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slovak Posted on 19/10/2011 09:30
The Battle for Dale Farm

It's making brilliant TV [^]

Tune in to Sky News [:D]

Muttley Posted on 19/10/2011 09:35
The Battle for Dale Farm

Any scores in yet?

I'm not sure which side to cheer for.

norfolkred1 Posted on 19/10/2011 09:36
The Battle for Dale Farm

Been watching that dozey bint talking about police brutality but not about the bricks and fireworks shot at the police, sounds a bit well to do and looking for a bit of limelight.

TWoS Posted on 19/10/2011 09:37
The Battle for Dale Farm

I'm sure Nicky Campbell was deliberately winding up their guy on the ground this morning. He was surrounded by outraged gypsies, who were loading all their worldly into a van, with a burning caravan in the background and a helicopter thwocking overhead and Campbell's like "Sue in Buckinghamshire says this is a great day for British justice, could you put that point to the people you're talking to?" then later "Could you get that lady to clarify who she just put a curse on?" Laffed I did.

slovak Posted on 19/10/2011 09:43
The Battle for Dale Farm

Two protesters have been tasered. [:D]


captain5 Posted on 19/10/2011 09:45
The Battle for Dale Farm

Shocked but not surprised I would think.

slovak Posted on 19/10/2011 09:48
The Battle for Dale Farm

[:D][:D][:D]

youngson19 Posted on 19/10/2011 09:53
The Battle for Dale Farm

It's about bloody time. The people of Essex's don't want them there and they've broke the law.

I'm watching the wright stuff and the same old bleeding liberal drivil about how the council should of paid for a new site for a new site. Talking about travelers being an ethnic minority, give me a break.

Regards
J


slovak Posted on 19/10/2011 09:58
The Battle for Dale Farm

I've got the Wright Stuff on too. I wonder what they'd want to happen to the 'travellers' if they were camped close to their homes? Kicked them out or find a new plot for them to live nearby?

borobadge Posted on 19/10/2011 09:59
The Battle for Dale Farm

there will only be one winner..

and it wont be the council or the governmemnt..

expect to see all those 'homes' with no planning permission for Conservatories in the 'surreys' of this world to be targetted next !

youngson19 Posted on 19/10/2011 10:08
The Battle for Dale Farm

The wright stuff ticks me off to no end. Nice dose of liberal drivel every day for the sheeple to keep them in line.
[:o)]

Regards
J

GillZean Posted on 19/10/2011 10:12
The Battle for Dale Farm

Not an Irish traveller in sight at the eviction frontline this morning, just the usual swampy crew fighting the fackin' system whilst living off daddy's trust fund.

japsterbor0 Posted on 19/10/2011 10:17
The Battle for Dale Farm

"expect to see all those 'homes' with no planning permission for Conservatories in the 'surreys' of this world to be targetted next !"

What?

borobadge Posted on 19/10/2011 10:17
The Battle for Dale Farm

of course, 'travellers' are NOT part of the system....thats the whole point !...

and in any case after the site is cleared, caravans can still stay on the site along with a few buildings...

the council bodds got the warrant wrong [:D]

slovak Posted on 19/10/2011 10:18
The Battle for Dale Farm

There were definitely Irish 'travellers' there.

Unless "the usual swampy crew fighting the fackin' system whilst living off daddy's trust fund" are Irish or putting on Irish accents.

youngson19 Posted on 19/10/2011 10:26
The Battle for Dale Farm

It was mainly the left wing unwashed "open the boarders to all" student types who are their thinking they are fighting the system in a ever lasting "class war"

Idiots the lot of them.

Regards.
J

ABCD Posted on 19/10/2011 10:29
The Battle for Dale Farm

err you don't need planning for a conservatory as long as it's less than a certain hieght and % of your garden?

Idiots [rle]

rivals_oldschool Posted on 19/10/2011 10:29
The Battle for Dale Farm

I particular enjoyed the irony of them complaining about the bailiffs cutting off the electricity they've illegally tapped into.

As we all know, electricity comes free.

japsterbor0 Posted on 19/10/2011 10:41
The Battle for Dale Farm

rivals - [:D]

borobadge Posted on 19/10/2011 10:45
The Battle for Dale Farm

'as long as it's less than a certain hieght and % of your garden'....

theres a clue in there ! [:D]

leafysuburblawbreakers....

mattrich Posted on 19/10/2011 10:48
The Battle for Dale Farm

Health and Safety has ruined live TV, the police are having to move slowly so the scaffolding (no doubt erected by a reputable scaffolding company registered at companies house) doesn’t collapse, I can’t imagine Sky and BBC been happy with the slow progress, viewers will be leaving in droves to return to Jeremy Kyle.

japsterbor0 Posted on 19/10/2011 10:52
The Battle for Dale Farm

badge - And the owners of your average family home would never commit such a heinous crime now would they?[rle]

oooooo Posted on 19/10/2011 10:52
The Battle for Dale Farm

"It was mainly the left wing unwashed "open the boarders to all" student types who are their thinking they are fighting the system in a ever lasting "class war" "

People do talk some utter gash, don't they?

GillZean Posted on 19/10/2011 10:56
The Battle for Dale Farm

slovak,

read what I actually wrote.[rle]

pierrequiroule Posted on 19/10/2011 10:58
The Battle for Dale Farm

Someone has to fight the system or the lardarses would have nothing to watch on Sky.

mattrich Posted on 19/10/2011 10:58
The Battle for Dale Farm

The Sky news presenter is a turn, she has just asked why they can’t taser the people on the scaffolding, you could hear the bobby in the studio laughing as he told her they would fall off if that happened, she then asked when the protestors would take a “comfort break” or a meal break, the booby said things like that don’t usually matter to protestors!

zaphod Posted on 19/10/2011 11:05
The Battle for Dale Farm

Surely it's up to Basildon Council to find an alternative site or accommodation? All councils have a duty towards homeless people, whether they're travellers or not, & most of them have been resident in Basildon for years.

Sea_Harrier Posted on 19/10/2011 11:09
The Battle for Dale Farm

There's an alternative purpose built site 200m away with all amenities built for them two years ago by Basildon Council but they won't use it.

Why won't they use the new site? Because it has an address and makes "travellers" traceable and accountable.

If they are travellers, then why don't they want to travel?

beardog Posted on 19/10/2011 11:09
The Battle for Dale Farm

They have been offerd accommodation but they dont want it.

youngson19 Posted on 19/10/2011 11:20
The Battle for Dale Farm

oooooo

Please prove that the words that you have quoted me as saying are wrong.

Since this came into the media spot light, far left groups such as UAF and searchlight have called for mobilisation of communist anarchist and all left thinking people to defend the travels "rights".

Rather than spewing "utter gash" why don't you address the issue that I have raised.

The fact remains the Left Wing rent a mob are the ones causing the trouble as per usual.

Regards
J

Fletch Posted on 19/10/2011 12:48
The Battle for Dale Farm

Where are all the locals going to buy their pegs from now? [:D]

miltonkeynesaverage Posted on 19/10/2011 13:14
The Battle for Dale Farm

Tasering gypsies.

Carlsberg don't do job...

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 19/10/2011 13:16
The Battle for Dale Farm

i dont understand the issue with them staying there.

there is a big lack of accommodation for such people so to kick these people off land they own themselves forcing them elsewhere where accommodation is already lacking is incredible

oooooo Posted on 19/10/2011 13:20
The Battle for Dale Farm

"oooooo

Please prove that the words that you have quoted me as saying are wrong."

You suggested that left-wingers want to open "boarders(sic)" to all. If you're going to make silly statements like that then it's up to you to justify them and not me to waste my time pointing out why it's a stupid thing to say.

degsyspesh Posted on 19/10/2011 13:25
The Battle for Dale Farm

It's pretty obvious from the TV that there are no pikeys left on the site - just a load of ra-ra rent a mob students with posh home counties accents. Personally I just think that they should have momentarily electrified the scaffolding tower - that would have soon got them down.....

japsterbor0 Posted on 19/10/2011 13:29
The Battle for Dale Farm

[^]

Jonathan May-Bowles being a great example of one. The bloke is an utter attention seeking tool. As much as I dislike Murdock, I wished his wife would have knocked-out this parasite.[:(]

Jonny_Rondos_Disco_pants Posted on 19/10/2011 13:31
The Battle for Dale Farm

The scaffold as said will not be tagged and will looks to be overloaded. I would get a crane and lift the scaffold and protesters in the air and put a big inflatable mat below so when they get bored they can jump an be arrested.

degsyspesh Posted on 19/10/2011 13:39
The Battle for Dale Farm

Joking apart, if I was in charge I would just built a fenced enclosure around the scaffolding and leave the doyle's there while I got on and dismantled the rest of the site. A couple of cold nights and maybe a spot of rain would soon see them running back to mummy and daddy.

neworder Posted on 19/10/2011 13:42
The Battle for Dale Farm

A great day for "Brand Uk" to be seen all around the world. [V]

degsyspesh Posted on 19/10/2011 13:46
The Battle for Dale Farm

"A great day for "Brand Uk" to be seen all around the world."

I think that "the world" has more important things to worry about than us removing some privileged student protestors from a scaffolding tower.

Just because Sky are insisting of full live coverage doesn't actually mean that anyone is really that interested.

TWoS Posted on 19/10/2011 13:46
The Battle for Dale Farm

A Waltham Forest councillor has apologised after observing that the tower would "make a great game of human Ker-Plunk". No sense of humour some people.

TWoS Posted on 19/10/2011 13:48
The Battle for Dale Farm

@degsyspesh: I thought that wouldn't be surprised if they do just that.

borobadge Posted on 19/10/2011 14:02
The Battle for Dale Farm

japster..yer 'avaerage' family dont live in the leafy-suburbs and villages of sussex, kent, surrey, etc etc....

and for certain there wouldnt be any conservatories in cleveland that would upset the planner.....

however, in this green and sceptered isle, shirley we dont have 1 law for mr amd mrs avaerage and another law for the eton trifle groupies....do we ?

neworder Posted on 19/10/2011 14:11
The Battle for Dale Farm

Great images of police tasering people. Welcome to Camerons brave new compassionate conservatism.

squarewheelbike Posted on 19/10/2011 14:16
The Battle for Dale Farm

I'm pretty much an old school leftie, but also of the belief of "actions and consequences". The Police were met with a barrage of bricks, if one of them then TASER's you for his own protection, then what thefcuk did you expect?

mattrich Posted on 19/10/2011 14:17
The Battle for Dale Farm

"Great images of police tasering people. Welcome to Camerons brave new compassionate conservatism."

So the police should stand there smiling as the yobs throw bricks and fireworks at them?

TWoS Posted on 19/10/2011 14:19
The Battle for Dale Farm

Remember Orgreave. The BBC edited the film to make it seem as though the police mounted a cavalry charge in response to a barrage of stones from the pickets. In fact the reverse was the case.

halcyon Posted on 19/10/2011 14:21
The Battle for Dale Farm

On the Gazette's website today, there is a poll-

'Do you agree with the Dale Farm site eviction?'

Current voting suggests that 89.6% do.

FlarPhone_Warehouse Posted on 19/10/2011 14:21
The Battle for Dale Farm

Far be it for me to be sensible on here but I would let them stay.

It has cost double figure millions of pounds so far, it costs more millions to evict them and then what happens?

They move two miles down the road, park up illegally and the whole thing starts again, costing the country even more money!

Leave them be, register them and get them paying tax

pierrequiroule Posted on 19/10/2011 14:22
The Battle for Dale Farm

"I'm pretty much an old school leftie..."

Really?

neworder Posted on 19/10/2011 14:23
The Battle for Dale Farm

I look forward to the day when all law breaking is to treated with equivalence. The image of the riot police entering the square mile and tasering the theiving bankers while throwing them in the slammer is delicious if improbable.

There again whats more important 200 gypsies breaking the planning laws or a clique of bankers asset stripping you me and the rest of this country of our inherited wealth.

FlarPhone_Warehouse Posted on 19/10/2011 14:25
The Battle for Dale Farm

Oh FFS!!!!!

Only a matter of time before some ill-informed bell whiff mentions "the bankers"

IDIOT

flaps Posted on 19/10/2011 14:28
The Battle for Dale Farm

What in particular do you think is 'ill-informed', flar?

Does the thought of a few dozen gypsies living on some scrapland a couple of hundred miles away make you angrier than a few thousand rich people who have ruined this country?


neworder Posted on 19/10/2011 14:30
The Battle for Dale Farm

Flar you keep reading the Sun and keep believing. it will make you feel all warm and secure.

mattrich Posted on 19/10/2011 14:35
The Battle for Dale Farm

The Bankers didn't break any laws did they? The gypsies did, isn't that the difference?

flaps Posted on 19/10/2011 14:38
The Battle for Dale Farm

"The Bankers didn't break any laws did they? The gypsies did, isn't that the difference?"

That's one difference between a group of travellers failing to comply with a court order over their use of an old scrapyard, and millionaires who have virtually bankrupted the country, yes.

neworder Posted on 19/10/2011 14:39
The Battle for Dale Farm

Mattrich corporate crime is against the law.

Its the same as if someone mugged your wife and took her purse you would be rightly angered. Have a good read around and understand the level of crime that has been perpetrated against your family.

rivals_oldschool Posted on 19/10/2011 14:47
The Battle for Dale Farm

It's good to know should a company decide to set-up a sewage plant right next to your home without planning permission none of you would say anything then.

Not quite sure where the bankers come into this argument. This is about planning permission.

The law as it stands makes perfect sense to me, as travellers they are free to roam the land but should they want to build on it's expected they chip in.


TheSmogMonster Posted on 19/10/2011 14:48
The Battle for Dale Farm

So which corporate laws were broken?

I won't defend the bankers on a moral level but they didn't break any laws, it wasn't even theft it was bad bets and stupidity.

flaps Posted on 19/10/2011 14:49
The Battle for Dale Farm

"but should they want to build on it's expected they chip in."

That's not the reason why they can't build on the land they bought.

Or are you saying that if you 'chip in' enough, you can ignore planning laws?

Maybe you're right, it works for Tesco.

borobadge Posted on 19/10/2011 14:50
The Battle for Dale Farm

'The Bankers didn't break any laws did they?'

are some people for real....

the ignorance is astounding.

TheSmogMonster Posted on 19/10/2011 14:53
The Battle for Dale Farm

Name the laws that were broken and who broke them and how it led to the economic crisis.

neworder Posted on 19/10/2011 14:53
The Battle for Dale Farm

it took me about 30 seconds to get an article on corporate crime by a Professor of economics.


Link: educate yourselves

rivals_oldschool Posted on 19/10/2011 14:58
The Battle for Dale Farm

Chipping in includes playing by the rules.

Like bothering with planning permission or paying for the electricity. You know, the general day to day stuff that separates us from descending into an enormous free for all.

Again, at least the likes of Tesco are made to give something up for the privilege, this lot give nothing.

Whats the argument here, that we all should act like bankers and Gypsy's? No thanks.

flaps Posted on 19/10/2011 14:59
The Battle for Dale Farm

Playing by the rules...like the 80% of people who build without planning permission who have approval retrospectively granted (compared to 20% of travellers who do not)?

TheSmogMonster Posted on 19/10/2011 15:01
The Battle for Dale Farm

Did you only take 30 seconds to read it too?

It's about corporate corruption and not entirely applicable.

If your argument is that some bankers commit crimes then of course they do and they should be punished. But accusing them wholesale of being bent is stupid and accusing them of stealing from you in the same way as a mugging is wrong.

rivals_oldschool Posted on 19/10/2011 15:04
The Battle for Dale Farm

Are we just pulling random facts from thin air now are we?

xxlshirts_fit_all Posted on 19/10/2011 15:11
The Battle for Dale Farm

80% of people dont apply for planning permission? (i will assume you mean 80% of people who need it, rather tha of everyone in britain) where did you get this statistic? seems a lot to me!

but only 20% of gypsies dont apply for it?

come on, you made them figures up didnt you[?]

Steer Posted on 19/10/2011 15:12
The Battle for Dale Farm

So its Ok for Martin Johnson to lead our Rugby team to international humiliation, but its not OK for a few Pikeys to live on an old scrap yard?[:o)]

The debating mentality of some on here leaves a lot to be desired. Stop comparing two completely different issues.

neworder Posted on 19/10/2011 15:13
The Battle for Dale Farm

Good to know that a few of the neoradicals on here will be mounting the barricades and sharpening the guillotine when the penny drops that corporate crime is endemic.
Until then get the popcorn out sit back and watch the spectacle on tele.....you know it makes you feel good.


Link: i will find more stay calm

flaps Posted on 19/10/2011 15:13
The Battle for Dale Farm

No, that's not what i said.

Of applications for retrospective planning permission:

20% of applications from gypsies are granted.

80% of applications from everyone else are granted.

xxlshirts_fit_all Posted on 19/10/2011 15:17
The Battle for Dale Farm

ok, appologies for reading it wrong, but still wheres them figures from?

youngson19 Posted on 19/10/2011 15:17
The Battle for Dale Farm

"oooooo

You suggested that left-wingers want to open "boarders(sic)" to all. If you're going to make silly statements like that then it's up to you to justify them and not me to waste my time pointing out why it's a stupid thing to say."

Are you deluded?

I know many Left wing student types that go to Newcastle and Teesside university. Most are members socialist working party and they support open boarders.

Open boards and support for mass immigration is very Left wing.

It's not Right wing now is it.

[8)][8)]

Regards
J


FlarPhone_Warehouse Posted on 19/10/2011 15:18
The Battle for Dale Farm

Youngson are you related to Atkingson?

flaps Posted on 19/10/2011 15:19
The Battle for Dale Farm

"ok, appologies for reading it wrong, but still wheres them figures from?"

From another forum where I was reading about this. I don't have a source for you.

oooooo Posted on 19/10/2011 15:20
The Battle for Dale Farm

So all left leaning people want open 'boarders' and your 'proof' for this is that you know a couple of 19, 20, 21 year old kids who also want open 'boarders'? I doubt any of them can even spell the word.

FlarPhone_Warehouse Posted on 19/10/2011 15:21
The Battle for Dale Farm

WTF is an open boarder?

Something to do with posh schools? I blame the bankers

youngson19 Posted on 19/10/2011 15:21
The Battle for Dale Farm

lol

no [?]

xxlshirts_fit_all Posted on 19/10/2011 15:22
The Battle for Dale Farm

i imagine its not as cut and dry as what you are suggesting even if your figures are nearly right.

retrospective planning isnt decided on living status but on whether planning permission would have been granted originally if applied for before the building was errected, i suggest in most peoples cases it would have been (possibly 80% of cases [:P])
and in traveller cases, well, do you reckon their applications would have been granted prior to building?

flaps Posted on 19/10/2011 15:22
The Battle for Dale Farm

Funny that the labour party originally opposed european union while the conservatives supported it.

To be honest I would have thought that the easy transfer of potentially cheap labour in and out of a workforce would be a more natural fit for right-wing free market ideologies than for a socialist viewpoint.

I can think of at least one notable right winger who was very keen on tearing down the borders between countries and moving populations about.

halcyon Posted on 19/10/2011 15:23
The Battle for Dale Farm

[:D]

FlarPhone_Warehouse Posted on 19/10/2011 15:24
The Battle for Dale Farm

Seriously, was all that talk about boarders actually about borders? [:D]

youngson19 Posted on 19/10/2011 15:26
The Battle for Dale Farm

Did I say all those who consider themselves Left of the political spectrum are for open borders? No.

Is support for Open borders and mass immigration a Left wing trait? Yes, because it is surely not a Right wing one.

[8)]

sorry spelling mistake, borders I meant.
[:I]

Regards
J

flaps Posted on 19/10/2011 15:26
The Battle for Dale Farm

"because it is surely not a Right wing one"

Why not?

Gene_Vincent Posted on 19/10/2011 15:28
The Battle for Dale Farm

"From another forum where I was reading about this. I don't have a source for you."

That's because they are made up. Show me where, on a planning application form, it asks if you are a Traveller or Gypo. It doesn't. So how can anyone produce statistics on the % of planning applications put in by "Travellers"? It's like trying to provide statistics on the number of planning applications put in by Gays - impossible unless you personally went round asking every applicant.

ron_manager Posted on 19/10/2011 15:30
The Battle for Dale Farm

No it was about "boarders" as in privileged children who liove in private schools such as the old Friends school[;)]

rivals_oldschool Posted on 19/10/2011 15:31
The Battle for Dale Farm

So the answer is yes then, you pulled it from thin air.

youngson19 Posted on 19/10/2011 15:32
The Battle for Dale Farm

Because to be known as "right wing" in todays society would normally mean that you are against mass immigration and are nationalistic.

If you check the student forums and have have been to college and university recently then you would understand that being against mass immigration is considered by the vast majority of "Left wing" students to be "right wing"

Regards
J




FlarPhone_Warehouse Posted on 19/10/2011 15:37
The Battle for Dale Farm

FFS!! [:D]

two_banks_of_four Posted on 19/10/2011 15:43
The Battle for Dale Farm

The planning stat comes from a commission for racial equality report (our whatever they are called now). Don't think they are right though as they don't compare like for like.

For example it is a lot easier to get Planning permission (retrospective or otherwise) for a conservatory in a residential area than a change of use application in green belt. Particularly if the use is 'inappropriate' in the green belt where there is a presumption against development.

flaps Posted on 19/10/2011 15:47
The Battle for Dale Farm

You'll be pleased to hear that I have a source for the 80/20 stats I posted earlier:

It's actually slightly worse than I said:

"In the case of Gypsies, the problem was compounded by features peculiar to them. Their characteristic lifestyle debarred them from access to conventional sources of housing provision. Their attempts to obtain planning permission almost always met with failure: statistics quoted by the European Court of Human Rights in Chapman v United Kingdom (2001) 33 EHRR 399, page 420, paragraph 66, showed that in 1991, the most recent year for which figures were available, 90 per cent of applications made by Gypsies had been refused whereas 80 per cent of all applications had been granted."




Link: House of Lords

MKredleaderOne Posted on 19/10/2011 16:45
The Battle for Dale Farm

Maybe they should have aimed the taser at the scaffold.

I would have probably saved a lot of time.

neworder Posted on 19/10/2011 18:10
The Battle for Dale Farm

What the hell are you doing Flaps[:(!][:(!][:(!][:(!]
Never let facts get in the way of prejudice.
Fact.

swordtrombonefish Posted on 19/10/2011 19:05
The Battle for Dale Farm

A proper 'boarder'


Link: Sign

rivals_oldschool Posted on 19/10/2011 19:21
The Battle for Dale Farm

I still don't see anything that suggests retrospective planning permission is granted for 80% of applications from everyone other than a Gypsy.

Besides that I think most planning permission tends to be granted to 'everyone' else because they take the time to consult the rules before submitting.

Hell, they may even hire an architect before hand.

Rather than bombastically thinking they can build what they what where they want.

flaps Posted on 19/10/2011 19:35
The Battle for Dale Farm

"I still don't see anything that suggests retrospective planning permission is granted for 80% of applications from everyone other than a Gypsy. "

You don't?

"in 1991, the most recent year for which figures were available, 90 per cent of applications made by Gypsies had been refused whereas 80 per cent of all applications had been granted."

How much more clear does it need to be?

To be fair, I don't think that is retrospective permission it's talking about, but that's the best I can do at the moment.

two_banks_of_four Posted on 19/10/2011 19:40
The Battle for Dale Farm

Sorry to labour the point, but some planning applications have more chance of been granted than others. Unless the statistics you quote compare the same type of application they are rather meaningless.

Pogatetz_Ate_My_Hamster_ Posted on 19/10/2011 19:41
The Battle for Dale Farm

Is it possible to have a debate without the left mentioning bankers [:D]

rivals_oldschool Posted on 19/10/2011 19:42
The Battle for Dale Farm

There is no 'to be fair' about it.

It talks about requests about planning permission. Nothing about retrospective permission being granted.

Thus far then, you've done nothing but pull 'facts' from your ar*e.

borotmt Posted on 19/10/2011 19:45
The Battle for Dale Farm

FLAPS, WHAT A LOAD OF BULLXXXXXX
planning applications dont have an ethic origin box
I can safely assume you have this little gem from an interested party, say one who would compare national figures with those from erm errrrm .... Dale farm perhaps??[:o)]

And they are Travellers not Gypsies two different etnicities(spl) apparently
but bothe with similar traits Mmmmmmmm.

neworder Posted on 19/10/2011 19:46
The Battle for Dale Farm

rivals you cant see anything because you dont want to see anything.
Fair does if like quite a few others you have an intense dislike against people who live different to yourself say it as it is, dont dress your views any other way.

flaps Posted on 19/10/2011 19:48
The Battle for Dale Farm

"I can safely assume you have this little gem from an interested party, say one who whould compare national figures with those from erm "

It's no secret where I got them from it's right there in the link and on the page?

Obsolete_of_Charm Posted on 19/10/2011 19:48
The Battle for Dale Farm

'planning applications dont have an ethic origin box'

True boronut, but when it is signed Shamus O'Brian, caravan No 7, Dale Farm...

that may give them a little clue [^]

flaps Posted on 19/10/2011 19:49
The Battle for Dale Farm

"Thus far then, you've done nothing but pull 'facts' from your ar*e."

I've pulled facts from the House of Lords that shows that 90% of gypsy planning applications are rejected, whereas only 20% of planning applications as a whole are rejected.

borotmt Posted on 19/10/2011 19:50
The Battle for Dale Farm

come on new order youXXXXXX, pull the racist card, utterXXXXXX!!
btw who are the "rivals" [:o)]knob[:o)]

flaps Posted on 19/10/2011 19:51
The Battle for Dale Farm

Why are you people getting so angry about this?

flaps Posted on 19/10/2011 19:52
The Battle for Dale Farm

borotmt: by 'rivals' he is referring to 'rivals_oldschool' i imagine

i might be wrong of course i'm just guessing

borotmt Posted on 19/10/2011 19:53
The Battle for Dale Farm

listen, Im Irish origin, I was over their in March and Im back in November, the irish nation salutes the british social services and law, .. and we can keep all the tinkers we want , scum the lot of em!

neworder Posted on 19/10/2011 19:55
The Battle for Dale Farm

directly brefered to the myopic rivalsoldschool, boromt. Btw who the cap fits.. after that last tirade mate you get the cap.

slovak Posted on 19/10/2011 19:56
The Battle for Dale Farm

"Travellers not gypsies"

Well they're not very good "travellers" - they've been there for 10 years! [:O]

Boromart Posted on 19/10/2011 19:57
The Battle for Dale Farm

borobadge, are you for real? I live in one of those counties in a leafy suburb....in 10 years I have yet to see a conservatory that would break planning permission laws.

flaps Posted on 19/10/2011 19:58
The Battle for Dale Farm

"listen, Im Irish origin, I was over their in March and Im back in November"

Maybe you can stay there next time you go? We don't want you in our country, Paddy.

flaps Posted on 19/10/2011 19:58
The Battle for Dale Farm

Not nice is it.

youngson19 Posted on 19/10/2011 20:03
The Battle for Dale Farm

Flaps, Any creditability you once had has just been thrown out the window due to your comment directed at borotmt.

[:o)]

Regards
J

Boromart Posted on 19/10/2011 20:04
The Battle for Dale Farm

"20% of applications from gypsies are granted.

80% of applications from everyone else are granted."

...and maybe that is because most planning applications by gypsies is to CHANGE the purpose of land. E.g. in this case from Green Belt to residential. Most planning permission from the rest of society is for nothing more than a house extension and NOT a CHANGE in use. I would guess that if I tried to buy some green belt land and get the permission for a residential property then I wouldn't have more than a 20% chance off success.

flaps Posted on 19/10/2011 20:04
The Battle for Dale Farm

That's not a strawman argument youngson19.

flaps Posted on 19/10/2011 20:05
The Battle for Dale Farm

"and maybe that is because most planning applications by gypsies is to CHANGE the purpose of land. E.g. in this case from Green Belt to residential. Most planning permission from the rest of society is for nothing more than a house extension and NOT a CHANGE in use. I would guess that if I tried to buy some green belt land and get the permission for a residential property then I wouldn't have more than a 20% chance off success."

Lot of assumptions you're making there.

I'm just presenting facts.

borotmt Posted on 19/10/2011 20:07
The Battle for Dale Farm

Flaps, your a wind up merchant a pretty poor one at that,
im off , you bore me.

flaps Posted on 19/10/2011 20:08
The Battle for Dale Farm

Sorry for boring you with facts.

You did seem quite excited when saying 'come on new order youXXXXXX, pull the racist card, utterXXXXXX!!' though.

Toodles.

oooooo Posted on 19/10/2011 20:11
The Battle for Dale Farm

I don't know about you but that quote alone flaps, I dunno, it doesn't add up to me. There's something about it that I can't quite put my finger on...

Could it be pure, vile racism?

Boromart Posted on 19/10/2011 20:13
The Battle for Dale Farm

There are 2 presumptions.

1) That travellers tend to buy non-residential land and change its purpose. Well why woulod they buy a residential property? They wouldn't be travllers if they did that! The dale farm example is evidence of this. It was green belt.

2) That I would have a low chance of getting planning permission for green belt. I am in the early stages of looking at self build and havve been told by professionals that it is a very low number of applications for green belt land that get ratified.

Your presumption is that the breakdown off planning permissions from travellers and the rest of us are the same type. that seems a far bigger presumption to me.

As someone else said, there isn't an ethnicity box in planning application forms. So the figures are also very subjective.

flaps Posted on 19/10/2011 20:14
The Battle for Dale Farm

Well, yes, exactly.

flaps Posted on 19/10/2011 20:19
The Battle for Dale Farm

"As someone else said, there isn't an ethnicity box in planning application forms. So the figures are also very subjective."

I'm not sure you know what subjective means.

Ralphy Posted on 19/10/2011 20:25
The Battle for Dale Farm

Racism? [:o)] what other race can you choose to walk away from? How many these travellers have you offered accommodation to?

flaps Posted on 19/10/2011 20:26
The Battle for Dale Farm

Yeah it's like those Indian people born in the UK to Indian parents, how can you be Indian when you were born in the UK?

This kind of thing makes my brain hurt.

oooooo Posted on 19/10/2011 20:30
The Battle for Dale Farm

Some proper 'dolfs on here.

Boromart Posted on 19/10/2011 21:13
The Battle for Dale Farm

"I'm not sure you know what subjective means."

Definition : "existing in the mind; belonging to the thinking subject rather than to the object of thought "

Which is EXACTLY what I mean, these 'stats' are so vague that an interpretation has to be applied from the thinker.

Seems to me like YOU don't know what subjective is. You have tried to look clever and have ended up making yourself look a bit daft [;)]

flaps Posted on 19/10/2011 21:18
The Battle for Dale Farm

"existing in the mind; belonging to the thinking subject rather than to the object of thought"

So you're suggesting that the statistics quoted by the European Court of Human Rights in Chapman v United Kingdom (2001) 33 EHRR 399, page 420, paragraph 66 were just 'made up'?

The stats aren't vague, they're precise percentages.

Have a good think about this, and get back to me when you've decided if you really do think you know what 'subjective' means.

bill_door Posted on 19/10/2011 21:28
The Battle for Dale Farm

"Sorry to labour the point, but some planning applications have more chance of been granted than others. Unless the statistics you quote compare the same type of application they are rather meaningless."

What he said. Unless the applications are for the same type of plans, the stats don't mean anything.

flaps Posted on 19/10/2011 21:31
The Battle for Dale Farm

That's alright then.

GillZean Posted on 19/10/2011 21:32
The Battle for Dale Farm

Oh flaps, bless you, you really don't get it, do you?

Boromart Posted on 19/10/2011 21:33
The Battle for Dale Farm

"were just 'made up'? "
I didn't say they were 'made up', were did you read that?

The stats aren't vague, they're precise percentages. "

I don't think you understand the meaning of precision [;)]

I'm not questioning the precision, I am questioning if the underlying data is comparable. [:o)]

flaps Posted on 19/10/2011 21:34
The Battle for Dale Farm

"I didn't say they were 'made up', were did you read that?"

In your definition of 'subjective':

"existing in the mind; belonging to the thinking subject rather than to the object of thought"

flaps Posted on 19/10/2011 21:41
The Battle for Dale Farm

"Oh flaps, bless you, you really don't get it, do you?"

lol youre right i dont get it i thought that maybe society and the planning system were prejudiced against travellers so i found out some figures that appeared to back it up and i saw a hundred policeman march into a scapyard to kick out some people from some land they owned and it all seemed to fit but then i read some of the posts on this thread and when it was explained to me that people who shared my viewpoint were 'bellwhiffs' and that these stats i read were all made up i started to realise i was wrong

sorry about that everyone im still learning

MrsTiggywinkle Posted on 19/10/2011 21:41
The Battle for Dale Farm

Boromart is right.
I expect that the vast majority of planning applications are not from travellers (based on the proportion of the population that are travellers), and that the type of applications are very different. Therefore percentages become almost meaningless. Generally speaking, staticians can use data to prove or disprove any theory.

Boromart Posted on 19/10/2011 21:41
The Battle for Dale Farm

subjective made up. [rle]

It is easy for some people to 'infer meaning' on the facts displayed. The facts being that:-
a) the grouping of data into traveller vs. non-travellers is flawed, incomplete and by it;s nature likely bias.
b) the breakdown of request types is not defined, and likely not comparable due to the nature of the two study groups.

Any interpretation of these stats would be highly SUBJECTIVE.

flaps Posted on 19/10/2011 21:43
The Battle for Dale Farm

"the grouping of data into traveller vs. non-travellers is flawed"

Why are you assuming this ?

GillZean Posted on 19/10/2011 21:43
The Battle for Dale Farm

I know you are flaps, but it's a very slow process.

MrsTiggywinkle Posted on 19/10/2011 21:45
The Battle for Dale Farm

As I posted earlier...
just because you own a piece of land it does not give you an automatic right to build what you like. Even with a basic knowledge of planning law, you must understand that.
I own a wonderful piece of land in a small rural village and would love to build a house on it,but will never be granted planning permission as it is outside the designated area for development. I pay council tax and live a lawful life, but do not have an expectation that the law does not apply to me.

Boromart Posted on 19/10/2011 21:48
The Battle for Dale Farm

stop flapping like a woman flaps.

You are right that our people are in general anti-travellers. Would be interesting to see the proportion of travellers arrested for fighting or theft vs the general population to see if this is prejudice or not.


"i saw a hundred policeman march into a scapyard to kick out some people from some land they owned" - over simplification isn't it? They are not being kicked out of their land. They are being temporarily removed so that the illegal buildings they have erected can be destroyed safely. Once that is done I'm sure they can walk back on their land again. they just can't build on it.

flaps Posted on 19/10/2011 21:50
The Battle for Dale Farm

"just because you own a piece of land it does not give you an automatic right to build what you like. Even with a basic knowledge of planning law,"

I fully understand that, and I'm glad that's the case.

But when I look at all the millions spent by Basildon council, the amount of court time taken up, the upset and the violence I can't help but think it would have been better for the council to decide that, all things considered, letting them keep a few walls and caravans on a former scrapyard would have been the sensible course of action to take.

Boromart Posted on 19/10/2011 21:50
The Battle for Dale Farm

"Why are you assuming this ?"
Because planning permission forms do not have a tick box stating "Are you a traveller?".

flaps Posted on 19/10/2011 21:52
The Battle for Dale Farm

"Would be interesting to see the proportion of travellers arrested for fighting or theft vs the general population to see if this is prejudice or not."

Well we know this sort of thing for black people: apparently they are represented in the prison population seven times more than in the population as a whole.

What prejudice do you think this data proves or disproves?

MrsTiggywinkle Posted on 19/10/2011 21:52
The Battle for Dale Farm

....but flaps, that would set a precedent. Can't be done. Where would it end?

flaps Posted on 19/10/2011 21:52
The Battle for Dale Farm

"Because planning permission forms do not have a tick box stating "Are you a traveller?"."

...so how do you think they got the data?

flaps Posted on 19/10/2011 21:53
The Battle for Dale Farm

"....but flaps, that would set a precedent. Can't be done. Where would it end?"

With travelling communities settled on old scrapyards that they own?

GillZean Posted on 19/10/2011 21:56
The Battle for Dale Farm

With travelling communities settled on old scrapyards that they own?

But 'forgot' to get planning permission for.

MrsTiggywinkle Posted on 19/10/2011 21:56
The Battle for Dale Farm

Then I would be saying 'I am entitled to planning permission'.

Boromart Posted on 19/10/2011 21:56
The Battle for Dale Farm

"But when I look at all the millions spent by Basildon council.....I can't help but think it would have been better for the council to decide that, all things considered, letting them keep a few walls and caravans on a former scrapyard would have been the sensible course of action to take."

are you suggesting that the law should only be applied within certain financial considerations. Should we replace criminal prosecutors with accountants? What do you suggest a sliding cost scale depending on the crime. Of course you would have to add the cost to keep them in prison. How far would you take this then flaps? Lets say it costs more than say £100,000 to investigate, prosecute and incarcerate a rapist should we not bother, all things considered?

Boromart Posted on 19/10/2011 22:00
The Battle for Dale Farm

"With travelling communities settled on old scrapyards that they own?"

Can you explaain to me how if they are 'settled' they can be classed as a 'travelling community'?

bill_door Posted on 19/10/2011 22:00
The Battle for Dale Farm

Flaps, perhaps you could find stats that show the type of planning applications received.

The link below is a snippet - January to March of this year - and shows that 70% of applications were for 'householder developments' and 'minor developments', which in turn are more likely to be approved - this is on table P123 and covers 67,000 applications.

Table P137 shows traveller/gypsy stats in England for the same period.
Major decisions 8, 5 of which were granted.
Minor decisions 58, 30 of which were granted.

You can already summise for yourself that the type of applications are different, but you can also see the huge difference in numbers involved as well as the differences in timescale, due no doubt to the simplicity of the ones being approved. It also happens to be way off '90% being rejected' but you can look at other periods and find the ones being rejected by yourself.[^]


Link: Live Tables

flaps Posted on 19/10/2011 22:01
The Battle for Dale Farm

"How far would you take this then flaps? Lets say it costs more than say £100,000 to investigate, prosecute and incarcerate a rapist should we not bother, all things considered?"

Now that really is a strawman argument.

I'm not suggesting any such thing.

The council has it within their power to grant planning permission. They chose not to do so, believing that it was better to reject it and pursue the case through the courts.

Breaching planning laws is not a criminal act. No law was broken until the people who live there did not comply with the court order. Basildon council chose that course of action.

flaps Posted on 19/10/2011 22:02
The Battle for Dale Farm

"Can you explaain to me how if they are 'settled' they can be classed as a 'travelling community'?"

Because the word 'travelling' isn't an adjective in this context, it's the ethnic designation for this group of people. Some live in houses, some live in static caravans, somr roam the country. You don't join this community when you go for a drive in the countryside.

flaps Posted on 19/10/2011 22:03
The Battle for Dale Farm

"Table P137 shows traveller/gypsy stats in England for the same period. "

Surely some mistake I thought it was impossible to gather this data?

Boromart Posted on 19/10/2011 22:05
The Battle for Dale Farm

Basildon Council have a duty to ALL the people of Basildon, not just the select few, who refuse to live within the rules.

Once the decision is made then they should stick to it and not let bullying tactics like this make them change their mind.

flaps Posted on 19/10/2011 22:06
The Battle for Dale Farm

"Once the decision is made then they should stick to it and not let bullying tactics like this make them change their mind."

lol

Boromart Posted on 19/10/2011 22:09
The Battle for Dale Farm

"it's the ethnic designation for this group of people" - so you are promoting reverse-discrimination! You think that the law should be relaxed for ethnic minorities, yet fully applied to the majority! That simply isn't fair or sustainable and would lead to far greater problems and greater costs incurred as the majority start to ignore the law.

benga69 Posted on 19/10/2011 22:10
The Battle for Dale Farm

Shame on yee, I feel for the travels who don't want to travel no more, why don't we call them settlers and let them live in peace, as long as its 50 mile away from me. in fact give them Scotland. [rle]

flaps Posted on 19/10/2011 22:12
The Battle for Dale Farm

"so you are promoting reverse-discrimination! You think that the law should be relaxed for ethnic minorities, yet fully applied to the majority!"

I think it should never have become a legal matter.

But yes, in this case I think positive discrimination would have helped.

It would have saved a lot of money and helped a travelling community assimilate instead of breeding more distrust.

Instead we've got people who hate the state more than they did before, who will just turn up somewhere else next time and the cycle will begin anew.


GillZean Posted on 19/10/2011 22:13
The Battle for Dale Farm

No law was broken until the people who live there did not comply with the court order.

flaps are you implying that the lovely, upstanding citizens of Dale Farm thought what they were doing was all legal and above board? And the 10 years of legal 'wrangles'(ie being told what they had done was wrong) weren't even a hint that something might be wrong?

flaps Posted on 19/10/2011 22:15
The Battle for Dale Farm

No I'm not implying that.

I think they knew exactly what they were doing. I think they knew they wouldn't get planning permission so set up camp and hoped for the best.

Were they wrong to do that? Wrong to set up a community on an old scrapyard they own?

I really don't think so, no.

Bill_Leather Posted on 19/10/2011 22:17
The Battle for Dale Farm

'stop flapping like a woman flaps.'

Please admin, come on....that's a disgrace.

Boromart Posted on 19/10/2011 22:22
The Battle for Dale Farm

"It would have saved a lot of money"
it isn't always about money.

"and helped a travelling community assimilate"
Can you explain how having a group of travellers livingn together cut off from the rest of the locale would 'assimilate' into our society? They were offered the opportunity to have homes council locally, true assimilation...but they didn't want to.

"instead of breeding more distrust"
...and reverse-discrimination would have bred trust?

"Instead we've got people who hate the state more than they did before" - I don't think that they do hate the state more. They have displayed their lack of 'assimilation' into our society, and lack of willingness to live by our rules. Which may have created a greater distrust towards them from the general population.

If they had played by the book and abided by the planning laws, they might have actually got some sympathy and backing from some locals. That could have done great deal of good for their community.

GillZean Posted on 19/10/2011 22:23
The Battle for Dale Farm

Really flaps? So would it be fine for my niece to build herself a house in my garden, because she can't afford a place of her own otherwise?

flaps Posted on 19/10/2011 22:25
The Battle for Dale Farm

"it isn't always about money."

Basildon council have proved a very expensive point.

"Can you explain how having a group of travellers livingn together cut off from the rest of the locale would 'assimilate' into our society? They were offered the opportunity to have homes council locally, true assimilation...but they didn't want to. "

Because they would have been more of them in a settled community with greater access to local schools, healthcare and social services.

"...and reverse-discrimination would have bred trust?"

Yes

"If they had played by the book and abided by the planning laws, they might have actually got some sympathy"

I doubt that


flaps Posted on 19/10/2011 22:26
The Battle for Dale Farm

"Really flaps?"

Really what?

GillZean Posted on 19/10/2011 22:30
The Battle for Dale Farm

"I think they knew they wouldn't get planning permission so set up camp and hoped for the best.

Were they wrong to do that? Wrong to set up a community on an old scrapyard they own?

I really don't think so, no. "

So it is fine for them to do what the XXXXXX they want. Nice one.

flaps Posted on 19/10/2011 22:32
The Battle for Dale Farm

I think that in this case it would have been better for them to have been allowed to use the land in the way they wanted.

That doesn't mean I think they should be allowed to do whatever they want, no.

GillZean Posted on 19/10/2011 22:34
The Battle for Dale Farm

On the basis that they are somehow a special case?

bill_door Posted on 19/10/2011 22:34
The Battle for Dale Farm

The way they wanted is to have 1,000 people living there, tapping into the gas, electricity and water supplies and receiving £250k a year in benefits between them?

That's not to mention the impact on the other people in their locale, who are sick to death of being intimidated and threatened.

Yeah, do what you want lads, it's unfair to try and stop you.

GillZean Posted on 19/10/2011 22:36
The Battle for Dale Farm

When do we decide which laws they should obey and which ones do not apply to them? Or do we need to come back to you on that one?

Boromart Posted on 19/10/2011 22:40
The Battle for Dale Farm

Lets not lose sight of why the travellers chose this land. They are trying to circumvent society and get cheap homes.

in the south-east Green-belt land - £20k/acre. Residential plannig permission land approx £450k/acre.

Maybe I should buy 3 acres of greenbelt, self- build a 5 bed house for about £300k. Total cost £360k, instead of the 1.6Mill that it would cost if I did it legitimately. Then again for those kind of savings our green belt land will be awash with new homes with no control over what they look like.

flaps Posted on 19/10/2011 22:42
The Battle for Dale Farm

"When do we decide which laws they should obey and which ones do not apply to them? Or do we need to come back to you on that one?"

We don't decide, Basildon council did, in this case.

flaps Posted on 19/10/2011 22:43
The Battle for Dale Farm

"On the basis that they are somehow a special case?"

CLearly they are?

flaps Posted on 19/10/2011 22:44
The Battle for Dale Farm

"Maybe I should buy 3 acres of greenbelt, self- build a 5 bed house for about £300k. Total cost £360k, instead of the 1.6Mill that it would cost if I did it legitimately"

I don't think that the traveller community at Dale Farm has been built with property prices in mind.

youngson19 Posted on 19/10/2011 22:45
The Battle for Dale Farm

Reverse discrimination as Flaps is suggesting would create more tension and even more distrust between the local people and the council/government.

[:(]

Regards
J



GillZean Posted on 19/10/2011 22:46
The Battle for Dale Farm

flaps you just said that you didn't think they needed permission in this case.

Why are they clearly a special case? Because they ignore laws that do not suit them?

Boromart Posted on 19/10/2011 22:47
The Battle for Dale Farm

"Basildon council have proved a very expensive point. "
..or put it another way. The travellers sense of entitlement and refusal to abide by the law has robbed the law abiding citizens of Basildon of 8million pounds worth of services. Selfish scum!

"Because they would have been more of them in a settled community with greater access to local schools, healthcare and social services. "
communities within communities don't work.

If you truly believe that reverse-discrimination would have bred trust, then your simply blind to human nature.

Especially as you go on to allude that the locals wouldn't accept them regardless of what they did, even if they had gone along with the councils decision and then started a lawful protest against it.

Boromart Posted on 19/10/2011 22:49
The Battle for Dale Farm

"I don't think that the traveller community at Dale Farm has been built with property prices in mind."

don't be so naive flaps. They bought the land on the cheap as it was greenbelt. they wouldn't have been able to afford it if it was in a residential zone.

flaps Posted on 19/10/2011 22:50
The Battle for Dale Farm

"flaps you just said that you didn't think they needed permission in this case."

No I didn't. I said they should have been given permission.

flaps Posted on 19/10/2011 22:51
The Battle for Dale Farm

..but they're not developing land with a view to increasing the value of property on it boromart.

youngson19 Posted on 19/10/2011 22:51
The Battle for Dale Farm

Flaps I know you mean well but "minorities" should not get "special treatment" over the majority.

To do so would just alienate the said "minorities" even more.

And tensions would rise and distrust from the frustrated majority.

It's just human nature, hence why this whole mess will never be resolved.

Regards
J

flaps Posted on 19/10/2011 22:52
The Battle for Dale Farm

"The travellers sense of entitlement and refusal to abide by the law has robbed the law abiding citizens of Basildon of 8million pounds worth of services. Selfish scum!"

They didn't choose to take it to court, that was the councils decision.

Throwing words like scum about does you no favours.

flaps Posted on 19/10/2011 22:55
The Battle for Dale Farm

Travellers do need special treatment because they are a special case. If they weren't we wouldn't be talking about them.

I don't like their lifestyle or the way they behave, I want them to be helped to be productive members of society.

We won't achieve this through the courts or by mass evictions.

If you think what has happened today has solved anything then that truly is naive.


Boromart Posted on 19/10/2011 22:55
The Battle for Dale Farm

my example wasnt to do with increasing the value of property. It was to do with having a property that I couldn't afford.

I can't afford 1.6mill on a 5 bed house in a 3 acre plot.

I can afford to buy 3 acres of greenbelt and build a 300k self build on it.....but that would be illegal and I would expect it to be demolished. You seem to think if I was a traveller I should be allowed to keep it.

flaps Posted on 19/10/2011 22:58
The Battle for Dale Farm

No I don't think a traveller should be able to build a 1.6 million house on greenbelt land at a fraction of the cost.

Boromart Posted on 19/10/2011 23:01
The Battle for Dale Farm

I didn't call them 'scum', I called them 'selfish scum'. They thought that they could tie the council up in its own red tape and at some point in the last 10 years they must have figured that it was costing them a fortune and expected they might drop it because of the cost....the council would have been negligent in its duty to let them have planning permission. Blaming the council for doing its job properly is silly. Especially as you are saying that those breaking the law should be allowed to do so, and eventually others would be encouraged to do the same.


I wonder if they ever paid council tax on those properties?

Boromart Posted on 19/10/2011 23:04
The Battle for Dale Farm

no you think 51 families of travellers should be able to set up home in a 3 acre plot for minimal cost.

Should me and 50 of my friends be allowed to buy greenbelt land and build 51 homes for cheap? Collectively saving a lot more than my single mansion example.

Or is that just a bonus that ethnic minorities get?

youngson19 Posted on 19/10/2011 23:04
The Battle for Dale Farm

"If you think what has happened today has solved anything then that truly is naive."

I don't think that, what has been done today will solves the long term problems because nothing will, no matter who it is Flaps you will always have "minorities" groups demanding "Special treatment" or supporters of said "minorities" groups demanding "special treatment".

I mean whatever happened to when Rome?

Anyways if I had my way they would be all sent back to the Republic of Ireland.

[:O]

Regards
J

flaps Posted on 19/10/2011 23:05
The Battle for Dale Farm

So you didnt call them scum..you called them scum? Ok

I don't think Basildon council has done its proper job. If the proper job of a council was to turn down all retrospective planning permission requests, then they would never be granted.

flaps Posted on 19/10/2011 23:06
The Battle for Dale Farm

"Should me and 50 of my friends be allowed to buy greenbelt land and build 51 homes for cheap? Collectively saving a lot more than my single mansion example."

If you have 50 homeless friends and that's the only way you can have a settled dwelling then I wouldn't be opposed to you doing this, no.

flaps Posted on 19/10/2011 23:07
The Battle for Dale Farm

"Anyways if I had my way they would be all sent back to the Republic of Ireland"

Didn't you say I had 'lost all credibility' when I said this exact thing to borotmt?

Boromart Posted on 19/10/2011 23:07
The Battle for Dale Farm

flaps, you must be getting tired. I called them 'SELFISH scum', not 'scum'

" If the proper job of a council was to turn down all retrospective planning permission requests, then they would never be granted."
The proper job of a council is NOT to turn down ALL retrospective planning permissions. But turning down all GREENBELT retrospective planning permissions IS part of its job.

flaps Posted on 19/10/2011 23:08
The Battle for Dale Farm

Bizarre

100Rod100 Posted on 19/10/2011 23:09
The Battle for Dale Farm

"Travellers do need special treatment because they are a special case. If they weren't we wouldn't be talking about them"

on the basis of what? why do they need 'special treatment'?

Boromart Posted on 19/10/2011 23:10
The Battle for Dale Farm

"If you have 50 homeless friends and that's the only way you can have a settled dwelling "

But they were offered council homes, so that doesn't apply. It's rubbish to suggest they would have been homeless. Council homes or as the name traveller suggests for many of them their home is where they metaphorically decide to lay their hats.

flaps Posted on 19/10/2011 23:11
The Battle for Dale Farm

"on the basis of what? why do they need 'special treatment'?"

On the basis that they're an ethnic group with chronic health and education problems and are out of step with society as a whole, facing prejudice wherever they go.

I want them to become health, educated taxpaying members of society.

You want them kicked off scalp yards at great expense.

youngson19 Posted on 19/10/2011 23:12
The Battle for Dale Farm

Is Borotmt a "protected minority" looking for "special" treatment?

What was that Flaps? No he isn't? Yeah I thought not.

XXXXXXin Clown [:o)]


Regards
J

bill_door Posted on 19/10/2011 23:12
The Battle for Dale Farm

"If you have 50 homeless friends and that's the only way you can have a settled dwelling then I wouldn't be opposed to you doing this, no."

Homeless friends who have been offered accomodation elsewhere? Or homeless friends who 'allegedly' own property in Ireland and are listed as company directors? Or homeless friends who drive some pretty nice cars despite being poor?

I appreciate your sentiments flaps, but these aren't a group of poor people with nothing going for them, despite the sob stories.

Although I do agree that this won't be the end of it.

flaps Posted on 19/10/2011 23:13
The Battle for Dale Farm

"But they were offered council homes, so that doesn't apply. It's rubbish to suggest they would have been homeless"

Were they offered before they developed the Greenbelt part of dale farm, or when it became a news story?

bill_door Posted on 19/10/2011 23:14
The Battle for Dale Farm

"I want them to become health, educated taxpaying members of society."

Do you? 'Cause they don't want that.[:D]

flaps Posted on 19/10/2011 23:15
The Battle for Dale Farm

"XXXXXXin Clown"

Grat stuff.

100Rod100 Posted on 19/10/2011 23:15
The Battle for Dale Farm

"on the basis of what? why do they need 'special treatment'?"

On the basis that they're an ethnic group with chronic health and education problems and are out of step with society as a whole, facing prejudice wherever they go.

I want them to become health, educated taxpaying members of society.

You want them kicked off scalp yards at great expense"

what an absolute crock of sh1t - surely youre just fishing for bites?

all the problems you perceive them to have are down to their own ideals and 'way of life'.

ffs man we have pensioners who have worked all their lives, fought in wars and paid into the system who are too poor to eat and darent put the heating on as theyre skint.

we should be looking closer to home than trying to help a load of thieving inbred gypsy tw@ts.

if it concerns you so much buy some land and look after them [rle]

flaps Posted on 19/10/2011 23:16
The Battle for Dale Farm

I know they don't want that bill, not yet. And they're no closer to wanting it after today.

flaps Posted on 19/10/2011 23:17
The Battle for Dale Farm

"surely youre just fishing for bites?"

Yeah definitely.

100Rod100 Posted on 19/10/2011 23:20
The Battle for Dale Farm

why should they be provided for.

present some decent arguement other than the drivel previously.

ethnic minority my 4rse - they're just scummy freeloading tinkers, who would steal your eyes to see over the weekend. they want all the trappings and benefits of living in a modern society, yet do no want to pay for them.

Boromart Posted on 19/10/2011 23:21
The Battle for Dale Farm

"On the basis that they're an ethnic group with chronic health and education problems and are out of step with society as a whole, facing prejudice wherever they go."

Traveller isn't an ETHNICITY. They are a subset of Irish people. Many Irish people live in England as law abiding, tax-paying fully integrated members of British society. It is a sub-culture not an ethnicity.

"with chronic health and education problems and are out of step with society as a whole, facing prejudice wherever they go."
This description fits better with say, those English people who come from the most impoverished backgrounds. Should we allow 50 families from Blue Hall to buy 3 acres of green belt and build whatever they like without planning permission in an attempt to make them better educated and more healthy?

I don't think it would work.

Boromart Posted on 19/10/2011 23:22
The Battle for Dale Farm

"Were they offered before they developed the Greenbelt part of dale farm, or when it became a news story?"
They could apply for council homes like ANY British ciitizen, or EU citizen living here.

flaps Posted on 19/10/2011 23:25
The Battle for Dale Farm

"Traveller isn't an ETHNICITY"

I must have misread the census I filled in earlier this year.

flaps Posted on 19/10/2011 23:26
The Battle for Dale Farm

"I don't think it would work"

I don't think it would happen.

Boromart Posted on 19/10/2011 23:29
The Battle for Dale Farm

Does ethnic imply physical/genetic characteristics or is it simply another word for a cultural group? I agree they are a culture.

youngson19 Posted on 19/10/2011 23:30
The Battle for Dale Farm

Last comment on this as it is late.

Thanks god your in the minority on this issue Flaps and to be honest I don't care about what those in the minority have to say.

[^][^]

Night all,

Regards
J

Boromart Posted on 19/10/2011 23:31
The Battle for Dale Farm

it shouldn't happen for 50 families from Blue Hall and it shouldn't happen for 50 families from Irish origin that live in caravans.

flaps Posted on 19/10/2011 23:34
The Battle for Dale Farm

"and to be honest I don't care about what those in the minority have to say. "

Let's hope you're always with the majority [^]

youngson19 Posted on 19/10/2011 23:35
The Battle for Dale Farm

Always will be sunshine don't worry about me! [^]

Take care now Flaps, nice debate.

Regards
J

flaps Posted on 19/10/2011 23:36
The Battle for Dale Farm

"Does ethnic imply physical/genetic characteristics or is it simply another word for a cultural group? I agree they are a culture."

Take it up with the ONS.

100Rod100 Posted on 19/10/2011 23:44
The Battle for Dale Farm

you still havent been able to present one decent logical reason as to why they should get special treatment flaps.

flaps Posted on 19/10/2011 23:48
The Battle for Dale Farm

I'm sorry rod.

boro_in_la Posted on 19/10/2011 23:52
The Battle for Dale Farm

they are already getting special treatment. If you or I didn't tax and insure our our car or tried to nick electricity from the grid the cops wold be round as fast as sh*t off a shovel never mind the bailiffs.

100Rod100 Posted on 19/10/2011 23:58
The Battle for Dale Farm

no need to apologise.

im just wondering why youre bubbling on like a bust rsehole for no decent reason tbh.

Doink Posted on 20/10/2011 00:20
The Battle for Dale Farm

"they're an ethnic group with chronic health and education problems"

So their education problems are nothing to do with taking them out of free state education at 14?

Senor_Chester Posted on 20/10/2011 01:05
The Battle for Dale Farm

Oh dear. Just reading through and I'm sure you won't, but Flaps, your making yourself look increasingly stupid on this thread, you've got to give it up!

100Rod100 Posted on 20/10/2011 01:51
The Battle for Dale Farm

"I've pulled facts from the House of Lords that shows that 90% of gypsy planning applications are rejected, whereas only 20% of planning applications as a whole are rejected"

a manipulation of statistics if ever there were.