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bangoutoforder Posted on 07/03/2012 11:02
kevin thomson - the stats

this season (2011-12) kevin thomson has made 13 appearances (11 league, 1 fa cup, 1 league cup).

middlesbrough have lost only 9 matches in all competitions (7 league, 1 fa cup, 1 league cup).

in those 9 lost matches, thomson played in 6 of them. i know other people played in those same games, but for someone that plays so infrequently, to finish on the losing side in a team that rarely looses - its not a coincidence.

statistically were are a better side when he doesn't play.

this is not a witch hunt.

Muttley Posted on 07/03/2012 11:04
kevin thomson - the stats

Good luck finding the witch.


Err sorry NOT finding the witch. [:o)]

Adi_Dem Posted on 07/03/2012 11:07
kevin thomson - the stats

Did those losses happen to come against the better teams in the division generally?

HotshotMFC Posted on 07/03/2012 11:11
kevin thomson - the stats

Did KT being sent off in the odd game make a difference?

Kilburn Posted on 07/03/2012 11:12
kevin thomson - the stats

Cum hoc ergo propter hoc.

Adi_Dem Posted on 07/03/2012 11:14
kevin thomson - the stats

Indeed Kilburn!

bangoutoforder Posted on 07/03/2012 11:18
kevin thomson - the stats

he didnt play when we lost to west ham/southampton, but he was in against forest/coventry.

Adi_Dem Posted on 07/03/2012 11:20
kevin thomson - the stats

And?

Lisbonlegend Posted on 07/03/2012 11:24
kevin thomson - the stats

Lets face it, we can all see he's been a complete waste of money.

Adi_Dem Posted on 07/03/2012 11:25
kevin thomson - the stats

Well no, that's not true Lisbon. Some people think that and others don't!

bangoutoforder Posted on 07/03/2012 11:27
kevin thomson - the stats

you asked - did those losses happen to come against the better teams in the division generally?

i was answering - no.

Adi_Dem Posted on 07/03/2012 11:28
kevin thomson - the stats

Ah, ok I see.

Well that tells me that the majority of our losses have come against the better sides and Thomson just happens to have played in those tougher games.

viv_andersons_nana Posted on 07/03/2012 11:32
kevin thomson - the stats

What about his appearances last season? Or don't they count? Are we just missing bits of his record out to make the remaining part of his record look worse, perhaps? Which other players were missing in the games Thomson played this season? How long do you expect it to take for a player recovering from a broken-leg(and it not being diagnosed properly) and a broken ankle(was it his ankle or was it his foot?) to come in and produce the goods? Or should a player recovering from two broken bones just be able to walk back into the team and play as if he hasn't been away? If we've lost six of the thirteen games Thomson has played this season then what happened in the other seven?

Adi_Dem Posted on 07/03/2012 11:34
kevin thomson - the stats

Spot on viv.

bangoutoforder Posted on 07/03/2012 11:49
kevin thomson - the stats

in his defence of the 19 games he managed to find time to play in last season, we lost only 6 of those. so i guess he's having a bad season.

OneJobOnTeesside Posted on 07/03/2012 13:14
kevin thomson - the stats

He has come in and played when our midfield had a number of injuries mainly Bailey. Bailey is a massive player for us and the games we have lost probably coincide with him and/or Robson being out.

Im not blind Thomson hasnt played well but did start to show a few glimpses before his last sending off. It seems mentally he isnt right as much as physically.

I think he could have done a job for us last night as after our goal we just couldnt settle down and keep hold of the ball.

red_shamrock Posted on 07/03/2012 13:17
kevin thomson - the stats

He`s no good on the sick all the time.

bear66 Posted on 07/03/2012 13:17
kevin thomson - the stats

I think his replacement as a central midfielder has been an issue. Smallwood looked even worse than thomson last night so I'd put thomson higher than smallwood

ted_dn38416 Posted on 07/03/2012 13:19
kevin thomson - the stats

kevin thomson = crap

OneJobOnTeesside Posted on 07/03/2012 13:21
kevin thomson - the stats

Agreed, it's not the done thing to criticise local lads but if Thomson had Smallwoods performance last night, the crowd and this board would be going mental.

We have Williams back if Bailey doesnt make it for that holding role. I prefer Williams at the back but with Hines playing so well it gives us plenty of midfield options

leroy Posted on 07/03/2012 13:22
kevin thomson - the stats

if fit the three in midfield has to be robbo, bailey, haroun

thomson shouldnt be anywhere near our 1st team

Boromart Posted on 07/03/2012 13:35
kevin thomson - the stats

bangoutoforder, the complete opposite was true last season. In the games he started and played at least 70mins (ie not the games he hobbled off after 5-10mins) we barely lost.

skiprat Posted on 07/03/2012 13:49
kevin thomson - the stats

The difference between Thomson and Smallwood though is that Smallwood hasn't cost us a fortune in wages and transfer fee and also didn't come to us with a big reputation from a massive club North of the border.

THAT is why you don't see the same clamour when he plays rubbish as he did last night.

Philip_Lawrence_Stamp Posted on 07/03/2012 14:18
kevin thomson - the stats

Juninho - the stats

In the 1996-1997 season Middlesbrough lost 16 Premier League games. Of those 16 Juninho played in 14 of them.

I know other people played in those games, but surely it isn't a coincidence that he played in the vast majority of the games we lost?

This is not a witch hunt.

Jdub Posted on 07/03/2012 14:45
kevin thomson - the stats

Adi,seriously do you rate him that much?you must be seeing something else than the rest of us?!

Red_Matter Posted on 07/03/2012 14:53
kevin thomson - the stats

Philip_Lawrence_Stamp has done the right thing and killed this pointless thread. [^]

Adi_Dem Posted on 07/03/2012 15:11
kevin thomson - the stats

Yes, I do rate him that much. So does Mogga.

borodavey Posted on 07/03/2012 15:18
kevin thomson - the stats

I don't know if mogga does adi. I think he used to rate him that much and he isn't openly gonna slag him off as that would devalue him further and dent his confidence.. But Thompson was on the bench a lot before the bailey injury so I think maybe he is just a squad player and not an automatic choice anymore

Starbuck Posted on 07/03/2012 15:20
kevin thomson - the stats

I have analysed this thread and come to a single conclusion.

It is in FACT a witch hunt

Adi_Dem Posted on 07/03/2012 15:23
kevin thomson - the stats

I disagree. Mogga said he was on the bench because he wanted him to be available and didn't want to rush him. That's when he was gushing in his praise of him. There is no doubt in my mind that Mogga sees him as a first choice.

Boromart Posted on 07/03/2012 15:25
kevin thomson - the stats

his ability isn't in question, not from people that know their footy. His value for money isn't in question he has barely played and then barely been fit.

The only question is can he make a career with us considering his wages and lack of impact so far.

bangoutoforder Posted on 07/03/2012 15:34
kevin thomson - the stats

comparing juninho to kevin thomson? really?

probably 99% of threads on here are pointless, including this one, its a fans forum, where you discuss football matters...the fact you have so much hatred inside you for someone's opinion on a football message board to suggest 'killing' the thread says alot. you must be fun on a night out.

you disagree, fine, alot of people do...alot of people agree with me tho as it seems.

i said half way down this thread if you'd read it that thomson had a much better record last year. if were being ridiculous tho, comparing him to juninho, then why didn't mogga play slaven up front last night, he has a great goalscoring record.

Adi_Dem Posted on 07/03/2012 15:36
kevin thomson - the stats

No one is comparing the two as players. The post that mentions Juninho is simply illustrating that the stat you used in the OP is pretty meaningless and doesn't actually say anything about Thomson as a player.

Jdub Posted on 07/03/2012 15:48
kevin thomson - the stats

Thomson will never be first choice,too slow and he can't tackle and is made of glass! Three things you don't need to be a good player ,he will be gone in the summer!

bangoutoforder Posted on 07/03/2012 15:54
kevin thomson - the stats

fair enough, it probably doesn't mean anything the stat but ive grew tired of thomson, i used to stick up for him but this season he has been terrible.

when we are defending, he seems to be strolling back and behind play, when we have the ball he's again, behind the play, usually in our half - where you want him to be when were defending.

he is only able to pass the ball backwards and sidewards, he does not know how to tackle - probably why he gets injured so often.

in my opinion he is a luxury player, he doesn't bring anything to the team and cant fit in the way we play. bailey has made him look even worse.

i wanted to see if their was any correlation with our losses and his appearances, so i thought id draw peoples attentions to it, as meaningless as it may well be.

Adi_Dem Posted on 07/03/2012 15:54
kevin thomson - the stats

He is In Mogga's first choice team.

bangoutoforder Posted on 07/03/2012 15:58
kevin thomson - the stats

yeah, i lied, it is a complete witch hunt.

Philip_Lawrence_Stamp Posted on 07/03/2012 16:09
kevin thomson - the stats

As Adi has said, my post wasn't to compare the two players, it was just to point out that you can manipulate stats to say whatever you want, when in reality it has nothing to do with a players ability.

I don't think there has been any hatred towards anyones opinion to be honest, just a fair debate. I happen to think Thomson is a good player. He was excellent toward the back end of last season, but, unfortunately he seems injury prone, which I think is the real reason behind some of his 'poor' performances this season.

It's tough for any player to spend so long out of action and play to his best when he comes back. I just think that some fans always need a player to get on the back of, and if that player starts doing well then they find another. At the moment there are so many positives, 4th in the league, class manager, genuine chance of promotion, yet some people are focusing on criticising individual plyers. Why can't we just get behind the team, and whoever is involved, whether it be Thomson or whoever?

Starbuck Posted on 07/03/2012 16:18
kevin thomson - the stats

Thomson was the best player on the park before sent off against forest; he was the victim of ref bias/ player faking injury to be sent off against Coventry.
He is a very good player he just needs to be on the park more. He will play his way into the team before the end of the season

Podgietits Posted on 07/03/2012 16:38
kevin thomson - the stats

The Juninho stat is regarding a player playing in a team at the bottom of the league. Therefore he is always going to have poor stats.

Thomson is playing in a team that is pushing for promotion, therefore his stats are notably worse, as the team in general lose less game.

Lets be honest though, Thomson is knackers! [V][cr]

bangoutoforder Posted on 07/03/2012 17:41
kevin thomson - the stats

its not that i need a player to knock, were doing fantastically well, i put that firmly down to our excellent manager. the only thing i disagree with mogga over is thomson, he seems to rate him highly by what ive heard him say.

but then again that's why he's a successful football manager, and i have to pretend on the computer.

i want thomson to come good, i really do and ive never, nor will ever, berate a boro player during a match. well, maybe i did laugh at ricketts once.

MawTheMerrier Posted on 07/03/2012 18:30
kevin thomson - the stats

Fact: of all the 20 women on trial and found guilty in Salem, not one was a witch.

That was a witch hunt.


the_dude_strikes_back Posted on 07/03/2012 18:32
kevin thomson - the stats

thomson playing well for us seems to be up there with jesus, fairys, pixies and dragons as a mythical tale with no rational hypothesis to back up its claims

hopefully his glass legs and seemingly balsa wood immune system will 'evolve' in the remaining 18 months of his contract, but i have always said even at peak flow he lacks the mobility for me


captain5 Posted on 07/03/2012 18:47
kevin thomson - the stats

Good work by Kilburn; that's nearly episode 2 of The West Wing.

ted_dn38416 Posted on 07/03/2012 18:52
kevin thomson - the stats

how much did we pay for him? I just fail to see what he brings to the team, like arca he's always going to be a liability, gets paid for nothing, slow, fragile and gets sent off

captain5 Posted on 07/03/2012 18:54
kevin thomson - the stats

Him playing well against Forest isn't even unanimous. I thought he would have been okay if that'd had been an away match and he made sure we kept the ball a lot.

However when you're supposed to be pressing at home and trying to score some goals he didn't try very much in the way of adventure and his tackling particularly in areas he doesn't need to be making those challenges, suggests he has poor judgement as well.

I can't think of many players (if any) I'd rather have than Bailey in our side from this level; I can easily think of a few with Thomson.

I'm struggling to think of a moment or a game where Thomson has done something and I've thought 'that's why he's here, we need that.'

I reckon in our 'first choice eleven' that would make him unique.

bill_door Posted on 07/03/2012 18:59
kevin thomson - the stats

He's not a first choice player.

Bailey, Robson and Williams are first choice players.

After that you're just filling the last midfield spot with any one of a few half-decent players.

Is it really just a coincidence that we go unbeaten in December without Thomson, were completely XXXXXX for six weeks with him, yet after holding on against Forest we win 3 from 4 with Thomson not playing? It's just weird.

Adi_Dem Posted on 07/03/2012 19:02
kevin thomson - the stats

That's just a convenient misuse of statistics. I think he is very much a first choice and I think he can and will offer a lot. I keep repeating this but Mowbray agrees.

captain5 Posted on 07/03/2012 19:03
kevin thomson - the stats

You know Adi's wrong about this just because Raz can't even be bothered to argue with him.

Adi_Dem Posted on 07/03/2012 19:03
kevin thomson - the stats

[:D]

bill_door Posted on 07/03/2012 19:06
kevin thomson - the stats

I'm not using stats Adi, I'm just pointing out a rather curious coincidence.

I'm just glad he's brainless otherwise our good recent run may never have happened.[smi]

Adi_Dem Posted on 07/03/2012 19:08
kevin thomson - the stats

I agree that it's coincidence and nothing more.

bill_door Posted on 07/03/2012 19:11
kevin thomson - the stats

I know.

Hence Mowbray not putting him back into the team because of an 'illness'.

But he's still a first choice player though, he's just 'ill'.[;)]

skiprat Posted on 07/03/2012 19:12
kevin thomson - the stats

Are there stats to back up that Thomson is Mowbray's first choice?

I'd have thought from memory that Robson and Bailey get picked before him pretty much every time when all are available.

the_dude_strikes_back Posted on 07/03/2012 19:12
kevin thomson - the stats

if we play 2 in central midfield , one has to be bailey as the shield and the other needs to be slightly more agressive in attacking

for me thomson is a classic pergatory player, neither defensive or attacking, just somebody who doesnt deviate from a central position and sprays passes around

i have no doubt he does have some qualities, my argument is that so far he has yet to justify his wage bill and wages in relation to good performances, he must have played well 3 or 4 times in nearly 2 years, not nearly enough and that is why he is criticised

good footballers who play well do not get criticism, think about it

Adi_Dem Posted on 07/03/2012 19:14
kevin thomson - the stats

Are you implying that Mowbray would (a) tell bare faced lies and (b) be such a weak manager that he has to make up an excuse for not picking a player?

Might it be that he is simply ill?

I can only go by what Mowbray says about him and what he does when he is fit and available. He will be back in the team as soon as possible.

captain5 Posted on 07/03/2012 19:17
kevin thomson - the stats

He'll play when Robson gets his 3 match ban, most likely or if Bailey has more injury problems.

Williams would come back into midfield ahead of him at the moment.

Adi_Dem Posted on 07/03/2012 19:17
kevin thomson - the stats

What dude so Schwarzer, Downing, Viduka, Yakubu and on and on - none of them got any criticism from our fans?

captain5 Posted on 07/03/2012 19:19
kevin thomson - the stats

Managers don't always tell the truth, Adi.

I think we know that from past experience.


Adi_Dem Posted on 07/03/2012 19:21
kevin thomson - the stats

I agree, when there is a motive to do so. There is no motive to go so ott in his praise of Thomson. He doesn't have to say anything and what he does say doesn't have to be so gushing.

His history with him at Hibs and his actions here at Boro in relation to him are telling.

Does anyone really doubt just how highly Mogga rates him?

His problem is fitness. Nothing else.

the_dude_strikes_back Posted on 07/03/2012 19:22
kevin thomson - the stats

struggling to see the link between mowbray building up the confidence of a player and the actual performance levels of a player on the field adi


mowbray praises all his players, i fail to see the relevance that in praising a player, it automatically elevates that player to an ability higher than one he hasnt recently praised

hes just giving a dog a good name

and yes, boro fans have criticised the players you mentioned, difference being they were all match winners on there day, thomson is not imho

captain5 Posted on 07/03/2012 19:24
kevin thomson - the stats

As I said above, I can't think of a time when we've needed him or he's done something outstanding.

I'm not being awkward; I really can't. I'm going through the rest of the players in or around the squad and pretty much to a man, I can.

Adi_Dem Posted on 07/03/2012 19:27
kevin thomson - the stats

But you said good players don't get criticised. I was simply showing that that is wrong.

Mowbray doesn't praise all of his players. He certainly doesn't praise them as much as Thomson. He also has a history with him at Hibs that tells you he rates him, as does his strenuous effort to get the guy in the team whenever he can.

I don't know what your second paragraph means but I stand by what I've said. Both in deed and word he clearly rates Thomson.

Adi_Dem Posted on 07/03/2012 19:29
kevin thomson - the stats

I'm not being awkward either captain, we just disagree, that's all and no problem.

I believe him to be one of our best players hampered by fitness problems and I certainly think he offers a lot and offers things that other players don't.

No worries though, we are not going to persuade each other!

captain5 Posted on 07/03/2012 19:29
kevin thomson - the stats

Can you answer my point?? Given you long enough. [8)]

Adi_Dem Posted on 07/03/2012 19:32
kevin thomson - the stats

Sorry - what do you want me to answer?

the_dude_strikes_back Posted on 07/03/2012 19:32
kevin thomson - the stats

mowbrays experience of thomsons ability as based around watching him operate in a lower standard of football in the spl

regardless of what mowbray thinks, as much as we love tony, and he's one of us etc, he has been a failure as well as a success with signing players and with football clubs, is there a chance he's got it wrong with thomson at this standard of football?

i can only judge a player on what he brings to the table in terms of transfer fee, wages and game time, something that so far, even you will have to concede has been minimal in respect to the financial outlay

don't get confused in people not rating thomson and not wanting to rate him, it's just i, like a lot of fans require more evidence that the 'faith' of the manager, ergo, performances on the football pitch, consistently

you cannot force people to rate thomson because mowbray says so, it sounds religious

captain5 Posted on 07/03/2012 19:36
kevin thomson - the stats

What's the moment or game that makes him stand out?

I don't see what he's done to earn a place in the team.

I'd like evidence that he's a good player apart from a sub-Gareth Barry level of ball retention.

Adi_Dem Posted on 07/03/2012 19:36
kevin thomson - the stats

I'm not relying on what Mowbray says Dude. I'm pointing to it as evidence that I am not alone and that a respected manager rtes him. of course it's possible that he has it wrong. I don't believe he has though.

I don't think Thomson has given us any return on our investment but that's because of fitness not ability. As I say, I rate Thomson because of what I've seen of him on the pitch, not because of what Mogga says.

bill_door Posted on 07/03/2012 19:38
kevin thomson - the stats

Mowbray praises lots of players.

He had a lot of praise for McManus before he shipped him off to Bristol City after putting Hines ahead of him in the pecking order.

He's been saying for ages how Luke Williams is knocking on the door of the first team yet he barely gets a sniff of the bench.

He builds confidence, he's a nice guy. Fact is that Thomson has contributed next to nothing to our season, and that's a fact whether you, Mowbray or anyone else thinks he's a fantastic player or not.

Adi_Dem Posted on 07/03/2012 19:41
kevin thomson - the stats

It's not been consistently there captain. However, what I've seen is a good passer, an intelligent passer and yes ball retention. We needed exactly that sortof player last night.

I've also seen vision. He plays passes that few of our other players even see. I can't remember which games but he plays it simply and effectively for long spells and then picks an excellent pass. I've seen him do it a lot in games.

He makes himself available all of the time as well. He always offers an option to the person in possession.I think he's a proper, technically able footballer.

It's been there all along but as I've said it's been hampered by fitness.

It is just my opinion though.

mikehunt Posted on 07/03/2012 19:44
kevin thomson - the stats

I rate Thomson and am glad we have him. Hope he gets fit and stays fit.
I do have to be honest and say I have been disappointed with him this season, but I still think he will come very good.

Adi_Dem Posted on 07/03/2012 19:44
kevin thomson - the stats

Sorry bill but his comments about those players were neither consistently made nor as unequivocal. Sorry but you're not going to persuade me that all of his positive comments are simply him being nice and supporting his player because he doesn't do it for everyone and there is no real motive for him to do it. In any event, his words are backed up by his actions. He makes strenuous efforts to get him in the team and he was his key man at Hibs.

If it wasn't for fitness, he would be his key man here, I have no doubt.

the_dude_strikes_back Posted on 07/03/2012 19:46
kevin thomson - the stats

He's been sent off more times than hes got assists or goals

if you assing players a role within a structure or a formation, bailey a defensive shield etc, robson a roving midifelder who presses from the front and rives the team on, what exactly would you catogerize thomson with, sits in the centre circle doing 'heroic' 5 yard passes, for me he needs to make his mind up if he's a defensive midfielder( which he isnt because his red cards show hes too slow in tackles) or an attacking one, as apposed to one who just fannys around in the middle

Adi_Dem Posted on 07/03/2012 19:49
kevin thomson - the stats

So are those the only options in midfield then, you're either an attacking midfielder or a defensive one? Can't agree there.

He's a proper central midfielder dude. There are plenty of top midfielders that aren't defensive but equally don't get a lot of goals or assists.

I assess players based on how they play, I don't have to consider anything else. I've seen Thomson play and I like what I see. It's as simple as that.

bill_door Posted on 07/03/2012 19:50
kevin thomson - the stats

He does it for players who need confidence - he's constantly said good things about Marvin, even when he was poor for a few months, because Marvin needs confidence to excel.

But fair enough, it's an argument that can't be settled because Thomson is never going to have a proper run in the team. The fact that strenuous efforts to get him in the team have resulted in about 700 minutes of game time this season says all we need to know about his career here.

Adi_Dem Posted on 07/03/2012 19:53
kevin thomson - the stats

As I've said, he doesn't do it and certainly not in the same way. You're right though, it can't be settled because we are speculating on what Mowbray thinks.

However, I do believe he will eventually get his fitness right and prove himself. Only time will tell.

the_dude_strikes_back Posted on 07/03/2012 19:54
kevin thomson - the stats

whats the empirical evidence then to suggest hes a good player

for a midfielder

pass success
assists
goals
tackles
defensive positioning
reading of the game
stamina
workrate

sometimes a player having a lot of the ball and making easy passes can look good and be deceptive

if you want to be scientific about it, which is the only way, you have to explain why he is a good player using the above criteria, and not just cos you say so

he does seem to have a decent sort of aesthetically pleasant way of passing the ball, but XXXXXX all else

Adi_Dem Posted on 07/03/2012 19:58
kevin thomson - the stats

Do you have to be scientific about it? I'm not sure you do. Anyway, you'll have to provide me with those stats for him because I don't have them.

What I do know from watching him is that he keeps possession for the team, provides an option for the player on the ball, moves intelligently and has a vision that almost no other midfielder has in our team. I also think his defensive positioning is good.

I don't have to agree with you dude, just as you don't have to agree with me.

RavsDad Posted on 07/03/2012 20:03
kevin thomson - the stats

In between being injured, supended or ill, Thompson has appeared on 31 occasions scoring 0 goals. I believe that 31 includes all the partial appearences (withdrawn/subbed on/carried off, etc.)

It's difficult to recall what he actually brings to the team when in it, as we've seen so little of it.

captain5 Posted on 07/03/2012 20:07
kevin thomson - the stats

I think his defensive position is awful to be honest.

Standing next to the other defenders does not make him good positionally.

We look better when we play slightly higher up the pitch and with tempo; he provides the opposite to that.

I'm not surprised you can't think of a particular moment because there hasn't been any that would be worth mentioning and get critics to at least even think about it.

Adi_Dem Posted on 07/03/2012 20:15
kevin thomson - the stats

I can though I just can't tell you the games they've happened in. Even if I could, your mind is made up and so it would be pointless.

I get the impression that there's a real problem for some people to accept the opposite view and opinion becomes very polarised as a result. I have no difficulty accepting that people don't agree with me and can't see it. He's not exactly helped himself. I just don't see why there is what appears to be a need to change my mind.

captain5 Posted on 07/03/2012 20:17
kevin thomson - the stats

I don't think it's unreasonable at all to ask you to justify your argument with evidence.

I'd quite happily do it about just about every single one of the other players in our squad, even those I don't rate that highly.

I'm not asking you to change your mind.

the_dude_strikes_back Posted on 07/03/2012 20:22
kevin thomson - the stats

thats not really true adi, boro fans are desperate to see thomson do well as it would benefit the team, it's just we require evidence on a sustained basis it can be achieved, and not the odd 10 minute cameo of neat passing and control sandwiched in between months and months of seemingly endless chronic injury problems, suspensions, and now even missing games because of a weak immune system

bill_door Posted on 07/03/2012 20:23
kevin thomson - the stats

Have to agree with captain, I think that Thomson is poor defensively.

He keeps the ball by playing a short pass and usually it's not to a player in a better position to do something with it, it's too-often just shirking responsibility and making someone else do something constructive. He has a lack of adventure, lack of drive and slows the game down regardless of the tempo we're trying to play. He does try the occasional Hollywood ball, with a proportionate success rate. Bailey also tries those balls, as does Arca.

All opinions but I don't see a great deal of positive impact on the team when he plays, I see the opposite. That possibly has something to do with the low number of wins when he plays though.

Adi_Dem Posted on 07/03/2012 20:25
kevin thomson - the stats

That's not what you're doing though. I've provided you with what I think his qualities are and I've told you that I can point to incidents but can't remember which games they're in. I could point to, for example, two absolute peaches In one game that split the defence and put McDonald and Emnes in on goal. Would that make any difference though?

You see you're not providing any evidence by simply saying that you can't remember any redeeming moments. That makes it an imbalanced approach.

Adi_Dem Posted on 07/03/2012 20:28
kevin thomson - the stats

Dude - you're confusing my view on his injury record and my view of his abilities. If you want to discuss his injury record etc then I will no doubt agree with your conclusions. It's on his abilities that we disagree.

Bill - I'm not talking about Hollywood balls either. I disagree with all of your second paragraph.

I think the discussion has probably gone as far as it can though. The only thing that will change it is him playing a sustained run of games.

the_dude_strikes_back Posted on 07/03/2012 20:30
kevin thomson - the stats

we all hope that your 'faith' in thomsons ability becomes factual adi, in the same way we all hope there is a god, but there is very little evidence to support it

Adi_Dem Posted on 07/03/2012 20:31
kevin thomson - the stats

In your opinion dude. Don't be fooled into believing its any more than that.

the_dude_strikes_back Posted on 07/03/2012 20:33
kevin thomson - the stats

Not just my opinion Adi, in this instance, your the vocal minority

Adi_Dem Posted on 07/03/2012 20:34
kevin thomson - the stats

I'm not saying that it's just your opinion, I'm saying it's just an opinion.

Once, the majority thought the earth was flat.

bill_door Posted on 07/03/2012 20:38
kevin thomson - the stats

If you're not talking about Hollywood balls then you're seeing a lot more vision from him than I've seen.

As you've said, it's gone as far as it can. The Dude is right, we'd like nothing more than for your viewpoint to be proved right over time, I don't think we'll ever see him play enough though.

Adi_Dem Posted on 07/03/2012 20:40
kevin thomson - the stats

Fair enough. Good discussion.

captain5 Posted on 07/03/2012 20:41
kevin thomson - the stats

Not really; as I've said I can think of ones for other players. I've also pointed out what I think his deficiencies are.

Steele - great performances against a number of teams, Derby probably being the most obvious and best.

Hoyte - Much better attacking than he has ever been in the past. Consistently gets to byline and overlaps now, like at Cardiff away.

Bates - great reader of the game. despite his slight stature doesn't get bullied that much and adds extra dimension through his ability to bring ball out of defence. Also chipped in with goals like at Posh and Pompey.

Hines - much improved player; man of the match last night, won everything in the air again looks an attacking threat at setpieces. Also does well at playing the ball out of defence, like one fantastic ball against Forest in the first half.

Bennett - Haven't been his biggest fan this season and he still makes a lot of mistakes but he's still a potent attacking force. Great run for the goal at Turf Moor.

That's just the backline.

Bailey's covering when we've needed him putting last ditchers all over the shop has been immense all year. Also played great balls like the one to Hoyte to set up McDonald.

Robson, you can add as many as you like, maybe even nearly as many as his bookings.

Haroun, great touch and composure for goal away from home.

Hamill - that cross that Juke should've converted last night at the start.

Marvin, again not his biggest fan but when he doesn't have time to think he has showed he has an attacking instinct that makes him difficult to stop. My favourite though was his goal at Palace.

McDonald, has his critics but that team play at Sunderland his poaching instincts make him invaluable. Shame we couldn't capitalise on his double against Blackpool.

captain5 Posted on 07/03/2012 20:43
kevin thomson - the stats

I'd also just refer back to your point about (other) good players who've been criticised and the ones you named, even now you'd get to a dozen of the examples like above where they'd done well.

coluka Posted on 07/03/2012 20:43
kevin thomson - the stats

He has undoubted ability, but he does seem to have temporarily misplaced it since coming to Boro

His pass rate stats may be ok - he is the best passer we have over a distance of 8 feet, providing it's sidewards or a back pass

Chappy112 Posted on 07/03/2012 20:47
kevin thomson - the stats

Thomson has only played in 5 losses and one was against Sunderland which we lost in extra time after he had come off so you can't really say that had anything to do with him.

Kevin Thomson has made 14 appearance's this season in 8 of those games we kept clean sheets. You can do anything with statistics you see. [smi]

Best to just watch and decide for yourself and from the times I have watched Thomson I think he's a good player. He would be even more effective with creative players around him, hopefully Hammill will provide that.

Adi_Dem Posted on 07/03/2012 20:50
kevin thomson - the stats

Yes, really.

You've listed a number of attributes of certain players and all of those are your opinion on those players. You've added to a few specific incidents.

In the same way I've provided my view on Thomson and have pointed to a specific incident. It just happens that you disagree with it.

What I'm also saying is though that it is very easy for you to simply say that you can't think of any in relation to Thomson and then to challenge me to do so. It's as simple as this - I rate him and you don't.

captain5 Posted on 07/03/2012 20:53
kevin thomson - the stats

It's actually an incident you can't be specific about at all.

I think you're just hoping he comes good.

Adi_Dem Posted on 07/03/2012 20:56
kevin thomson - the stats

You see, I knew that's where you'd end up. I think that's quite a childish and pathetic argument to be honest captain. No, I can't remember the particular games. I'm sorry about that. If you want to believe that that somehow undermines my entire viewpoint and somehow proves you right and enables you to dismiss my view as nothing more than hope then fine. As I say, I think that's really poor form.

captain5 Posted on 07/03/2012 21:07
kevin thomson - the stats

Not really.

We've pretty much established that he hasn't done anything of note this season, which considering the leaps and bounds we've made as a team is strange.

I'll give you a decent pass he made as a gift although don't think it was anything more than a simple ball. Last few seconds at Palace, sent Emnes away clear who, having far too much time, ended up putting the ball wide with the last kick of the game before lying on his back for a minute.

Have they stopped sending you dvds of all the games??

Jdub Posted on 07/03/2012 21:09
kevin thomson - the stats

Like I said before adi must be thomsons agent or lover!

Adi_Dem Posted on 07/03/2012 21:39
kevin thomson - the stats

Yes, really. Again.

No, you have opined that that is the case and I haven't agreed with you. I don't agree with you. I could point to incidents from the Shrewsbury gameand the one I have mentioned (again I'm sorry that I can't remember the specific game) but you would no doubt rely on the standard of opposition. I could point to the key role he played in our good run at the end of last season and you'd ask for specific instances.

It's a frankly ridiculous stance to adopt safe in the knowledge that whatever I say you will have an answer. Your view is no more valid than mine, no matter how much you want it to be.

Oh, and no, I haven't had DVDs for a long while now. I have to rely on Internet feeds or match attendance. Quite what that has to do with anything is anyone's guess.

stepanovs Posted on 07/03/2012 21:44
kevin thomson - the stats

This season we've played our best stuff without him, and we don't miss him when he is out like we do with Robson and Bailey for example.

Good passer of the ball (if usually safe 10 yard sideways passes) and rarely loses possession so a useful squad member to have if he were ever fit.

captain5 Posted on 07/03/2012 21:44
kevin thomson - the stats

I'd happily take some evidence of any game he's played in. I'd use the finishes that Emnes produced at Walsall as evidence of how he'd improved.

Well next time you have an argument with anyone on here don't ask them to provide you with any evidence as that would be properly hypocritical.

Opinions are fine and there is the obvious saying about them but you seem to be happy with lots of non-descript play. If he does start to play well, don't tell us you told us so, like you would normally do, because frankly you haven't.

God help us if Thomson is given a position in the club's executive structure or all hell will break loose in all Directions.

captain5 Posted on 07/03/2012 21:46
kevin thomson - the stats

Oh and as for the end of last season; I agree, I thought he played pretty well in those games.

Not amazing but pretty well.

Seems strange you could remember those games though and not the more ones from this season though.

captain5 Posted on 07/03/2012 21:48
kevin thomson - the stats

Or can you not remember those either??

Jeez and I thought I was drunk at some games..... (I was like)

Adi_Dem Posted on 07/03/2012 21:55
kevin thomson - the stats

Wrong again captain. I'm not criticising your request for evidence at all and so to attempt to use that against me is wrong.

I've simply asked that you accept two things and respect my opinion, which seems to be beyond you on this thread despite the fact that I fully respect your view and even understand why you hold it.

Firstly, that it's an easier and therefore unbalanced position for you to adopt because you can simply say that you can't think of any piece of play that redeems him. That is all you need to say without any possibility of you being able to produce evidence because you can't prove the negative.

Secondly, that I can remember such incidents and can describe them to you but that without remembering the game they were in it's pretty meaningless. As I've said, if the crux of what you're saying is that because I can't name the games in which I think these pieces of play occurred my view is undermined then I can't and won't agree with you. I think that smacks of desperation to 'win' an argument.

I've told you what I think he does well and I think he's shown those qualities to varying degrees in every game he's played for us. I don't think me pointing to, for example, a perfect pass to Ogbeche that put him clean through in the Shrewsbury game is going to make my view any stronger.

As for the suggestion as to what I would normally do, again, yet another uncalled for dig with absolutely no provocation all because you happen to disagree with me.

What your final sentence is all about I have no clue.

Adi_Dem Posted on 07/03/2012 21:57
kevin thomson - the stats

I couldn't tell you the opposition in those games. You're not asking for games where I think he's played well this season. I dare say I could go through a fixture list and pick those out. You were asking for very specific pieces of play and I can't remember which games those occurred in or when they happened. I don't think that's unusual.

captain5 Posted on 07/03/2012 22:06
kevin thomson - the stats

Fair enough.

I think you can't remember any individual impact because there hasn't been many. I don't think you have memory problems.

Can't remember the play at Shrewsbury; I thought he was part of the problem in slowing us down when we could've gone at them more. I remember him getting booked. He might have played a great ball but I can't think of it. Martin set up the goal didn't he??

captain5 Posted on 07/03/2012 22:08
kevin thomson - the stats

Oh and as he hasn't played that many times, I don't mind you picking out when he's played well this season.

gravyboat Posted on 07/03/2012 22:12
kevin thomson - the stats

He's not a first team player, even if fit.

Bailey, Robson and Williams will be all be picked ahead of him for the rest of the season.

Adi_Dem Posted on 07/03/2012 22:12
kevin thomson - the stats

I don't remember who set it up. Ogbeche didn't score that chance though and we were kicking into the North stand at that point. The only reason I remember it is because it was mentioned on a thread just like this.

Look, I respect your view and understand it. He's not offered good value for us. Do I think he's a world beater? No. Do I think he offers nothing? No. I think he's a good player and could be an extremely valuable, key part of our team.

It's felt a bit like I was under attack here simply for holding a different view and some of the things you've posted are about me rather than the topic, which I didn't think was fair. That's all.




Adi_Dem Posted on 07/03/2012 22:15
kevin thomson - the stats

Oh and I disagree gravy. If he's fit I think he plays. Williams will play in defence anyway but my view is that Mogga will pick him whenever he can.

bill_door Posted on 07/03/2012 22:15
kevin thomson - the stats

"Kevin Thomson has made 14 appearance's this season in 8 of those games we kept clean sheets. You can do anything with statistics you see.[smi]"

[:D]

8 games, not bad.

Unless you consider the amount of brief sub appearances in there - from those 8, he only played 30 minutes or more in 3 of them. And one was Shrewsbury who should have put at least 3 past us.

I love football me, like.

captain5 Posted on 07/03/2012 22:22
kevin thomson - the stats

It's a message board with history from previous exchanges.

In the same way as I mentioned Raz earlier.

Whether it's Viv and his young lad romancing or Matty and his lovely ankle ribbons or Dude considering Bale to be a slowcoach, it's all fair game.

However, back to Thomson, unless you want to do a Dude - "I think he's a good player and XXXXXX the rest of your opinions" then you're going to invite and have to accept some arguments.

What you get on here is very rarely worse than you get in the pub with your mates.

Which reminds me, young(ish) morpethred as you're reading, have to remind Lincolnred of that John Terry V Chris Riggott argument. Haven't done that in a while.

Adi_Dem Posted on 07/03/2012 22:26
kevin thomson - the stats

If those comments were meant in that way then no problem from me at all, it just didn't seem like that.

My only question would be in relation to your fourth paragraph. Are you not, in exactly the same way, saying "I think he's a bad player and XXXXXX the rest of your opinions"?

I could just as easily say to you that you can't remember any positive impact because you don't want to.

captain5 Posted on 07/03/2012 22:32
kevin thomson - the stats

No. If he starts to play well, then I'll credit him with it.

From history I was one of the harshest (and it was hard to get to the top of this list) critics of Brad Jones. Indeed after that debacle at Sunderland I said he should never play for us again.

He totally turned it round for himself and in the end I was one of his staunchest defenders at this level and in some ways in the relegation season when it was clearly goalscoring that was the problem.

Likewise, Hoyte. Had a real problem with a perceived lack of heart but I think he's been excellent this season.

Adi_Dem Posted on 07/03/2012 22:36
kevin thomson - the stats

I'm not saying that is what you're doing. What I am demonstrating is that those things you posted (eg that I can't remember the specifics of incidents because they didn't happen) could be equally levelled at you in the same way.

I'm trying to point out that, ultimately, ours are simply just two different views of the same player.

viv_andersons_nana Posted on 07/03/2012 22:48
kevin thomson - the stats

I have a feeling that you're not going to let that 'romantic' comment lie, captain.

[smi]

captain5 Posted on 07/03/2012 22:49
kevin thomson - the stats

I don't think they are.

I recognise what his attributes can be.

This is not Downing doesn't try and beat his man any more.

I think it's more a question of his efficacy. I haven't seen it and I don't think I'm alone in that.

You are telling me you have and that's why I've pressed the point.

I think if we were talking strikers it's a bit easier; chances missed and taken, created and wasted; pretty easy to identify.

However a player like Thomson, is harder to judge so a discussion of what he has actually done is fair I think.

I have a pretty good memory so probably shouldn't call others on that, but despite my good memory I genuinely can't remember 'THAT' moment.

There are moments we take from every game that we visit, both good and bad and it's why we spend this crazy money. I can't think of any great ones involving Thomson.

Daft example but that ball Robson played to Emnes last night that he hit at the 'keeper; that should be a Thomson ball and he just doesn't do it for me.

I don't even think I've fallen into the 'he's never fit' gang, which would have been dead easy to do. If I was just anti-Thomson and not going to change my mind, that would have been easy for me to do.

captain5 Posted on 07/03/2012 22:51
kevin thomson - the stats

Viv you're just a gift that keeps on giving.

[:D]

Adi_Dem Posted on 07/03/2012 22:58
kevin thomson - the stats

I understand exactly what you're saying. I'd go one further (and this isn't a cop out by the way) by saying that the attributes I most associate with him do not lend themselves to individual moments of brilliance that make you go 'wow'.

Whilst you clearly can't remember any incidents that redeem him, I can. That I can't tell you when and where they happened is my failing but it isn't one that I think fundamentally renders my view weak or flawed, it's just simply that I can't remember.

You don't have to rely on any evidence to be able to say "I don't rate him and I can't remember anything of any note he's done", whereas I do because mine is a positive assertion (whereas yours is rather the absence of something).

Maybe there isn't a catalogue of magic moments but I think I've already conceded that. My view of him is more based on longer passages of play that I've appreciated.

viv_andersons_nana Posted on 07/03/2012 23:02
kevin thomson - the stats

[smi]

For what it's worth, at this very late stage of the debate, I'd like to say that I can remember Thomson making at least three excellent tackles against Sunderland at home. They were on one of their midfielders. He went in very aggressively and emerged with the ball before picking a pass. He had a really good game that night. I think that's what we'll get when he gets himself fully-fit and firing. Someone who can tackle and play a pass. I shall keep my fingers crossed.

captain5 Posted on 07/03/2012 23:05
kevin thomson - the stats

Would you accept that people may not concede the 'longer passages of play' argument due to his limited time on the pitch??

I do think he should've had more impact anyway, no matter if I rate him or not. I don't see why he hasn't had any decent long range efforts either of us can think of or great assists.

Evil Posted on 07/03/2012 23:06
kevin thomson - the stats

For the amount he has played, and the fact that he hasnt really done much, he needs to go.

Shame, as he puts the effort in, but he doesnt play enough.

Another Digard.

captain5 Posted on 07/03/2012 23:13
kevin thomson - the stats

That's more like it from Viv.

I'll go with that. Thought he looked better against Sunderland; bit more time to play the ball from his defensive position against his PL team.

Only thing I would say is that I think they let you do that but then close harder and better further up the field, so that may be in his favour.

That's not a criticism of him though as he was playing that deeper position. Up to the players in front to do that job (if he's playing the Bailey role).

It also meant he hadn't dashed forward as much and then struggled to get back, which I'd think we all would concede he struggles with at the moment and has caused him a lot of his disciplinary problems.

Adi_Dem Posted on 07/03/2012 23:19
kevin thomson - the stats

As I've already said, I concede that I understand where you're coming from even if I don't agree.

There are lots of times that I remember being impressed by Thomson for one reason or another and thinking "that was good play", I just simply can't tell you when they happened. For example I do remember in a game this season a perfect ass to McDonald to put him clean through and he missed the chance.

His struggles, for me, are all fitness related. Mowbray said he needs 10 games on the bounce t be judged. Obviously there's a massive question mark over whether he can achieve that but I do agree with his assessment.

boroboy02 Posted on 07/03/2012 23:25
kevin thomson - the stats

Steaming pile of turd.

viv_andersons_nana Posted on 07/03/2012 23:30
kevin thomson - the stats

Yeah I think he perhaps benefited from having slightly more time and space, when in possession, against Sunderland. I think all the lads looked better in those games than they have in the league of late, to be frank. Whether we simply raised our games, or just enjoyed the extra second to think when we had the ball, I'm not sure. It's one of the reasons I was so positive about Thomson after the game that night. He could play in the Premier League and not look out of place. He'd benefit so much from something so simple as having an extra half-second/second on the ball, the extra half a yard of space to play in. I think in this league it's full throttle, a right old battle from the off, a right old muck'n'nettles affair and players need to be fully-fit and firing to be able to handle it. Especially a player like Thomson.

But, I'll end my waffling there for now. I still think he'll be a very good player for us, I don't doubt his quality and all we can do is hope his fitness problems are behind him now. After this virus, I mean.

captain5 Posted on 07/03/2012 23:32
kevin thomson - the stats

When do you think that will be, Viv?

First team player for us or dependent on injuries and multi-game suspensions for Robson??

viv_andersons_nana Posted on 07/03/2012 23:39
kevin thomson - the stats

I'd like to think it'd be for us but the longer this goes on, the injuries, the suspensions, the constant in and out of the team stuff, it becomes difficult to see where he will fit in. As it stands, I'd have to name him as a substitute and he'd have to wait until Robson's ban kicks in or we pick up an injury or two.

Bailey and Williams stroll into the midfield, Robson just in front with Hammill and Emnes either side of big Lukas. I'm a big fan of Thomson but even I would admit that he will have to wait for his chance now.

captain5 Posted on 07/03/2012 23:42
kevin thomson - the stats

Hope you're not calling Mogga a liar.......

viv_andersons_nana Posted on 07/03/2012 23:46
kevin thomson - the stats

I wouldn't dare, captain. I wouldn't dare. No, I'm just saying what I would do if I was in the hot-seat. Thomson would have to wait for his chance really. It's only fair. Mowbray clearly rates him but I'd be surprised if he didn't consider Bailey, Robson and Williams to be more important players for us at this moment in time.

UAUA Posted on 07/03/2012 23:54
kevin thomson - the stats

10 games in a row? It's obviously not going to happen.

skiprat Posted on 08/03/2012 00:13
kevin thomson - the stats

It could have happened if he wasn't stupid enough to be sent off right in the middle of our worst injury crisis.

Going down the captain route is there any evidence of Mowbray busting a gut to get him in the team as described because I don't remember this chain of events (for the second time).

No chance of him getting into midfield ahead of Bailey, Robson and Williams. He simply hasn't showed form to be picked ahead of them.

plazmuh Posted on 08/03/2012 00:16
kevin thomson - the stats

HES NO ROBBIE MUSTOE

Regards
Plazmuh
[:D][:D][^]

captain5 Posted on 08/03/2012 00:19
kevin thomson - the stats

Funnily enough I think the main impediment to him getting in the team might now be Hines.

I think Bates and Hines is now your CB duo and only if one of them gets injured/suspended will Williams drop back in.

Bates is captain and I reckon Hines is pretty much our form player at the moment.

Strachans_Tossed_Caber Posted on 08/03/2012 00:20
kevin thomson - the stats

Shouldn't be in our first team when we have a full squad. Simple as that. [^]

viv_andersons_nana Posted on 08/03/2012 00:48
kevin thomson - the stats

Yep, I agree with that captain. I was thinking about it earlier in the thread, when I was trying to decide where Thomson would fit in. I thought of him 'sitting' alongside Bailey with Robson, or Haroun, just in front and Williams back there with Bates. But Hines' form means Williams stays in midfield and Thomson has to sit out and wait for his chance. You just can't leave Bailey, Hines, Robson or Williams out at the moment.

captain5 Posted on 08/03/2012 00:55
kevin thomson - the stats

Yeah, I agree with that.

I still stand by saying he'll only get back when Bailey gets injured and/or Robson gets his proper suspension.

Humpty Posted on 08/03/2012 07:10
kevin thomson - the stats

To answer cpatains question of a specific game...Cardiff away last season. He ran that game.

Thomson is a Carrick type player. He doesn't score goals and you wouldn't class him as a defensive player. When used correctly he makes the team tick. Mowbray has stated he wants to build the team around players Thomson because he's a ball player.

He will be a first team player if manages to keep himself fit. That's obvious problem though.

Jdub Posted on 08/03/2012 07:47
kevin thomson - the stats

Only plays as a last resort as been proved!end of .

Humpty Posted on 08/03/2012 07:52
kevin thomson - the stats

Well that's just not true....'End of'

bangoutoforder Posted on 08/03/2012 16:09
kevin thomson - the stats

so did we come to any conclusions? that my stats were meaningless after all?

Humpty Posted on 08/03/2012 22:01
kevin thomson - the stats

Yes. Your stats are meaningless.

Jdub Posted on 08/03/2012 22:20
kevin thomson - the stats

Gone at the end of the season ,simples!

Jdub Posted on 08/03/2012 22:25
kevin thomson - the stats

Not started a game when Bailey and robson have been fit ,that's confidence from mowbray , our midfield if available will be hammil,bailey,Williams,robson,where's our luxury player who sees the passes others don't ....er![?]

viv_andersons_nana Posted on 08/03/2012 22:25
kevin thomson - the stats

Ah, the old 'simples' sign-off. Can't beat a bit of intellectualism of an evening.

Jdub Posted on 08/03/2012 22:28
kevin thomson - the stats

University educated like!

Adi_Dem Posted on 08/03/2012 22:29
kevin thomson - the stats

That's simply not true Jdub. I respect your opinion but there's no need to make stuff up to justify it.

Jdub Posted on 08/03/2012 22:31
kevin thomson - the stats

Adi who would he replace in that midfield??

Jdub Posted on 08/03/2012 22:37
kevin thomson - the stats

Point proven

Jonny_Ingbar Posted on 08/03/2012 22:44
kevin thomson - the stats

Another bizarre KT thread.

A good player who admittedly hasn't done it for us yet, largely due to injuries and a couple of suspensions.

But the manager rates him highly and I'll take his educated, professional opinion over the feckless comments that profligate this thread and others like it.

Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 08/03/2012 22:45
kevin thomson - the stats

He'll replace Williams in there, he's a better midfielder than him. Williams will be in the back four when we're full strength and fully fit.

We haven't had all of our midfield fit at the same time this season, that's why Mowbray's had to play whoever he has available.

Steel-City_Smoggy Posted on 08/03/2012 22:48
kevin thomson - the stats

I am interested to know what people Think he has done so far, 0 goals, 0 assists, poor passing, sluggish and has done a XXXXXX poor role of protecting the back four.


coluka Posted on 08/03/2012 22:49
kevin thomson - the stats

the new paul okon [|)]

Jdub Posted on 08/03/2012 22:50
kevin thomson - the stats

Williams is our best player no matter if he plays in midfield or defence and Mowbray won't drop Hines so...

bill_door Posted on 08/03/2012 22:50
kevin thomson - the stats

Actually it is true.

Thomson has started just two games this season when both Bailey and Robson have been available. Millwall when he was subbed and then our first defeat of the season - a woeful performance at Forest.

The fixture list is interesting. Look at our fantastic start to the season without Thomson, remember how it was going brilliantly right up until we beat Palace? That's when Thomson started his comeback, we followed it up with four draws (including three 0-0s) and then that Forest match when he got injured again.

We then won 7 from 11 when he was injured, then he came back and we went six weeks without a win.

Whilst he's been suspended/ill, we've won 4 from 5.

I'm not saying anything, but those patterns suggest we do better when he's not involved, yes?

Steel-City_Smoggy Posted on 08/03/2012 22:51
kevin thomson - the stats

I'd rather have Doriva.

I reckon Thomson paid off a load of FMTTMers with his fat signing on fee to ensure that some people made him out as being a good footballer however he played.

Adi_Dem Posted on 08/03/2012 22:54
kevin thomson - the stats

Well, it isn't true. Thomson has started games with both Bailey and Robson.

Jdub - if there is a time limit of 6 minutes before you're point is 'proven' you'll have to let me know. He will replace Williams in midfield, put simply. Robson is preferred on the right by Mowbray, he's said so.

In answer to your question bill, I would agree if Thomson was the only variable. Since he isn't and give the multitude of others I'll go with no.

Jdub Posted on 08/03/2012 22:54
kevin thomson - the stats

Steel city I couldnt agree more[^]

Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 08/03/2012 22:55
kevin thomson - the stats

bill door, it depends on a lot of things, you can't just point the finger at one man....he came in just before Bailey was injured, Robson was out for a spell too.....they are our two best players, never mind Williams


bill_door Posted on 08/03/2012 22:57
kevin thomson - the stats

Thought you might Adi[:D]

No Thomson - brilliant
With Thomson - wobbly
No Thomson - brilliant
With Thomson - shít
No Thomson - brilliant

At worst we suffer when he's available, at best he's a XXXXXXing Jonah.

Adi_Dem Posted on 08/03/2012 22:58
kevin thomson - the stats

Emnes was injured for a time, McDonald was and is now, we played different opposition and on and on.

Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 08/03/2012 23:00
kevin thomson - the stats

Yet at the end of last season, with him in the side, we went on a run that if repeated may win us promotion....too far back for you to remember?

Adi_Dem Posted on 08/03/2012 23:00
kevin thomson - the stats

So what about the good run last season when he was in the team? Do we ignore that because it doesnt suit your argument?

What about every other variable? Do we ignore them too?

I have no problem with your view of him, I do have a problem with your way of justifying it though.

bill_door Posted on 08/03/2012 23:01
kevin thomson - the stats

Corcaigh, I'm not pointing the finger, it's just a hell of a freakish coincidence. For what it's worth I've said before that Bailey being injured was the main cause of our poor form since New Year, but we've won 4 of the last 5 and Bailey has only played in one of those so that weakens the Bailey argument a bit.

You could argue other factors like a new style of player in Juke, the superb form of Hines and also Marvin getting some confidence back, it just also happens that it's again coincided with the return and then absence of Thomson. The fella is cursed, I tell you.

Steel-City_Smoggy Posted on 08/03/2012 23:04
kevin thomson - the stats

I find that the people that still rate him don't actually go to any matches. Strange that [|)]

Adi_Dem Posted on 08/03/2012 23:06
kevin thomson - the stats

They can't do if they disagree with you.

bill_door Posted on 08/03/2012 23:07
kevin thomson - the stats

I'm not justifying anything, my opinion of Thomson is based purely on the performances I've seen. I'm just having some fun.

As for the end of last season, I remember it well and don't attribute it to any one player, it was a natural part of our progression under Mowbray. We were absolute dogXXXXXX under Strachan and Mowbray slowly got things turned around. By the time we got to March we'd started playing some decent football and stopped conceding late goals, the pressure of relegation was lifted and we went on a good run with nothing to play for for most of it. It was nothing more than progression, Thomson was involved and had one or two good games.

The 'key man' argument doesn't hold up as we continued that form without Thomson at the start of the season.

Adi_Dem Posted on 08/03/2012 23:10
kevin thomson - the stats

Firstly, I apologise, using words like 'I have a problem with....' was too aggressive. I didn't mean it like that.

In answer to your question, I find it odd that when Thomson was in the team and the team was doing well you attribute that to 'progression' whereas when he is playing during bad runs or missing during good ones it's all down to him. A strange position to adopt.

Steel-City_Smoggy Posted on 08/03/2012 23:12
kevin thomson - the stats

What are his key contributions to the team Adi?

Adi_Dem Posted on 08/03/2012 23:13
kevin thomson - the stats

See above. That's been done to death on this thread.

bill_door Posted on 08/03/2012 23:15
kevin thomson - the stats

No worries Adi, you could have called me a dafcun and there'd be no offence taken.[^]

Alright, ignoring the differing fortunes of our form this season, one question before I go to bed - we hit great form for our last 12 matches of last season, which I think was brought about by the return of confidence and a better style of football, mixed with pressure being lifted - do you think we'd have had that good run if Thomson had been injured?

Steel-City_Smoggy Posted on 08/03/2012 23:16
kevin thomson - the stats

You've put goals at one of his main contributions to the team! [V]

Adi_Dem Posted on 08/03/2012 23:18
kevin thomson - the stats

Yes, probably but then I'd give you the same answer if you asked me the same question in relation to any other player. I don't think we had anyone that was irreplaceable at that time.

That said, I think he was a key figure in how well we played and the good run we had. In fact, he got better the more he played, which is what I think his current problem is.

Adi_Dem Posted on 08/03/2012 23:19
kevin thomson - the stats

No I haven't Smoggy, read again.

Steel-City_Smoggy Posted on 08/03/2012 23:20
kevin thomson - the stats

[:D][:P]

bill_door Posted on 08/03/2012 23:20
kevin thomson - the stats

Fair enough, which brings us back to needing him to actually play properly again for a length of time before this can be settled.[:D][^]

Steel-City_Smoggy Posted on 08/03/2012 23:26
kevin thomson - the stats

How long is long enough to prove yourself? Even if he remained gash until the end of the season people would still say wait until next season. He has played 30+ games now and there is still nothing to report on. Other players have been in and out of the team Smallwood, Hines, Ogbeche etc and although having not set the world alight they have all shown some sort of positive contribution.

Adi_Dem Posted on 08/03/2012 23:33
kevin thomson - the stats

As has Thomson. You're confusing your opinion with something more than that.