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McGonagall Posted on 03/11/2011 19:30
Are there any practising religionists on here?

The frequent threads about religion usually attract a healthy and informed response but, I wonder, just how many posters actually participate.

johnsmithsno2 Posted on 03/11/2011 22:06
Are there any practising religionists on here?

Me. You?

HarryVegas Posted on 03/11/2011 22:07
Are there any practising religionists on here?

Not me. Too busy predicting a ton [8D]

ron_manager Posted on 03/11/2011 22:11
Are there any practising religionists on here?

No, I only go in churches/cathedrals as a tourist or for weddings etc.

I started to doubt my catholic heritage and faith when I was about 8.
I clearly rememeber going to Grove Hill library with my school and finding a book about evolution. The image that really stuck with me was that of our early ancestors transforming into an upright male.

I suppose I became a full on atheist 11 years ago. I have never prayed since or been tempted to. I have had no urge to believe in something mystical as an answer to life and especially humanity. Discovering the real world through science and observation is far more appealing.

NedKat Posted on 03/11/2011 22:13
Are there any practising religionists on here?

Catholic Church used to be right giggle, but I soon found out it's all about the money ...

Protestant Church was boring, old, and repetative, and it still is ...

I went to a Hindu Temple last month, to see the Holy Man who'd come from India to spread the word. Good music, loads of laughs, some bugger even let rip with a huge fart halfway thru Baba G's speech and I was the only one who laughed !! The scran afterwards was magnificent !!

bigrichardthe3rd Posted on 03/11/2011 22:14
Are there any practising religionists on here?

yes i pray every day,,,,,,,,that my gg,s come in[:o)]

two_banks_of_four Posted on 03/11/2011 22:15
Are there any practising religionists on here?

'attract a healthy and informed response'

healthy yes, but informed they are certainly not.

HarryVegas Posted on 03/11/2011 22:19
Are there any practising religionists on here?

informed they are certainly not.

Bit of a generalisation there surely? All human life is here, educated and ignorant, informed and misinformed. Just like a congregation really...

McGonagall Posted on 03/11/2011 22:20
Are there any practising religionists on here?

tbof, I think you're being a bit bitchy. I think the debates on here, apart from those involving PP or LL, are illuminating.

dooderooni Posted on 03/11/2011 22:22
Are there any practising religionists on here?

I'm an agnostic but the balance between belief and atheism is such that the balance shall tip in the favour of atheism, like a big fat fu©king retarded fu©king black girl on a see-saw opposite... a dwarf.

































It's a modified movie quote before anyone accuses me of being racist, against those with mental health issues or sizist [:D]

ron_manager Posted on 03/11/2011 22:25
Are there any practising religionists on here?

I'm actually starting to mellow toward religion. I don't mean I think it's good, I am just stopping banging on about all the holes, faults etc etc their are.


I am a recovering fundamentalist.

NedKat Posted on 03/11/2011 22:27
Are there any practising religionists on here?

The people who seem to believe everything written in the Bible is gospel ([?]) .. amuse the hell out of me. It's a book of stories embellished by wine induced dit spinning around the camp fire.

HarryVegas Posted on 03/11/2011 22:28
Are there any practising religionists on here?

Organised religions are based on too many obvious lies to take seriously [V] My own non-beliefs have hardened as I've got older and closer to death [:I][;)]

monkeyman Posted on 03/11/2011 22:30
Are there any practising religionists on here?

Ned, if you were trying to do a confused spider, it looks like this: (([?]))

Good try though [^][:D]

dooderooni Posted on 03/11/2011 22:31
Are there any practising religionists on here?

There is a lot of stuff in religious texts that can help people to lead a good and moral life. If it was just passed off as being good advice then I don't think many people would have a problem with it.

The real issues come when these parables and stories are used to control and manipulate people and cause friction with others.

NedKat Posted on 03/11/2011 22:31
Are there any practising religionists on here?

Sorry Monkeyman, thanks for the update though ...

monkeyman Posted on 03/11/2011 22:34
Are there any practising religionists on here?

No need to be sorry boss [ref]

GillZean Posted on 03/11/2011 22:37
Are there any practising religionists on here?

dood[^]

NedKat Posted on 03/11/2011 22:41
Are there any practising religionists on here?

Well spoken Dood ... Yer right, there's some very good advice in religious text to allow anyone to follow a decent path.

ron_manager Posted on 03/11/2011 22:44
Are there any practising religionists on here?

Dood there is also alot of stuff in religous text that is wring, imoral and bad. People pick and choose depending on the prevailing culture. You could take another epic book like Lord of the Rings and find equally good morals to teach your children along with bad.

HarryVegas Posted on 03/11/2011 22:47
Are there any practising religionists on here?

Some helpful hints to a good life


Link: here

NedKat Posted on 03/11/2011 22:49
Are there any practising religionists on here?

Bugger me, Harry !! That sort of brings it into perspective !

dooderooni Posted on 03/11/2011 22:56
Are there any practising religionists on here?

That's the point though ron. There is good and bad in everyone and the roads we take on our journey through life can be vastly different.

If we take the time to experience life and try to understand that which is unknown to us then we are better able, I think, to take the good from the bad.

It's when we have a fear of the unknown and don't expand our knowledge that the bad or immoral parts of religion are able to be used to manipulate us.

The fear of the unknown is simply fear itself once you take away the unknown and replace it with understanding.

ron_manager Posted on 03/11/2011 22:59
Are there any practising religionists on here?

Its like you said though a lot of people take it as fact and no matter what you say they will never question and rely always on the old chestnut of "faith"

NedKat Posted on 03/11/2011 22:59
Are there any practising religionists on here?

Dooderooni's in a thoughtful mode tonight ...

Tom_Fun Posted on 03/11/2011 23:01
Are there any practising religionists on here?

Not me. Raised as a catholic but hover somewhere between agnosticism and atheism.

GillZean Posted on 03/11/2011 23:01
Are there any practising religionists on here?

ron[^]

dooderooni Posted on 03/11/2011 23:04
Are there any practising religionists on here?

My faith is in human nature and despite it being tested on a regular basis I'm not prepared to give up on it just yet.

I've been lucky enough to see a good proportion of this world and the people in it and I think that is one of the reasons I can retain my outlook on life and be open to new things and experiences.

I suppose, in a way, this is my personal "religion".

SGATE_NOSE_BEST Posted on 03/11/2011 23:08
Are there any practising religionists on here?

yes i am a prasctising christian, i go to church occassionally, most importantly i do read from the bible, hear are some verses to the faithless.

Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder!

But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

kazza Posted on 03/11/2011 23:12
Are there any practising religionists on here?

just wasted about 3 minutes reading this thread what a load of bull

NedKat Posted on 03/11/2011 23:15
Are there any practising religionists on here?

[:D]

HolgateCorner Posted on 03/11/2011 23:18
Are there any practising religionists on here?

dooderooni has made some good points[^]

I think it is too easy to be cynical about religion and say it has caused too many wars, or too much child abuse or doesn't stand up against the theory of evolution etc.

But there are many, many people who observe religious lives and as a result try to help society and people in general who you never hear about.

As with all writings and texts the bible and koran or whatever are open to interpretation but their general good intention cannot be mistaken.

In a recent survey 70% of people in this country described themselves as Christians which should give some indication of levels of faith in our society (not to be confused with attending church).

GillZean Posted on 03/11/2011 23:21
Are there any practising religionists on here?

say it has caused too many wars, or too much child abuse

How much is too much?[xx(][DFS][?]

king_hellfire Posted on 04/11/2011 02:43
Are there any practising religionists on here?

'But there are many, many people who observe religious lives and as a result try to help society and people in general who you never hear about.'






That should have nothing to do with being religious though.

Are you suggesting that those people wouldn't try to help society if they didn't live religious lives?

You'd have to question people's motives if they only do good deeds purely on the basis that the Bible said they should.

NedKat Posted on 04/11/2011 02:54
Are there any practising religionists on here?

Whatever religion is, it does spread a certain message. Do the right thing, sort of message .. Doesn't really matter what religion it is, they all seem to convey the same discipline.

stan007 Posted on 04/11/2011 03:15
Are there any practising religionists on here?

there are okay good churces here in brazil neither protestant or catholic...like baptist churches however most still have that hierachy that is a total contradiction to religious idea.. some people get this idea of to be religious or 'practising' you need to attend church... i know many religious people who pray etc... but find no need to attend church temple or mosque...

stan007 Posted on 04/11/2011 03:18
Are there any practising religionists on here?

it is very easy to dismiss religion... and seems very cool to do so these days.. some people have such a strong faith in nothing that it itself is just as strong and vile as a religious extremist...

having said that thought I would give readign the bible a whirl and find it really difficult to get into!

NedKat Posted on 04/11/2011 03:22
Are there any practising religionists on here?

yup ... any jobs down there ?

JonMc Posted on 04/11/2011 08:11
Are there any practising religionists on here?

Not religious myself but I was raised in a progressive catholic environment so I have seen first hand the positives that having faith can bring people.

I also believe that organised religion could be a strong force for good in this world but until they stop protecting their institutions to the debtrament of basic rights and wrongs they'll always miss the boat.

I'm agnostic/ignostic. Live and let live.

peterkay Posted on 04/11/2011 08:14
Are there any practising religionists on here?

yes every sunday[^]

neworder Posted on 04/11/2011 08:49
Are there any practising religionists on here?

Im an aspiring Pagan, grip of brit ekland style in the wicker man.[:D]

B-MAN Posted on 04/11/2011 08:54
Are there any practising religionists on here?

Hows dooderooni got away with that?? movie quote or not, its not exactly in good taste is it?

ItalianJob Posted on 04/11/2011 08:59
Are there any practising religionists on here?

When my children are old enough to ask me about God/religion I'm just going to tell them that it's all nonsense. I've not had religion in my life at all, and I don't see how or why it would make my life any better.

What they believe after that is up to them.


HarryVegas Posted on 04/11/2011 09:05
Are there any practising religionists on here?

I never really spoke to my kids about religion, they made their own minds up. I've always just believed in being nice to people and not judge others. I never had them christened, as I felt it would be hypocritical, given my own lack of belief. They are both grown up now and are both atheist and lovely young people with it [^][smi]

BigCasino Posted on 04/11/2011 09:22
Are there any practising religionists on here?

In past threads the only believer has ever been SouthgatesNose. Everyone else has been adamant non believers who strangely think their view in the minority view when in actual fact the vast majority of the population don't follow a religion or whatever.

oooooo Posted on 04/11/2011 09:42
Are there any practising religionists on here?

"some people have such a strong faith in nothing that it itself is just as strong and vile as a religious extremist"

A faith in nothing? Why do people assume that people who don't believe in a fake god have some sort of empty existence? Nothing sharpens the focus on how precious your life is when you accept there is no safety net in the after-life.

kernaghanscodpiece Posted on 04/11/2011 09:52
Are there any practising religionists on here?

"Are you suggesting that those people wouldn't try to help society if they didn't live religious lives?

You'd have to question people's motives if they only do good deeds purely on the basis that the Bible said they should."


I think the idea is that people are inspired by their faith & spirituality to do kind, loving and charitable deeds.

ItalianJob Posted on 04/11/2011 09:56
Are there any practising religionists on here?

Religion doesn't come in to charitable deeds etc...

It's called being a good person.

And I believe I am one of those.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 04/11/2011 09:59
Are there any practising religionists on here?

religion is a heavy part of my life as it should be of everyones.

Ringo recently said that he would love to see Peace across the world, thats what religions aim should be.

Peace Out V

kernaghanscodpiece Posted on 04/11/2011 10:02
Are there any practising religionists on here?

Many people are inspired to do Chartable deeds by their faith. Thats not to say that you can't be a 'good person' or do kind things if you are an atheist.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 04/11/2011 10:03
Are there any practising religionists on here?

an atheist = negativity

zaphod Posted on 04/11/2011 10:12
Are there any practising religionists on here?

Most of the people who post on here are young males. The default position for young males in British society is atheism/agnosticism, which is why this board is generally anti-religious.

Outside the Catholic church, congregations in the UK are starting to increase, especially in Baptist & Pentecostal churches. Church-goers tend to be better-educated than average, in contradiction of the frequently expressed opinion on here that Christians are stupid. These days, you have to be willing to think for yourself to become a committed Christian, instead of just accepting the default position.

I'm an Anglican, though I was brought up a Methodist, and attend church every week.

However, I strongly believe that no-one's beliefs will ever be changed by discussion on message boards.

ItalianJob Posted on 04/11/2011 10:22
Are there any practising religionists on here?

an atheist = negativity

What's that supposed to mean???

Religion will not bring peace to the world either.

oooooo Posted on 04/11/2011 10:32
Are there any practising religionists on here?

"Church-goers tend to be better-educated than average, in contradiction of the frequently expressed opinion on here that Christians are stupid."

Saying church goers are better educated than average is skewing your point. They are also higher earners. They are also older.

There is a correlation between people's education level in society (and not just amongst church goers) and that correlation is that the more educated someone is, the less likely they are to be religious.

zaphod Posted on 04/11/2011 10:34
Are there any practising religionists on here?

If that's what you believe, oooooo, you clearly haven't been into any churches recently.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 04/11/2011 10:35
Are there any practising religionists on here?

its a fair mix of people in our church.

oooooo Posted on 04/11/2011 10:39
Are there any practising religionists on here?

Why? Would I be bowled over by the intelligence on display? Do you pop around, handing out brain teasers?

Anyway, how about some hard data from a professor of psychology at the University of Ulster?






Link: iq goes up and belief goes down

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 04/11/2011 10:42
Are there any practising religionists on here?

ooooo and you consider that link to be reliable ?

zaphod Posted on 04/11/2011 10:46
Are there any practising religionists on here?

Hilarious, oooooo.

oooooo Posted on 04/11/2011 10:49
Are there any practising religionists on here?

A link to data sourced from a peer reviewed study published in a world-class journal? I think so. I'll take it over "come and walk around my church and see how clever people are"

Can I just point out that I wasn't the one who made an unfounded claim that religious people are cleverer than non-religious people although I have provided actual factual information rather than opinion.


Link: link

oooooo Posted on 04/11/2011 10:51
Are there any practising religionists on here?

Zaphod, that's a really childish response. You shouldn't throw slurs like the one you did above with little more than your ego as evidence.

zaphod Posted on 04/11/2011 10:52
Are there any practising religionists on here?

White adolescent American males? That's supposed to have some relevance?

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 04/11/2011 10:52
Are there any practising religionists on here?

oooooo its just because within the link even wiki advised that it isnt not reliable as it has not been authenticated yet.

Miklaadt Posted on 04/11/2011 10:55
Are there any practising religionists on here?

Don't knock it. If we didn't have religion, we wouldn't be able to enjoy pope burning tomorrow night.

zaphod Posted on 04/11/2011 10:56
Are there any practising religionists on here?

oooooo, you put up a completely rubbish link & expect me to take it seriously? I thought it was the kindest response I could make.

oooooo Posted on 04/11/2011 10:57
Are there any practising religionists on here?

Raz, you need to go back to reading school because it doesn't say that.

Zaphod, does your theory only apply to white middle-aged English people? And here's me thinking religion was a universal thing.

I'd like to think my one example of data found in 2 minutes of web searching beats your "no data, no proof, no clue" approach.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 04/11/2011 11:00
Are there any practising religionists on here?

'This file was moved to Wikimedia Commons from en.wikipedia using a bot script. All source information is still present. It requires review. Additionally, there may be errors in any or all of the information fields; information on this file should not be considered reliable and the file should not be used until it has been reviewed and any needed corrections have been made. Once the review has been completed, this template should be removed.'

oooooo Posted on 04/11/2011 11:01
Are there any practising religionists on here?

Zaphod, feel free to post up as many links of peer-reviewed statistical analysis supporting your claim as you like.

Or the rest of us can just concluded that your assertion that people who are religious are clever is complete and utter fiction.

Let's pick apart your sources and evidence, eh? I can't see any.

oooooo Posted on 04/11/2011 11:04
Are there any practising religionists on here?

Raz, that is referring to the article as it is displayed on wikipedia which is why I linked direct to the paper itself, which contains the data as presented in the graph.

Blimey, I wonder if I can submit the responses from you two as further supporting evidence that the more religious you are, the dumber you come. [:D][^]

zaphod Posted on 04/11/2011 11:06
Are there any practising religionists on here?

oooooo, I was talking about the UK. In the US, the religious culture is completely different, with the default being church attendance. Like in Britain 100 years ago, people who vary from the norm will tend to be better educated.

I looked up the wikipedia article you got that graph from. It's really not very relevant to the UK.

kernaghanscodpiece Posted on 04/11/2011 11:08
Are there any practising religionists on here?

Ramond/Zaphod

You are not really presenting yourselves as enlightened spiritual beings with all this petty bickering. [V]

oooooo Posted on 04/11/2011 11:11
Are there any practising religionists on here?

I don't see how the default culture of the US changes the correlation. Anyway, your opinion is not enough to sway anyone without anything to back it up. Let's be honest here, you made it up.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 04/11/2011 11:12
Are there any practising religionists on here?

In Australia, 23% of Christian church attenders have earned a university or postgraduate degree, whereas the figure for the general population is 13%

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 04/11/2011 11:29
Are there any practising religionists on here?

do you agree that it is settled that, it is evolutionarily familiar and natural to believe in God, and evolutionarily novel not to be religious?

oooooo Posted on 04/11/2011 11:57
Are there any practising religionists on here?

I think I'd need to see proper statistics on how religious people are vs their level of intelligence rather than pick 'people who attend church' and 'people who have a degree' as the lines that throw you immediately from one camp to another.

As for your second post, it doesn't matter.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 04/11/2011 12:04
Are there any practising religionists on here?

so your intelligence test in your eyes has nothing to do with a belief in a god?

oooooo Posted on 04/11/2011 12:10
Are there any practising religionists on here?

That doesn't make any sense, try again.

Meanwhile, based on data from "IQ and the Wealth of Nations by Richard Lynn and Tatu Vanhanen" and "Pew Global Attitudes Project", it turns out that America ISN'T that much of a special case as there is a global correlation between mean IQ levels and people's attitude to how important religion is in their lives.


Link: boring old facts

two_banks_of_four Posted on 04/11/2011 12:10
Are there any practising religionists on here?

QED, think my original comment has been largely justified.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 04/11/2011 12:14
Are there any practising religionists on here?

in your opinion do you think low intelligence higher for people who believe in a religious God?

oooooo Posted on 04/11/2011 12:30
Are there any practising religionists on here?

"low intelligence higher"

WTF?

JonMc Posted on 04/11/2011 12:34
Are there any practising religionists on here?

oooooo. Don't be obtuse fella, you know what he's trying to ask.

Intelligence will be more closely linked to socio-economic factors rather than any adherence to religious belief.


oooooo Posted on 04/11/2011 12:38
Are there any practising religionists on here?

I don't get why he is asking me if I think better educated people are less likely to be religious. That's exactly what I've been saying and my supporting evidence seems to prove it.

I'm not saying being religious makes you stupid or being an atheist makes you clever, I'm saying being clever makes you less likely to be taken in by religion and being stupid makes you more likely to.

Of course socio-economic factors drive levels of education and that in turn drives your susceptibility to religious believe, myth and other superstition.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 04/11/2011 12:41
Are there any practising religionists on here?

'I'm saying being clever makes you less likely to be taken in by religion '

are you saying then that being clever allows you to believe in evolution whilst also beliving in a religious god?


oooooo Posted on 04/11/2011 12:46
Are there any practising religionists on here?

Why do you keep trying to twist things people say into arguments they never even entered into?

Anyone who 'believes' in evolution AND a religious god doesn't understand evolution.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 04/11/2011 12:54
Are there any practising religionists on here?

well that was the pointed i raised here -

'do you agree that it is settled that, it is evolutionarily familiar and natural to believe in God, and evolutionarily novel not to be religious?'

and you stated that it did not matter.

but it has been agreed upon that people of a high intelligence can believe in a god whilst also agreeing to evolution.

you make things black or white and that clearly isnt true.

my above comment i speech marked was a direct quote from a well documented study called Is atheism linked to intelligence?

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 04/11/2011 12:57
Are there any practising religionists on here?

'Anyone who 'believes' in evolution AND a religious god doesn't understand evolution.'

what we dont understand in relation to evolution is called 'theory'

oooooo Posted on 04/11/2011 12:57
Are there any practising religionists on here?

I wish we were discussing evolution as that might have been a relevant point. Therefore it doesn't really matter. you are arguing a point that I'm not even raising.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 04/11/2011 13:02
Are there any practising religionists on here?

no i was pointing out that it isnt as simple as saying people either believe in religion or they do not.

It is well documented that people believe in evolution but also believe in the idea of a god, without the religious context.

north_east_invader Posted on 04/11/2011 13:04
Are there any practising religionists on here?

"an atheist = negativity"

Utter crap.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 04/11/2011 13:06
Are there any practising religionists on here?

have a bit of faith people say.

an atheist does not have that bit of faith which is why they are so negative.

'One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods'

Dibzzz Posted on 04/11/2011 13:10
Are there any practising religionists on here?

It's a waste of time, I've got much more important things to be getting on with instead of talking in my head to a sky fairy whilst I spend my brief moment in time on this planet.

Like posting shyte on here.

JonMc Posted on 04/11/2011 13:17
Are there any practising religionists on here?

I'm saying being clever makes you less likely to be taken in by religion and being stupid makes you more likely to.
Of course socio-economic factors drive levels of education and that in turn drives your susceptibility to religious believe, myth and other superstition.

Sorry but neither of those things wash. My life is surrounded by religious and non religious folk alike and their beliefs (or lack of) bear no resemblence to how intelligent they are. The more we embrace a 21st century technological culture the more we are distracted from old belief systems where I do agree that this can be a positive in that folk get to re-evaluate what is important for them in their lives, I do think that in our haste to embrace the technological trinkets and toys we have payed for it in terms of a loss in spirtuality (rather than religion per se) to our debtrament.

Have you looked at sink estates in which educational achievement is seen as a lower priority? You'd reckon that they would be a breeding ground for the next generation to fill the pews but I don't see many folk around Hendon or Ragworth lining up to take communion on a Sunday.



Anyone who 'believes' in evolution AND a religious god doesn't understand evolution.

Sorry but that is a crass statement and totally untrue as my mate Graham (a bio chemist and devout christian) would cheerfully tell you.

HarryVegas Posted on 04/11/2011 13:20
Are there any practising religionists on here?

Sorry Raz, but saying that all atheists are negative by nature is utter bilge. I am an atheist and if you met me I think you'd find I am very positive by nature.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 04/11/2011 13:23
Are there any practising religionists on here?

if you were positive you would be open to the posibility of a god. It is not proven but neither is no god.

JonMc Posted on 04/11/2011 13:24
Are there any practising religionists on here?

I have to agree with that too Harry.

HarryVegas Posted on 04/11/2011 13:26
Are there any practising religionists on here?

So who is it flinging accusations of negativity around Raz - you or me? [8)] And how is that in itself a positive act?

Dibzzz Posted on 04/11/2011 13:28
Are there any practising religionists on here?

Celestial teapot.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 04/11/2011 13:29
Are there any practising religionists on here?

accusations?

boscosbaldynapper Posted on 04/11/2011 13:30
Are there any practising religionists on here?

hello 1 ton!!

boscosbaldynapper Posted on 04/11/2011 13:31
Are there any practising religionists on here?

XXXXXX,
hello 1 ton

oooooo Posted on 04/11/2011 13:32
Are there any practising religionists on here?

Jon, if you want to make your decisions based on one bloke you know and your social circle then that is ok, it's a form of evidence but it's rather a self-selected group.

As for the sink estates, I agree that they aren't overflowing with church-goers but there is a lot of belief in ghosts, mediums, psychics and other rubbish. My mates wife announced that her 6 month old son was communicating with her dead nana (was saying 'nanananana') and declared that he had the same gift as her. That's just stupidity to jump to that conclusion.


HarryVegas Posted on 04/11/2011 13:32
Are there any practising religionists on here?

Sorry Raz, but I see the signs now. You hoist by your own petard = you trying to argue about semantics forever. Seen it before mate and not getting dragged in to waste my time further. You're talking crap and that's my last contribution to this thread.

neworder Posted on 04/11/2011 13:34
Are there any practising religionists on here?

i really like honest to goodness religious people i can talk to them all day long they are usually decent people who understand the difficulties of life

My problem starts when they start talking about God [:D].
You know the script.... his rules and the concept of hell then this turns into something akin to mind control and abuse.
Personally i will stick with the message of the great text on religion "The Life of Brian"

Work it out yourself.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 04/11/2011 13:34
Are there any practising religionists on here?

ok harry but i never threw accusations your way.

JonMc Posted on 04/11/2011 13:36
Are there any practising religionists on here?

ooooo. You could also say that it was a totally random and unbiased sample.

As far as ghosts and mediums are concerned, their breeding grounds are just as much the offices and civic centres as they are sink estates. In fact more so, I would argue because that's where the most disposible income is to fund it.

north_east_invader Posted on 04/11/2011 13:39
Are there any practising religionists on here?

"if you were positive you would be open to the posibility of a god"

Again, utter crap. Belief or not in God has NOTHING to do with positivity.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 04/11/2011 13:40
Are there any practising religionists on here?

it is negative to say their is no god when infact you have no proof either way.

JonMc Posted on 04/11/2011 13:41
Are there any practising religionists on here?

And I repeat - saying that religious folk do not understand evolution is as crass as saying atheists aren't as moral as religionists.

north_east_invader Posted on 04/11/2011 13:42
Are there any practising religionists on here?

"it is negative to say their is no god when infact you have no proof either way."

No, there is no evidence to support the existence of a god, therefore no logical reason to believe there is a god. Positivity has nothing to do with it.

JonMc Posted on 04/11/2011 13:44
Are there any practising religionists on here?

'it is negative to say their is no god when infact you have no proof either way.'

No more than it is positive to say that you have a belief in God when the burden of proof is identical.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 04/11/2011 13:46
Are there any practising religionists on here?

we have no concrete evidence to support a big bang just a theory based on several other theories.

The point is that we do not know what created the universe or much about the universe itself. To side on a definite 'NO this did not happen' when we do not know either way is a negative conclusion against one side.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 04/11/2011 13:48
Are there any practising religionists on here?

'No more than it is positive to say that you have a belief in God when the burden of proof is identical.'

i agree i am very much on the fence. It is a positive conclusion to the existence of god to say he did for certain exist when we have no proof, just as it is negative to say our right a god did not exist.

oooooo Posted on 04/11/2011 14:01
Are there any practising religionists on here?

"we have no concrete evidence to support a big bang just a theory based on several other theories."

There's massive amounts of concrete evidence that supports the big bang theory.

And Jon, you can repeat it all you want but evolution and a creationist god simply can't both be right. One has enormous amounts of evidence supporting it though so I personally am going to stick with that for now but if someone wishes to believe in an invisible, unprovable thing that never gets involved then that's fine. Pointless, but fine.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 04/11/2011 14:04
Are there any practising religionists on here?

no the big bang is a theory which is based on other theories.

you need to read up on your science before spouting rubbish.

oooooo are you still suggesting that no person should be able to believe in evolution and believe in a god?


JonMc Posted on 04/11/2011 14:06
Are there any practising religionists on here?

But believing in God bears no relation to the belief in a strict creationist beginning. None at all.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 04/11/2011 14:08
Are there any practising religionists on here?

why couldnt a god have created the big bang and the knock of that was evolution?

oooooo Posted on 04/11/2011 14:13
Are there any practising religionists on here?

Jon, if you take away the creationism and interventionism then what have you got left?

You've got an invisible God who doesn't interact with anything and of which there isn't any clue or hint that he exists.

Raz, if you want to believe a God created the universe and then never showed up for the next 13 billion years then fine.

Lefty Posted on 04/11/2011 14:13
Are there any practising religionists on here?

Raz, are you leaning one way or the other on this fence of yours?

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 04/11/2011 14:15
Are there any practising religionists on here?

oooooo are you now saying that you understand that someone can believe in a good whilst also believing in evolution?

Dibzzz Posted on 04/11/2011 14:19
Are there any practising religionists on here?

Rare photograph of God.


Link: Could it be him?

JonMc Posted on 04/11/2011 14:24
Are there any practising religionists on here?

Jon, if you take away the creationism and interventionism then what have you got left?

Probably the simple belief that Jesus was the Son of God and that living by Jesus's teachings is a good idea.
Not every christian believes the Old Testament word for word.

oooooo Posted on 04/11/2011 14:30
Are there any practising religionists on here?

You know what? i can get behind the teachings of Jesus, I wish more Christians would but 'son of god'?

I still say once you have taken away evolution, the creation of the universe, any intervention in the universe for 13 billion years then this concept of a god is about the same as a concept of no god.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 04/11/2011 14:33
Are there any practising religionists on here?

oooooo but you are now suggesting that the concept of a god is now as likely as the concept of no god.

whereas before anyone who thought a god could exist you deemed to be more likely to be stupid.

this is progression :o)

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 04/11/2011 14:36
Are there any practising religionists on here?

i also agree with Jon in the respect that many people take many different elements away from religion without taking all the elements i.e. the practisings of the old testament is not commonly used by many.

the intent of a religion to promote good and peace is what some people take from a religion.

others can manipulate a religion to fuel hate.

JonMc Posted on 04/11/2011 14:45
Are there any practising religionists on here?

A BIG amen to that Raz.

neworder Posted on 04/11/2011 14:55
Are there any practising religionists on here?

Which god we on about here boys?
Muslim, Hindu, Sikh, Animist, Pagan, Greek , Roman, African, Asian old new borrowed or blue.
Oh right its the Christian god.
Catholic, protestant, jehovas witness, born again, orthodox......
I cant work out my mind which one is the best?
Is he (she) angry or kind, does he exist on earth or in the sky, how come hes always angry when he comes from the mouths of the likes of Ian Paisley and how is it that all them TV evangelists say god hates fornication, of all types is he in the rocks, do dogs haver souls. Its hard business this religion crack.
Its a bit like going to tesco`s theres just too much choice.
Perhaps just perhaps the God you like and worship is a little bit like you.

oooooo Posted on 04/11/2011 15:01
Are there any practising religionists on here?

"oooooo but you are now suggesting that the concept of a god is now as likely as the concept of no god."

I never fail to be surprised at how much you can distort what people say on here.

I'm saying the concept of a god who isn't involved in creation, intervention, doesn't answer prayers and never shows up in 13 billion years sounds awfully like the concept of no god at all. It's the equivalent of someone saying "I believe in a god that doesn't exist".


Razmond_HWDR Posted on 04/11/2011 15:03
Are there any practising religionists on here?

you are saying that a god could have started the evolution of the universe prior to the big bang?

is that a possibility in your mind?

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 04/11/2011 15:09
Are there any practising religionists on here?

additionally to add, i originally asked if someone could believe in a god whilst believing in evolution.

And you stated they would not understand evolution if they did both.

But i have never mentioned a god that answers prayers etc. I am simply talking about the possibility of a god right at the start.

Is that not a possibility?

oooooo Posted on 04/11/2011 15:15
Are there any practising religionists on here?

Well you seem to have rmeoved, one by one, all the things that seem to make a god a god. Are you saying that there could be a god who's job and only task has been to create the big bang - none of that talking to humans, answering prayers or setting rules stuff?

A god that flicked the switch to start the big bang but then buggered off and never got involved?

I'd have to say, no I don't think I can believe in even that. It just sounds .... unnecessary.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 04/11/2011 15:18
Are there any practising religionists on here?

'I'd have to say, no I don't think I can believe in even that. It just sounds .... unnecessary.'

I am not asking you if you believe , but more if you think it is possible.

are you suggesting that anything that was about pre this universe would be classed as 'unnecessary'? That is a bold statement, as we are but a spec within this universe and something could easily deem us unnecessary.

oooooo Posted on 04/11/2011 15:31
Are there any practising religionists on here?

Look, some people can't let go of the concept that everything must have been created. I think if you accept the big bang theory but then need to comfort yourself with someone starting that then you haven't really accomplished anything. You might as well say "God made Adam and then made Eve from a rib".

You've created an unnecessary complexity in the universe's creation by throwing in a switch-flicking god.

Do I think it's possible? No. Not in the slightest - it falls down on so many logical levels.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 04/11/2011 15:32
Are there any practising religionists on here?

what is logical about life before the universe and everything we currently know?

oooooo Posted on 04/11/2011 15:38
Are there any practising religionists on here?

Well it isn't a ambivalent shtty father-figure ghost who doesn't give a sht sneaking around and cutting "this universe is open" ribbons, that's for certain.

Basically, by your argument, the universe was as likely created by a God as it was by a glitter speckled dog turd.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 04/11/2011 15:40
Are there any practising religionists on here?

no i am saying to you that we dont know what came before this universe and we also do not know what would be deemed logical and what illogical.

you seem to have 'certain' views on something you have no proof of.

stan007 Posted on 04/11/2011 15:40
Are there any practising religionists on here?

muslims, christians, jews = its the same god...

buddihism - no god...

sikhs and hindus beleive in many gods...

just a thought those here that are criticising the bible... have you ever read it?

would you slag off a film you had never seen or a book you have never read?

I use to dismiss religion like many people here... Im still no great beleiver but have begun to understand the reasons why man people are...

a firm belief in nothing is just the same as a firm belief in something...

i sometimes envy people who have a faith in god they seem to have a greater balance in their life... as I said I tried .. read the bible, thought about it, went to church just didnt do much for me!

oooooo Posted on 04/11/2011 15:49
Are there any practising religionists on here?

"you seem to have 'certain' views on something you have no proof of"

Well given that I have views and evidence dating back for the previous 13 billion years, I think it's a good start.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 04/11/2011 15:52
Are there any practising religionists on here?

but your 'certain' views seem to be able to pre date the creation of the universe.

Like i have said i am talking about the possibility of a god creating the universe, and evolution happening from that.

you chose to say that that would not happen, yet you have NO proof.

you have evidence of evolution which i have never doubted but no evidence for the other part you dismiss.

oooooo Posted on 04/11/2011 16:02
Are there any practising religionists on here?

I'm not dismissing it, just saying that in the absence of evidence either way, I'm going to go with what just seems less likely.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 04/11/2011 16:04
Are there any practising religionists on here?

what evidence do you base your 'less likely' on?

we have no idea what was around before the universe was created but you deem yourself qualified enough to know what was more likely and less likely to be around before this universe, a place which in itself we only know a tiny percentage about.

oooooo Posted on 04/11/2011 16:35
Are there any practising religionists on here?

I just think with 13 billion years of no evidence of god at all, it seems unlikely.

"deem yourself qualified"

If by that you mean, make my own mind up then yeah, I "deem myself qualified"

ron_manager Posted on 04/11/2011 16:37
Are there any practising religionists on here?

So what you are stating Raz is that although science has developed a number of theories that go back to 14 billion years ago you think that before that a god may have created this universe.
This god then through divine intervention has a number of texts written that state the world is 10 000 years old.


Oh what a prankster god he is.

McGonagall Posted on 04/11/2011 17:36
Are there any practising religionists on here?

tbof, surely by now you've changed your mind about such debates on here being uninformed? A breathtaking range of opinions, though relatively few posters have actually nailed their colours to any particular mast. Interestingly, there are no responses from Jewish people. I wonder why this should be?

two_banks_of_four Posted on 04/11/2011 19:17
Are there any practising religionists on here?

Not at all, plenty of opinion yes, very little informed opinion, they are very different.

Or did I miss the discussion of the ontological argument? Or the post with someone agreeing with Kant that proof of God is beyond the limit of human reason.

09_dave_09 Posted on 04/11/2011 19:21
Are there any practising religionists on here?

The thing is with religion why guess just live and find out at the end.

JonMc Posted on 04/11/2011 19:32
Are there any practising religionists on here?

Or the post with someone agreeing with Kant that proof of God is beyond the limit of human reason.


Yup. You missed that one marra. My first post stated I was ignostic and I am so for a reason.

HolgateCorner Posted on 04/11/2011 22:03
Are there any practising religionists on here?

I think one or two posters are too hung up on God versus evolution or the big bang.

You don't have to be particularly religious to realise that the origins of the universe or life on this planet ocupy a few short sentences at the beginning of the Bible. I think it is fairly obvious that the originators of the book of Genesis just did not know, and it is as true today that we just do not know where anything came from and evolution is a far from perfect theory which seems to rely heavily on chance mutations.

Religion is more to do with moral values and codes for human living, and few would argue with the basic values of respecting your fellow human being, not killing, not stealing, etc etc. Avoiding jealousy, greed, wrath, lust etc is all good advice which appears increasingly relevant as you get older.

When you look at the serious problems in our society today such as bankers being greedy, MP's stealing on expenses, consumers racking up debt driven by envy and the desire for belongings, gang crime driven by lack of respect for life and property etc etc then maybe we need religious guidance more than is generally realised by those with too much pride in their high IQs.

Worrying about whether the Bible properly deals with the creation of the planet 5 billion years ago or the evolution of a frog is just missing the point of religion altogether.

ron_manager Posted on 04/11/2011 22:42
Are there any practising religionists on here?

I disagree wholeheartedly Holgate. That is cherry picking bible stories. The bible still is an influencial book that people take to the letter. There are stories in the bible that are disgusting. Many people see these as truths. I ask you to look at the 1000 most powerful men in the world. I would not be suprised to find most of them expressing they followed a religion.

McGonagall Posted on 04/11/2011 23:11
Are there any practising religionists on here?

The key word for me in my original post was "practising" but it has turned into a general philosophical discussion about the existence of God and the nature of religion.
I asked the question because I am shortly going to the christening of some friends' child. I was brought up in a fairly strict Roman Catholic family but would now count myself as a non-militant atheist.
Is the honest response to an invitation to a wedding, christening or whatever in a church to refuse and risk offending people or to swallow one's beliefs and go along with the charade?

ron_manager Posted on 04/11/2011 23:16
Are there any practising religionists on here?

~No you should go to the service. It's not really about the service, religion it's about the people, family friends etc. I have thought the same myself but as my family are also catholic what can you do.

Mc did you used to be militant and have mellowed.

JonMc Posted on 05/11/2011 08:56
Are there any practising religionists on here?

'I disagree wholeheartedly Holgate. That is cherry picking bible stories.'

In which case it's a case of damned if they do and damnif they don't. If religion is to evolve then some cherry picking is necessary, especially christianty which focuses on the NT. Why should all christians be hung up on OT stories of Genesis and Leviticus just because some do believe in them.

If they do cherry pick they are called up on it - if they don't then no doubt you will accuse them of being backward, just as you accused muslims of being backward because of a minor cultural quirk for making women walk behind their men.

HarryVegas Posted on 05/11/2011 09:20
Are there any practising religionists on here?

McG - I have had the same dilemma. I am even a Godparent to a nephew. I basically swallowed my own beliefs because it felt like the right thing to do and it would have upset them more to have refused than it upset me to accept. After all, it's only 40 minutes out of my life. On the very rare occasions I have to go to any kind of service, I just stay quiet while others say words I don't believe. To go along and 'pray' would be hypocritical in the extreme.

ron_manager Posted on 05/11/2011 09:20
Are there any practising religionists on here?

Jon please don't twist my words. I did state/ask that about muslim women. The when I was given an explanation I accepted it.

As for "damned if they do...". The point is if the book is supposed to be the word og God how can you cherry pick stories. I have no problem with moderate religous people. But lets be honest the world is not populated by such moderacy.

JonMc Posted on 05/11/2011 09:54
Are there any practising religionists on here?

Yes. You did state. You didn't ask.

And you did accept afterwards which is fair but this is what I mean about the evolution of religion. SOME christians see the entire bible as the Word of God but the majority do not and instead focus on the man who they believe is the Son of God and the man who is central to their faith - Jesus and his message which was basically one of love...his 11th Commandment.

The world is populated by moderates. Most people of faith just want to get on with their lives and have no problem with folk who have a different view of faith from them. As ever it's the vocal minority who we hear about because that is what makes news and stories about moderate people don't sell papers or advertising space. This summer there was a big push by muslim clerics who held university talk-ins focusing on an anti fundamentalist message and moderation but of course this wasn't widely reported because people 'getting along' isn't worthy of column inches.

How can you ask religious folk not to cherry pick when you do the same regarding moderation?

ron_manager Posted on 05/11/2011 10:06
Are there any practising religionists on here?

I'm not cherry picking.
I've noticed when debating with Jon that you are desperate to disconnect the words of the bible from the people who believe in it. I do not understand this stance. The bible has both good and bad stories but the point is the bible is the word of god for billions of people (fact). Therefore it leaves that book and those people in a postion to be manipulated or controlled. I have no problem with any religous person, my family are catholic, some of my best friends are devout christians etc but that does not mean the book they believe in is fact or that somehow they are more moral than I. I do not need some book to tell me about "love". Love is transient changeable psychological response. If a person finds it in the bible good on them but not for me sir.

As always Jon a pleasure to chat[:X]

Starbuck Posted on 05/11/2011 10:06
Are there any practising religionists on here?

So to sum up..
If you're a practising religionist it's ok because it's your life and your belief
If you're an atheist it's ok because it's your life and your belief

How did this thread get so long ??

ron_manager Posted on 05/11/2011 10:36
Are there any practising religionists on here?

I think starbuck has hit the nail on the head[^]

HarryVegas Posted on 05/11/2011 10:47
Are there any practising religionists on here?

I refer you to the 3rd contribution on this thread....[;)]

miltonkeynesaverage Posted on 05/11/2011 13:35
Are there any practising religionists on here?

Is religion the one with all the bombs?

boromike85 Posted on 05/11/2011 15:10
Are there any practising religionists on here?

Many religious people believe that the 1st chapters of the Bible, the creation of the universe, are false and they all accept that the earth is more than 10,000 years old.

What I don't understand is if they believe the 1st chapter to be made up lies then why do they believe so strongly in the rest of it?

HolgateCorner Posted on 05/11/2011 15:21
Are there any practising religionists on here?

not sure you are right in that statement boromike85, there's a difference between believing something is false and just not knowing.

the earth came from somewhere and a satisfactory explanation has not been put on the table yet by the scientific community, so it has to be up for grabs doesn't it?

oooooo Posted on 05/11/2011 15:39
Are there any practising religionists on here?

"and a satisfactory explanation has not been put on the table"

There's a huge wealth of evidence supporting the big bang plus massive amounts of evidence proving how the galaxies, solar systems and planets were formed. If it wasn't for the scientific work of thousands then our religious leaders wouldn't even know those things existed.

miltonkeynesaverage Posted on 05/11/2011 16:02
Are there any practising religionists on here?

Religious people dont let anything like cold hard facts get the way of their beliefs of an invisible sky fairy

[^]

JonMc Posted on 05/11/2011 16:05
Are there any practising religionists on here?

Indeed oooooo. In between having conversations with God, Emanuel Swedenborg (1688–1772) was hypothesising about the creation of our solar system from nebula. [:P]

McGonagall Posted on 05/11/2011 18:02
Are there any practising religionists on here?

I know a number of people who work, in various capacities, in local schools. They all talk about indiscipline bordering on anarchy,about a complete lack of moral standards, violence and total disregard for the rights and feelings of their fellow-pupils.
I genuinely think that this dreadful state of affairs has come about because what little moral education takes place in our present system takes place under the heading of Religion, a concept which means nothing to the majority of youngsters.
I think we need a National Curriculum of non-sectarian ethical/moral principles where children would be taught to think about their ethical rights/responsibilities without reference to any religion.
Not surprisingly, opposition to such a proposal comes almost exclusively from established religions.

oooooo Posted on 05/11/2011 19:01
Are there any practising religionists on here?

Jon, what a shame he never attempted to gather any evidence for his hypothesis and wasted his remaining years banging on about 'visions'.

JonMc Posted on 05/11/2011 20:12
Are there any practising religionists on here?

But proof nevertheless that religion doesn't neccessarily negate the idea scientific thought, namely that of the formation of solar systems, which I believe was your point. Copernicus, a catholic canon would agree.