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Northstandstatto Posted on 07/07/2008 21:16
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

If liverpool are prepare to pay 17 million for an average player who is a good fold for stev G. then i wounder in terms of silly money how much would downing worth, but how cheeky are liverpool if they offer less when stewie is younger, quicker, provides more crosses and scorers more goals from open play then Garth Barry? Also if they think a part ex deal would tempt us with s.carson coming our way for 10 million it would only allow us small change to buy limited creative midfielder/winger?

Kevin_Bacon_Butties Posted on 07/07/2008 21:20
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

"but how cheeky are liverpool if they offer less when stewie is younger, quicker, provides more crosses and scorers more goals from open play then Garth Barry?"

But Barry is a different player than Downing. You can't possibly suggest that if Barry goes for 17m that Downing would too.

celestial_teapot Posted on 07/07/2008 21:42
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

Why can't he suggest that Downing who scored a similar number of goals from open play, and set up a similar number of goals to Barry is worth at least the same price from the same team?

It sounds more than reasonable to me. Downing should be worth at least 20 million to us and to let him go for less than that would be very damaging to the club

bubbles Posted on 07/07/2008 21:42
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

Why isn't he worth at least the same as they are prepared to pay for Barry.

Despite the fact that Stevie G seems to think he is invisible and refuses to pass to him.

mailinator Posted on 07/07/2008 21:48
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

Sadly, I fear that Downing right now is worth more than anything Liverpool will bid (and have accepted.)

If we didn't have him last season, we'd have probably gone down. Would make that 17-20 million look awfully small in contrast to the unthinkable.

guisBOROugh Posted on 07/07/2008 21:54
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

If Bently is the rumoured to be costing 15m then i would want at least 17m for Downing.

Kevin_Bacon_Butties Posted on 07/07/2008 22:17
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

"Why can't he suggest that Downing who scored a similar number of goals from open play, and set up a similar number of goals to Barry is worth at least the same price from the same team?"

Do you think Liverpool would honestly be prepared to pay the same for Downing as they may well be for Barry? And explain how Barry's 12 assists this season are similar to Downing's six?

"Downing should be worth at least 20 million to us and to let him go for less than that would be very damaging to the club"

If Downing expressed a desire to leave the club I seriously doubt Boro could hold out for that figure. In fact, if Boro were to even get 17m for him I'd deep-fat fry my own turds and eat them.

I'm seriously beginning to believe that some Boro fans are deluded as the Geordies.

scare_glow Posted on 07/07/2008 22:17
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

"If Bently is the rumoured to be costing 15m then i would want at least 17m for Downing."


then you are obviously some sort of mental case

guisBOROugh Posted on 07/07/2008 22:21
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

Nah, I reckon the person who bids 15m for Bentley is a mental case.

Nobby_Barnes Posted on 07/07/2008 22:51
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

I agree, 15m for Bentley is joke !

Why are certain players overhyped ?

Hercules Posted on 07/07/2008 22:53
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

If Carrick, Hargreaves and Barry are worth 16-18m then Downing is at least worth the same.

Saying Liverpool wouldn't pay that much doesn't make any sense as its not Liverpool who set the price.

Kevin_Bacon_Butties Posted on 07/07/2008 23:08
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

"If Carrick, Hargreaves and Barry are worth 16-18m then Downing is at least worth the same."

Yeah, righty oh.

Hercules Posted on 07/07/2008 23:27
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

I know you've got a hard on for Carrick and Barry but even you must be able to see they are not much, if at all, better than Downing.

All 4 of the players in question are on the fringes of the England team and regulars in the squad.

guisBOROugh Posted on 07/07/2008 23:31
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

To be honest, none of them are worth anything like the amounts of money we are suggesting. Just players prices being stupidly inflated.

But if Man United would pay that much for Carrick I think Downing should be worth a similar amount.

Kevin_Bacon_Butties Posted on 07/07/2008 23:33
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

And surely must be able to see that they aren't left wingers, they're central midfielders, so comparing one with the other is always going to be a point of contention.

Downing has one good season, one that found him underperforming at times and some Boro fans start acting like he's made of solid gold! As much as I hate to say it, but outside of Middlesbrough he's not rated that highly by all.

Of course the biased opinions of some Boro fans will always cloud their judgment, that's to be expected.

guisBOROugh Posted on 07/07/2008 23:39
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

Its not about players positions though, its about their potential and impact on the squad.

Your absolutley right that Downing has had one good season, but hes only young no matter what you may think, Hes shown most Boro fans for the past couple of seasons that he will be a top player.
And last season he carried us in a lot of situations and games, I dont follow Tottenham or Villa.. but im sure the same can be said for Carrick and Barry.


As for... "but outside of Middlesbrough he's not rated that highly by all"... you know fine well nobody outside of Middlesbrough rates anything from here, we're too unfashionable.

Hercules Posted on 07/07/2008 23:42
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

True, they are not left wingers. A fact which would push Downings relative value up as there aren't many left wingers around, however there is a queue of good centre midfielders.

Downing has had one good goalscoring season but has gradually improved his all round game since he came into the first team. last year saw the same inprovement. The only difference was he found his scoring boots.

What does it matter how well players are rated outside of Middlesbrough? Its very rare anything to do with the area is rated as highly as it should be. Though, it matters not as its people inside Middlesbrough (Gareth and Sir Steve) who would set his price should we decide to sell.

The old biased argument only works if the person, who you're accusing of being biased, is unable to present a valid argument. In this case there is a very good argument for Downing being valued as highly as previously mentioned.

Before you start with the insults as per, can I just say that I realise you don't agree with me and can accept that. Can you do the same without being childish?

Kevin_Bacon_Butties Posted on 07/07/2008 23:46
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

And that's why at this moment Boro would never receive a fee for him that can be compared with that received for Carrick, Hargreaves and the likely one for Barry. These players had transfers off the back of good seasons, had won praise from all over and more importantly the media.

Downing doesn't get the column inches that these players did and that in itself can add millions onto any fee, you only need to look at Rooney, Bale, Ramsey, SWP and Walcott for evidence of that.

Hercules Posted on 07/07/2008 23:48
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

So we should sell him for 10m because nobody writes about him?

Golden.

guisBOROugh Posted on 07/07/2008 23:49
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

Yeah youre right I suppose, but you see where Im coming from.

Anyway, dont have time for this all night. Off to watch Red Dwarf, doze off and up for work at 7. Toodles.

Kevin_Bacon_Butties Posted on 07/07/2008 23:53
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

Hercules, who said we should sell him???

If you're not acknowledging the massive influence the media can have on a player's transfer fee then you must walk around with your head up your arse.

Hercules Posted on 07/07/2008 23:59
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

OK so hes only worth 10m (?) because nobody writes about him.

I'll acknowledge the influence the media can have on how a player is percieved by the average person on the street however do you think that if Liverpool, Manchester United or anybody else were seriously considering pursuing him they would have their scouts check him out and the manager would take more than a passing interest in how he plays?

Therefore they would realise how good a player he is and their valuation would be somewhere in the same region as ours. Although obviously not exactly the same, as the buying club would want the fee to be at the lower end of the range while the selling club would want it to be at the top end.

Do you really think Benitez picks up the News of the World and says 'S***! Andy Dunn and Martin Samuels have both said Downing played S***e for England. He must only be worth half what Boro want for him'?

Kevin_Bacon_Butties Posted on 08/07/2008 00:15
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

You've completely missed the point!

The influence the media has is on the fee that the selling club can demand and not as you seem to think; whether a buying club will pursue interest in a player based on media praise.

I don't think Benitez would give a flying toss about what any journo thinks of Downing, but Boro would. Everytime he receives a glowing review in The Times, everytime SKY Sports mention what a great player he's developing into and so on Boro can use that to knock more and more onto his fee.

It happened with Ramsey, with Bale, with Walcott, with SWP and Rooney. When Downing starts getting lauded like they were before their moves then Boro can start commanding a high fee. As it is he doesn't, Downing isn't a media favourite, he doesn't get journos fawning over him when he puts in a good display, he's looked upon as an average player.

Hercules Posted on 08/07/2008 00:21
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

It would be very naive to think that Southgate and Gibson, one of whom sees him play every day in training, would allow their opinion on their player to be influenced by what the media thinks of him. If they think hes as good as Barry, Hargreaves etc(albeit in their respective positions) then they will see it as a precedent being set and will demand the same fee.

Look at what Villa are doing now. They see Barry ahead of Carrick and Hargreaves in the England pecking order and have demanded an inflated fee, which they look like getting, because Carrick and Hargreaves cost 16/17m.

If Liverpool bid 12m for Downing tomorrow and Downing says he wants to leave can you see SG and GS accepting the offer? Or demanding the same fee Liverpool were willing to pay for a player of similar ability(reportedly 15m)?

Kevin_Bacon_Butties Posted on 08/07/2008 00:44
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

WHAT??? Are you honestly of the opinion that a club, any club wouldn't tailor their value of a player partly based on the media perception? There's valuing a player based on their actual ability and then adding more based on how popular they are in the press.

You seem to be dismissing my point about the influence the media have on the value of a player.

Do you honestly think Downing is a similar player to Carrick, Barry and Hargreaves? Downing and those 3 are competing for different positions those 3 are central midfielders, Downing's a winger. If Liverpool came in with a 12m bid for him there is no precedent set for a young English winger that they'd be able to compare Downing with other than possibly Ashley Young.

Acky89 Posted on 08/07/2008 00:50
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

The transfer market is extremely inflated at the minute with english players that are full internationals fetching silly sums of money.

I.e. Carrick, Hargreaves, Bent, Bently?, Barry?

If a club like Liverpool comes along and are serious about buying Downing and Stewie wants to leave i wouldn't even want to start doing business till they starterd talking about 15m plus.

This is how much players of the above calibre are "worth" then Downing has to be in the same bracket for me.

xxlshirts_fit_all Posted on 08/07/2008 00:50
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

"Downing has one good season, one that found him underperforming at times and some Boro fans start acting like he's made of solid gold! As much as I hate to say it, but outside of Middlesbrough he's not rated that highly by all."

one good season?

how some boro fans call them selves football fans is beyond me

he has been good since we loaned him to scumberland

not consistant but good, thats why he got called up in the first place, the reason he didnt look so good after that was pressure and the inability of an england side to utilise his abilities

ie a left winger!!

if he goes we deserve it as a club and a fan base for not supporting him

Kevin_Bacon_Butties Posted on 08/07/2008 00:55
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

"how some boro fans call them selves football fans is beyond me"

Why because they're opinions don't agree with yours?

If Downing had just had a season like he did in 06/07 there's no way in Hell he'd even be able to command a fee of 10m let alone the +17m some seem to be throwing around.

jet-thrust Posted on 08/07/2008 00:56
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

I think people are reading too much into it. These are huge amounts of money we are talking about. If you were willing to spend - say - 12M on Downing that wouldn't be your opening offer would it? You wouldn't say that you think Downing is worth 12M - you would offer 6 or 8M. Enough so Boro would take you seriously but low enough to increase the offer substantially without going over your genuine evaluation.

If Boro then think he was worth 13M they would say they wanted 18M and the bargaining would start. This is why Benitez puts a 10M valuation on Barry and 18M on Crouch. These are Liverpool's starting positions not their real valuations.

However the Barry situation is different. Benitez has royally pi55ed O'Neill off with his antics and it's become a macho/pride thing. Normally the two clubs would end up with a middle valuation they are both happy with. This time it's got personal so all bets are off.

Benitez has a history of these games.

What's Downing worth? In my opinion on today's market, if we were offered more than 10M it would be difficult to see the club not thinking that it may be "benficial to all parties". Just my take on it.

xxlshirts_fit_all Posted on 08/07/2008 01:04
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

"f Downing had just had a season like he did in 06/07 there's no way in Hell he'd even be able to command a fee of 10m let alone the +17m some seem to be throwing around."

but to us he is still worth more than any offer that we get, no mateer what our view is, agreeing with me or not

we cant replace downing with a known skill similar for less
can we? un less you know of some one i dont

xxlshirts_fit_all Posted on 08/07/2008 01:06
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

..

Kevin_Bacon_Butties Posted on 08/07/2008 01:08
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

You make some good points jet-thrust. I for one just cannot see what Downing has done that would make people value him in the same bracket as Barry. They're two different players playing in different positions, one who is an England regular and has been immensely popular due to his international displays, a club captain of a team that has been very good this season and has constantly added to his reputation with consistent displays of great footballing ability.

jumpers4goalposts Posted on 08/07/2008 01:18
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

well said KBB

lakeoffire Posted on 08/07/2008 08:11
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

OH MY FOOKIN GOD

what a bunch of hypocrite's!!!

How come Downing had one good season but barry's mint?

i'm sorry but i seem to remember barry looking rather S***e again T&T whilst stewy and bridge ran the bloody show.

no way is barry worth 18million or whatever the cheatin scousers are willing to pay. you think he's gonna win them the league?

and bentley is a right sided equivalent of downing but not as good.

simple fact is, if downing played for man u or arsenal et al the papers would bum his arse cheeks till they were red raw.

lets be grateful the lad still wants to play for us and hope that liverpool etc keep buying overpriced S***e and dont fancy our best player (BY A LONG SHOT)

Boromart Posted on 08/07/2008 09:15
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

"And explain how Barry's 12 assists this season are similar to Downing's six?" -- two reasons. Firstly Villa had strikers that could finish, and a physical threat in the box, we didn't. Secondly, most of Barrys assists were from deadballs.

Barry only scored 4 goals from open play, and many of his assists were deadball. Well Gerrard is a self-centred greedy B****** and will continue to take Liverpools setpieces, and Barry will be about 4th choice for penalties, so if he goes I doubt he will get more than 3 league goals and a handful of assists for them.

easycomeeasygo Posted on 08/07/2008 09:29
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

kbb still talking sh1t i see.

downing is better than barry, he plays in a position where it is a lot harder to find quality as there is a massive shortage of top left wingers.


therefore downings value should be greater as he is a rare commodity

Boromart Posted on 08/07/2008 09:42
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

Downing is also younger and quicker. You can't teach pace and that lack of pace will always be a hinderance on Barrys career.

BoroPhil Posted on 08/07/2008 09:55
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

Not that highly rated out of Teesside? What apart from Spurs, Liverpool and Fabio Capello?

bacon buttie man is either a geordie, a mackem or an idiot.

Downing would be 20m minimum in today's prices.

easycomeeasygo Posted on 08/07/2008 09:57
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

he's just an idiot phil

BoroPhil Posted on 08/07/2008 09:59
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

[:D] thought so


Boromart Posted on 08/07/2008 09:59
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

and Arsene Wenger, and Sven Goran Eriksson.

Kevin_Bacon_Butties Posted on 08/07/2008 09:59
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

"two reasons. Firstly Villa had strikers that could finish, and a physical threat in the box, we didn't. Secondly, most of Barrys assists were from deadballs."

AND??? Are you dismissing Barry's record because his assists were from deadballs? What exactly are you getting at, Boromart?

Kevin_Bacon_Butties Posted on 08/07/2008 10:03
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

"i'm sorry but i seem to remember barry looking rather S***e again T&T whilst stewy and bridge ran the bloody show."

What game were you watching??? Was it the same one where Barry scored, the one where he was MOTM?

Kevin_Bacon_Butties Posted on 08/07/2008 10:04
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

"kbb still talking sh1t i see.

downing is better than barry, he plays in a position where it is a lot harder to find quality as there is a massive shortage of top left wingers.


therefore downings value should be greater as he is a rare commodity"

And if you think Boro can receive a fee for Downing like the ~18m being rumoured for Barry then you're dumber then I thought.

FOURSEASONS77 Posted on 08/07/2008 10:05
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

To be fair Ashley young went to villa for 9.5 million 18 months ago and done well so how much would you say he would be worth now if they were to sell, 15mill? If thats the case surely downing would be worth at least that as he appears to be ahead of him in the england squad? Transfer fees have gone through the roof and no longer reflect the true value of the player. If the big clubs think they can come and bully teams into letting them have their best players they should have to pay premium price, I agree totally with what aston villa are doing.

easycomeeasygo Posted on 08/07/2008 10:07
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

i wouldn't pay more than 10 mil for barry

i wouldn't sell stewy for less than 20 mil and even then i wouldn't really wanna sell him

Kevin_Bacon_Butties Posted on 08/07/2008 10:12
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

"Not that highly rated out of Teesside? What apart from Spurs, Liverpool and Fabio Capello?"

Hold on a minute. There's nothing to say Liverpool do rate him, the speculation was media filling column inches. I'll give you Capello and Spurs though, but big WOW! Firstly, go read exactly what I posted. Secondly, go and find what other fans from other clubs think of him. I'll tell you know that it's wholly negative. The Scousers were baulking at the possibility of Liverpool paying 12m for Downing when the rumours surfaced a few weeks ago.

"bacon buttie man is either a geordie, a mackem or an idiot."

I wondered how long it would take for some pillock to start rolling out the insults and accusations of being a Geordie/Mackem. Perhaps you should realise and understand that not all Boro fans are deluded, blinkered morons who can't accept that not everyone has a overly high opinion of players who have one decent season.

"Downing would be 20m minimum in today's prices."

And who do you honestly think would pay that?! You're in cloud cuckoo land if you honestly think any club would pay that for Downing.

You can argue that's what he may be worth to Boro, but the reality is far from that.

Kevin_Bacon_Butties Posted on 08/07/2008 10:14
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

"i wouldn't pay more than 10 mil for barry

i wouldn't sell stewy for less than 20 mil and even then i wouldn't really wanna sell him"

And as much as you're entitled to your opinion, you're not Liverpool, Benitez or Boro.

BoroPhil Posted on 08/07/2008 10:14
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

one decent season? he's had more than that - how do you think he's been consistently getting in the England squad the last few years?

You're in the minority here with your opinion so you are either wrong or have a unique, special perspective on Mr.Downing that 90% of the country is missing.

and - I doubt anyone will pay 20m - which means he will stay.



Kevin_Bacon_Butties Posted on 08/07/2008 10:16
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

FOURSEASONS77, I agree with you about Ashley Young, but I'm not sure how you can state that a player must be worth more than another becuase they're ahead of them in the England squad. Joe Cole's ahead of Downing.

easycomeeasygo Posted on 08/07/2008 10:22
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

and cole is worth more than downing

Kevin_Bacon_Butties Posted on 08/07/2008 10:24
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

"one decent season? he's had more than that - how do you think he's been consistently getting in the England squad the last few years?"

So beause he's been getting in the England SQUAD then he must have been having tremendous seasons??? Yeah, I can see your logic, perhaps you can tell me how SWP has managed to consistently get in the England squad, and Paul Robinson, and Peter Crouch despite them all being pretty underwhelming recently for their clubs?

"You're in the minority here with your opinion so you are either wrong..."

Ah yes, that old chestnut! I may be in a minority on this thread but move this to a Liverpool, Chelsea, Aston Villa, Spurs, Man Utd, Arsenal board and the opinions will be massively different.

easycomeeasygo Posted on 08/07/2008 10:27
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

all those fans from other clubs dont see him week in week out so can't reaally judge whether he has had a good season or not.

downing had a dip in form for about a season, other than that the lad has been quality

BoroPhil Posted on 08/07/2008 10:29
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

You're in the minority here with your opinion so you are either wrong..."

Ah yes, that old chestnut! I may be in a minority on this thread but move this to a Liverpool, Chelsea, Aston Villa, Spurs, Man Utd, Arsenal board and the opinions will be massively different.

ffs, who on earth is best judged to decide if Downing is a good player? The people who see him week in, week out, or opposition fans? and actually, I think you'll find a lot of those fans will agree he is a good player.

and if you are arguing that being consistently picked in the England squad isn't a benchmark for being a good player, there's no hope for you tbh.


Kevin_Bacon_Butties Posted on 08/07/2008 10:31
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

"all those fans from other clubs dont see him week in week out so can't reaally judge whether he has had a good season or not."

Do you watch Barry week-in, week-out?

easycomeeasygo Posted on 08/07/2008 10:35
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

when have i said i don't rate barry?

i'm just saying downing is worth more money

Boromart Posted on 08/07/2008 10:36
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

bloodyhell KBB is it your rag-week? Chiull out man, people are allowed a differant opinion to you. If you carry on getting this stressed at a messageboard then you'll end up having an anuerysm before you reach your 20th birthday.

To answer your qwuestion:
"AND??? Are you dismissing Barry's record because his assists were from deadballs? What exactly are you getting at, Boromart? " -- I am not dismissing his record, I am putting it into context, he was in a better team so it flatters him. At Liverpool he will be a small fish in a big pond, he will be subject to squad rotation, something he has never endured, he will not be handed the ball every time there is a free kick, again something that is new to him. If you had read my earlier post with an open mind I wouldn't have had to repeat this.

Regarding your comments on Downing, that he is viewed "wholly negative" by fans of other clubs then that opinion seems ill informed to me. I live amongst southerners, Chelsea, Arse, Manure, Charlton, Spurs, West Ham and Manure fans on the whole. To a man they have changed their opinion in the last 12 months to begrudgingly admit I was right and that Downing is the best English left-winger by a country mile and a quality player worthy of a place in the england squad.

There is nothing sychophantic about the above, it is fact. They majority have changed their opinion.

Kevin_Bacon_Butties Posted on 08/07/2008 10:43
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

"ffs, who on earth is best judged to decide if Downing is a good player? The people who see him week in, week out, or opposition fans? and actually, I think you'll find a lot of those fans will agree he is a good player."

And do you think that the opinions of those fans that watch him regularly doesn't come without a certain amount of bias? If you believe that fans from other clubs think he's a good player then show me the way because everytime I see his name crop up there's a collective groan.

"and if you are arguing that being consistently picked in the England squad isn't a benchmark for being a good player, there's no hope for you tbh."

Do you think it is? Explain to me how SWP and Robinson get constantly picked for international duty despite both being relatively poor for their respective clubs?

Let me make it clear; I do think Downing is a decent player, he's been great this season especially in the second half, but I don't for one second believe that if Boro were to sell him this summer (and I hope they don't) that they could demand a fee for him similar to that Villa are for Barry.

Kevin_Bacon_Butties Posted on 08/07/2008 10:46
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

"when have i said i don't rate barry?

i'm just saying downing is worth more money"

You didn't. What you posted was that you wouldn't pay more than 10m for him and that you think Downing is worth more money.

BoroPhil Posted on 08/07/2008 10:51
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

Indeed Boromart, from opposition fans I talk to, there seems to be a general (admittedly grudging) view now that Downing is actually a cracking player.


lakeoffire Posted on 08/07/2008 10:52
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

KBB is their no grey area with you?

why does downing have to be S*** or tremendous?

he was very very good last season, pretty good the year before and promising the seasons before that.

Kevin_Bacon_Butties Posted on 08/07/2008 10:55
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

I can't be bothered with the other amount of S***e in your post Boromart, you've clearly missed the point yet again, which is or no surprise to me.

If you think my remark regarding other fan's opinions of him is ill-informed then you should take your head out of your arse.

You can bleat on and on about Barry this, Barry that. The fact remains he's been outstanding for both club and country and you can argue about the goals he's scored and created and how he's gone about it but just because Villa value him at such an amount it is not a precedent to value a completely different player in regards to that at all.

easycomeeasygo Posted on 08/07/2008 10:58
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

i know i did, so where have i said i don't rate barry?

Kevin_Bacon_Butties Posted on 08/07/2008 10:58
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

What's your point, lakeoffire?

I've stated that I think Downing is a good player. I've made myself clear that I don't think he can be valued at similar to Barry and explained why I feel that way. What is so difficult for some to understand?

Boromart Posted on 08/07/2008 11:01
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

Am I the only person here that thinks that KBB is the most ignorant wankstain on any messageboard and argues like a small child who demands that he will not eat his tea?

There is no point trying to debate with him because all he does is shout about how everybody is stupid for not having the same view as him. There is no point discussing with him.

Kevin_Bacon_Butties Posted on 08/07/2008 11:04
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

Stop crying Boromart. If you can't accept that people will disagree with you then please bugger off and leave the debate for those that actually want to participate in it.

I have my opinion, other's have theirs. That's the nature of the world we live in and it's what forums like this are for.

Kevin_Bacon_Butties Posted on 08/07/2008 11:05
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

"i know i did, so where have i said i don't rate barry?"

Did you not read my last post aimed at you, especially the part where I said: "You didn't"?

Boromart Posted on 08/07/2008 11:06
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

except to debate you have to have teh ability to respect other peoples views. It is blatenetly obvious you are incapable of doing that.

The fact that you accuse me of the same shows what an idiot you are. I'll let you have the last word, you always make sure you do, you like to debate by shouting loudest and shouting last. So take it away.....

easycomeeasygo Posted on 08/07/2008 11:08
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

so why ask the question about how often i watch barry?

forget it kbb, can't be arsed

Kevin_Bacon_Butties Posted on 08/07/2008 11:11
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

Boromart, do you understand the definition of "hypocrisy"

I don't have to respect anyone's opinion and why would I? If I disagree with what some are saying then I don't have to respect that at all. However, I do respect their right to have an opinion and if I disagree with it I'll let in be known.

You've resorted to spitting the dummy and rather than debate the topic resorted to acting like a petulant child throwing insults and dumb accusations around: all the attributes of a defeated and severely peeved individual.

hadawaynshite Posted on 08/07/2008 11:11
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

Newcastle are making a bid


Link: not bad too

Boromart Posted on 08/07/2008 11:14
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

KBB you DON'T respect peoples right to have an opinion because you call them idiots if they don't agree with you.

Hypocrite, look in a dictionary and you will see your ugly mug. Your the one that took it off topic, I suggest you go back and re-read....but you won't because you are supremely arrogant and won't admit your wrong. Your very insecure.

Go on you can have one last tantrum, I'm bored with you paul, your a loon.

SalfordJim Posted on 08/07/2008 11:15
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

from an outsiders point of view...downing is an average player, he has the odd good spell ( similar to Lennon etc..) but overall he is a player that needs a change , he looks to have gone stale ..and hardly a spring chicken anymore...the price is irrelevant , its how needy the buying club are and how much they ar willing to pay ....20m is waaayy to much especially when you think that for that you could Quersesma, or Arshavin , or silva, for less....

Boromart Posted on 08/07/2008 11:17
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

"he looks to have gone stale " -- Salford that seems a strange view considering he has just had his best season and been top scorer and player of the year. [:)]

Kevin_Bacon_Butties Posted on 08/07/2008 11:17
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

"so why ask the question about how often i watch barry?"

Why would not pay more than 10m for Barry?

BoroPhil Posted on 08/07/2008 11:19
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

looks to have gone stale [:D] that's the funniest comment in this thread yet


easycomeeasygo Posted on 08/07/2008 11:19
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

hardly a spring chicken?

lol, he's 23 salford.

hardly over the hill

average player? behave yourself

easycomeeasygo Posted on 08/07/2008 11:21
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

because i don't think he is worth anymore than that.
i would've thought that was obvious

Kevin_Bacon_Butties Posted on 08/07/2008 11:21
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

"KBB you DON'T respect peoples right to have an opinion because you call them idiots if they don't agree with you.

Hypocrite, look in a dictionary and you will see your ugly mug. Your the one that took it off topic, I suggest you go back and re-read....but you won't because you are supremely arrogant and won't admit your wrong. Your very insecure.

Go on you can have one last tantrum, I'm bored with you paul, your a loon."

Have you even been following this thread? Have you not bothered to note the insults that have been directed at me? Including your needless off-topic attack?

Put your dummy back in FFS, and stop acting like a spoilt child. The only person having a tantrum is you with your "ARGH! KBB doesn't agree with me so rather than continuing the debate I'll just insult him over and over again becuase I can't construct a decent argument!"

I expect your spamming to commence anytime soon.

SalfordJim Posted on 08/07/2008 11:21
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

"he looks to have gone stale " -- Salford that seems a strange view considering he has just had his best season and been top scorer and player of the year.

well you have me at a disadvantage ..I dont watch him every week ..but when he plays against United he does seem to have a bit to his game ..but a lot of players play their best games against United....however the odd game I watched on Sky ..boro/bolton /villa/everton ..( I think) ...he was in and out ..didnt realy do anything special

SalfordJim Posted on 08/07/2008 11:26
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

hardly a spring chicken?

lol, he's 23 salford.

hardly over the hill"

exactly , he is supposedly reaching his peak and has 5-6yrs frist team experience plus england expereinces ...and yet he is still viewed as average by everyone outside boro....





"average player? behave yourself"...sorry to burst your bubble ..but he is

BoroPhil Posted on 08/07/2008 11:29
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

you speak to different people than me then Salford. Downing's reputation has increased quite a bit this season.

he's had his best season by far, Capello loves him, he's scoring now as well as assisting. just keeps getting better and better.

basically, you are wrong.


easycomeeasygo Posted on 08/07/2008 11:33
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

"sorry to burst your bubble" no need to apologise salford cos you haven't burst it matey. he is so far past average, the best left winger in the league. is petrov average?

SalfordJim Posted on 08/07/2008 11:34
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

as I say ....you have me at a disadvantage, i dont watch him all the time ...however if he was as good as you say then he wouldnt be at boro at 23 ?

its not having a dig , he is a good player just not 20m worth of good player....nani is 5 yrs younger a full international and lights up the pitch ..yes he is inconsisitent ..but he didnt cost 20m

SalfordJim Posted on 08/07/2008 11:35
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

"the best left winger in the league."...really ?

easycomeeasygo Posted on 08/07/2008 11:39
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

he was a couple of mil shy of 20 mil though and downing is better.

so because he is at boro he cant be a good player? what utter bull sh1t

SalfordJim Posted on 08/07/2008 11:42
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

and Nani won a PL title and a CL in his first yr..so 5 yrs younger and his value has increased ...Downing has never even playeed CL games ..and to say he is better when noone is beating a path to his door , is a bit OTT

easycomeeasygo Posted on 08/07/2008 11:46
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

eh? what a load of rubbish.

nani has won those trophies cos he plays for man u

downing plays for boro

so what you are saying is that carrick must be better than gerrard cos he has won the premier league?

downing has been attracting interest since he was 18 but we've always stated he is not for sale

stop talking sh1t man

SalfordJim Posted on 08/07/2008 11:50
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

we have digressed..I thought we were discussing YOUR player ..I was mistaken involving Nani ..different topic altogther...

let look at a comparison ...Aaron lennon ...is he worth 20m..no..and if your being honest..downing wouldnt get into a top three club would he ..so little chance of winning a something big....as I say little point comapring him to Nani

easycomeeasygo Posted on 08/07/2008 11:53
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

and why wouldn't downing get in to a top 3 club?
he is more than capable of holding his own at the top level and i think he'd see plenty of games for a club like liverpool. he'd get his fair share at arsenal and man u too. didn't park ji sung play out there for you on occassion last season?

downing laughs at him mate

SalfordJim Posted on 08/07/2008 11:56
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

dowing wouldnt get a game at united..he wouldnt get ahead of nani, ronaldo, giggs or park ..who cann all play on either flank...chelsea..No arsenal ...no not mobile enough ...

so that leaves liverpool a club who need a winger but is downing better than pennant?

Boromart Posted on 08/07/2008 11:56
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

Jim, I belive he would be a benchwarmer for the top two, getting some starts and some subs, he is better than Malouda and better than Nani.

I think he is good enough to start for Arsenal. He would not look out of place in there team, two good feet, pace, good one touch passer, good vision and can cut in and score goals with both feet.


easycomeeasygo Posted on 08/07/2008 11:58
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

downing is better than nani, better than park and surely given giggs is in the twilight of an illustrious career you'd rather have downing?

pennant? i'm done debating with you after that comment! ffs

SalfordJim Posted on 08/07/2008 11:59
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

lets disagree...we can only compare when nani is 5 yrs older..and look at his develpment then ...

Boromart Posted on 08/07/2008 12:24
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

KBB - here are the facts:

9:15 my first post - discussing Downing.

9:59 - you respond in a prickly arrogant manner - "AND??? Are you dismissing Barry's record because his assists were from deadballs? What exactly are you getting at, Boromart? "

between 9:59 and 10:36 - you abuse several posters -
" you're dumber then I thought."
"but big WOW!"
"some pillock"
"deluded, blinkered morons "
"You're in cloud cuckoo land "

After your attacks on everyone I asked if you were on your rag-week. I think it's plain to see why I asked! Chill out Paul you seem to be at the centre of 95% of arguments on here.

downinman Posted on 08/07/2008 12:26
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

probably worth 12-15m, his prive would only go up more if manutd or chelsea wanted him. then you can get it nearer 20m. But at the moment he isnt good enough to get in the manutd or chelsea team. Scolari wil prefer to buy abroad and manutd already have alternatives jsut as good.

Unless we have a really good season i think next summer he will decide it is time to move on. I heard he has a release clause if a club bids a certain amount

Boromart Posted on 08/07/2008 12:29
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

"we can only compare when nani is 5 yrs older..and look at his develpment then ..." -- thats a differant question though Jim. Will Nani be a better player? maybe. At the moment though Downing is a far more mature, intelligent footballer. If he was in your squad I'm sure he would play more often than Nani and Giggs. It is unlikely Downing will ever reach the highs of Giggs career, but at this moment he is a better footballer because Giggs legs have gone, and the premierleague has moved on physically and technically since his heyday.

Kevin_Bacon_Butties Posted on 08/07/2008 12:32
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

Excuses, excuses Boromart. It's amazing how you ignore the insults leveled at me though. Just keep spitting your dummy out and throwing tantrums when things don't go your way as you always do, Harold.

SalfordJim Posted on 08/07/2008 12:34
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

as I said ..let agree to disagree...

but if you SAF thought the way you do ..dont you think he would have made his move by now?..and not spent the money on park and nani?

downinman Posted on 08/07/2008 12:34
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

I like Boromart he build up the players to be world class but then says we will only finish mid table. he is a good guy though.

easycomeeasygo Posted on 08/07/2008 12:37
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

by that reckoning salford, ferguson would go for every player he felt would be good enough to play for utd. you can't sign everyone and as i said, downing is not for sale

Kevin_Bacon_Butties Posted on 08/07/2008 12:38
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

"probably worth 12-15m, his prive would only go up more if manutd or chelsea wanted him. then you can get it nearer 20m. But at the moment he isnt good enough to get in the manutd or chelsea team. Scolari wil prefer to buy abroad and manutd already have alternatives jsut as good.

Unless we have a really good season i think next summer he will decide it is time to move on. I heard he has a release clause if a club bids a certain amount"

Refreshing to see someone more realistic as a contrast to the embarrassing drivel posted by Boromart.

To comment on your last paragraph; if Downing performs like he did this past season and Boro fail to make any mark on the season just as they have done, I can see him putting in a transfer request and I don't think anyone would begrudge him of that.

downinman Posted on 08/07/2008 12:38
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

I don't think there has been any bids for downing so his price will not be that high at the moment.

Boromart Posted on 08/07/2008 12:39
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

"It's amazing how you ignore the insults leveled at me though." - Excuses! You seem to be a magnet to aggression paul. You should ask yourself why, self analysis never did anyone any harm.

easycomeeasygo Posted on 08/07/2008 12:39
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

how are boromarts posts embarrassing?

you talk absolute garbage 24/7 kbb.

how you can describe someone else's posts as embarrassing is beyond me

Kevin_Bacon_Butties Posted on 08/07/2008 12:40
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

"by that reckoning salford, ferguson would go for every player he felt would be good enough to play for utd. you can't sign everyone and as i said, downing is not for sale"

But if Man Utd came in with a serious offer for Downing at the end of the 06/07 season do you think he'd still be here?

Boromart Posted on 08/07/2008 12:40
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

cheers downinman. I do think Downing has the potential to be a top class player....it's just a shame we don't have 10 more like him [:)]

Libbins Posted on 08/07/2008 12:42
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

Nani?


Link: Come on, seriously

Kevin_Bacon_Butties Posted on 08/07/2008 12:44
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

"how are boromarts posts embarrassing?"

Because rather than debate the topic Harold spat his dummy out, began with the insults and then had the audacity to turn around and criticise me.

SalfordJim Posted on 08/07/2008 12:45
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

if you think United are a team of cra+ or overated players...how come we end up winning stuff?

Libbins Posted on 08/07/2008 12:47
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

cause you've got Ronaldo.

SalfordJim Posted on 08/07/2008 12:50
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

a one man team ...arghh good we can sell everyone else and just play him.....

honeslty ..shhsshh

did he play in th ebest defence in the league last season ?

did he score the additional 53 goals scored by rooney and tevez

Boromart Posted on 08/07/2008 12:55
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

world class players - Ferdinand, Ronaldo,

brilliant players - VDS, Evra, Hargreaves, Rooney (can be world class on his day), Vidic, Carrick, scholes, tevez

plus you have a bunch more decent players. Harsh to say a one or two man team. But those two consistantly shine above the rest.

SalfordJim Posted on 08/07/2008 12:59
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

its a team game ..if it was just about individuals then the galacticos would have won everything under the sun ....

first class players, coached by first class coaches, and then managed by a first class manager...gives you a chance.

Libbins Posted on 08/07/2008 12:59
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

[:D]

WHOOSH!

Boromart Posted on 08/07/2008 13:05
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

"first class players, coached by first class coaches, and then managed by a first class manager...gives you a chance." -- I ment to put Fergie in teh world class bit. He is hte one constant during the last 20 years of success.

Eidur Posted on 08/07/2008 13:15
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

as a liverpool fan, I'd love to see downing at the club. however, i dont think either downing or gareth barry are worth more than 15m and its also extremely difficult to compare them.

barry - holding midfielder
downing - winger.

i think both of them are excellent players but in todays market i think 15m is a very reasonable sum for either of them. i'm not saying boro or villa should sell to liverpool but i also think liverpool shouldnt pay more than 15m.

to make cmparison between the transfer fee on michael carrick is also not an accurate reflection of a players value. 16m for carrick? your on a wind up. he's gash!!!

SalfordJim Posted on 08/07/2008 13:32
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

gash...erm... how much has he won in 2 seasons?

Eidur Posted on 08/07/2008 13:35
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

not denying the fact he's won alot but he's part of a very good team. he gives the ball away alot and tries to play the 'hollywood' pass far too often. gareth barry/owen hargreaves are far better in that particular position.

(waits for Steven Gerrard comments)

SalfordJim Posted on 08/07/2008 13:40
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

ermm ...if he
1) gives the ball too much
2) plays "hollywood passes" to much
then SAF wouldnt have given him the games he did would he ..he could have played fletcher, anderson , oshea more in his place...

easycomeeasygo Posted on 08/07/2008 13:42
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

ow, ya manc/scouse tw@ts! this is a boro board and it is a downing thread. if ya wanna chat sh1t about carrick fook off to yer own board

SalfordJim Posted on 08/07/2008 13:44
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

if you feel soo strongly that you have to prostrate yourself with such language ..a simple solution ..for a simple poster


















DONT FOO+ING REPLY!!!!!!

Eidur Posted on 08/07/2008 13:44
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

shut up you silly tw4t. the other boro fans were making comparisons with the fees of various players in comparison to downing. barry and carrick were part of that discussion.

bernieisgod Posted on 08/07/2008 13:48
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

the point being that this is a boro board and you two are hijacking the thread to discuss carrick exclusively - would be better done on a mancs/scouse board somewhere - on the other hand I didn't have to reply - Doh! On the other other hand I don't have to hit the post message button now either - Doh!

easycomeeasygo Posted on 08/07/2008 13:52
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

:) woo hoo!! reel em' in

Eidur Posted on 08/07/2008 13:54
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

right, if you wanna go down that route then fine. what about the durham vs yorkshire posts? the PINKPONCE offer of the day posts? the alfa romeo posts? thes have nothing to do with MFC.

however, as i exlplained, the carrick example was used to highlight the comparison of transfer fees and what boro should expect/accept for downing.

zaphod Posted on 08/07/2008 14:00
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

Different players for different teams. Nani in the Boro team instead of Downing would be as much use as a chocolate teapot. Some players need to be surrounded by quality in order to perform. A lot of the England midfield are like that & quite a few of the stars of the top clubs. Players like Barry & Downing who can produce in the midst of rubbish are like gold dust.

boro74 Posted on 08/07/2008 17:35
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

The worth of a player in the transfer market is defined by various things. Amongst others...

ability,
age,
how long left on current contract,
other players available on the market in his position,
how much buying clubs needs him,
how much selling club needs him,
how much selling club would need to replace him.

Taking that lot into account, I wouldn't even consider letting Downing go for less than 25 million.

He's young, he plays for england, he's just signed a new contract,there aren't many left footed wingers around, he's our most important player and how much would we have to spend to get a player of his ability to replace him?

LucyFir Posted on 08/07/2008 17:46
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

And if his girlfriends fit that adds a lot to

Boromart Posted on 08/07/2008 18:01
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

well said Boro74....


ability - high

age - young but old enough and mature enough to make an immediate impact

how long left on current contract - FIVE years

other players available on the market in his position - very few.

how much buying clubs needs him - Liverpoo? well quite a lot

how much selling club needs him - He is our best player and we need him a lot more than we need hte money.

how much selling club would need to replace him - we do have other options but none of them are proven premier league LWers.

Taking all that into account, Liverpoo would have to offer well over the odds to convince us to part with him.

Hercules Posted on 08/07/2008 18:03
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

Yeah but the media don't love him so we should flog him for a 5er according to some.

boro_boy1984 Posted on 08/07/2008 18:25
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

think downings stock is as high as it will get, 12-14mill is realistic, we should sell now if we get that sort of offer IMHO.

HolgateEnd Posted on 08/07/2008 19:09
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

Boro boy, what would be the point in flogging him for 12-14m? How much would it cost us to replace him - at least that? I would say probably more, plus we'd have to go foreign cos there are no other left footed English wingers (Johnson is nowhere near ready for a 1st team place yet) which means taking a gambling plus a settling in period etc etc.

I also agree with a lot of the posts at the start. Although Carrick/Hargreaves/Barry are central midfielders, I think a players value is determined more by Boro_74s list and the affect that player will have on the team. For example, an attacker will (99% of the time) always cost more than a defender/defensive player. Which theoretically already means Downing should cost more than the aforementioned 3 players - because he will score and create more goals.

Regardless of all of that, I'd just tell Liverpool to stick it up their arse and put a 30m bid in for Steve Gerrard (with no intention of buying) just for the sake of it to show them how it feels to have clubs trying to steal your best player.

Jonny_Ingbar Posted on 08/07/2008 19:51
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

Anyone who thinks selling Downing (at any price) needs to think long and hard about whether they would enjoy watching Championship football next season.

king_hellfire Posted on 08/07/2008 23:15
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

'how much buying clubs needs him - Liverpoo? well quite a lot'


Fair enough boromart that's your opinion but every Liverpool fan i talk to at the game would rather keep Babel on the wing than have Downing play there and if (and it's a big if) we do buy Downing, then the only time he will get a game for us is when Benitez feels like playing Babel up front.

Boromart Posted on 09/07/2008 08:48
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

I'd forgotten about Babel, so liverpoo don't really need him and will never put in an offer that is reflective of his Downings value to us.

Good player Babel, but not up to Downings standards.

snicker_77 Posted on 09/07/2008 09:40
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

Ive got to say my personal oppinion is that Downing is worth a good 11 million not a pennyh more or less, great delivery, better than Bentley (S***e by the way) wonder how he would do in a side like liverpool and playing against the big boys in champs league

Brick_Tamland Posted on 09/07/2008 09:49
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

If a buyer was really interested I could see Boro getting the equivalent 12.5m for him should a player + cash deal be accepted by the club. I doubt he's top of anyone's transfer list, I think GS would inform Lamb and Gibson that he won't entertain idea of losing his best player and presume Downing is happy to stay where he is for one more season at least.

It's a non-starter, in my opinion.

Boromart Posted on 09/07/2008 10:07
Liverpol Cheeky - Downing True Value?

if we go back in time 11 months, we sold one of our best players for around 12mill, it screwed our season up. I don't see any reason for us to sell at that price.