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JimmyFloydPiggybank Posted on 06/12/2011 19:23
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

Only been going since the 80s,
Ranked thebest/worsy managers, making
the worst in my life time, Gareth Southgate and the best by a mile Bruce Rioch

1. Bruce Rioch
2. Terry Venables
3. Steve Mac
4. Bryan Robson
5. Tony Mowbray
5. Lennie Lawrence
6. Colin Todd-he did but John Hendrie, Mustoe did he not?
7. Gordon Strachan
8. Gareth Southgate

fridaynighttipple Posted on 06/12/2011 19:25
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

Bobby Murdoch

Jonny_Ingbar Posted on 06/12/2011 19:25
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

Really feel as though I shouldn't reply, but I cant help it.

On what basis was GS1 worse than GS2, given the former kept us in the PL for two seasons?

JimmyFloydPiggybank Posted on 06/12/2011 19:30
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

Southgates ins.

Jason Euell
Gary O Neil
Alfonso
Lee

Only good signing was the full back from Charlton, Young

Hasselbaink went to Charlton, and we ending up paying a fee for Euell.

Never enjoyed many games under him, he was clueless.....oh and a world class centre half paying millions for St Ledger

Strachan signings are coming good and getting £££ for Brad Jones

1finny Posted on 06/12/2011 19:32
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

Terry Venables? Ffs

JimmyFloydPiggybank Posted on 06/12/2011 19:33
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

Also the season we stayed up was essentially the spine of Steve Macs team.

Next season he vandalised the team, the cash argument does not wash when 5m was wasted on Gary Oneil when Morrison was better

Nuge_MSS Posted on 06/12/2011 19:34
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

Southgate sent us down. Strachan almost relegated us again. [xx(]

The_Lizards_Jumpers Posted on 06/12/2011 19:34
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

"Southgates ins.

Jason Euell
Gary O Neil
Alfonso
Lee

Only good signing was the full back from Charlton, Young"

Didn't he sign a young lad from Holland, Marvin something or other. I wonder what happened to him???

Oh and Alves' name was Afonso, NOT Alfonso...

HotshotMFC Posted on 06/12/2011 19:35
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

I like these Christmas threads.[:P]

JimmyFloydPiggybank Posted on 06/12/2011 19:36
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

Venables, we were doomed, Gibson begged him to take the job after Steve Mac, a world class manager.

Ince, Gazze, Phil Neville,Lineker all say he is the best ever to have managed them.

Kept us up think we brought in Windass a couple of years he would have built a team

Unbelievable_jeff Posted on 06/12/2011 19:36
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

How can anyone have southgate under strachan. I think southgate will make a great manager one day.

grantus Posted on 06/12/2011 19:36
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

Robson took us down while spending shedloads and comes 4th, Southgate took us down while slashing the wage bill and comes last. I would say your judgement is clouded by a dislike for Southgate.

Strachan not last? Crazy.

Venables?? WTF? He wasn't even manager.

The_Lizards_Jumpers Posted on 06/12/2011 19:36
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

Everything Grantus says is correct....

JimmyFloydPiggybank Posted on 06/12/2011 19:37
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

Marvin for 3million, good in the championship, at the highest level the premier league he failed and never got a look in

Jonny_Ingbar Posted on 06/12/2011 19:38
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

Grantus, the voice of reason [^]

JimmyFloydPiggybank Posted on 06/12/2011 19:40
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

Southgate a good manager one day, I personally think he is finished, I dont think a league club will give him a go unless Crawley want a change.

A yes man in the England Sunday, the best centre half to ever play for Boro, but as a manager he is a failure

JimmyFloydPiggybank Posted on 06/12/2011 19:42
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

1finny what was wrong with Venables? We were going down until he took over.

JimmyFloydPiggybank Posted on 06/12/2011 19:47
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

grantus rank your best to worst managers since following the Boro.

Robson took us down by not putting a team out against Blackburn, he put the team onthe map played the best football I can ever recall and took us up at the first attempt along with a 2nd league cup final on the trot.

Signed the best ever keeper we ever had, and got a lot of cash for Barmby, Merson, Juno, Ziege, Andy Campbell etc

Adi_Dem Posted on 06/12/2011 19:49
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

Well grantus, as a bloke and player I have nothing but respect for Southgate. As a manager, he is right down there with the worst. People hide behind the myth that he drastically cut the wage bill. He didn't but even if he had it actually makes his decisions worse, not better. Utterly dreadful manager and rightly towards the bottom of any list.

Stanley_Downing Posted on 06/12/2011 19:51
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

I think souhgate will become U-21 manager and then depending how he does there will go back into flub management. I don't think the u-21 is that hard a job for him to do too badly.

grantus Posted on 06/12/2011 19:53
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

1. McClaren (and I was no fan of his)
2. Rioch
3. Robson
4. Mowbray (think he'll move up a notch or two)
5. Southgate
6. Lawrence
7. Todd
8. Strachan

Adi - Southgate did slash the wage bill - fact.

since1970 Posted on 06/12/2011 19:54
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

To his credit, Murdoch said the club were right to sack him, would you have got that kind of honesty from Southgate? - both dreadful managers IMHO - I suspect not.

Although slightly before my Ayresome attending days Raich Carter was, apparantly, no Alex Ferguson!

viv_andersons_nana Posted on 06/12/2011 19:58
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

Worst? Southgate.

Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 06/12/2011 20:07
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

Southgate by a country mile since I started watching. We still haven't recovered. Raich Carter was poor, as was Strachan, whilst Bobby Murdoch didn't get the backing.

'Didn't he sign a young lad from Holland, Marvin something or other. I wonder what happened to him???'

He's an average player in the Championship. We still wouldn't recoup what we paid for him, despite his early season flourish.


Tom_Fun Posted on 06/12/2011 20:12
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

"will go back into flub management"

Best place for him.

viv_andersons_nana Posted on 06/12/2011 20:13
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

[:D]

JimmyFloydPiggybank Posted on 06/12/2011 20:16
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

U21 manager, he would be a nighmare, he could not handle Cattermole or James Morrison, he were 21 stars at the time. Would rather have Graeme Rix than Southgate under the 21s

benga69 Posted on 06/12/2011 20:19
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

Gordon Strachan destroyed our club, how can anyone mention any other manager.[:(!][:(!][:(!][:(!][:(!][^][^][:(!][:(!][:(!][:(!][:(!][:(!][:(!][:(!][:(!][:(!][:(!][:(!][:(!][cr][cr][cr][cr][cr][cr][cr][cr][cr][cr][cr][cr]

JimmyFloydPiggybank Posted on 06/12/2011 20:26
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

Grantus looked at your rankings and you have both Robson and Mowbray ahead of Southgate,

You said, "Robson took us down while spending shedloads and comes 4th". By your own admission you rate both Robson ahead of Southgate.

Southgate as a player and a captain was great, his fisting the air etc, etc, but was was a disaster as a manager. Lee Dong Gook, was never a footballer, I don't think he ever get to yellow belt in karate or make a break of 3 in a game of snooker, he was not even a a sports man.

Mido, millions wasted on that guy.

A nice guy out of his depth.

Stachans signings v Income, pips him GS1 ahead of GS2 only just though

PRIORYMAN Posted on 06/12/2011 20:33
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

Bobby Murdoch [V]

grantus Posted on 06/12/2011 20:48
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

Aye, Robson gave us more than Southgate, but I think you've got them too far apart. Robson had an open cheque book (big advantage at the time) and a huge international reputation.

tophat Posted on 06/12/2011 20:58
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

You guys have short memories.

For me the best is Rioch for keeping the Boro alive and straight promotions back to the top, followed by McClaren for the cup and finals and then Jackie Charlton for the record 2nd Div championshp and some glorious hours at the top of the 1 division during my childhood (especially since all my glory hunter mates supported Liverpool at the time).

Worst...Malcolm Allison or Gordon Strachan, both totally useless despite the hype.

red_shamrock Posted on 06/12/2011 21:00
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

Rioch... The Miracle man
McClaren won a cup
Charlton Invincible season
Robson It was wonderland
Neal good football
Lawrence Promotion
Todd
Anderson Nearly man
Mowbray won nowt yet
Southgate unlucky
Bobby Murdock very unlucky
Strachan

Caretakers Shepherson and Big Jack



sheriff_john_bunnell Posted on 06/12/2011 21:04
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

The reason southgate is was and will always be the worst ever Boro manager is he is the only manager in history who has sold an entire midfield and not bothered to replace them.

Free_Subbuteo_171 Posted on 06/12/2011 21:07
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

We were very stable under McClaren.

Nero Posted on 06/12/2011 21:08
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

In my time Southgate is easily the worst manager. Despite Strachan making a mess of his time his signings have actually been good overall.

The argument that Southgate kept us up for two seasons doesn't add up either. Viduka and Yakubu kept us up and Southgate was lucky to have them. When it came to replacing them, he made a complete mess of it.

He let the likes of Steve Round go and didn't replace a quality keeper in Schwarzer. His appointment remains the biggest mistake by Gibson.

sheriff_john_bunnell Posted on 06/12/2011 21:11
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

After he let Steve round go we won a couple of games and a load on here put it down to him getting rid of mcClarens old cup winning backroom team. Not viduka coming back from injury.

JimmyFloydPiggybank Posted on 06/12/2011 21:11
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

Think most people will agree by a country mile Rioch was the best, with a toss up between Gordon Strachan and Gareth Southgate for the bottom two, depending on when you started to go to the same.

Most people, and people who have been going to the game longer than me are in the majority saying Southgate

BigCasino Posted on 06/12/2011 21:21
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

I think Strachan would say Strachan TBH

Second I would probably have Carter.

Adi_Dem Posted on 06/12/2011 21:37
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

Steve McClaren is the best. I don't see any argument against that.

Grantus - you putting fact at the end doesn't make it so. The 'facts' are a matter of public record. Yes, he reduced the wage budget, marginally, but under any definition it wasn't 'slashed'.

As I said, if he did slash it, it makes him all the more culpable. In the knowledge that he had a limited budget, he dropped a record fee on one position, he sold local lads on lower wages and replaced them with an incredibly expensive Frenchman, he blew a significant chunk of the budget on someone he described as a 'project'.

Add to that the naive tactics, the lack of any plan or cohesion, a relegation and the fact that he hasn't had a sniff of a real job since and I'd say it's a pretty convincing case against him.

bryan_munich Posted on 06/12/2011 21:39
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

In my time:

Rioch
McLaren
Charlton
Neal
(Mogga...)
=Lawrence, Maddren
Robson
Todd
Murdoch
Strachan
Southgate

Libbins Posted on 06/12/2011 22:36
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

Strachan at least made good perminant signings. Southgate, largely did not. Shocking excuse for a manager. Spineless and inept team performances that progressively got worse the more players he brought in.

People have short memories about how bad it was and are blinded by the fact that he was a good bloke and one of our best ever players. Likewise with Strachan and the fact he could be a cheeky little XXXXXX in the wake of a bad result.

Pogatetz_Ate_My_Hamster_ Posted on 06/12/2011 22:37
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

Southgate by a mile

Atleast Strachan can say he bought reasonably well

HolgateCorner Posted on 06/12/2011 22:48
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

Todd - he did nothing.
Murdoch took over at a bad time and previously did a good job with the youth team so he escapes intact.
Southgate I just can't decide, he had the right idea but buys like Alves and Digard just did not come off for him.
Strachan left a mess but it wasn't for lack of trying and he gave the club the shake it needed, not even Lamb survived in the end...

ProudToComeFromTeesside Posted on 06/12/2011 22:53
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

Even our best managers had their failings. In my time:

1. McClaren - does most successful = best? I don't know but what other criteria is there?

2. Charlton - brilliant first two seasons but lack of judgement as to when to spend the money prevented him from building on his initial success.

3. Rioch - his losing the dressing room in 1990 and being unable to keep us up prevent him from getting the No 1 slot.

4. Neal - got us playing good football but allowed players like Souness and Mills to leave. I still think was only two players away from having a top 6 side in 1981. Unfortunately, we sold our entire midfield and he left.

5. Mowbray - but 3 or 4 years, could top the list.

6. Robson - put us on the map but maybe wasn't that strong on the technical side of things.

7. Lawrence - worked well with the resources at his disposal, but was never really going to get us to push into the big time.

8. Todd - didn't really get long enough in the job in my view.

9. Maddren - right man, right place, wrong time.

10. Southgate - the bad bits outweighed the good bits, but simply he got the job before he was ready. Does anyone really believe all those signings were his?

11. Allison - was never going to be the man for us long term, but his appointment at least gave us a bit of excitement.

12. Strachan - the fact that some of his signings have formed the backbone of the current side prevents him from being bottom. He did however take over a side that was capable of promotion and within a year had turned us into relegation candidates.

13. Murdoch - out of his depth but wasn't help by being dealt a poor had by Amer.

HolgateCorner Posted on 06/12/2011 22:58
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

I personally won't have a word said against Bruce Rioch.

Complete and utter legend, out and away the biggest contributor in our history.

It's fantastic we have his apprentice now where he should be in charge of our team.

viv_andersons_nana Posted on 06/12/2011 22:59
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

"10. Southgate - the bad bits outweighed the good bits, but simply he got the job before he was ready. Does anyone really believe all those signings were his?"

Yep. He said as much over and over and over again... until it became clear they hadn't worked, of course.

Adi_Dem Posted on 07/12/2011 07:19
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

Exactly right viv. Of course they were his. To suggest otherwise is to simply make up excuses for him. He talked abouth the extensive research and tracking of the likes of Alves, Digard, Emnes and on and on. As soon as it went tits up, that's when he came up with his excuses which have been firmly denied by the club, which contradict the approach the club has adopted since Gibbo took over and which, i know personally, Southgate himself would not accept during his tenure.

r00fie Posted on 07/12/2011 07:36
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

After John Neale the club stumbled blindly and I cant see how blame can be apportioned to any of those who took the poison challice.

Willie Maddren was left with no money,third rate players and just his pride and love of the club to keep him going.

Bobby Murdoch was a shot in the dark.

Malcolm Allison was a good coach and tried to bring back Kevin Beatty more times than Beckham.

The most destructive manager in my time is Gordon Strachan.Even Raich Carter doesnt sound so bad! (NO! I dont remember him)[fb]

sasboro1 Posted on 07/12/2011 08:11
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

Its a no brainer, im my lifetime it has to be strachan. Should have left 6 months earlier. We would have ended up in league 1 with massive wage bill. Nearly destroyed the club with no team spirit and not many players liked him. southgate finished higher in his first season than smac did in his last season. Strachan was a disaster fron day one. We were one of the big payers in the champoonship and looked to be going doen under strachan. Only positive thing is signing robson

erimus74 Posted on 07/12/2011 08:14
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

How can anyone have southgate under strachan. I think southgate will make a great manager one day.

Think your username sums this reply up

Gene_Vincent Posted on 07/12/2011 08:21
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

Lawrence was awful. I know there is a lot of support for him on here, and i can never understand it. People have obviously forgotton Tommy Wright, John Gittens and the crowds reducing down to 6k.

The fact that he has managed for over 1000 games yet never won anything says it all.

People will say he had no budget, but what did Rioch have?

sasboro1 Posted on 07/12/2011 08:22
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

Well atleast lawrence got us back up. A lot better than strachsn who would have sent us down with a massive wage bill.

redlips Posted on 07/12/2011 08:31
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

Gareth Southgate by a long long way, useless he was[V]

Edwin Posted on 07/12/2011 08:33
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

Rioch had Cooper, Mowbray, Pally, Pears, Slaven & Ripley.

Now I love Rioch & for me that was the best 2 years of supporting Boro, & he undoubtedly moulded a good side, but god did he have the tools at his disposal, especially at that level.

goanmad Posted on 07/12/2011 08:49
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

PTCFT do you really think that neal wanted to lose them players? Not his choice! Has to be Mourdoch as worst, maclrean best

EpiphanyProudfoot Posted on 07/12/2011 09:18
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

Vote for Amelia Lily!

SYDNEYSIDER Posted on 07/12/2011 09:23
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

Southgate for letting Schwarzer go and replacing him with untried kids! Steve Gibson for letting McClaren go and replacing him with an untried manager.

kernaghanscodpiece Posted on 07/12/2011 10:47
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

Southgate was the cause of the disaster, Strachan was merely trying to sort the mess out. Clearly Strachan didn't do a very good job but the fact remains it was Southgate's mess.

Jon77 Posted on 07/12/2011 10:50
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

My old man insists that the worst ever boro manager is RAICH CARTER.

Managed Boro until 1966 and took us down to the 3rd for the first time in our history.

We couldn't have a thread like this and not give Raich a mention.

sasboro1 Posted on 07/12/2011 10:51
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

southgate did ok for first two years, even fiinished higher than smacs last season in charge.

strachan had one of the best squads to work with in the championship. he spunked a load of money and within 12 months turned us from top 3 side to a side on the verge of relegation with all the money spent. we are still suffering. from the off he was poor. 1 win in his first 9 games and we slipped down the league. his man-managment skill were lacking. and this is from a manager with 10 years experience at a decent level. in the end he looked out of his depth and lacking in ideas and never got the respect of most of the players.

Nero Posted on 07/12/2011 10:55
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

Sas,

As I've already stated the only reason we stayed up under Southgate was the goals scored by Viduka (mainly) and Yakubu.

His job began for real when it came to replacing them. He did so with Mido, Alves and Tuncay.

£18 million wasted in transfer fees and probably 150k per week in wages.

It was Southgate who created the mess in the first place.

sasboro1 Posted on 07/12/2011 11:05
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

missing the point though southgate did as good a job in the league in his first 2 seasons as smac did in his final season.

with strachan the decline happened straight away even though we had just come down and had one of the best squads in the league. we have seen with mowbray that even with a few of those squad members leaving we are still capable of a play off finish. i dont think fans realise just how poor we were under strachan.

you have to take into account the league we were in and the standard of the other teams and how good our squad is for that league. Its not like no other teams in the premier league were spending money. we were big spenders and payers in the championship audner strachan. he spent every penny he could.

if you are pointing out southgate, we finished above WBA so does that mean mowbray did an even worse job for them?


problem was southgate never go that full season to get us back up like robson, lawrence or rioch did.

Adi_Dem Posted on 07/12/2011 11:09
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

No sas, you're missing the point and it's a dead simple one. Whilst Southgate had the benefit of the nucleus of McClaren's squad he did OK. Of course he would because the players didn't change much.

As soon as he got what he described as his own squad, the club were relegated. The reason we were relegated was, irrespective of budget, whatever funds we had he wasted on rubbish and because he released the wrong players. That he was tactically inept as well was just the icing on the cake.

He started the ball rolling which Strachan continued to push along. Neither manager did much for the club but at least you can say that the majority of Strachan's signings have proven to be decent buys.

fuchs Posted on 07/12/2011 11:11
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

McClaren was the best in terms of success.
The trophy / the UEFA Cup Final / Those games that got us to the final. Incredible.

BUT at times his negative style also made him the worst. Frustrating and at times depressing to watch.

In terms of entertainment and satisfaction / passion and achievement on limited money the best are RIOCH and MOWBRAY.

Some great times and entertaining players under ROBSON but I don't think he was a genius manager.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 07/12/2011 11:13
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

venables should not really be classed, he was brought in by Robson, that was a smart decision by robson to work alongside robson.

Nero Posted on 07/12/2011 11:15
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

Adi - Exactly.

SYDNEYSIDER Posted on 07/12/2011 11:15
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

Pretty much agree with everything Fuchs said[^]

sasboro1 Posted on 07/12/2011 11:17
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

"
No sas, you're missing the point and it's a dead simple one. Whilst Southgate had the benefit of the nucleus of McClaren's squad he did OK. Of course he would because the players didn't change much."

so southgate did as good as smac in the league for 2 seasons because he was working with the same players.

but what i am saying is that strachan came in and went wrong straight away. with a very good squad for the championship.(top 3 quality?) 1 win in 9 games. 3rd to about 4th bottom in 12 months. 50 points over 46 games.

in comes mowbray, has to let loads of players go and cant spend much and a much weaker squad and has us up in the playoffs. it shows how poor strachan was.

as i said southgate never got the chance to get us back up like other managers did. getting relegated from the top flight is not unusual for a boro manager. happens to most. however the squad strachan had we should have been up near the top not down near the bottom. mowbray is showing strachan up

i could go into more detail about how strachan failed so badly but no point as we've been through this loads of times, you rarely admit you are wrong so i've made my point and will leave it now.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 07/12/2011 11:17
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

i feel sorry for southgate because it was his first job and he had no experience of even coaching, wasnt even qualified, but Gibson offered him something he could not turn down.

he failed, but i imagine he would do a decent job if given another go at management elsewhere.

and as said above he wasnt given the chance to get us back up like the likes of Lennie and Robson were.

SYDNEYSIDER Posted on 07/12/2011 11:20
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

I agree Raz!

Adi_Dem Posted on 07/12/2011 11:23
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

He didn't get the chance to win us promotion sas because it was obvious to everyone that mattered within the club and to many of us fans that the wheels were about to come off. We were poor and relied heavily on Huth and Johnson in Southgate's early games. Strachan didn't have the benefit of them two for long and it started to go wrong.

I'm not, in any way, saying that Strachan did anything but a XXXXXX poor job and I agree that those two are vying for that bottom spot in the modern era but I think Southgate pips him because he started the ball rolling, wasted countless sums of money that we could ill afford and began us on the journey that ended, hopefully, on the day Mogga arrived.

foggysfplandiet2 Posted on 07/12/2011 11:32
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

Those naming Southgate and Murdoch take no account of the fact that they had their hands very much tied financially.

Bobby Murdoch was a brilliant coach (as any player he coached wil tell you) but he had had the entire midfield sold from under him when he took over the job and was so cash strapped that he had to sign 5hit like John Brownlie and Joe Bolton.

Those of you who nominate Murdoch and Southgate should have been around when Raich Carter was in charge.......

Humpty Posted on 07/12/2011 11:32
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

I started watching Boro in '92

1. McClaren
2. Robson
3. Mowbray
4. Southgate
5. Lawrence
6. Strachan

To me Strachan was just out of his depth. It's the worst football i've ever seen us play, given the players he had under his control at the time i think it was absolutely criminal.

Southgate was victim of his inexperience and the situation at the club. He wasn't experienced enough to succeed in that position and made some bad decisions as a result. Despite that he did a better job in the Championship than Strachan.

Some of the best games i've seen at the Riverside came under McClaren's reign. I think the 'bad football' tag labelled against McClaren is an excuse to slate him because he just wasn't a likeable man and he flirted with the Newcastle/Leeds jobs.

Adi_Dem Posted on 07/12/2011 11:35
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

Southgate fared better in his brief spell in the Championship largely because of Adam Johnson and, to a lesser extent, Robert Huth.

I find it amazing that people believe a man who spunked oodles of cash on Alves, Digard, GON and the like had his "hands tied financially"

We had the most expensive strikeforce in our history and yet scored fewer goals than any team in the country.

foggysfplandiet2 Posted on 07/12/2011 11:38
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

"spunked oodles of cash on Alves"

99% of people on here wre SCREAMING for us to sign Alves before somebody else bought him.

The_same_as_before Posted on 07/12/2011 11:38
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

Southgate for me to.

God_Almighty Posted on 07/12/2011 11:41
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

Selective memories from some people on here, saying Southgate did well first two seasons.

We had to go to Wigan and win in the penultimate game of the first season, we were in a relegation scrap, no doubt about it.

Same for his second season, some absolute drivel on the pitch, the fact we beat City 8-1 at the end of the year makes people forget, the season was tedious as a whole.

Southgate by some distance, the amount of money spent on rubbish means it has to be him.

And i loved him as a player.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 07/12/2011 11:42
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

he should have been given a proper chance in the championship then

Humpty Posted on 07/12/2011 11:43
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

Sorry to be pedantic but i'm sure Viduka/Hasselbaink/Yakubu/Maccarone/Job/Nemeth cost more than Alves/Mido/Aliadiere.

Strachan also had Johnson, Huth and Wheater at his disposal plus a glut of his own signings that he couldn't get to work. Sorry i just can't go along anyone else being a worse manager than Strachan.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 07/12/2011 11:44
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

strachan was a bag of pants [V]

parmoboy Posted on 07/12/2011 11:49
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

Soutgate has been our worst manager without a doubt.

He let Schwarzer leave without replacing him

Sold Boateng, Cattermole and Rochemback, then replaced them with glass-legs Digard

Sold Young and replaced him with Justin Hoyte

Spent £4m on Emnes, a player for the future, when he should have been buying players for the present. Who did he think he was, Arsene Wenger?

Spent £6m on Mido, who worked hard on his fitness pre-season, had a great start to the season, then Southgate leaves him on the bench. Were we really suprised when Mido kicked off?

He dropped Alves just when he was finding a bit of form. I think he scored 3 in 3 at one time, then Southgate dropped him

Southgate was a nice guy, but a truly awful manager.
He was given decent money to spend, and he blew it. One of the big reasons why we are now in such a financial state.



sasboro1 Posted on 07/12/2011 11:52
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

"Selective memories from some people on here, saying Southgate did well first two seasons."

12th in his first season and 13th in his 2nd. missed staying up by 3 points in his 3rd season. finsihed 14th in smacs last season. so he did do ok in his first 2 seasons. now how did strachan do in his 12 months? 3rd to 20th wasnt. i agree southgate wasnt great but wasnt as bad as strachan who had very strong squad to work with in the championship. people forgotten how much he spent on these players from scotland?

its criminal how poor strachan was when you see how much top level experience he had. he looked out of his depth and played such negative football

Libbins Posted on 07/12/2011 12:04
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

You clowns make me laugh. Southgate was an abomination from start to finish as a manager. Even when we went down and kept a premier league team he replaced our best players with the likes of Sean StLedger.
Rose tinted specs.

sasboro1 Posted on 07/12/2011 12:07
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

well he should have signed boyd and thomson instead... and bucket load of crap strikers jsut like strachan [;)]

Humpty Posted on 07/12/2011 12:08
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

I think it's selective remeberence from posters like you to be honest. Sas pointed out his premier league record which wasn't too different from his predecessors. Strachan just has absolutely nothing to show from his tenture here.

festa5 Posted on 07/12/2011 12:08
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

Anyone who thinks Southgate did a worse job than Strachen is clueless. Dismantled a team 3rd in the league and used a large amount of money to turn it into relegation fodder. And those arguing (some of) Strachen's signings have come good so therefore he wasnt that bad - erm isnt getting said signings to play well a pretty important part of management? Not to mention the treatment of Emnes and Bennett which was ridiculous. Not arguing that Southgate was any good cos he wasn't, but Strachen was utterly hopeless from start to finish.

Humpty Posted on 07/12/2011 12:09
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

absolutely festa.

Libbins Posted on 07/12/2011 12:13
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

"Strachan just has absolutely nothing to show from his tenture here."
Apart from Bailey, McDonald, Robson, Thomson, McManus who are all decent championship players we get use out of when fit. Getting money for Brad Jones, too.

sasboro1 Posted on 07/12/2011 12:15
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

the best thing to come out of strachan's reign is signing barry robson. i think you are struggling to find anything else postive.
bailey didnt improve until mowbray turned up and played him in a deeper position

many of strachan's signings arent getting games or moved on despite him spending loads of cash. a lot of fans dont rate mcdonald. Mcmanus doesnt seem quite good enough to hold down a place permanently. Thomson is always injured. i've forgot all those poor strikers he bought in permanent or temporary. he was clueless and his only option was to try to built a new squad built on players from a scottish league


Libbins Posted on 07/12/2011 12:15
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

Nobody's saying Strachan was anything other than a cancer at the club, but it was Southgate who brought us to the championship. even with a good side when we first went down we were getting trounced 0-5 at home by, on paper, inferior teams. Plus, we were 4th, not 3rd. And all that was down to was Johnson.

Libbins Posted on 07/12/2011 12:16
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

"i've forgot all those poor strikers he bought in permanent or temporary" for every Marcus Bent there's a Caleb Folan.

sasboro1 Posted on 07/12/2011 12:18
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

strachan had johnson until end of january. we were 9th when johnson left.even with johnson we won 1 of the first 9 games under strachan. the signs were already there.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 07/12/2011 12:19
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

'Plus, we were 4th, not 3rd. And all that was down to was Johnson.'

not the players fault we got relegated, but it was because of certain players that we acheived 4th in the championship.

lol

Senor_Chester Posted on 07/12/2011 12:30
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

"99% of people on here wre SCREAMING for us to sign Alves before somebody else bought him."

So what? I bet people on here aren't paid a couple of million a year to research players before buying them. The most the rest of us had heard was that A) He was Brazilian, and B) He scored seven goals in one match. Come to think of it, that's probably the strength of what Southgate signed him on.

Southgate as well for me, without a shadow of a doubt, the guy seemed completely clueless. Strachan was a close second but as soon as he came in at least he started getting players in positions we needed them.

sasboro1 Posted on 07/12/2011 12:32
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

"Strachan was a close second but as soon as he came in at least he started getting players in positions we needed them."

yeah like signing 2 strikers on big money who were poor in the air then play the long ball and get rid of our creative players and have no pace and bring in hardworking slow midfielders.. not forgetting wanting rid of our only 2 left backs..worked well didnt it!

grantus Posted on 07/12/2011 12:38
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

Was thinking the same thing Raz [:D]

Just like saying that we stayed up due to Yad and Viduka, but no credit to Southgate, yet Alves, who we had been trying to sign for years, was Southgate spunking all the clubs money.

Huth (considered a success), who we had been looking to sign prior to his appoint as well, is despite of Southgate.

All failures = Southgate's fault
All success = despite of Southgate

It's simply a lot of people on here, conjuring facts (as they usually do), to suite their argument, regardless of whether they make sense or not. The Southgate hate mob is out again, let's not take into account any mitigating circumstances, as they obviously don't count for anything or are made up, where any attack is obviously true.

Neither were a success (obviously), but I struggle to find any redeeming circumstances surrounding the Strachan era.

Anyway, folk have made up their mind, that's that.

I have more fond memories of the Rioch time than I ultimately will of McClaren's, but at the end of the day, UEFA Cup run and League Cup is what we'll remember McClaren for, not the dire football inbetween, He has to be number one.

Some false dawns under Southgate yes. But we did have some great results, coupled with the bad ones and at least he tried to play football the right way. What did Strachan give us?


Edwin Posted on 07/12/2011 12:44
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

The financially hamstrung Southgate spent £12.7m on Alves, £6m on Mido, £2m on Aliadiere, £2m on Hoyte, £4m on Digard, £6m on Huth & (I guess) a massive signing on fee to sign Tuncay. £32m+ to build 'his team'. All would have been on huge wages.

Add to that inheriting from the youth set up Downing, Wheater, Johnson (& Cattermole who he stupidly flogged)then any manager worth 2 bob should have kept us up in a canter.

The Gate was a F***ing disaster.

Old_Gregg Posted on 07/12/2011 12:51
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

"No sas, you're missing the point and it's a dead simple one. Whilst Southgate had the benefit of the nucleus of McClaren's squad he did OK. Of course he would because the players didn't change much."

So effectively what you are saying is that Southgate did a half decent job of managing decent players, but was terrible at buying his own players.

Strachan however, despite being able to sign reasonably good players, could not manage them, nor could he manage the players he inherited. It seems pretty obviously that Strachan was far, far worse a manager than Southgate.

grantus Posted on 07/12/2011 12:52
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

£12.7m on Alves was inflated due to us chasing him for so long and the club bumping up the price. I wouldn't think his wage would be comparable.

£6m for Mido was another desperation signing, brought on at the last minute by that sham of a footballer Yakubu, I would have thought he would have been on more money than Alves, but not as much as Yak.

Yes, both poor signings and ultimately mismanaged too (particularly Alves), but I don't think that the financials should be used against Southgate, as I don't think he was as invloved in them, as some people think. I think he was more along the lines of, "I want these players, can we afford them?", or "Yes, I'd have them in the squad."

You want to beat someone up over that, I would try Keith Lamb.

Edwin Posted on 07/12/2011 12:54
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

I don't blame him for the fees paid, All I mean Grantus is that it p*sses all over the arguement he wasn't backed with hard cash.

erimus74 Posted on 07/12/2011 12:58
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

I'll go along with Edwin, Southgate IMHO, was the worst manager ever, people will say Murdoch but as he took the job Amer had sold Proctor, Armstrong,Johnstone & Hodgeson was more or less out the door, yes he made some poor signings, Baxter, Bolton & Thompson but I'll forgive him for that for signing one of the best players in my time following the Boro, Heine Otto.

No Southgate for me, poor,poor signings, weak, passionless, heartless team, a team that got relegated without a whimper.

grantus Posted on 07/12/2011 13:01
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

Those are the two big signings and I think I make a reasonable case for why the transfer fees were so high. I doubt that the wages were [in comparison] of the same level of those previously. The same would apply to every other signing he made.

Yes he replaced with inferior players, but isn't that more down to the wages we were prepared to offer?

Bloody hell, Robson allegedly had Ravanelli on £60k a week and he still took us down.

McClaren brought in Viduka, Yakubu, Hasselbaink, Mendieta, etc.

Southgate simply couldn't, I'm sure he would have loved to have brought in players that good, but we had stopped paying those sort of wages.

It just seems to me that this was intrinsic to us ultimately being relegated, something that shouldn't be laid at the feet of Southgate, but ultimately always is.

That was the legacy of the successful years under McClaren, in my eyes.

Strachan was allowed to be competitive in his division and completely buggered it up from day one.

Anyway...

Old_Gregg Posted on 07/12/2011 13:01
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

I also love how the usual suspects are claiming that we were only in 4th under Southgate because of Johnson. The same Johnson who did nothing under Strachan. Southgate could manage him, Strachan couldn't. And people are using this as evidence that Strachan was a better manager? Ludicrous.

Lefty Posted on 07/12/2011 13:06
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

Strachan was by far the worst, for all the reasons Sas has stated.




boro8686 Posted on 07/12/2011 13:09
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

Strachan by a country mile!

Edwin Posted on 07/12/2011 13:16
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

I have no great passion for Strachan. However, he held his hands up, admitted his mistakes & walked away. Southgate blamed everyone else but himself, which was pathetic.

As for wages, I'm not sure I share the confidence of Grantus that certain players weren't on big bucks. I don't think Boro tempt players from Arsenal, Spurs & PSG if we are not offering over the odds.

And I'ld throw in, re the case against Southgate, one of the most spineless, inept performances I've ever seen from a Boro team re Cardiff in the FA cup.

Humpty Posted on 07/12/2011 13:20
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

"I have no great passion for Strachan. However, he held his hands up, admitted his mistakes & walked away. Southgate blamed everyone else but himself, which was pathetic."

That has absolutely nothing to do with their respective management abilities or lack of.

Old_Gregg Posted on 07/12/2011 13:20
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

"I have no great passion for Strachan. However, he held his hands up, admitted his mistakes & walked away"

And thus pulled the wool over so many peoples eyes. He can't have been that bad because he admitted what a bad job he had been doing? The question is who was the worst manager, not who was the worst manager not counting those who admitted they did a terrible job.

Old_Gregg Posted on 07/12/2011 13:21
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

Beat me to it Humpty! Spot on though.

Edwin Posted on 07/12/2011 13:24
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

On performance I struggle to split them, so I'll plump for the one who acted like a wan*er after he left if you don't mind.

sasboro1 Posted on 07/12/2011 13:28
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

i think a lot of people are missing the bit that in the premier league we were no more than a lower midtable side. mainly due to the size of our club. but in the championship we were one of the biggest payers and probably biggest spenders in that league at that time. you also have to take into account the quality of the league at that time.

what strachan did in the championship was probably equivalent to turning a club like liverpool/arsenal into a side fighting relegation.

we are in the championship so all that money spent in the prem feels even more. strachan spent a hell of a lot for the championship. we should have easily made the play offs.

you have to take into account the relativity of how the club/team compare to the teams in the same league.


Old_Gregg Posted on 07/12/2011 13:30
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

"On performance I struggle to split them, so I'll plump for the one who acted like a wan*er after he left if you don't mind."

OK, I'll plump for the one who was ginger, as hair colour has just as much relevance to managerial ability as "acting like a w*nker" does(which incidentally I must have missed).

Adi_Dem Posted on 07/12/2011 13:34
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

I think people on here are taking it as though Strachan is being defended when in fact he isn't. Choosing which one of them was worse is like being asked to pick whether you want to be shot in the left knee or the right knee.

SOUTHGATE

Southgate's record in the Premier League was reasonable for two seasons because he had McClaren's players. We got relegated with barely a whimper when he made the squad his own.

He was clearly backed with cash and to argue he was asked to manage on a shoestring is making excuses for him.

He made the decisions in terms of who came in and went out of the club. Those decisions were, almost exclusively, terrible.

His tactics and decision making were, simply, dreadful.

Following relegation he was given a few games and it was obvious to most that the wheels were falling off. He didn't deserve any more time so we took a risk by appointing Strachan. The wrong appointment but the right decision to make a change.

So, overall, Southgate started the rot setting in. He took us down because of his decisions and didn't, to me anyway, prove anything in the Championship. he was a terrible appointment and performed poorly. Once that ball was rolling down the hill, the little ginger fella just continued pushing with his own brand of XXXXXXe management.

STRACHAN

Contrary to the posts above, he had Johnson for a few months, yes, but did not have Huth. He'd gone and been replaced by Sean St Ledger. shudder.

He took over a weak, spineless team that relied on one player to achieve results. That player left in January.

That said, he brought in pap players on loan and proved himself incapable of motivating the team, developing any sort of pattern of play that didn't revolve around lumping it into channels and destroyed the morale of the fanbase.

What he got right was the majority of his signings. Sas says Robson is the only positive. I disagree. Bailey, McManus, Robson, Macdonald and even Thomson are all good players at this level and now we have a proper manager to manage them.

So, as I say, there's a wafer between them but if I had to pick one it would be Southgate because he started the process that got us to where we are today.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 07/12/2011 13:40
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

Thomson was a terrible signing as he had a terrible injury record, something Strachan should have known was a risk, and after less than 1 game proved to be so. (less than 2 games, i thought he injured himself in the ipswich defeat but it was the following game he got injured).. he managed 4 games that season.


sasboro1 Posted on 07/12/2011 13:43
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

bailey was nothing special until mowbray came in and played him deeper. mcmanus cant hold a place down in the team.

strachan brought in 17 players in the 12 months. some permanent some onloan. it just seemed to be getting worse and for someone with so much management experience he was pretty clueless all the time.

grantus Posted on 07/12/2011 13:44
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

"Southgate's record in the Premier League was reasonable for two seasons because he had McClaren's players. We got relegated with barely a whimper when he made the squad his own."

That says it all, he managed a good squad of players to mid table and when they were replaced with inferior (cheaper) players he struggled to keep us up and we went down on the last day.

It's about looking at the circumstances surrounding it adi, which I don't think you're doing. You call it excuses, but if the reality is just an excuse then fine, you've got me.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 07/12/2011 13:47
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

'"Southgate's record in the Premier League was reasonable for two seasons because he had McClaren's players. We got relegated with barely a whimper when he made the squad his own."


thats a good point, will SMACs players that he brought in on his decent budget we did well, when we had to bring the budget down and change the squad with more affordable players we did not do aswell.

Old_Gregg Posted on 07/12/2011 13:50
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

I don't think there's a great deal between them, but bear in mind that Southgate proved himself capable of managing other peoples signings (the 2 seasons he kept us up with a predominantly McClaren squad) and also proved himself capable of managing his own players (albeit at the lower level of the Championship, and only for a matter of months before being sacked).

Strachan proved himself unable to manage other peoples signings, and also unable to manage his own signings, all at Championship level. I shudder to think what would have happened had we appointed him when we did Southgate.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 07/12/2011 13:51
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

well said Old_Gregg [^]

sasboro1 Posted on 07/12/2011 13:51
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

so for two years southgate got the same out of the same players as what smac did.

when mowbray came in for strachan he got shot of a load of players,had a smaller squad and got more out of the players. doubled the goals we scored and not far off doubling the points we got in the same season

HardwickGeorge Posted on 07/12/2011 13:52
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

The only reason I wouldn't have Jack Charlton at the top would be because he needed maybe 2 players to win us the league...and he didn't buy. Apart from that he was the best.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 07/12/2011 13:53
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

TONY! TONY! TONY!

thats how the chant goes i think. he has done a fantastic job.

Adi_Dem Posted on 07/12/2011 14:06
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

Sas - well no, he didn't, did he. I don't recall a European final and success in cup competitions under Southgate - do you? You have to put McClaren's league position in the context of those cup runs and the choices he made as a result.

Grantus - inferior? yes, undoubtedly. Cheaper? Erm, well no not always (or indeed often).

Trust me I'm looking at the circumstances around it and they are excuses and only your version of 'reality'.

Finally, I don't think he proved anything at Championship level. Nothing at all.


Razmond_HWDR Posted on 07/12/2011 14:10
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

'Finally, I don't think he proved anything at Championship level. Nothing at all.'

we were 4th.

in what time he was given he proved he could do a better job than strachan.

even you said above he proved himself better in the championship.

Adi_Dem Posted on 07/12/2011 14:15
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

You'll have to tell me where I said that Raz because I don't recall at all. If I did then I was wrong.

Yes, we were fourth but as I've already said I, along with many others, recognised that the wheels were falling off and he had the benefit of players that were just far too good for that level.

So I stand by what I said.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 07/12/2011 14:19
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

'Southgate fared better in his brief spell in the Championship '
[rle]

'I don't think he proved anything at Championship level. Nothing at all.'



viv_andersons_nana Posted on 07/12/2011 14:30
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

"Strachan also had Johnson, Huth and Wheater at his disposal plus a glut of his own signings that he couldn't get to work."

You're wrong there, Humpty. Strachan never had the luxury of Robert Huth. He'd gone to Stoke at the end of the transfer-window and Southgate replaced him with, erm, Sean St.Ledger. And Adam Johnson was injured a lot towards the end of his spell here, which coincided with our slide down the table.


Razmond_HWDR Posted on 07/12/2011 14:33
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

but those strachan loan signings were awful.

viv_andersons_nana Posted on 07/12/2011 14:37
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

"I also love how the usual suspects are claiming that we were only in 4th under Southgate because of Johnson. The same Johnson who did nothing under Strachan. Southgate could manage him, Strachan couldn't"

He was injured for a lot of Strachan's tenure and barely played under him. He came back from injury far too quickly as he wanted to show-off in front of Bobby Mancini and get his move to Citeh. As for Southgate being able to manage him, well yeah. I mean, he played almost thirty times in the season we came down and did pretty much bugger all. The fact his contract was about to run-out stemmed from Southgate not knowing what to do with him, from not being able to get anything like a good bit of form out of him. Johnson only started playing when he fancied it. First when he was trying to impress whilst at Watford, then in the second-tier when his deal was about to expire.

sasboro1 Posted on 07/12/2011 14:38
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

the squad was still far superior to the rest of the league apart from maybe WBA and newcastle. the slide started as soon as strahcan turned up (1 win in his first 9 games) i'm sure johnson still played a few games up until end of january. when he left we were down in 9th. he spent a bit of money in january ans still the slide continued. in 12 months(46 games) we got 52 points from strachan. over a season that would have us in 20th place. he also spent again in the summer with no improvement at all. his best signings have all doen better under mowbray (bailey and robson)

when strachan left we were 20th and 2 points above a relegation place. probably would have gone down if he had stayed. all the teams below us at that point apart from preston stayed up

EpiphanyProudfoot Posted on 07/12/2011 14:43
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

'Worst ever manger to manage the Boro'

Worst ever spelling of manager too!

'Away in a manger? no crib for a bed?

Dibzzz Posted on 07/12/2011 14:44
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

In my lifetime Gordon Strachan by a fcuking mile. And I'm going back to when Charlton was manager.

the_dude_strikes_back Posted on 07/12/2011 14:46
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

havent we done this southgate versus strachan thing to death, both managers operating under totally different circumstances and for that matter leagues

it's gone, boring as XXXXXX



Razmond_HWDR Posted on 07/12/2011 14:50
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

how long was Johnson really injured?

looking back at the stats he scored in late October under strachan and scored in december and scored in January.

Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 07/12/2011 15:01
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

'the slide started as soon as strahcan turned up'

It had already started, hence Southgate's departure.

sasboro1 Posted on 07/12/2011 15:04
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

C_T_C, i know you dont get to many games but we were doing ok in the championship when southgate was sacked. its a different league than the prem you know. players arent quite as good you know. some teams go back up you know. see WBA and newcastle that season. we had a squad capable of at least the plays not down in 20th under strachan

viv_andersons_nana Posted on 07/12/2011 15:05
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

We might have to ask Shaun to dig the stats out regarding how many times Johnson figured under Strachan, Raz. I remember it as him barely playing at all, but I may be wrong on that. It'd be interesting to find out the figures though.

sasboro1 Posted on 07/12/2011 15:11
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

even without johnson the squad was very capable of reaching the play offs. i eman mowbray has a weaker and smaller squad and spent not even a million since arriving and has us up there. its not like there are 10 tough teams in the championship. we got turned over by some very poor teams understrachan. in some games we hardly had a shot on goal and played with 10men behind the ball. even though strachan had spent a load of money on strikers and midfielders.

I remember playing boyd up front on his own all the time who was slow, poor in the air and couldn hold the ball up. the rest of the team were in our half and we would just hoof it up

Adi_Dem Posted on 07/12/2011 15:17
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

Yes Raz, Southgate did fare better for the reasons I've outlined and so, to me, didn't prove himself at that level.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 07/12/2011 15:18
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

so you only give credit to one player for us being 4th. [^]

Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 07/12/2011 15:27
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

We were dropping like a stone, 3 home defeats on the trot, including a 5-0 hammering, isn't doing ok. I watched two of the defeats, we weren't a good side.

Strachan was poor but the Boro squad was poor with the odd exception when he took over. How many of the players Strachan sold have we really missed besides Johnson?

EpiphanyProudfoot Posted on 07/12/2011 15:27
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

Mowbray is the worst, keeps making silly substitutions.

Adi_Dem Posted on 07/12/2011 15:30
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

"C_T_C, i know you dont get to many games but we were doing ok in the championship when southgate was sacked"

Now that is a matter of opinion. For many of us, and, importantly, Steve Gibson there was very clear evidence that we were on the slide. Our position was OK (even if it was finely balanced given how close we were to mid-table at that point) but our performances were getting worse.

"even without johnson the squad was very capable of reaching the play offs. i eman mowbray has a weaker and smaller squad and spent not even a million since arriving and has us up there. its not like there are 10 tough teams in the championship. we got turned over by some very poor teams understrachan. in some games we hardly had a shot on goal and played with 10men behind the ball. even though strachan had spent a load of money on strikers and midfielders."

You're still missing an important point here sas. Nobody, I don't think, is arguing that Strachan was anything other than a disaster for us. We're not defending him, we're just picking which XXXXXX manager was the XXXXXXtest!

Raz - we were fourth because of an over reliance on Johnson and Huth. Those two players made us significantly better than all of the teams we played. Once Huth went, we got worse. Once Johnson got injured/left we got worse still. I'm not giving them anything, I'm simply saying, now for the third time, that my opinion is that Southgate getting us to 4th was not evidence that he could cut it or that he had proven himself.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 07/12/2011 15:30
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

southgate won his last game in charge [^]

crouchy Posted on 07/12/2011 15:35
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

People of different eras will have different views, Older lads will say Raich Carter, Malcolm Allison, Bobby Murdoch as the worst

Younger lads are mentioning Gareth Southgate and Gordon Strachan.

Personally being younger than most on here and not seeing the boro under Carter, Allison and Murdoch I can safely say Strachan in my opinion was the worst, Southgate did take us down but we were 3rd and looked nailed on play-off contenders in my opinion after he brought us down but ended up overhauling the whole team he may have made some good signings but some of his signings didnt perform at all or took mogga to bring it out of them.

Had we brought mogga in when we got strachan he could have performed miracles with the backing strachan received.

Too many if's buts and maybes though lets deal with the hand we've been dealt and hopefully mogga will be at the top of that list in years to come

sasboro1 Posted on 07/12/2011 15:37
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

we should sack mowbray because we are only 3rd/4th in the table [^]

Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 07/12/2011 15:38
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

I watched us when Bob Dennison was in charge, I still think Southgate was the worst.

[:D]

grantus Posted on 07/12/2011 15:40
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

Southgate was a novice learning his trade.

Strachan was an experienced accomplished manager.

Which one was more applicable?

foggysfplandiet2 Posted on 07/12/2011 15:45
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

"So what?"

So what, Chester? The point I'm making is that if Southgate had failed to sign Alves then people on this board would have been slaughtering him for THAT. It's pretty hypocritical for so many people on here to slag off Southgate for signing Alves when they THEMSELVES were screaming at him to get Alves bought, that's "so what".

Great thing, hindsight.


Adi_Dem Posted on 07/12/2011 15:50
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

Except that I don't think he was being slagged off for it was he? the point being made, I think, is twofold. Firstly, the argument that he had no funds just doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Secondly, if his hand were tied financially why did he drop significant chunks of the budget on single players instead of investing it in the squad? Signing Alves and then flogging his entire supply line was just ridiculous. And people said so at the time.

Comparison between Southgate's final league position and our current one is also wrong sas. Southgate's was after a handful of games in very different circumstances to the ones Mogga finds himself in. Oh, and Mogga has built up momentum and proven how capable he is. Southgate's team performances were dropping like a stone and the wheels were most definitely falling off.

Edwin Posted on 07/12/2011 15:51
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

Robbo was pretty gash too, given the players we were attracting at the time. Now that was a period where we definitely underachieved.

Again in hindsight, but if we had thrown that dough at someone who actually knew what he was doing, at a time when we were big players in terms of fees and wages, we may have really got somewhere.

THEBOROBOSS Posted on 07/12/2011 15:56
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

Strachan for the fact he signed Lee Miller who made LDG look like Lionel Messi.

Dynamo Posted on 07/12/2011 16:23
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

> JimmyFloydPiggybank wrote:-

>Most people, and people who have been going to the game longer than me are in the majority saying Southgate


I don't know where you get this "Most people" from. I've been going to matches since 1970 and I know a heck of a lot of fans who have been going for longer than I have, and I don't think one of them would put Strachan as being better than Southgate. Southgate wasn't that good, but Strachan was totally abysmal.

ProudToComeFromTeesside Posted on 07/12/2011 16:48
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

PTCFT do you really think that neal wanted to lose them players? Not his choice! Has to be Mourdoch as worst, maclrean best"

He didn't want to sell Johnston and left because of that and the plans to sell Armstrong and Proctor as well. As for the sales of Souness and Mills, he admitted in his interview with Bernie Slaven in "Bernie's About" that he felt it necessary to cash in on them so he could bring on the younger players like Hodgson, Johnston and Proctor. I recently bought Millsy's book and Neal even visited Millsy at his house to tell him that the club had accepted £500,000 for him. The feeling that Mills got was that the club wanted to cash in on him.

As for Southgate, I'm not saying all the signings were not his. Clearly Aliadiere was as there were quotes from GS at the time saying how he’d followed his career for a while.

As for Alves, there is some independent confirmation that Southgate had nowt to do with it. He couldn’t say owt publicly at the time. It would have totally undermined Alves, Gibson and Lamb. However, no manager worth his salt should accept a player forced on them by the Chairman and Chief Exec. The way it should work is that the manager should ultimately identify which players to sign and that the Chairman/Chief Exec should make the financial decisions on the signing, i.e. fee, wages etc.



Link: Dave Leadbeater - chief scout when GS was manager

foggysfplandiet2 Posted on 07/12/2011 17:05
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

Er, yeah, Southgate most definitely HAS been slagged off on here for buying Alves - whether he had anything to do with buying him or not.

Supply lines cut? Maybe, but he just never finished as well as he should have when he had the chance.

grantus Posted on 07/12/2011 18:16
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

Although I am convinced, from listening to interviews of those involved and reading the sports press around the time, that Southgate DID slash the wage bill considerably, there are some that refuse to accept it, for whatever reason, they believe it not to be true. So I've had a look at the squads of McClaren's last season and the season that we went down under Southgate. Makes for interesting reading (did for me anyway).

Players that remained.

Adam Johnson
Andrew Taylor
Brad Jones
Chris Riggott
David Wheater
Emanuel Pogatetz
Josh Walker
Matthew Bates
Ross Turnbull
Stewart Downing
Tom Craddock
Tony McMahon

Players that left.

Andrew Davies
Colin Cooper
Danny Graham
David Knight
Doriva
Fábio Rochemback
Franck Queudrue
Gaizka Mendieta
Gareth Southgate
George Boateng
James Morrison
Jason Kennedy
Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink
Joseph Desire-Job
Lee Cattermole
Malcolm Christie
Mark Schwarzer
Mark Viduka
Massimo Maccarone
Michael Reiziger
Ray Parlour
Stuart Parnaby
Szilárd Németh
Ugo Ehiogu
Yakubu Aiyegbeni

Players that had come in.

Afonso Alves
Didier Digard
Gary O'Neil
Graeme Owens
Jérémie Aliadière
Joe Bennett
John Johnson
Jonathan Franks
Jonathan Grounds
Julio Arca
Justin Hoyte
Marlon King
Marvin Emnes
Mido
Mohamed Shawky
Nathan Porritt
Rhys Williams
Robert Huth
Seb Hines
Tuncay Şanlı

Obviously a much inferior bunch were brought in, compared to those who left, but to think that the inbound group were not on substantially less than those that left doesn't wash, with maybe the exception of Mido, who was a panic buy. O'Neil was probably on a lot too, but just look at how many big wages were shipped out.


Adi_Dem Posted on 07/12/2011 18:39
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

That's all well and good grants but the our outgoings on wages are clearly set out in our accounts. There isn't the substantial drop that you want there to be. When you factor in the fact that Southgate had to shrink the squad anyway because we were playing many many fewer games then you quickly see that the gap in wage spend is extremely small.

All of that said, it's irrelevant to this argument anyway. If he was financially restricted he is more culpable rather than less. To bring in a midfielder whose wage was more than the combined wages of Cattermole and Morrison on a limited budget was criminal. To drop a record fee and wages to match on a single player was criminal. To drop such big money on a notoriously unreliable Egyptian was criminal. And on and on we go.

To make those decisions with less money to spend is worse than wasting money when you've got it to spare - can you not see that?

grantus Posted on 07/12/2011 18:42
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

I can, but can you not see that on the evidence we've seen the balance of probability points to the Alves signing being out of his hands and that the Mido signing was the club panicking once Yakubu had put us over a barrel?

I don't think Southgate was a success by any means, but there were a number of mitigating factors that simply do not exist for Strachan.

boro74 Posted on 07/12/2011 18:43
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

This thread is a perfect example of why debate is fairly pointless on here. People have their opinions and will never admit they were wrong, despite the facts.

The season we were relegated under Southgate we were paying bottom four wages.

Strachan took over a team that was near the top of the table. He was given money to spend and signed all the players that he wanted. We were paying top wages in the Championship. He left the the club near the bottom of the table.

Soutgate's record in the Championship is almost identical to our record for the same number of games at the start of this season.

Adi_Dem Posted on 07/12/2011 18:49
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

No grantus I don't see that at all. In fact, I know as an absolute fact that Southgate had final say. Always.

Boro74 - have you not just proven your own point as set out in your first paragraph? You have a view and are expressing it and I doubt your mind will be changed. I've been wrong countless times on here an always admitted it. If someone comes on here and presents a good argument that Southgate wasn't as bad as I think he was then I will admit it again. All I have read here though is the standard and predictable excuses that simply don't hold up to scrutiny.

grantus Posted on 07/12/2011 19:00
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

There is a difference between Southgate going to Lamb and Gibson and saying, I really want to sign this player, and Gibson and Lamb going to Southgate saying that we've been watching this guy for a while and for reasons x,y and z we want to bring him in.

Some of Southgate's signings were very bad and were accentuated by the weakening of the squad in general. You say it makes his decisions even worse, when I think it shows he had less opportunity to buy his way out of trouble.

The club knew he had been a full time professional player prior to stepping up to manager, to expect him to completely overhaul the squad whilst reducing the relative wage bill as well as the squad size, whilst relying on the club's scouting network to identify the players we were going to bring in, was always going to be difficult for a rookie. He didn't have his badges, he didn't have experience of scouting and researching players himself, I suspect he relied heavily on others to identify players.

What about in the January transfer window when we were screaming out for a central midfielder, yet the best offer the club could come up with was an offer for Ben Watson which was no better than he was on already?

Gibson himself said in radio interview that all signings were decided by the three of them, yes Gareth could veto a signing, just as the money men could as well.

I doubt O'Neil would have allowed to be influenced to that degree, but that's what we got when we appointed Southgate, the club was developing a manager there, but didn't support him in the transfer market when we really needed it.

r00fie Posted on 07/12/2011 19:03
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

Was anybody on here born before 2004? It seems like theres one hell of an argument about three former managers. May I remind the under - 40s on here that Middlesbrough was invented before Steve Mac[cr]

JimmyFloydPiggybank Posted on 07/12/2011 19:34
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

Gareth and Keano on ITV, now I would I would find that one a tough to rank who is the better manager!

Adi_Dem Posted on 07/12/2011 20:09
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

Sorry grantus, and you either accept this or you don't, but you're completely wrong. The way that the club operates in terms of transfer decisions hasn't changed at all under Robbo, MacClaren, Southgate and on and on. To believe that suddenly the policy changed under Southgate and en suddenly flipped back when Strachan took over is just simple excuse making.

Yet another excuse to offer is to suggest he didn't have the opportunity to buy his way out of trouble. It's very simple - he wasted whatever budget we had, which was not insignificant, on rubbish. Anything else around that is just noise.

You refer to Ben Watson. What actually happened is that we refused to meet the unreasonable demands of his agent. A policy Gibson started before Southgate and continues to date. In addition, we also agreed a fee for Harper of £5m that window and Gareth pulled out and didn't have any other options.

You refer to the scouting system. That'll be the one that Gareth put in place and then waxed lyrical about. Again, you make assumptions that are just plain wrong. He had no trouble in telling Gibson, in fact nearly falling out with Gibson, that he wasn't going to sign Douala.

You say he had to completely overhaul the squad. He didn't. He had three years to plan and develop the squad and that's where he singularly failed.

No support in the transfer market? Do me a favour.

Jonny_Ingbar Posted on 07/12/2011 20:11
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

This thread should be deleted for humane purposes [8)]

viv_andersons_nana Posted on 07/12/2011 20:16
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

Jonny - [:D]

captain5 Posted on 07/12/2011 21:00
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

If I thought he had hardly any money to spend but Mowbray was planning in January to get rid of Bailey, Robson and Williams and replace them with maybe Gary O' Neil or Didier Digard then I'd probably say him.

If up front he spunked it all on a forward who would hardly play for a season and take three years to come good at a lower level; that would definitely add to that way of thinking.

If he could say that we treat all our signings based on their overall characters yet still sign lazy Africans and ex and future jailbirds, that would be a consideration as well.

If not, then I'll probably not change my mind from what it is now.

grantus Posted on 07/12/2011 22:20
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

[smi] Where do you get this from?

Adi_Dem Posted on 07/12/2011 22:46
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

Well put it this way - I don't just guess.

grantus Posted on 07/12/2011 22:51
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

and neither do I, I take what I say from interviews that I've heard or read, or from the press.

stepanovs Posted on 07/12/2011 22:53
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

I like Gareth and have some sympathy for him(eg he didn't want to sell Young, he was persuaded it was best for the club).

But, overall, you cannot say his performance in the market was anything other than appalling.

As Kappy says, selling 3 significant midfeilders and replacing them with one untried sicknote was inexcusable.

Gordon was just as bad for us, for different reasons.

Adi_Dem Posted on 07/12/2011 22:56
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

And yet you still end up with the wrong answer!!

grantus Posted on 07/12/2011 23:00
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

Well, any answer that is different to yours is always wrong according to you. You know everything.

Adi_Dem Posted on 07/12/2011 23:05
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

Glad you noticed.

Come on now, I was just kidding!

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 08/12/2011 07:39
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

wasnt strachan able to sign players from scotland on decent wages and costing a few million each?

whereas just before he arrived southgate was only allowed to sign the likes of yeates and coyne and lita, who all cost next to nothing in comparison. At the same time we were selling players like Downing, and had others we knew we could off load.

Gibson did the same with lennie a few years ago, he had no money to spend on players and then robson arrived and had millions to spend.

Adi_Dem Posted on 08/12/2011 10:27
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

The players from Scotland did not command significant salaries. Strachan confirmed that. Not that transfer fee funding is relevant but we sold Johnson for £7m and bought the likes of McManus, Thomson, Bailey and Macdonald.

Lita was one of the highest earners at the club and Southgate had also been allowed to sign St Ledger (thankfully that decision was reversed), Caleb Folan and the like.

It's completely different to Lennie Lawrence anyway because Lennie had never had anything to spend (and the structure of the club was different when he was there), we didn't have the new Sky money at that point and we didn't have a ground or manager that was going to attract any players.

Southgate, on the other hand, had already demonstrated his profligacy with money and so had been financially supported. Who could blame Gibson for pulling that particular plug.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 08/12/2011 10:32
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

ffs we sold Downing for over 10million and bought yeates for 500k.

if you agree that the plug was pulled on southgate financially when he went into that championship season, then you will agree that that season they were allowed different funds, as the structure in place for them was different.


we didnt have sky money when we paid a million for cox and all the other players robson brought in that summer, nor a new ground.

sasboro1 Posted on 08/12/2011 10:36
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

"The players from Scotland did not command significant salaries. Strachan confirmed that. Not that transfer fee funding is relevant but we sold Johnson for £7m and bought the likes of McManus, Thomson, Bailey and Macdonald.!"


well apart from boyd,mcmanus,mcdonald, thomson and robson.

Boyd was on big money. we offered him more than teams in the premier league. he chose us over them.them 4 were on 15k-30k werent they. boyd only came to us for the cash just like he has gone to turkey for even more money.

under strachan we were offering the best wages in the championship. offering wages up there with some premier league clubs. club was expectign to go straight back up under strachan, that was the set up. he XXXXXXed up badly and we are paying the penalty now with no money for mowbray to work with. all money from sales has gone back into paying the debts. we even seem quite strict on money for loan signings. i dread to think how badly strachan would have done if he was in mowbrays situation

Adi_Dem Posted on 08/12/2011 10:38
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

Calm yourself down Raz. You're missing the point, as ever.

"ffs we sold Downing for over 10million and bought yeates for 500k."

Yes, so what? What's your point?

"if you agree that the plug was pulled on southgate financially when he went into that championship season, then you will agree that that season they were allowed different funds, as the structure in place for them was different."

I'm not even sure I understand what you're trying to write there but if you're suggesting that Strachan and Southgate operated under different financial during that first Championship season then no, I don't agree, for a number of reasons.

"we didnt have sky money when we paid a million for cox and all the other players robson brought in that summer, nor a new ground."

No, we didn't, but we had the promise of it if we won promotion - that's the difference.


Razmond_HWDR Posted on 08/12/2011 10:40
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

'No, we didn't, but we had the promise of it if we won promotion - that's the difference.'

we had the promise of more money if lennie got us promotion.

you dont finance things on promises that may not happen, you should know that.

lennie had to fight for the vickers signing, unlike robson and his signings i.e. pearson and cox etc only months later.

Adi_Dem Posted on 08/12/2011 10:40
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

Sorry sas but that is simply not true.

In terms of salaries, I'll give you Boyd (though he had no offers whatsoever from the Premier League) but none of the others are on anything like Premier League money.

As for the suggestion that the signings from Scotland caused the current financial situation well that's just laughable. Sorry but it is.

Adi_Dem Posted on 08/12/2011 10:41
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

No we didn't Raz. Lennie won us promotion and it wasn't the cash cow that it became in 94/95/96. That's indisputable.

"you dont finance things on promises that may not happen, you should know that."

That's not even what I'm saying but in any event you should tell that to Leeds.

sasboro1 Posted on 08/12/2011 10:45
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

sorry adi you are wrong, its ok to admit it you are wrongfor a change. they came here for the cash. we were still offering top wages as the club expected to go straight back up under strachan. they club budgetted for that. strachan failed the we had to cut our costs and still are.

Adi_Dem Posted on 08/12/2011 12:22
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

I suppose I should take your lead in terms of admitting when you're wrong, which I've seen you go to great lengths to avoid.

You can repeat it as much as you like but it directly contradicts what the club and its manager said at the time.

Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 08/12/2011 12:29
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

'we were still offering top wages'

[:D]

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 08/12/2011 12:31
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

Scott Macdonald was on around 20k at Celtic... did he take a wage decrease to move to Middlesbrough?

the reports at the time on his wages was that Middlesbrough were prepared to give him a wage increase from what was his current 20k wage package at celtic.

Adi_Dem Posted on 08/12/2011 12:33
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

Where do people get this stuff from?

Pure guesswork!

Senor_Chester Posted on 08/12/2011 12:36
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

"So what, Chester? The point I'm making is that if Southgate had failed to sign Alves then people on this board would have been slaughtering him for THAT"


So he signed him on the basis that if he hadn't, he would have been slaughtered by the fans?

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 08/12/2011 12:36
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

so regarding whether macdonald took a wage increase or decrease would be guess work?

i agree. But the reports suggested a wage increase at the time.

are you stating that the club themselves said Scott Macdonald do not receive an increase in his wages from his move to Middlesbrough FC from Celtic?

ProudToComeFromTeesside Posted on 08/12/2011 12:41
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

To be fair to WGS, his signings would have been financed out of the sale of Johnson. However, as Mogga had to reduce the wage bill when he came in, that suggests that we had gambled with a large wage bill for WGS on the basis of getting promotion. Macdonald will surely have been one of our higher earners but if his wages were too high, then he would have been offloaded in the last year.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 08/12/2011 12:45
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

on that basis i.e. the johnson sale funding players.

Downing was sold in the summer we went down and yet Southgate was given very little to spend.

shows a big contrast in what gibson would allow each manager to spend at that point.

ProudToComeFromTeesside Posted on 08/12/2011 12:57
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

Razmond, that still suggests that the club had to raise further money over and above what was raised the previous summer, assuming that WGS wasn't given all of the Johnson money to spend. We did gamble the following summer on stretching ourselves to the limit financially to bring in the players WGS wanted that were supposed to bring us promotion.

grantus Posted on 08/12/2011 13:19
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

Adi, are you Keith Lamb?

If not then can you give some evidence to support any of these statements that you keep coming out with as fact?

Seems everything you say is 100% fact in your book, yet you question everyone else. I know that I don't make up what I say, I get it from reputable sources such or interviews, or maybe not so reputable, such as the press, yet everything you say is completely correct, according to you.

So why won't you ever back up your claims and put the debates to bed?

Your reluctance to provide any evidence does you no favours mate, I would hate to think you are just a know-it-all with a superiority complex, that doesn't actually know any better than the rest.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 08/12/2011 13:21
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

yes adi please provide some evidence [^]

Adi_Dem Posted on 08/12/2011 14:25
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

Evidence of what exactly? The wage spend year on year? That's in the accounts. The earnings of the Scottish contingent? Strachan said so. The fact that transfer fees are not determinant of success but wages are? Just read the books on the subject. That Strachan had to cut the wage bill? He said so.

What else do you want to know?

Raz, I suggest you give a bit more thought to your Downing point because it doesn't prove what you say it does. Give it some more thought.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 08/12/2011 14:28
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

'Strachan said so'

what did strachan say about Macdonalds wages?

Adi_Dem Posted on 08/12/2011 14:29
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

Dunno Raz, why don't you check.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 08/12/2011 14:31
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

what did strachan say that you are able to class as evidence then?

Borocelt Posted on 08/12/2011 14:31
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

Southgate is bottom of the pile, McClaren top. The rest open to interpretation.

rob_fmttm Posted on 08/12/2011 16:05
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

I don't recall hearing of any manager going in to see the Board at the club and saying I've lost the dressing room, I can't manage anymore. Within one year of taking over. And a vastly experienced player and manager.

Worst manager ever has to be Gordon Strachan.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 08/12/2011 16:08
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

agreed rob, you seem to know what you are talking about. [^]

captain5 Posted on 08/12/2011 16:12
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

You missed off the bit where he volunteered to go without taking a further penny.

Unlike the bloke before who'd probably had 15 million out of us over the years.

But that's the difference between being a lovely nice bloke and a nasty horrid ginger, I guess.

Even if you thought Strachan the worst you would at least concede that he would be above Southgate in the list purely on the basis he didn't have as much time to do as much damage.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 08/12/2011 16:15
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

but in his short time at the club he nearly relegated us further.

but well done to him for not being here very long.

best manager is John Pickering!

sasboro1 Posted on 08/12/2011 16:18
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

"Worst manager ever has to be Gordon Strachan."

its pretty unusual for rob to be critical of any one at mfc past or present

"Even if you thought Strachan the worst you would at least concede that he would be above Southgate in the list purely on the basis he didn't have as much time to do as much damage."

if southgate had been in the job as long as strachan he would have left us 1 place higher than when he took the job. dread to think the mess we would have been in if strachan had lasted 3 years. down in league one by then. he would have got us there end of his first full season

Edwin Posted on 08/12/2011 16:34
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

So Rob, its Strachan because he had lost the dressing room and couldn't manage? True, not many admit that - but thats purely down to others wanting to screw the club for more wedge, even though they know they are doing a crap job, not their excellent ability and belief they'll turn things around.

rob_fmttm Posted on 08/12/2011 16:42
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

Oh no Strachan had absolute belief in what he was doing - filled the positions with his own (yes) men. Alienated large numbers of the squad. Moved in half a team from Scotland on inflated wages. Started saying/making critical comments about the Academy - how dangerous could that have been? He made critical comments about almost everyone, including players in public. Given another 6 months the club could have been almost destroyed. As it is he left Mowbray a mountain to climb. A mountain that wasn't there when Southgate was axed.

I'm not sure how he could have asked for money anyway, he resigned. He admitted he couldn't go on. What grounds would he have had for a settlement considering he made all the mistakes and he was asking to be released from his contract. Steve Gibson was a real gentleman in giving him this final legacy. I'm not sure he deserved it - he was dragging the club down and threatening to destroy its future.

grantus Posted on 08/12/2011 16:46
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

Adi, so your sources are no more reliable than mine then. I thought as much.

I stand by what I say then.

sasboro1 Posted on 08/12/2011 16:46
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

well said rob, its not often you are so critical of someone connected with mfc.

sometimes a manager just doesnt fit in and i think it was our turn with strachan

Edwin Posted on 08/12/2011 16:46
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

Didn't like him eh?

How can he have total belief but then say he can't manage the side anymore? Point is, he could have sat and sat & be sacked, like most. He'ld get his pay off then - its not dependant on how crap you are, simply on whats left on your contract.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 08/12/2011 16:48
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

strachan as a manager was terrible, how he left matters not, his management skills found out.

grantus Posted on 08/12/2011 16:48
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

I'll always remember Strachan sucking on his candy after the Leeds debacle, still being gruff and dismissive to the interviewer, going on like it didn't matter in the slightest.

What an arse.

bryan_munich Posted on 08/12/2011 16:49
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

Steve Gibson was a real gentleman in giving him this final legacy.
________
This seems to be Steve's Achilles Heel: he also gave Southgate too much time.

rob_fmttm Posted on 08/12/2011 16:54
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

I wasn't talking about time - I was talking about making the statement that Strachan walked without taking any money. That has saved Gordon's reputation and means he will probably be employable again too.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 08/12/2011 16:54
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

i agree about southgate sacking, if steve had real issues with southgate as our manager he should have sacked him in the summer, and not wait until a couple of bad results arrived. It clearly put added pressure on southgate and the team and changing manager mid season ruined that season for us.

sasboro1 Posted on 08/12/2011 16:58
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

the tanks was empty, strachan had spent it all. he was too embarrased to try it on to get cash out of boro. he wouldnt want attention drawn to the fact he failed miserably.

i laughed when he was on football focus and when they had the table up they asked him about southampton but despite us being 3rd never asked him about how boro are doing. i expect he will want it wiped from his CV without any fuss

Adi_Dem Posted on 08/12/2011 17:18
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

I didn't say he had said a word about Macdonalds wages Raz. Try again.

Sas - I don't follow your final paragraph in which you say that Southgate would have left us one place higher. Am I missing something there? Genuine question, I don't get the point you're making.

I reiterate - noone is defending Strachan here.

sasboro1 Posted on 08/12/2011 17:22
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

"Sas - I don't follow your final paragraph in which you say that Southgate would have left us one place higher. Am I missing something there? Genuine question, I don't get the point you're making."

refers to what captain5 said, had southgate left us after 12 months repalcing smac like strachan replacing southgate we would have been one place higher up the league. . took the 3rd full season for things to change with southgate. 12 months with strachan we were already looking towards struggling to stay up. had he had the full season we would have gone down. we had gone from promotion hopefulls to relegation candidates in 12 months

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 08/12/2011 17:22
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

'The earnings of the Scottish contingent? Strachan said so'

i was more just after what strachan said exactly that you think qualifies as evidence.

I used Macdonald as an example, but any of the scottish contingent will do.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 08/12/2011 17:23
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

sas even i understood what you meant

Adi_Dem Posted on 08/12/2011 18:28
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

"Even I...."

Ha ha nice one Raz!

Sas, there are some significant differences. Firstly, Southgate had the benefit of the majority of Smacs players for longer so it took longer for him to work his magic. Strachan didn't have Huth, Tuncay or Johnson for long or at all. That's a big difference.

Secondly, that assumes, based on a very small number of games, that the position Southgate left us in was 'real'. We were actually as close to mid-table as we were the top with serious and obvious signs that the wheels were coming off.

If your argument is that Strachan is worse because he did damage quicker, I'd counter by saying that at least he recognised it and left much sooner than Gate and without any compensation.

As I've already said it's a tight choice and you'll find arguments either way.

Raz - it's dead simple, Strachan said that the players brought in from Scotland weren't on big money. Simple as that.

boro74 Posted on 08/12/2011 18:45
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

"I don't recall hearing of any manager going in to see the Board at the club and saying I've lost the dressing room, I can't manage anymore. Within one year of taking over. And a vastly experienced player and manager.

Worst manager ever has to be Gordon Strachan."

If this had been the first post on this thread we wouldn't have needed the other 220.

People are entitled to their opinions about Gareth Southgate. But I cannot grasp anybody saying that he was worse than Strachan.

By the way, McDonald was on on more than 20000 a week when he joined us from Celtic. I know that. You either believe me or you don't.

grantus Posted on 08/12/2011 18:48
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

Gibson would disagree with you and Strachan, Adi.

Gibson said: “We have been the best resourced club in the Championship this season by a long, long way. There is nothing wrong with the finances of the club.

“What we do have is a huge wage bill and that’s something we are dealing with.

“Until the arrival of Tony Mowbray we were not getting a return on the pitch from the wage bill.

“But our wage bill is unsustainable at any level.

“Our wage bill is bigger than the combined wage bills of the top two clubs in this league.


Link: But you carry on

Adi_Dem Posted on 08/12/2011 18:51
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

Yes grantus and now it's evident that we've achieved that aim of reducing our wage bill and guess what? With the exception of boyd (who I've already identified) the rest of the players from Scotland are still here. Thanks, you've just confirmed quite elegantly the point I was making.

grantus Posted on 08/12/2011 18:53
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

Or one might look at it from the non Adi is always right angle

"Strachan said that the players brought in from Scotland weren't on big money. Simple as that."

Wrong

Adi_Dem Posted on 08/12/2011 19:00
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

I'm not always right grantus. I've admitted ive been wrong on this forum many a time. Thing is I am definitely not wrong about this. Yes, I've given opinions that people can an will disagree with. No problem. However, the factual stuff isn't open to debate. Sorry.

If you're saying he didn't say that it's pointless continuing because he most certainly did.

Edwin Posted on 08/12/2011 19:05
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

As Adi says, other than Boyd, the other SPL signings remain. Digard surely was the biggest drain on the club, it took 3 years to get shot, Mido followed the same path. Removing other PL wage earners in Taylor & Lita, then (foolishly in my opinion) taking Arca back on drastically reduced wedge was where Mogga has saved his cash.


grantus Posted on 08/12/2011 19:12
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

I'm not saying that you don't believe he said, you obviously do. He may even have said it, I'm not disputing that. But the reality is that relative to the division, he was given shed loads of money to spend and you are alleging that the scottish lads came in on a budget, which I doubt very much.

Adi_Dem Posted on 08/12/2011 19:18
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

I'm not alleging anything at all. I'm answering a specific point. I have never disagreed that we are one of the best financed clubs in the division. Never sought to argue otherwise. We still are today, though clearly we have reduced costs substantially. What I am arguing against is the notion that we are paying Premier League wages to these players or that they came in to pick up huge contracts, a point made by sas I think. That bit is entirely inaccurate. We have now set a wage budget with which the chairman is happy and within which the Scottish players fit.

My point was simple - the Scottish players, contrary to popular belief, are not on big contracts in the context of the clubs budget and in contrast to the type of contracts we've offered historically.

grantus Posted on 08/12/2011 19:22
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

Ok, well - it's been a rambling yarn of a debate.

You still think Southgate was worse than Strachan no doubt, just as I still think Strachan was worse than Southgate.

Either way, it's been fun.

[^]

Adi_Dem Posted on 08/12/2011 19:28
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

Yep fair enough. I'm sure we could stretch it out until Christmas, just wanted to show you where I was coming from - I don't think I'm always right but, like you, I have conviction in my opinion and will defend it until persuaded otherwise and there is genuinely merit in both sides of the debate, which I do see.

juninhosdivingheader Posted on 08/12/2011 20:16
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

It beats me how anyone can defend Strachan "because his signings are now coming good".

Robson - fair enough, good signing
McDonald - is he good enough? not at £3.5m
McManus - now in and out of the team
Thomson - never fit
Bailey - only come good since Mowbray converted him to defensive midfielder
Halliday - one good game
Kink - not good enough

And... he was prepared to let Emnes and Bennett go for peanuts.

intheplasma Posted on 08/12/2011 20:44
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

RAICH CARTER! bar none.

Edwin Posted on 08/12/2011 20:46
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

Big Mal had a mare too. Maybe we've been a little short sighted narrowing it down to the 2 GS'?

Senor_Chester Posted on 08/12/2011 21:31
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

"I don't recall hearing of any manager going in to see the Board at the club and saying I've lost the dressing room, I can't manage anymore. Within one year of taking over. And a vastly experienced player and manager."

That surely doesn't make a difference one way or the other to the debate??

redlips Posted on 09/12/2011 08:34
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

Rob, I guess is in the know at the club, and knows most of the players, so for him to say something like the Gordon Strachan must have been bad.

Bruce Rioch because he assaulted players when we lost and back to back promotions makes him top. Plus he went to Arsenal, if he made a good job if he would have been at the Highbury for years.

Dennis Bergkamp, best striker ever to play for Arsenal

JimmyFloydPiggybank Posted on 09/12/2011 11:14
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

Rioch if he had a good start to his Arsenal career he would have been in that job for years, like Graham, Wenger etc

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 09/12/2011 22:44
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

macdonald was on 20k at celtic. so will have been on at least that here. That may have fit into our budget but still is a high wage for a championship player.

offside-again Posted on 10/12/2011 05:41
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

Rioch is amazingly overrated imo, he is a 7/10 gaffer in my eyes and was just lucky to have got a good crop of young players at the right time. We were garbage in his last season.

UAUA Posted on 10/12/2011 07:25
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

After saying that he was going to "leave it now " Sas has gone on to post a few dozen extra repetitive posts!

Adi_Dem Posted on 10/12/2011 09:50
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

I think that people believe that if it's in the paper it's true!

Jonny_Ingbar Posted on 10/12/2011 10:00
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

"macdonald was on 20k at celtic. so will have been on at least that here. That may have fit into our budget but still is a high wage for a championship player."

I was told by someone who I'm certain would know, that MacDonald is on £27k p/w and Boyd was on £30k.

Adi_Dem Posted on 10/12/2011 10:03
Worst ever manger to manage the Boro

We've been here before jonny but those figures are incorrect. I'm not being clever here, I just know that in terms of basic salary those figures are out.

Boyd was on more and Macdonald is on less.

We won't agree though so I suggest we leave it at that.