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onthemap Posted on 19/06/2008 20:48
Our main failing as a club

Deluded fans.

ridsdale Posted on 19/06/2008 20:50
Our main failing as a club

Easy, shoot the F*****s then.

There isn't many of them anyway.

CrazyL Posted on 19/06/2008 20:50
Our main failing as a club

We give too much of our tactical information away to opponents via this message board. They all know who we are trying to sign, what our team and formation are going to be and where all of our weak links are.

LemmyKilmister Posted on 19/06/2008 20:51
Our main failing as a club

You are JohnAnderson and I claim my £10

onthemap Posted on 19/06/2008 20:51
Our main failing as a club

Anyone would think the team was stronger than last seasons.

JohnAnderson Posted on 19/06/2008 21:11
Our main failing as a club

Some people do, I had an dissagreement with someone over why Boro will get battered off of Spurs.

I claimed you were poor in midfield and attack last season, and you are now weaker with the loss of a keeper and midfield players, and your defence is weaker that last season with Woodgate gone, and Wheater going to suffer from 2nd season syndrome as all young players do. They claimed you are stronger now than you were last preseason.

I think your the 3rd weakest squad in the prem after Hull and Stoke, with 2 or 3 gems(and not very valuable ones) swimming in a sea of S***, but many of your fans are happy with the state you find yourself in.

bubbles Posted on 19/06/2008 21:26
Our main failing as a club

"and you are now weaker with the loss of a keeper and midfield players"

Of course we wont sign anyone to replace those players will we?

LemmyKilmister Posted on 19/06/2008 21:30
Our main failing as a club

Weird eh?
Speak of the devil and he shall appear.

Like I'm surprised.

Mappy...are you really JohnAnderson?? At the end of the day, you moreorless say the same stuff.

JohnAnderson Posted on 19/06/2008 21:35
Our main failing as a club

no one of quality, dont have the funds or attraction to do so

AfonsoAlvesAnonymous Posted on 19/06/2008 21:41
Our main failing as a club

I reckon we've probably got a better squad than Sunderland, Bolton and maybe West Brom. As well as Hull and Stoke. Do think we need a new keeper though, but looks like Turnbull's going to get his game. I refuse to believe he'll pick Jones, he's played in front of him he must know how gash he is!

Tibetan Posted on 19/06/2008 21:48
Our main failing as a club

We attracted Alves fairly recently who will outscore any given geordie striker next season.

Warwick_Hunt Posted on 19/06/2008 21:50
Our main failing as a club

Crap pies and lager at half time.

Adi_Dem Posted on 19/06/2008 21:51
Our main failing as a club

Mappie, last season your main criticisms of the team were:

1. Not enough goals.

We have now added Alves, released DGL and Mido is coming to full fitness. If you are right that Mido and Alves will get us the goals then surely we are better off up front? With Aliadiere and Tuncay backing those two up then surely that is an improvement?

2. Poor central midfield, in particular Rochemback.

Rochemback has been released. It is evident that we are going to bring in a replacement and add players to the midfield. On that basis, it is not deluded to argue that we may improve in that area.

What you are essentially arguing is that fans praising Southgate taking action to correct the weaknesses in the team you were criticising him for all of last season are deluded.

I must admit mappie, even for you, that is stunning.

ccole Posted on 19/06/2008 21:53
Our main failing as a club

The enemies within

the_hagbard_elite Posted on 19/06/2008 21:58
Our main failing as a club

otm

i don't even read your posts and i wouldn't dream of replying to them.

i certainly wouldn't say it was daft to blame optimistic fans for last seasons performances.

it wouldn't enter my head to suggest that you get kick out of fishing for responses and then laughing at the smoggies.

"what's the point to you and your life?" i definitely didn't finish my post with.

Tom_Fun Posted on 19/06/2008 22:17
Our main failing as a club

"Some people do, I had an dissagreement with someone over why Boro will get battered off of Spurs"

I'm sorry, but that is just awful grammar. Shame on you.

zaphod Posted on 20/06/2008 04:53
Our main failing as a club

"We give too much of our tactical information away to opponents via this message board. They all know who we are trying to sign, what our team and formation are going to be and where all of our weak links are."

The funniest thing posted this year! There is hardly any agreement on here about anything (except Dong-Gook) & most comments are hilariously wide of the mark. In the past few years, the main "inside info" has been that Downing is useless. Anyone who bases their tactics on what this board says would be doomed!

br14 Posted on 20/06/2008 05:19
Our main failing as a club

the_hagbard_elite wins this weeks prize for most obvious liar:

"i don't even read your posts and i wouldn't dream of replying to them." [;)]

OTM is a hardened and cynical Boro pessimist who sadly is generally fairly close to the mark even if we hate to admit it.

On this occasion I disagree. Boro fans are not deluded, we're simply perennial optimists who want to believe.

It's all part of the cycle of optimism and despair that reminds us we're alive.

By the way zaphod, I though DGL was given a raw deal and never given the chance to shine. [:P]

Timboi Posted on 20/06/2008 06:10
Our main failing as a club

br14 - I don't have alot of face to face time with any other Boro fans but if this board is any sort of indicator, I don't think 'optimist' is a word I use to describe Boro fans - 'bitter' and 'cynical' seems more appropriate much of the time.
As for our squad, I doubt it's going to stay exactly as it is for the coming season. I'd be extremely surprised if we don't get another couple of midfielders (on top of Digard, assuming we've got him). Then people can start judging our 'current squad'. I'd also be surprised if we didn't go for a keeper.
If our keepers are as bad as somethink they are and Gareth doesn't get in a new no.1 I'll admit he's not right man for the job.

Holgateoldskool Posted on 20/06/2008 07:45
Our main failing as a club

Ah Mr Anderson - your post the other day you seem to remember? I seem to remember when I dismantled your "thoughts" and assumptions point by point your response was .....nothing!Yet you come on here as if you have some sort of cyber victory - the truth is you ran away because your post was shown up for what it was - complete and utter crap.

Dream on fool.

Holgateoldskool Posted on 20/06/2008 09:07
Our main failing as a club

Mappy, you are right of course. It is a bitter pill for a lot on here to swallow that we can't compete in the transfer market,have lower ambitions,less quality at the club. But neverthe less to comment against any of this you are negative, a moaner,whinger etc etc.

After 11 years in the top flight we should be set fair - yet the prospect of another season of transition looms.......

Adi_Dem Posted on 20/06/2008 09:15
Our main failing as a club

A bitter pill for a lot on here to swallow? Laughable. It's as if you believe that your view is the realistic one in the face of all us poor naive souls who see the positive aspects of what Boro are trying to do. What mappie finds difficult to accept (and I suspect you are the same) is that even though I don't rate GAreth I am prepared to give him credit where I feel it is due. I am also able to criticise and praise the club generally when it is warranted. So don't kid yourself that in order to be realistic you have to be downright negative and accept all that you have said.

I'll tell you something, if we continue to underachieve and do as badly as we have over the last 12 years then that'll do for me. If lacking ambition means spending £12m on a striker then bring it on, if it means bringing through the likes of Downing and Wheater then give me some more, if it means regular Cup Final appearances, trips into Europe and mid-table finishes then so be it.

It really annoys me that anyone posting anything remotely positive or daring to disagree with someone's overly criticial and overly negative view is deemed a naive rara who will find the truth difficult to swallow. It's nonsense. Having said that, at least it's better than reading PinkPonce's vast array of rubbish. But only just!

skiprat Posted on 20/06/2008 09:17
Our main failing as a club

"Deluded fans"

The ones that think we should be top 6 every season?

zzzzz Posted on 20/06/2008 09:19
Our main failing as a club

Spot on Adi.

I've said again and again we punch above our weight.
If the likes of mappy want regular euro football, cup finals and trophys fk off to Utd or Chelsea.

85 million in debt tells you all about our lack of ambition.

Holgateoldskool Posted on 20/06/2008 09:22
Our main failing as a club

All good chest beating Scoea - but just examine the facts.Are we any better now than we were when we returned to the Prem?Are we replacing quality with quality(Yak,Dukes,Woody,Skippy) - Alves the exception.

The success you talk about is in the history books - it's today that counts.With the clubs indebtedness, a falling fan base - excuse me for not hanging out the flags.

All I am saying is the reality check that Lamb advised us on is here- my view is that it could have been so different if we had used the UEFA Cup run to this positive(something you like)effect that could have benefitted us.

Thats all!

onthemap Posted on 20/06/2008 09:32
Our main failing as a club

Adi
One day you'll realise that not all the opinion on here is directed at you.
But you really should S*** or get off the pot, in short grow a pair, the guys failed,
You'll still get people reading your posts if you ever manage to admit it.

I could add that your hero eventually agreed with me over Rocky, but then you'd say that I was simply saying "I told you so......"

Oh and as long as Ali is in the side we will struggle to score goals - unless you think we should have 6 up front or something.

sheriff_john_bunnell Posted on 20/06/2008 09:41
Our main failing as a club

personally i think the current delusion over our predicament is down to the stick folk gave mcClaren when we were winning. people need consistancy in their views and so despite what happens on the pitch they continue to trot out the nonsence that southgate has shown all the qualities of making a great manager, and that things are so much better now than when we were papering over the cracks by winning trophys and being in Europe and stuff.
Anyhow things arent that bad. There are 5 or 6 teams worse than us. definetely in worse shape than last year though. A fit mido and alves do not make up for the loss of Rocky and an unfounded faith in turnbull and jones. still time to go in the transfer window though.

pierrequiroule Posted on 20/06/2008 09:47
Our main failing as a club

Spot on post by scoea - who I've probably had more run-ins with than anyone on here - before I'm accused of being a rara. Mappy, I stopped opening your posts months ago (as I did with scoea coincidentally) but curiosity got the better of me today, and I was right, nothing's changed, you're still banging the same drum. What a sad bügger.

onthemap Posted on 20/06/2008 10:07
Our main failing as a club

Well Pierre I'm truly saddened by the tone of your post, please terminate our contract forthwith.

Adi_Dem Posted on 20/06/2008 10:08
Our main failing as a club

Mappie, I don't think I ever suggested that this thread was aimed at me did I? All I did was reply to a post on a public messageboard.

I guess you also missed the part where I said that I don't rate Southgate? What you're on about in terms of getting off the pot is your own business.

If I am right in assuming that my hero is Southgate (though quite why you would post that is beyond me) I wouldn't crow too much about him agreeing with you regarding Rocky. What is quite amusing though is that you tell me to get off the pot when I give Southgate praise even though my overall view of him remains a negative one and yet you use one of Southgate's decisions to prove that you were right. Is that really any different? You need to get off the pot my friend. According to you you cannot hold a negative view of the manager and still praise some of his decisions. It's black and white isn't it?

Pierre - out of interest, can I ask why you stopped opening my posts? It's not a problem, I'm just interested.

onthemap Posted on 20/06/2008 10:20
Our main failing as a club

You boys are going to have so much humble pie to eat when we appoint Glenn Hoddle at Christmas.

wilkos_perm Posted on 20/06/2008 10:32
Our main failing as a club

our main failing is having fans who's main contribution is negativity. Yes that's negativity, not realism.

onthemap Posted on 20/06/2008 10:35
Our main failing as a club

Realism being that Southgates doing a terrific job eh? Like I said - deluded.

zaphod Posted on 20/06/2008 11:03
Our main failing as a club

Our biggest problems as a club are:

(1) Smallish fan base, so not financially strong
(2) Unattractive part of the country for footballers & WAGs
(3) Pro-English stance, which limits choice of managers & players to some extent (but I support this).

wilkos_perm Posted on 20/06/2008 11:40
Our main failing as a club

i can't say i've often heard people say he's doing a 'terrific job'.

most people on here seem to have the ability to recognise positives and negatives.

bernieisgod Posted on 20/06/2008 11:41
Our main failing as a club

"i can't say i've often heard people say he's doing a 'terrific job'.

most people on here seem to have the ability to recognise positives and negatives."

Exactly wilko - I think Southgate has done pretty well and will do very well but I recognise he has areas he needs to improve on (e.g. he now recognises he was picking players on reputation notform)

the_hagbard_elite Posted on 20/06/2008 11:46
Our main failing as a club

otm

you are not a fan or supporter (of boro anyway)

you could still have discussions with people on this board even if you admitted who you do support, everyones really forgiving like that in boro. you should go there sometime.


onthemap Posted on 20/06/2008 11:51
Our main failing as a club

I was supporting this club when you were filling your pampers boy.

wilkos_perm Posted on 20/06/2008 11:52
Our main failing as a club

so when did you stop supporting them?

bernieisgod Posted on 20/06/2008 11:55
Our main failing as a club

mappy - you do come across like you don't sometimes though - it would be easy to suspect that you don't at those times. I know we do get carried away sometimes and think we (Boro) can be the greatest but I prefer optimism to pessimism!

onthemap Posted on 20/06/2008 11:56
Our main failing as a club

Well I've only got one season ticket now, so if that means I'm not supporting them then I'm in a pretty big club of non supporters eh?

I argue on here with true supporters who've never spent a penny on the club.

onthemap Posted on 20/06/2008 11:58
Our main failing as a club

There's support and there's deluded support - which is the main point of the thread.

bernieisgod Posted on 20/06/2008 11:59
Our main failing as a club

"There's support and there's deluded support - which is the main point of the thread."

I get your point mappy - it's just that it's a fine line between reality and negativity!

wilkos_perm Posted on 20/06/2008 11:59
Our main failing as a club

but if anything the general Boro fan is far from deluded.

onthemap Posted on 20/06/2008 12:01
Our main failing as a club

I dread to think what has to happen to the club before the 'positive' supporters change their views.

bernieisgod Posted on 20/06/2008 12:04
Our main failing as a club

reality check time - we are an established premier league club - we have had fantastic cup success over the last 12 years, we have won something!! (never ever thought that would happen) and we have continued to buy good players.
for a small town we ain't doing so bad!!!

onthemap Posted on 20/06/2008 12:06
Our main failing as a club

bernie
I agree, which is why I'm arguing that Southgate shouldn't be allowed to ruin it.

bernieisgod Posted on 20/06/2008 12:07
Our main failing as a club

Fair enough - we will have to agree to disagree on Southgate for now - hope I'm proven right about believing in him!

skiprat Posted on 20/06/2008 12:08
Our main failing as a club

The only one that's deluded here is you mappy, as usual.

I've never read anyone on here post that Southgate is doing a terrific job yet you continually make this up to try and hammer your bollox points across.

You'd find that a lot more people would agree with what you say, because there's truth in some of it if you didn't then make up stuff to sit alongside it.

My main gripe though is how Southgate can be deemed a failure when he's basically doing what his predecessors have done in the league. McClaren's one 7th came after his first two years, which is all you can compare with regarding Southgate.

So have they all failed? Or is midtable usually the point we reach, if anything Southgate is doing better to keep us at midtable because of the enhanced finances of others that were traditionally below us.

bernieisgod Posted on 20/06/2008 12:09
Our main failing as a club

spot on skiprat - too early to judge southgate and the finances everyone has now makes it a lot harder!

onthemap Posted on 20/06/2008 12:10
Our main failing as a club

skiprat
I take it you weren't supporting them when we won a cup and were competing in Europe under Smac?
Other than that they've identical records in every respect.

Adi_Dem Posted on 20/06/2008 12:12
Our main failing as a club

Mappie, I challenge you to provide evidence of this delusion. Use me as an example if you wish. Tell me which of my views/opinions are delusional.

skiprat Posted on 20/06/2008 12:14
Our main failing as a club

This is exactly my point.

You're comparing McClaren's later squads and finances spent with Southgate's earlier seasons.

By all means if Southgate is still manager in a few seasons time and hasn't delivered then you can compare, but I still wouldn't call him a failure if he manages to maintain our league status and pushes us into the top ten and get's us on a few cup runs.

Was Rioch a failure?

onthemap Posted on 20/06/2008 12:17
Our main failing as a club

Adi
You continue to assume I'm talking about you - if the cap fits...

skiprat
How many seasons will you count as 'early'this is Southgates 3rd and we've gone backwards since he came.
Maybe you genuinely can't see it?

Adi_Dem Posted on 20/06/2008 12:19
Our main failing as a club

Erm, no I don't mappie, which is why I posted "Use me as an example if you wish."

You don't have to use me, anyone will do. Point me to the evidence that drew you to the conclusion that some fans are delusional.

That's twice I've asked now.

the_hagbard_elite Posted on 20/06/2008 12:20
Our main failing as a club

you are inferring you are older than me and therefore wiser.

you don't like it when we have a bad game, you don't like it when we have a good game, you have nothing positive to say, it seems you have yourself hemmed in to a world that really only leads to the down side of life.

but hey, that's your trip and i don't want to interfere with that. (it makes more sense to me that you are a geordie on a mission, in a perverse way i think you would be more balanced and happy if that were the case)

one thing i would say is that every boro fan i've ever met had a lot of respect for Gibson. you think that you know better than him and in my opinion, you definitely do not. he's a successful person in almost every aspect of that words meaning and most importantly comes across as quite a happy person.

you haven't even figured out in your long life how to be that (happy). You are therefore, (in my opinion) a failure. why should your opinion matter to anyone? you haven't even got the basics of your own life sorted out.

i won't be reading or partaking in any of your threads again, it is the road to negative emotions and unhappiness and has already forced me to make several judgements about you and that goes against my philosophy in life. I apologise for getting involved, the wise thing to do is to leave you well alone.

so long otm, good luck with your journey through life. may you live long enough to know some real joy and spread that joy to others you interact with.


wilkos_perm Posted on 20/06/2008 12:23
Our main failing as a club

We finished 14th in the last season under McClaren so we've stagnated, gone backwards - arguably not. I think people recognise the mistakes he's made but at the same time recognise the problems he's faced and how he has overcome some of the hurdles.

This season is a massive one for Southgate, everybody knows that, im not sure who the deluded people you talk about are. The only unbalanced opinions on this post appear to by written by yourself.

onthemap Posted on 20/06/2008 12:23
Our main failing as a club

the_hagbard_elite

I'm utterly and completely distraught.



skiprat Posted on 20/06/2008 12:25
Our main failing as a club

We've finished higher in the league in both of Southgate's seasons than McClaren's last.

If that is going backwards in your eyes then go ahead and think that. You don't show logic any other time so why stop now?

We've stagnated and been in midtable, which for our club is the expected position we'll be in.

I agree with you though, our problem is with deluded fans. Fans who think we should be pushing for the top 5 every season based on our fantastic support and finances.

onthemap Posted on 20/06/2008 12:26
Our main failing as a club

Was I deluded when I said Martin O Neill (the guy that got Villa into Europe) was the man for the job?

You lot told me Southgate would be far more successful.That's delusion.

wilkos_perm Posted on 20/06/2008 12:29
Our main failing as a club

that comparison just about shows the level of your intelligence.

They are managing different clubs with different finances and inherited different squads, yet you think a direct comparison is appropriate.

skiprat Posted on 20/06/2008 12:29
Our main failing as a club

"You lot told me Southgate would be far more successful.That's delusion."

Backed into a corner and resorting to making things up as always. You're an absolute joke.

Martin O'Neill would always do well at Villa, most managers would do once Lerner came in and finally gave them funds to push on.

Achilles Posted on 20/06/2008 12:32
Our main failing as a club

Onthemap posts the biggest pile of contradictory S***e I have ever read.

He bangs on about how we have not replaced all these top players, how we MUST have 2 strikers hitting 20 goals, how we have a right to be top 10 or top 8 and thinks we should be challenging for trophies year in year out.

And then he has the cheek to clim others are deluded.

Is it not deluded to expect final appearances, top strikers, top 10 finishes, Europe etc etc?

I'd explain how we are a small club from a small town with a small catchment area and.....but theres no point because he would probably make up a ridiculous lie.

skiprat Posted on 20/06/2008 12:33
Our main failing as a club

I find it funnier that because he can't come up with any comebacks when people show him he's wrong, he just changes subject.

Deluded indeed.

joebonano Posted on 20/06/2008 12:39
Our main failing as a club

Map- what's your view an McLaren's golden legacy which Southgate has had to slowly clear up.I'm talking about having to replace himself,Release Hasselbaink who was too old and most of all watch the clubs finances be bled dry by Parlour Ehiogu and Mendieta all big earners that were totally finished at the top level.

onthemap Posted on 20/06/2008 12:41
Our main failing as a club

Hoddle at Christmas - we both know it.

wilkos_perm Posted on 20/06/2008 12:52
Our main failing as a club

Glenn Hoddle - I didn't think you had a sense of humour Mappy but that is funny

ccole Posted on 20/06/2008 13:28
Our main failing as a club

The geordie of our board.

Deluded

fatsuma Posted on 20/06/2008 13:41
Our main failing as a club

I used to think that we don't boo our own players enough.

Now I realise that booing isn't the answer.

Although booing does urge the players to perform better and prove to the loyal faithful that they are worthy of our hard-earned, it is also really hard to do!

Firstly, booing for ten minutes at a time leave you short of breath.

Also if you want to boo the team at half-time it means you end up way too far back in the queue for the pies, the beers or to collect your winnings that we'd be losing at half-time.

Or - what happens if you Boo one of the few players that you're not supposed to?! You end up looking silly and feeling embarrassed!

AND - if you interrupt your 'Boo' with a hearty shout of "xxxxx, you're crap! Sod off back to yyyyy!!" (where xxxxx = player's name, and yyyyy = the club or rough geographical location of their birth) - you're lost! I mean do you just pick up with the "ooooooo" of "Booooooo" or do you return to the "B". If so, it sounds like a Yogi Bear calling for his mate BooBoo! That's just daft!


No, the real problem isn't that there's not enough booing, it's that there are far too many fans in the ground!

Gets the message across, without being mentally, physically and emotionally exhausted by the effort.

bernieisgod Posted on 20/06/2008 13:42
Our main failing as a club

careful you don't swallow ur tongue - it's so far in ur cheek there mate!

THEBOROBOSS Posted on 20/06/2008 13:54
Our main failing as a club

Mappy why to you go to the match if all you do is moan,Theres somethings i would change, but most if not all your Posts knock Middlesbrough F.C.


shaved_melon Posted on 20/06/2008 13:56
Our main failing as a club

well thats OTM range of arguments well dissected and completely obliterated

next...

Adi_Dem Posted on 20/06/2008 14:12
Our main failing as a club

Poor old mappie. Made to look silly on a regular basis.

skiprat Posted on 20/06/2008 14:14
Our main failing as a club

Considering who quickly he's on here to post after a defeat I doubt he goes to games anyway.

Blain87 Posted on 20/06/2008 14:14
Our main failing as a club

THEBOROBOSS,

He doesn't go to games. He has no real connection to the club anymore. His only contribution is a few hundred quid for a season ticket he gives to somebody else.

Holgateoldskool Posted on 20/06/2008 14:20
Our main failing as a club

Some of you are way off beam here.Here are the facts - according to Gareth it's OK to go into the season without a recognised keeper. We have no midfield (with the exception of Stewy).We were trying to get bodies in early - again according to Gareth - so far we've drawn a blank.We have one of the smallest squad in the prem.

Mappy can speak for himself - but his initial point was to expect too much is foolhardy - and he has a point. There are still some on here that feel a couple of signings will make us top 6/10 material - it will not.

Only those with wild red eyed optimism or those who haven't a clue(sorry for the dismissive terminology) would believe such things.

Adi_Dem Posted on 20/06/2008 14:26
Our main failing as a club

I think you're off beam actually holgate. Mappie started this thread by claiming that the club's biggest failing was its deluded fans. It has been proven beyond doubt that that simply isn't the case.

You state that those are the facts but they are seriously subjective, seriously tainted and seriously flawed.

Essentially, our current situation has as many positives as it does negatives. That is the lot of a mid-table club even though in our case we're one of the more successful mid-table clubs.

The difference is that those mappie considers to be deluded can see both whereas he (and you it seems) can only see the negatives. It appears that one cannot hold an overall negative view of Southgate whilst at the same time praising what he does well. It is one or the other, otherwise you're "on the pot".

ccole Posted on 20/06/2008 14:26
Our main failing as a club

What you have said is right, as ever Mr H.

Small squad, down on quality. While three of four other teams have signed one, and some even two players this summer, we are getting left behind again. With only 80 days left until the transfer window closes, things are looking rather desperate on Teesside.

I would take 17th posistion if it was offered now.

Holgateoldskool Posted on 20/06/2008 14:38
Our main failing as a club

So which of the facts do you disagree with? Size of squad? Goalkeeper position? Midfield?Quotes about the goalkeeping position from Gareth? Getting players in early - again quoted from Gareth? Because I would be really interested

And are you really telling me that all the threads put about how high Boro can finish have passed you by???

Come on, fella - the one thing you can't level at me is being economical with facts.

Adi_Dem Posted on 20/06/2008 14:43
Our main failing as a club

Not economical but selective. I didn't say I disagreed with you particularly. In fact you make some valid points. What I was pointing out was that they hardly reflect a balanced overview because you don't post any positives, you don't acknowledge that what Gareth has said publicly might not represent what he really thinks for example about the goalkeepers, you don't post that whilst wanting players in early Gareth has also said that it is difficult to do so, particularly with the Euros on, you don't mention that not many other clubs have made significant inroads in the transfer market.

Maybe I am unfairly lumping you in with mappie but I don't get any sense of balance with either of you.

Holgateoldskool Posted on 20/06/2008 14:51
Our main failing as a club

I have commented on the positives on issues - Alves, Downing,Wheater, Gibson to cite a few. However if as with anything you wish to improve you look at what is in need of addressing.(However they seem to have passed you by).

My view is there is plenty.I just get extremely frustrated by our actions/non actions at times.

If folk find that really offensive then sorry. I only want what is best for my club - and feel we are a long,long way from achieving that position.

Adi_Dem Posted on 20/06/2008 15:42
Our main failing as a club

YOu see, you've just proven my point. How has anything passed me by? I don't rate Southgate, I don't rate our keepers, I don't think we have anything like a competent midfield. As I say, maybe I have tarred you with the same brush as mappie but certainly he is incapable of seeing both sides of the coin.

otto62 Posted on 20/06/2008 16:29
Our main failing as a club

Holgate, I accept your apology. Now, please understand what an apology is, it means you intend not to reoffend. So, please don't do it again.

Holgateoldskool Posted on 20/06/2008 16:45
Our main failing as a club

What are you on about - not to reoffend???!!! I post what I like when I like how I like.

It's like being up before the beak/headmaster FFS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

bl4ckandwhitedreams Posted on 20/06/2008 16:50
Our main failing as a club

mappy- we always say it but your fans are Boro's biggest failing as a 'club'. Generally you (most of you) demand too much and moan one heck of a lot. Boo some of your better players, vanish 10 mins form the end REGULAR like and constantly barrack and bluster.

skiprat Posted on 20/06/2008 19:46
Our main failing as a club

Holgate - People aren't disagreeing with you for the sake of it, what they are saying is why are you wetting yourself so early?

Do you not think that there's a few reasons that players aren't signing? Perhaps a big tournament on over in Europe? Players on holiday? Agents on holiday?

If in 80 days time we've not signed someone then we'll all jump aboard the suicide bus but for now why not just chill the fook out and realise that it doesn't happen overnight and it certainly doesn't happen in June!

Holgateoldskool Posted on 21/06/2008 10:12
Our main failing as a club

I am not wetting myself - and it seems you have taken poetic license to say others have suggested it!

What I am mindful of is we lost Viduka,did not sign a replacementlost Yak ( who it seemed the whole fan base know he wasn't happy-the management certainly didnt.)Meaning our striking options-or lack of them nearly cost us.

With Rocky gone, Mendi gone, George claiming 50/50 chance of being here,Gary O supposedly unsettled for last years strikers situation see this years midfield.

We have a French guy whose transfer we seem unable to complete for whatever reason - so isn't the most laid back Boro fan a tad twitchy?

Thats all - I need to change my Calvin Kleins........

Jonny_Ingbar Posted on 21/06/2008 10:22
Our main failing as a club

Fook me I actually agree with one of OTM threads - I feel dirty now.

Holgate, how man PL clubs have made signings so far - not many at all.

No time to panic.

Adi_Dem Posted on 21/06/2008 10:27
Our main failing as a club

"We have a French guy whose transfer we seem unable to complete for whatever reason - so isn't the most laid back Boro fan a tad twitchy?"

Nope, I wouldn't have thought so. You say we didn't replace Viduka and Yak. I say we have a better 4 than we have ever had in the past - subject to Mido proving his fitness.

Defensively we look good, if a little light at full back.

Could not agree more that we need a keeper and a couple of midfielders but good god man, it's not even July yet. How many players have been transferred that you have been envious of? Probably one for me - Modric, and we couldn't have got him anyway.

We will sign midfielders and, by the way, George and GON are still here you know, they haven't gone anywhere.

As I say, it's about balance. Yes, there are problems and negatives but equally there are many positives to build upon.

Holgateoldskool Posted on 21/06/2008 10:32
Our main failing as a club

Our strike force of Yak,Dukes and Jimmy is way,way superior of anything we can now assemble.

Plenty of time? Today is the 21st June - we will be playing friendlies in a month or so? Report back ror training early July?(someone will flag up the date!)So could be 2weeks or so - bags of time as you say........

Jonny_Ingbar Posted on 21/06/2008 10:35
Our main failing as a club

Lets be right Jimmy was past his best when he was sold and Vids only had one decent season with us and has returned to his previous form (and fitness)after signing for Newcastle.

We are much stronger in this department now IMO.

Adi_Dem Posted on 21/06/2008 10:55
Our main failing as a club

You're just proving my point holgate. You are determined, no matter what anyone posts, to see the negative.

Are you seriously suggesting we don't have plenty of time to sign players? How many players have other teams bought - answer the question? I don't care what anyone says but particularly with the Euros on it is almost impossible to sign anyone before the pre-season is in full swing.

We'll have to agree to differ on the strikers. I think we have a much better blend and balance.

zzzzz Posted on 21/06/2008 11:03
Our main failing as a club

Jimmy was way past his best and as has been said above Viduka has hardly set Tyneside alight. Good business from Southgate.

And IMO Alves will prove to be a better striker than Yak.

So Holgate, your suggestion that we are worse off is wrong.

Yourself, mappy and Buk were all missing for a few days after the City game, on holiday?

Zoophonic Posted on 21/06/2008 11:07
Our main failing as a club

21st June! We've missed the boat! S***.

FFS all the players (and probably their agents) are on holiday right now......

superstu Posted on 21/06/2008 11:15
Our main failing as a club

Holgateoldskool - Come on Mendieta leaving doesnt count! Its not as if thats weakened our midfield. He hasn't played the last two years! Surely you see his departure as a positive?

So far we've still got Cattermole, Boateng, Arca, Shwaky and Oneil. Only Rochemback who was regularly playing thats gone. The midfields hardly in chaos. I think Adi's right about recognising positives. Southgates trying to get improvements in first before leaving us without a midfield. Good on him!

skiprat Posted on 21/06/2008 12:20
Our main failing as a club

"Come on Mendieta leaving doesnt count! Its not as if thats weakened our midfield. He hasn't played the last two years! Surely you see his departure as a positive? "

He won't. And this is the problem. We can all see the negatives at the club but Holgate ONLY sees the negatives.

I don't think yet that our strike force are up the standard of Yak, Vis and JFH but only because Mido has been poor and injured. If this season Mido sorts himself and Alves continues in the same vein then we will have a strikeforce just as good if not better. Tuncay and Ali are better back up than we've had in some time as well.

If you're going to take it every season that we haven't got players signed by the time we start to play fixtures then you're barking up the wrong tree. Some of our best players in recent years have been signed in August.

It's nice to think that you can get all the players you want in by July but it simply doesn't work like that.

somethingtodowithdeath Posted on 21/06/2008 14:14
Our main failing as a club

Our main failing as a club IMHO is:

1. Constantly telling supporters that they should be eternally greatful, remember 86 etc.

2. Gibbo being 'too' patient with managers.

3. Generally making the match-day experience contrived and soulless.

4. Appointing managers who are poor motivators of players.

Jonny_Ingbar Posted on 21/06/2008 14:25
Our main failing as a club

So do you think that Gibson was too patient with SMAC?

Buddy Posted on 21/06/2008 14:41
Our main failing as a club

"1. Constantly telling supporters that they should be eternally greatful, remember 86 etc"

They do, don't they? All these F***ing people genuinely think we should be battering Liverpool out of the way to take the Champions League by storm.

Let me tell you what happens if you make a consistent improvement, season by season, place by place. You get to a point where you win league titles and reach European Cup finals, and think it's acceptable to sack managers who achieve both those things in the same season.

Fair enough, but where do you go then? If you finish fourth the following year, sack the board. Sixth the year after, close the ground.

We are a relatively small club with an above average fanbase and the good fortune to have the best chairman in the country. We have been in a position we have no more right to than Leicester or Forest or Leeds or Bradford Park Avenue for fourteen years - that's over 10% of our club's history.

I'm not saying we shouldn't want to improve, but FFS we are nowhere near being in even an average position, never mind a bad one.

somethingtodowithdeath Posted on 21/06/2008 14:45
Our main failing as a club

Initially in the case of SMAC no, as he had a massive job clearing out after BR. However when he pulled the situation around I though SG was too patient with him.

Gibbos patience is not matched by the supporters, thats why attendances are falling year on year.

The impression I get is that managers will get their full term regardless of progress.But most importantly mangers know/think this, and even though it lets the manger plan long term, which is healthy, I also think it creates a lack of urgency and accountability along the way.



Adi_Dem Posted on 21/06/2008 14:48
Our main failing as a club

Too patient and yet, in order, his last three seasons produced a Cup win, a 7th placed finish and a UEFA Cup Final before the manager he was being too patient with was given the England job.

I'll agree with you about Robbo but not McClaren - and those are the only two that Gibbo has appointed before Gate.

somethingtodowithdeath Posted on 21/06/2008 14:58
Our main failing as a club

Buddy,

"1. Constantly telling supporters that they should be eternally greatful, remember 86 etc"

Obviously the club do not say this directly, but it is mentioned and inferred on a regular basis by club and supporters alike. I mentioned it as it always seems to be the 'stock' answer to people who get frustrated with the lack of progress on the pitch.

Also I have not mentioned sacking any manager.

Adi_Dem Posted on 21/06/2008 15:02
Our main failing as a club

I can't say that I've heard it from the club too often.

somethingtodowithdeath Posted on 21/06/2008 15:18
Our main failing as a club


Adi, But do you take my point about the 'how far we have come in a short period of time', can be frustrating as a reply when we are discussing the now and the lack of progress at times.

Success for me is good passing footie, mid table, occasional flirt with top six,watching locals lads, quarter/semi finals of a cup every two or three years and most importantly a good match day atmosphere.

Buddy Posted on 21/06/2008 15:21
Our main failing as a club

So all we're missing from that list is the atmosphere, which is the one furthest outside the club's control.

Adi_Dem Posted on 21/06/2008 15:22
Our main failing as a club

You've confused me with that. Does your final paragraph not describe pretty much how it has been for a good few seasons now?

It doesn't frustrate me as a response because it's true. Rome wasn't built in a day.

somethingtodowithdeath Posted on 21/06/2008 15:34
Our main failing as a club

Buddy,whats your point.

I added what success for me was to indicate that I am realistic.

I though the discussion was "Our main failing as a club" or are we not discussing the 4 points I made. The question did not ask for positives.

Also if you think we have achieved "good passing footie" then I'm lost, totally.

somethingtodowithdeath Posted on 21/06/2008 15:40
Our main failing as a club

Adi, Thats maybe the difference, it does frustrate me.

As for Rome wasnt built in a day, no it wasnt, but it did get built, the decline in attendances suggest our Rome is built and some supporters don't like it or they don't think it will get built or finished in reasonable time.

skiprat Posted on 21/06/2008 16:05
Our main failing as a club

All it tells me is that we have a big group of cheap, whinging arseholes in this region who would rather sit at home and whine about Gibson not spending millions on new players when they won't fork out £400 to sit in the ground.

Dibzzz Posted on 21/06/2008 16:18
Our main failing as a club

Winning a major domestic trophy and appearing in a major cup final isn't what I call deluded.

Adi_Dem Posted on 21/06/2008 16:32
Our main failing as a club

I'm not sure what it is that frustrates you though. I don't think I've ever heard anything like that come from the club and aso it's other fans that must say it. And it's true, isn't it? Over the last ten years list our achievements and then compare that to the previous years back to our inception.

Your barometers of success are all there, as Buddy says. So I'm not sure where you're coming from.

The thread started as a mappie attempt to show everyone how right he is and how deluded anyone that disagree with him is. Deluded fans? Not for me. If anything, the opposite is true. We have a bunch of cynical, bitter, realistic, demanding and critical fans in the country - despite the success that we've had.

What the likes of mappie seem to have a real problem with is any sort of balance. Of course there are things wrong at the club. I'm sure most fans would agree upon and be able to identify what the majority are. Equally though, we have a lot to be proud of and a lot to buid upon.

Buddy Posted on 21/06/2008 18:25
Our main failing as a club

My point was that in a thread about failings you've set a list of criteria for success and we meet all of them apart from the atmosphere.

You can't play flowing, sparkling football all the time. Not even Arsenal do that. We are trying to do it, and quite often succeeding. I have seen more "good passing football" in the last five or six years than in the whole of the previous 15 or so I was watching.

We have the capacity, with a bit of confidence, to absolutely hammer a lot of teams. I honestly don't think that Wigan, Sunderland, Bolton, Blackburn, Portsmouth etc. would have beaten City by that margin, even with the circumstances the same.



And, uniquely amongst the "bottom 16", we have the expectation of results against the "top 4".

It's not that I don't see negatives. Gary O'Neil, for example, does not seem to me to be the answer to any question you would care to ask. Not starting every game with the confidence we finished the City game with is hugely frustrating. And £5 or so is way too much for hot dog, chips and a coffee.

But none of these things detract from the overwhelming positives in my last but one post.

Adi_Dem Posted on 21/06/2008 18:32
Our main failing as a club

Exactly Buddy. I haven't come across many Boro fans that think everything in the garden is rosy. Far from it. In fact, most of our fans tend to concentrate on the negatives and always but always fail to recognise the positives. The likes of mappie, holgate are therefore quite typical Boro fans in that sense.

I could list a load of positives. I could post a load of negatives. It's that balance that seems to be missing from many Boro fans and that is evident on this thread. The real pull of this board, for me anyway, was always the discussion and disagreement over how to fix the negatives and build on the positives. It seems to have been lost to a certain extent and posters are put in these polarised boxes so that they can't have a shade of grey.

Holgateoldskool Posted on 22/06/2008 10:34
Our main failing as a club

The irony is Scoea is you agree largely with the sentiments given ie the deficiencies within positions the team/squad has but feel compelled to critise those with the same view - because they don't list positives! Brilliant!

You then talk of peoples' frustrations by countering the success we've had.Fine. Except the reason folk have those frustrations is we have achieved something and have failed to build on it. That is the core of the frustration.

So once again you appear to be in agreement.

The problem is you then wish to analyse and pontificate about the psyche of "negative posters" when if it wasn't for your fence sitting or "balanced view" arguement you would probably be seen as a member of the negative fellowship as well!

Priceless!

onthemap Posted on 22/06/2008 12:23
Our main failing as a club

It's straight forward - we've gone backwards since Southgate took over.

Post all you want about negative or positives, it's a fact.

Adi_Dem Posted on 22/06/2008 12:33
Our main failing as a club

I don't think I've ever read so much bull and double speak in my time on this board. I would suggest that you look up the word irony. Just to be clear, I am not criticising you for not listing positives, you've misunderstood that quite badly. I am criticising you (well, mappie actually) for labelling those that do see positives as deluded because they quite patently aren't deluded. It is fact that you only see negatives and can't recognise any positives. That is not something I would criticise though it does puzzle me. It is also fact that some of your points are valid and I can agree with them.

If having a balanced view, recognising what is wrong at the club and what is right is sitting on the fence then you've got me. Fair enough. I just happen to think it is the only way to approach any situation. it is never all black or all white, there are shades of grey.

Mappie - I don't think we've gone backwards under Southgate, I think we've stagnated. We haven't made any progress. Big season for us as a club this.

onthemap Posted on 22/06/2008 12:40
Our main failing as a club

If you are arguing that we haven't gone backwards since winning a cup and competing in Europe, then yes Adi you are in fact deluding yourself.

The 'big season for us' was the one after Smac left. We needed to appoint experience, we didn't,and now we're paying for it.

Some things in life Adi are in fact black and white.

Adi_Dem Posted on 22/06/2008 12:43
Our main failing as a club

I agree with you that we should have appointed experience and I was desperate for us to get MON but if you think that we are worse now than we were in McClaren's last season, notwithstanding the UEFA Cup Final, then you are, in fact, wrong. Now that is black and white.

I presume that because Bolton were in Europe last season and stayed up they moved forward and progressed after Sam's departure?

onthemap Posted on 22/06/2008 13:03
Our main failing as a club

"notwithstanding the UEFA Cup Final" that's not exactly a little detail is it?

Adi_Dem Posted on 22/06/2008 13:04
Our main failing as a club

No, it isn't. In case you didn't understand, what I am saying is that even with the UEFA Cup Final I don't think we've moved backwards. Now, answer the question - have Bolton progressed since BFS left?

thornaboro Posted on 22/06/2008 13:15
Our main failing as a club

TEN YEARS PLUS IN PL,NUMEROUS CUP FINALS,CARLING CUP WINNERS,EUFA CUP FINAL,BEST ACADEMY AND ONE OF THE BEST, TRAINING GROUNDS IN COUNTRY,CLUB OWNED AND RAN BY A BORO LAD .... FOOK ME I THINK SOME SO CALL FAILING,JUST THINK HOW FAR WE HAVE COME FROM WATCHING BORO AT ARYSOME PARK IN DIV 3 PLAYING NEWPORT COUNTY...... REAL WORLD .

onthemap Posted on 22/06/2008 13:17
Our main failing as a club

Why are you asking me about Bolton? I don't know what they've done and don't give a toss.

So you think that last season was as good as the season we reached the Uefa final and you think my claim that we have deluded supporters is unrealistic.

I've heard everything now, I suppose we were as good as ManUtd last season eh? apart from everything they won of course.

onthemap Posted on 22/06/2008 13:19
Our main failing as a club

Oh good A RETARD TO ARGUE WITH!

HolgateEnd Posted on 22/06/2008 13:29
Our main failing as a club

Mappy, I agree that in a sense, our fans are deluded. Because we expect more than we should. As a club with an average attendance of around 24-25000 and generally being classed as the smaller of the big 3 in a relatively poor catchment area, we (as fans) continue to demand high profile, top class signings which is unrealistic. Instead, we should just accept that we're a relatively small club, and although we'd all like to see progress, we've got to be thankful that we are still in the pre
mier league and not doing a Forest/Leeds/Leicester/Southampton etc.

However, you've gone off the point by bringing your feelings over Southgate into the thread. This is a thread (I think) about the fans "deluding" themselves by expecting too much. It aint a thread about how good or bad a job Southgate is doing (although I agree that we've stagnated/gone backwards under his stewardship so far).

This thread should really have come a couple of weeks ago, when I remember reading a new post where somebody claimed if we signed this Digard kid, Sidwell and a keeper, we could finish top 6. Comments like that make me agree with you that some fans are deluded. Signing those players might get us up to 10th or 11th. We'd need much better quality in several positions to get into the top 6.

Anyway, as fans I believe we should demand improvement each season and a cup final here and there, but always feel content with being a small mid-table club, because that is exactly what we are.

Stockton_Boro_Dan Posted on 22/06/2008 13:34
Our main failing as a club

onthemap - will you be happy if we are relegated, if you put half as much passion on getting behind the time as you do picking every single fault there is to pick with the football club then you might see it in a different light?

yes last season wasn't great however southgate and gibson are trying their bloody hardest to change the whole face of the club, i.e on the pitch and of it, 12m for alves who i think will be a star next season, a new scouting network, we are trying to get new/better players in to play the sort of football we want to go and watch week in week out. i just can't see what good it does spouting hatred towards the club if you are a so called 'supporter' we certainly don't need anyone like you around if we are to move in the right direction because i think if we got into europe this season you would still bloody moan.

Adi_Dem Posted on 22/06/2008 13:48
Our main failing as a club

You won't answer because you can't. You aren't prepared to engage, as ever, and when shown up you revert to type. It's easy making you look silly. I'll do it all day long if you wish.

onthemap Posted on 22/06/2008 14:16
Our main failing as a club

Adi look, I genuinely don't know whether Bolton have moved forward since FSA left, I really don't know, that's not me agreeing or disagreeing, I haven't a clue.

You obviously want to make a point by comparing Bolton with us - make it and I may agree with you or I may not.
I'm not second guessing you,I just can't be arsed.

HolgateEnd
The delusional fans, in my opinion, are the ones who choose not to face up to the fact that we are going backwards. We can't change the past, we blew it when we appointed Southgate - again in my opinion before you all blow a gasket.

joebonano Posted on 22/06/2008 14:22
Our main failing as a club

I'm not sure going backwards is the right description.At least 6 teams have had massive cash injections in the last 2 years.This is making it all the more difficult for us to stand still let alone move forwards.

Boro_inleeds Posted on 22/06/2008 14:24
Our main failing as a club

That's a fair point Joe.

icarus1965 Posted on 22/06/2008 14:26
Our main failing as a club

the player we sell we don,t seem to get much for them or get nothing for them.....

to many boo boys spoiling the atmosphere at the stadium...

unentertaining football....

too expensive to watch the game....

poor home record....

inexperienced goalkeepers

Adi_Dem Posted on 22/06/2008 14:31
Our main failing as a club

It ain't a difficult point to grasp mappie. You argue that I am deluded because I don't think we have in real terms gone backwards since our UEFA Cup Final exit. You argue that on the basis that we were in Europe then and aren't now.

My simple question to you was to tell me whether you would apply the same logic to Bolton who were in Europe last season and stayed up by the skin of their teeth. Surely you must conclude, based on that approach, that Bolton progressed last season as compared to under Allardyce because they were in Europe?

Or, which I doubt, are you prepared to concede that it isn't anywhere near as simple as saying we were in Europe then and aren't now and so MUST have gone backwards. Are you prepared to concede that you were a little out of line by calling me deluded for looking beyond a Cup Final?

All day long.

mailinator Posted on 22/06/2008 14:42
Our main failing as a club

Yes, that makes LOADS of sense. All that demanding your question is answered to make that 'point'....

Adi_Dem Posted on 22/06/2008 14:46
Our main failing as a club

I was called deluded for not basing my judgement of our progress or otherwise on one game, I answered by using Bolton as the example. If that doesn't make sense to you then I wouldn't bother reading this board. Stick with the Beano!

Mojo Posted on 22/06/2008 14:49
Our main failing as a club

If we all chipped in with a quid...could we not get onthemap a stripper to cheer the miserable sod up?

mailinator Posted on 22/06/2008 14:49
Our main failing as a club

You repeatedly asking him to answer the question was a big clue. Oh, you've edited the bit asking "where was I demanding an answer"?

This IS like reading the Beano with your S***e 'debate'.

Adi_Dem Posted on 22/06/2008 14:51
Our main failing as a club

I deleted because I didn't see the point in debating it with you.

I was right with that brilliantly intellectual response. I'm struggling to see why you have such a problem with it. It's a simple enough idea, it's a discussion about football on a football messageboard. Nope, I'm completely out of any ideas as to why it would cause you so much difficulty. Over to you.

onthemap Posted on 22/06/2008 14:57
Our main failing as a club

Adi
Let me make a few things clear.
When I said that I thought we were going backwards and gave the European campaign as an example, you jumped to the conclusion that that is my only point - as is often the case with you.

Here's a few more reasons why I think we've gone backwards.

1 We are not now anywhere close to competing for a European slot.
2 We now have a general feeling around the club that 4th bottom is acceptable.
3 We have lost thousands of season ticket holders
4 We play in a stadium lacking atmosphere
5 Our manager is unproven and tactically naive
6 We have fought relegation battles since we appointed Southgate
7 Our football is drab


All week long.

joebonano Posted on 22/06/2008 15:14
Our main failing as a club

Map in answer to your points
1.We have only once "competed " for Europe via the league once in 11 seasons No change there.
2. Utter rubbish.Do you really think that Downing would have signed a new deal if he thought that was the sum total of everyones thinking.
3.ST holders have been in decline for about 7 years.No change there.
4.Atmosphere is crap right across the league in all seater stadia
5.GS tactics.Can't see on what basis this generalised statement is made.
6.On the fringes- the same as we have been many times in the last 11 years
7.The football is the usual mixed bag of good bad and indifferent the same as always.

burydweller Posted on 22/06/2008 15:29
Our main failing as a club

Spot on mate, deluded fans who think we can compete with Man ure and chavski

Adi_Dem Posted on 22/06/2008 15:59
Our main failing as a club

"If you are arguing that we haven't gone backwards since winning a cup and competing in Europe, then yes Adi you are in fact deluding yourself."

Your words mappie. I'm glad you now accept that you were wrong and that you have to look at a broader picture in order to assess whether we have gone backwards.

Now that you've actually posted a substantive reason that you think we've gone backwards I will respond to each of your points. I presume that if I disagree with you you will consider me to be deluded but hey, that's a risk I'm prepared to take.

Please bear in mind that the starting point here is that I think we have stood still rather than gone backwards. In other words, I am not arguing that Southgate has been successful or that we have progressed under him.

1 We are not now anywhere close to competing for a European slot.

Were we any closer than we are now at the end of McClaren's last season?

2 We now have a general feeling around the club that 4th bottom is acceptable.

Do we? I haven't spoken to anyone that thinks like that. Would you care to back that up?

3 We have lost thousands of season ticket holders

Since our last season under McClaren? How many?

4 We play in a stadium lacking atmosphere

Wasn't the same thing said during McClaren's tenure?

5 Our manager is unproven and tactically naive

Not sure how that can be used to determine progress or otherwise. It's a statement of opinion that I agree with. However, you have to accept that McClaren suffered very similar criticism.

6 We have fought relegation battles since we appointed Southgate

We did the same thing in McClaren's last season.

7 Our football is drab

Again, wasn't the same said under McClaren?

So, in a nutshell, your list proves me right. We have stood still. The same problems that existed at the end of the McClaren reign are still present and Southgate has not fixed them but, by and large, we are where we were before he took over.

All month long.

Holgateoldskool Posted on 22/06/2008 16:01
Our main failing as a club

Scoea, I've read your comments throughout - to see if I misinterpreted or misunderstood them - and I stand by what I've posted - and feel comfortable with it.

However to take this thread full circle about deluded fans there are and have been threads from posters who talk wildly about competing for a top 6 position with a couple of signings.

This is nonsense - we would need more than that - something we can't afford. For us to make any progression we need a manager who has "got it" tactically and can motivate the team on a frequent basis.

It is my opinion - and others that these things arn't in place.

So the bottom line is Mappy is not far away with his assessment. He does not club all fans in the same bracket but his point is valid.

And we can them up the road deluded???

Also, if positives are so important in your life heres an idea for a thread - The positives of the Boro.

See if numerically you can match this thread!!!!!!!!!!

Adi_Dem Posted on 22/06/2008 16:07
Our main failing as a club

All you're doing then is repeating your misunderstanding and misinterpretation of my posts. I don't care whether you want to see positives or not. I do care that you seem to be agreeing with the accusation that fans are deluded if they do.

If you're asking me whether I agree with anyone that thinks we can finish in the top 6 then the answer is a resounding no. We can't. If you're asking me whether we have a good keeper, a good midfield or a good manager then the answer is a resounding no.

However, if you are asking me whether I think it is deluded to believe that as a club there are plenty of positive things to build on, that as a club we have a good core of players to improve our current position or that there is enough time to put together a midfield capable of getting the team into the top half then sorry but again it will be a resounding no. That is not deluded. It is reasonable, based on sound ideas and should not be dismissed as naive in the face of such abject realism.

It's simple holgate - I agree with many of the points you make, I disagree with the dismissal of any remotely positive thought as naive or deluded.

I can point you towards several of my threads in which I posted something positive and they resulted in just this reaction for just the same reason. I was criticised as naive, a rara and as deluded. It is ridiculous.

onthemap Posted on 22/06/2008 16:12
Our main failing as a club

"1 We are not now anywhere close to competing for a European slot.

Were we any closer than we are now at the end of McClaren's last season?"

Yes we had just played in a Uefa final.

2 "We now have a general feeling around the club that 4th bottom is acceptable.

Do we? I haven't spoken to anyone that thinks like that. Would you care to back that up?"

Yes. When we were hovering around the bottom three (most of the season) I was constantly told that everything was fine and we should not expect any more.

3 "We have lost thousands of season ticket holders

Since our last season under McClaren? How many?"

Don't know how many, but the fact is we have


4 "We play in a stadium lacking atmosphere

Wasn't the same thing said during McClaren's tenure?"

At times but at least we had some highs


5 Our manager is unproven and tactically naive

Not sure how that can be used to determine progress or otherwise. It's a statement of opinion that I agree with. However, you have to accept that McClaren suffered very similar criticism.

But Smac learnt from his mistakes and guided us to Europe and a cup win. Southgate is not showing any signs of improvement - Cardiff for example.

6 "We have fought relegation battles since we appointed Southgate

We did the same thing in McClaren's last season."

We also competed in a Uefa final and won a cup, the point is that all we do now is stave off what seems an inevitable relegation.

7 "Our football is drab

Again, wasn't the same said under McClaren?"

Yes at times, but again there were highs.

"So, in a nutshell, your list proves me right. We have stood still."

No we are a worse team than when Smac left, it's obvious to those of us who can accept that this regime has failed.

All eternity.

Holgateoldskool Posted on 22/06/2008 16:14
Our main failing as a club

I don't know weather you are missing the point or being bloody minded.Your assessment is similar to mine yet you choose to argue!

My intrerpretation is Mappy is talking about the fans who think top 6 - top 10 even- is within our grasp.I don't think any rational or logical thinker can oppose that view.

That is/was the point of his thread - plain and simple.

As I've said - but will reiterate- there are some positives - Downing,Alves, Wheater's progress,steady Eddie Luke Young, Huth if we can get him fit - but that is nowhere near enough to make the progress we would hope for.

Trust this clarifies my stance completely.

Adi_Dem Posted on 22/06/2008 16:25
Our main failing as a club

I understood your stance but you have misunderstood mappie's. He is not talking about those that think we can finish top 6, he is talking about anyone that holds any sort of positive viewpoint and that is where I have a problem.

I've just read your responses mappie and they are, frankly, entirely unsatisfactory.

All of the highs you refer to happened after McClaren's 3rd season. His first two were actually quite similar to Southgate's in many ways.

Are you seriously saying that being in a UEFA Cup Final means that team were a better team than this one and that a league season of 38 games with an almost identical finish means nothing?

At least try and be consistent with your approach to McClaren and to Southgate.

Deary me.

onthemap Posted on 22/06/2008 16:28
Our main failing as a club

"he is talking about anyone that holds any sort of positive viewpoint and that is where I have a problem."

That's entirely in your head Adi.
Be as positive as you like it changes nothing.

Holgateoldskool Posted on 22/06/2008 16:38
Our main failing as a club

Mappy, be reasonable. You know the only reason we've not signed anybody yet is the Euro's are on and all other players and agents are on hols _ I know because I was told this on this thread!

red_shamrock Posted on 22/06/2008 16:41
Our main failing as a club

After Smac left what expectations did you have? I think maybe mine was to steady the club I felt we had achieved a lot under Smac and had some really historic achievements but his side was ageing and he left for the pinnacle in any English managers career the top job.
I think Gibbo did the right thing in appointing Southgate hes been chairman long enough now to know his onions, alright it hasn't set the league alight but his football is going in the right direction, I mean Sven is supposed to be a tactical genius and Southgates side out done em by seven goals so hes now not that naive.
I know but the Cardiff game hurt But I also think it provided a big test for Southgate he kept us up when it have quite easily have gone the other way I believe he will have learnt a lot from last season.
We may have stood still and loitering around the bottom three this season for me isnt acceptable, I think we should show some improvement its his third season and I hope he will push us on I beleive he has the know how to do it just now but we have to get behind the team.

Adi_Dem Posted on 22/06/2008 16:43
Our main failing as a club

"Be as positive as you like it changes nothing."

That sums it all up better than I ever could.

Right, I'm off to a BBQ. Play nicely you lot.

Holgateoldskool Posted on 22/06/2008 16:44
Our main failing as a club

Don't burn your sausage!

Holgateoldskool Posted on 22/06/2008 16:44
Our main failing as a club

Double banger!

HolgateEnd Posted on 22/06/2008 17:24
Our main failing as a club

OTM, you could very easily stop this childish and pointless bickering between you and Adi by explaining what your original post was about.

Were you saying that the fans who think with 1 or 2 midfielders we can get top 6 are deluded?

Or were you saying that anyone who thinks anything remotely positive about MFC is deluded?

Please, for the mental sakes of all of us, please can you clarify what your exact point was?