have said before (on this board at least) to better judge the true meaning behind someone's words. I don't really have that much experience of specky's political posts and I wasn't deliberately trying to pick the more controversial interpretation of his words.

That said, it's very difficult to change your interpretation of a few wrods when they are used over and over.

As said, fair play to specky, I respect his opinion even if I don't agree. In this instance, I understand more clearly what he is saying so am happy to concede the point.

Derby_Red Posted on 14/6 13:41
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

Yeh - I took the "green light" thing to be in reference to the "prevention is better than cure" act Lefty refers to. I didn't read it that it's ok to invade anywhere you want if the original incumbents are a bit dim.

I thought Speckyget was making the point that the government's sheer incompetence made the Argentine junta *think* the UK was no longer interested in the islands to the extent that they had withdrawn naval forces from the area. I'm sure there was no conspiracy, and I'm sure no-one in the UK government intended to cause an invasion, and I'm sure no-one in a UK government wanted the islanders to be forcefully invaded. I AM sure the whole situation pre-invasion was a disgrace on behalf of the government and they totally misread the whole political landscape and in doing so failed to defend sovereign territory adequately. Which is indefensible for a nation's premier, don't you think?

trodbitch Posted on 14/6 13:42
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

Corcaigh:

"'Andrew Marr's History'. Says it all."

It was patronising and dismissive, do you expect me not to react to it? If you had been a bit more constructive, I wouldn't have responded in that way.

speckyget Posted on 14/6 13:45
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

Yes, what you said Derby.

There are plenty who would have you believe that given the transformation of her political fortunes Thatcher must somehow have 'engineered' the invasion. I wouldn't agree with that.

NickTheJew Posted on 14/6 13:48
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

"Ok, aware that your next door neighbour is a drug addict desperate for a hit, do you let him know that you're going away for the weekend, leave the window open and decide that fixing your broken alarm would be a waste of money?

Or do you ask someone to house sit?

Mrs T decided it didn't matter because she could order other peoples sons off to get her possessions back."

Very manipulative. Addiction is an illness, invading a country is not.

joseph99 Posted on 14/6 13:49
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

Since when do political leaders make a decision based on the primary effect of that desision. They're all the same. The reason the US dropped a couple of a-bombs on Japan was not to end the war in the pacific - it was to flex its muscles to the russians and t start a cold war. Thatcher knew what she was doing or at least her advisors would have. I cannot believe that people are suggesting we nearly lost the conflict, agree that first wave could have but not the second.

trodbitch Posted on 14/6 13:50
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

Nick, that might be true but it's only a matter of time before someone comes up with an analogy that fits the circumstances better.

Sparkymctastic Posted on 14/6 13:53
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

I think people are exagerating the governments awareness of the threat prior to South Georgia quite considerably. To say that Thatcher did not see what were actually clear flashing warning signals accompanied by hooters being given out by Argentina, is grossly inaccurate. Blaming it on her pigheadedness is to suggest that she didnt give a toss whereas in fact she just didnt realise (still negligent, yes, but hardly criminal). Let us not forget that many reports have claimed that well over 90% of the population had either never heard of the Falklands or thought they were in Scotland.

Chutney Posted on 14/6 13:54
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

Fair enough, trodders, although in the spirit of the thread you could have at least called me a do gooder smartarse.

SuperBokSupper Posted on 14/6 13:54
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

"All war is wrong, it happens because of a break down in diplomacy."

Incorrect.

War is justifiable and always will be.

Your utopian views are impractical and will never happen IMO

Sparkymctastic Posted on 14/6 13:56
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

Joseph 99, that is one of the most bizzarre posts I have ever read. Can I have a cup of what you're on please?

keelo Posted on 14/6 13:56
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

My Dad's best mate died on the Atlantic Conveyor.

Ernie Vickers died on the Atlantic Conveyor,I sailed with him a few times too

speckyget Posted on 14/6 13:58
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

'I cannot believe that people are suggesting we nearly lost the conflict'

We did nearly lose joseph. You can't imagine how stunned the public were when the Sheffield went down, turning to disbelief with the Sir Galahad and the rest. We were already overstretched navally, those ships took years to replace. But had a couple of more capital ships gone down I reckon we would have had to seek a ceasefire.

joseph99 Posted on 14/6 13:58
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

Sparky, I'll share a cup if you share with me your DVD collection of war movies.

NickTheJew Posted on 14/6 13:59
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

People like to find people to blame to make themselves some how superior to others, its sad.

How's this for an analogy, If Teesside had no military bases, the Danes had been making noises about reclaiming land that was theirs from Viking times, and then launched a surprise attack and occupied the Cleveland hills, would you blame the government for then removing the invaders or would you just think, oh well maybe we should have listened, unlucky lads and lasses of teesside, pillaging it is for you!

joseph99 Posted on 14/6 14:01
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

I am old enough to remember the Falklands too. Yes we lost a couple of ships (due to negligence on our part) but there is no way we could have lost to couple of kids in uniforms. FFS even Prince Andrew was involved - that's how confident we were.

red_rebel2 Posted on 14/6 14:04
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

Sparky:

the junior defence minister responsible for the South Atlantic, Richard Luce, made a statement to the House of Commons outlining his grave concerns about how Argentina would react to withdrawing the symbolic naval cover and categorically stated that defence intelligence chiefs feared that military action by the junta was a realistic possibility and urging reconsideration.

How loud a hooter do you need?

Nedkat Posted on 14/6 14:06
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

A murder of crows ..
A flock of sheep ..
A school of whales ..


What do they call it when so many "experts" get together ?

speckyget Posted on 14/6 14:08
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

NickTheJew

You're assuming there that the Falklands dispute started in 1982.

NickTheJew Posted on 14/6 14:09
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

A crock i do believe

joseph99 Posted on 14/6 14:11
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

Put it this way: would Thatcher and her advisors gone to war if there was a risk that they would have been turned over? I don't think so - diplomacy would have been used.

trodbitch Posted on 14/6 14:12
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

Well what are your thoughts ned? I'd be happy to hear them, for one.

ccole Posted on 14/6 14:21
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

No it should never have happened.

We could have given the Argies 48 hours to pull out after invading; telling them that failure to do so would result in us nuking Buenos Aires.

Thatís why we have nuclear weapons.

The subsequent shortage and rationing of corn beef in the UK would have been offset by the fact we would have beaten them in the 1986 World Cup, beating the Germans in the final. Two national victories with one missile.

Simple

Lefty3668 Posted on 14/6 14:34
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

You want a better analogy?

How about if you owned an island and the government in the nearest territory was in desperate economic trouble and needed to do something drastic to regain popularity and cling to power, and knowing that regaining your island has always been a popular cause with the people of said country would you

a) Send them a big fuckoff signal such as a nuclear submarine with orders to turn any attempted invasion into a military disaster that would bring the junta down quicker that Evita Perons knickers

or

b) Remove all military presence, introduce legislation to suggest that like most of your former empire you'll be ditching the island soon, then cross your fingers?

trodbitch Posted on 14/6 14:35
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

Jees, what a contrived analogy

Nedkat Posted on 14/6 14:36
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

I was at sea at the time, somewhere in the mid-Atlantic ocean at 300 feet below the surface, in a nuclear submarine, carrying nuclear missiles.

Lefty3668 Posted on 14/6 14:38
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

Good grief Joseph, there was considerable risk.

Have you any idea how many ships were holed but the bombs didn't go off?

The point is the men she sent down there, as is so often the case, had to perform near miracles to win.

joseph99 Posted on 14/6 14:39
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

Ned answers a few good points in one succinct sentence. We would never have lost the conflict and Maggie knew it!

Lefty3668 Posted on 14/6 14:39
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

Was that before Argentina invaded, Ned?

trodbitch Posted on 14/6 14:42
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

Ned, frustration probably doesn't even start to explain it.

joseph99 Posted on 14/6 14:42
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

Oh right - 1100 men surrended to 250 Paras on Goose Green - remind me - how many years **ahem ... weeks** did the conflict last?

Derby_Red Posted on 14/6 14:44
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

So you were hiding, Ned, is that what you're saying? <insert irony symbol>

But wouldn't you have been on deterrent patrol in any event?

Are people seriously imagining we would have used Polaris against Argentina? Incredible!



--- Post edited by Derby_Red on 14/6 14:57 ---

Nedkat Posted on 14/6 14:44
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

Ahhhm 18 .. with a bullet !

Got my finger on the trigger, gonna pull it ...

NickTheJew Posted on 14/6 14:46
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

Of course there was risk, what conflict does not have risk, however we were sending our best trained troops (Commandos, Paras, Special forces) that were well equipped and highly motivated against a conscript army that many did not even know they were invading, there was only going to be one winner between the 2.

neilteesside Posted on 14/6 14:51
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

no

speckyget Posted on 14/6 14:52
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

Does anyone seriously imagine we would have used nuclear weapons to win this war?

NickTheJew Posted on 14/6 14:58
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

obviously not, he was just making a silly point

Derby_Red Posted on 14/6 15:12
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

As silly as "there was only one winner"?

Read the history books, is my advice, especially those written by people who were there.

Gillandi Posted on 14/6 15:15
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

I dont think anyone's mentioned the role of the Lord of the Admiralty in all this at the time yet, to whom Thatcher gave the call of whether to send a task force or not. The most political and opportunistic player in the whole game wasn't he? In his heart he didnt think it was possible but for a beleaguered Royal Navy, being cut back out of existence, the war offered the chance to get it back on it's feet.

Which throws up the issue of whether the country needed a strong Navy at the time? We know we definately couldn't afford one. Did we need one enough to sacrifice the lives of the service people.

I dont know where I stand on that now. I've been against the Falklands War for 25 years (and a few weeks) but age has mellowed me and programmes like Andrew Marr's the other night, which I thought was excellent btw, have got me re-examining my beliefs like we all should when we see the effects in clear hindsight.

Looking at it now, I think there was something to be said for the Lord Admiralties comment that if we dont reclaim the islands, Britain will never be looked at as the same country again. I felt a bit of pity looking back at the Britain Marr described and that I remember living through. I didnt realise it at 18, I thought it was just a laugh, not being particularly bright but Britain itself, never mind Argentina, was on the brink of civil war.

Red rebels already said that events lead to an improved Argentina. I find it difficult to say they didn't lead to an improved Britain too. Give me the country of just before Tony Blair took over from the one of 1982.

I'd be interested in peoples opinions on which way our country would have gone had we tamely acquiesced to the Junta of Argentina and handed the islands back.

Where would Kinnock or Heseltine have taken us? I seriously need some guidance here because i'm espousing Thatcherism for the first time in my life.

Old liberal losing his way here. Rebel/Specky/someone, help me.

Tell me the BBC are re-writing history for the benefit of the state, that'll get me back on track.







--- Post edited by Gillandi on 14/6 15:25 ---

Lefty3668 Posted on 14/6 15:16
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

Sorry NicktheJew, but that is taking things far too much for granted. A bit like the Politicians 'we can fuckup, but it's ok cos our armed forces can sort it out' attitude.

There were highly trained people on the Sheffield. Not much use against that exocet though, except to rescue the injured and maimed.

It was no foregone conclusion who would win. The military commanders certainly didn't think so. We nearly run out of ammo. The Argies didn't arm their bombs properly so that a lot of hits didn't go off. You are almost suggesting we just had to turn up and do a job, which is disrespectful to the extraordinary efforts of a large number of men.

joseph99 Posted on 14/6 15:24
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

And the reason Ned was there with his finger on the nuclear trigger being?

I am suspicious to know why a nuclear threat was not used to avoid a conflict?

Threatening to use nuclear attack was always a back up if the military chiefs had cocked things up (which they nearly did). The threat of nuclear warfare could have forced the Argies out of the Falklands, but would have lacked political kudos.

The leader needed some feel-good factor and some good old fashioned flag waving.

--- Post edited by joseph99 on 14/6 15:30 ---

red_rebel2 Posted on 14/6 15:26
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

Gillandi, *slap* pull your self together man.

Gillandi Posted on 14/6 15:35
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

It's this dang country music Red, honest, i'm starting to think like a Texan (albeit from Houston, the only city in Texas that votes Democrat.) Dont worry, the books about Willie and Lefty are going down.

NickTheJew Posted on 14/6 15:39
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

Nuclear threat would have been an empty threat as there would be absolutely no way ever we would have dropped nuclear bombs for the falkalnds

Revol_Tees Posted on 14/6 15:50
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

I'll read the thread later, but needless to say, speckyget is right - it was entirely avoidable. This isn't even a particularly controversial opinion, and is well supported by the historical record.

The Foreign Office knew a diplomatic settlement was not only desirable but quite possible if they were allowed to pursue it, even if it took some military posturing. Galtieri had preliminarily accepted a peace proposal drafted by the UN and Peru by 2nd May but by then Thatcher just wasn't interested. War at all costs was her policy.

Gillandi Posted on 14/6 15:56
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

Thanks Revol, used saved me a lot of book reading...I can read em when im retired now and have more time. So it was sexy documents again wot done it. I'm back on track, ignore my last posts. I was just trying to get rid of some colonial guilt.

Reb? Is that smoothed over?

--- Post edited by Gillandi on 14/6 15:57 ---

NickTheJew Posted on 14/6 16:05
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

Not arguing that it could have been avoided with a deterrent naval presence there, but the fact remains that had Argentina not invaded there would have been no conflict at all, and so to lay the blame on our government is just wrong and not fair

Nedkat Posted on 14/6 17:18
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

The biggest mistake was sending the attack force down there without having superiority in the air. We lacked the presence of having additional Carriers, and therefore lost good men and ships due to the inadeqate air defenses.

The island is British, they invaded, we kicked 'em off !! Simple as that !!

hughiep Posted on 14/6 17:29
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

The government previous to thatcher was tipped off about a possible invasion, so made it known we had submarines in the area the argies did'nt invade.
Thatcher should have had intelligence reports about a possible invasion now either she did and she ignored them or she didnt get the reports she should have.
i had friends killed down there on the antelope and in my own mind i hold thatcher to blame, BUT once the invasion had taken place then we had to react or we would have been the laughing stock of the world.
There is a parade of remembrance in redcar on sunday morning starting at 1045 near the dotors on coatham road. I will be there remembering my fallen mates.

We will remember them.

Revol_Tees Posted on 14/6 18:03
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

Gillandi

I watched Marr's programme the other night, and thought it was like a party political broadcast for the Conservative Party. It was still enoyable though, and the part about the Falklands was still very insightful. I just think that if we look at the facts, it's becomes clear that it was an avoidable conflict that Thatcher recklessly steamed into for political reasons.

We know that the Foreign Office thought it best to pursue a diplomatic settlement and we know that Maggie was "in despair" until she spoke to the Lord of the Admiralty, as you mentioned. That was when the gung-ho approach was formulated and the so-called "wets" became sidelined.

We also know that the UN and Peru initiated peace talks and came up with a peace proposal which Galtieri preliminarily accepted on May 2nd. Scope for a settlement surely, or at least a postponement of hostilities? But no. This was around the same time as the Belgrano was sunk, outside the exclusion zone, sailing away from the Falklands, opening major hostilities. As Marr noted the other night, prospects for peace were blown out of the water with the Belgrano. Galtieri predictably rejected the peace plan the next day, citing the aforementioned.

Curiously enough, only once major exchanges had begun was the peace plan then accepted by Britain on May 5th: "Britain and Argentina acknowledge the existence of differing and conflicting views regarding the status of the Falkland Islands; The two Governments acknowledge that the aspirations and interests of the Islanders will be included in the definitive settlement of the status of the Islands." I'm sure this could have been agreed a few days earlier if the cabinet hadn't been so trigger-happy.

In that famous showdown with a housewife on live TV, Thatcher responded to claims that the Peruvian peace proposal must have reached London in the 14 hours between its publication and the sinking of the Belgrano by denying it. The peace proposals apparently didn't reach her. I can't believe she didn't know peace was being mooted - which I think would have been worth holding out for - but I think she probably favoured escalation at that point.

Lurkalot Posted on 14/6 18:11
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

Ned, the Falklands aren't really British though are they? I mean it's just another chunk of land which the empire grabbed way back when. India, Australia etc.

Thatcher should have been strung up long ago for what she did.

Revol_Tees Posted on 14/6 18:25
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

The argument about "self-determination" is an odd one because the Falklands are hardly independent, and its population comprised mainly of British ex-pats and/or people who would eventually retire in Britain itself. They didn't seem to want too much self-determination in the classic sense. It's basically a British colony where there are no elections and the governer is appointed by the British government (under royal prerogative I think).

Compare and contrast with the island of Diego Garcia in the Indian ocean. The "self-determination" of its native population - the Chagossians - far from being defended was completely obliterated when they were forcibly moved off the island by British forces to make way for a US base. It started in 1971 and finished 5 days before the Falklands were invaded, when a deal was agreed to give the Chagossians £4 million compensation for their trouble.

--- Post edited by Revol_Tees on 14/6 18:27 ---

Nedkat Posted on 14/6 18:26
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

How do you all know about all these Thatcher tips, and Galtiere's green lights ...??

Bugger me backwards, were you all in MI6 in those days ?

I was at sea at the time, my brother was down there in the war, and I also lost a few good mates.

PS, the Argies threatened to invade the Falklands in 1975, I know because I was on a Flag showing trip in the West Indies at the time, and we came very closer to going down there.

Sparkymctastic Posted on 14/6 18:33
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

Anyone who had actually been to the Falklands would not say they are 'hardly British'. The place is more British than London FFS, and fiercely proud of it too.

zaphod Posted on 14/6 18:35
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

It's hardly controversial to say the Thatcher Government's cock-ups contributed to the invasion. Lord Carrington resigned as Foreign Secretary precisely for that reason. He accepted responsibility.

As for the left-wing dream that Michael Foot would have won the next election but for the Falklands, all I can say is dream on. An SDP/Lib victory would have been more likely.

NickTheJew Posted on 14/6 18:37
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

"Ned, the Falklands aren't really British though are they? I mean it's just another chunk of land which the empire grabbed way back when. India, Australia etc.

Thatcher should have been strung up long ago for what she did."

Should we hand over Jersey to France as it is geographically closer to France than England? Guernsey too? How do you define what is British?

I would say that it is down to the people living on the Islands to decide, and they are predominantly British.

Nedkat Posted on 14/6 18:55
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

The Falkland population was asked if they wanted to be Argentinian, or if they wanted to remain British... The overwhelming answer was to remain part of the British Empire ... !! BY JOVE !!

Thunderbird3 Posted on 14/6 19:03
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

It's not only about opinions.

Its an age thing, anyone under about 35 yrs old won't appreciate why it was the right thing to do.
If we didn't re-take everything fought for in WW1 and WW11 would have counted for nothing.

Anyone who hasn't been can't appreciate how beautiful the islands are (my opinion i've been and i'd love to go back).

Saying every suicide can be attributed directly to the conflict is a bit harsh because many reasons for those suicides will be guess work.

Whether it was ever avoidable, I don't think, like a lot of political decisions, we will never know the truth.

I just believe it was the right thing , but thats my opinion, i played my part ( just after the conflict) in helping a small part of Britain prosper into what it has become.... strangely i did like the old ramshackled Falklands before the development.

trodbitch Posted on 14/6 19:07
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

Thunderbird, I am 31 an I believe it was the right thing to do. Don't be so .. er .. youngist!

Thunderbird3 Posted on 14/6 19:14
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

don't take that the wrong way, you would have been 6 and not had a scooby what was going on at the time ( with respect), obviously you have come to understand what went on and why.

It the 'hindsight' brigade that get on my tits.

Gillandi Posted on 14/6 19:20
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

Zaphod - Where would an SDP/Lib Dem government have taken the country, in your opinion? Can I assume you think the Falklands war was the right thing to go into, despite the illegality, because it allowed Maggie to go on and make the huge social changes that she did. Along with other reasons maybe. I'd be interested to know.


Revol - thanks for that mate, very interesting and it does all ring bells from what I once understood of the situation.

Without wanting to sound flippant in anyway, what should have happened instead of the Falklands War and where would we be today?

Or, to put it another way..

....Where the hell is The Commissar?

The_O_Bus Posted on 14/6 19:31
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

I havenít read all the posts in this thread, got as far as Specky/M Dundee, they described the islanders as British citizens. Well not in Maggies opinion 9 month before the war her party put to the house a bill denying them a British passport or citizenship. 6 months before she withdrew the last of our military presence in the area against the advice of the military and the opposition party in parliament. Under these circumstances the Argentineans took control of the falklands

1 she caused the war
2 she started the war ordering the sinking/murder of belgrano
3 she is directly responsible for all deaths in that conflict
4 sheís going strait to hell

NickTheJew Posted on 14/6 19:37
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

Once again removing a military presence is not and open invitation to an invasion.

zaphod Posted on 14/6 19:43
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

Gillandi, I have no idea what an SDP/Lib Government would have done. My point was that there would not have been a Labour Government with or without the Falklands. The social changes would have happened regardless of the Falklands War.

The Falklands War was justifiable from a British perspective, because the Argentines had no right to invade, even though British cock-ups had led them to the incorrect conclusion that there would be no come-back.

Gillandi Posted on 14/6 20:09
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

Zaphod - How would you have seen those social changes happening anyway, eventually? Do you think they'd have happened by now?

zaphod Posted on 14/6 20:15
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

Gillandi, they would have happened in the 1980s. They were already under way by 1982, with uneconomic industries going bust, tax changes etc.

Gillandi Posted on 14/6 20:23
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

Zap - So the SDP/LibDem pact would have swept the miners aside? Or would Maggie bounce back 4 years later to complete that particular programme which i'd have thought was crucial in the full implementaion of her political design.

zaphod Posted on 14/6 20:28
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

Everybody knew the power of the miners had to be broken. Thatcher just did it in the most brutal way, but whatever Government it was would have had to do it one way or another.

Of course Foot, Benn et al would have continued to kowtow, but they were unelectable.

Nedkat Posted on 14/6 20:29
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

Trod, your only 31 ?

What the fook happened ? Did you have a paper round in Beirut ?

Lurkalot Posted on 14/6 20:37
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

I don't really see the age argument, but I'm 46 and think it was completely the wrong course of action.

Sparky: You have absolutely no idea if I've been there or not. Either way, it makes no difference to anything.

Nedkat Posted on 14/6 20:38
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

Sir Lurkalot, you sir ... are dead wrong !! It was our duty to those islanders, to free them from the grip of the Junta !!

Lurkalot Posted on 14/6 20:55
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

In that case Uncle Ned, I suggest we agree to dissagree on the overall picture.

Yes, it liberated a small number of people .... but look the cost. Also, bare in mind that, had this conflict not happened, those islands would undoubtedly have been handed over long before now anyway (in one form or another).

That's why (to me) it was a complete waste of life and sufferring. People's lives were put on the block by a maniac female from Grantham for nothing more than political gain.

hughiep Posted on 14/6 20:58
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

I agree with ned it had to be done...one the islands had been invaded....but the person who ultimately put other peoples lives on the line was galtieri.....he thought we would not repond..but as you well know we did.

trodbitch Posted on 14/6 21:01
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

"Did you have a paper round in Beirut ?"

What's THAT supposed to mean?

I'm fooking depressed now Ned

Revol_Tees Posted on 14/6 21:03
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

It's entirely possible that Labour could have won in 1983 if not for the infighting, the SDP split, and the Falklands factor. Three big "ifs".

The Falklands conflict alone was not decisive in winning the 1983 election, but it was a significant. At that point Thatcher was losing support in her own party and Thatcherism as we know it was still a few years away. In the early years, her experimental monetarist solution to Britain's problems was causing more widespread misery than the so-called "Winter of Discontent" ever did: unemployment topped 3 million; small and medium-sized businesses began to fold; and even former Tory PM Edward Heath appeared on TV to denounce the immorality of a calculated policy of mass unemployment.

By 1981 Thatcher was almost universally hated. Hostility towards her government reached its apex at the 1981 Tory party conference in Blackpool, with many pundits predicting that she would be gone by Christmas. But she clung on, and the Falklands boosted her popularity, if not in the country then certainly in her party.

The other and far more important factor was the SDP split from the Labour Party. Post-election data showed that in pretty much every category of voter in which it was most popular - council tenants, public sector workers, private sector workers, unemployed, semi-skilled and unskilled - a big chunk of its votes had been taken away by the SDP. That's not to mention the groups it lost completely, like skilled labour. The Conservatives didn't romp home so much as Labour completely capitulated.

And, incidentally, there was no observable pattern of swings against the most radical left-wing candidates; some of the hardest swings were against the ultra-moderates. Millions of people, particularly in urban industrial areas, who voted willingly for the most radical Labour manifesto for decades were the same ones who turned away from Labour in droves only when Kinnock began to drag it right-wards later in the 1980s.

Nedkat Posted on 14/6 21:04
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

Aye, we all have our own opinions, mine tends to be moulded by 20 years in front of the mast. Great thread, BTW .. !!

Sorry Trods old chap .. ! I hope your not too offended. Your a beautiful specimen for a man your age !

NickTheJew Posted on 14/6 21:06
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

"That's why (to me) it was a complete waste of life and sufferring. People's lives were put on the block by a maniac female from Grantham for nothing more than political gain."


You keep saying this and it's very irritating, the government did not invade another countries land, that is what Argentina did, everytime you say this you make out like they are blameless when it is clear the loss of life was a direct result of the Argentinian invasion.

If as you say the islands would have been handed over by now, that surely puts more blame on the Argentinian government who were impatiant.

trodbitch Posted on 14/6 21:08
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

On the issue of whether it should have been done or not, the people of the Falklands would (rightly) expect to be protected. And the people serving in the forces would have (rightly) accepted it was their duty to protect them.

I don't think you are going to find one person who served then who thought it was *wrong* as surely when you are in the forces, you can't really allow politics to demotivate you? When it comes down to it, people had been occupied and we wanted to liberate them. You don't really have the luxury of analysing political motive or trying to undercover any sinister career-boosting bonuses when you are in either of those situations (occupied people or liberator).

MontagueLongfellow Posted on 14/6 21:20
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

The Iron Lady did us proud.

If we didnt draw the line there before long there'd of been foreign powers invading other dependencies and claiming them as their own.

Such as Wales and Scotland.

Perhaps she was a bit hasty after all now I think about it

Lurkalot Posted on 14/6 21:35
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

"You keep saying this and it's very irritating"

Oh dear, how sad.

The_O_Bus Posted on 14/6 21:58
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

The question was Should the Falklands War have happened?
No it happened because the government of the day failed in its duty to protect the islands. when you colonize land over 4 corners of the world you have to keep some sort of military presence
If we had pulled our large military presence in Hong Kong the Chinese would have taken over.
Spain would have done the same in Gibraltar
Just look back in history the Romans did not rule by consensus
The Thatcher gov gave the green light to the Argentineans. And could you really call it an invasion, they just walked in without knocking

NickTheJew Posted on 14/6 22:13
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

"Oh dear, how sad."

You're the one making out that the war was for political gain only and so those who died died for no reason at all, completely disrespecting them.

Lurkalot Posted on 14/6 22:20
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

Cheap shot Nick, very cheap shot.

The_O_Bus Posted on 14/6 22:28
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

NO Withdrawing military from the falklands was a dereliction of duty by the Gov, it was not malicious just inept, but it did win her the next election.

BoroGrecian Posted on 14/6 22:32
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

hmmm had an interesting discussion in work about this today...sod it ok it was an arguement with my boss. he took exception to the statement that the reasons for going to war were not the ones Thatcher said them to be. He took this as me saying that we shouldn't have defended the island. On further discussion and a bit of political historical fact he did actually see where I was coming from. Going to war to defend territory is all very well, but that isn't the real reason why Thatcher decided to send hundreds of troops to their deaths.

Thatcher herself was deeply unpopular at the time and without the argentine invasion would have easily lost the next general election. Pinocet in Chile was looking dodgy position wise, while Galterari was looking stronger all the time. Thatcher and Pinocet being best buddies needed to prop up their regimes so found the excuse of the Falklands when Argentina decided to march in. Two regimes propped up, Galterari ousted and made to look the eejit and a few million sheep and penguins and a few hundred people flying the Union Flag once more.

I have no doubt the people of the Falklands wanted to remain part of the UK, what I have always had a problem with is the real reasons why we went to war. Would the same moves have been made if regimes didn't need a good war to stay in power and make people look good? or would the government of the time just thrown the island to the wall and told them to deal with it themselves.

it's funny how politicans start these wars and then send someone else to do the fighting. shows how brave they are dosen't it!

borobadge Posted on 14/6 22:37
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

no.

Northsea_Kitten Posted on 14/6 22:42
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

There is a load of oil there but its to political to get it out. The argies are skint why do they want the foookin place other than for oil revanue.

joseph99 Posted on 14/6 23:01
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

No one could answer my question above: would we have retaliated with so much bravado and confidence had the power that invaded our sovereign land been a serious power, such as China taking over HK. In other words, not just a bunch of TA boys using antiquated weoponary.

red_rebel2 Posted on 14/6 23:19
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

And, Joseph, if the reason for the task force was that it was neccessary for national pride, political credibility and the need to restore sovereignty when a foreign power invaded crown territory and overthrew the legally constituted power to impose its own rule .... then why did the Thatcher government not even raise a peep when the US Marines invaded Grenada?

Gaizka_Mendieta_14 Posted on 14/6 23:23
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

i agree with what everyone has said.

Revol_Tees Posted on 14/6 23:27
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

r_r: just out of interest, what was the Militant's line on the Falklands conflict? I read a criticism in 'Marxism Today' that Militant was "strangely silent" (or something like that) on the whole thing. I've heard that they were a tad reluctant to condemn the adventure except to call for that catch-all solution of a general strike in both Britain and Argentina. What were the Taaffes and Grants of this world saying at the time? And was the sniping by the SWP and Communist Party valid?

gaz4leigh Posted on 23/6 0:07
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

this is for the attention of 'KEELO'
hi there, i seen your chat and had to reply. Ernie Vickers was my grandad, i dont really know much about him as he died when i was 6 months old. what i do know is that he was a well liked and well know chap. i would love to hear back from you with some stories about him. i'm ernie's youngest son, Michael's daughter, hope to hear from you soon x

--- Post edited by gaz4leigh on 23/6 0:15 ---

joseph99 Posted on 23/6 0:48
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

Gaz: my old man was in the merchant navy in the 60's and he also knew Ernie Vickers. I remember him coming in from the Wee Willie in tears after he had heard about his old mate going down on the Atlantic Conveyor. My Dad never shed tears. I'll ask him for his memories over the weekend and will report back.

rcmfc Posted on 23/6 1:00
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

I've got nothing but love, respect and admiration for those working class lads who died for a evil bitch who tried her very best to close the towns and cities they came from.

br14 Posted on 23/6 1:58
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

Wasn't it all about South Atlantic oil - Thatchers government was rumoured (according to the FT) to have pulled out of negotiations with the Argentinians two weeks before the invasion.

The Argentinian Generals were hardly nice guys. Further right than Thatcher and more Argentinians were "disappeared" by their junta than were killed during the conflict.

The_Commisar Posted on 23/6 7:44
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

I missed out on this thread
bugger


I'm going to Cherry Pick a few points.
J99

WE were within days of losing that war.
We were running out of ships and munitions.
The loss of the Atlantic Conveyor meant that the heavy lift helicopters on it were also lost. That added weeks to the ground campaign.

The Argentine troops, whilst conscripts were well motivated and seldom collapsed. They were beaten though.

There was no way that nuclear weapons would have ever been used.

Regardless of red green or yellow lights. Argentina had no "right" to invade. A more sensible regime would have spotted an opportunity to negotiate and take the "problem " off the UK's hands. Instead for what ever reason they invaded.

The Belgrano (which out of interest was at Pearl Harbour) was a legitimate target. It was sailing away from the islands at the point it was sunk. News flash - ships can change direction. It's armament would have been ideal for breaking up a landing.

The war was pointless and needless.

But we all have 20 20 hindsight, and none of us were in the same position as the various leaders. So anything we say is pure speculation.

Marianillo Posted on 2/7 10:29
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

"Get ready for a second invasion, believe me it's coming, the argies are going to try take advantage of our over stretched forces!"

Well, now that's complete nonsense.
As a result of the Malvinas war, the military regiome (who had massaclresd about 30,000 left wing opositors over the previous 6 years), got into a crisis that let to a democratic regime at the en of 1983. Just one year after the war.
After several military rebelions between 1987 and 1988, the military budget was increasingly cut over the years.
In december 1990 ther was a bloody military coup intent (due to the budget cuts) that ended up on a defeat of the rebels. This not only sent to jail to many high officials, but also led to the end of the compulsory military regime in 1992.
Then the economic crisis hit Argentina at the mid 90s, mostly due to the high levels of corruption of the government that ruled the country from 1989 to 1999. The algid point of this crisis arrived in dec 2001, when the president Fernando de la Rua was forced to resign. Elections were called in 2003 and the current president was elected, Nestor Kirchner.
Many reforms have been made in the country's economy and justice since then. Lots of purges on the security forces, armed forces, politic power and justice.
In 2005 Argentina's military expenses was something like 90 millon US dollars, While Chile's aond Peru's was ober 2 billion US dollars.
I think they are the smartest ones on the region, since they cut grease from their most problematic and useless part of their society (given their geographical and economical situation): their armed forces.
So don't ecpect Argentina to be able or to be willing to repeat 1982's experience. Saying so is just a buch of paranoid nonsense.

--- Post edited by Marianillo on 2/7 10:36 ---

Marianillo Posted on 2/7 10:45
re: Should the Falklands War have happened?

About the nuclear treat, absolutely nobody believes that in Argentina. This is known to be a lame excuse on part of the military junta to justify the shameful actitude of many oficials, that had killed inocent people during the political represion from 1976 on. When the time came to face another army they showed their complete incompetence, leading Argentina army to it's first military defeat in history. The only exception was the argentinian airforce that showed a braveness that offset in part the obsolete equipment that they had.
The armi and marine guys showed really to be just a gang of cowards, only good to torture and kill indefense poepole.
After the war there was a trial in which the responsibles of the war were taken to justice and convicted.
Then the corrupt regime of the 90s sat them free with a wide amnesty decrete. Really shameful.
Best regards.

--- Post edited by Marianillo on 2/7 10:47 ---