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Lisbonlegend Posted on 23/06/2008 12:13
Renewable Energy

What are your thoughts?

ridsdale Posted on 23/06/2008 12:24
Renewable Energy

Is that when you reconnect the meter after they have cut you off?

Rocky10 Posted on 23/06/2008 13:34
Renewable Energy

Waste to energy is the way to go.

Yes its inceneration but with a whole new approach with vertually no emmisions to the atmosphere.

I'll be out of a job in no time!

Lisbonlegend Posted on 23/06/2008 13:52
Renewable Energy

Rocky, did you hear about lakeside EFW plant being delayed?

Critical_Bill Posted on 23/06/2008 13:55
Renewable Energy

Talking shop on a messageboard.

*Dullometer needle goes off the scale*

Lisbonlegend Posted on 23/06/2008 13:56
Renewable Energy

Dullometer went off the scale when a certain poster who shall not be named started talking about himself everyday.

How's the job going, Bill?

Rocky10 Posted on 23/06/2008 13:57
Renewable Energy

No I'm up in the north working on projects up here but we have a site ear marked at Dagenham.

Still to many Nimbys about should stick them in industrial estates to stop the fuss.

I think every industrial estate will have one of the new generation of plants.

Lisbonlegend Posted on 23/06/2008 14:08
Renewable Energy

Rocky, do you know much about Contour Global?

Critical_Bill Posted on 23/06/2008 14:09
Renewable Energy

I'm getting closer to the day that I leave it behind.

Rocky10 Posted on 23/06/2008 14:13
Renewable Energy

No only just what I've read on their website, very much like Carbon Resolutions that we are dealing with.

Why you ask is that who you work for or are you trying to get in there?

Lisbonlegend Posted on 23/06/2008 14:22
Renewable Energy

My brother is going for a job there and asked me about them but I've never heard of them.

WOuld you consinder emigrating, Bill?

Lisbonlegend Posted on 23/06/2008 14:30
Renewable Energy

Who are carbon resolutions and what's their game?

Lisbonlegend Posted on 23/06/2008 14:39
Renewable Energy

And do you know of any CHP plants in Durham?

Rocky10 Posted on 23/06/2008 19:28
Renewable Energy

Lisbon don't know of any.

I work in Wetherby and deal with west yorkshire down over.

Would love to get some work up here then wouldn't have to spend half my life on the road.

who do you work for?

Rocky10 Posted on 23/06/2008 20:53
Renewable Energy

Carbon resolutions are a company that fund landfill improvements all over the world in return for carbon credits that they then sell on.

My boss met the prime minister of Austria and Cameroon a few months ago.

OPEO Posted on 23/06/2008 21:24
Renewable Energy

Sell carbon credits on? Sounds like that fookin bar full of freaks on star wars.

Dibzzz Posted on 23/06/2008 21:36
Renewable Energy

Sell carbon credits on.

Sounds like the easiest way to make money con ever!

Cleveleyssmoggie Posted on 24/06/2008 07:05
Renewable Energy

"The prime minister of Austria and Cameroon", he must clock up some air miles. [:D]

Lisbonlegend Posted on 24/06/2008 08:42
Renewable Energy

The Prime Minister of Austria and Cameroon? Next you'll be saying he met Bruce Willis.

Scottish & Southern Energy, Rocky. What's your qualifications in?

Buddy Posted on 24/06/2008 09:07
Renewable Energy

Lisbon. Pointage for the self-deprecating Bruce Willis quip, however you are now on trial as I have just signed up with your lot and you had better be good. That's "good", not just "better than British Gas".

Lisbonlegend Posted on 24/06/2008 09:58
Renewable Energy

I shall try my best for you Buddy.[:)] However, take note that I use EDF Energy.[;)]

Rocky10 Posted on 24/06/2008 13:38
Renewable Energy

Have a humble HNC in civils and a pass in a contract and tort law course I did at Leeds Uni.

What you got

Rocky10 Posted on 24/06/2008 14:05
Renewable Energy

huth

Lisbonlegend Posted on 24/06/2008 14:24
Renewable Energy

Is civils, civil engineering by any chance?

ONC in Chemistry
HNC in chemistry
BSc (Hons) in chemistry

All done part time though so i missed the exciting parts of University and got the crap bits.

Rocky10 Posted on 24/06/2008 14:41
Renewable Energy

Yes civil Engineering done at Teesside Poly - sorry University 1993

ONC from Redcar Tech College 1991

Currently in charge of 20 Engineers building landfill throughout Yorkshire Midlands and Lancashire.

Good steady living our house building/ brownfield remediation arm is about to lay people off.

Lisbonlegend Posted on 24/06/2008 14:43
Renewable Energy

My brother's a civil engineer, works for Costain.

Do you have a company website or info as I wouldn't mind knowing the ins and outs of landfilling.

Rocky10 Posted on 24/06/2008 14:47
Renewable Energy

Here you go - not too much in depth I'm afraid


Link: ENCIA

Lisbonlegend Posted on 24/06/2008 14:49
Renewable Energy

Ha, this one's a good article. My first ever away ground watching the Boro.[:)]


Link: Here...

Rocky10 Posted on 24/06/2008 14:51
Renewable Energy

Worked in Hull for 4 years on the Victoria dock redevelopement seen the stiffs play many a time a Boothferry Pk

ridsdale Posted on 24/06/2008 14:55
Renewable Energy

ONC in Chemistry
HNC in chemistry
BSc (Hons) in chemistry


Brilliant achievement to have done all that on a part time base Lisbon.

You deserve your success. And to be a role model to others.

Rocky10 Posted on 24/06/2008 14:57
Renewable Energy

Gather you have history on this board Lisbon?

Lisbonlegend Posted on 24/06/2008 15:01
Renewable Energy

My parents are from Hull and my dad played a few games for them before he moved to ICI for the money. What do you mean by history, Rocky?[:)]

Thankyou Ridsdale.

ridsdale Posted on 24/06/2008 15:05
Renewable Energy

Always ready to congratulate those who have worked hard to get where they are. Pink Ponce is another example.

Rocky10 Posted on 24/06/2008 15:11
Renewable Energy

I thought Ridsdale's comment was a touch sarcastic.

I was going to do a open uni waste management degree - then I was told it would take 5 years and I would have to commit at least 15 hours a week to it - i went for the law course instead.

ridsdale Posted on 24/06/2008 15:14
Renewable Energy

Not sarcastic in the least. To study at that level part time takes a lot of effort and dedication. Must have took years to complete all that part time. My brother spent 5 or 6 years doing an Open University degree.

I admire those who work hard at their education.

Rocky10 Posted on 24/06/2008 15:17
Renewable Energy

My apologies - Ridsdale

ridsdale Posted on 24/06/2008 15:18
Renewable Energy

Not required.

Lisbonlegend Posted on 24/06/2008 16:45
Renewable Energy

It took me 8 years and ruined my previous relationship.

ridsdale Posted on 24/06/2008 16:48
Renewable Energy

Well you are certainly making up for all those dull years of hard study now Lisbon.

Well worth the effort. Others should try it.

Lisbonlegend Posted on 24/06/2008 16:55
Renewable Energy

Did you do any studying, Ridders?

ridsdale Posted on 24/06/2008 16:58
Renewable Energy

Done a little bit during my apprenticeship, enough to do the job and then gave up.

Done a bit more since but to no high level.

I've been thinking of taking education up again but I have no idea what I would like to do really.

I fancy geology. Any ideas?

Lisbonlegend Posted on 24/06/2008 17:00
Renewable Energy

What's your apprenticeship in? I left college cos I just wanted to get drunk but realised I would end up in a rubbish job if I didn't knuckle down. It took me a while to work that out though as drinking is more fun.

Do physiotherapy and get a job at a netball team.

Rocky10 Posted on 24/06/2008 17:22
Renewable Energy

Rids geology's great - really give you a perspective on how it took to get where we are at now and also how short a time it has taken us to fook it all up.

Can be boring at times but worth it, Lisbon also worked as ageotechnical Engineer for most of my working life.

ridsdale Posted on 24/06/2008 17:26
Renewable Energy

Yes, I watched that Story of earth thing on telly, astounding.

I just don't like the language used to describe the different layers of Earth and time.

How the fook did they come up with obscure names?

Lisbonlegend Posted on 24/06/2008 17:29
Renewable Energy

I did A-Level geography and touched on geology which I found quite interesting.

Rocky, I take it that comes in handy when dealing with landfill sites then. Was just looking at some of the PDF case studies on your website.

Rocky10 Posted on 24/06/2008 17:55
Renewable Energy

The Skelton Grange landfill site was my biggest job to date2.5 km of road weighbridge site offices big MRF 500,000m3 muckshift and a cell lining works with everything included.

Felt like I was Resident Eng, quality en, contractor's foreman, surveyor and ta boy on that job.

That aged me 10 years that job alone.

I would get to work about 6 and have a cup of coffee by the time you knew it - it was 3 in the afternoon.

ridsdale Posted on 24/06/2008 17:56
Renewable Energy

So, you make big holes in the ground Rocky?

Lisbonlegend Posted on 24/06/2008 18:06
Renewable Energy

Yes, he makes big holes so we can fill them in again.

Rocky10 Posted on 24/06/2008 18:07
Renewable Energy

Very big and then we fill them with shyte and cap them over.

Tell ya this industry will survive the rigours of any economic slowdown because it has to.

People will still be throwing rubbish away; plus the stuff Lisbon's on about is a huge growth market with schemes and investment in place to ride out any finacial crisis

ridsdale Posted on 24/06/2008 18:08
Renewable Energy

Big holes, the future.


I'll look into that.

Lisbonlegend Posted on 24/06/2008 18:09
Renewable Energy

Our industry has gone bonkers which is why I've gone from a pants job to being very important in a very short space of time. I've more than doubled my wage in 3 years and I never thought that would happen after no pay rises in 2 years. I suppose it's just being in the right place at the right time.

So apart from landfill, do you deal in EFW plants, Rocky?

ridsdale Posted on 24/06/2008 18:13
Renewable Energy

"I suppose it's just being in the right place in the right time."

Hard work and study as well mate.



Alternative energy is the future I have no doubt.

I am working on a plan for macro offshore nuclear generators, a bit like the ones on nuclear subs, tethered offshore for safety and cooling. Very exciting.

Lisbonlegend Posted on 24/06/2008 18:14
Renewable Energy

Really Ridders? That sounds pretty good to be honest, have you had previous experience of nuclear generators?

ridsdale Posted on 24/06/2008 18:18
Renewable Energy

No. I have only got as far as a sketch on a pad.

Then I have to raise about 7 billion pounds.


But you have to say the idea is perfect. Proven technology, assured safety and clusters of small nuclear generators that are containable.

I'm working on my presentation for the The Dragons Den.

Lisbonlegend Posted on 24/06/2008 18:21
Renewable Energy

From small seeds grow great oak trees. It's a good idea, I might steal it as wind farms are boring.

Rocky10 Posted on 24/06/2008 18:22
Renewable Energy

Lisbon no real experience in EFW but have taken in a lot of Design review meeting and presentations by the boss.

My involvement will come in the construction phases Quality assurance n all that.

We hav e a few other exciting growth areas at mo that should sustain e till my old age Nuclear power station decommisioning!

ridsdale Posted on 24/06/2008 18:23
Renewable Energy

You can have my idea as long as I get a decent cut.

I need real brains on the job anyway.

It is a mint idea and workable. The first ones would be between Whitby and Saltburn.

Lisbonlegend Posted on 24/06/2008 18:28
Renewable Energy

I'm currently doing feasibility studies for SSE to invest half a billion pounds in EFW. I hope I get it right, no pressure mind.

So how would you construct an EFW plant then Rocky?

Ridders, Do you think you would get planning permission in Whitby and Saltbrun?

ridsdale Posted on 24/06/2008 18:33
Renewable Energy

Wouldn't need planning permission for off-shore undersea installations. Keep them away from main shipping lines is all that is required.

Anyway, the jobs resulting will sweep aside any stupid council objections.

Greenpeace, Friends of the Earth and littlejimmy might have to be 'persuaded'.

Lisbonlegend Posted on 24/06/2008 18:35
Renewable Energy

I see, you didn't say that they were underwater initially or have they just moved? How long do you think you will take to get government approval?

Rocky10 Posted on 24/06/2008 18:36
Renewable Energy

My gaffer may be able to help with your feasability study!

Lisbonlegend Posted on 24/06/2008 18:37
Renewable Energy

What do you think the effect would be of an underwater nuclear explosion then. Tsunamis and claret everywhere.

Lisbonlegend Posted on 24/06/2008 18:38
Renewable Energy

Really Rocky. Has he got good knowledge of the waste indutry and potential fuels then?

Rocky10 Posted on 24/06/2008 18:39
Renewable Energy

Is that how you create claret a tactical nuclear explosion under water.

Do you think thats how Jesus did it?

Lisbonlegend Posted on 24/06/2008 18:40
Renewable Energy

Yes, I suspect Jesus used a herd of goats under water and a nailbomb to recreate the effect.

Rocky10 Posted on 24/06/2008 18:43
Renewable Energy

They have heavily involved with one of the leading market players for the last 2 years now.

Apparently he knows everything from planning, land procurement and the actual process involved you should meet him - although I warn you he will want something out of it!

ridsdale Posted on 24/06/2008 18:43
Renewable Energy

Being small reactors they would be containable, cooling would not be a problem which is where failure usually occurs.

Located where I suggest would mean easy connection to a main switch, say at Wilton and a reasonable transmission length and capability, say a 66kv cable.


The government are gagging for new ideas, they would love a new line in nuclear generation.

Lisbonlegend Posted on 24/06/2008 18:44
Renewable Energy

Rocky, Email me at scuzzlebut69@hotmail.com and I'll email you my real email address rather than sticking it all on here.

No doubt he will do, don't we all!

Lisbonlegend Posted on 24/06/2008 18:46
Renewable Energy

Ridders, do you work at Hartlepool Power Station?

ridsdale Posted on 24/06/2008 18:49
Renewable Energy

No, I think that place is dangerous. The future is more, smaller plants.


Remember not to tell your boss about this or he will pinch our idea.

Lisbonlegend Posted on 24/06/2008 18:51
Renewable Energy

Nuclear takes too long to get the go ahead and by then we'll be screwed.

Lisbonlegend Posted on 24/06/2008 18:52
Renewable Energy

Off to the gym and to build a nuclear reactor.

Rocky10 Posted on 24/06/2008 18:57
Renewable Energy

Leaving ny desk and going home.

Lisbonlegend Posted on 24/06/2008 18:59
Renewable Energy

Just replied to your email. Have a good evening!

ridsdale Posted on 24/06/2008 19:00
Renewable Energy

One way or another we will be using more nuclear. Whether they are the mammoth old fashioned ones that take years of planning and construction, or my adaption of proven, mature technology used in an ingenious way, remains to be seen.

Get your calculators out lads.

Cleveleyssmoggie Posted on 24/06/2008 20:09
Renewable Energy

Offshore Nuclear ain't ever going to happen, too many security issues.


Plus those pesky fish will launch a petition against it.

Esekiel1517 Posted on 24/06/2008 20:14
Renewable Energy

You,being Boro,were the forefront of Iron,why shouldnt you be the forefront of renewable energy?

Nuclear power is the way forward.

Rocky10 Posted on 24/06/2008 20:57
Renewable Energy

Lisbon speak to you tomorrow as I can't pick my e-mail up for some reason at home.

ridsdale Posted on 24/06/2008 21:00
Renewable Energy

I can't think of anything much more secure than something tethered out at sea, far more secure than a land based plant.

Remember we are talking very small units.

And yes, we should be at the forefront of new ideas.


Like the best ideas, thought up by a man in a shed, except I don't even have a shed.

borolad259 Posted on 24/06/2008 21:11
Renewable Energy

A good way of making an impact in a small way is to get all your electricity from GoodEnergy. It's 100% from renewables, and they invest profits in new renewable schemes.

Lisbonlegend Posted on 25/06/2008 08:46
Renewable Energy

Is goodenergy cheap and reliable though? Whereabouts are these new renewable schemes?

ridsdale Posted on 25/06/2008 10:17
Renewable Energy

Good morning fellow engineers.

What is the latest on power generation?

Lisbonlegend Posted on 25/06/2008 10:19
Renewable Energy

Esekiel, Energy from waste is the way forward.[;)]

ridsdale Posted on 25/06/2008 10:22
Renewable Energy

You really are a clever man Lisbon.


Nice to meet someone on here with real life useful skills.

Instead of the usual clerical types.

Lisbonlegend Posted on 25/06/2008 10:29
Renewable Energy

Thankyou ridders, you're pretty sharp yourself, if not a little psychotic.

ridsdale Posted on 25/06/2008 10:31
Renewable Energy

Inventers can be a tad psychotic.

Lisbonlegend Posted on 25/06/2008 10:35
Renewable Energy

Like who?

ridsdale Posted on 25/06/2008 10:38
Renewable Energy

Me. And the bloke who invented the clockwork radio.

Lisbonlegend Posted on 25/06/2008 10:40
Renewable Energy

Was he an arab?

Rocky10 Posted on 25/06/2008 11:18
Renewable Energy

Heading for a ton - well done eveyone

Lisbonlegend Posted on 25/06/2008 11:19
Renewable Energy

Morning Rocky, what does the day have in store for you then?

Rocky10 Posted on 25/06/2008 11:24
Renewable Energy

Sat writing and compiling a 5,000 (double sided) page Validation report, for a Landfill Cell in Castleford; have been on this for last 2 weeks.

Checking, chasing, checking, chasing and writing text - nightmare.

Glad I'm off, playing golf all next week.

Lisbonlegend Posted on 25/06/2008 11:25
Renewable Energy

I'm just starting my feasibility report on EFW fuels. Got a month to write it. JOY.

Rocky10 Posted on 25/06/2008 11:30
Renewable Energy

How in depth are going with this feasibility study, layouts and planning consideration; or is it just he process side and availibility of fuel.

Mark my words I can see the day when we are back into the landfill sites - waste mining as a potential source of fuel for EFW.

Lisbonlegend Posted on 25/06/2008 11:38
Renewable Energy

I'm doing the fuel report and have some involvement with the engineering report which is going on aswell.

LOL. Maybe you should start storing it in your back garden and wait until the value rockets.

littlejimmy Posted on 25/06/2008 11:40
Renewable Energy

Serious (and possibly stupid) question about EfW - what happens to all the nasty, poisonous and dirty crap that is a by-product of burning the waste? Is it scrubbed out somehow?

Lisbonlegend Posted on 25/06/2008 11:43
Renewable Energy

The short answer is yes. Processing prior to thermal treatment takes out a lot of the crap and then additives such as ultralime and PAC remove the heavy metals and dioxins plus filter bags for the dust.

littlejimmy Posted on 25/06/2008 11:48
Renewable Energy

Nice. Does it have a good EROEI rate?

Lisbonlegend Posted on 25/06/2008 11:51
Renewable Energy

It's reasonable but not as good as gas obviously. The money is made through us being paid to take the fuel in the first place plus the money we receive for the energy generated. A double pay load if you like.

Rocky10 Posted on 25/06/2008 11:52
Renewable Energy

Spot on Lisbon

Lisbonlegend Posted on 25/06/2008 11:57
Renewable Energy

Are you thinking of building one, lj?

ridsdale Posted on 25/06/2008 12:02
Renewable Energy

I don't fancy burning rubbish for energy. Think of all the mercury, lead and other nasty metals alone from electronics.

Nuclear is cleaner.

Lisbonlegend Posted on 25/06/2008 12:03
Renewable Energy

We don't burn electronics.

ridsdale Posted on 25/06/2008 12:06
Renewable Energy

How do they seperate the batteries and discarded electronics from the rubbish they burn?

littlejimmy Posted on 25/06/2008 12:09
Renewable Energy

Big magnets?

Nuclear is probably one of our only practical options right now, combined with things like EfW, wind, solar, geothermic and wave power. Still, the nuclear waste has to go somewhere, and that's the biggest problem with it. And then there's the limited supply of uranium and the costs of extraction...

Lisbonlegend Posted on 25/06/2008 12:09
Renewable Energy

There are many different waste streams including treated clinical waste, Papermill process rejects, sewage sludge, Fibre Fuel, SRF, etc and these are all processed prior to thermal treatment. So if there's anything in that shouldn't be there won't be much left at the end.

Lisbonlegend Posted on 25/06/2008 12:14
Renewable Energy

Jimmy, what's your trade?

littlejimmy Posted on 25/06/2008 12:18
Renewable Energy

I'm a Quantity Surveyor / Cost Manager / Contracts Manager, but I can be whatever you want me to be.

Lisbonlegend Posted on 25/06/2008 12:20
Renewable Energy

Like Mr Benn?

littlejimmy Posted on 25/06/2008 12:21
Renewable Energy

Possibly, but more rotund. Why do you ask?

Lisbonlegend Posted on 25/06/2008 12:22
Renewable Energy

Just wondered if you'd worked in the energy industry before.

littlejimmy Posted on 25/06/2008 12:24
Renewable Energy

Not directly, although I just finished working on an Effluent Treatment Plant that is connected to Shell's new GTL plant here in Qatar. I also take a passing interest in energy matters.

Lisbonlegend Posted on 25/06/2008 15:41
Renewable Energy

Would you like to build me an eenergy from waste plant.

ridsdale Posted on 25/06/2008 15:42
Renewable Energy

I want that viability study on my offshore nuclear units on my desk by Friday 3:00 pm.

littlejimmy Posted on 25/06/2008 15:43
Renewable Energy

I'd love to. Design and Build?

ridsdale Posted on 25/06/2008 15:45
Renewable Energy

Jimmy, you are just a QS. Lisbon on the other hand is a properly qualified engineer.


A real man.

littlejimmy Posted on 25/06/2008 15:47
Renewable Energy

Ponce is also a QS, but you like rimming him as well.

I read that guff about admiring people who did qualifications over a long period. I did my QS training over 6 or 7 years. Do I earn your admiration for that, or is there more chance of hell freezing over?

[:)]

You're just patronising them anyway.

Lisbonlegend Posted on 25/06/2008 15:52
Renewable Energy

Patronising or not, I'm proud of the graft I put in to get my qualifications and a decent career. I'd challenge anyone to do what I did as it was no easy ride.

Critical_Bill Posted on 25/06/2008 15:54
Renewable Energy

Part-time study is a lot easier if your comapny is paying for your courses.

Lisbonlegend Posted on 25/06/2008 15:55
Renewable Energy

How do you work that one out?

littlejimmy Posted on 25/06/2008 15:56
Renewable Energy

Five years of day-release in Newcastle was basically a relief to get finished.

ridsdale Posted on 25/06/2008 15:58
Renewable Energy

"I did my QS training over 6 or 7 years"

Very well done Jimmy, a marvelous effort and achievement.
Few are willing to apply themselves thus.
You are a credit to your parents.

Ponce deserves plaudits for working his way out of Whinney Banks.

However, a real engineer beats a QS anyday.

littlejimmy Posted on 25/06/2008 15:59
Renewable Energy

OK. I can live with that.

Next.

ridsdale Posted on 25/06/2008 16:05
Renewable Energy

That didn't hurt did it Jimmy?

Lisbonlegend Posted on 25/06/2008 16:05
Renewable Energy

What is a quantity surveyor anyway. Someone that watches and counts?

ridsdale Posted on 25/06/2008 16:08
Renewable Energy

I would have that that QS is something you could learn from a correspondence course.

Rocky10 Posted on 25/06/2008 16:09
Renewable Energy

All cnuts in my experience

littlejimmy Posted on 25/06/2008 16:12
Renewable Energy

I don't know. Ask Ponce.

ridsdale Posted on 25/06/2008 16:15
Renewable Energy

Looks easy to me.


Link: QS

Critical_Bill Posted on 25/06/2008 16:20
Renewable Energy

Lisbon, being paid to study is every students dream. It'd make them knuckle down properly too.

Lisbonlegend Posted on 25/06/2008 16:21
Renewable Energy

It would be if you didn't have to work at the same time and cram all your weeks hours into one day and use all your holidays to study for your exams.

Critical_Bill Posted on 25/06/2008 16:22
Renewable Energy

Blah fuqn blah.

Many people have done the day release gig.

ridsdale Posted on 25/06/2008 16:24
Renewable Energy

"Many people have done the day release gig."

Maybe to City and Guilds or ONC, not many do 8 years to get a degree.

Do find it in your soul to give someone credit Bill.


littlejimmy Posted on 25/06/2008 16:26
Renewable Energy

QSing has a Royal Charter, don't you know?

To be fair, it's not overly taxing unless you get into the contractual nitty-gritty stuff.

Lisbonlegend Posted on 25/06/2008 16:30
Renewable Energy

"Blah fuqn blah.

Many people have done the day release gig."

Maybe Bill and I respect them for that but like Ridsdale said, 8 years is a long time to do that and I was also doing shift work during this period. It was hard work and as you obviously haven't done it you wouldn't know.