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Adi_Dem Posted on 07/04/2008 15:21
Interesting - our revival

This season I think everyone acknowledges has been an extremely disappointing one. We have not moved forward and, at best, have stood still.

As most will know, I've never been 'on board' as far as the appointment of Southgate is concerned. Equally, and this may surprise a few, I was not behind the appointment of McClaren either - for very similar reasons. I have always maintained though that Southgate, once appointed, deserved the benefit of the doubt and time to shape the squad and club in the way he wanted. 3 seasons is really what any new manager deserves.

Someone said to me yesterday that since the Arsenal game we've been in excellent form and my first reaction was to disagree - but then I had a look.

Before the Arsenal game I was extremely worried. I thought we were relegation certainties. We had picked up 11 points from 15 games which is, frankly, an awful return.

Then the Arsenal game came and the team turned everything on it's head. Since that game we have played 18 (inclusive) and picked up 24 points. That's roughly half a season and would represent (if applied over a full season) our best points tally since that 7th placed finish (I think).

I know that isn't how it works and those 15 games can't be discounted but at the same time it does show a trend that somehow seems to have started against Arsenal or maybe the game before away to Reading. 24 points from 18 is a decent return. Add a more settled Tuncay, a more experienced Aliadiere, a fit Mido and Alves along with a couple of good summer signings and there is something to build on here.

I have absolutely no doubt that certain posters will attack this as fickle, blinkered, naive etc etc but the reality is that Southgate, when you look at it this way, did turn us around when we weren't picking up points. I'm not convinced by him but no-one will persuade me that he doesn't deserve another season, no-one will persuade me that we are a team in crisis and no one will persuade me that we are relegation no hopers.

What will happen is that we'll end up safe with either a game or two to go. We'll finish around 13th/14th and end up 6-7 points above the relegation places.

sasboro1 Posted on 07/04/2008 15:29
Interesting - our revival

what revival? we have won 1 out of the last 7 and that was 1-0 at home to derby or won 2 out of last 10 if you include extra time fluke against sheff utd. we are now 14th below sunderland and newcastle who have both won 3 on the bounce. now that is a proper revival.
we have to keep it up against the rest of the teams this season.

the return of form from boateng has been the key in making the midfield more solid.

Adi_Dem Posted on 07/04/2008 15:30
Interesting - our revival

What revival? Read the post Sas, the revival I'm referring to is in there.

Does the fact that in the last 7 games we've played Liverpool, Villa, Arsenal, Chelsea away and Man Utd at home not make that a fairly decent and predictable return?

onthemap Posted on 07/04/2008 15:32
Interesting - our revival

The pain of being so wrong will mean he'll never in a million years acknowledge anything remotely near the facts.

fatharrywhite Posted on 07/04/2008 15:32
Interesting - our revival

if we won our next 3 i'm sure you'd still come up with some bollox about why it isnt a revival.

you're just a boring charicature of yourself now and not worth bothering with

fatharrywhite Posted on 07/04/2008 15:33
Interesting - our revival

and the other bullS*** merchant joins the fray as well.

bet you were gutted about yesterday

easycomeeasygo Posted on 07/04/2008 15:33
Interesting - our revival

sas i really wish you woud go away someties! ffs!!! we've played utd, chelsea, arsenal, villa, in 4 of the seven you mention on every thread!!!! bored! good post adi

onthemap Posted on 07/04/2008 15:33
Interesting - our revival

It's 1 in 7 mate, I don't award the points.

Adi_Dem Posted on 07/04/2008 15:33
Interesting - our revival

Brilliant response mappie. What, exactly, am I wrong about?

sasboro1 Posted on 07/04/2008 15:34
Interesting - our revival

"Does the fact that in the last 7 games we've played Liverpool, Villa, Arsenal, Chelsea away and Man Utd at home not make that a fairly decent and predictable return?"

ah you mean getting 3 points from those games? not really that brilliant. same as winning 1 and losing 4. it is good to pick up the odd point against some of these teams but not realy a revival.

we actually picked up more points in the previous 7 before that

sasboro1 Posted on 07/04/2008 15:37
Interesting - our revival

"and the other bullS*** merchant joins the fray as well.

bet you were gutted about yesterday"

not at all, just pointing out this isnt really a revival 6 points from 7 games compared to 12 points from the previous 7 games

easycomeeasygo Posted on 07/04/2008 15:37
Interesting - our revival

you are so negative its scary sas! if you dont see improvement then you're thick as F*** and know absolutely nothing

Adi_Dem Posted on 07/04/2008 15:38
Interesting - our revival

Did I mention a revival over the last 7 games Sas? Didn't think so. Why 7 games though? It's fairly arbritrary. Could it be because we have only won 1 of those 7 (let's ignore the fact that the top 4 were played in those 7 because that doesn't suit)?

sasboro1 Posted on 07/04/2008 15:38
Interesting - our revival

i was comparing form.

so when did this revival start?

if only we could do you old trick of discountiung the first few games like under smac [;)]

Adi_Dem Posted on 07/04/2008 15:39
Interesting - our revival

Erm, read the first post dozy!

mwelolo Posted on 07/04/2008 15:39
Interesting - our revival

It's a little too early to be talking about a revival, we are still in a poor position.We continue to raise our game against the big teams and look poor against others.There is nothing new in this it is now our established pattern.

easycomeeasygo Posted on 07/04/2008 15:41
Interesting - our revival

the revival started against asenal at the riverside dumb ass!!! read the posts before sticking your two penneth of negativity in the mix

sasboro1 Posted on 07/04/2008 15:42
Interesting - our revival

haha! a revival and we have dropped down to 14th! this is our lowest leageu placing for about 3 months! Jesus!

"the revival started against asenal at the riverside dumb ass!!! read the posts before sticking your two penneth of negativity in the mix"

so we won 1 game (derby) out of 4 and it is classed as a revival?

BoroInLondon Posted on 07/04/2008 15:43
Interesting - our revival

We could've quite easily won all those games, but we didn't. What you muppets are conveniently forgetting is the performances in those games, where we were the better team against Chelsea, Villa, Liverpool and United, and were 5 minutes from being the first team to beat Arsenal at the Emirates this season.

Please don't let that get in the way of your agenda though, you pathetic morons.

sasboro1 Posted on 07/04/2008 15:44
Interesting - our revival

"and were 5 minutes from being the first team to beat Arsenal at the Emirates this season."

Now isnt that somehting smac use to say?

but there might have been a team within a minute of beating them

mwelolo Posted on 07/04/2008 15:46
Interesting - our revival

We may yet qualify for Europe, in the "could have won league" What a fool!

onthemap Posted on 07/04/2008 15:46
Interesting - our revival

We're hunting high flying Sunderland down.

The_same_as_before Posted on 07/04/2008 15:48
Interesting - our revival

I'm quite happy.

mwelolo Posted on 07/04/2008 15:49
Interesting - our revival

The same people would probably slaughter geordies for talking about Newcastle's revival.

BoroInLondon Posted on 07/04/2008 15:50
Interesting - our revival

I'm not sure, but then i'm not hat bothered.

I'm just pointing out that it was a very good performance, part of what has been our revival.

easycomeeasygo Posted on 07/04/2008 15:51
Interesting - our revival

i think we have won more than one game since arsenal at home sas could be wrong like??

sasboro1 Posted on 07/04/2008 15:54
Interesting - our revival

sorry missread thought you meant arsenal away. if the revival happened when we beat arsenal at home then why are we barely any higher up the league and lost at home to reading,cardiff,everton, west ham. only won 3 home games since arsenal at home.

ccole Posted on 07/04/2008 15:58
Interesting - our revival

Were we not in the bottow three and 3 points adfift of Bolton when we beat Arsenal at home?

If that was the case, 9 points clear of that position now must be an improvement, even in your strange world SAS?

Durham_Red Posted on 07/04/2008 16:01
Interesting - our revival

no one's saying that we haven't had bad results in this "revival" or that our form during the "revival" has been spectacular.

But as stated, 11 points from the first 15 games, then 24 points from the next 18 is definitely an improvement.

Lefty Posted on 07/04/2008 16:02
Interesting - our revival

I'm surprised anyone can disagree with that first post.

karembeu_ca Posted on 07/04/2008 16:04
Interesting - our revival

sorry ccole, thats not the way it works.

you MUST NOT admit any positives that could be gleaned. frankly its all childish and stupid now. was a good wind-up, and one that got some good debate going, which is what a decent wind-up is all about... and to generate clicks for Rob of course [;)]

its just boring and repetitive now.

Adi_Dem Posted on 07/04/2008 16:06
Interesting - our revival

I agree Lefty, but then I would!

I was just trying to offer a bit of balance but we're back to the polarised views without any grey areas. With the likes of mappie and Sas you either think we're awful and in crisis or we're fantastic and they take it to those extremes.

I struggle to see how you mis-interpreted the first post Sas - unless you didn't read it and responded to the thread title, which would explain a lot.

Bandy Posted on 07/04/2008 16:09
Interesting - our revival

Scoea: You keep dishing out praise for gareth nearly every week now yet you remain unconvinced by him. What exactly will it take for you to be convinced?

onthemap Posted on 07/04/2008 16:14
Interesting - our revival

Scoea wants to be able to say "I told you so" whatever pans out.

sasboro1 Posted on 07/04/2008 16:15
Interesting - our revival

FFS! we are 14th what revival! bloody ell some people!! sunderland and newcastle have won 3 games on the bounce. now that is a revival!not now when we are at our lowest league position for 3 months

"Scoea: You keep dishing out praise for gareth nearly every week now yet you remain unconvinced by him. What exactly will it take for you to be convinced?"

It is the old double edged sword. he can be right and wrong on it to cover all bets

Notice he is very quiet of rockembach now. will he admit he was wrong about him? he hasnt been that good as he?

karembeu_ca Posted on 07/04/2008 16:17
Interesting - our revival

adi, its all about which facts you focus on.

your fact about a points haul in a specific period is valid, and shows some improvement. it's also just as valid to point out we are below Sunderland, have lots fewer points and goals than last season, and have been as inconsistent as ever (we have been since the late 70's when I started going mind, not sure how that is a new thing).

anything other than actual facts is just interpretations and perceptions. My perception is that while we have played badly many times, there have been enough good performances, and some very good ones, that we should have some hope. even Everton and Villa were games we should have won, as was Liverpool - the FACT is we lost them, but you cant discount the performances (and at least most on here dont).

its been a poor season, whatever the excuses, and we will be better next season. I have no doubts about that, just as I had no doubt we would stay up. it seems to be an insult to call someone positive on here these days - so be it.

grantus Posted on 07/04/2008 16:40
Interesting - our revival

"sunderland and newcastle have won 3 games on the bounce. now that is a revival!"

Against who exactly?

We have some games of that level coming up. How do you think we'll do?

Spurs away could go either way, after that I expect us to go on a a little run.

onthemap Posted on 07/04/2008 16:43
Interesting - our revival

"We have some games of that level coming up. How do you think we'll do?"

Like Reading say?

sasboro1 Posted on 07/04/2008 16:47
Interesting - our revival

and winning at villa and beting fulham by more than 1 goal [;)]

Adi_Dem Posted on 07/04/2008 18:26
Interesting - our revival

Firstly, I'll deal with those that don't really want to engage me on a sensible and reasonable level:


It's only you mappie that likes to be 'proven' right on this messageboard. It doesn't bother me one iota. It genuinely seems to bother you, for whatever reason. I give Gareth criticism and praise in equal measure - when it is deserved. That's not hedging my bets, it's calling it as I see it or to use a football cliche judging him one game at a time. If you have a problem with that then tough. For the record I can never be 'right' about Gareth because I genuinely can't make a definitive judgment on him. He impresses and bewilders me in equal measure.


I'll spell out what I meant by revival because you clearly can't grasp it. We have gone from 11 points in 15 games to 24 in 18. That is a significant upturn following a disastrous start. I hane not, not once, said that that is good, that 14th is acceptable or that we shouldn't be doing better. I am simply saying we turned around a bad start.

I haven't mentioned Rocky because he's been suspended. I rarely start threads about him and nobody else has because he isn't playing. It really is that simple. Has my opinion of him changed? Nope.

Now the others:


You're dead right and I don't know the answer. I've been praising him recently because he's deserved it. Others see it as fickle that I praise him even though I don't rate him as the man for the job, I just see it as taking a reasonable stance and not being stuck with the same entrenched view. As the first post outlines he's done reasonably well since before Christmas. I guess it will take a season of genuine progress for me to believe in him because this hasn't been it I'm afraid.


Of course you're right, you can use any time period to back up any argument you choose. The reason, as I said above, that I posted this was because of what someone said to me i.e. that we've improved from a terrible start and picked up since the Arsenal game. It has been a poor season. All I am saying here is that there has been an upturn, there are reasons to be positive and to think that next season will be better.

It does seem that any positivity is jumped upon nowadays on this board and that's frankly pathetic. I can see the negatives, I can criticise the club but I can also recognise the things we can build upon and the things we are getting right.

sasboro1 Posted on 07/04/2008 18:27
Interesting - our revival

*cough* - below sunderland sunderland and 14th in the table. i thought for am inute i had the table upside down.

karembeu_ca Posted on 07/04/2008 18:29
Interesting - our revival


you need to start drinking decaf sas [;)]

sasboro1 Posted on 07/04/2008 18:32
Interesting - our revival

its all relative. where is this time point that scoea keeps changing to suit his situation. i give him the form in the lat 7 games compared to the 7 games before and he is quick to dismiss it as it does not fit in with his bubble. He tries to dismiss it like a pollitician would isntead of takign the stats on board.

Why not have the timepoint when southgate toook over, who picks the time point.
was the time point after or before rocky was dropped or baoteng came back in?

But hey i am sure sunderland have been on the same revival as us too

karembeu_ca Posted on 07/04/2008 18:35
Interesting - our revival

i dont know sas, picking a point about half-way through our current season, when a big result occurred, seems pretty logical to me.

sorry that logic falls outside *your* bubble [:)]

Adi_Dem Posted on 07/04/2008 18:36
Interesting - our revival

As I say sas you're simply not capable of engaging me on a sensible level. Here's a suggestion - read my contributions to this thread, they answer everything you have just asked. Next, look at your contributions and tell me who it is that is spinning things here. Here's a clue - why the last 7 games and not the last 8? Or 9?

sasboro1 Posted on 07/04/2008 18:39
Interesting - our revival

stop patronising people scoea. it gets boring after a while.

So whats happened to the rocky fanclub. you gave me a lot of stick over him and i have been proved right that he wouldnt be missed.

karembeu_ca Posted on 07/04/2008 18:51
Interesting - our revival

so, his missing in 2 games proves something, but an analysis of 18 games vs 15 games is not proof of anything!

what colour is the sky in your world sas?

mwelolo Posted on 07/04/2008 18:56
Interesting - our revival

"It does seem that any positivity is jumped upon nowadays on this board and that's frankly pathetic."

This from a man who has previously admitted to creating deliberately provocative posts to elicit the very response he purports to despise.

There are clear poles on this board, always have been as long as I have known it.

The happy clappers are every bit as quick to jump on and ridicule whatever is perceived as negativity .

Adi_Dem Posted on 07/04/2008 19:28
Interesting - our revival

Like when mwelolo? When have I admitted that?

Adi_Dem Posted on 07/04/2008 19:29
Interesting - our revival

Sas - have I not just answered that same but slightly differently worded question?

mwelolo Posted on 07/04/2008 19:41
Interesting - our revival

On at least two occassions I recall, though I don't remember dates, you admitting you had created posts to provoke a predictable response.I sepcifically remember identifying it as positivity trolling on one occassion.

Adi_Dem Posted on 07/04/2008 19:44
Interesting - our revival

Not me I'm afraid, I think you have me confused with someone else. The only post that came close to it was one that i posted about Downing not actually having signed his contract. I admitted to being pedantic and wondering whether the reaction would be the same as that when it became evident that McClaren hadn't actually signed his deal. That's it though, honestly.

mwelolo Posted on 07/04/2008 19:45
Interesting - our revival

It most certainly was you, as Scoea.

Adi_Dem Posted on 07/04/2008 19:51
Interesting - our revival

Nope, you're wrong I'm afraid. I know you're wrong because I genuinely don't do what you are accusing me of and never have.

mwelolo Posted on 07/04/2008 19:54
Interesting - our revival

Oh yes you have.

BoroFur Posted on 07/04/2008 19:55
Interesting - our revival

Swift edit !!

Apologies I'm a complete to$$pot for failing to grasp how to calculate average points per game !!

Big_Shot Posted on 07/04/2008 20:00
Interesting - our revival

No maths check needed. He actually says:

11 points from 15 games
24 points from 18 games

Big_Shot Posted on 07/04/2008 20:01
Interesting - our revival


BoroFur Posted on 07/04/2008 20:02
Interesting - our revival

Big Shot - I even had a calculator at my disposal too !!

Thank fook my boss doesn't read this board.

Big_Shot Posted on 07/04/2008 20:05
Interesting - our revival

It just didn't look right, thats why I went back to look at the first post. We were deep in it prior to the Arsenal game, but since then we have certainly been a lot more consistant at picking up points. Still not good enough though, but a definite improvement.

grantus Posted on 07/04/2008 20:18
Interesting - our revival

Interestingly enough, it it was around the same time as the return of Pogatetz and Huth. Never mind the return of Tuncay and Aliadiere.

Not a coincidence.

grantus Posted on 07/04/2008 20:19
Interesting - our revival

Injuries cost us dear at the start of the season.

junkyard_angel Posted on 07/04/2008 20:22
Interesting - our revival

24 points from 18 games would equal 50.6 points for a season.

BoroFur Posted on 07/04/2008 20:26
Interesting - our revival

Junkyard Angel - enough for 10th / 11th place this season.
Target for next season should 57 points. 1.5 points per game or win one lose one. We're good enough for that.

Adi_Dem Posted on 07/04/2008 21:38
Interesting - our revival

What did you say BoroFur out of interest?

mwelolo - let's just leave it at that then. You can think what you want, I know the truth and unless you can prove otherwise that's that.

grantus - Tuncay's form also began to pick up at that time. Wasn't his first goal against Reading away??

grantus Posted on 07/04/2008 21:40
Interesting - our revival

Back line injuries anda brand new forward line.

Surely they are the main reason for the bad start. Southgate did what he could, but he's no magician.

Adi_Dem Posted on 07/04/2008 21:41
Interesting - our revival

And a rubbish midfield [;)]

grantus Posted on 07/04/2008 21:42
Interesting - our revival

Centre midfield.

mwelolo Posted on 07/04/2008 21:45
Interesting - our revival

I think it is probably as well to leave it. My memory is very clear but as I suspected I am not going to be able to jog yours.

Adi_Dem Posted on 07/04/2008 21:53
Interesting - our revival

As is mine, as is mine. Is it really that important anyway? You say that I may have done it a couple of times - if I have (which I dispute), it hardly makes me a serial troll or fisherman, does it? Do you accept that, in the main, I just post what i genuinely believe?

mwelolo Posted on 07/04/2008 21:56
Interesting - our revival

Yes I suspect you do.

karembeu_ca Posted on 07/04/2008 21:58
Interesting - our revival

mwelo, I quite readily admit to posting in the same vein as the negative trolls, but that's all that seems to get any response on here.

Adi_Dem Posted on 07/04/2008 22:02
Interesting - our revival

Good, well let's leave it then.

mwelolo Posted on 07/04/2008 22:03
Interesting - our revival

I've left it.

Adi_Dem Posted on 07/04/2008 22:04
Interesting - our revival

Hells bells, can't you just leave it?

mwelolo Posted on 07/04/2008 22:06
Interesting - our revival

I told you I have!

Adi_Dem Posted on 07/04/2008 22:07
Interesting - our revival

Bloody hell just leave it man!

mwelolo Posted on 07/04/2008 22:09
Interesting - our revival

How many times do I need to tell you? I have.

Adi_Dem Posted on 07/04/2008 22:10
Interesting - our revival

This really is tiresome.....

Nah, I'm going to leave it now!!

mwelolo Posted on 07/04/2008 22:12
Interesting - our revival

I am glad to see that, I left it some time ago!

TheSmogMonster Posted on 07/04/2008 22:14
Interesting - our revival

FFS leave it!

BoroFur Posted on 07/04/2008 22:14
Interesting - our revival

Scoea, I divided 11 into 15 instead of the other way around !!
That made average points per game exactly the same as 24 points from 18 games.

What a numpty.

Adi_Dem Posted on 07/04/2008 22:21
Interesting - our revival

Ahhhh, I see. I didn't bother doing the maths to be honest. It was just that the more I thought about the Arsenal game, the more pivotal I remember it being. We were in an appalling position with a real problem and it did suddenly start to pick up after that and the stats seem to show that.

What it shows is that there is something here to build on. Something to be positive about. We all know our position isn't great, that we have a number of problems and that the manager keeps on making mistakes but there is also the positive side as well.

myboro Posted on 07/04/2008 22:23
Interesting - our revival

Thing is picking when is very significant. Say for example we half the current season 16.5 games per half
First half 17 Games - 17 Points
Second half 16 games - 18 points

Not much revival to be had just the abuse of statistics to try and prove your perception of our improvement.

Adi_Dem Posted on 07/04/2008 22:26
Interesting - our revival

Of course picking when is significant but there is a good reason why I went for the Arsenal game - we were in dire straits before that game and I do remember it suddenly turning around and that game being a watershed. I may be wrong but it's how I perceived it.

myboro Posted on 07/04/2008 22:30
Interesting - our revival

Since the arsenal game we have won 5 games - two of those against Derby. No revival at all. Generally the same results if a little more fight against the big boys.

Adi_Dem Posted on 07/04/2008 22:48
Interesting - our revival

As I say, I disagree. I was including the Arsenal game so that gives you 6 wins in 18 games as compared to 2 wins in 15 before that. A much higher win ratio. In terms of points we improved significantly. In terms of league position we went from the bottom 3 to 9 points away. Surely you must acknowledge that as an improvement. Wins against Derby still count don't they?

myboro Posted on 08/04/2008 00:43
Interesting - our revival

Well 17 games in we had played everyone except Pompey I believe. Seems to me including the one time we have won back to back games alters the statistical significance. We started this season badly despite a seemingly good fixture list. Ended a two month run without a win with back to back victories and then went back to being generally poor.

We went out of the FA cup to lower league opposition and managed to become even more inconsistent than ever. No revival yet but at least Bolton and Fulham have actually made our life a bit earier.

I actually think you are confusing the belief that came with back to back victories in early december with an actual revival.
Up to that point we had gone two months without a win.

If your point is we are better now than the utter S***e in autum then I can agree. If your trying to make out we have done well since christmas then you are deluded.

zaphod Posted on 08/04/2008 06:51
Interesting - our revival

We're only 4 points behind last season & there's every chance, given remaining fixtures, that we'll equal last season's total. Considering how really terrible we were earlier in the season, that's not too bad.

Actually, myboro, in the last 16 games we've played the top 4 five times (Liverpool twice), 3 of them away from home, so even on that basis, we've done better in the second half. I don't think anyone, least of all Adi scoea, would dispute that overall it's been a disappointing season, but the green shoots of recovery can be discerned.

onthemap Posted on 08/04/2008 08:36
Interesting - our revival

For someone not bothered about being proved right you don't half spend a lot of time trying to be.

Adi_Dem Posted on 08/04/2008 08:58
Interesting - our revival

It's called debate and discussion mappie, you should try it some time. MyBoro has made some extremely valid points in a constructive way and I have replied to them with my view. You, on the other hand, generally behave like a child. I think I must be having some kind of memory problem though because I am sure that it is you rather than me that posts 'I told you so' threads with alarming regularity. Oh well.

MyBoro - I know exactly what you're saying and you're right in many ways. I think I said in my original post that I don't think we've "done well". It's been a bad season. All I am saying is that, for me, I remember the Arsenal game as a turning point. Of course you may disagree but it's just my view of it. The reason I feel that way is that I specifically remember thinking that we would lose that game and wehere that would leave us. I was extremely worried.

When we won, and again this may just be me, I felt the players started to believe again and our performances improved. As I say, this thread came about because a friend said what he did and my immediate reaction was that he was wrong. It turns out he wasn't.

Taking the Arsenal game as a starting point is arguably fairly arbritrary and the point that you choose can be used to back up any argument you care to make. As I say, it was just my perception of that game and what that win did for us that got me thinking.

onthemap Posted on 08/04/2008 09:05
Interesting - our revival

Debate and discussion is a different thing entirely scoea. What you're doing is more commonly known as 'covering all the bases'.

How's Rocky doing btw? Still worldbeating?

Adi_Dem Posted on 08/04/2008 09:06
Interesting - our revival

Explain how I am covering all of the bases. Explain in which way this is not debate and discussion.

He's suspended mappie. If you got yourself to the match you may notice.

onthemap Posted on 08/04/2008 09:09
Interesting - our revival

Calm down Adi.
No ones laughing.

Adi_Dem Posted on 08/04/2008 09:14
Interesting - our revival

I'm laughing mappie. And I'm perfectly calm. How are you?

Here's another question for you (that you will no doubt fail to answer yet again. You say that I am "covering all bases" in terms of my view on Southgate so that I can be proven right. If that is the case, which it isn't, why did I not do the same thing with McClaren? I had a strong and unpopular opinion of McClaren and still do. Why did I not "cover all the bases" in respect of my opinion of him?

You make yourself look sillier every day, you really do.

onthemap Posted on 08/04/2008 09:21
Interesting - our revival

I'm not bothered whether you liked McClaren or hated him, whether Southgate is your best mate or Gibson confides in you.

Going into the Spurs match we're apparently be on the cusp of a great revival, if we lose you'll say we haven't turned the corner yet - as you predicted, if we win you'll say the revival is well under way, just as you pointed out, and a draw will just confirm everything you've ever posted.

S*** or get off the pot.

Adi_Dem Posted on 08/04/2008 09:27
Interesting - our revival

Pure tripe yet again mappie. Nice avoidance of the question again by the way. You'd be great on Strictly Come Dancing with all that side stepping.

Here's a couple more:

1. Where have I said that we are on the cusp of a great revivial?
2. When you say "get off the pot" am I to presume that I have to either say that I think Southgate is a great manager or clueless? Are those my only choices in your view?

Not everything is black and white mappie. As I've said repeatedly above Southgate impresses and bewilders me in equal measure. He is neither great nor clueless. What I have said is that, for me, he isn't the right man for the job but I will change that view if he genuinely improves us next season. I presume that if that were to happen ytou would accuse me of "covering all the bases" and being "fickle". And that just about sums you up, you can only deal with people that agree with you (and are therefore spot on) or are at the other end of the spectrum (and are therefore clueless) you cannot seem to grasp that not everything is black and white. That shows a basic lack of intellect.

heaton_mersey_boro Posted on 08/04/2008 09:37
Interesting - our revival

This dreadful 1 win in 7 I missing something?

A narrow defeat / excellent performance v. Liverpool

Reading - bobbins

Should have beaten Villa - bad finishing / ref howler cost us.

5 mins from beating Arsenal, another good performance.

Job done v. Derby - although once again poor.

Chelsea away - could/should have won. Bad finishing cost us again.

Man U - could have won, excellent performance.

How many other teams have come close to matching our record against the top 4? Yet because we have'nt won them all, we are shyte and it is all doom and gloom.

If it was 1 in 7 against Bolton, Fulham, B'ham etc then yes, agree we are shyte and be very worried.

onthemap Posted on 08/04/2008 09:39
Interesting - our revival

Like I said - covering all the bases. Presumably you think Newcastle and Sunderland are having great seasons?

kermit Posted on 08/04/2008 09:39
Interesting - our revival

What's more interesting, i think, is the stats on skysports.

In the first half of games we're like in 6th position in the league or something like that.

In the second half of games we're in the bottom 3.

Not sure what that says about Southgates half time team talks or the concentration of our players.

joebonano Posted on 08/04/2008 09:41
Interesting - our revival

i think you two should call it a day and resume hostilities tomorrow.

Boromart Posted on 08/04/2008 09:41
Interesting - our revival

I posted almost exactly the same on Sunday Adi.

In our last 19 league games - exactly half a season we have garnered 25 points. That as near as damn it includes playing every team once. It isn't skewed by playing a short series of games against 3 of the top 4 sides.

The start of the season we had Tuncay new to the prem; Ali had only started about 3 prem league games; Huth/Woody/Pogo/Bates all injured at CB; Yak on a sulk; Mido unfit then injured, Young also arrived injured. There were a lot of hurdles to overcome at the start.

Once we got some CBs fit we started to keep cleansheets. Once Ali started to get his strength up and Tuncay got used to the prem we started to score a couple more goals. With Alves now starting to show then we are far from a club in crisis, in fact with a couple of good midfield signings we will be heading in the right direction.

Adi_Dem Posted on 08/04/2008 09:44
Interesting - our revival

Maybe even fitness kermit? You're right - that is very interesting.

mappie - you just continue to prove that you are not prepared to engage on an adult, mature level. Your tactic of just repeating yourself and not answering questions betrays your basic lack of nous.In answer to your question - Sunderland are having a great season. Newcastle are having an awful season. I'm not sure why you ask though because I have never mentioned anyone having a great season. Not once.

woodymfc Posted on 08/04/2008 09:46
Interesting - our revival

Our mini revival of late started after the humiliating defeat off Cardiff, a few games leading upto this we were having some howlers

Today the signs are bright for the future

Brick_Tamland Posted on 08/04/2008 09:48
Interesting - our revival

Let's hope we go into the new season with as few players trying to adapt to the Premiership as possible and for a settled side.

This season hasn't been good but there are valid reasons why we haven't finished as high as we would have liked.

Who knows what we'll do next season and who we will sign in the summer. I think season tickets will continue to fall, though.

Boromart Posted on 08/04/2008 09:49
Interesting - our revival

I would say that since January the second our form hasn't been bad....other than Cardiff which was horrific. We have been competitive in every game bar that one in 3 months.

Adi ignore mappy, he doesn't do debate, he just posts arrogantly, sarcastically and belligerently until you give up.

Adi_Dem Posted on 08/04/2008 09:51
Interesting - our revival

Not sure about the Reading and Derby games though Boromart.

zaphod Posted on 08/04/2008 09:54
Interesting - our revival

There's a lot of work still to be done, though. Our performances against the top 4 are much better than against other teams in the top half. The stats show it:

Top 4: Played 8 6 Points 0.75 per game
Next 6: Played 10 5 Points 0.5 per game
Bottom Half: Played 15 24 Points 1.6 per game

We've lost every single home game played against the "Next 6". We'll never get anywhere is we don't improve that.

woodymfc Posted on 08/04/2008 09:56
Consistency and the will to fight

Boromart, lets get real here mate

The performances after the Cardiff howler v Villa, Arsenal,Chelsea and Man Utd say's it all

We only seem to be up for the big ones, thats why we are 14th in the league and those performances v Reading, Derby and a few others were real shockers also

myboro Posted on 08/04/2008 10:06
Interesting - our revival

So if we break the season down into groups of five games our revival will be clear
1-5 7pts
6-10 1pt
11-15 3pts
16-20 9pts
21-25 6pts
26-30 5pts
31-33 4pts

Just include the december games in any positive point you want to make it appears. I remember many talking early season about how well we played and not getting results/luck.

We ended a really poor patch with back to back wins. The rest of the season is reasonably poor with often good performances not leading to the full three points.

I do actually believe GS is holding us back and the first half / second half stats put up by Kermit do not help convince me he has a positive impact on games.

I think it will be interesting to see how we perform/approach the three remaining "winnable" home games.

Do a Cardiff/Reading in any and I think GS should resign. Very strange considering the game we just gave Man Utd.

onthemap Posted on 08/04/2008 10:08
Interesting - our revival

The first half/second half stats are meaningless, every other team has players bedding in or coming back from injury.

You can't talk about, say, Ali needing time in isolation.

Just read Boromarts post - apparently we're the only team with injuries or new players - clueless.

myboro Posted on 08/04/2008 10:14
Interesting - our revival

"The first half/second half stats are meaningless"

Mappy are you sure, the stats are first half v second half of each match. Not the main debate about a real or fictional revival.

sasboro1 Posted on 08/04/2008 10:17
Consistency and the will to fight

we are in our lowest league position for 12 weeks but apparently we are in a revival.

onthemap Posted on 08/04/2008 10:23
Consistency and the will to fight

I was referring to boromarts stats where the first half of the season were compared to the second half.

They basically amount to him saying we had players injured, despite every other team having injured players, and new players bedding in, again exactly the same as the rest of the league.

Then apparently we had bad luck against us, which is presumably a phenomenon exclusive to Teesside.

Just look at the table, points are awarded for wins and draws, we don't have many. It's not difficult.

Boromart Posted on 08/04/2008 10:25
Consistency and the will to fight

woody, thats partly -

mental - they want to prove against the big boys MORE than against the 'tier 2' lot.

tactical - against the big 4 they open up and have a go at us, leaving gaps. the tier 2 teams won't be so open, we got fdrustrated that we can't open them up commit more men forward and get sucker punched. see Everton game and Reading game!

squad size - we will always be inconsistent with such a small squad. We can't ride injuries and suspensions.

Boromart Posted on 08/04/2008 10:26
Interesting - our revival

myboro, I think part of our failure in second halfs is related to squad size. We don't have anyone who can come off the bench and turn a game...other teams do.

onthemap Posted on 08/04/2008 10:27
Interesting - our revival

Our failure in second halfs is down to not having a manager that can outhink the opposing teams.

Boromart Posted on 08/04/2008 10:27
Consistency and the will to fight

sas 12 weeks ago we were a couple of points above relegation, we are now 9. Explain that.

Adi_Dem Posted on 08/04/2008 10:29
Interesting - our revival

Real or fictional revival? It isn't fictional in any sense of the word. I posted a view that we turned a corner against Arsenal, I backed it up using our results. You take a different view using those same results in a different way, which is fine, but both are just opinions on a bunch of stats, neither truth nor fiction, simply interpretation.

Why not take it 6 games at a time? That is usually the number of games used when producing a 'form table'.

1-6 = 7 points
7-12 = 2 points
13-18 = 8 points
19-24 = 8 points
25-30 = 6 points
31-33 = 4 points (3 games left to play of this batch of 6)

The game 13-18 batch, coincidentally, includes the Arsenal game and the back to back wins you refer to. We did just as well in the next batch of 6, slightly worse in the following batch (which could have been fixed if they had turned up against Reading) and are on course to maintain that improvement in this 6, which included some pretty hard games.

There are two ways of looking at that. You could argue that we have improved after the awful start to the season and that it coincided with the time we played Arsenal, before which, for me, we were at our lowest ebb of the season. Alternatively, you could argue that we've actually been pretty consistent all season with the exception of us having a truly dreadful second batch of 6 games.

Either way I maintain that there are positives to draw upon whilst acknowledging that is has been a poor season, that Southgate needs to do better or needs to leave and that there are problems what we need to address this summer. As I say, we'll be safe with either a game or two to go. We'll finish around 13th/14th and end up 6-7 points above the relegation places. Not good enough but a long way better than I thought prior to that Arsenal game!!

I can't see anything particularly wrong in me saying that to be honest.

Boromart Posted on 08/04/2008 10:29
Interesting - our revival

oy tosspot you said "Just read Boromarts post - apparently we're the only team with injuries or new players - clueless." -- I didn't say we were teh only team with injuries or new players, but we do have one of the smallest squads of senior players and if you can name me another team that started the season with their 4th and 6th choice CBs as starters then I will admit your right...but you can't, so your not. Your CLUELESS!

kermit Posted on 08/04/2008 10:53
Interesting - our revival

Forget first half of the season stats and second half of the season stats, I think the major thing that needs looking at is first half of games and second half of games.

We seem to be a good first half team, yet in the second half of matches we're in the bottom 3.

What is the manager saying at half time?

Whats wrong with the players mentality that the second half is such an issue?

Is this fitness related?

Are managers simply motivating their players better at HT and changing things slightly and we're not reacting to the changes made by the opposition?

Is it a case of simply we lose concentration after the break?

I didn't realise these stats that we were such a decent first half team, I think this is what seriously needs addressing for next season (as well as our midfield).

Southgate needs to get his coaching staff together (possibly even some new attacking coaches/fitness coaches) and go through everything they're saying at HT.

It's probably also a case that we're not finishing teams off and we're allowing teams back into the game and as games go on we generally start retreating into our shells.

onthemap Posted on 08/04/2008 11:08
Interesting - our revival

If we were relegated you'd produce some stats to say we weren't.

Heres something to mull over, the league position is all you need to take into account, everything thing else is meaningless.

Every time you argue we have an injury, another side will do the same, every time you bunch 6 results together to prove one point another statistician will say you should be looking at eight games.

Just read the table and stop talking bollox, stats don't matter, the players win the points not a calculator.

myboro Posted on 08/04/2008 11:12
Interesting - our revival

"Real or fictional revival? It isn't fictional in any sense of the word."

Of course it is, if it was real it would have been sustained consistently from that point. IMO this season has been generally poor with a really crap two months in Autumn thrown in.

There has been no revival its fiction. Even your six games per group shows a really poor autumn is the only real thing to see in our season.

This is not an indication of our best season since the seventh place - as you put in your first post. We play well against the top teams - in paticular Arsenal who have only won once against us in the last three seasons. Although it was seven nil.

IMO the manager does not motivate/organise very well. Second half performances seem to back this up.

sasboro1 Posted on 08/04/2008 11:18
Interesting - our revival

the revival lasted 2 games because after we beat arsenal, luckily we had derby away after that. that is the only time this season we have won 2 games on the trot. then we lost 2 games at home to west ham and were terrible at birmingham when we lost 3-0.

reason why peoplel think it is a revival is because we have had easier home games in recent months(apart from manutd) wigan,derby,fulham. all teams with crap away records.
1st half of the season we had easier away games and toucher home games. last 8 home games we generally easier than the first 8 home games

Adi_Dem Posted on 08/04/2008 12:11
Interesting - our revival

Keep your hair on myboro! As I say all we're doing is interpreting the stats differently. Neither of us are producing a fiction adn can use those games as evidence of anything we want.

I agree with you - it's been a poor season and by implication that means that we haven't played well and the manager hasn't done a good job.

All I am saying is that Southgate, whether we like it or not, will be here next season and there might, just might, be positives to build upon. Before the Arsenal game we were in the bottom 3, we had had a poor start to the season and were in deep trouble. Since then we have moved to 9 points clear of the relegation zone and will finish somewhere in 13th-15th bracket. That isn't good but it's a lot better than where I thought we were heading before the Arsenal game and that, really, is it.

I'm not arguing that we've had a good season or that all is well. I'm just saying we turned soemthing around this season from potential disaster.

Finally, if you read what I posted I actually did not say that this was evidence that this was our best season since the 7th placed finish. In my view we're currently light years behind that team. All I did say was that our form since the Arsenal game (and I accept all of your points that it is an arbritrary starting point) if spread over a season would give us more points than in any season since that 7th placed finish, which is true.

What I am getting at is that there it is potentially going to be an exciting season next season. One in which maybe a bit of the buzz comes back.

Holgateoldskool Posted on 08/04/2008 12:43
Interesting - our revival

To cherry pick a certain time scale of stats could invariably back up a viewpoint. The season is 38 games - and that remains the true yardstick.

The season was bound to be difficult. We have hardly had a recognised striker for the majority. The midfield must be a disappointment for Gareth. So with 2/3 rds of the team areas not being able to function on a consistant basis a challenging season was bound to happen.

The talk of our great defence? Frankly the 2 goals Utd scored was more down to our deficiencies than brilliant creative football.

So the vision going forward? Not so sure it is as bright as some lay the case.

On Southgate? Not sure - but how long are folk going to give him? Yes it was a great result on Sunday. Yes the improvement in play was refreshing.

However do we have pace throughout the team yet ? No. Are we consistantly playing a more offensive game? Not often.

These were primary objectives Gareth set. Who is to blame for the fact they have only been spaspodically achieved - it lies in the hands of one man.

karembeu_ca Posted on 08/04/2008 13:15
Interesting - our revival

give it up Adi, it's a long wind-up that has long-since run its course.

br14 Posted on 08/04/2008 13:17
Interesting - our revival

Worth remembering that we started the season playing attractive attacking football. Problem was our lack of a finisher. My guess is Southgate had naively banked on having the Yak available, but he'd already decided to leave in January 2007 (rejected contract increase maybe?) and was lying through his teeth.

Without someone with the confidence or quality to get a few goals we were always going to struggle playing attacking football.

In concert with the lack of offensive quality was our injury riven defence. Up to 3 centre backs injured at one time, and Woodgate on the field when he clearly wasn't at 100% meant we were exposed. I'm surprised we did as well as we did.

The West Ham game was a case in point. By far the better team for almost the entire game, we let in three goals.

I'm not surprised that one third into the season the style changed to the dogged, no risks style seen until recently. Without it we surely would have been relegated.

The chief recent change has been the increase in pace and energy in midfield. While Rochemback has excellent technique he just doesn't have the hurly burly needed to survive in the Premier League. He'd be ok if we had a player alongside him with the quality of a Hargreaves or whatever - but we don't. Fairly clear he'll be off.

And it finally looks like we're worked out how to use Alves. O'Neils speculative punt upfield for the first goal on Sunday now looks like a work of brilliance.

Personally I think the future looks good if we can hold the core of the current team together and strengthen in midfield.

Some definite "must try harder" for Southgate this season though.

Don't accept players statements they're happy when you've just told them they can't have a contract increase.

Don't rely on players just because you've made them captain.

Don't play risky attacking football unless you've got someone to put the ball in the net.

Don't select a player who is clearly injured, regardless of what he may say (at least not unless you have absolutely no choice).

TheSmogMonster Posted on 08/04/2008 13:55
Interesting - our revival

Its a shame kermit's posts have been missed by the majority of posters on this thread.

Those problems in the second half are the reason why we are having a bad season.

In contrast Sunderland have won so many games in the last 5 minutes.

We need to get that balance right.

If Alves can keep going like he did on Sunday though, we won't have many problems next season, the biggest mistake of this season was not getting him in in September when we had the chance.

Adi_Dem Posted on 08/04/2008 14:01
Interesting - our revival

I think it's a combination of fitness and concentration. It certainly needs addressing. Maybe even substitutions have done for us?

heaton_mersey_boro Posted on 08/04/2008 14:10
Interesting - our revival

br14 - good post. Pretty much agree with all of that.

Boromart Posted on 08/04/2008 14:14
Interesting - our revival


"Heres something to mull over, the league position is all you need to take into account, everything thing else is meaningless."
Yep so your appraisal of doom and gloom for us is far from correct, we have garnered 30% more points than Bolton who are going down. So we are comfortably safe.

"Every time you argue we have an injury, another side will do the same" -- I'm not saying other sides don't get injured. I'm saying at the start of thge year we were seriously weak in CB and CF. It's a fact and obviously affected our form.

"every time you bunch 6 results together to prove one point another statistician will say you should be looking at eight games." -- I didn't do that.

"Just read the table and stop talking bollox" -- I think you need to take your own advice once or twice.

sasboro1 Posted on 08/04/2008 14:15
Interesting - our revival

our 2nd half of a game are a concern and needs to be sorted. i also think we have struggled to hold onto leads

karembeu_ca Posted on 08/04/2008 14:16
Interesting - our revival

FFS its a wind-up, let it die.

it was an entertaining wind-up for a while there, but has long since lost it's charm.

Adi_Dem Posted on 09/05/2008 13:56
Interesting - our revival

So, revival complete or just a lucky escape?

Critical_Bill Posted on 09/05/2008 13:58
Interesting - our revival

I'd say let's be thankful that there are a few who are even poorer than us.

fatharrywhite Posted on 09/05/2008 13:59
Interesting - our revival

is there a search engine on this site that i dont know about or do you bookmark these threads!? i'm afraid to say it's a bit sad if you have!!

mickbrown Posted on 09/05/2008 14:00
Interesting - our revival

"Heres something to mull over, the league position is all you need to take into account, everything thing else is meaningless."
Yep so your appraisal of doom and gloom for us is far from correct, we have garnered 30% more points than Bolton who are going down. So we are comfortably safe"

I'm loving that.

Adi_Dem Posted on 09/05/2008 14:01
Interesting - our revival

Just type in a few keywords in google and you can find the thread. That gives you the date that it was posted and then you can just change the number in the address bar above to get back to it.

Dead easy it is!

fatharrywhite Posted on 09/05/2008 14:03
Interesting - our revival

i tried that on google for one of mine but it didnt work. i did the bbc prediction league about 8 weeks ago and was pretty sure that i got the relagtion places and our points total almost spot on so was going to bask in the glory by hoofing it!

Adi_Dem Posted on 09/05/2008 14:05
Interesting - our revival

The alternative is if you know roughly when you posted it (I generally remember which match I posted after) and then change the number in the address bar to get to the date!

sasboro1 Posted on 09/05/2008 14:18
Interesting - our revival

what revival? I am still waiting for it to start. Saying that we should be man city on sunday.

Holgateoldskool Posted on 09/05/2008 14:46
Interesting - our revival

Revival? What are certain people on? I deal with facts not fantasy. This season (even with a win on Sunday) will be our lowest points haul since 01/02 season - we managed 42 that year.Our goal scoring will be the lowest since 01/02.

For all these fantasists on here how are we in the midst of a revival?

In a league where it is generally accepted that that the lower half is pretty pish poor that to me demonstates how far we are from a revival and progress.

Still I'm here to be shot at...........

Adi_Dem Posted on 09/05/2008 15:20
Interesting - our revival

I think if you read the original post I was trying to say that after an awful start we have improved. It's been a P*** poor season I would agree, all I was getting at was that since the Arsenal winn we've done better than before it. If we hadn't we'd have been relegated weeks ago.

Holgateoldskool Posted on 09/05/2008 15:23
Interesting - our revival

Scoea, with 2 wins in the past 10-11 league games - sorry I can't buy into a revival.

Unless we have some astute purchases - 4 or 5 at least - i can't see much improvement based on recent results/form.

Adi_Dem Posted on 09/05/2008 15:25
Interesting - our revival

Don't forget this was posted a good few games ago!

As I say, perhaps revival was the wrong word. What I was getting at was that we've gone from relegation certainties to relatively comfortable.

Not much to shout about but better than it could have been.