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Buddy Posted on 13/01/2012 14:27
Atheists should respect the faith of others

OK. If they promise that they'll never try and convert anyone.

Muttley Posted on 13/01/2012 14:28
Atheists should respect the faith of others

Since when was "respect" synonymous with "convert"?

Dibzzz Posted on 13/01/2012 14:30
Atheists should respect the faith of others

I do.

What I don't like is them expecting you to share their point of view and forcing their beliefs into general society and onto kids.

squarewheelbike Posted on 13/01/2012 14:34
Atheists should respect the faith of others

Having worked with many Asian people of various religions over the last few years, I began to hide my atheism, not because they would try and convert me, but because they were genuinely concerned for my eternal soul, and it would upset them, and cause them to worry.

celestial_teapot Posted on 13/01/2012 14:35
Atheists should respect the faith of others

Theists should respect the beliefs of others too


stan007 Posted on 13/01/2012 14:38
Atheists should respect the faith of others

What I don't like is them expecting you to share their point of view and forcing their beliefs into general society and onto kids.


this works both ways though... how mnay times do I hear atheists trying to convince me there is no God, the bbile is a joke etc...

I have a veggie mate who never tries to comvert anyone and keeps his opinions and ideas to himself... yet the number of meat eaters who try to bait him etc... come one its good for you, it is natural or of course...

Why are you veggie???

He has never asked anyone why they eat meat!

JonMc Posted on 13/01/2012 14:43
Atheists should respect the faith of others

There is a growing lack of respect in society full stop. It's all me, me, me nowadays coming firmly on the heels of 'I demand the right to...'.

This applies to all denominations as far as I can see.

I say growing rather than 'general' because the issue isn't that pressing imo - but it will be if we don't sort ourselves out. As it is the general attitude is that folk are willing to get along happily, it's only the shouty theists and antitheists who cause the problems at the moment.

squarewheelbike Posted on 13/01/2012 14:48
Atheists should respect the faith of others

I don't respect this mind!


Link: Tsunami

Dibzzz Posted on 13/01/2012 14:51
Atheists should respect the faith of others

Stan007

The difference with atheism is that there's no designated leader, no doctrine, scripture, rules to obey, no building to gather in to express your non belief, no ritual etc etc.

So it's easier to convince people there is a god within the parameters above, especially younger people.

I'm not trying being clever or anything, but which god do you believe in?

celestial_teapot Posted on 13/01/2012 14:53
Atheists should respect the faith of others

That tsunami video is scary; that someone can actually believe that is unbelievable.

I'd actually categorise her as mentally unbalanced rather than very, very stupid.

Utterly sick, that she can praise her God for killing so many Japanese people just so that I might believe in her God


Dibzzz Posted on 13/01/2012 14:55
Atheists should respect the faith of others

I think her parents should have a quiet word with her.

ollydog Posted on 13/01/2012 14:57
Atheists should respect the faith of others

Secular society which is essentialy atheist society does have leaders and doctrine and places of worship.just visit Teesside park,what it lacks is any moral code underpinning it.and no I'm not a Christian I'm am an atheist

celestial_teapot Posted on 13/01/2012 14:58
Atheists should respect the faith of others

Her parents are probably responsible for creating that monster

Dibzzz Posted on 13/01/2012 15:00
Atheists should respect the faith of others

Yeah probably.

Dibzzz Posted on 13/01/2012 15:02
Atheists should respect the faith of others

ollydog

I'm sorry but I don't follow what you're saying at all there?

Mr_Fairweather Posted on 13/01/2012 15:02
Atheists should respect the faith of others

Atheists should not respect faith because there is no such thing as 'God' in the accepted sense of the world. Similarly, Jesus Christ did not exist.

It is the duty of atheists to stop 'people of faith' wasting their lives.

stan007 Posted on 13/01/2012 15:04
Atheists should respect the faith of others

oh dear.. then religious people will continue to see it as their duty to convert... give it up...

someone isnt going to drop their faith cos you spout the same line they have heard a 1000 times some people really over rate their own importance!

Dibzzz Posted on 13/01/2012 15:06
Atheists should respect the faith of others

I respect their freedom to do what they like, I see it as a complete waste of time, but if they want to do that let them do it, as long as they don't annoy me or anyone else.

I prefer to see religion as a thing for the past, it's had it's day, now lets see how we can get on without it.

celestial_teapot Posted on 13/01/2012 15:07
Atheists should respect the faith of others

I'm atheist and I could not care less what anyone else does as long as they cause no harm.

Most atheists don't cause harm, or at least don't cause harm in the name of their belief i.e. the belief that God [or gods] does [or do] not exist.

Check the video above, that girl is unbalanced and her parents have likely caused that - forget about all the atrocities committed in the name of religion, we've had wars for many reasons, I actually think the damage done to that girl's mind is far, far worse - because it affects billions of people


squarewheelbike Posted on 13/01/2012 15:08
Atheists should respect the faith of others

Just after the Tsunami last year there was a Facebook page of Septics gloating, because they saw it as "khama" for Pearl Harbour and not being Christians!!!

Dibzzz Posted on 13/01/2012 15:08
Atheists should respect the faith of others

Stan

What makes me laugh is how people who pray to their gods, what makes them so important?

Muttley Posted on 13/01/2012 15:10
Atheists should respect the faith of others

"I respect their freedom to do what they like, I see it as a complete waste of time"

Clearly then you do not even understand the word "respect".

Dibzzz Posted on 13/01/2012 15:11
Atheists should respect the faith of others

I don't want anyone to drop their faith, it's up to them.

JonMc Posted on 13/01/2012 15:12
Atheists should respect the faith of others

A prime example being Mr Fairweather. 'It is the duty of atheists to stop 'people of faith' wasting their lives.' Oh dear. Sounds very much along the Jehova's Witness line to me.

This is the future of antitheism. Beware. Repent before it's too late.


Dibzzz Posted on 13/01/2012 15:12
Atheists should respect the faith of others

Mutt

Yes I do.

Julios_Hairband Posted on 13/01/2012 15:23
Atheists should respect the faith of others

"The difference with atheism is that there's no designated leader..."

Despite Dawkins best efforts.

Dibzzz Posted on 13/01/2012 15:24
Atheists should respect the faith of others

I wouldn't agree at all that a duty of an atheist is to stop people of faith to stop wasting their time.

Dibzzz Posted on 13/01/2012 15:25
Atheists should respect the faith of others

Julios

I'd think he'd take great exception to that statement.

JonMc Posted on 13/01/2012 15:26
Atheists should respect the faith of others

I think we need to draw some kind of distinction here.

There is a mile of difference between an atheist and an antitheist.

ollydog Posted on 13/01/2012 15:29
Atheists should respect the faith of others

What I am saying dib is that secularism portrays itself as some sort of overarching system where everyone can get along on some kind of common ground with the business of living.in reality it is just as dogmatic as any other religion.it is the religion of no god.so we accept there is no god,what is any higher purpose in life?because there is no god any decision about good or bad becomes pretty Arbitrary.maybe it's all about being happy.maybe you get that from gratification,that's what the shops tell us,if I have a 50" tv but the jones only have48" I'll be happy better go to church sorry shops to find out

Dibzzz Posted on 13/01/2012 15:32
Atheists should respect the faith of others

Atheism is not a religion, it is a non belief in the existence of gods.

That's a very important point, never confuse the two.

squarewheelbike Posted on 13/01/2012 15:32
Atheists should respect the faith of others

Nurse! He's out of bed again!

Dibzzz Posted on 13/01/2012 15:34
Atheists should respect the faith of others

olly

You don't need a god to live your life in a helpful, nice, respectful and loving way.

You certainly don't need a god to know the difference between good and bad.

7_The_Informer Posted on 13/01/2012 15:35
Atheists should respect the faith of others

Muttley - you're comment makes no sense whatsoever.

Just because you disagree with something (whether passively or vehemently) has no bearing on whether you have respect for them for making a certain decision.

That applies to anything in life, not just religion. I am not a mackem, I hate Sunderland FC with a passion but I respect completely a mackem who supports Sunderland FC if it's their local team...

stan007 Posted on 13/01/2012 15:36
Atheists should respect the faith of others

so your belief is the non-belief in any Gods...

all so black and white...

TheSmogMonster Posted on 13/01/2012 15:38
Atheists should respect the faith of others

Absence of belief is not a belief.

It's an absence of belief.

It's all right there in the words used.

Dibzzz Posted on 13/01/2012 15:38
Atheists should respect the faith of others

Stan

No it is not a belief in the same way as a belief in a god.

I just don't believe in god, it's not a belief, again, this confusion doesn't help matters.

Dibzzz Posted on 13/01/2012 15:40
Atheists should respect the faith of others

Well put smogmonster. [^]

ollydog Posted on 13/01/2012 15:49
Atheists should respect the faith of others

Dib what I am saying is if there is no god and we are indeed just a fairly hairless type of ape what does good or bad mean? It's just our construct.

Libbins Posted on 13/01/2012 15:53
Atheists should respect the faith of others

Why is it OK for religious people to preach but not Athiests?

Dibzzz Posted on 13/01/2012 15:55
Atheists should respect the faith of others

What's wrong with being just a hairless ape?

Why do people have to cling on to there's a reason for us to be here?

Just get on with it and enjoy it, you're only here once.

ollydog Posted on 13/01/2012 16:07
Atheists should respect the faith of others

Not suggesting there is a reason for us being here.just trying to point out there is no reason to adhere to concepts of right or wrong if there is no reason for us being here.please feel free to enjoy yourself in any way you feel,as long as you can get away with it what does it matter

squarewheelbike Posted on 13/01/2012 16:15
Atheists should respect the faith of others

I'll believe in any God, as long as it can be proved he/she/it exists!

SmogOnTheTees Posted on 13/01/2012 16:23
Atheists should respect the faith of others

That religious nut praising God for tsunamis is trolling. She admits it in another video...


Link: naughty

speckyget Posted on 13/01/2012 16:34
Atheists should respect the faith of others

Atheism isn't the absence of belief. It's the belief in absence.

red_shamrock Posted on 13/01/2012 16:36
Atheists should respect the faith of others

Come on which form of control are you lot in favour of then.

InMoggaITrust Posted on 13/01/2012 16:52
Atheists should respect the faith of others

Right, controversial or not, I respect that other people have the right to choose their religion and I think they have the right to preach. It p!sses me right off but there's not much I can do to stop that.

Atheism should be preached as much as humanly possible, religion causes little good and to be honest, it's a fiction. A fiction which through time has been used as a control method and will continue to cause war across the world until it is eradicated. I wouldn't want to be a hypocrite and say people can't preach their religions seen as I so freely push atheism. [^]

the_dude_strikes_back Posted on 13/01/2012 17:29
Atheists should respect the faith of others

no

part of the problem with silly religions is that your not allowed to criticise them, and that is how they gained so much ammunity strength to do whatever they pleased

for me, ridicule away, it's a free world and if somebody wants to criticise religion, tough XXXXXXe, it is like anything else and people should be allowed to say what they want about it, preposterous to tell people that it is somehow 'beyond questioning'

icarus1965 Posted on 13/01/2012 17:42
Atheists should respect the faith of others

Atheists

should work Christmas and Easter, and not give presents and easter eggs out as well...

oooooo Posted on 13/01/2012 17:45
Atheists should respect the faith of others

What's Christmas got to do with religion? Barely nothing is the answer.

McGonagall Posted on 13/01/2012 17:50
Atheists should respect the faith of others

The troubling word is "respect". If somebody told you that they believed in the pre-Copernican description of the universe you would dismiss them as idiots. Somebody says they believe in a much earlier biblical account of things and we're supposed to respect them. It simply doesn't make sense. They're idiots, full stop.

Jon_Mc Posted on 13/01/2012 17:53
Atheists should respect the faith of others

[:D]

icarus1965 Posted on 13/01/2012 17:55
Atheists should respect the faith of others

what has christmas got to do with religion

"oooooooo"

you are thicker than a whale omelette !!!

quite abit if your a christian..


yes i have my candidate

for whopper of month , may be of the year...

if you went to school you may have found that out..

oooooo Posted on 13/01/2012 17:59
Atheists should respect the faith of others

Almost everything about christmas is derived from earlier pagan festivals. Read up on it before calling people 'thick'.


Jon_Mc Posted on 13/01/2012 18:04
Atheists should respect the faith of others

Christianity annexed pagan festivals such as Winterval - 'tis true. Much in the same way that antitheists now are trying to annex terms such as free thought in an attempt to ridicule religion.

Nothing between the two as far as I can see.

icarus1965 Posted on 13/01/2012 18:09
Atheists should respect the faith of others

and for over 2000 years it,s been celebrated by christians.......

on 25th december.... a symbolic date...

atheists believe in nothing not even a pagan god...

the_dude_strikes_back Posted on 13/01/2012 18:17
Atheists should respect the faith of others

atheism in the absence of belief


funny as XXXXXX when daft arse christians call atheism a 'belief' system and XXXXXX on about the fact they don't have evidence that god 'doesn't exist' and therefore it's 50/50

Smoggy_Dave Posted on 13/01/2012 18:50
Atheists should respect the faith of others

Believing in a god brings out the evil and bigotry out of people. Snotty ignorant people. There are cases of blokes being thrown out of their church and not return because of their sexuality is one example. After all, in their world gays are unnatural and are an abomination aka dirty.

I respect people's faith to an extent, however, pushing it down others throats is bang out of order like them lot screaming Jesus in town centres or knocking on your door.

McGonagall Posted on 13/01/2012 18:57
Atheists should respect the faith of others

Icarus, cheers mate for demonstrating my point that believers in ancient lies are idiots. You make even Epiphany Proudfoot sound intelligent; which takes some doing.[rle]

Jon_Mc Posted on 13/01/2012 18:58
Atheists should respect the faith of others

It depends on the kind of religious person you are Dave. Religion also brings out the good in people, something I see all of the time.

The reoccurance of threads like these just proves that bigotry and ignorance is alive and well whether one believes in a God or not.

red_shamrock Posted on 13/01/2012 19:03
Atheists should respect the faith of others

Despite not having total belief that there is a God,It does make me overwhelmed with sadness that I may not be able to see my departed parents and family after I die.
So I make my own thing up as I'm sure there's something after.[^]

ThePRT-co-uk Posted on 13/01/2012 19:15
Atheists should respect the faith of others

Personally, I dont believe in god, I believe religion was created to control people as it was necessary in the times due to lack of other controls.
I don't believe in anything 'after' and don't know why people think there has to be a reason we are here - we are simply a collection of cells just like any other animal.

All that said, people have every right to believe in whatever makes them happy and gives them comfort and guidance.

I only ever 'preach' my view when someone comes knocking on my door to tell me all about theirs!

And religion may have been the excuse for a number of wars, but they did not cause them. MEN cause wars and if there was no religion, we'd just war over something else...land, food, oil etc...

Each to their own...be awful boring if we all believed and thought the same thing! [ref]

red_shamrock Posted on 13/01/2012 19:18
Atheists should respect the faith of others

Collection of Cells![:D] is there another animal that has a sense of humour..except maybe the laughing hyena.

Jon_Mc Posted on 13/01/2012 19:21
Atheists should respect the faith of others

Personally, I dont believe in god, I believe religion was created to control people as it was necessary in the times due to lack of other controls.
I don't believe in anything 'after' and don't know why people think there has to be a reason we are here - we are simply a collection of cells just like any other animal.

All that said, people have every right to believe in whatever makes them happy and gives them comfort and guidance.

I only ever 'preach' my view when someone comes knocking on my door to tell me all about theirs!

And religion may have been the excuse for a number of wars, but they did not cause them. MEN cause wars and if there was no religion, we'd just war over something else...land, food, oil etc...

Each to their own...be awful boring if we all believed and thought the same thing!
______________________________________________


Read this and then read it again. Most religious people and atheists in the UK think this way and there really shouldn't be a problem. If everyone thought this way we would have nirvana. Heaven on earth.

Right - that said you can all go back to calling people stupid. I'm off for a pint.

boro74 Posted on 13/01/2012 19:22
Atheists should respect the faith of others

Nobody knows what happens when we die. That's probably it. The end. But nobody knows. I bet even atheists hope that there's something.

red_shamrock Posted on 13/01/2012 19:22
Atheists should respect the faith of others

Dont go storming off to the pub in a bad mood.

red_shamrock Posted on 13/01/2012 19:24
Atheists should respect the faith of others

Your right, and nobody on this board has the answers.

Jon_Mc Posted on 13/01/2012 19:26
Atheists should respect the faith of others

Me? I'm always a happy JonMc, I am. [:D]

red_shamrock Posted on 13/01/2012 19:26
Atheists should respect the faith of others

[^]

ThePRT-co-uk Posted on 13/01/2012 19:30
Atheists should respect the faith of others

"I bet even atheists hope that there's something."
I'll be perfectly happy and excited to say I was wrong yes...
Of course I know that religionists wont get the chance to do the same if it's the other way round...because they'll be dead...for good...[:D]

CrazyL Posted on 13/01/2012 19:35
Atheists should respect the faith of others

'The troubling word is "respect". If somebody told you that they believed in the pre-Copernican description of the universe you would dismiss them as idiots. Somebody says they believe in a much earlier biblical account of things and we're supposed to respect them. It simply doesn't make sense. They're idiots, full stop.'

David Icke turns up on the tele wearing funny clothes and talking about odd supernatural beliefs and is slaughtered out of hand. Universally derided. The Archbishop of Cantebury turns up on the tele wearing funny clothes and talking about....you can see where I'm going with this I think?

ThePRT-co-uk Posted on 13/01/2012 19:39
Atheists should respect the faith of others

Did someone mention beer? I was told as a child that 'god will provide' but is there any beers in my fridge right now? No is the answer you are looking for so now I have to go to the shop myself...

God?! Water into wine? Can't even put beers in the bloody fridge!!!

I'm sure I have now converted you all...[ref]

McGonagall Posted on 13/01/2012 20:10
Atheists should respect the faith of others

Jon_mac seems to hijack every thread to do with religion on this board. He says that he is an atheist but 'respects' different points of view. If you genuinely believe that the biblical description of the origins of life is nonsense, it's irrational to respect people who cling to the traditional view. It's a bit like saying "I obviously accept that the earth is round but I have no problem with people who claim that it is flat."
It's a cop out.

McGonagall Posted on 13/01/2012 20:37
Atheists should respect the faith of others

Crazy L, I'm not quite sure what point you're making here. If you're saying that Icke and the Archbish of Cant. are both nutters I would agree with you but you seem to be getting at something else.

oooooo Posted on 13/01/2012 20:42
Atheists should respect the faith of others

"Jon_mac seems to hijack every thread to do with religion on this board. He says that he is an atheist but 'respects' different points of view. If you genuinely believe that the biblical description of the origins of life is nonsense, it's irrational to respect people who cling to the traditional view. It's a bit like saying "I obviously accept that the earth is round but I have no problem with people who claim that it is flat."
It's a cop out."

This ^^^^^


BobUpndown Posted on 13/01/2012 20:49
Atheists should respect the faith of others

personal faith is fine.. believe and worship what ever you want... or don't both fine by me.

Organised religion, particularly the leaders of the religions or sects, can be very corrosive to society and peoples well being.


ThePRT-co-uk Posted on 13/01/2012 20:54
Atheists should respect the faith of others

"If you genuinely believe that the biblical description of the origins of life is nonsense, it's irrational to respect people who cling to the traditional view."
Sorry, couldn't disagree more but it all depends on your definition of 'Respect' I guess. I think the meaning in this context is generally meant as:
To show consideration for; treat courteously or kindly
But I guess you could use:
to have an attitude of esteem towards

If you were to use the latter I guess you could argue that atheists have no respect for religionists...and vice versa...

ThePRT-co-uk Posted on 13/01/2012 21:01
Atheists should respect the faith of others

"is there another animal that has a sense of humour"

Well, my rabbit thought it was a blast to chew the corner of the brand new leather suite!

And next doors dog thinks it positively hilarious to drop his load right outside my back gate!

More seriously, there is a LOT of research to suggest many animals, not least of all apes do in fact have a sense of humour. Some may argue that it's even more advanced than many regular FMTTMers...

Jon_Mc Posted on 14/01/2012 00:14
Atheists should respect the faith of others

McGonagall.

I hijack every thread on religion? In what way exactly? I have a point of view as do you and we both have a right to express it. If you can provide a link showing a fmttm religious thread in which I comment and you and 000000 don't please provide it. Or are the new atheists equating free speech with absolutism?

Apologies accepted in advance. [:X]

And I'm not atheist - I just don't believe in any religious definition of God. There is a difference. I'm ignostic and there's never any shame in admitting you haven't got all the answers.

It is a shame however that some folk can't accept that I neither believe in a God but I have nevertheless been positively influenced by religious people who have entered my life.I find that a tad sad.

Did you ever finish Nemesis? What did you think the narrator's rather damning verdict on Bucky? Is he not just barking at the moon?

100Rod100 Posted on 14/01/2012 00:47
Atheists should respect the faith of others

to borrow a quote from the great Stephen Hawking "one cant prove that God doesnt exist, but science makes God unnecessary"

Jon_Mc Posted on 14/01/2012 00:54
Atheists should respect the faith of others

Our science is still so very young though. We are like toddlers beginning on the building blocks of the mysteries of the universe.

That's a bit eastern though...and deep enough for sleep.

Boromart Posted on 14/01/2012 01:03
Atheists should respect the faith of others

I'm not sure if ollydog is fishing or just really ill-informed.

Religious countries, like say the US for example have those non-religious leaders you speak of like presidents, they all also have that retail culture that you allude to that they 'worship'. It's senseless drivel to claim that secular countries have some exclusivity on these things.

Regarding 'lacks any moral code underpinning it'. That view point was proven to be utterly rubbish. Japan is the most Atheist country in the 1st world. It has the lowest per capita number of murders and rapes. The US has the highest number of THEISTS, and the highest number of rapes and murders per capita. The EXACT opposite to what you and others have suggested.

What is also important is that approx 15% of US is atheist, yet only 2% of the prrison population and 2% of the murderers/rapists are atheist. Again the opposite to what you are claiming.

Wide-ranging independant studies were done on this years ago. The figures absolutely refuted your claim that secularism leads to a society with no morals.

Of course digging deeper shows that the majority of people in prison had a very poor education, and the very vast majority of atheists had a very good education.....poor education is the reason for lack of a moral code, and in many cases belief in fairytales.

Society means working together for the greater good, selfish acts are immoral, selfless ones are good, we all know that regardless of what we do or dont believe in.

Trying to enforce that through fairytales doesn't work, if anything it blurs the lines of right and wrong as fundamentalists believe they are doing gods work killing a surgeon who performs abortion etc. Whereas atheists do not have anything to blur that line.

Boromart Posted on 14/01/2012 01:08
Atheists should respect the faith of others

"and for over 2000 years it,s been celebrated by christians.......

on 25th december.... a symbolic date..."

25th of December is a symbolic date for Atheists, its the day we get drunk, argue with our family and laugh at those bleary-eyed folk who stayed up until midnight in a cold church to sing to someone who logically cannot listen to them.

Muttley Posted on 14/01/2012 09:12
Atheists should respect the faith of others

Can one of you Atheists enlighten me as to which interpretation or meaning of the word "respect" you are using?

McGonagall Posted on 14/01/2012 14:14
Atheists should respect the faith of others

Jon_Mc, I still don't understand how one can 'respect' someone for holding a view which is quite clearly nonsensical. I don't, obviously, mean contrary to my own beliefs but contrary to the rules of logic or the established facts of science.
With regard to 'Nemesis', I did finish reading it. The dominant image in my mind is of the poor Jewish people of Newark being forced to offer up thanksgiving prayers (kaddish) to their all-loving, all-powerful god for kindly taking away their children during the polio epidemic. Pure evil.

StevieT Posted on 14/01/2012 14:28
Atheists should respect the faith of others

As ever, wise words on 'respect for faith' from a sadly missed voice of reason.


Link: Hitchens

McGonagall Posted on 14/01/2012 14:34
Atheists should respect the faith of others

Stevie T, thanks for that. Should be the end of the debate but it won't be!

Jon_Mc Posted on 14/01/2012 14:49
Atheists should respect the faith of others

It's easy really. You just have respect whether one thinks their views are nonsensical or not. After all it's not logical to spend thousands of pounds following a failing football team around the country - something I have been and remain guilty of.

Neither is it logical to call religious people 'all idiots, full stop' when the 'idiots' in question are those who have worked long and hard to gain positions of trust and authority on their own merits - my sister being a prime example, a manager of a major children's charity responsible for it's employees, students and customers as well as developing bids for lottery funding so the good work can continue. Her religion plays a large part in her character and to call it pure evil must surely bring her character into question.

The organisational structure of religion can of course be questioned (in this case The Vatican...boooo, hissss) and she would agree with you on many of the issues you have with it - she has the same issues, as do I. What does she do? Refuse to entertain it and leave? Or continue with the rest of the congregation in trying to make their little corner of catholicism as beneficial as they can to the community, which they do. No one should be and no one is excluded.

As for Nemesis the narrator is very clear on Bucky and his howling at religion...
'I have to say that however much I might sympathise with the amassing of woes that had blighted his life, this is nothing more than stupid hubris, not the hubris of will or desire but the hubris of fantastical, childish religious interpretation.'

Build on the good and condemn, and strive to change the bad.

McGonagall Posted on 14/01/2012 15:49
Atheists should respect the faith of others

Jon_mc "You just have respect whether you think their views are nonsensical or not."
The "you think" there is a bit naughty. I've tried honestly to remove the "me" from this debate. What I believe is irrelevant. What is important is that one respects truth rather than individuals.
Like your sister, my family, basically unquestioning Irish Catholics, were admirable, loving human beings and I had a very happy childhood. They did, however, instil in me a set of beliefs which I found confusing and, ultimately, destructive.
I loved and respected my parents but their simplistic, deistic concept of reality was, quite simply, daft.

Jon_Mc Posted on 14/01/2012 16:01
Atheists should respect the faith of others

Well, yes. It is all down to circumstances. But respect for the individual was part of my upbringing no matter what I thought of my interpretation of their beliefs or opinions. All that mattered was, were they good people or not? I'll not deviate from that philosophy and if I did it would be I who would be missing out on the friendship of good people.

ZippytheHippy Posted on 14/01/2012 17:46
Atheists should respect the faith of others

A flea jumps out of the shag pile has a quick look around and declares to it's pal "I've seen the world and it's not that big"

We are but fleas and in essence know very little and the more we learn the more we realise how little we acctually know.

humility is not a weakness imho, perhaps we should have a little more considering we are just specks of dust in the cosmos.

McGonagall Posted on 14/01/2012 19:15
Atheists should respect the faith of others

Zippy, sure, we're little more than fleas in the "grand design" of things but we have the capacity to think which makes us different from frogs or beetles or Sunderland supporters and this imposes upon us a duty to use this capacity to the full and not resort to myths and fairy tales.

McGonagall Posted on 14/01/2012 21:26
Atheists should respect the faith of others

Buddy, thanks for posting your original message. It's triggered off a stimulating debate which would be unimaginable on, say, COB where all they seem to want to do is slag each other off.
I've said it before but I'll say it again, I think FMTTM is a much more valuable resource for Tees-siders than, say, the Evening Gazette or disasters like MIMA. Cheers.

Bren_MFC Posted on 14/01/2012 23:38
Atheists should respect the faith of others

Because humans have limited intelligence in the scheme of things and cannot begin to comprehend eternity and God and Infinty etc, then they dismiss everything ]because it cannot be scientifically proven, then they try and make out that people of faith are deluded...........we,ll all surely find out one day.

Boromart Posted on 15/01/2012 01:25
Atheists should respect the faith of others

Bren, just because something can be imagined, but not scientifically proven it doesnt make it real, or likely to be real.

number9 Posted on 15/01/2012 10:40
Atheists should respect the faith of others

Now of course the reverse of that is also true.

I also find it intersting when people (generally uninformed) refer to "myths and fairy tales.".

Exactly what is the myth and fairy tales? For example was Jerusalem destroyed by Titus in 70ce? Yes or No, if No when exactly does the Myth begin and fact end?

The man Jesus existed as did king Solomon and even Abraham, Cyrus destroyed Babylon so we can establish "fact" back to 539 BCE. So when does the myth start, just curious like?

VeeCee Posted on 15/01/2012 12:26
Atheists should respect the faith of others

Hard to say...but cemented at the 1st Council of Nicea 325 AD


Dibzzz Posted on 15/01/2012 14:51
Atheists should respect the faith of others

Just to add, I don't agree with 'Atheists should respect the faith of others'.

Depending on how that statement is understood.

I respect peoples beliefs and faith in that religion, but I don't necessarily respect the 'faith', in that I mean the religion.


McGonagall Posted on 15/01/2012 18:15
Atheists should respect the faith of others

Number 9
I'm not disputing the fact that Cyrus existed or that he destroyed Babylon or that the 1st Council of Nicea took place in 325 AD or a million other "facts" that may be at your fingertips thanks to Wikepedia. What I AM trying to say is such stuff is meaningless in the light of current knowledge.
The bloke who invented the penny-farthing bike probably thought that he'd cracked it, that there was no need to look any further.
There is probably somewhere in existence a "Penny-farthing Appreciation Society". They would have, to my mind, as much relevance as any of the world's major religions.

McGonagall Posted on 15/01/2012 18:31
Atheists should respect the faith of others

Good ton, Buddy. Give us another one to chew on.[^]

number9 Posted on 15/01/2012 20:10
Atheists should respect the faith of others

Wikepedia - never use it.

All I asked was "Where does fact end and fiction begin"? If what the Bible recounts historically can be proven true how can it be fiction or a Fairy Tale? In fact without much effort or Wiki I can get back to 1513 BCE & the Jews exodus from (I could take another 200 years off that taking us back to 1713 BCE, you go and find out why from wiki) Egypt which is an historical fact, again all I ask is where does fact end and fiction begin, a simple question really?

It's no good just dismissing a persons belief as fiction when historically it can be proven to be reliable. No one disputes that science has made amazing discoveries, yet as Zippy points out only an arrogant fool would suggest that it has all the answers.

Faith, belief in a superior being etc, right or wrong fills the void that science cannot answer for a far greater majority of the human race than does the vitriol produced by Richard Dawkins. To dismiss it is arrogance in the same way that dismissing science is stupid.

Balance is the key that is sadly missing by many.

101 [:P]

Jon_Mc Posted on 15/01/2012 20:22
Atheists should respect the faith of others

'"Where does fact end and fiction begin"? If what the Bible recounts historically can be proven true how can it be fiction or a Fairy Tale?'

That's the problem. Quite a lot of the bible is supposition and some of it just untrue. Joseph and Mary's road trip to Bethlehem for example didn't happen. Other events that have been thought of as allegory have since been proved to have basis in fact - Jesus healing (or at least caring) in the Pool of Bethesda in Jerusalem being an example. Biblical scholars have done a good job in seperating what from what but there is still work to do. As it stands though the bible remains an excellent resource into historical enquiry of the period.

The rest of what you say is spot on.

Dibzzz Posted on 15/01/2012 22:36
Atheists should respect the faith of others

The Jews for instance.

They reckon god made us in his own form.
So, when you're born a jew, you are born perfect as in gods image.
So if you are born perfect in gods image, why do they lob the end of your dick off? Does god not have a foreskin or something? And if he has no fiveskin, why does he make a baby born with one?

I've never been able to fathom that one out?

Borocelt Posted on 15/01/2012 22:55
Atheists should respect the faith of others

This thread was answered in the second post.

number9 Posted on 16/01/2012 09:31
Atheists should respect the faith of others

"Joseph and Mary's road trip to Bethlehem for example didn't happen"

so what you are saying is that Augustus did not call a census in Judea that insisted that ALL families register in the city of there birth/tribe for taxation reasons?

He did in fact, twice, the first registration took place when Quirinius was governor of Syria. The researches of Zumpt and of Mommsen place beyond doubt that Quirinius was twice governor of Syria.” Many scholars locate the time of Quirinius’ first governorship as somewhere between the years 4 and 1 B.C.E.),

Odd that as it's an historical fact that he did and it is mentioned by Gamaliel & Josephus both real people. Non compliance was not an option.

oooooo Posted on 16/01/2012 09:33
Atheists should respect the faith of others

The census is a historical fact but unless you can show us the entry with 'Joseph and Mary H Christ' written on it then it proves nothing.

JonMc Posted on 16/01/2012 11:13
Atheists should respect the faith of others

The census was ordered, ceratinly but there's no proof that families were sent to their place of birth to do so. It wouldn't haver made economic sense for a start, having vast swathes of the population on the road for months at a time. No reason either for Mary to make the journey even if it was true. Joseph was the head of the family and as such would just have to make the journey himself leaving a nine month pregnant wife behind. Over one hundred miles on a donkey when your lass is about to drop is also hard to accept.
There's also some doubt as to how important the Bethlehem of Judea was at that time - it might have just been a settlement...if Bethlehem was the birth place it would most likely be the one in Galilee rather than the one in Judea hense, Jesus of Galilee or Jesus of Nazareth rather than Jesus of Judea.

TWoS Posted on 16/01/2012 15:16
Atheists should respect the faith of others

This is one of very few subjects on whcih I'm wary of expressing my real view, because in fact I don't respect the views of religionists, I think their beliefs are stupid and that they are stupid for believing them. But obviously if you say that you upset a lot of people, some of whom may become violent, so bland point-dodging it is I'm afraid.

ABCD Posted on 16/01/2012 20:25
Atheists should respect the faith of others

"because in fact I don't respect the views of religionists, I think their beliefs are stupid and that they are stupid for believing them"

So you are a typical bigot then who is at heart also a coward like all bigots?

number9 Posted on 16/01/2012 20:26
Atheists should respect the faith of others

The census was about tax revenue for Rome and of course the Romans were known for there understanding and tollerance?

Boromart Posted on 16/01/2012 21:34
Atheists should respect the faith of others

"All I asked was "Where does fact end and fiction begin"? If what the Bible recounts historically can be proven true how can it be fiction or a Fairy Tale?" - of course there are some historically correct comments in the bible, but that doesn't include the key points of the bible, the myths and fairytales are the god and Jesus bollix. I is not historically proven tat Jesus existed, or that he was anything other than some mouthy carpenter.

Bren_MFC Posted on 16/01/2012 21:39
Atheists should respect the faith of others

The only Cyrus I know, tried to get a collation of New York gangs to form in Central Park against the Cops in The Warriors.......one of the best ever films.

Boromart Posted on 16/01/2012 21:39
Atheists should respect the faith of others

Me: just because something can be imagined, but not scientifically proven it doesnt make it real, or likely to be real

number9 :Now of course the reverse of that is also true.

Number9, what that 'logic' of yours implies is that things that are unbelievably likely are just as possible and likely as things that are believable. This the kind of religious-psuedo logic that fools the feeble mined, but just doesn't stand up to any scrutiny.

Bren_MFC Posted on 16/01/2012 21:44
Atheists should respect the faith of others

Scientists have always tried to disprove religion, but they are missing the point really, religion is a faith, a belief, people crave for proof all the time, nd because it can,t be proved by As I said before limited intelligence, they assume it can,t be.......

Boromart Posted on 16/01/2012 21:51
Atheists should respect the faith of others

do you have faith that ghosts and elves exist also?

Bren_MFC Posted on 16/01/2012 21:53
Atheists should respect the faith of others

No.[:D]....do you???

Timboi Posted on 16/01/2012 21:57
Atheists should respect the faith of others

There is only one sensible option and that's agnosticism.

Rabid aetheists are just as bad as bible-bashers because the truth of the matter it cannot be proven one way or the other.

The best you can say is that you don't actually know but that you personally believe whatever you beleive. There's actually no way to settle the matter beyond a shadow of a doubt

Bren_MFC Posted on 16/01/2012 21:59
Atheists should respect the faith of others

It doesn't,t need settling though, each to their own....

BigCasino Posted on 16/01/2012 22:05
Atheists should respect the faith of others

The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.

Boromart Posted on 16/01/2012 22:06
Atheists should respect the faith of others

so you dno't believe in that belief system ghost), how did you decide to believe in the faith system you DO believe in?

TheSmogMonster Posted on 16/01/2012 22:07
Atheists should respect the faith of others

"Scientists have always tried to disprove religion"

Name one.

I've been avoiding the thread but come on name a serious scientific attempt to 'disprove' religion.

It's the paranoia that some religions feel regarding scientific discovery. Science doesn't try to disprove religion science makes discoveries and some of them run counter to the religious ideology. It's then you make a choice, do I believe the observable or the unobserved.

(The Catholic Church to be fair has been playing the game the longest and has learned to roll with it in many ways)

"There is only one sensible option and that's agnosticism."

Do you believe in God is a yes no question, you're either an atheist or a believer.

Agnosticism isn't what the layman likes to think of it as being. It's a totally different question. 'Can we prove whether or not God exists?' most people on either side of the debate accept we can't or have their doubts. It's essentially an intellectual sidestep.

Lefty Posted on 16/01/2012 22:09
Atheists should respect the faith of others

Science will try to disprove anything that is testable.

And so it should.


Boromart Posted on 16/01/2012 22:11
Atheists should respect the faith of others

but pure agnostiscism alludes that there s an eve chance of a faith system being true and not true, and that is plainly daft.

I prefer the Dawkins comment about De Facto atheism. He claims to be agnostic with a near 100% leaning to atheist, because as a scientist it hasn't been disproven,but nether is their any evidence.

oooooo Posted on 16/01/2012 22:25
Atheists should respect the faith of others

Evolution is a fact, there's not a single shred of evidence of a creator god and religion is the greatest scam of all time.

Glad I could clear that up for you.

People are the only ones who should get respect, not ideas.

Jon_Mc Posted on 16/01/2012 22:49
Atheists should respect the faith of others

Evolution is a fact, there's not a single shred of evidence of a creator god and religion is the greatest scam of all time.
Glad I could clear that up for you.


Shame that you haven't cleared anything up then. Kenneth R. Miller is the very catholic scientist who has provided the expert witness testimony that kept the teaching of intelligent design out of state scools. Not bad for a scam artist.

Glad I could clear that up for you. [:D]

Timboi Posted on 16/01/2012 22:50
Atheists should respect the faith of others

There's actually various types of agnositcism but the general form of agnosticism simply acknowledges that there's no way of knwonig if god does or does not exist.

Personally I'm probably closer to a pantheist than anything - my view is that the universe and nature is so intricate and marvellous that I find it difficult to beleive it just appeared out of nowhere of it's own accord. I don't beleive in god as a being like us; more of a force/energy.

BUT, there are far more questions than answers - scientists can crap-on about big bangs but they still cannot say what was there before or how it occurred. It's all amystery and, I suspect, we're not really even physically capable of grasping what the real deal actually is.

I'm also open to the fact that my beliefs could be wrong and am willing to change my viewpoint as I learn or pontificate more.

Jon_Mc Posted on 16/01/2012 22:55
Atheists should respect the faith of others

'There's actually various types of agnositcism but the general form of agnosticism simply acknowledges that there's no way of knwonig if god does or does not exist.'

Exactly. That's the rub - define god or God. As I said earier - we're still very young and are really just starting out with this science lark.

oooooo Posted on 16/01/2012 23:04
Atheists should respect the faith of others

What has one bloke who says he is a catholic got to do with 'religion'? Does he represent it? Religion is a scam, a trick and a con. One instance of one man not being totally mental isn't enough to redeem it.


Jon_Mc Posted on 16/01/2012 23:13
Atheists should respect the faith of others

Does he represent it?

He represents the scientific side of it in the courtroom, and represents it very well indeed. He also tours the US schools, colleges and universities lecturing on the subject. That's what he has to do with it - mebbys you'd be happier if he didn't bother? It would suit your argument better I suppose.


oooooo Posted on 16/01/2012 23:17
Atheists should respect the faith of others

Good for him. It doesn't get religion off the hook. Plenty of nice people are religious, yet it doesn't make religion any less of a scam.

But you knew exactly what point I was making and you always do, stop pretending you don't.

Jon_Mc Posted on 16/01/2012 23:20
Atheists should respect the faith of others

I know thw point you make. You'd like to have all religious people in a little box so you can feel more comfortable despising it. Unfortunately for you people keep mananging to get out of the box.

Jon_Mc Posted on 16/01/2012 23:23
Atheists should respect the faith of others

And there's nothing to redeem. Just like an honest businessman doesn't have to redeem an economic system that kills hundreds, if not thousands every day.

Edit: Forget the hundreds, it's definitely thousands, if not tens of thousands.

oooooo Posted on 16/01/2012 23:50
Atheists should respect the faith of others

I've clearly pointed squarely at religion, not the people who are religious. There's only one person trying to force an idea and pretend that I am doing otherwise and as usual it is you.

Dibzzz Posted on 16/01/2012 23:51
Atheists should respect the faith of others

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence.

dyke_hammer Posted on 16/01/2012 23:54
Atheists should respect the faith of others

i reckon God XXXXXXed you off out the car park the other day, just as a warning like

you didnt take it too well

there's a message there for you

Jon_Mc Posted on 16/01/2012 23:54
Atheists should respect the faith of others

Religion IS people who are religious. They're the congregation man. The ones who keep it going. That's what a church IS. Not some old men in funny hats but the rank and file. The two are indisinguishable.

Their religion, their faith is part of who they are, part of what they are. Just like football is a part of our lives and part of what makes US what we are. If someone called football a sport of bigots, thugs and general kents we'd rightly be a bit prickly about it.

You can't call religion the same and not have it applied to the followers.

Dibzzz Posted on 17/01/2012 00:05
Atheists should respect the faith of others

Maybe you have a point there Dyke?

That's it, you've converted me, I'm born again!!!!![:D]

dyke_hammer Posted on 17/01/2012 00:07
Atheists should respect the faith of others

not so fast dibzz

you dont get in to such an exclusive and elite club that is

we cant be just letting anyone in, i mean we have to spend eternity with you

what if your an ar5e hole

Dibzzz Posted on 17/01/2012 00:07
Atheists should respect the faith of others

We keep on being told that religion, whatever its imperfections, at least instills morality. On every side, there is conclusive evidence that the contrary is the case and that faith causes people to be more mean, more selfish, and perhaps above all, more stupid.

dyke_hammer Posted on 17/01/2012 00:09
Atheists should respect the faith of others

11th commandment

generalizations are the root of ALL evil

ZippytheHippy Posted on 17/01/2012 08:31
Atheists should respect the faith of others

Don't see R Dawkins out on a cold sat night providing soup and shelter to the homeless very often & lest you forget the "Y" was called the YMCA for a reason.

9 times out of 10 when any disaster strikes it's the "religious fools" that are first on the scene to provide physical help.

odd that for something that has no value according to the wise and great on here, what a sad and bigoted lot you truly are. You remind me of a conversation i over heard before a match a few years ago. A lad was bragging that he and his mate had come across of bloke who had been knocked out and before calling for help they emptied his wallet and stole his watch which one of them was proudly displaying.

I despair for the "morality" of the human race at times. If religion provides guidance in the form of "Do to others as you would have others do to you" then that is a positive thing and only a blind morally vacuous person would dispute it.

Piggy Posted on 17/01/2012 08:57
Atheists should respect the faith of others

I'm an atheist (why isn't that i before e?) and nobody ever really tries to convert me. I occasionally get invited along to churches in Seoul or asked if I believe in Jesus but nobody pushes it beyond the initial enquiry and my polite declination.

Likewise I wouldn't dream of trying to p1ss on someones chips by rubbishing their beliefs. What's the point in that. Like with everything else, if you have confidence in your opinion you don't need to back it up by getting others to agree.

Having said that, I'm quite envious of people with a genuine belief. Wouldn't an afterlife be great? Well, if you'd been good on Earth anyway. I've not really got a problem with an eternity of nothingness, it didn't bother me before I was born so I can't see it being an issue when I'm dead. It's just something else to follow on from life would be so much better. Again, with the proviso that it wouldnt be a constant jabbing with a three-pronged fork with the heating on full.

I'd be a 'ground-hopping' church-goer too, visiting as many different places as I could. Probably even collecting 'Order of Services' instead of programmes.

Rayman Posted on 17/01/2012 10:39
Atheists should respect the faith of others

"9 times out of 10 when any disaster strikes it's the "religious fools" that are first on the scene to provide physical help."

Oh no it isn't!


number9 Posted on 17/01/2012 11:43
Atheists should respect the faith of others

In the spirit of panto

Oh yes it is

StevieT Posted on 17/01/2012 12:17
Atheists should respect the faith of others

Oxfam
The Red Cross
Doctors Without Borders
Amnesty International

Just a few of the many, many non-religious organisations who help without prosletyzing agendas.




Worthwhile reminding yourself of a faith perspective on disasters. [sad]


Link: Oh dear ...

deganya Posted on 17/01/2012 12:25
Atheists should respect the faith of others

Religion is an artificial concept based on hot air and hearsay filtered through a millennium or two of Chinese whispers.

God has as much probability as that of unicorns or fairies existence. Until the evidence to support these possibilities comes along, I'll continue not to let them influence me.

I refuse to give any credence to the idea that a bunch of virgins and pedophiles in stupid hats in the Vatican know more about my supposed mortal soul or how I should behave than I do.

littlejimmy Posted on 17/01/2012 13:02
Atheists should respect the faith of others

The religious groups turning up to disasters ..."God loves you...but allowed this to / made this happen..." [B)]

one-two-many Posted on 17/01/2012 13:14
Atheists should respect the faith of others

People who trip out the old agnostic line are the ones who annoy me the most. As said above, there is as much proof that God exists, as there is of Thor, Unicorns, or elves, yet I very very much doubt that the people who claim to be agnostic are unsure about the existence of elves and unicorns. The only reason they are so about 'God' (and in this country in happens to be the Christian God, because of where you happen to be born) is because as a child you are brought up with the teaching that God is real. With fairies, Thor etc. you make your own mind up basis the evidence available to you. The main reason why I am an atheists, is.

We are on one of a number of planets all revolving around our Sun. Our Sun is one of millions of others stars in our Galaxy, and our galaxy is one of billions of other galaxies in the universe. All this we know, it has been seen my humans. Why would God (the Christian God in this case), just decide to put us on this one, insignificant rock, revolving round one of trillions of other stars? He wouldn't. This is enough for me to make my mind up that God does not exist, we just happened to have evolved because the conditions were right to do so. We share 98.7& of our DNA with a chimpanzee, that also is a fact. This is a enough reason for me to believe in evolution. We are just an intelligent ape. Agonistics are a cop-out, and I would wager have opinions either way on most things except God. Remember, the onus is on the believer, not the non-believer to prove God, or otherwise.

Ignore the author, as I know he is not liked by a lot of people here, but the words basically sum up why I do not believe.



Link: Why don’t you believe in God?

Muttley Posted on 17/01/2012 13:18
Atheists should respect the faith of others

"Remember, the onus is on the believer, not the non-believer to prove God, or otherwise "

No, it isn't. The clue is in the word "believer".

A scientist when he comes up with a theory has to be able to prove it. A believer simply "believes".

one-two-many Posted on 17/01/2012 13:24
Atheists should respect the faith of others

"No, it isn't. The clue is in the word "believer".

Ok then, I believe I can fly. You have to prove that I cannot?


Muttley Posted on 17/01/2012 13:26
Atheists should respect the faith of others

It's simple use of language try not to get confused.

one-two-many Posted on 17/01/2012 13:29
Atheists should respect the faith of others

I know what you are saying, that, by definition, because they are 'believers' there is nothing to prove. My point was, the believer cannot turn to the non-believer and say, "Until you can prove that God isn't real, I will say it is" The onus is the believer to prove the existence of God (if they so wish)

beerfordolphins Posted on 17/01/2012 13:33
Atheists should respect the faith of others

The statement was "Atheists should respect the faiths of others"..

I can't see what is wrong with saying that you respect the individuals RIGHT to believe in whatever they want but you definitely DO NOT have to respect what they actually believe in!

Take religion out of the equation..you can apply the statement to any faith based individual.

For example, if I sincerely believe that grass will kill me if I walk on it willingly - it won't kill me if I am pushed or coerced onto it by the way! - therefore I have never walked on grass, despite the reassurances given by everyone that it is safe. Ultimately you would respect my right to not walk on it...it would be completely up to me to do so...

BUT...you would not respect my viewpoint because you know, for you, that grass is completely safe. Basically, you would think I was talking total and utter rubbish!

..but of course, it would be impossible to PROVE that grass would kill me because I would never walk on it....

AND you would definitely not respect my viewpoint if I stated that, in order to save people, I would beat them unconscious at the entrance to Albert Park...or get my non-grass walking converts to blow themselves up in the Cleveland Centre because I had told them that when they died they would go to concrete afterlife!!..

SEE...no religious references at all! ;-)

one-two-many Posted on 17/01/2012 13:35
Atheists should respect the faith of others

Spot on, Mart.

oooooo Posted on 17/01/2012 13:38
Atheists should respect the faith of others

"Don't see R Dawkins out on a cold sat night providing soup and shelter to the homeless very often"

You don't hear him telling africans that condoms help spread AIDS too, do you?

And as for the figure above that 90% of first responders to disasters are religious groups, what a complete lie. This is what you get from religion all the time, it's an idea that is based on lies.

StevieT Posted on 17/01/2012 13:49
Atheists should respect the faith of others

Always amazes me when the religious talk of helping others. Teacher and apple springs to mind. 'Ooh ... don't mind me, I'm busy on an errand for god.'


oooooo Posted on 17/01/2012 13:51
Atheists should respect the faith of others

I see they are just harmless believers? Why are they given seats in the house of lords? Why are the given tax breaks? Why do they have billions of pounds of assets that they invest in shopping centres? Why do they even have opinions on things like sex or even think people want to hear them?

Harmless!

number9 Posted on 17/01/2012 15:30
Atheists should respect the faith of others

So the Sally Army do not help people and as for Oxfam & The Red Cross they both sprang from the christian churches.

No one has the sole right to claim the high grond but to say cart blanche that "people of faith" do not help others is daft in the same way that the opposite us true.

To answer the original point as a person who believes in God i niether need or require anyone's "respect". I am more than comfortable with my faith and have no need to seek validation from anyone thanks very much.

Respect me or not, don't give a rats.[^]

JonMc Posted on 17/01/2012 15:55
Atheists should respect the faith of others

Africa and HIV - I've said this before and I'll say it again, The Vatican needs to soften it's official approach on condoms and HIV. It has done already on the subject of disease but needs to go further and needs to be sid clearer. On the other boot the secular world needs to recognise that preaching fidelity is a good weapon to have against the spread of HIV. They are right - if people didn't shag about so much things would be much better.
But if you really want to stop the spread of HIV in Africa then campaign to make the reusable hypodermic syringe a thing of the past. Hospital wards in the most acutely affected countries use the same hypo for patient after patient and without sterilization. Why? Because the powers that be in those countries demand them and you know capitalism...where there's demand...
The self destructing hypo would help make HIV thing of the past - why not shout about that?

House of Lords - If you want to reform the place then go for it but don't try to con folk that less than 5% of the overall vote is going to help put an end to evil when it's common place to get a seat there for just a nice party donation. At least the Lords Covenant vote with their conscience and not their wallet.

Tax and supermarkets? Needs to be examined - put the churches on the same footing as charitable organizations, that's what they are.

Opinions on sex? Well if there's only religion saying the things I agree with then why shouldn't I listen to them?
I donate to a religious based organisation in Thailand that helps women out of the prostitution racket that everyone over here seems to encourage so readily. Women and girls are economically forced into the system and the west seems to want to encourage this slavery. The group I donate to offers skill training with no strings attached and they then work in other industries within tourism. Believe it or not I tried to find a non religious organization doing the same (or even similar) thing but guess what - there doesn't seem to be any.

oooooo Posted on 17/01/2012 16:16
Atheists should respect the faith of others

On HIV, I was referring quite specifically to the church lying about condoms. Other health measures would be helpful in slowing the spread but that only proves it is a medical matter and not one religion should be interfering with.

House of Lords, I'm not suggesting the small number of bishops are causing all the ills of the world, just that they shouldn't be there interfering in government.

Regarding opinions on sex, again I say they are not qualified to interfere. With the catholic church you've got a celibate patriarchal organisation lecturing people on sex. They know nothing about it.

I'm perfectly capable of deciding for myself to practise safe sex and not shag around without some organisation with an unhealthy obsession with the subject condemning me to eternal hell if I don't step in line.


Rayman Posted on 17/01/2012 16:16
Atheists should respect the faith of others

"So the Sally Army do not help people and as for Oxfam & The Red Cross they both sprang from the christian churches. No one has the sole right to claim the high grond but to say cart blanche that "people of faith" do not help others is daft in the same way that the opposite us true"

No one is denying that the Red Crescent, Red Cross, and whatever they call the Jewish one, help out at times. But nine times out of ten is a bit wide of the mark.

Myself, I'm not sure about the existence of God, but if there is one then I agree with Zappa. God doesn't manifest himself as blokes with suits who want all your money, otherwise you won't go to heaven. Neither does he manifest himself as jewelry encrusted con artists who live in palaces. Nor nutjobs who live in caves. If you want to talk to God then go direct.

ZippytheHippy Posted on 17/01/2012 16:20
Atheists should respect the faith of others

Now let me get this right, the Bible says no sex before marraige and remain faithfull to you're partner right?

If we all practiced that then there would be no HIV or any other form of STD. Funny how no one ever mentions that like?

one-two-many Posted on 17/01/2012 16:22
Atheists should respect the faith of others

"Now let me get this right, the Bible says no sex before marraige and remain faithfull to you're partner right"

Correct. The Bible also ackowledges, in the forst chapter if I am correct, that 'man' will sin. So if God knows that 'man' is going to sin, and therfore sleep around, why not allow condoms? Also, why did God invent HIV in the first place? weird.

JonMc Posted on 17/01/2012 16:23
Atheists should respect the faith of others

You always refer specifically to the church but forget about the point they make as well as other initiatives that could help much. much more.

Neither should seatsin power for cash - adds up to much more than 5%. You don't bang on about that because it's not religion.

They are qualified to point out the economic sexual slavery in Thailand. Why shouldn't they - celibate or not?

Mebbys you are but folk in this country don't seem to get the message no matter how many STD adverts we throw at them.

The eternal damnation thing needs to stop, I agree. And it is stopping but just not as quick as it should.

number9 Posted on 17/01/2012 16:24
Atheists should respect the faith of others

"Myself, I'm not sure about the existence of God, but if there is one then I agree with Zappa. God doesn't manifest himself as blokes with suits who want all your money, otherwise you won't go to heaven. Neither does he manifest himself as jewelry encrusted con artists who live in palaces. Nor nutjobs who live in caves."

Can't argue with that, in fact i agree with it.

"The Bible also ackowledges, in the forst chapter if I am correct, that 'man' will sin. So if God knows that 'man' is going to sin, and therfore sleep around, why not allow condoms? Also, why did God invent HIV in the first place? weird."

You are not correct.

one-two-many Posted on 17/01/2012 16:28
Atheists should respect the faith of others

Well if God is omnipotent, then surely it is correct?

number9 Posted on 17/01/2012 16:33
Atheists should respect the faith of others

omnipotent - refers to power (in my dictionary anyway) and if you knew anything about the "Bible" you would know that it says God created man with free will. If he wanted "robots" we'd all be geordies.

My old man did not need to be able to see into the future to know that if i ran out into the road the likelyhood was a lot of pain for me.

one-two-many Posted on 17/01/2012 16:37
Atheists should respect the faith of others

Correct. But the Bible does say that God is omnipotent, Jeremiah I believe, then surely, by defintion, he can do whatever he likes?

"you would know that it says God created man with free will."

And in his own image......

Omnipotent

"Having unlimited or universal power, authority, or force; all-powerful. See Usage Note at infinite.
n.
1. One having unlimited power or authority"

oooooo Posted on 17/01/2012 16:40
Atheists should respect the faith of others

Jon, I'm not able to have all the arguments you want to have, maybe someone else can indulge you! [:D]

I don't always go on about religion exclusively compared to everything else but we're actually talking about religion. I don't want to go off-topic but an example is that I think hereditary peers should not be involved too but I'm giving the church representatives in the Lords as an example of religious interference in things that they shouldn't be interfering with. Agreeing with the point I am making on that does not invalidate any of your other opinions or beliefs.

And whether abstinence and self-control are effective or not, isn't the point. The point is that the church are getting involved purely because it is sex and they see it as dirty. They don't give opinions on smoking or over-eating or reckless driving or anything else that causes needless damage. Again the point is interference in something that isn't up to them.

number9 Posted on 17/01/2012 16:55
Atheists should respect the faith of others

one-two-many

I fail to see what you are on about. The bible does not say that God created man to sin, so what's you're point, whether God is omnipotent or not has nothing to do with man haveing free will or perhaps you are living up to the user name? [smi]

and with that I'm off as this thread has had more time than it deserves by about 167 posts.

Jon_Mc Posted on 17/01/2012 17:00
Atheists should respect the faith of others

The point is that the church are getting involved purely because it is sex and they see it as dirty.

Don't be silly. They're a conservative organisation and like most conservatives they see sex ideally within the institution of marriage - something I disagree with but I do agree that letting the small head be in charge of the big head gets you into trouble more often than not. Something I've learned to my cost once or twice. [:D]

It's just an alternative solution to a problm and agree with it or not, it's a valid argument and a point worth raising.

one-two-many Posted on 17/01/2012 17:00
Atheists should respect the faith of others

"The bible does not say that God created man to sin"

I aren't saying he did. My point was that in Genesis, Adam and Eve did sin. I appreciate this isn't meant to be taken literally, but more as a metaphore that man has free will, and will therefore be open to sinful acts. If God is omnipotent, as the Bible says he is, then why do all that in first place and just ensure Adam didni't sin. Or even, not make aids happen, then we wouldn't be having this debate adbout johnnies.

king_hellfire Posted on 17/01/2012 17:53
Atheists should respect the faith of others

'But if you really want to stop the spread of HIV in Africa then campaign to make the reusable hypodermic syringe a thing of the past. Hospital wards in the most acutely affected countries use the same hypo for patient after patient and without sterilization. Why? Because the powers that be in those countries demand them and you know capitalism...where there's demand...
The self destructing hypo would help make HIV thing of the past - why not shout about that?'


Have you got a link to a recent report regarding your claim about reusable hypodermic syringes because this 2002 report suggests that sorting out the reusable syringe situation wouldn't even come close to stopping the spread of HIV in africa.


Excerpts from the link...



'But many AIDS researchers familiar with Gisselquist's work believe he is off base and that the debate is a distraction from the difficult work of preventing sexual transmission HIV.
"He's overselling this to get people's attention drawn to this issue," said Neff Walker, a UNAIDS epidemiologist.
"It's important not to leap to the conclusion that our understanding of this epidemic is all wrong," said Nancy Padian, a UCSF researcher who divides her time between San Francisco and field work in Zimbabwe.
Padian said there may be some transmission by needle reuse but she has not encountered it. Virtually every case she has followed among African women has been traced to sexual contact.'


'Dr. Willi McFarland, who tracks the epidemic in San Francisco for the city Health Department, is also skeptical of the needle hypothesis. He points out that, if dirty needles were transmitting virus in medical settings, HIV would be turning up in people of all ages in Africa. Instead, the epidemic is highly concentrated among young women and men in the prime of their sexual lives.

McFarland also noted that, because hepatitis B is transmitted by needle reuse far more readily than HIV, there would be a "raging" hepatitis epidemic in Africa, dwarfing its AIDS problem.

"The logic doesn't quite add up," he said.'







Link: Reusable needles spread AIDS?

oooooo Posted on 17/01/2012 17:55
Atheists should respect the faith of others

Fair enough Jon

Maybe dirty is not the word but they've banned it by their own clergy. You could say it is because they can't marry but they say that is a beautiful institution!

Not sure I can get that big head little head imagery out of mine so I'll leave it at that. [:D]


king_hellfire Posted on 17/01/2012 18:03
Atheists should respect the faith of others

Here's a link concerning the man making the reusable needle/spread of AIDS link.


A few excerpts from the link...



'Gisselquist has not done research of his own and selectively reviews past research to support his views.'


'Why is his work on AIDS in Africa published mostly in this one journal? Were his papers peer reviewed? When I asked David Gisselquist whether the International Journal of STD and AIDS peer reviewed his papers his response was a simple smile.'



'and the World Health Organization (WHO) launched a multinational investigation into his claims. The WHO study was led by George Schmid and the findings were published in The Lancet. The results flat out refuted Gisselquist, finding “no compelling evidence that unsafe injections are a predominant mode of HIV-1 transmissions in sub-Saharan Africa”.'


'David Gisselquist refuses to accept that sexual transmission is the source of Africa’s AIDS crisis. He maintains that he is right while the mountain of scientific evidence is wrong.'





Link: David Gisselquist

king_hellfire Posted on 17/01/2012 18:16
Atheists should respect the faith of others

Sod it, I'll add this link too because I like the following paragraph...


'The review group also criticized the Gisselquist team's use of self-reported sexual behavior data. According to WHO/UNAIDS, people often underreport their sexual activity. It was noted, for example, that in a study of 980 women, 23 HIV-positive women reported never having had sex--but so did 15 pregnant women.' [:D]




Where did you get your information from johnMc? Because it seems tha the WHO refuted the claims 9 years ago.


Link: WHO reaffirms: Unsafe sex, not dirty needles.

Boromart Posted on 17/01/2012 18:37
Atheists should respect the faith of others

"Don't see R Dawkins out on a cold sat night providing soup and shelter to the homeless very often & lest you forget the "Y" was called the YMCA for a reason."

Are you really claiming that Atheists dont do charity or even dont do charity as much as theists? what a load of sh7te! Your just making really stupid things up now with absolutely no evidence to back it up.... although that shouldn't surprise me!

Boromart Posted on 17/01/2012 18:48
Atheists should respect the faith of others

"to say cart blanche that "people of faith" do not help others is daft in the same way that the opposite us true."
Number9, I agree with your comment on its own....however the post earlier was the one that stated that 90% of people at a disaster are religious and you don't see Dawkins helping the homeless. So I think you got your post the wrong way around. It should have been.

"to say cart blanche that Atheists do not help others is daft in the same way that the opposite us true."

Only you can explain why you decided to defend the Theists rather than the Atheists with that comment [;)]

Rayman Posted on 17/01/2012 18:50
Atheists should respect the faith of others

I don't believe in Richard Dawkins either.

Boromart Posted on 17/01/2012 18:52
Atheists should respect the faith of others

"Africa and HIV - I've said this before and I'll say it again, The Vatican needs to soften it's official approach on condoms and HIV. It has done already on the subject of disease but needs to go further and needs to be sid clearer. On the other boot the secular world needs to recognise that preaching fidelity is a good weapon to have against the spread of HIV. They are right - if people didn't shag about so much things would be much better.
But if you really want to stop the spread of HIV in Africa then campaign to make the reusable hypodermic syringe a thing of the past. "

why can't you simply admit that the vatican has blood on its hands, they should be done for manslaughter to be honest. Do you think that the people who preached this bollix should go to 'hell'? As far as syringes go, no one is arguing about that, that isn't the point, its a non-issue to the question of the effect of religion on HIV in Africa.

We are animals we are made to procraete, abstinence isn't the answer, condoms work, full stop.

Jon_Mc Posted on 17/01/2012 19:00
Atheists should respect the faith of others

2011

In 1998 the San Francisco Chronicle published an article by Reynolds Holding and William Carlsen entitled ‘DEADLY NEEDLES Fast Track to Global Disaster’. The article describes how children in Nairobi were combing through piles of rubbish in search of used hypodermic syringes to sell to private clinics in Kenya and India.

The authors reported news of an internal World Health Organization study which had revealed that every year as many as 1.8 million people were being infected by contaminated syringes, mostly children, and that one would die every 20 seconds.

David Gisselquist an author researching AIDS in Africa at the time the 2003 Sunday Times article was published agreed with the authors. He confirmed that his research had shown that the primary cause for AIDS in Africa was indeed the dirty needles being used during medical treatments. He felt strongly that dirty needles should be blamed for the AIDS epidemic and not sex.

It was around this time that the WHO suddenly retracted their previous statements, saying that Gisselquist was wrong and stating that unprotected sexual activities was the number one reason for the AIDS infections. This sudden change was probably due to the fact that President George Bush had just announced that he was sending $15 billion to help the tragedy in Africa....It was in the governments best interest to have the emphasis remain on unprotected sex as being the primary cause for HIV/AIDS. If vaccines were seen to be the cause of Africa’s AIDS crisis then this would mean that the vaccines being sent to help third world countries were actually causing the death and suffering of millions of people.

What makes things even worse is that in the same year that this paper was published the U.S.A. Government decided to protect their interests even further by changing the adoption laws. They did this to put a halt on infected children being brought into the USA.


Link: 2011 Why did the WHO change it's mind.

Jon_Mc Posted on 17/01/2012 19:04
Atheists should respect the faith of others

Mebbys it was about the money.



But an earlier internal WHO study had revealed an even more alarming figure: Every year as many as 1.8 million people infected by contaminated syringes, mostly children, would die -- about one every 20 seconds.

Medical researchers had warned for decades that hypodermic needles could be deadly. But the WHO reports made it painfully clear that world health officials had an international medical crisis on their hands -- and urgent action was needed.

``We want to avoid creating a panic,'' said WHO's Michel Zaffran, who helped prepare the still-unreleased infection numbers. ``But maybe there is a need to create that panic to solve this problem.''

This is a story, based on hundreds of interviews and thousands of documents, about a vast, virtually invisible epidemic, a crisis that could have been defused more than a decade ago.

It is about soaring disease rates in Egypt and plunging life expectancies in Brazil; children combing garbage dumps for syringes to sell in Kenya and India; and ignorance, poverty and corruption driving medical workers in Cambodia and Russia to reuse needles dozens -- sometimes hundreds -- of times.

It is about a promising generation of nonreusable syringes that got lost in a multibillion-dollar corporate battle over the global syringe market.

It is about how the world's leading syringe manufacturers first ignored the problem, then either delayed the new technology or did little to get it into the hands of health workers.

And it is about how top world health officials -- including several with de Quadros in Conference Room A -- downplayed the mounting death toll for years, fearing that publicizing it would jeopardize their immunization programs.





Link: 1998

Jon_Mc Posted on 17/01/2012 19:18
Atheists should respect the faith of others

Boromart:

The vatican does indeed have blood on it's hands and in today's other daily FMTTM religious thread I've called for a clean sweep of the place.

We medicalise everything now - the medical profession has become the new church and we rely on it more and more to give us the answers that we're too lazy to find ourselves - or mebbys we just find the answers too inconvenient to put into practice. One only gets true change through cultural change.

Abstinance is ONE answer and just relying on condoms does not work. If condoms are the ONLY answer and we're running advertisement campaigns in this country every year telling people to use protection against disease then...


Link: ...why are STDs on the rise?

jimstewart Posted on 17/01/2012 20:02
Atheists should respect the faith of others

Didn't this place used to be about the Boro and football ? What a bunch of tedious XXXXXXs. Your gonna find out when you die. End of chat.

oooooo Posted on 17/01/2012 20:05
Atheists should respect the faith of others

I can't say too many on here are preoccupied with what happens when you die. I'm more bothered about how organised religions affect what it is like while I live.

End of message.

king_hellfire Posted on 17/01/2012 20:09
Atheists should respect the faith of others

'mebbys it was about the money'




And mebbys it wasn't.

You're clutching at straws now JohnMc. You brought up the reusable needle claim to try and downplay the churches message about how wearing condoms increases the risk of AIDS...It proved to be a false claim, so what else are you gonna claim to try and make out that the church is the lesser of two evils compared to capitalism?

Also, why do you feel the need to stick up for religion at the drop of a hat on every occasion?
You say you're atheist but you can't outright admit that religion can be harmful. Any admission you make that religion isn't perfect you always follow it up with how something else is worse, you deviate from the main topic and go off on tangents about capitalism and 'the powers that be' etc. etc.

You come across as a religious apologist and I don't understand why that would be the case. Do you not think that religious folk can stand up for themselves?







Regarding the 'mebbys it's about the money' comment...



'Congress earmarked as much as $75 million of its Global AIDS Initiative toward "safe and appropriate" injections and the World Health Organization (WHO) launched a multinational investigation into his claims.'


That's $75 million of aid money that would have been wasted.





'Abstinance is ONE answer and just relying on condoms does not work. If condoms are the ONLY answer and we're running advertisement campaigns in this country every year telling people to use protection against disease then...Why are STDs on the rise?'



Because there are people in this country that are irresponsible and don't wear condoms, just as there will always be people in Africa that won't wear them. AIDS isnt going to be eradicated from africa but the death rates can be lowered if they're taught about how important it is to wear one...the pope telling them that wearing them is dangerous will do nothing whatsoever to lower the death rates caused by AIDS.

I agree that abstinence is one answer, however, i highly doubt that Christians only preach about abstinence whilst they're over there.




'The vatican does indeed have blood on it's hands and in today's other daily FMTTM religious thread I've called for a clean sweep of the place.'


Yes, immediately followed by...



'Of course that wind should apply to every other organisation and profession that moved abusers on quietly in the past so that their organisations could be protected at the expense of the victims who had to shoulder the cost for the rest of their lives.'






Yet, another example of "yeah, religion isn't great but..."

No one would disagree with the last statement but the topic was about religion not other organisations.

Boromart Posted on 17/01/2012 20:22
Atheists should respect the faith of others

I think Alan Partridge sums up why there clearly isnt a godd:

"By the way, I'm not knocking God. He's a powerful man. Think about the recent earthquakes and Tsunamis - he really does knock Al-Quaeda for six when it comes to killing the most number of people" [:D]

king_hellfire Posted on 17/01/2012 20:26
Atheists should respect the faith of others

[:D]


I don't remember that one, which programme was it on?

Boromart Posted on 17/01/2012 20:40
Atheists should respect the faith of others

It's from his 'autobiography' [^]

king_hellfire Posted on 17/01/2012 20:43
Atheists should respect the faith of others

Cheers mate. [^]

I'll have to get it.

Boromart Posted on 17/01/2012 20:58
Atheists should respect the faith of others

you have to read it in APs voice in your head [^]

gravyboat Posted on 17/01/2012 21:07
Atheists should respect the faith of others

When was the last time somebody had a double century when not contributing after the OP?

Jon_Mc Posted on 17/01/2012 21:29
Atheists should respect the faith of others

I don't stick up for religion at the drop of a hat and neither on every occasion. There are things that I condemn organised reliigon for but there is also a balanced view, which I try to give. You have given examples of me doing both. On another thread today I called for total transparency in the vatican "Though the heavens fall", I said.

Now there's an example, just one among quite a few. can you give me one where you give religion any credit?

Why do I defend religion at all? Because I like a good bogeyman. [:D]

tyronepositive Posted on 17/01/2012 23:00
Atheists should respect the faith of others

If there was no God there wouldnt be any atheists.

For me having a faith eases the worries

Boromart Posted on 17/01/2012 23:17
Atheists should respect the faith of others

"If there was no God there wouldnt be any atheists."
????????????????

Dibzzz Posted on 17/01/2012 23:32
Atheists should respect the faith of others

If there were no gods we wouldn't have brain-washed loons blowing people up.

dyke_hammer Posted on 17/01/2012 23:40
Atheists should respect the faith of others

yes we would, they'd just be manipulated by other means

the religious "debates" on here are beyond childish for the most part and utterly and entirely tedious

Dibzzz Posted on 18/01/2012 00:54
Atheists should respect the faith of others

Well of course people blow other people up without a religious belief.

But on the other hand they do, and in great numbers across the globe, much easier to manipulate a person with a belief than a person who has no belief. This is when religion gets very dangerous.

oooooo Posted on 18/01/2012 01:23
Atheists should respect the faith of others

"When was the last time somebody had a double century when not contributing after the OP?"

Pretty sure it's never happened. I'll research it.

oooooo Posted on 18/01/2012 01:23
Atheists should respect the faith of others

Nope, Gravyboat, it's never happened!

Dibzzz Posted on 19/01/2012 16:10
Atheists should respect the faith of others

Eeeeeeee, over 200, eeeeeeeeee.