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Holgateoldskool Posted on 27/04/2008 10:34
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

By the day.I was against his appointment from day one - and really nothing has yet changed my mind. The defence put up for him by supporters now is quite frankly embarrassing.

"He needs time" - how much?

"He had to rebuild" - well it isn't working.

And the best chestnut of all "Who would want the job"? So really are you agreeing that the malise at the club is so great we wouldn't attract a half decent manager?

Gibbo took a gamble - it hasn't worked. Still down amongst the deadmen - although not in a relegation battle to some - we are looking over our shoulder for clubs below not to gain points - well that ISN'T HAPPENING !

I hope that the end of this disasterous season Gibbo sits down in the cold light of day and makes some tough decisions for the good of the club.

Oh and by the way the next time folk want to slag off Mappy, SAS, myself and a few others - remember our supposed "gloomy, negative" outlook is nearer to reality than a lot of your optimistic view of how things are on Planet Boro.

AlBoro1984 Posted on 27/04/2008 10:36
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

They were probably saying the same thing about Bryan Robson up until Venables was appointed and the ones who claim Maccarone didn't have long enough to prove himself, despite being here 5 years.

MKredleaderOne Posted on 27/04/2008 10:38
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

"By the day."

What about the night?

Adi_Dem Posted on 27/04/2008 10:39
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

I've said since day one that he is the wrong man. Sadly, I wanted him to prove me wrong and he hasn't.

Holgateoldskool Posted on 27/04/2008 10:39
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

Sorry MK - absolutely right!

AlBoro1984 Posted on 27/04/2008 10:43
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

I'm the same Adi, I will always respect him for being a great player and great captain for us and would love it if he made us into a great team, but it's not going to happen.

Quite what Gibson was doing giving him a 5 year contract I'll never know. Why not a 1 year rolling contract to see how he gets on. Madness.

Chappy112 Posted on 27/04/2008 10:44
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

It's like this every week on here. One week we win and he's the next England manager and everyone thought he was the right man from day one. The next week we lose and everyone thinks he's crap and they thought it was a bad choice from day one.

wilkos_perm Posted on 27/04/2008 10:46
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

there are many aspects of his management i like but its just not turning into results which at the end of the day is the most important thing.

A lot can change in a summer though i do think if he can get a couple, or three, decent midfielders in then the team might 'click' but who knows?

It's very strange though this board, some people's dislike for people who are optimistic, it's hardly really a bad character trait is it?

Adi_Dem Posted on 27/04/2008 10:47
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

Sorry chappy but that's rubbish.

Holgateoldskool Posted on 27/04/2008 10:48
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

Chappy, sorry in no way is your generalisation statement correct. True, when boro win his supporters make hay - equally so some of his detractors do with a defaet. Other posters look at the run of results, the trends that have emerged - and have the same opinion now as they have had from day one.

Nice guy, superb player for the club, heart in the right place - but sadly falling short of the main attribute - good manager.

wilkos_perm Posted on 27/04/2008 10:48
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

i think Chappy's observation of what happens on this board is pretty accurate

LemmyKilmister Posted on 27/04/2008 10:50
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

'Nice guy, superb player for the club, heart in the right place - but sadly falling short of the main attribute - good manager.'

that's how I see it Holgate.

But I'm not going to call for his head......just yet.

Adi_Dem Posted on 27/04/2008 10:50
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

It might be for a minority wilko but not the majority.

I'll be the first on here praising him if I feel he has got something right. Sadly, that isn't happening often enough.

mailinator Posted on 27/04/2008 10:50
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

When was the last time everyone was claiming he was the next England boss?

AlBoro1984 Posted on 27/04/2008 10:51
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

I've wanted him gone since the start of December. A few good draws away from home aren't going to change my opinion. It's always 1 step forward 2 steps back with him. Get good draws away at Arsenal + Villa then roll over and die at home for a P*** poor relegation bound team.


Barney_Calhoun Posted on 27/04/2008 10:51
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

I think people have a go at onthemap not over whether he is right or not but his attitude of revelling in it. He is the first one on here after we lose posting just how right he is, makes it seem that this is his primary objective. I think most supporters would prefer that their "gloomy outlook" is proved wrong? Unless being right is more important that the team they support doing well? Doesn't sound like the actions of a supporter.

The_River Posted on 27/04/2008 10:52
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

Even worse than the fans who give him their blind support come what may, are those who have been willing him to fail from day one, just so they can say "told you so".

The same lads who always moan. When we're rubbish it's "typical Boro"; when we're decent they moan about all the "part-timers" who've suddenly turned up to watch the team.

And Chappy is absolutely right.

Adi_Dem Posted on 27/04/2008 10:55
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

Spot on Barney. Agree completely with that.

River - he isn't right. He's making a wild generalisation that is only true in respect of a small minority.

Holgateoldskool Posted on 27/04/2008 10:57
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

Barney, what's the point of ignoring what is wrong ? Do you really think any Boro fans revel in our miserable results and performances?

Any body who has success concentrate on identfying and eliminating their weaknesses to get better and stronger. If folk can't stomach that type of forum on here well you don't have to read the threads from the posters you have marked down as negative.

To me all true Boro fans should be interested in discussing all issues about the club they support - without this incomfortable feeling some obviously get.

The_River Posted on 27/04/2008 11:00
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

wild generalisations on this MB - who'd have thought it!

borokiwi Posted on 27/04/2008 11:00
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

Put it this way, instead of appointing Gareth , Gibbo might have picked Fat Sam! and look what happened to him. And as a matter of interest, to Bolton after he left.

Barney_Calhoun Posted on 27/04/2008 11:02
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

I was referring to a specific poster you were defending. I fully agree people should be able to post what they want, but it works both ways, people who have an overly positive outlook get shouted down in just the same fashion, if you look at threads on here today.

Onthemap likes to have a good chuckle at winding people up, that of which I am sure, probably has a good sense of humour but his posts do seem to revel in him being right.

Holgateoldskool Posted on 27/04/2008 11:03
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

And whwere were the Geordies in the league when they ditched Big Sam ? And your comparision to what happened at Bolton when Sam left counters your own arguement..................

boro74 Posted on 27/04/2008 11:03
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

All the signs were there to predict that Southgate would become a good manager. Ideally the plan was for him to play one more season , be assistant for a couple of years, and then take over as manager. Unfortunately circumtances meant that Gibbo had to throw him in the deep end and say sink or swim.

Steve Gibson knew that this was a little unfair. He gave him a 5 year contract, and his full backing, so that he has the time to learn and develop. Nothing has happened so far to prove that this was the wrong decision. On the contrary. Southgate has assembled a good young squad with potential and prospects. Already this season there have been a number of performances that bode well for the future. Southgate has 3 more years to progress further. Into the last year of his contract Gibbo will decide whether to renew it or not. I, for one, am optimistic that Southgate will be her for years to come.

Zoophonic Posted on 27/04/2008 11:04
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

These anti Southgate "lovies" were probably the ones clamouring for Paul Jewell at Christmas.

And he's done such a good job at Derby so far hasn't he.

Football myth No 126# Changing your manager doesn't necessarily change a sides fortunes. Speak to Fulham and Derby fans.

Jonny_Ingbar Posted on 27/04/2008 11:07
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

I think he should be given more time, despite the fact there are some serious questions about at this time.

Gibson gave him a five year contract and with that a five year plan. Next season will be make or break for him becuase another season like tgis wont be good enough.

Ultimately if the Chairman feels he should persevere with with then thats good enough for me.

mailinator Posted on 27/04/2008 11:08
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

Hate to blow your argument out of the water but who the F*** has been asking for Paul Jewell? I certainly haven't.

Holgateoldskool Posted on 27/04/2008 11:08
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

The comparison with Derby proves my point. Here we are, 10 years Prem experience, Cup winners, 2 seasons in Europe including a final and we get compared with - Derby !

I cannot believe such a crass comparison - is this the true depths we have now reached ?

Oooo Posted on 27/04/2008 11:09
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

I am on the fence here myself. There is no doubt this has been the worst season in a long time but I still like Southgate as a person and HOPE he can turn things around.

boro_bliss Posted on 27/04/2008 11:12
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

mailinator Posted on 27/04/2008 11:08 Email this Message | Reply
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted
Hate to blow your argument out of the water but who the F*** has been asking for Paul Jewell? I certainly haven't.



Dont worry. We do not care.

boro74 Posted on 27/04/2008 11:13
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

What exactly is your point?

blindschool Posted on 27/04/2008 11:14
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

I was against Southgate's appointment at the start. I think we will be a good manager but I object to people being given the opportunity to serve their apprenticeship with us.

Having said that, he has been given the job and every mananger should have a four or five year plan and should not be judged at this early stage. If it doesn't fall into place next season, get rid. Till then support him.

Holgateoldskool Posted on 27/04/2008 11:15
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

Oooo, not having a pop but you represent a lot of his supporters now with only one thing left - hope.

Not the greatest card to have in our hands, is it?

ayresomemark Posted on 27/04/2008 11:15
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

I posted yesterday that im still with him, but he angered a lot of fans around me yesterday. At 2-2 we were crying out to stretch the mackems and although i dont think Johnson is the answer he never at least give him a chance to run at them.

Although a cliche next season personally will be the make or break for Gareth. I can see us pushing up the table but midfield needs a complete overhall and a shaky defence needs repairing with a keeper and left back.

mailinator Posted on 27/04/2008 11:17
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

bliss, go and start another thread if you want to have (yet another) pop at me, I'm not in the mood.

Tom_Fun Posted on 27/04/2008 11:17
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

"These anti Southgate "lovies" were probably the ones clamouring for Paul Jewell at Christmas."

Probably? What a load of S***. You've just blatantly made something up to try and back up your argument.


AlBoro1984 Posted on 27/04/2008 11:17
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

err Zoophonic changing manager for Fulham has actually worked, they just left it too late.

Ask any Fulham fan who is doing the better job Hodgson or Sanchez. They just won back to back away games for the first time in 4 years! They could still finish on the same points as us.

Warwick_Hunt Posted on 27/04/2008 11:19
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

Bliss. Please stop trying to stir S*** up again.

You are clearly trying to goad Mallinator, so be a good girlie and stop being so pathetic.

Thanks.

boro_bliss Posted on 27/04/2008 11:19
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

You dont start a thread yourself either when you abuse me.

Anyway, who cares what you think? Or if Paul Jewell is the right man?

You should go over to b17 again, and treat posters like S*** and abuse them via mail and then banning them, so they cant come back to the board complaining about your insults.

Jonny_Ingbar Posted on 27/04/2008 11:20
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

At 2-2 we were heading for a vital point - bringing on Johnson would have been a very very risky move.

Holgateoldskool Posted on 27/04/2008 11:22
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

Giving away a corner in the last minute of a game against a club renowned for scoring late goals was riskier I suggest!

blindschool Posted on 27/04/2008 11:23
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

There are too many people on here who think that being a manager is like playing Championship Manager where you can win the league over an evening in your bedroom. It's a difficult job and takes time.

Warwick_Hunt Posted on 27/04/2008 11:27
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

Some people don't give a toss what you think either bliss.

And it looks like you are stalking Mallinator.

Just leave it ffs.


MKredleaderOne Posted on 27/04/2008 11:27
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

blindschool

I assume someone gave you a chance when you started in your current line of work.

Holgateoldskool Posted on 27/04/2008 11:28
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

Oh come on - wake up! We've had 10 years - yes 10 years in the Prem. Look at the clubs around us - none of them have the same amount of years in the Prem. Indeed 3 of the bottom 4 can only muster 2 and first year between them!

As I have said - and has been proved , the defence for Gareth is so weak now - well how can you defend ythe indefensivable?????

boro74 Posted on 27/04/2008 11:29
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

Holgateoldskool, do you read my posts?

boro_bliss Posted on 27/04/2008 11:30
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

Oh he seems to love it.

Seeing how much he was stalking me in the past.

Zoophonic Posted on 27/04/2008 11:31
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

So comparing ourselves with Derby is crass is it?

Derby County - won the League in 1972 and 1975, semi finalists of the European Cup, Average gates better than ours this season despite their shocking performnaces, similar ground, bigger catchment area, and you say its crass to compare ourselves with them. Get a reality check mate and understand how big a Club we are.


MKredleaderOne Posted on 27/04/2008 11:34
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

Holgate

Didn't they teach English (spelling) at your old "skool"?

"indefensivable"?????


Holgateoldskool Posted on 27/04/2008 11:34
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

Read your posts on here - and I disagree. Can't really see how anyone can judge potential as many a fine player has not made the transistion to manager - Bobby Moore, Bobby Charlton amongst the biggest.

Holgateoldskool Posted on 27/04/2008 11:36
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

1972, 1975 - what does that have to do with today???What a crazy line of arguement!

MK - as long as people understand my thoughts the odd typo or spelling mistake doesn't phase me honestlee !

blindschool Posted on 27/04/2008 11:39
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

'I assume someone gave you a chance when you started in your current line of work.'

My jobs a lot easier than being a football manager.


RavsDad Posted on 27/04/2008 11:40
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

Holgateoldskool has a point. The comparisons we should be making aren't with Derby or Fulham. My yardstick used to be that if Boro finished below a team like Charlton - bearing in mind Gibsons much greater investment - then we were not realising our potential.

Nowadays, in terms of support and revenue the top four are out of reach of most others. But we should be able to live with the likes of Blackburn and Portsmouth. With 10 years in the Prem and decent investment we shouldn't be down among the Fulham, Birmingham and Wigan brigade. OK, so we've had some injuries, but who hasn't? Poor, inexperienced management has put us where we are, whether it's down to team selection, signings or motivation.

I don't think it's accidental that almost all the teams above us have managers that would appear to be motivational and/or experienced. (With the exception of Avram Grant - but then, it would be hard for me to fail with a squad as strong as he inherited).

Zoophonic Posted on 27/04/2008 11:42
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

My point, which you are missing entirely, is that no team has a divine right to be a top 10 side just because they have been in the Premier League for 11 consecutive seasons.

Your "crazy" notion is that we cant compare ourselves to these new Clubs because they haven't had the experience in the top flight. That has jack S*** to do with it.

Its about the players, its about the income and the crowds. Ten years in the PL has left us all stale. No longer is it a fashionable thing to go and support the Boro. The price of tickets is beginning to have an effect on crowds and performances have not matched expectations.

Southagte deserves time for me and I will give him another season at least.

Holgateoldskool Posted on 27/04/2008 11:46
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

So 10 years doesn't give you a platform doesn't it? 10 years of Sky money against poor money in the Championship doesn't give you more than a head start? Adding to a half decent squad would send you miles clear of the deadmen . We are not.

I fail to see any logic in your arguement. And who said top 10? Not me. I reackoned about 14th is about our limit.

Your arguement is so flawed...........

Zoophonic Posted on 27/04/2008 11:49
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

Football is short term you know that.

How can you "plan" when you lose both your top strikers at once and then your top defender decides to quit?. We are doing better than nearly every other English Club in growing our own players but as Arsenal and Chelsea have shown to succeed in the PL you have to buy big.

Not one team now in the top flight has success by growing consistent talent from within. Its all imported.

boro74 Posted on 27/04/2008 12:05
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

My point is that Gibbo gave Southgate a 5 year contract because he expected him to have problems to begin with and wanted to give him enough time. Obviously it was a risk. But a calculated risk. Up till now nothing has happend to prove that Southgate won't make it. In fact,it's probably gone exactly as expected. He's not even 2 years into that 5 year contract yet. Time will tell. I'm optimistic.

still_stood_on_the_holgate Posted on 27/04/2008 12:07
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

Spot on boro74

Stabilo_Boss Posted on 27/04/2008 12:40
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

Leeds were an established Premiership side, Southampton were an established Premiership side. It guarantees nothing.

I've said it many times but our old model was unsustainable. Paying top-whack for aging "stars" and having to replace them every other year is not a recipe for long term success. Southgate's task was to try and lower the age of the squad, bring through homegrown talent and supplement them with young, hungry players. Taking a step back was inevitable with this scenario, which is probably why Gibson gave him a 5 year deal.

If you put a manager on a year-by-year rolling contract then his focus will instinctively be on short term success over long term stability.

There have been seeds of positivity this season, flashes of progression amongst a lot of harsh lessons.

The reaction to the Cardiff defeat
his handling of George's dip in form
the ruthless sale of Woodgate
faith shown in bringing through Wheater
the resolution of the Downing contract dispute
Attacking ethos against the big sides

All signs that he has what it takes in management.

I know you could write a list of his errors (as with any rookie manager) people do on a daily basis, but they NEVER acknowledge any positives.

and there are some.

Adi_Dem Posted on 27/04/2008 12:43
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

I take exception to that Stabilo. I don't think he is the right man but certainly recognise and praise positives that I see.

Stabilo_Boss Posted on 27/04/2008 12:51
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

You are an exception to the norm, Adi.

The nature of these things is that arguments get polarised I suppose.

Holgateoldskool Posted on 27/04/2008 13:25
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

And winning matches - where does that enter your equation? We've won 8 out of 36 - pretty pish poor by most yardsticks.

That's the progress I wantbto see - sadly it isn't happening anywhere near enough..............

Adi_Dem Posted on 27/04/2008 13:39
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

Yeah, generally I agree Stabilo. There doesn't ever seem to be any middle ground.

ayresomemark Posted on 27/04/2008 14:30
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

Good post SB

Zelig Posted on 27/04/2008 14:37
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

Are we really surprised by our current league position given the fact we have a young inexperienced team with an inexperienced manager? Always sounded like a recipe for disaster to me. Appointing Southgate was an amateurish decision by Gibson. For someone with no experience to be given an established premiership club to manage for his first job was just stupidity & also shows Gibson's arrogance, riding roughshod over his fans wishes just so he could have another inexperienced yes man in place. Man utd's last 3 captains have all gone into management & none of them got a premiership club for their first job so why was Southgate given a premiership club to play chamionship manager with? We have went from a team qualifying for Europe through the league to relegation candidates under his management. Our performances against the better teams compared to the poorer teams shows he clearly has no motivational skills. Anyone can get themselves motivated to play Man Utd, Arsenal, etc & it's the job of the manager to get the players motivated for the games vs Bolton, Reading, Cardiff, etc. For anyone thinking he has a plan for the future remember only 2 weeks ago he was saying he didn't need to change much in the summer so he obviously thinks things are going to plan.

boro74 Posted on 27/04/2008 14:42
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

"We have went from a team qualifying for Europe through the league to relegation candidates under his management."

The season before Southgate took over we did not qualify for Europe through the league. We finished about where we are now.

Compare the players he inherited to the squad we have now. The squad is a lot younger and better balanced.

still_stood_on_the_holgate Posted on 27/04/2008 14:43
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

They conveniently forget things like that. Halfwits the lot of em.

Holgateoldskool Posted on 27/04/2008 14:46
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

OK, SSOTH - I won,t resort to insults like you - shows the arguement is lost. Dismantle my original post item by item and tell me where I'm getting it wrong.

Zelig Posted on 27/04/2008 14:49
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

So people who think the unqualified defender isn't doing a good job as manager are all halfwits? Maybe it's time you took your blinkers off & look at the league table. The season before he took over we finished on 45 points & we are a long way behind that now. Plus we had a successful eurpoean cup campaign that effected our league finish no such excuse this season especially with the Cardif embarassment.


boro74 Posted on 27/04/2008 14:51
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

Holgateoldskool, you say Gibbo took a gamble that hasn't worked. How can you claim that. Gibbo has given Southgate 5 years to prove he's a good manager. He hasn't even finished 2 years yet.

It's like saying your horse has failed in the Grand National when the horses have only just finished the first circuit.

Holgateoldskool Posted on 27/04/2008 14:57
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

Gibbo has taken a gamble. we have regressed not progressed. We've gone from having a feared strike force to a virtually nonexistant one.We lose at home to Reading - giving them 3 of the 7 points they've earned this season.

We have deficiencies throughout the team. We are struggling in a very poor lower half Premiership.

That's the reality. Thats what nearly 2 years of Gareth has given us. So are we continue with little more than a lame duck manager because he has a 5 year contract?

The team mirrors the manager - it has a soft underbelly.

I and others can't see things getting better - and that's our single biggest problem.

still_stood_on_the_holgate Posted on 27/04/2008 14:57
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

"He needs time" - how much?

The best manager in the game today needed four years to build "his" team at Man United. I would suggest Gareth gets exactly the same. Its taken Moyes at Everton nigh on 5 years.


"He had to rebuild" - well it isn't working.

See above. In Moyes' first few seasons Everton were nearly relegated aswell. At the end of the four years you can say whether it has worked or not. Until then your just speculating. Gibson gave him a 5 year deal because he knows you need that time to build a team. He's not even half way through that so you cant jusdge him now. By your logic both Moyes and Ferguson would have been sacked two years in. Now that would have been a huge mistake by both clubs to lose those two wouldnt it?

"Who would want the job"?

Face facts, we're a small club from a small town with little history, not much money compared to most other teams, not a huge fanbase and we're situated in the north of england. We could probably attract a half decent manager but not a real class one. Southgate has the potential to be very good. I'd rather have him here than some bloke with no feeling for the club or town.

"Gibbo took a gamble - it hasn't worked"

He's not even had two full seasons. So quick to judge. You'd have sacked Moyes and Ferguson presumably aswell then?

"I hope that the end of this disasterous season"

Staying in the premier league is hardly disasterous is it? A bit OTT there like. Who do you think we are Man United? We're not even a big club. We're punching well above our weight and have done for the last 10 years.

Hope that helps.




Holgateoldskool Posted on 27/04/2008 15:02
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

Suppose it boils down to how easy folk are satisfied - and some must be very easily satisfied.

Good managers- even rookies - learn from mistakes - I remain to be convinced that Gareth has/does.

We have the best chairman, the best academy,one of the best training complexes - you'd be amazed the type of manager we could attract - unconditionally.

Tom_Fun Posted on 27/04/2008 15:04
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

Wrong again. In Moyes' 2nd season Everton finished pretty high up the table.

boro74 Posted on 27/04/2008 15:06
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

I can't wait for next season. We've got a bright young team that's going places. We just need strengthening in one or two positions, and a bit of cover in others. With Gareth Southgate we can go on to challenge for Europe again.

Zelig Posted on 27/04/2008 15:06
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

"Staying in the premier league is hardly disasterous is it?"

So we've went from being an established premiership club to a club happy with last day survival?

Why mention Ferguson & Moyes? They both had a track record & managerial experience for the club & fans to look at & believe in. Southgate has nothing. As for keeping him coz he'll be commited to us why not just employ Ali Brownlee then if all you want is commitment? His inexperience might relegate us but at least he wouldn't leave us even if he was offered the Man Utd job.

still_stood_on_the_holgate Posted on 27/04/2008 15:08
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

No we have one of the best chairman in terms of loyalty and devotion but not in terms of finance and in a world where cash is king thats the most important thing.

We have ONE of the best academys not THE best.

Are you sure your really a Boro fan? I think you believe we're Man United or something. Out of the teams in the Prem only probably Bolton, Fulham and Derby have less finance than ourselves and the majority have lots more.

still_stood_on_the_holgate Posted on 27/04/2008 15:11
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

Staying in the prem is key. Thats the minimum we aim for each season. Anything else is a bonus.

Zelig Posted on 27/04/2008 15:12
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

If you think we couldn't of got an experienced manager to come here after Mclaren left you're wrong. If Gibson hadn't wanted another yes man we could of had O'neil & built on the foundations Mclaren had put in place instead of letting a rookie play championship manager & make every mistake in the book as he learns his trade with our club.

Adi_Dem Posted on 27/04/2008 15:12
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

Attitudes like that are insular and lack any form of ambition.

Sorry but the players we have, the facilities we have and the chairman we have means that we should be aiming higher than that. With Gareth in charge it isn't going to happen though.

Holgateoldskool Posted on 27/04/2008 15:14
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

So you don't acknowledge 2 of our greatest strenghs - Gibbo who is virtually universally accapted as the best chairman, and our academy - again recognised as best by some observers/ And you question me being a Boro fan?

No it's just a feeble attempt to prop up your arguement.

And I get called negative........

still_stood_on_the_holgate Posted on 27/04/2008 15:15
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

Good lord you lot really do think we're better and bigger than we are. And you call the jawdees deluded. How high do you "expect" us to be finishing then. Take a look at the league table and tell me which clubs we can compete with financially?

Adi_Dem Posted on 27/04/2008 15:17
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

All of those in the lower half except Spurs and the Jawdees.

Simple as that.

next.

still_stood_on_the_holgate Posted on 27/04/2008 15:17
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

holgate - What would you define as best? I mean in terms being in the best interests of the club. If your saying loyalty and passion then yes he prob is the best. If your saying financially powerful and able to spend hundreds of millions on star players then Steve Gibson is nowhere near the best. I still wouldnt want any other chairman over him like.

Holgateoldskool Posted on 27/04/2008 15:18
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

I don't expect great things - 12th to 14th . But I do expect us to have sufficient quality to not being in a relegation dogfight with 2 games to go.

Thats realism not rose coloured spec talk.

Zelig Posted on 27/04/2008 15:20
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

With a good manager we would finish 10th-14th. With a great manager we could finish in Europe & win cup(s). With a rookie manager with no motivation skills we are serious relegation candidates.

Moyes, Rednapp & Hughes are doing better than thier finances suggest they should be.


still_stood_on_the_holgate Posted on 27/04/2008 15:20
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

Abi Dem - what about Sunderland? So thats three teams in the bottom half which means financially we can compete with the 6 other teams. So its no surprise then that we'll finish bottom half then is it? So really we're not as big as you say then are we?

Next.

still_stood_on_the_holgate Posted on 27/04/2008 15:23
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

Holgate - you expect too much then. Sometimes teams have bad seasons, look at leeds for example. We've been in the prem for 10 years solid and only been in danger of going down a couple of times. We're not in any real danger now anyway if you ask me but i'll go along with it to keep you drama queens happy. We're a team in transition with a new manager. People need to be realistic.

Holgateoldskool Posted on 27/04/2008 15:24
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

Of course I don't bracket him as in the same league as the super rich. However the qualities you've touched on are admirable - he is a tad too loyal.

But what you have done have highlighted the problem. With limited funds we need a manager capable of getting better performances, consistantly ie a Mark Hughes type - to be able to do anything in the division.Sadly Gareth is not in that mould.Letting a rookie learn at our expense is a gamble too far in my opinion

Zelig Posted on 27/04/2008 15:29
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

I agree. If we had an experienced squad of players then having Southgate as manager wouldn't be so bad but the one thing inexperienced players need is an experienced manager to guide them. We have the worst combination possible, a young inexpeirenced squad & manager & that is a recipe for disater.

still_stood_on_the_holgate Posted on 27/04/2008 15:29
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

Who do you suggest who would actually come?

Zelig Posted on 27/04/2008 15:31
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

We would struggle to attract anyone now coz we are relelgation fodder but when Mclaren left we could of had O'neil.

LemmyKilmister Posted on 27/04/2008 15:31
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

Incey wouldn't take any shyt off them but I think he's a couple of seasons away from being a prem boss.


Holgateoldskool Posted on 27/04/2008 15:33
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

Lemmy - great shout!

still_stood_on_the_holgate Posted on 27/04/2008 15:34
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

How do you know we could have had O'Neill? He had talks but he was the one who turned us down not vice versa. Its all very well saying we could have had so and so but thats in the past. I'm asking you who you'd want to replace Southgate seeing as your all keen on him getting the boot.

Anyone?

Zelig Posted on 27/04/2008 15:35
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

I'd swap Ince for Southgate right now. Same applies to Mowbray.

still_stood_on_the_holgate Posted on 27/04/2008 15:35
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

Hang on a second. You lot are whining about Gareths lack of managerial experience yet you want Ince as manager who is equally as inexperienced? You couldnt make it up.

Holgateoldskool Posted on 27/04/2008 15:37
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

I'll help you get it - Ince ( and Keene) are making a better stab at management than Gareth - simple as that.

Zelig Posted on 27/04/2008 15:38
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

Ince has worked under the best & has already had success in management unlike Southgate. Young players need to respect & fear their manager & I think Ince would fit the bill perfectly. Also you've missed the point it's only because we have went backwards that we now have to pick inexperienced managers, when Mclaren left we could of got an experienced manager who could of built on Mclaren's foundations.

still_stood_on_the_holgate Posted on 27/04/2008 15:40
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

Hahahahahahahaha i honestly cant believe what i'm hearing. Your totally contradicting what youve been arguing about for the past hour or so.


still_stood_on_the_holgate Posted on 27/04/2008 15:42
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

Oh and Holgate, Keane just spent nigh on 50 million in the summer and wheres his team? Yes thats right only a few points ahead of us(at the moment)

Zelig Posted on 27/04/2008 15:43
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

No you're just clueless. Appointing the rookie has left us crippled & unable to get an experienced manager to touch us with a barge pole. That's why we're now having to name better inexperienced managers to replace him.

still_stood_on_the_holgate Posted on 27/04/2008 15:43
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

Drama queen.

Holgateoldskool Posted on 27/04/2008 15:44
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

In what respect? ince has proved his credentials at a very unfashionable club, obviously getting the maximum from those players. Turned Macclesfield around and kept them in the league.

So getting the maximum out of players - where does that contradict anything?

One of my main points is exactly that - if money is tight that has to be a pre-requisite for a manager to have.

You are not only losing the arguement - you're losing the plot!!

Sorry, fella.

Adi_Dem Posted on 27/04/2008 15:45
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

You only asked about the bottom half!! Look at Blackburn, Bolton under Allardyce, Everton haven't spent hugely compared to us, Portsmouth, even Villa.

Finance is only part of the story - look at the instability at Liverpool even with massive investment.

We should be capable of finishing regularly in the top half and no-one will convince me otherwise.

LemmyKilmister Posted on 27/04/2008 15:46
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

Wasn't there something about MoN wanting travelling time off to go home during the week due to his wife being ill?

Holgateoldskool Posted on 27/04/2008 15:48
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

And the conditions about retaining the backroom staff - that was the killer that ensured no one decent would want the job.

Zelig Posted on 27/04/2008 15:48
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

Well Villa appointed him & I don't think they're regretting their decision do you? Scoring goals for fun & set to challenge for Europe for the foreseable future.

still_stood_on_the_holgate Posted on 27/04/2008 15:48
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

Your harping on about Southgate being too inexperienced to lead a young inexperienced side yet you want a manager equally as inexperienced? I dont get it. Ince has done well in the lower leagues. So did Peter Taylor. Wheres he at now again?

As for getting the best out of players who do you think out of our entire squad would get in any of the sides in the top half of the table. I'll give you three - Downing, Wheater, Alves. Thats it. So we're not as good as your making out really are we?

LemmyKilmister Posted on 27/04/2008 15:51
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

Was it ever revealed who the German manager was?

still_stood_on_the_holgate Posted on 27/04/2008 15:51
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

Abi - Everton have spent nearly twice as much and not had to sell anyone as have Villa and Portsmouth. Finance is a massive part of success in modern football.

RavsDad Posted on 27/04/2008 15:51
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

still_stood_on_the_holgate

You ask who 'would actually have come' to us. That demands total speculation.

But. Had Gibson been willing to throw the door open to anyone rather than appoint an in-house rookie, who knows? The media never tire of calling Gibson the IDEAL employer; investment, giving managers time, lack of interference, etc. Things a manager often doesn't get at some other clubs. If you believe Hanson, Lawro, Grey & co you'd think there would be a queue out of the door.

If you don't agree, then you (and prospective managers) must have a very low opinion of this football club.

Adi_Dem Posted on 27/04/2008 15:51
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

MON was the correct choice and Gibson blew it.

Holgateoldskool Posted on 27/04/2008 15:52
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

So that's your justification for being in a relegation dogfight?Frankly the arguement is going in circles.

I'm afraid with the exception of hope I haven't seen a single reason as to why my opinion should alter on Gareth.So I feel I am right in my opinion that sadly he isn't good enough.

still_stood_on_the_holgate Posted on 27/04/2008 15:52
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

Zelig - theyve also spent about 50 million pounds to get there and havent had to sell anyone to do it. Just a small detail to throw in there.

Zelig Posted on 27/04/2008 15:53
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

I wonder why Yakubu & Woodgate left?

Ince is a motivator, Southgate isn't. Their results prove this. No player needs motivating vs the big clubs hence our performances vs them. Vs poorer teams who come for a point a good manager will motivate & use tactics to beat them. Something Southgate clearly isn't doing.

Are you saying without their investment Villa would still be behind us? Appointing O'neil has clearly helped them. Appointing Southgate has clearly hurt us.

still_stood_on_the_holgate Posted on 27/04/2008 15:54
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

RavsDad - name some then?

Holgate - So you would have presumably sacked Moyes then when they were anchored firmly in the bottom half? Not even two seasons and youve made your mind up already. Jawdee attitude.

still_stood_on_the_holgate Posted on 27/04/2008 15:57
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

zelig - if you want a motivator why not just appoint Bill Beswick. yakubu left because he wanted to join a bigger club and Woodgate left because of his personal life. I dont see your point.

Do you not think managers should get time to build their own team then?

Holgateoldskool Posted on 27/04/2008 15:58
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

If I saw these imaginary signs of improvement then perhaps.Our last 6 games - won 1 drawn 2 lost 3. Points 5 ( from18) Now tell me i should be getting orgasmic with that record.........

Zelig Posted on 27/04/2008 16:01
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

He's not a manager he's an unqualified defender playing championship manager with our club.

He's had 2 years & now look where we are. All the experienced players have jumped ship & we're left with an inexperienced young squad of players who lack direction & leadership from thier inexperienced manager. If they have any sense or ambition Downing & Wheater will leave in the summer.

still_stood_on_the_holgate Posted on 27/04/2008 16:02
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

Would you have sacked Moyes or not?

We've also played Arsenal, Chelsea, Man U and Spurs in the last 8 or so games. Not an easy run.

still_stood_on_the_holgate Posted on 27/04/2008 16:04
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

zelig - He has as much experience as Ince and Keane.

All the experienced players have jumped ship? Woodgate left cos of personal reasons, Viduka wanted too much money and Yakubu wanted to play for a bigger club. It had nothing to do with the manager.

Zelig Posted on 27/04/2008 16:05
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

Again Moyes had a track record to rely on when things weren't going well. Southgate has no track record.

We've also played Reading & Bolton at home & Sunderland away & picked up zero points. There is no point picking up points off Arsenal & Man Utd if you're gonna get beat by Reading & Bolton.

In the same time Keane & Ince have both had success, Southgate has had none. Southgate's track record is very poor. When the team really needs the manager to help them (tactics, motivation, etc) he has failed to help them.

still_stood_on_the_holgate Posted on 27/04/2008 16:05
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

zelig & Holgate - WOULD YOU HAVE SACKED MOYES OR NOT? JUST GIVE A STRAIGHT ANSWER.

Holgateoldskool Posted on 27/04/2008 16:06
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

I'm not interseted in the Moyes situation - and certainly can't offer comment - nor would I wish to - as I don't know chapter and verse about Everton - nor dop I wish to.

Frankly I'm interested in my club and anything else is an irrelevence.

Or a smokescreen for you to hide behind.The last 6 games tell me everything about our "progress".

still_stood_on_the_holgate Posted on 27/04/2008 16:07
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

Would you have sacked him or not Holgate. Its not hard. yes or no?

Holgateoldskool Posted on 27/04/2008 16:09
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

You've got my comment - is this the best defence you have for Gareth?

Boroborn Posted on 27/04/2008 16:11
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

I couldn't at this point blame Downing if he wanted out - head and shoulders our best player and must look at Southgate and think what a joke.

We could have had a proper top draw experience manager but instead we went for the cheaper option.

"We'll get the team we deserve" Keith Lamb.

We'll be in the Fizzy pop leagues before Southgates contract runs out.


Sitrep Posted on 27/04/2008 16:12
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

SOUTHGATE OUT NOW

still_stood_on_the_holgate Posted on 27/04/2008 16:12
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

Yes or no? Why wont you just answer honestly. Its really not that hard a question.

Let me lay the facts down. Everton had two poor seasons when Moyes first took over having previously managed Preston where he didnt win one single thing. Everton were nearly relegated in one of those seasons. Would you have sacked him?

Go on you can do it.

still_stood_on_the_holgate Posted on 27/04/2008 16:14
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

Dont worry zelig i havent forgotten about you. Would you have sacked Moyes or not? The silence is deafening.

Zelig Posted on 27/04/2008 16:16
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

I've told you you're question about Moyes (an experienced manager) is irrelevent. No I wouldn't of sacked him because I would of looked at his track record of success & been confident in his ability to turn things round. Southgate has a track record of failure.

I agree Boroborn if Downing has any sense he should leave Boro in the summer before Southgate ruins his career.

still_stood_on_the_holgate Posted on 27/04/2008 16:19
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

His track record and success? What would those of been then?

So you wouldnt have sacked Moyes? I think your telling porkies because Moyes was in exactly the same position as Southgate is now. Thankfully for Everton their chairman kept the faith and look at them reaping the rewards now.

Ladies and gentleman i rest my case.

[:D]

Holgateoldskool Posted on 27/04/2008 16:19
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

I'll tell you why the question remains unanswered - again - because I have no interest in Everton. No doubt you feel you've laid a trap - by showing continuity and faith has paid dividends. However Moyes had served his apprenticeship at Preston. Hardly comparing apples with apples.

Gareth has shown in his first job that he isn't up to the mark - something results testify.

Zelig Posted on 27/04/2008 16:23
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

You have no case to rest. You're trying to compare an experienced manager with an inexperienced manager. I would give an experienced manager more time to turn things round than an unqualified defender which is what Southgate is. Like Holgate says this isn't a hypothetical argument about experience over inexperience, Southgate has proved that he is not up to the job of management. Results veryify this FACT as does our league position.

still_stood_on_the_holgate Posted on 27/04/2008 16:23
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

You have no interest in Everton because if you answered the question honestly it waould have been a resounding "YES". This would have shown that you would have made the wrong choice as Moyes has been brilliant ever since. Theres no guarantee Southgate will be as good but he should have the same chance as Moyes.

You would have sacked Moyes and dropped a right clanger. It just goes to show that keeping the faith can pay dividends.

I rest my case, my job is done here, its been a pleasure, goodnight and godbless.

[:D]

heaton_mersey_boro Posted on 27/04/2008 16:24
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

One of our major problems is we have NO leaders on the pitch. When things are not going right (75% of this season) there has been nobody to start shouting, organising, etc.

All the team does is look at one another with blank expressions - its fooking ridiculous.

We desperately need a b*stard or two and preferably one who will dish out bollockings on the pitch. Until these players are brought in we will continue to drift along and be a soft touch.

Somebody at the club should have seen this.

With regards to Southgate, never been 100% convinced by him. Think he will one day be a good manager - just not with us. His overall record can only be described as shyte.....and he has been lucky where we are playing in a pretty poor PL. 8-10 seasons ago, we would be down. The quality is now so poor that 34-38 points will virtually guarantee survival.

Southgate - if we go down, get rid. If we stay up, he has one more season to finish 10-12th, no excuses.

LemmyKilmister Posted on 27/04/2008 16:25
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

In moyes's first season Everton were safe at this stage of the season. In his second they came 7th.

Zelig Posted on 27/04/2008 16:25
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

SSOTH you sound 8 years old.

If Southgate stays I predict we will lose Downing in the summer & I for one won't blame him for leaving.

Holgateoldskool Posted on 27/04/2008 16:27
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

If you think you'll ever win any arguement with a comparison that is less than 100% - then I feel sorry for you.

You ignore the facts,cling to hope, can't actually back up this hope with any saliant points in his favour - and you've won the arguement.

Your judgement is so very flawed - and very exposed.

Sleep well -pleasant dreams...................

Sitrep Posted on 27/04/2008 16:28
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

I was thinking more around 12 years old

Adi_Dem Posted on 27/04/2008 16:32
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

I'll tell you why Moyes rightly got more time - there were signs of improvement in his first two seasons. Has Southgate shown any?

Holgateoldskool Posted on 27/04/2008 16:34
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

Adi- he's legged it ! He thinks his moyes tack was a complete winner!

Sad and shallow.

Zelig Posted on 27/04/2008 16:43
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

He probably has his rose tinted specs glued to his face, clueless winker.

prepman Posted on 27/04/2008 17:10
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

who gives F*** about moyes,certainly not me.

Holgateoldskool Posted on 27/04/2008 17:48
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

I only care about the Boro. On another thread it is highlighting Gareth's record - it's getting worse.

That is the worry. And how some can say it's getting better is beyond me.

karembeu_ca Posted on 27/04/2008 18:16
Southgate luvvies- defending him more diluted

lemmy, and was it his 3rd they almost went down again?