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scoea Posted on 21/10 14:47
Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

OK, I know that two of them are injured but as far as I know, neither are too far away from a first team return.

For me, the way out of this is to get some agression and steel into the side. We are currently weak. We look pretty but aren't aggressive enough.

Stick them in when they are fit and start fighting to win games.

onthemap Posted on 21/10 14:53
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

Agree with that apart from Cattermole. In his position pure agression will not be enough.

heaton_mersey_boro Posted on 21/10 14:54
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

I thought Cattermole and Huth had already been written off as being not good enough?


Senor_Chester Posted on 21/10 14:55
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

Huth, as a replacement for who? And I can't see how Cattermole would improve things. Clutching at straws with this I reckon.

backofthenet_ascl Posted on 21/10 14:56
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

Scoea - I agree (apart from Huth)

I'd have Woody and Pogi, drop Boateng to the bench (although I think he and Catt's will both play at Man U next week)

I'd also give Tuncay a crack up front instead of out wide.

joseph99 Posted on 21/10 14:58
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

The one key player missing is Arca. Guile is always better than guts.

scoea Posted on 21/10 15:00
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

I'd be tempted by 3-5-2 actually.

Huth Woody Pogo

O'Neil Catts Rocky Boat/Arca Downing

Aliadiere/Tuncay Mido

Senor - anything that anyone suggests you criticise so your response doesn't surprise me.

Senor_Chester Posted on 21/10 15:03
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

I've agreed with a couple of people today. And if you want to talk posting trends then I'm not anywhere near as consistent as the line you seem to follow blindly.

scoea Posted on 21/10 15:04
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

Oh really? Care to back that up with any evidence? No, didn't think so. Your perception of wht I post is not the same as what I actually post.

heaton_mersey_boro Posted on 21/10 15:05
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

3-5-2?

No way.

We will end up sitting so far back it will be a 5-3-2 with Boateng sitting in front of the back 5.

Chances of actually creating chances = slim.

Recipe for complete disaster.

scoea Posted on 21/10 15:08
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

Even with Downing and O'Neil on each side?

Senor_Chester Posted on 21/10 15:09
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

"Care to back that up with any evidence? No, didn't think so."

Yes, I will do actually. You would defend anything the club or Gibson says and rarely question anything from them, and then shoot anyone down as morons who would dare.

The time when you defended the club when people turned up for the Northampton game 45 minutes before kick off and had to go home because they couldn't get in for half time, and you said it was their fault is my evidence.

heaton_mersey_boro Posted on 21/10 15:11
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

Yes.

They are not genuine wing-backs, so would be playing out of position.

I see where you are coming from, but that formation, with the squad we have, fills me with absolutely no confidnce whatsoever.

fattyfoggon Posted on 21/10 15:12
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

what's actually wrong with Huth atm is heever going to be fit again sonds like he is well fooked !

scoea Posted on 21/10 15:19
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

That shows my opinion on one particular issue, which I backed up. That does not, I'm afraid, show a consistent line that I follow blindly.

For example, I have not been happy with the appointment of the last two Boro managers but then that doesn't fit into your preconception.

scoea Posted on 21/10 15:21
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

Heaton - we are not defending properly as things stand and we aren't scoring goals. Can this formation really cause a downward turn??

I know where you're coming from and would usually agree that 3-5-2 should be avoided. However, desperate times and all that.

heaton_mersey_boro Posted on 21/10 15:28
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

Like I said my biggest concern would be that we would end up sitting back too deep (like we do now in a 4-4-2), and would just be asking for teams to come at us.

And at the moment, we are conceding goals for fun. The theory about having 5 in the midfield, changing to 5 at the back when necessary is a good one but I feel we have'nt the personel for this system to be effective.

Somehow we have to get 11 players out there who fit into a 4-4-2, all playing well, scoring goals and not conceding any.

I think I've over-simplified that last bit though

Senor_Chester Posted on 21/10 15:28
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

Whatever you say. Don't get me started on the way that you suggestively imply your some sort of insider.

Mahatma_Gandhi Posted on 21/10 15:42
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

Downing and O'Neill as wing backs? Jesus...5-3-2 relies so much on the wing backs that they have to be proper wing backs like Ziege or Cafu.
Downing can't tackle and he would be crossing from too deep so it's terrible for him. O'Neill could do it but he lacks pace which is vital for a good wing back.

Cattermole's not good enough.

Pogi is better at centre back but we need him at left back as Taylor's having a poor time, just get him to sit deep and go to a back 3 when Young is bombing down the wing.

..............Mido.....Ali


Downing.......Arca....Rocky...O'Neill


Pogi........huth....Woodgate....Young....

............anybodybutSchwarzer

in Jan we need a striker and a right winger or central midfielder.

Mat_Evans Posted on 21/10 16:10
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

i'd actually quit like to see pogatetz given another run at full back. When we wrote him off he was mad dog, the lad who'd fling him into anything without a second thought. he's now matured and is a different/better player to then.

you write off cattermole as "not good enough" centre midfield is a difficult position to play, there's no room for error. He has show at 18/19, that he has all the right attributes to potentially become a very good player. I think a lot of people seem to write him off because he's overly aggressive, there's a lot more to his game than that and it's definately a good attribute to have than not too.

scoea Posted on 21/10 16:10
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

Ah, the weapon of last resort when losing a debate, shift the emphasis entirely. For the record I am not an 'insider' and nor have I claimed otherwise. What I have said is that I know someone that has access to some information that others don't and I share it in good faith, to much derision.

Now, it is fact Senor Chester that I have a positive outlook on life and, by implication, Boro. If you can tell me what's wrong with that I would like to read it. What that doesn't mean though is that I 'blindly' go along with whatever happens at MFC. If you read my posts properly instead of simply reverting back to your preconception you would see that.

I actualy think Downing does a pretty good job defensively and his crosses are good enough that he doesn't need to get to the byline to deliver. I would have no problem with him as a wing back. I understand the criticism of the formation though because I generally don't like it.

I stand by what I said in the first place though - we need some aggression in the team, some spirit and some fist shaking. Cattermole, Pogo and Huth may not be pretty to watch but they would deliver and hopefully alow our footballers to play.

scoea Posted on 21/10 16:13
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

I really rate Cattermole, Mat. I think people easily forget how old he is. Pogatetz playing bady at left back is also a myth, largely because he ousted Franck from his place (even though it was deserved).

Mat_Evans Posted on 21/10 16:49
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

sorry sco, that was mainly aimed at gandhi.

How did ya get on this morning cap?

joseph99 Posted on 21/10 17:11
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

Pogatez must have been deluded when he said that he was largley disappointed with his form in his first season.

scoea Posted on 21/10 17:31
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

He says he can improve on last season's form too. Does that mean he must have played badly last season?

He is a perfectionist and he probably was disappointed. That does not mean he played badly.

TeessideCleveland Posted on 21/10 17:35
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

I don't think Huth is nearly ready to return

scoea Posted on 21/10 17:38
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

He is training again I think.

Mahatma_Gandhi Posted on 21/10 17:43
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

Won 12-2 mate...I had a 15 min cameo and tried an audacious overhead volley which brought a wonder save from their keeper.

scuzzmonster Posted on 21/10 17:43
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

Don't see much wrong with a Young - Woody - Pogga - Taylor flat back four meself. Downing - Arca - Cattermole - O'Neil midfield. Mido - Aliadiere up front at home. Tuncay for Aliadere away, playing in the hole

scoea Posted on 21/10 19:13
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

When you put it like that I probably agree.

bandito Posted on 21/10 19:16
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

agree with your first post entirely. We lack aggression. Time for some of the catts tears!

joseph99 Posted on 21/10 19:41
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

He played v.badly in his first season - that is why he was such a revelation in his second season.

If you think he played well - fair enough you can share whatever opinion you like - but all the evidence and sound bites from the club and fans suggest that all and sundry were amazed by his change in form. If he was that good why did we buy Huth.

--- Post edited by joseph99 on 21/10 19:42 ---

Boro_Gadgie Posted on 21/10 19:44
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

As far as I know, Huth is still some way from being fit.

We need Pogi for Riggott, Arca, plus at least one more forward in January. We could also do with cover at left back for Taylor.

Sell either Huth or Riggott, Davies and get rid of Dong Gook.

scoea Posted on 21/10 21:08
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

So he was a revelation because he was so poor in his first season?? How does that work then?

I'd like to see all these soundbites that show everyone was surprised by his second season form. McClaren bought him as a centre half and so it is no surprise at all that he played better there. That does not detract from the fact that he did a decent job at eft back and indeed outshone Franck.

Finally, I am not sure what on earth Huth has got to do with Pogatetz. We didn't have Woody when we first agreed to sign Huth and as I recall, we had lost a certain Mr Southgate.

joseph99 Posted on 21/10 21:47
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

An interesting alterative opinion Scoea. He was a revelation because he was so poor in his first season and was earmarked as a squad player under Gareth. We all know this to be the case.

Boromart Posted on 22/10 10:27
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

I don't like 3-5-2 myself, I don't think a system change will change our fortune. What we need to do is actually get the basics right.....Aliadiere will be back next week...

......Arnie
Young..Riggs...Woody...Taylor
O'Neil..Catt..Rochy...Downing
....ALIADIERE...Mido


Pogo will probably be back the week after that....
......Arnie
Young...Woody...POGO...Taylor
O'Neil..Catt..Rochy...Downing
....ALIADIERE...Mido

...and then Arca 2 weeks after that.....
......Arnie
Young..Woody...POGO...Taylor
O'Neil..Rochy...ARCA...Downing
....ALIADIERE...Mido

IF we get the spine of the team strengthened then we will improve.

As far as the January Sales:-
GK - I have stuck up for Schwarzer in the past, but have now seen the light, his form isn't great, his reactions are slowing down. A new keeper should be on the shopping list. If we don't get one in January we will need a top class keeeper next summer.

DEF - I agree that we need competition for Taylor, someone with experience and someone who is defensively sound, rather than an attacking fullback like Taylor. Nothing against the lad, he ain't playing awful, we just need an experienced head right now. Hopefully Huths injuries will heal up at last and we can start to see what kind of plyaer he is.

Midfield - I think we are short on quality. Arca, Downing and O'Neil are all very good quality. Rochemback is world class on a good day, but poor on a bad day (often it depends which other players are int he side). Catts is promising, and thats about it. Boat is MIA, Tuncay has shown nothing and Shawky is still adjusting.

Up front - Mido is class, and now that he is getting some fitness we will see how good he is. Aliadiere is promising but needs a goal. Tuncay similar sitatuions to Ali. DGL - show him the door. We need another proven goalscorer.

With a bit of bargain hunting, maybe a loan deal, and one big striker signing we could avoid having a complete write-off of a season.

scoea Posted on 22/10 12:18
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

I'd love to know where you got that from joseph.

flyermetothemoon Posted on 22/10 13:47
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

"Rocky can be world class on his day"

Never laughed so much in ages.

Which day would this be?

joseph99 Posted on 22/10 14:04
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

So the rationale used when buying Woody was: well we are Boro, super rich let's buy Woodgate as cover for Huth and Pog?? Arca was bought that season as a first choice LB until Taylor establsihed himself.

sasboro Posted on 22/10 14:09
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

huth money was wasted. when we signed him he was injured still. we took a gamble and it didnt pay off. that 6 million would have been better spent elswhere. maybe on a right midfielder or a striker.

Mat_Evans Posted on 22/10 14:19
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

At the time though sas we were desperately short on centre halfs, huth was a very good buy at the time. Yes he was injured, but we know he still has plenty of potential. He's still very young for a defender and could still turn out a great player in the long run.

You don't pass up the opportunity of a world class defender like woodgate, deals like that don't happen very often. we'd already bought huth and that partnership could well be a good un to come.

ste_north_stand Posted on 22/10 14:21
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

With all the people on this board with "contacts" does anyone actually know what the fook is wrong with HUTH?

sasboro Posted on 22/10 14:22
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

but he was injured so wasnt a very good buy at the time. I thought it was a reckless signing and panic. should have done it so we agreed to buy him in january once he had proved his fitness and over his injury. You shouldn't be buying players with a bit of a dodgy injury

simon1586 Posted on 22/10 14:24
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

Pogatetz was dreadful as a full back.Hard tackling Downing as a wing back? Sicknote Huth, when is he due back and how long will he back for? A most ridiculous purchase who was injured when we bought him. If we really wanted him why didn't we take him on loan?

Mat_Evans Posted on 22/10 14:30
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

You don't get many quality premiership proven centre halfs on the market either, i think sometimes you have to take a risk. I don't think 6 mil is a massive risk on a proven premiership player, he's been unlucky with injuries and could still well be a major player in the next 10 years.

sasboro Posted on 22/10 14:34
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

but he was injured when we signed him so not much use, still injured now. 6m is a lot to spend on a player if they injured when he is signed.
I cant remember fully at the time but opinion i got was something came up in the medical and things dragged on then we rushed in and pushed through the signing.

kermit_the_smog Posted on 22/10 14:37
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

Boro need to start getting in teams faces and stop trying to act mr nice guy. People always go on about the pace of the premiership and about how the English teams are so good at getting at teams and putting the fear of god into them and playing football at 500mph.

That's so far from Boro its untrue. When do Boro EVER play like this? We look disorganised, completely drained of any motivation/confidence, we're going into games beaten before we even step foot on the pitch at the moment.

Mat_Evans Posted on 22/10 14:38
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

i hear what you're saying, but i would've took the risk. You never know who might have nipped in, if we'd left it till january. I seem to remember the jawdee's sniffing around.

simon1586 Posted on 22/10 14:42
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

The Geordies would have been welcome. The money would have been better spent strengthening another part of the team.

--- Post edited by simon1586 on 22/10 14:42 ---

Boromart Posted on 22/10 15:07
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

in retrospect the Huth purchase was a complete bodge. Even at the time it was highly questionable.

But thats in the past and has been done to death, and looking forward a fit Huth would be an extremely valuable squad member, possibly even a first team starter. Huth or Riggott you chose!

He will add controlled agression, height, pace (he is quicker than you think), strength to the defence. He is also very good with the ball at his feet, he can pass and dribble better than any CB at the club.

--- Post edited by Boromart on 22/10 15:08 ---

heaton_mersey_boro Posted on 22/10 15:12
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

Aye, and who can remember last season when he put Andy Johnson into the advertising boards with a "well timed" shoulder charge?


simon1586 Posted on 22/10 15:14
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

I also remember him getting tortured by Dickov away at Man City.

kermit_the_smog Posted on 22/10 15:16
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

Anyone who remembers him putting Andy Johnson through the advertising boards knows what we're missing.

He's a quality no nonsense defender who won't give strikers the time of day.

He's basically David Wheater but a few years and a few protein shakes later. If we can get him fit he'll be a quality asset to our club.

I know Poga was gash at an attacking left back, but for some away games where we need our players to dig in and prove hard to beat i'd have him there purely to defend and leave the attackers to attack and have Huth in the middle. Would give us some attacking threat too from set peices.

Boromart Posted on 22/10 15:19
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

simon1586, and I once, no twice saw Sol Campbell in his prime tortured by Hamilton Ricard, whats your point?

....and Riggott seems to get tortured by everyone these days, so Huth couldn't do any worse.

--- Post edited by Boromart on 22/10 15:20 ---

simon1586 Posted on 22/10 15:22
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

My point is that aside from the now famous shoulder charge Huth has not shown anything in his time at the club. How often did you see him play as a defender in his time at Chelsea?

sasboro Posted on 22/10 15:25
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

whats up with wheater?

Boromart Posted on 22/10 15:26
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

Simon, I don't agree with that he was our best player away to Watford, he wasn't troubled by them whatsoever and in the second half took the responsibility on himself to come out with the ball and move into midfield to make the extra man. He distributed the ball well, and showed a positive attitude to being a defender.

Away to Spuds, he also had a storming game, MOTM if I remember correctly.

Boromart Posted on 22/10 15:28
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

Wheater was removed from the firing line to add more experience to the side.......although I (reluctantly) agreed with the decision at the time, I now feel that Riggs hasn't stepped up to the plate and used that experience. Get Wheater back in!

simon1586 Posted on 22/10 15:29
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

So that's twice then.

Boromart Posted on 22/10 15:41
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

I saw him a few times for Chelsea and he was usually impressive. I'm not sure what your trying to prove, do you think Huth is a) unproven or b) rubbish?

sasboro Posted on 22/10 15:43
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

i rate wheater above huth. Huth had the comfort of playing with world class players. Wheater was chucked in and did nothing wrong. i remember huth making a cock up for boro last season when he played one of his first games

Boromart Posted on 22/10 15:46
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

thats a hell of a sweeping statement sas, not like you to come up with a contraversial viewpoint

Pogo->Woody->Huth->Wheater->Bates->Riggs thats my order

sasboro Posted on 22/10 15:52
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

huth should be behind wheater on merit. Wheater done nothing wrong to be behind huth

but i do understand southgate wil have to pick huth as first choice to justify signing him for 6m

and same for riggot shoul dbe behind wheater

--- Post edited by sasboro on 22/10 15:55 ---

Boromart Posted on 22/10 16:05
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

In the same way that Wheater hasn't made mistakes, Huth hasn't either. therefore the seniority of Huth should be first IMO.

Riggs has made lots of mistakes and I've been saying we should get shot for over a year, he is a liability.

The first goal was inevitable on Saturday as soon as Riggott had to make a decision - advance towards Lampard to close him down OR track Drogba, the man he was marking. Yet again he made the wrong choice.

dibzzz Posted on 22/10 16:06
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

Yep, I agree, the time is now for the fight.

scoea Posted on 23/10 10:48
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

Some of these comments make me laugh.

We agreed to sign Huth and then Woody became available. We committed to one permanaently and one on loan. A very good approach given that it was not certain that Woody would stay. Thereafter we decided to sign Woody permanently - AFTER Pogo's good form. The signing of Huth therefore had precisely nothing to do with Pogo.

Huth passed his medical and was not 'injured' when we signed him. He has been unlucky since with injury but underneath it all has shown himself to be a very good player, both at Chelsea and here.

Finally, Wheater, as well as he did, was making errors and as an inexperienced player he was brought out of the firing line, quite correctly.

sasboro Posted on 23/10 10:57
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

Huth failed a medical in the summer(he missed the world cup), so had an operation. WE signed him not long after when he hadn't really had time to fully recover and wasnt really fit and hadnt proved he was over it beacuse newcastle were in for him so we wanted too we rushed in. In normal circumstances we would have walked away but we were desperate for a centre back. Speculation was that we were in for woodgate about the same time. In hindsight we should have said to chelsea we wil sign him in january once he has proved his fitness

And if i remember right we were going to take him onloan after his operation but decided to go for the permanent move when newcastle got involved

--- Post edited by sasboro on 23/10 11:08 ---

zaphod Posted on 23/10 11:18
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

We haven't done too great since Wheater was taken out of the "firing line", have we? Experience hasn't exactly paid off, has it?

onthemap Posted on 23/10 11:24
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

Agree that the lack of agression needs addressing, but what about the goal drought.
When the rose tinted glasses brigade are settling for a relegation scrap in October there's something seriously wrong.

sasboro Posted on 23/10 11:27
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

people should read vickers blog, apparently this is our worst start over 10 games in the premier league

Boromart Posted on 23/10 11:28
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

I agree completely Zaphod. I think he was taken out to protect him rather than to improve the team. Its not good for a defender to get used to letting 2 goals in a week. Riggott is bobbins and it was doubtful he would improve the side.

I've been saying for 2 years Riggott is pap, and have been constantly slaughtered by many on here for that view.....now no one seems to disagree, I think he will be gone in January.

--- Post edited by Boromart on 23/10 11:31 ---

kermit_the_smog Posted on 23/10 11:32
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

Riggott is too lightweight, he's prone to errors and just isn't cut out for this level.

I think it completely summed him up with him scoring an OG 7mins back into the side.

Wheater may not have the experience but he has the strength and arial ability which is what's needed alongside Woody, he's the brains we need someone with a bit of power alongside him.

sasboro Posted on 23/10 11:33
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

dont know why wheater needs protecting. he is 21 in feb and was playing well. its not like he was 17. taylor is only 6 months older than him and he was a regular last season

Boromart Posted on 23/10 11:58
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

Sas it's a bit differant for a CB though. Other than Micah Richards, Wheater is the youngest CB in the country. It is rare that a CB holds down a first team shirt before he is 23, certainly for the last 3 or 4 seasons. If you don't believe me go and check on the interweb.

I guess this is due to :-
a) the physical demands of being a CB. You have to be able to physcially hold your own against 6 foot 3 battering rams like Drogba, Viduka and Kenwyne Jones, or little battering rams like Rooney.
b) it is along with GK the area where weaknesses are most exposed for all to see. You cockup and it's a goal!
c) You need 90 mins of concentration, a midfielder or forward or even fullback can switch off for a few seconds without it leading to a goal.

It takes a certain mental and physical maturity to play CB in a top flight league.




--- Post edited by Boromart on 23/10 12:11 ---

sasboro Posted on 23/10 12:28
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

with no terry playing we could have done with wheaters strength in the air at set pieces.
thing is wheater was playing no worse than riggot is or woodgate. But young local lads are usually the first to be 'rested' when big name signings coming back

--- Post edited by sasboro on 23/10 12:29 ---

onthemap Posted on 23/10 12:42
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

Boromart thats all evry convincing and all that but in reality there are only two reasons a fit player of any age in any position is dropped.
a - He's not good enough
b - The manager thinks he's not good enough

I've gone for b.

dave_catching Posted on 23/10 12:45
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

So Wheater was 'correctly' dropped and replaced by a guy who scored a circus-style o.g. within 10 minutes of his recall to the side.

A guy who was a cornerstone of the 4th worst defence in the league when he was a regular 2 years ago, and who should've been sold to a Championship side many moons ago.

Boromart Posted on 23/10 13:04
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

you missed option c - rest a young player to make sure his confidence isn't knocked by being part of a defence that regularly conceeds.

or option d - young player starts to look a little mentally or physically jaded

or even e - young player with potential lacks the consistancy in decision making at this age. Did David Moyes think Rooney wasn't good enough when he benched him consistantly, or Fergie when he benched Ronaldo during his first season?

I would say it's a combination of c, d and e.

I can understand why Riggs was brought back (that isn't to say I completely agree with it), we were leaking too many goals and Southgate hoped that Riggs extra experience might just scrape us through until Poga is back. It didn't work.

I would bring the now refreshed Wheater back.

He played every minute of the first 10 games including the cups. Thats a lot of footy for him. Physically he is probably up to it, but maybe not mentally. We saw how Taylors form deteriated last season due to playing too much.

But I would bring Wheats back now and sas what on earth are you on about -- "But young local lads are usually the first to be 'rested' when big name signings coming back" -- riggs was not only NOT a big name signing, or even one of Southgates signings, but more importantly he had to sit on the bench for 2 game while Wheater stayed in the side. The facts do not back up your view of the situation.




--- Post edited by Boromart on 23/10 13:15 ---

sasboro Posted on 23/10 13:07
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

"you missed option c - rest a young player to make sure his long term future isn't hampered by being part of a defence that regularly conceeds."

like taylor?

Boromart Posted on 23/10 13:16
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

we haven't got the choice to rest Taylor, there are no other viable options. That goes back to having a small squad for sure, we should have signed an experienced LB for competition.

But if you had read all my post you would see that I agree it's exactly like Taylor, so I'm not sure why your asking the question.

....but then if we did have an experienced LB and brought him in to rest Taylor you would be crying about how 'local lads are laways the first to be ditched to make way for big name signings' wouldn't you

--- Post edited by Boromart on 23/10 13:21 ---

scoea Posted on 23/10 13:38
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

The difference with Taylor Sas is that there is no senior alternative. We would have to put Hines in. Agree 100% with Boromart.

It is absolutely incorrect to argue that a young player is only taken out of the team if the manager doesn't think he is good enough. Utter nonsense.

onthemap Posted on 23/10 13:39
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

Sorry Boromart but if Southgate thought he was good enough (whatever his age) he'd still be playing.
That doesn't mean I agree with him being dropped by the way.

sasboro Posted on 23/10 13:43
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

ah, being selective again.

thing is taylor was a regular last season when he was same age that wheater is now. Southgate decided he didnt need another left back as taylor was playing fine. No talk of he needs a rest and taken out of the firing line. He has played 100 times and is just turned 21.

Pity wheater isnt treated the same but southgate has to pick the big name centre backs ahead of him. Once huth is fit he will get a run in the team because southgate will have to justify the 6m. Wheater has done nothing more wrong than woodgate and riggot have. Like i said he is our best asset in the air at set pieces. That would have been useful against chelsea. And one of a our few assets the team has at the minute

scoea Posted on 23/10 13:51
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

So not recognising that Southgate bought Arca as a left back is not being selective Sas??

OK then.

scoea Posted on 23/10 13:52
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

By the way, Taylor COULD do with a spell out of the side.

joseph99 Posted on 23/10 13:55
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

"Thereafter we decided to sign Woody permanently - AFTER Pogo's good form. The signing of Huth therefore had precisely nothing to do with Pogo."

It's pleasing that you agree that his "good form" was ephemeral and followed not so good form in the previous season. I agree he had good form last season at CB, but in the previous season his only decent games where when he played central.

sasboro Posted on 23/10 13:56
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

no, arca was bought as a left midfielder.

how many times has he played left back for boro?

--- Post edited by sasboro on 23/10 13:57 ---

Boromart Posted on 23/10 13:58
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

"ah, being selective again." - In what way? please enlighten me....you probably wont though you make a habit of making flippant comments then refusing to back them up.

"thing is taylor was a regular last season when he was same age that wheater is now. Southgate decided he didnt need another left back as taylor was playing fine. No talk of he needs a rest and taken out of the firing line. He has played 100 times and is just turned 21. "
-- but like I said CBs are not physically up to it at 21, FBs are. In fact CBs are often introduced to the first team at FB because it is easier....Micah Richards, Matty Bates and Andrew Davies are good examples of this. It is incorrect to say that Southgate didn't think we needed an experienced LB, he took Pistone on trial for that very reason.

"Pity wheater isnt treated the same but southgate has to pick the big name centre backs ahead of him. Once huth is fit he will get a run in the team because southgate will have to justify the 6m."
.....and now we get to the crux of your issue, you have a problem with big fee players having a devine right to play. Even though that isn't currently the case, and when riggott came back to fitness he DIDN'T walk straight back in.

To be completely subective Huth hasn't done anything wrong either in his few appearances, so how do you work out who should play? What about Pogo, should Wheater make way for Pogo he hasn't done anything wrong either so shoudl he walk straight back in? answer that one honestly!

"Wheater has done nothing more wrong than woodgate and riggot have."
I agree, Riggs has been poo, Woody has been below his normal standards...but we know he can play much better.

sasboro Posted on 23/10 14:00
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

boromart, so you agree that southgate isnt playing his strongest team as he is picking riggot ahead of wheater who is a better player?

managers do favour their big signings. thats how it works. why spent millions on players if they never play? if they dont play their big signings then chairman thinks he has wasted the money..

scoea Posted on 23/10 14:01
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

You should be a lawyer with that misinterpretation joseph. I have already said he was better in his second season. I also said that he did not, by any means, play badly in his first.

Sas, again that is simply untrue. He played his debut at left back and Southgate said this when signing him:

"I want my full-backs to push forward this season. Julio can do that."

Boromart Posted on 23/10 14:01
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

"no, arca was bought as a left midfielder." -- behave yourself. You are so knee deep in talking bollox that it gets more and more ludicrous all the time. Franky was sold and Arca was bought within days of each other. Arca started the season when we had a fully fit squad at LB -- I think that tells you everything you need to know.

Southgate stumbled on Arca the top class midfielder much in the same way that Smac stumbled on Zenden the goalscoring midfielder, by accident not design.

--- Post edited by Boromart on 23/10 14:03 ---

Boromart Posted on 23/10 14:02
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

"managers do favour their big signings. thats how it works. why spent millions on players if they never play?" -- what has that got to do with Wheater being rested for Riggott?

scoea Posted on 23/10 14:03
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

That is just what Sas does. He talks so much rubbish that you end up going round in circles.

joseph99 Posted on 23/10 14:03
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

Scoea: looks like we agree - just the degrees of freedom where there's a disconnect!

sasboro Posted on 23/10 14:04
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

hangon, so one minute you say no cover for taylor at left back even though we signed arca to play left back?

boromart, so do you agree southgate isnt playing his strongest defence at the moment?

"That is just what Sas does. He talks so much rubbish that you end up going round in circles."

haha! yeah coming from scoea himself. the person who said signing viduka will mean we concede less goals
--- Post edited by sasboro on 23/10 14:05 ---

--- Post edited by sasboro on 23/10 14:06 ---

scoea Posted on 23/10 14:07
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

Good god Sas, at least make an effort to understand.

Arca was bought as a left back, the idea being that Taylor would be cover. Arca gets injured in his first game and Taylor comes in and does well thereby keeping his place. This goes against your idea that a manager will drop youngsters in favour of their big signings.

Arca then has to wait to get back in the team, presumably when Taylor suffers an inevitable dip in form.

Arca by accident is played in midfield and makes himself undroppable in that position.

We then end up where we are now - Taylor in the team with no real cover except Arca and Pogo, neither of whom are currently available and neither of whom you would want to remove from their best position.

I love the way you keep bringing that up Sas (and misquoting me) because it shows your complete lack of understanding of the game. What I (and others) were trying to persuade you of was that signing Viduka, a player that could hold the ball up, will take pressure off our defence, allow them to regroup and get organised and thereby help them concede less goals. It isn't a difficult theory to grasp and is one that I absolutely stand by. If you can argue against it then I would welcome that particular discussion being revisited.

--- Post edited by scoea on 23/10 14:09 ---

Boromart Posted on 23/10 14:08
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

Personally I felt that although Wheater wasn't making blatent mistakes, but he had stopped being aggressive. He wasn't really challanging for balls with any aggression not like his earlier games. I think he was frightened to make any mistakes, so basically just stood off people a little too much.

So resting him and allowing him to just catch his breath and clear his head before coming back into the side wasn't a bad thing for him personally.

the fact that Riggott had to wait 3 games before dislodging him proves that Southgate believes in Wheater long term.

sasboro Posted on 23/10 14:09
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

so in a nutshell, is southgat picking our strongest defence/team at the minute?

"We then end up where we are now - Taylor in the team with no real cover except Arca and Pogo, neither of whom are currently available and neither of whom you would want to remove from their best position."

so we do have cover then afterall? Don't think them 2 have been injured since taylor made his debut 100 games ago

--- Post edited by sasboro on 23/10 14:10 ---

scoea Posted on 23/10 14:10
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

Yes.

Boromart Posted on 23/10 14:10
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

tell you what sas, I'll answer your question when you have had the decency to answer mine first

1) "ah, being selective again." - In what way? please enlighten me

2) regular CBs under 23 year old

3) To be completely subective Huth hasn't done anything wrong either in his few appearances, so how do you work out who should play?

4) What about Pogo, should Wheater make way for Pogo he hasn't done anything wrong either so shoudl he walk straight back in?

sasboro Posted on 23/10 14:11
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

simple Q, boromart. is wheater a better centre back than riggot in your opinion?

scoea Posted on 23/10 14:12
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

I'll add two more:

1. Do you accept that Arca was bought as a full back?
2. Do you accept that Southgate has proven that he does not necessarily favour his big signings over youngsters?

sasboro Posted on 23/10 14:14
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

1. Do you accept that Arca was bought as a full back? No- if he was he would be playing as left back because taylor needs a rest like wheter does
2. Do you accept that Southgate has proven that he does not necessarily favour his big signings over youngsters? - no as i cant think of any examples

Boromart Posted on 23/10 14:14
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

"hangon, so one minute you say no cover for taylor at left back even though we signed arca to play left back?" -- I'm not sure why you are playing the ignorant card, well actually I do know...but here goes. Arca was signed as a leftback, then got injured Taylor initially did very well in that position. Then Arca came back and we needed someone to play CM. Arca was shoehorned in, and wow, it worked brilliantly. Arca made himself indispensible to the team at CM. He will ow only play LB if we have a severe crisis in that position....i.e. there is no other choice.

joseph99 Posted on 23/10 14:14
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

Some people on this board knew that Arca was a better midfielder than a LB even before his debut. Even the average Sunderland fan knew that - why didn't our over-qualified team of scouts and managers know that??

Boromart Posted on 23/10 14:15
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

my questions were simple as well Sas, but you didn't bother answering them either.

Boromart Posted on 23/10 14:16
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

joseph I'm sure they knew he could play midfield. He played more left-wing than central though at Sunderland.

But we needed a LB as frnaky was going, and he was the best available in our price range so we bought him for that position.

scoea Posted on 23/10 14:17
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

Really joseph - is that despite him playing left back or left midfield in the majority of his Sunderland games. He hardly ever played central midfield.

Sas - your answers to those two questions show that you either have difficulty understanding plain English or choose not to read the posts of those with whom you are having a discussion.

Go back up and read my post at 14.07.

onthemap Posted on 23/10 14:17
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

Sas just put a link up to the league table to show who is talking bollox.

scoea Posted on 23/10 14:19
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

Care to explain that onthemap because as far as I can see that shows a team that is struggling with eitherWheater or Riggott in the side.

onthemap Posted on 23/10 14:20
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

Well for one thing it will show quite clearly that your blind faith in Gareth is misplaced.

joseph99 Posted on 23/10 14:22
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

Scoea - playing midfield is playing midfield whether it be left, right or central - compared to the game at LB. If you had played football you would know that. Every Sunderland fan I know who is worth his salt have said that he is far better in midfield than LB. Left wing???

scoea Posted on 23/10 14:22
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

Care to explain that as well because I think you'll find I was against him being appointed and am making suggestions as to how to improve. By implication I think he got the team wrong on Saturday and has done since we started this slump. More grit is needed. Sorry if that doesn't fit in with your pre-conception of what my views are.

scoea Posted on 23/10 14:23
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

What an arrogant and condascending post joseph - I thought better of you even if we do disagree on most things.

I have played the game actually and still do. If you think that left midfield is anywhere near the same as central midfield and is all that different to left back then I'm afraid it is you that needs educating.

sasboro Posted on 23/10 14:24
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

I've given up ononemap. They just wont admit that wheater is better that riggot and southgate isnt picking the strongest defence possible. Riggot might get sold in january then it wil be ok to admit it.

Arca started his career at left back but then was converted by reid to a midfielder at sudnerland. fair to say he was a midfielder at sunderland more than a left back. Certainly would have been wasted in english football as a left back with his skills

Boromart Posted on 23/10 14:25
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

ah so you can't "win" the discussion at hand so you change to a totally seperate and equally rediculous discussion!

joseph99 Posted on 23/10 14:28
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

Scoea, come off it FFS pot and kettle man!

Read my post again - I will attempt to paraphrase. Playing LB is hugely different to playing midfield.

To suggest that Boro have identified something new because he's playing more central than when he did at Sunderland is pushing it too far.

onthemap Posted on 23/10 14:28
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

Scoea now you're just being silly. If I want to see more into a performance than there actually has been, I read one of your posts,
I often then wonder why Aliadiere is not the natural replacement for Zidane at Real.

Boromart Posted on 23/10 14:28
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

"playing midfield is playing midfield whether it be left, right or central " -- so you will advocate Adam Johnoson being recalled and played centrally and Boateng moved to right wing then

"They just wont admit that wheater is better that riggot and southgate isnt picking the strongest defence possible." -- and you won't answer straight questions put to you because you know that it will ridicule the position you have taken.

scoea Posted on 23/10 14:30
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

In the long term Sas, Wheater may well turn out to be better than Riggott but it was absolutely the correct decision to give Wheater a rest.

That is what he does Boromart. Whether he likes it or not Arca was bought primarily as a left back. No ifs or buts, that is it. He got injured and Taylor did so well that Arca didn't get back in the side thus undoing Sas' argument that big signings would get straight back in the side.

Arca then made the midfield position his own leaving Taylor as our only left back, which again undoes Sas' argument re: Wheater and Taylor.

Boromart Posted on 23/10 14:30
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

"I often then wonder why Aliadiere is not the natural replacement for Zidane at Real." -- Irony the last bastion for someone who has lost their way in a discussion.

joseph99 Posted on 23/10 14:32
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

Boromart: Arca at Sunderland when playing midfield was a creative player, great touch and very economical in possession. Mind you when he did play wide left I am sure he was like Downing - unable to skin his man for pace!

Boromart Posted on 23/10 14:32
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

here is another bit of evidence how he is prepared to play kids above his own signings. Tom Craddock on as sub, DGL twiddling his thumbs on the bench.

scoea Posted on 23/10 14:33
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

How is that being silly onthemap?

Whatever I post, I post honestly. I have posted numerous criticisms of performances, team selections and the like but somehow get painted as this naive, blind follower.

Believe me I am not naive. I know my own mind and quite frankly it says more about you than it does me that your only means of discussing this is to dismiss my opinions in the way you have.

Boromart Posted on 23/10 14:36
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

"Arca at Sunderland when playing midfield was a creative player, great touch and very economical in possession." - agreed. But he played further up the pitch as a winger than as a CM, and all the play was to his right. In central midfield you need greater vision and range of passing, as you have targets to pass to thorughout your plain of vision.

onthemap Posted on 23/10 14:36
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

No Boromart that's not irony, exaggeration but not irony.

'By implication I think he got the team wrong on Saturday and has done since we started this slump'.
This 'slump' has been for how long? Please don't say a month.

Boromart Posted on 23/10 14:37
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

I'll take it back about Irony being the last bastion of someone losing their way in a discussion. Pigeonholing people as someone who lets their heart rule their head IS the last bastion.



--- Post edited by Boromart on 23/10 14:42 ---

Boromart Posted on 23/10 14:38
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

since Aliadiere got injured

sasboro Posted on 23/10 14:38
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

scraping the barrel with mentioning DGL!

Scoea, Arca was a midfielder at sunderland not a left back.

onthemap Posted on 23/10 14:39
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

Pidgeonholing people as someone who lets their head rule their heart IS the last bastion.
Read that back slowly.

joseph99 Posted on 23/10 14:40
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

He was not a winger at Sunderland and it was recognised he was a better as a midfield player. If you have these attributes you can play anywhere in midfield. He is slow so not an effective winger.

We bought him as a LB, which was foolish and ignorant.

scoea Posted on 23/10 14:43
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

My uncle is a season ticket holder at Sunderland. He played left back and left midfield (Arca, not my uncle). That is not the same thing as a winger but is very different to a central midfielder. Buying a player that has spent most of his career at left back is ignorant and foolish?? Funny that.

onthemap - is there any point in me posting anything in response to you? You seem to want to dismiss my opinions and put me in this otional, pre conceived box so why don't we just leave it at that? Anything else is futile.

--- Post edited by scoea on 23/10 14:44 ---

Boromart Posted on 23/10 14:44
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

"scraping the barrel with mentioning DGL!" -- so if I prove you wrong you don't accept it. So other than Wheater (I have already proven he kept senior pros out for 3 games before being rested), which youngsters should have been in the side above senior pros?

"Scoea, Arca was a midfielder at sunderland not a left back." -- according to my mackem ST holding in-laws he played both positions. Probably more as aLB, but in his last 18 months mostly as a midfielder/winger.

just to clarify, by winger, I mean on the left wing, rather than actually being tasked to fly past people and put loads of crosses in for John Stead to miss.

--- Post edited by Boromart on 23/10 14:46 ---

Piquet2 Posted on 23/10 14:48
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

On current form maybe it's Woodgate that should be dropped?

scoea Posted on 23/10 14:49
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

No, although not at his best he isn't doing too much wrong either. I think he needs to play himself into full fitness (which he hasn't yet achieved) and to drop him would be counter productive.

sasboro Posted on 23/10 14:49
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

ok, lets give you the benefit of the doubt he is a left back. So how do you explain taylor never been rested even though he is similar age to wheater who is now being rested? Why wasnt taylor restes when arca was fit? SUrely if taylor can play a full season then why cant wheater. Why rest wheater when he is playing as well as anyone and even ourt best option at set pieces..didnt he even score this season?

scoea Posted on 23/10 14:50
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

Fook me I'm dizzy from running around in circles. Go back to 14.07 Sas for god's sake. Please.

sasboro Posted on 23/10 14:51
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

so scoea please summarise in no more than 1 sentence the answer! without looking down at people

scoea Posted on 23/10 14:53
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

14.07.

Boromart Posted on 23/10 14:55
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

or 14:14 from me, ARca has made himself indispensible at CM, he will not be moved from that position for any reason, because his replacement in midfield would be Boat and that would hurt us to much. It's that simple,he is too good at CM to move.

--- Post edited by Boromart on 23/10 14:55 ---

onthemap Posted on 23/10 14:59
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

SAS why not just accept we are doing well and leave it at that. Look forward to Europe and drop it.

joseph99 Posted on 23/10 14:59
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

He was signed as a LB then moved to play left midfield. He has little pace so is always likely to come inside (which Boromart has just realised) which means he is effectively running into a more central positions in midfield. His weaknesses were exposed at LB by Sunderland as he lacked pace and defensive qualities. I stand by original argument that a LB role and a left midfield (esp. one that has a propensity to cut inside) role are poles apart and far far different from the difference that exists between a left midfielder(esp. one that has a propensity to cut inside)and a central midfielder.

FrenchFranck Posted on 23/10 15:00
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

arca played the manely in left midfield at sundland cos they had micky gray at left back

scoea Posted on 23/10 15:02
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

Well, we simply disagree joseph on where he played at Sunderland and the differences between positions, which is fine. I can accept what you're saying though I disagree and I am sure you can accept my view. No need for any insults to be thrown.

onthemap - I think you have answered my quesiton. Thanks.

Boromart Posted on 23/10 15:05
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

"SAS why not just accept we are doing well and leave it at that. Look forward to Europe and drop it." -- Ah, back to the irony again because your proving nothing, well you are proving one thing

onthemap Posted on 23/10 15:06
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

Glad to be of help Scoea and sorry if I upset you. Let's hope no nasty posters disagree with you at the weekend.

joseph99 Posted on 23/10 15:07
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

Scoea Mart: BTW you are arguing with a someone who made the call ON HERE (or FMTTM msg board) when Sunderland were doomed mid season the last time they appeared in the Premiership that we (the Mac regime) should snap Arca with a daft couple of million up as a creative midfielder - that was well before Southgate snapped him up. I know my stuff

I don't recall insults; glasshouses perhaps.

Boromart Posted on 23/10 15:08
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

"He has little pace so is always likely to come inside (which Boromart has just realised) " -- at what point have I said that he had pace or liked to go outside people? Jees, it's like debating with a sloth. He played on the left-midfield/left-wing position he played it more Darren Anderton than Chris Waddle, I have never said anything that contradicts that.

scoea Posted on 23/10 15:09
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

Again, pure genius.

onthemap Posted on 23/10 15:10
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

Boromart you can't actually 'prove' very much on a messageboard at all. You can hope that reality will prevail but for some it's a painful concept - thinking about it that probably sounds like irony to you.

gravy_boat Posted on 23/10 15:11
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

If I'm allowed to stick my oar in here.

Personally, I think people are getting carried away about how good Wheater is. The lad is great in the air, and will get stuck in all day, however.....he's slow. For a centre half to be slow, their positional awareness needs to be perfect. His is not, IMO.
I also don't think he's particularly comfortable on the ball. The lad will improve, I'm sure, but for me it makes little difference whether he plays or Riggott plays, because I don't think either of them are very good.

Sas, I think to suggest Southgate is playing Riggott ahead of Wheater because he cost more money is quite ridiculous. Why on Earth, with his own job on the line, would he not pick what he felt was the best team? It's preposterous to suggest that he would do anything else.

joseph99 Posted on 23/10 15:11
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

He was a left winger a couple of minutes ago - don't just follow what Scoea says.

Boromart Posted on 23/10 15:12
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

well I argued with all my mates in 1989 that we should sign John Hendrie and play him as a striker....we did and he was a marvellous servant. So I must know my stuff too

scoea Posted on 23/10 15:15
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

Hope of reality on here onthemap? Not with you around. No chance of adult discussion either. However, if it's childish dismissal, unintelligent sarcasm and missing the point you're after then you're the man.

I know my stuff because I thought the appointment of Southgate was a huge mistake. Do I get a bagde?

--- Post edited by scoea on 23/10 15:16 ---

Boromart Posted on 23/10 15:15
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

joseph stop trying to be clever it doesn't suit you at 14:14 I posted played in the left-wing position.

left-wing can describe the role (i.e. get past people) and a position on the pitch, the left touch line, from midfield upwards. The latter describes Arca at Sunderland.

joseph99 Posted on 23/10 15:16
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

Well done - great call. I agree.

I thought Ricketts might have been a good player for us ... how wrong I was ..

onthemap Posted on 23/10 15:17
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

It does amuse me that some, apparently intelligent people, are actually reading this board thinking we are doing ok.
Maybe we are and I've lost it.

scoea Posted on 23/10 15:17
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

This thread has become tedious.

All I was saying was that we needed more aggression in the side.

onthemap - who has said we are doing well. Come on share that with us.

--- Post edited by scoea on 23/10 15:18 ---

Boromart Posted on 23/10 15:19
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

onthemap, you seem to have added pedantry to your list of useless 'talents'.

I put the evidence to Sas, he hasn't denied that evidence or the conclusions drawn from it, thus I have proven his assertions incorrect.

You have proven that your full of bluster, irony, pedantry, and absolute no cohesive thought

joseph99 Posted on 23/10 15:20
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

Scoea, I do recall you saying you thought the Southgate appointment was wrong but then quickly changed your mind to it being the correct choice. You can have 1/2 a badge.

scoea Posted on 23/10 15:21
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

Well, no. What I actually said was that I was prepared to give him a chance and trust Gibbo's judgement.

A 3/4 badge??

gravy_boat Posted on 23/10 15:23
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

1. Riggott or Wheater? - Makes little odds, neither is very good.
2. Was Arca bought as mainly a left back? - yes.
3. Why didn't he cover Taylor? - because he was too effective in midfield.
4. Does Southgate play big name players over youngsters? - Of course he doesn't.
5. Are we any good? Not really.

Thread over.

onthemap Posted on 23/10 15:23
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

Scoea if you have a heart attack don't blame me ok.
If you read the very first response on here to your opening quote I agreed with you, with one small caveat, that Cattermoles agression in his position would not be enough.
Where we differ is that I accept that resorting to players of that ilk ie aggressive rather than say, cultured , is an indication of the state the club is currently in.

sasboro Posted on 23/10 15:24
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

It must be like torture for some to avoid admiting that a boro manager is wrong sometimes

Boromart Posted on 23/10 15:25
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

you were not th eonly one Joseph, we should have had Allerdyce up for Trade Descriptions act.

Piquet2 Posted on 23/10 15:26
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

Does it really matter whether Arca was bought as a full back or left midfield (that's not left winger), he's made one of the central midfield positions his own this season, and back end of last. We once bought a left back that went on to score nearly 200 goals for us.

Boromart Posted on 23/10 15:26
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

well summed up gravy, the only thing I could add to that is that Wheater has shown the promise to be a good CB in the future.

scoea Posted on 23/10 15:27
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

And reality whistles past Sas once again.

onthemap - give over, it's only a messageboard.

I agree with you actually. However, you have to have a balance. At the moment we have too many pretty players and the enforcer (Boateng) is simply not doing it. On that basis adding a bit of steel and aggression will help us.

Now that is a reasonable little discussion rather than resorting to insults or dismissing my opinion because you mistakenly think that I am incapable of anything but blind faith.

Boromart Posted on 23/10 15:28
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

Sas, not half as torturous as you backing the club or saying something positive. you seem to have an issue with authority figures. You don't rate Gibbo, you hate Lamb, you slag off every Boro manager, you hate Fordy, and you hate the senior pros

sasboro Posted on 23/10 15:30
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

i do say positive things about boro, you probably jsut choose to ignore them.

I'm probably split 50/50 on positive/negaitve things in our squad.

If everythign was positive and no questions asked we would be in the championship now.

Still 4th from bottom and southgate staring down the barrel of a gun means its all happy and perfect

"And reality whistles past Sas once again."

scoea your looking down at people is getting boring now. you lost all credibility when you mentioned ballack, viduka will mean we concede less and viduka is staying "mark my words"

--- Post edited by sasboro on 23/10 15:32 ---

scoea Posted on 23/10 15:31
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

Whoosh.

sasboro Posted on 23/10 15:33
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

come on scoea put more effort in to get a bite!

scoea Posted on 23/10 15:34
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

A bite of what?

gravy_boat Posted on 23/10 15:35
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

I'll give you that Mart. He certainly has potential, but in the current situation, I honestly don't think his inclusion would have made any difference to our results, either way.

scoea Posted on 23/10 15:36
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

I agree Gravy. Indeed, including him might hinder his progress rather than help it.

onthemap Posted on 23/10 15:38
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

Ok Boromart here are my thoughts sorry if I'm not coherent enough for you.
1 I did think the appointment of Southgate was wrong - I still do, I don't take pleasure from that, but then people like you will never accept that.
2 I thought the appointment of Cooper was wrong - I still do.
3 Accidentally discovering a players best position does not change my opinions on points 1 or 2.
4 We haven't signed a right sided midfielder, we are playing O'Neill there because he's the only one remotely capable.
5 Southgate needs an experienced hand at the club - but he won't admit that.
6 Ali was signed as a goalscorer and will fail at that.
7 Catt is not good enough because agression is not enough at this level and that seems to me all he brings to the table.
8 Tuncay, Oneill(playing centre midfield) Mido and Woodgate are first class signings.
9 We are facing a relegation battle like last season.
Again sorry if it's not to your liking.

Boromart Posted on 23/10 15:38
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

"I'm probably split 50/50 on positive/negaitve things in our squad." LOL

"If everythign was positive and no questions asked we would be in the championship now.".....Yep, your right Sas, teams get relegated because of fans blind faith. Your ability to, 'guide' fans with your 'greater knowledge', is the only reason that Boro have stayed up for the last decade . Seriously Sas, what a load of rubbish, no one thinks everything is rosey, I'm the first to admit we should have gone for an experienced manager after Eindhoven, we have gone backwards since then. I'm hopeful though that the makeup of the squad is the first green shoots of recovery.

Boromart Posted on 23/10 15:39
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

Agreed Gravy, thats exactly how I feel.

joseph99 Posted on 23/10 15:41
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

Onethemap: has Mido proved he is a 1st class signing or will he do that later (serious question) as I have my doubts.

sasboro Posted on 23/10 15:43
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

but boromart thinks riggot is a liability so does that make wheater a liability if he agrees with gravy_boat that he would have made no difference. how about at corners..there was no john terry playing surely we should have exploited that?

But always the manager never gets it worng even though we are 4th from bottom.

onthemap Posted on 23/10 15:44
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

I think so but it's just an opinion, he needs an experienced striker alongside him though.

joseph99 Posted on 23/10 15:48
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

I agree, he needs fitness and a sustained run, free of injury. My doubts stem from his apparent lack of fitness.

Sas: the best player for me on the field on Saturday was Alex - he was superb in the air. So Terry was not missed defensively.

skiprat Posted on 23/10 15:50
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

"8 Tuncay, Oneill(playing centre midfield) Mido and Woodgate are first class signings."

Tuncay has been much worse than Aliadiere has been to the team so far and Aliadiere hasn't yet been that good himself, I'm not sure how you've come to the conclusion that he is a "first class" signing?

Boromart Posted on 23/10 15:50
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

Ok onthemap......
1 I did think the appointment of Southgate was wrong - I still do, I don't take pleasure from that, but then people like you will never accept that.
-- Firstly you have got off to a terrible start, that proves you have some preconcieved and entirely flawed opinions of me. At the same time you posted this (15:38) I posted my thoughts on why we shouldn't have appointed Southgate. Don't you just love fate!

2 I thought the appointment of Cooper was wrong - I still do.
I am not in a position to know if this is a good or bad signing. I guess having a rookie coach and manager isn't a good thing, but when Coops came in and Round went out our results and defensive performances undoubtedly improved.

3 Accidentally discovering a players best position does not change my opinions on points 1 or 2.
I wouldn't expect it to.

4 We haven't signed a right sided midfielder, we are playing O'Neill there because he's the only one remotely capable.
I partially agree with this. O'Neil is at least an experienced performer in this position, so to label him a CM ONLY is more than unfair. That isn't to say that he isn't better at that role.

5 Southgate needs an experienced hand at the club - but he won't admit that.
Having never spoken to him, I don't know if he will or will not admit it. But I am all for more experience in the backroom staff.


--- Post edited by Boromart on 23/10 15:51 ---

scoea Posted on 23/10 15:51
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

Onthemap, here are my thoughts on your list:

1 I did think the appointment of Southgate was wrong - I still do, I don't take pleasure from that, but then people like you will never accept that.

I am afraid I probably agree with that. Hope I'm wrong.

2 I thought the appointment of Cooper was wrong - I still do.

No strong thought either way.

3 Accidentally discovering a players best position does not change my opinions on points 1 or 2.

Agreed

4 We haven't signed a right sided midfielder, we are playing O'Neill there because he's the only one remotely capable.

Disagree. O'Neil has played the majority of his career there and so is a specialist right sider. I felt that was one of the biggest mistakes against Chelsea. He put two cracking balls in from the right and should have been played there.

5 Southgate needs an experienced hand at the club - but he won't admit that.

Not sure it would make much difference and might hinder. I would rather replace Southgate than get someone to work with him.

6 Ali was signed as a goalscorer and will fail at that.

Disagree. He will score goals but not prolifically. What he does do though is give the team a different dimension. When he was in the side we were 7th top scorers. You know what has happened since he got injured.

7 Catt is not good enough because agression is not enough at this level and that seems to me all he brings to the table.

Disagree again. I think he has a lot of potential. Scored some good goals for us and can pass. Needs to be a little bit more sensible in there though.

8 Tuncay, Oneill(playing centre midfield) Mido and Woodgate are first class signings.

Agree except re: O'Neil.

9 We are facing a relegation battle like last

season.

Agree.

Boromart Posted on 23/10 15:52
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

6 Ali was signed as a goalscorer and will fail at that.
That is both an premanition (that he will fail) and an assumption (that his role is entirely toput the ball in the net). If that is how you form your opinions then that is up to you, good luck with that. I happen not to agree, we will see come the end of the season.

7 Catt is not good enough because agression is not enough at this level and that seems to me all he brings to the table.
Personally I think he is a kid stil, he has shown potential but now needs to show more maturity to his performances. to write him off at this stage seems premature to me, especially since he hasn't had a run in the side in his favoured CM position (if O'Neil can only be rated in his best position then likewise Catt).

8 Tuncay, Oneill(playing centre midfield) Mido and Woodgate are first class signings.
Tuncay has shown nothing yet, he has the quality to adjust and improve but he has been dissapointeing so far. Mido is a class player and will score goals and do better when fully fit. Woody needs a kick up that ass and to learn to take more responsibility.

9 We are facing a relegation battle like last season.
At the moment we are, but 2 wins and we are back in midtable. Its' tight from 8th to bottom at the mo. We have been here before, in worse positions and got out of it. It isn't panic time just yet.

"Again sorry if it's not to your liking." -- why end with a tossbag comment? Just keep things civil.

Boromart Posted on 23/10 15:54
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

I'll tell you for a 3rd time sas and see if it sticks this time....Yes Riggs is a liability. Wheater although not making mistakes is taking the option of not actually trying to tackle, he is just backing off and letting others take responsibility. He is trying not to make a mistake and in doing so is contributing less.

"But always the manager never gets it worng even though we are 4th from bottom.".....and for the 914th time please show where anyone, especially me has said that all is rosey in the garden...you can't can you!

sasboro Posted on 23/10 15:59
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

right assuming that you agree with southgate that riggot is a better option that wheater in our current situation.

Thats be done now, off to ring steveG for my commission for keeping this thread going

onthemap Posted on 23/10 16:01
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

Keep it civil you say,
"You have proven that your full of bluster, irony, pedantry, and absolute no cohesive thought"
and you have just proved that you are in fact a bellend.

Boromart Posted on 23/10 16:02
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

"right assuming that you agree with southgate that riggot is a better option that wheater in our current situation." -- everything has to be black and white with you doesn't it! Monochrome boy!

Boromart Posted on 23/10 16:03
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

well I felt it was pointless being civil to someone who isn't civilized. If you give it out lad you gotta expect to take a little back and to be fair my comments were nothing but observations of your behaviour on the thread. Good luck with your childish insults, you sound like your raging




--- Post edited by Boromart on 23/10 16:07 ---

onthemap Posted on 23/10 16:11
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

I'm fookin furious mate, I keep spluttering tea on my monitor. I'm red in the face because of this sun mind.

Boromart Posted on 23/10 16:15
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

you have reminded me I need some sun cream for golf tommorow. cheers.

onthemap Posted on 23/10 16:20
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

Too hot for golf here especially when raging.
Oh I forgot to say that Downing needs a rest, but wont be given one because we mistakenly let Johnson go on loan to another club.

scoea Posted on 23/10 16:21
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

I'm not sure he needs a rest, he needs to see more of the ball which sadly seems only to happen with Arca in the side.

As for Johnosn, the biggest error there was letting him go and eaving us with absolutely no game changing option on the bench.

Unless you count DGL, which I don't.

Boromart Posted on 23/10 16:36
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

with Downing of to train with England it would have been wise to keep Johnson around. But the lad needs games for his development and confidence, it's a conundrum and I'm on the fence but erring towards we should have kept Johnson here.

scoea Posted on 23/10 20:43
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

It was a bad move to let him go but we are where we are.

I would be invoking the 28 day recall clause though.

zaphod Posted on 24/10 8:26
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

So how are we going to improve our defence then, if it doesn't matter who plays CB?

scoea Posted on 24/10 8:41
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

I think the point being made is that it does matter who plays CB, for example I think Pogo or Huth would make a difference but what doesn't really make a difference is whether you pick Riggott or Wheater.

neilteesside Posted on 26/10 14:41
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

owz about sell downing to spurs in return for keane and defoe?

neilteesside Posted on 26/10 14:52
re: Time for Pogatetz, Cattermole and Huth

thats reply number 201 .