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flyermetothemoon Posted on 29/05/2008 11:27
ROONEY = OVER RATED

His best days are well and truely behind him.

As Jim Royale says ''World class my arse.''

onthemap Posted on 29/05/2008 11:29
ROONEY = OVER RATED

Some people just don't understand this game do they?

SundayMonday-HabibBeye Posted on 29/05/2008 11:30
ROONEY = OVER RATED

Rooney overrated?

Don't think so.

Muttley Posted on 29/05/2008 11:31
ROONEY = OVER RATED

Stupid people and football eh? I blame Bill Gates for giving stupid people the ability to make tits of themselves to a worldwide audience. Basstadd

Durham_Red Posted on 29/05/2008 11:31
ROONEY = OVER RATED

Wouldn't say his best days are behind him!

He's good but not top drawer.

lakeoffire Posted on 29/05/2008 11:33
ROONEY = OVER RATED

he's a very good footballer

still overrated imo

Tony_Drago Posted on 29/05/2008 11:35
ROONEY = OVER RATED

He needs people with pace running in behind defenders to get the best from him. They create space and he's a master at chipping through balls.

USA'S anti-football yesterday meant there was no room apart from out wide, I really think if we'd had two good wingers we could have took them for 5 or 6 yesterday but down the middle they were just defending in numbers and kicking anything that moved.

Linny Posted on 29/05/2008 11:35
ROONEY = OVER RATED

I agree. He's a very good player technically etc but he doesn't get the goals.

Was it 1 goal in the last 11 premier games?

Aliadiere is crucified by some on here for that.

Boromart Posted on 29/05/2008 11:35
ROONEY = OVER RATED

he isn't in the same category as Ronaldo, Kaka, Raul, Messi and other global stars. Bloody good player still.

I think he lacks killer pace and goals (especially in the big games) to really be world class. You can get away without one of those, but lacking both?

mickbrown Posted on 29/05/2008 11:36
ROONEY = OVER RATED

He's the best we've got by a bloody long chalk.

FunkyPotatoe Posted on 29/05/2008 11:37
ROONEY = OVER RATED

Ronney, Ferdinand and Gerrard are really our only players who would get into the Brazil, France, Italy teams.

Hence our three world class players. He is a total hot head and too often lets people wind him up etc. He is a modern day Gazza, the difference being that Wazza is managed by Fergie and Gazza was not managed.

flyermetothemoon Posted on 29/05/2008 11:37
ROONEY = OVER RATED

Cost us Qual to Euro 2008 with that fookin challenge against Russia.

Cost us at the World Cup getting sent off against Portugal.

Nevers scores for England.

Get rid and try Ashton up front.

Keverson Posted on 29/05/2008 11:40
ROONEY = OVER RATED

He's a good player, but he is overrated.

I think he's just an angry version of Dirk Kuyt. Great work ethic, but not consistent in front of goal.

Ferguson doesn't exactly have him playing up front either, he gets shunted about all over the place whereas Tevez stays mainly central. Last week in the Champions League final he was playing right wing.

Linny Posted on 29/05/2008 11:42
ROONEY = OVER RATED

"He's the best we've got by a bloody long chalk"

Which explains why we are not in the Euros.

A hot head too, likely to get sent off if things aren't going well. Silly petulent tackles, mouthing off etc.

Libbins Posted on 29/05/2008 11:43
ROONEY = OVER RATED

Did you see him throw a paddy again when he came off last night?

Pulling the jackets off the blokes on the bench and throwing his boots off.

He needs a good hiding.

Boromart Posted on 29/05/2008 11:43
ROONEY = OVER RATED

Mick is that a thunbs up to Rooney, or a thunbs down to English football?????

Libbins Posted on 29/05/2008 11:44
ROONEY = OVER RATED

It's funny how Terry and some of the Chelsea boys get slated for being on too much money etc but Rooney is absolutely terrible in terms of professional attitude.

Muttley Posted on 29/05/2008 11:44
ROONEY = OVER RATED

"Get rid and try Ashton up front"

Should be framed and put at the top of the website for all to marvel at.

The_same_as_before Posted on 29/05/2008 11:45
ROONEY = OVER RATED

If anything - underrated

Holgatewall Posted on 29/05/2008 11:46
ROONEY = OVER RATED

Rooney was probably the best player on the pitch last night and every time he is injured or sent off coincides with England being dumped out of competitions.

A great player and not overated at all.

Boromart Posted on 29/05/2008 11:46
ROONEY = OVER RATED

2 goals in his last 18 competitive England games! 5 yellows and a red in the same period of time. He is the international version of Alan Smith.

I noticed when the ref gave him a booking, as he walked away he mouthed, "F*** off you F****g W*****" at him. I would have given him a second yellow for that if I was reffing. He has zero respect for authority and is teaching the youth of today those same 'morals', but I guess that's a different discussion.

Keverson Posted on 29/05/2008 11:48
ROONEY = OVER RATED

"Rooney was probably the best player on the pitch last night"

I didn't watch the entire game, but would it be ok to ask why you thought he was Englands best player?

Buddy2 Posted on 29/05/2008 11:49
ROONEY = OVER RATED

"I really think if we'd had two good wingers "

England do seem to struggle with that. For example, I can't think of one single English-born player with a natural left foot who can beat a man and cross the ball with any accuracy. Steven Gerrard is probably the best person for this type of role in the absence of any quality.

[/irony]

Buddy2 Posted on 29/05/2008 11:49
ROONEY = OVER RATED

Boromart - would you? You'd have been hauled up before the FA then. It's a straight red.

onthemap Posted on 29/05/2008 11:50
ROONEY = OVER RATED

He was particularly over rated winning the Champions League and the Premiership - again!

Not a clue, not a F***ing clue!

His manager must be a clown, why oh why doesn't he listen to the gurus on here?

dicky2006 Posted on 29/05/2008 11:51
ROONEY = OVER RATED

He would play for any team in the world week in week out every manager wants a player like Rooney ive never heard such rubbish in my life.

Holgatewall Posted on 29/05/2008 11:54
ROONEY = OVER RATED

Why I thought he was our best player. Well, it's is all down to peronal ideas of course but I like his work rate.He'll tackle back and help out in defence.He's there to take the ball when needed. I just like his all round play.

Libbins Posted on 29/05/2008 11:56
ROONEY = OVER RATED

His tackling last night though was woeful. Should have had two yellows actually.

Keverson Posted on 29/05/2008 11:57
ROONEY = OVER RATED

Thanks Holgate, appreciate the reply.

Dicky, I don't think every team in the world would want Rooney - else they'd be busy tapping him up regardless of price like Ronaldo. Rooney's a second striker, and there are many better second strikers out there - one of them even plays alongside Rooney at Man Utd.

sheppy Posted on 29/05/2008 11:58
ROONEY = OVER RATED

Same thing happened with him and Owen. Burst on the scene have three magic seasons then people find them out and how to play them. Players like Ronaldo cant be found out because there is no way of plaing them as they dont depend on anything other than themsleves. Roon needs lots of things to be in his favour for him to play but Ronaldo does not. He just needs the ball.

Muttley Posted on 29/05/2008 12:00
ROONEY = OVER RATED

I watched the whole game (though sleep did threaten after about 20 minutes but a sore back kept me awake) and I had Rooney down as the MOTM. Anyone else?

I'd love to have known what Gerrard's instructions were because he was all over the fooking pitch, Lampard was tripping over Hargreaves and Beckham was trying to play "Hollywood Balls" all the time. Defoe was guilty of a couple of bad misses and the defence and keeper were hardly tested so you can rule them out. Which leaves Wayne.

I notice from watching GMTV this morning that Coleen's tits are shrinking, poor lass has had to fly out for an emergency dress fitting in NY yet through all this Rooney still puts in his shift. Fooking hero.

Boromart Posted on 29/05/2008 12:01
ROONEY = OVER RATED

would I? I would have thought it would be UEFA that I would be hauled in front of not the FA? [:P]

It's a bit off topic but....
I scrutinised Gerrard intently last night.
- Crosses from the left wing ZERO.
- crosses from inside-left 1, more of a rolled pass than a cross.
- left wing dribbles going past his man, zero
- cut inside, lots
- number of times vacated left wing and left a big gaping hole that Brazil/Argentina/Italy/France would exploit, too many times to count.
- number of soft freekicks given away, at least5
- number of time she used his right foot when the left would have been better, at leas 10.

In a friendly against limited opposition we got away with it, but in a proper game we would have got into big problems.

Tony_Drago Posted on 29/05/2008 12:01
ROONEY = OVER RATED

That is Michael Owen who is only behind Bobby Charlton, Linekar and Greaves in England's all time goal scorer list.

onthemap Posted on 29/05/2008 12:03
ROONEY = OVER RATED

Boromart
You scrutinised him that intently you missed the fact he was our best attacking midfielder - oh he scored aswell.

Libbins Posted on 29/05/2008 12:05
ROONEY = OVER RATED

Gerrard was MOM without a doubt last night. Best performance in and England shirt for ages.

You can't scrutinise him for being 'all over the pitch' and then say Rooney was man of the match surely.

Boromart Posted on 29/05/2008 12:09
ROONEY = OVER RATED

"You scrutinised him that intently you missed the fact he was our best attacking midfielder - oh he scored aswell." -- as a left winger he was poor, he didn't stick to that role, the team lost shape. His individual contributions were good, but like I said against a half decent team his wandering and lack of discipline (in terms of team shape) would be a serious problem.

He scored by wandering into the central positions. His desire to get involved rather than sacrifice himself for the team shape led to taking space way from Rooney (who wandered out wide) and Lampard (who disappeared from the game).

Libbins I didn't say Rooney was motm.

Regarding Owen, he has been one of Englands best ever servants. TWENTY-SIX competitive goals, would have been more but for injury.

Libbins Posted on 29/05/2008 12:12
ROONEY = OVER RATED

Boromart - I'm not specifically talking to you.

more so to "I watched the whole game (though sleep did threaten after about 20 minutes but a sore back kept me awake) and I had Rooney down as the MOTM. Anyone else?

I'd love to have known what Gerrard's instructions were because he was all over the fooking pitch" from Muttley.

Don't flatter yourself.











[:D]

Leos_scum Posted on 29/05/2008 12:13
ROONEY = OVER RATED

I read on here last week that he's just a 30 million pound version of Dirk Kuyt! Can't remember who posted it. Made me laugh though. I think that's a bit over the top, but there are plenty of other forwards I'd rather have than Rooney, even though he's one of the best England players.

Linny Posted on 29/05/2008 12:13
ROONEY = OVER RATED

"He was particularly over rated winning the Champions League and the Premiership - again!"

Nobody is disputing he plays for a good team Mappy. Not sure how many goals he got this season but i don't think he was prolific.

And no-one is saying he is shyte - just overrated.

He is put on a pedistal as one of the current greats of the game but his record doesn't suggest so.

Aren't you the man who says a striker should be judged by his goals?

Boromart Posted on 29/05/2008 12:16
ROONEY = OVER RATED

12 league goals. They could have won it with Saha in the side instead of Rooney.....I don't think they would have won it if Saha was in instead of Ronaldo!

boroboymike Posted on 29/05/2008 12:19
ROONEY = OVER RATED

Not enough end product. Still living off his performances in Euro 2004 like Lumpard. Should've had a straight red for his 'f' word tirade after his yellow card. Scum.

14 goals in 43 England games.

Crouch has 14 goals in 27 England games playing the same support striker role.

sasboro1 Posted on 29/05/2008 12:21
ROONEY = OVER RATED

12 league goals and 13 assists(3rd top) from 27 league games is pretty good. at the moment he isnt on form. if he could play 38 games he would get about 16/17 league goals

Keverson Posted on 29/05/2008 12:21
ROONEY = OVER RATED

"He was particularly over rated winning the Champions League and the Premiership - again!"

Is Wes Brown overrated?

Leo - that'd be me [:D]. They're both workhorses and their job is to just "put in a shift" and if they pop up with a goal, then great!

I agree with some of the criticism of Gerrard too. Ok so he was all over the place and scored a goal - but (as a Liverpool fan) I agree that he's all about getting involved and isn't at all tactically disciplined, which at times could cost teams.

sasboro1 Posted on 29/05/2008 12:23
ROONEY = OVER RATED

i love this messageboard, people claim that half the manutd team are over rated. bit daft when they have just won the league and champions league

dicky2006 Posted on 29/05/2008 12:26
ROONEY = OVER RATED

"I don't think every team in the world would want Rooney - else they'd be busy tapping him up regardless of price like Ronaldo"

The only reason people r tapping up Ronaldo is cause he keeps coming out saying he doesnt know what the future will hold while Rooney keeps saying he wants to stay at Man Utd for life hmmm who would u tap up?

Sham_Alexander Posted on 29/05/2008 12:37
ROONEY = OVER RATED

Rooney has developed his game into one of a team player and not the out and out striker most people thought he was going to be
Therefore people are always going to be disappointed with his goal ratio which this season was something like 19 goals from 43 games
Not too bad for someone who often gets played out wide a lot

I think he needs to work on his one on ones at lot. Seen various games where hes missed a few decent chances

But if you ask most true Man Utd fans who go to the games and have done for years who they’d rather have in the team out of Rooney and Ronaldo there would be a lot more that opt for Rooney!
The facts speak for themselves when Man Utd only lost 1 game when Rooney was playing and that was against Chelsea

Overall hes definitely not over-rated but can definitely play better than he has been

Keverson Posted on 29/05/2008 12:39
ROONEY = OVER RATED

Half the Man Utd team isn't over-rated, it's down to who you call "world class". Rooney is one example, and I personally don't think he can be regarded in the same category as the likes of Ronaldo, Ribery, Kaka or Messi.

I'd place him on a par with Hargreaves and Carrick who are both valuable players to the club, but wouldn't necessarily walk into any other top team in the world.

Dr_Evil Posted on 29/05/2008 12:41
ROONEY = OVER RATED

Rooney's problem is his positional sense, or lack of it.

If he just did his job, 'in the hole' he would be far more productive.

As it is, he runs deep and creates a huge gap between him and the other forward.

dicky2006 Posted on 29/05/2008 12:44
ROONEY = OVER RATED

Real Madrid
Barcelona
Inter
Ac Milan
Chelsea
Arsenal
etc

He would play for all of them i reckon.

AlBoro1984 Posted on 29/05/2008 12:48
ROONEY = OVER RATED

"Is Wes Brown overrated?"

Good player Wes Brown. It seems to be a bit of a myth that he's S***, when in reality its injury problems that have F***** up his career a bit. He's always been very talented.

Leos_scum Posted on 29/05/2008 12:49
ROONEY = OVER RATED

Keverson, know what you mean about Rooney. Made me giggle!

I'm still not convinced about Gerrard at international level. He's perfect for the premier league; all drive and commitment (and a fair bit of talent obviously), but he doesn't really seem to cut it consistently for England. I'd still pick him ahead of Lampard mind. Midfielders who do well at international level seem to have more composure and intelligence to their game. It's not all bllod and thunder. I hope he does do it for England, cos I enjoy watching him for Liverpool. What d'ya reckon?




dicky2006 Posted on 29/05/2008 12:49
ROONEY = OVER RATED

He is a gd centre half but gets found out at right bk.

Keverson Posted on 29/05/2008 12:52
ROONEY = OVER RATED

You've just named a load of clubs without thinking who he'd replace in the team.

Is he better than Henry/Eto'o/Messi?
Is he better than Kaka?
Is he better than Ibrahimovic/Crespo?
Is he better than Van Nistelrooy/Robinho/Raul?

Players like Evra, Vidic, Ferdinand, Ronaldo and Tevez would all be more likely to break into the top teams than Rooney. All of them have more talent than simply being a workhorse.

If you were to name a World XI, would Rooney even make the bench?

Dr_Evil Posted on 29/05/2008 12:53
ROONEY = OVER RATED

Nope he wouldnt make mine, by a long shot.

He plays for the best team in the world club level and he isnt that great.

OxonBoro Posted on 29/05/2008 12:54
ROONEY = OVER RATED

quite simply

no, no hes not.

Linny Posted on 29/05/2008 12:55
ROONEY = OVER RATED

Wes Brown isn't overrated as people do not go on about him being something special. He's a good defender who know and does his job well.


Rooney is undoubtedly a good a very good player but not as good as the Media make out i'm afraid.

HolgateEnd Posted on 29/05/2008 12:55
ROONEY = OVER RATED

I've heard some total and utter shyte on here in my time, but this one absolutely takes the biscuit.

Rooney not a world class player...? give your head a shake man.

dicky2006 Posted on 29/05/2008 12:56
ROONEY = OVER RATED

Is he better than Henry/Eto'o/Messi?
Is he better than Kaka?
Is he better than Ibrahimovic/Crespo?
Is he better than Van Nistelrooy/Robinho/Raul?

I will start on this list
Henry has been a total flop in Spain and looks past it did u watch Eto against Man Utd very poor and Messi doesnt play in Rooneys position.
U could fit Kaka and Rooney into a team
I dont really watch Italian football anymore but i have never seen Ibrahimovic have a gd game but everyone says he is gd and Crespo did nothing at Chelsea and is getting on a bit.
Raul cant even get into the Spain squad Robinho plays on the wing doesnt he and he could defo play with Ruuuuuuudddddd.

onthemap Posted on 29/05/2008 12:58
ROONEY = OVER RATED

dickys got it about right.
Man Utd are the best club in Europe if not the world and Rooney is one of their best players.

Boromart Posted on 29/05/2008 12:59
ROONEY = OVER RATED

"i love this messageboard, people claim that half the manutd team are over rated. bit daft when they have just won the league and champions league" -- I know Rooney is chubby and Wes Brown is a big lad, but there is no way those two players constitute 'half the manutd team'.

People are questioning his 'galactico/world class' tag. When you look at his goal scoring for England, very poor, and his goal scoring for manure against big clubs or in cup finals, very poor, then it's understandable why many people don't rate him with the Messi and Kakas of this world, at this moment in time.

Of course goalscoring isn't his only strength, he does create, he has the potential to be world class, but he needs to do it more often and in more big games....like Ronaldos has done during the last 18 months.

onthemap Posted on 29/05/2008 13:01
ROONEY = OVER RATED

Boromart
If only Messi and Kaka are better doesn't that make him underated if anything?

Dr_Evil Posted on 29/05/2008 13:02
ROONEY = OVER RATED

Raul cant get in to the Spain squad because he is a spoilt brat.

There are many ifs and buts but the fact is Rooney has not produced consistency for England for ages.

Sleaford Posted on 29/05/2008 13:02
ROONEY = OVER RATED

Still looks like a balding, ginger, freckley mong though.

Keverson Posted on 29/05/2008 13:08
ROONEY = OVER RATED

I think the problem is that he's English, and he's one of the better players out of a bad bunch. And because some people like to believe that England are one of the best footballing countries in the world, it clouds their judgement regarding some of their players.

If he was Italian and played abroad, no-one on here would probably rate him.

Holgate thinks its ridiculous that some people don't regard him as "world class", yet earlier he said that he was man of the match last night because "I like his work rate. He'll tackle back and help out in defence". Ronaldo does nothing like that, and he's probably the best player in the world.

OxonBoro Posted on 29/05/2008 13:12
ROONEY = OVER RATED


s he better than Henry/Eto'o/Messi?

Yes first 2, not Messi

Is he better than Kaka?

He's not a centre mid ?

Is he better than Ibrahimovic/Crespo?

Are you taking the P***, of course he is

Is he better than Van Nistelrooy/Robinho/Raul?

Not as good a goalscorer as Ruud but as good a player, robinho is very hit and miss (not sure), Raul Yes by a long shot

flyermetothemoon Posted on 29/05/2008 13:18
ROONEY = OVER RATED

Would Rooney get in a world 11 based on International performances? No

Would not be in my Engalnd 11 based on recent performances.

What did he do against Chelsea in the Champions League. Sweet FA.

Rooney = Overrated!!!!!!!

Holgatewall Posted on 29/05/2008 13:19
ROONEY = OVER RATED

Keverson- Rooney and Ronaldo are different types of player, thats why they gel so well for Man Utd. As a footballer, Rooney is nowhere near as talented and gifted as Ronaldo; but he does contribute a great deal to the Man Utd team.


Linny Posted on 29/05/2008 13:22
ROONEY = OVER RATED

"Is he better than Henry/Eto'o/Messi?

Yes first 2, not Messi"

The same Henry that outscored him year in, year out in the Premiership?

somethingtodowithdeath Posted on 29/05/2008 13:23
ROONEY = OVER RATED

Personally I feel sorry for Rooney, generally he has not deivered for England and I think the main problem is not him but the lack of quality/balance in the midfield.

If Lampard continues to play then we have no chance, none at all.

It looks like Downing will not get a regular place, and that makes my heart bleed. As we do not have ONE regularly fit quality striker the options he would give us are invaluable.

Overall, the England squad are over rated, totally.

dicky2006 Posted on 29/05/2008 13:24
ROONEY = OVER RATED

No the same Henry that was fading away in his last season at Arsenal in which the best manager in the world saw and took Barca for mugs cause he has been P*** poor for them.

OxonBoro Posted on 29/05/2008 13:28
ROONEY = OVER RATED

Linny

Yes the very same

im sure yakubu probably outscored him who would you rather have ?

Linny Posted on 29/05/2008 13:33
ROONEY = OVER RATED

Out of Yak and Rooney? I'd have Rooney, like i have said he is an excellent player but not as good as made out and his record backs this up.

Out of Rooney and Henry? Henry. Still a class act. One reletively poor season at a new club, in a different system, in a new country does not change this.

Libbins Posted on 29/05/2008 13:34
ROONEY = OVER RATED

Hang about...

Has someone said Wayne Rooney is better than Thierry Henry?

dicky2006 Posted on 29/05/2008 13:34
ROONEY = OVER RATED

Now he is yes.

Boromart Posted on 29/05/2008 13:35
ROONEY = OVER RATED

onthemap, where did I say ONLY Messi and Kaka are better?

OxonBoro Posted on 29/05/2008 13:36
ROONEY = OVER RATED


Totally different players but yes i think most managers would rather have rooney than henry now

Boromart Posted on 29/05/2008 13:41
ROONEY = OVER RATED

but a manager would have Rooney, because of potential and the age differance, not because of current ability.

Hypothetical question - If Boro had the chance to sign Rooney or Messi (for free, same wages, and we had to release them for free after 2 years) who would we pick?

My answer: It would take about 1/2 a nano-second to decide on Messi. He is a far superior player.

Hypothetical question number 2 - same scenario but Rooney and Henry.

My answer - I would chose Henry, does his PRIMARY scoring job better than Rooney does his PRIMARY creating job. Henry does his SECONDARY creative job as well as Rooney does his SECONDARY scoring.

Tony_Drago Posted on 29/05/2008 13:41
ROONEY = OVER RATED

"Raul cant get in to the Spain squad because he is a spoilt brat."

Explain please...

Sleaford Posted on 29/05/2008 13:41
ROONEY = OVER RATED

Rather than making Gareth choose Rooney over Henry, he should simply sign them both, as cover for Ali and Tuncay.

Sleaford Posted on 29/05/2008 13:44
ROONEY = OVER RATED

Our latest TEAMtalk Soccers award is for the Unsung Hero of the Year, with Simon Wilkes opting for Manchester United's Wes Brown.

The 28-year-old defender signed a new five-year contract at Old Trafford in April, and has this season laid down his marker to become United's first-choice right-back for years to come.

Classy centre-backs Nemanja Vidic and Rio Ferdinand have garnered most of the praise for United's rock-solid defence - but Brown ensured Gary Neville's injury problems did not derail their trophy bid, and ended the season with his hands on the Premier League and Champions League silverware.

Brown featured in 34 of United's 38 league games and was a mainstay of their European line-up - and his fine form also caught the eye of England coach Fabio Capello, who started him at right-back in friendlies against Switzerland, France and USA.


sasboro1 Posted on 29/05/2008 13:44
ROONEY = OVER RATED

rooney over rated? i dont think so. jsut look at how many goals he has scored already in his career.

as if boro would ever get a chance of signing messi or rooney in their prime. Why not chuck in ronaldo too. another over rated manutd player?
is anyone at manutd not over rated?

sheriff_john_bunnell Posted on 29/05/2008 13:46
ROONEY = OVER RATED

The only England player I would call world class. on a par with ronaldo. has been poor for England of late though. mebees needs a kick up the arse. have those critisizing him actually seen him play live? he's on a different plane to someone like gerrard or owen who are only very very good players. The touch, vision and movement set him apart. I remember watching england play at old trafford, sitting miles up in the air and seeing the whole pitch. When you have that view you can see passes that the players on the ground arent aware of. Rooney was the only one who not only spots them but plays them perfectly. Ericsson was right to single him out in his final interview as england boss.

Boromart Posted on 29/05/2008 13:47
ROONEY = OVER RATED

sas, don't you understand the word hypothetical, or are you trying a really lame bit of fishing?

Just answer the question and say why you came out with those conclusions.

sasboro1 Posted on 29/05/2008 13:49
ROONEY = OVER RATED

its just a daft thread, from start to finish really. rooney is going through a bit of poor form but he still is world class and not over rated. just look at his stats! yes he plays for manutd but manutd are up at the top because they sign players like rooney.

flyermetothemoon Posted on 29/05/2008 13:51
ROONEY = OVER RATED

Shearer in his prime or Rooney.

Sheringham or Rooney.

Rooney over hyped & over paid.

dicky2006 Posted on 29/05/2008 13:53
ROONEY = OVER RATED

What u bringing up past players for?

Shearer is overrated cause he wasnt as gd as Pele, there.

Tony_Drago Posted on 29/05/2008 13:54
ROONEY = OVER RATED

Rooney is a lot better than Sheringham was in his prime.

Boromart Posted on 29/05/2008 13:55
ROONEY = OVER RATED

sas, some would argue that his poor form has lasted about 18-24 months, thats about half his career. Why is it a 'silly' thread, because people have a differing opinion to you?

flyermetothemoon Posted on 29/05/2008 13:57
ROONEY = OVER RATED

Dicky

Just making a point that as a centre forward for England, i know who i would rather have.

dicky2006 Posted on 29/05/2008 13:58
ROONEY = OVER RATED

There a bit old now arnt they :)

Holgatewall Posted on 29/05/2008 13:59
ROONEY = OVER RATED

So if we left Rooney out of the England Team; who would we put in to replace him?

flyermetothemoon Posted on 29/05/2008 13:59
ROONEY = OVER RATED

Owen & Ashton

OxonBoro Posted on 29/05/2008 14:00
ROONEY = OVER RATED

My opnion is obviously different to some on here i think rooney is world class and there a few better than him in the world at the moment

I would take rooney over henry

and i think hes a lot better than sheringham was and i think if he played up front with a striker like shearer we would see just how good he was

sasboro1 Posted on 29/05/2008 14:00
ROONEY = OVER RATED

"sas, some would argue that his poor form has lasted about 18-24 months"

if that was the case then why has he still got a decent goals record this season? last 2 season he gets a goal every about 2.3 games. infact the last 2 years goals ratio is better than before that. I just dont fall for he is over rated.

people on here think over half the manutd team are over rated, makes you wonder how they won the leageu and champions league

Holgatewall Posted on 29/05/2008 14:03
ROONEY = OVER RATED

Owen is a great player who i think could play in the side with Rooney; but Ashton is really not good enough for intrnational football; although i'm sure he will be given his chance.

dicky2006 Posted on 29/05/2008 14:04
ROONEY = OVER RATED

Ashton F*** me ive heard it all now is Bobby Zamora English LMAO.

wilkos_perm Posted on 29/05/2008 14:04
ROONEY = OVER RATED

Rooney is absolutely top class. Anybody who understands the game can see his vision and passing is world class.
He had a quiet game in the Champs League final but there were still two tope quality moments, an great crossfield diagonal ball to Ronaldo and a superb ball to Tevez that he should have slotted in.

Big_Shot Posted on 29/05/2008 14:07
ROONEY = OVER RATED

17, 19, 23, 18

Rooney goal tally in all competitions for Man Utd in his 4 seasons there.

Boromart Posted on 29/05/2008 14:07
ROONEY = OVER RATED

because he plays alongside the best player in the world who creates lots of chances for him.

I'v enever said he isn't a brilliant player, but i think people have been brainwashed by the English media, and by his fast start for England into thinking he is on the same level as players like Messi, Ronaldo, Ribery, Kaka, Henry.

Rooney has never sustained a level of performance that those players have. He has done it in the odd game, but usually against the poorer sides. He scores most of his goals against the Newcastle, Boro, Fulham teamsrarely against the big 4, or foreign powerhouses.

Boromart Posted on 29/05/2008 14:08
ROONEY = OVER RATED

league - 11, 16, 14, 12

To only break 15 league goals ONCE in 4 seasons, as a star striker for the best side in the country, an attack minded side, says an awful lot about him.

flyermetothemoon Posted on 29/05/2008 14:09
ROONEY = OVER RATED

Turns to the pavillion with raised bat in hands!!!

Boromart Posted on 29/05/2008 14:10
ROONEY = OVER RATED

"people on here think over half the manutd team are over rated" - Sas do Manure only play with 4 players on the pitch?

Big_Shot Posted on 29/05/2008 14:10
ROONEY = OVER RATED

A star striker? He's never been an out and out striker though.

Holgatewall Posted on 29/05/2008 14:11
ROONEY = OVER RATED

[;)]
Big shot's got it in one;he's not an out and out striker.

sasboro1 Posted on 29/05/2008 14:12
ROONEY = OVER RATED

ok boromart who is over rated and not over rated in the manutd team?

manutd are where they are because most of them are top players.

bosshogg Posted on 29/05/2008 14:13
ROONEY = OVER RATED

Over-hyped, yes, but not overrated!

wilkos_perm Posted on 29/05/2008 14:13
ROONEY = OVER RATED

it is ludicrous to suggest that a player who has played most games for a team that has won the championship and the champions league only does it in 'the odd game'.

Of course he has better success against the poorer sides. The big games are settled by one pass or one mistake generally, its unlikely that someone is going to bang in a few goals in those games. In fact until the last couple of games it was claimed Ronaldo didn't perform in the big games.

Boromart Posted on 29/05/2008 14:16
ROONEY = OVER RATED

Sas I'm not goign to gothrough every manure player and say who is over-rated. Most of them are excellant players, one or two of them are at the top of their profession. Most of them are just beneath the top.

IMO, Ferdinand is world class, there are few better than him, if any in his position. He makes the game look easy.

If you were to have a match with the best 22 players in the world on theh pitch, Ferdi would be in it....Rooney wouldn't, at this moment in time. He needs to learn better positional discipline then he has a chance.


Boromart Posted on 29/05/2008 14:19
ROONEY = OVER RATED

wilkos_perm, by 'does it in the odd game' I mean put in a truly world class performance. Most of the time he plays very well in those games, but he only occassionally puts a team to the sword single handedly....unlike Ronaldo who has done that on numerous occassions this year.

sheriff_john_bunnell Posted on 29/05/2008 14:19
ROONEY = OVER RATED

the same flat track bully critscm was levelled at Henry and recently at Ronaldo. Ronaldo's form for portugal has hardly set the world alight. perhaps he is only looking good when he plays alongside rooney.
The game of football is not about merely goals assists possession percentages or any such nonsence. that said he could do with working on his finishing.

Keverson Posted on 29/05/2008 14:20
ROONEY = OVER RATED

He is over-rated [:)]

If he can develop his mentality into something more than just being a headless chicken, he can become world class. At the moment, he's just a good player.

Tevez and Torres are two Premiership strikers who like to press defenders. However, the pair of them know when to stop and let the midfield deal with it. Rooney doesn't, he just chases and chases. If he can learn when to stop pressing, and stay further up field, then he may improve his attacking ability and get a few more goals.

As I said, it's the English mentality of playing at 100 miles an hour rather than being clever with the ball which is why England always fail in international tournaments.

Gerrard has been moved from pillar to post during Benitez's reign because he doesn't have the tactical discipline to play a holding midfielder role - that's why he's now playing second striker.

Boromart Posted on 29/05/2008 14:22
ROONEY = OVER RATED

I guess a lot of htis discussion has to do with how you define 'world class'. For me you need to be one of the top 2 or 3 people in your position in the world. I don't think Rooney is one of hte top 2 or 3 forwards in the world. He has the potential to get to that level, there is no doubt about that, but he isn't there yet.

"Tevez and Torres are two Premiership strikers who like to press defenders. However, the pair of them know when to stop and let the midfield deal with it. " -- Spot on Keverson, he needs to learn to expend his enrgies in the last third. By tracking someone all the way back to our leftback spot before chopping them down he wastes energy that could be used for 3 or 4 forward runs. I despair when I see him do that, it's a waste of his talent.

Spot on about Gerrard too. When played centre mid with Lampard. Lamps plays attacking mid, and Gerrard is supposed to stay goalside of the ball, central and protect the back 4, but he isn't disciplined enough to do it.

Regarding scoring stats sas, 'the fading light' Henry has a better scoring rate for Barca, than 'not off form' Rooney in the best team in Europe. I guess I would still take Henry.

Tony_Drago Posted on 29/05/2008 14:23
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Gerrard is not a holding midfielders ffs. Rooney is better than Tevez.

Holgatewall Posted on 29/05/2008 14:27
ROONEY = OVER RATED

Nobody (including Fergie and Cappello) will ever change the way Rooney plays. If they did try to change him he wouldn't be half the player he is today.

He has a natural talent; he plays the way he feels; and I believe that eventually he will settle down and be a truely great player.

Libbins Posted on 29/05/2008 14:27
ROONEY = OVER RATED

Keverson, I agree, but something is telling me that we're wrong if Ferguson hasn't noticed this about his 1st choice striker but we have...

Keverson Posted on 29/05/2008 14:34
ROONEY = OVER RATED

Perhaps we'll see a better season from him next season as Fergie's priority is bringing in a striker to lead the line.

Holgatewall Posted on 29/05/2008 14:37
ROONEY = OVER RATED

Fergie bringing in another striker; that's all we need [:D]

Libbins Posted on 29/05/2008 14:39
ROONEY = OVER RATED

Huntlaar.

I like this player but Man U will buy him and then I won't like him anymore.

Like what they did with Hargreaves.

Blain87 Posted on 29/05/2008 14:41
ROONEY = OVER RATED

Rooney is a world class player because he has just won PL and CL medals

What a load of B*******.

Man Utd's success this season has been mainly due to Ronaldo having the best season I've ever seen anyone have. Replace Ronaldo with any other 'winger' like Hleb, Nani, Petrov, Bentley, Downing and even Ronaldo of last year and Rooney would have ended the season empty handed.

Hes a very good player but hes not world class. There are a dozen better attacking players than him.

Mavrick Posted on 29/05/2008 14:41
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His best days are so far behind him that he would only walk into every other team in this league!

Big_Shot Posted on 29/05/2008 14:59
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'and even Ronaldo of last year and Rooney would have ended the season empty handed.'

They won the league last season with the Ronaldo of last season.

smally Posted on 29/05/2008 15:00
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I had to stop reading and start writing once someone compared rooney to dirk kuyt

what a load of s***e

rooney is world class full stop

however, he gets on my tits because he always tries to chip the keeper when he should just smash it in like big alan shearer used to do.

capello hit the nail on the head when he said rooney does too much so he's not fresh in front of goal

Keverson Posted on 29/05/2008 15:04
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Smally - what's wrong with Kuyt?

smally Posted on 29/05/2008 15:08
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not much matey but he's not in the same class as rooney and you know that

so for him to be labelled a angry kuyt is crazy

skiprat Posted on 29/05/2008 15:09
ROONEY = OVER RATED

As usual on FMTTM the discussion seems to only be seen in black and white.

I don't think anyone on here is saying that Rooney is S***e and should be dropped from the England team, or that he hasn't contributed to Man U's trophies this season, what people are saying are is he as good as Kaka, Messi, Ribery who he seems to be grouped with?

A resounding no from me. He's still a brilliant player, but some way off the World Beating, World Class stage like those three are.

Boromart Posted on 29/05/2008 15:10
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smally you have just identified too major faults with Rooneys game - his finishing/shot selection and his ability to waste nergy in the wrong areas of the pitch. Surely this deters him from being world class?

skippy why couldn't you come into this debate earlier, someone who can see exactly what I am saying without trying to twist it into something else.

Keverson Posted on 29/05/2008 15:13
ROONEY = OVER RATED

The only reason I mention Kuyt is that they are similar types of player. Pop up with the odd goal, and seem to get by on work ethic alone.

I know that Rooney has much better technique and is a more dangerous player than Kuyt, I just find their main qualities are similar (which is why I compare the two).

boro_dan89 Posted on 29/05/2008 15:14
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"his best days are well and truely behind him"

His in his early 20's, if anything his best days are a head of him :s

but yeah his over rated. 30 million striker and how many goals has he scored ?

smally Posted on 29/05/2008 15:16
ROONEY = OVER RATED

them 2 faults can easily be rectified boromat, and no they do not stop him from being world class. His passing, assists, natural footballing ability make him world class

skippy ribery is no where near world class! how did u come to that conclusion. he's world class when it comes to the ugliest footballers and that is it

Big_Shot Posted on 29/05/2008 15:19
ROONEY = OVER RATED

Aye, its interesting how Ribery is afforded the World Class tag though. He's a cracking player, its just strange that a player most hadn't heard of 2 seasons back is now World Class.

boro_dan89 Posted on 29/05/2008 15:20
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ribery and rooney are in the same boat there smally

skiprat Posted on 29/05/2008 15:22
ROONEY = OVER RATED

Maybe Ribery was pushing it a bit, but my point still stands Rooney isn't at that top level that say Zidane and Ronaldinho a few years ago was, despite what the English press say.

I posted more because it seems as if people think others are saying Rooney is S***, which they're not.

smally Posted on 29/05/2008 15:22
ROONEY = OVER RATED

for me, ribery couldn't lace my boots never mind rooneys

sasboro1 Posted on 29/05/2008 15:25
ROONEY = OVER RATED

skiprat since when has anyone said rooney is the best player in the world?

rooney is world class and not over rated. his goals, assists and general work rate prove this.

Big_Shot Posted on 29/05/2008 15:31
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A little? I'm not being funny but you'll have barely saw much of Ribery, certainly not at the top level, yet your naming him as a world beater. If you saying he is, then you can't possibly argue against Rooney.

Holgatewall Posted on 29/05/2008 15:37
ROONEY = OVER RATED

Rooney needs someone with him that he can get a partnership with. He needs Michael Owen to be back to full fitness and back in the England team. Defoe is not good enough and this is effecting Rooney's game when he plays for England. I still say Rooney is not an out and out striker which is why I want Owen to be in the side with him.

As for Ronaldo; he's probably the best player in the world at the moment but I bet he will give a lot of credit to Rooney for the ammount of assists this season.

skiprat Posted on 29/05/2008 15:39
ROONEY = OVER RATED

Sas - No one has, what the fook are you talking about as normal? He DOES get included in similar groups of players like that though, when he's still someway off that level.

sheriff_john_bunnell Posted on 29/05/2008 15:39
ROONEY = OVER RATED

to the folk saying that rooneys all round game takes away from his abilities as a striker - what tosh. I want Rooney coming and picking the ball up from the back four and battling for the ball on the wing. its what he's good at. If you want a goalscorer look no further than Michael Owen.
to me the english problem is not about believing all our players are world class - its not recognising when we have a proper gem on our hands and wasting their talent by playing them in a straightjacket.

Boromart Posted on 29/05/2008 15:52
ROONEY = OVER RATED

"I'm not being funny but you'll have barely saw much of Ribery," -- I know that wasnt addressed at me, but I've been watching Ribery for about 6 or 7 years (U21/U20 competition IIRC) and could see even back then he would be a star. He hasn't quite acheived what he should with his talent.

I don't think he is world class yet, but I would still rate him above Rooney.

your right sheriff he is a gem, but he needs polishing to be on a par with Messi, kaka, Raul and the rest. Regarding his al round ability taking away from his role as a striker, you don't see many strikers scoring from their own half, thats the point. He might be good at that stuff, but let others do it, strikers tend to score int he last 3rd of the pitch, so get up there, let Hargreaves and Gerrard do the chasing and tackling.

Thats why England falter at any decent level. The Rooneys and Gerrards get frustrated. Rooney starts chasing back into midfield trying to do everything himself. Gerrard goes walkabout up field trying to score himself. what you end up with is a poor international striker in Gerrard and a poor international midfielder in Rooney.

skiprat Posted on 29/05/2008 15:55
ROONEY = OVER RATED

What I have seen of Ribery (and it's a fair bit to be honest B_S before you get all uppity again) he looks a better player than Rooney and I've obviously seen a fair bit of Rooney also.

What Rooney does have with him is time to improve to be right up with the best in the World, but the worse thing about his game is his agression and how he channels it, will he change this as he gets older? I doubt it.

sasboro1 Posted on 29/05/2008 16:00
ROONEY = OVER RATED

Skiprat do you never remember what you posted in previously. you were banging on about zidane and ronaldinhio who were the worlds best player a few years ago. like i said no one is claiming he is the worlds best just world class. i think you are confusing him with ronaldo who is the worlds best now

Big_Shot Posted on 29/05/2008 16:06
ROONEY = OVER RATED

Uppity, not really, just a bit surprised that he was one of the names you plucked out of the air whilst on about world class players. 3 international goals, Bundesliga is the highest level he's played at, never made any CL impact. He just doesn't seem to tick many 'world class' boxes. Good player from what I've saw, but need to up his game a lot to be lumped in with Messi and Ronaldo. I just thought you can't have saw much of him if you have him up there with the very best. If you have, then it surprises me even more.

wilkos_perm Posted on 29/05/2008 16:07
ROONEY = OVER RATED

the comparison with Dirk Kuyt is possibly one of the strangest things ive ever read on here.

It would have been like comparing Curtis Fleming and Cafu, based on the fact they both work hard.

sasboro1 Posted on 29/05/2008 16:08
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nearly as bad as morrison getting compared to messi. forgot who did that.

wilkos_perm Posted on 29/05/2008 16:13
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was it not Adam Johnson and Messi? Not that it isnt equally as ludicrous

flyermetothemoon Posted on 29/05/2008 16:20
ROONEY = OVER RATED

I will stick to my original statement.

Cost us in the world cup being sent off against Portugal and gave the pen away against Russia.Cost us a place in Euro 2008
Should have been nowhere near their box.Some people think that running around like a chicken with no head is a strength
He is a liability for England.

dicky2006 Posted on 29/05/2008 16:24
ROONEY = OVER RATED

What your over looking is the fact that Mac stuck Rooney onto the left wing and played a 4-5-1 formation as soon as Rooney scored that cracker of a goal.

Big_Shot Posted on 29/05/2008 16:27
ROONEY = OVER RATED

I'd say the home defeat to Croatia, and draws against Macedonia and Israel cost us. Not a narrow defeat on a plastic pitch in Russia. Mind you if Gerrard had put that sitter away, or Robinson not palmed the ball to the striker.

wilkos_perm Posted on 29/05/2008 16:27
ROONEY = OVER RATED

he isn't a liability at all, he's our only chance of supplying a bit of magic to win a big game.

As for the sending off, that was a couple of years ago now and he was still only a young lad at the time.

Blain87 Posted on 29/05/2008 18:09
ROONEY = OVER RATED

'and even Ronaldo of last year and Rooney would have ended the season empty handed.'

They won the league last season with the Ronaldo of last season.

Thats true Big_Shot, very observant. But if Ronaldo had scored 20 goals less are you seriously saying Manchester United would have won the PL and CL?

Reading this thread, it seems people need to clarify what they consider to be 'World Class'. I consider World Class to mean the player would get into my World XI or even a squad of 23. It seems that some people consider a player to only be world class if they are the best player in the world or one of the best 3 in their position or one of the best half a dozen in the world.

Big_Shot Posted on 29/05/2008 18:31
ROONEY = OVER RATED

I'm just highlighting quite a massive flaw in what you posted. Who knows maybe they would have won the league if he had scored 20 less goals.

Lets look at last season then. He scored 14 less league goals, and their nearest rivals top striker, Drogba, scored quite a few more (12 more to be precise). And their PL winning margin was bigger than it was this season, and they won more games and scored more goals. So yes last season proved that they could win the league with less goals from Ronaldo, it can't be argued against. No Tevez also. They did fall short in the CL though. But I think that was down to a poor one off performance and catching an ageing Milan side on a good day. He never scored in the semi final this season. And they gave Roma a far bigger battering the previous round.

As for 'World Class', its a nothing term that can mean whatever you want. As for your World XI opinion, so do you mean you class the best right back as World Class, but not the 3rd best striker as he wouldn't be in your World XI.

Hercules Posted on 29/05/2008 18:41
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'Who knows maybe they would have won the league if he had scored 20 less goals.'

Erm...no they wouldn't. If you can show me a list of 14 goals Ronaldo has scored this year where league points would not have been dropped if he had not scored them then your point is valid. I have no idea if it is possible to compile such a list but I'd bet its not.

Don't know why you are talking about Drogba's tally. The alternative reality we were considering was if Ronaldo scored less goals, not Drogba scoring more or less.

I would class Dani Alves as world class, yes. Not sure about the third best striker as he would still get into the 23 man squad but probably not in the XI.

I only brought up the definition of the term as people could quite easily be arguing over something they are in agreement over. For example, two people consider Rooney to be in the top 20 players in the world but one considers world class to be the best 2 or 3 players, while the other considers the top 50 players in the world to be world class.

Big_Shot Posted on 29/05/2008 19:00
ROONEY = OVER RATED

My point is pretty simple here. They won the league last season(06/07) with Ronaldo scoring considerably less goals, when initially this guy said they wouldn't have won the league this season(07/08) with the Ronaldo of the 06/07 season. But they did, its the same player. Hypothetical situations are just that, things that haven't happened. So if you say oh lets take away 20 of Ronaldo goals, then why not take 10 of Lampards or whoevers just to even things up. Its hypothetical, its not real. Its like Merson saying without Viduka and Yakubu we'd have went down.

But anyway lets take another 6 from his tally last season then(06/07). 1 each from the games against Fulham, Bolton, Portsmouth, Everton, Man City and Villa. All 6 games still won, Ronaldo only scored 10 further goals, and Man Utd won the league by 6 points. Nothing hypothetical just facts from last season.

As for Drogba's tally its pretty straightforward. He scored conisderably more the season before last than last season whilst Ronaldo scored considerably more last season. So even when Chelseas top scorer outscored Ronaldo then Man Utd still won the league.


Big_Shot Posted on 29/05/2008 19:02
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Oh and your other point, I can think of 5 goals in 2 games against Newcastle that they would have still won without his goals.

Blain87 Posted on 29/05/2008 19:27
ROONEY = OVER RATED

The hypothetical situation I asked people to consider was Ronaldo scoring alot less goals than he did. I didn't say consider the implications of Ronaldo scoring a lot less goals and then make up another load of changes to the hypothetical situation.

So am I correct in saying that:

If Ronaldo had performed in 07/08 PL season as he did in the 06/07 PL season (A difference of 14 goals, you say) and every other players performances remained the same, Manchester United would not have won the Premier League?

Yes I am.

It is a FACT that Ronaldo's goals won Manchester United PL points which without those goals they would have otherwise dropped, costing them the title.

Really don't see why you are so against this statement of fact. Ronaldo's performance does not detract or add to Wayne Rooney's ability.

Big_Shot Posted on 29/05/2008 19:37
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Its hypothetical though, its not real. He did score those goals, but even if he didn't there's nothing to suggest the games wouldn't have still finished how they did, hypothetical is hypothetical there's no boundaries. Although I do reckon you could take a particular 14 goals from his 31 and Man Utd would still win the same amount of games, like I say 5 goals in 2 wins spring to mind. Check it out if you want to be proved correct, hypothetically of course. They actually won the league with the Ronaldo of 06/07 which is good enough for me.

Jonny_Ingbar Posted on 29/05/2008 19:40
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I cant believe that this debate has lasted 156 posts.


Big_Shot Posted on 29/05/2008 19:41
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I can't. All I did was point out quite a big flaw in his statement.

Blain87 Posted on 29/05/2008 19:41
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Show me 14 goals he scored where if he had not the result would have remained the same.

Even if you can you can't say he would not have scored the inconsequential goals and he would have scored the goals in the victories by single goal margins.

If you follow through on your logic it is impossible to consider any hypothetical situation and give a judgement or opinion on the likely outcome of the hypothetical situation.

the_throcking_man Posted on 29/05/2008 19:42
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Rooney assisted or scored in about 25 league goals. maybe if he hadn't been playing manutd might not have won the league. same as ronaldo then? we can pick any player out who has contributed over the season.

Blain87 Posted on 29/05/2008 19:44
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Thats about standard for Rooney.

Ronaldo had an exceptional season. If he had not then Man Utd wouldn't have won the league.

the_throcking_man Posted on 29/05/2008 19:52
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you can say that about any player. what about their goalkeeper without him they may not have won the champions league or a different keeper let in more goals in crucial games. what about ferdinand or scholes or giggs. the list can go on.

Do you remember manutd winning the cup against bayern munich without Keane?

Big_Shot Posted on 29/05/2008 19:55
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You can certainly consider hypothetical situations but you can't draw conclusions from them because its not real. But when doing so why stop at Ronaldos goals, if he didn't score them then maybe someone else did.

As for showing you 14 goals, I don't need to I'm satisfied that they would have won the league just like the did in 06/07 with the 06/07 Ronaldo. You're the one who is bringing hypothetical situations here, I'm going from real events from the season before. Prove me wrong, show me that there weren't 14 goals or more that without wouldn't have made any difference to them winning the title.

sheriff_john_bunnell Posted on 29/05/2008 20:01
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blimey and i thought using opta stats were a ridiculous way of determining how good a player is. we're verging on string theory now.


Link: in one reality arca can play left back

Blain87 Posted on 29/05/2008 20:46
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'But when doing so why stop at Ronaldos goals, if he didn't score them then maybe someone else did.'

I asked people to consider what the implications of Ronaldo not performing to the same level would be. Not what the implications of Ronaldo performing to a lesser extent and other players performing to a higher standard.

'I don't need to I'm satisfied that they would have won the league just like the did in 06/07 with the 06/07 Ronaldo.'

In 06/07 Manchester United had 89 points and Chelsea had 83 points. In 07/08 Man U had 87 and Chelsea had 85.

It is a fact that Chelsea played better in 07/08 than 06/07. It cannot be disputed as they won more points.

Man U won the league in 06/07 with the 06/07 Ronaldo.

The 07/08 Ronaldo is widely regarded as being a much improved player. He scored 23 goals in 06/07 and 42 in 07/08. Surely you cannot deny he is a much better player in 07/08.

This must mean that the rest of the Man U team as a whole, Ronaldo excluded, must have played worse in 07/08 than they did in 06/07.

Are you saying Ronaldo's improvement in 07/08 compared to 06/07 is not worth 3 points, which Man U would have to have dropped in order for Chelsea to win the league in 07/08?

Surely his improvement was worth more than 3 points. Therefore if he had not improved to such an extent and continued to perform at the same level as he did in 06/07 then Manchester United would not have won the league.

Big_Shot Posted on 29/05/2008 20:51
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So you've checked and I was right then. Hypothetical aren't worth much discussion.

Blain87 Posted on 29/05/2008 20:52
ROONEY = OVER RATED

Right about what?

jumpers4goalposts Posted on 29/05/2008 22:13
ROONEY = OVER RATED

excellent player but very over rated, you mention teams he could possibly pay for but most of those clubs have players that are built on media reputations.

Big_Shot Posted on 29/05/2008 22:53
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Right about there being at least 14 Ronaldo goals last season that weren't critical in Man Utd winning games. I'm assuming you've checked and found out it to be correct due to your ignoring of it.

Thats the end of it. They won the league in 06/07 with Ronaldo scoring 17 goals, and less than 17 of his goals last season were critical is Man Utd winning games.

So in conculsion, Man Utd COULD have won the league in 07/08 with the Ronaldo of 06/07.

Hercules Posted on 29/05/2008 22:58
ROONEY = OVER RATED

There were more than 14 inconsequential goals so if you could hand pick which goals were discounted Manchester United could have still won the league.

But you could also hand pick goals which would have United finishing 4th. If the goals discounted were chosen at random Man Utd would win the league less often than not as it would only need one game to go the other way for Man U.

So in conlusion, no you are wrong in saying that Manchester United WOULD win the league had Ronaldo played at the same level he did in 06/07. There is a possibility but not a probablity.

Big_Shot Posted on 29/05/2008 23:00
ROONEY = OVER RATED

Thats why I said COULD not WOULD. Please read carefully.

Hercules Posted on 29/05/2008 23:01
ROONEY = OVER RATED

'I don't need to I'm satisfied that they would have won the league just like the did in 06/07 with the 06/07 Ronaldo.'

Big_Shot Posted on 29/05/2008 23:02
ROONEY = OVER RATED

Yes, thats right. I was satisfied. Its a personal opinion, I think they would have done. Like I think they will next season.

hoija39 Posted on 29/05/2008 23:03
ROONEY = OVER RATED

I would just like to add my 2 cents on Rooney, and throw this into the mixer:

I believe that the main reason Rooney is not the same player that we saw when he first burst on the scene is actually because of his weight.

If you go on youtube now, and look at him in an everton shirt, he is ALOT slimmer, and has pace to burn. He looks very exciting to watch, as he indeed he was.

I don't know when it was, but he suddenly turned very big. Now, we are used to seeing him as quite a big-framed bloke - some would even say overweight. If you look at his face - it is undoubtedly bloated, and he boasts a double-chin for sure. The flipside is that he is definitely stronger, and we often see him barging 6ft defenders out of the way.

He has, however, as a result, lost ALOT of pace. Some of this may be down to injury, but undoubtedly, when a guy is heavier, he's going to be slower.

Now many will come back and say that Rooney is just bigger because he's gotten older and thats the way his body has matured. I would still insist though, that he his carrying to much weight. I would like to see him lose a lot more weight - and only then do I believe we will see the kind of player that we all used to enjoy watching.

Hercules Posted on 29/05/2008 23:05
ROONEY = OVER RATED

Your opinion is they would have. Mine is that they wouldn't have. Its been established that my opinion is more likely to have became reality had Ronaldo performed at the same level in 07/08 as he did in 06/07.

Possibility of yours.

Probability of mine.

Big_Shot Posted on 29/05/2008 23:09
ROONEY = OVER RATED

But he didn't though, he scored 31 and they won the league. Thats the reality. Possibility, probability, nah reality will do for me. Blain said they wouldn't have won the league with Ronaldo of 06/07, we all know that thats not quite correct. Thats it.

Hercules Posted on 29/05/2008 23:12
ROONEY = OVER RATED

But he didn't though

Lol. Thats why I said IF he performed at the same level. We were not speaking in the context of reality, but within the peramaters of an alternative hypothetical situation. If you read this board often, you will see it is largely populated by people talking about hypothetical situations.

Big_Shot Posted on 29/05/2008 23:16
ROONEY = OVER RATED

'Man Utd's success this season has been mainly due to Ronaldo having the best season I've ever seen anyone have. Replace Ronaldo with any other 'winger' like Hleb, Nani, Petrov, Bentley, Downing and even Ronaldo of last year and Rooney would have ended the season empty handed.'

Thats his quote from earlier, and where this whole thing started from. All I did was point out that they won the league last season with that 'Ronaldo from last season'. Which degenerated into all this nonsense. We now can all season that they COULD have won the league this season with the 06/07 season. Thats all my point was.

Hercules Posted on 29/05/2008 23:21
ROONEY = OVER RATED

Rooney would more than likely have ended the season empty handed. Ronaldo scored 19 less goals in 06/07 so if he had continued that form in 07/08 somewhere along the line it is highly likely that one of the goals Ronaldo didn't score in the hypothetical situation would have cost United league points (therefore the title) and it is also likely that one of Ronaldo's 8(?) CL goals would have to be discounted, meaning Man U would not win the CL in the alternate situation.

Big_Shot Posted on 29/05/2008 23:25
ROONEY = OVER RATED

Thats the things though, he never said likely, he said they wouldn't have. Which simply isn't true.

But what if Alves had hypothetically equalised at Stamford Bridge. And Chelsea's dubious penalty had been hypothetically not awarded against Man Utd.


Hercules Posted on 29/05/2008 23:28
ROONEY = OVER RATED

It is more correct to say they wouldn't have than they would have.

'But what if Alves had hypothetically equalised at Stamford Bridge. And Chelsea's dubious penalty had been hypothetically not awarded against Man Utd.'

The gap would have been bigger. But we were not discussing what would happen under those circumstances were we?

I hate being involved in 'who said what' threads.

Big_Shot Posted on 29/05/2008 23:29
ROONEY = OVER RATED

Its either correct or incorrect, theres no degrees of correctness.

Was he wrong is saying that, Yes or No?

Hercules Posted on 29/05/2008 23:35
ROONEY = OVER RATED

It is incorrect to say Manchester United would have won the league.

It is incorrect to say that Manchester United would not have won the league.

Under those particular circumstances the chances of Manchester United not winning the league are significantly higher than the chances of them winning the league.

In conlclusion I was wrong as there is no way I of proving that they would not have won the league and you were also wrong as there is no way of proving they would.

Big_Shot Posted on 29/05/2008 23:39
ROONEY = OVER RATED

So thats a yes. Finally.

I didn't need to prove they would though, just that it was possible, which I have done.

Phew, anyway that was fun [:)]

Hercules Posted on 29/05/2008 23:44
ROONEY = OVER RATED

If you can find a 'yes' in there well done to you.

Enjoy your......'victory', I think you'd call it.

Anyway night, I look forward to your next hypothetical post.

the_throcking_man Posted on 30/05/2008 00:00
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Have people thought that the man utd team might have played better this season and provided more chances for Ronaldo. He can't make all his goals out of nothing.

Hercules Posted on 30/05/2008 00:01
ROONEY = OVER RATED

If that were true would they not have won more points? They won 2 points less this season.

Hercules Posted on 30/05/2008 14:09
ROONEY = OVER RATED

Just worked out the probablility of Ronaldo scoring 14 less Premier League goals and the outcome of Manchester United's games remaining the same. It is 0.000146.

Thats about 1 in 7000.

sasboro1 Posted on 30/05/2008 14:17
ROONEY = OVER RATED

manutd actually score more league goals the season before last season even when ronaldo scored less goals. so if you take away 14 of ronaldos goals. then some other players might have scored more.