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asredastheycome Posted on 12/09/2011 16:08
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

At least it will be a shock to some of posters on this board.

Spot on article Bernie.


Link: Skavens not Slavering.

gravyboat Posted on 12/09/2011 16:16
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

It's a bit, errrr...disjointed isn't it?

And can he really not remember Uriah Rennie?

Gillandi Posted on 12/09/2011 16:27
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

Yeah, "disjointed" is a polite way of putting it. I'll add the word "bizarre".

gravyboat Posted on 12/09/2011 16:33
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

Bizarre is an appropriate term.

Quite an unfortunate head-line, too.

Midosparmo Posted on 12/09/2011 16:38
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

Perhaps they need to shed a few glasgow managers to make space for some black ones.

Coming over the wall and taking our jobs [V] [:(!]

The_same_as_before Posted on 12/09/2011 16:38
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

and thats him talking sense.

Gillandi Posted on 12/09/2011 16:38
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

It is yeah [unfortunate headline]. Dubious use of the words "black" and "gay" as proper names too.



Marvanelli Posted on 12/09/2011 16:40
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

He is right.

What has it got to do with the skin colour?

If a manager is good enough he will be chosen for a job regardless of the colour of his skin

mattyk50 Posted on 12/09/2011 16:47
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

i was expecting the last sentence to be, "sorry, what was the question again?"

Gillandi Posted on 12/09/2011 16:49
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

Marvanelli - So why are the number of black players disproportionately high yet black managers grossly, disproportionately low? How is it they're not good enough?

Marvanelli Posted on 12/09/2011 17:58
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

You're asking me a question that I can not answer[:o)]

How can anyone think it's got anything to do with the colour of your skin?!

This debate is a farce!

And also, it will take a generation to even it self out. 15/20 years ago you never got half as many black players. But in 15/20 years time I can see there being a lot more black managers.

oooooo Posted on 12/09/2011 18:15
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

"And also, it will take a generation to even it self out. 15/20 years ago you never got half as many black players. But in 15/20 years time I can see there being a lot more black managers."

20 years ago and we had 20% black players. We have 1% black managers. That proves there is discrimination.

Or perhaps you think there is something about black people that makes them less likely to be good managers?

Gillandi Posted on 12/09/2011 18:20
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

"How can anyone think it's got anything to do with the colour of your skin?!"

Because the game has had massive problems with racism over the years and the great strides that have been made to stamp it out have come through debate and action. Two things Bernie and yourself seem against, despite offering no other theories or solutions.


mattyk50 Posted on 12/09/2011 18:24
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

"20 years ago and we had 20% black players"

how many of them were english?

how many wanted to remain in the country, rather than go home to family in their country of origin after their playing days?

its a meaningless statistic


Marvanelli Posted on 12/09/2011 18:24
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

How is it proof of discrimination?

How do you know that all those black players want to become managers?

Free_Subbuteo_171 Posted on 12/09/2011 18:26
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

Funny how Bernie equates secretarianism in 1980's Glasgow with racism.


BillBones Posted on 12/09/2011 18:31
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

'The president is never black, female or gay,' is a Morrissey lyric.

oooooo Posted on 12/09/2011 18:38
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

"How is it proof of discrimination?"

Because every other way you slice and dice demographics up for players it represented in managers. Welsh? Catholic? Young? Old? Fat? Skinny? Ugly? Good looking? Yes. Black? No.

"How do you know that all those black players want to become managers?"

Mate, the figures are out by a substantial margin. 2000% out!

WillMunny Posted on 12/09/2011 18:39
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

Ill informed guesswork from Bernie as usual. He thinks more than 50% of players are black, when it was well publicised that it is 25%. [rle]

Marvanelli is right about it changing over time. It is wrong to compare currently 25% black players with 2% black managers, when a large proportion of managers retired from playing 30/20/10 years ago. What proportion of black players did we have then?

Looking at England internationals from 15-25 years ago, Anderson, Ince, Barnes, Parker, Palmer and Curle have all been given a start in management at some level and have all failed.

Walker, Ferdinand and Daley have all done some coaching, whilst Sol Campbell is still a player. So every retired black member of England's tournament squads between 1986-1996 have been given employment as manager or coach. But none of them has shown the required attributes to rise to the top.

Also, of this 25% figure for black players, how many are foreign nationals that return to their home countries when they retire? For example, are the likes of Job and Ricard likely to apply for managerial roles in England when they retire from playing?

I guess Bernie is ultimately right in saying that some kind of quota is wrong, but he hasn't articulated his reasons very well IMHO.

oooooo Posted on 12/09/2011 18:41
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

Will, 20% in 1990. So that blows your argument well and truly out of the water. Or did they all "go back home'? [sad]

the_dude_strikes_back Posted on 12/09/2011 18:43
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

Of course the country and the board are inherently racist, it just pure denial, i bet every single poster on here has cursed about black people and people from pakistan etc and are talking XXXXXX

this is just another brainless piece of XXXXXX from slaven, and to top it off he XXXXXXs on about he is a roman catholic, summing up his intellect, religion ffs, something only stupid people take seriously

of course the boards moderators are too busy banning people for having there own opinions these days so it doesnt get chance to get out into the open much, maybe you should just XXXXXX on about your car gillandi, instead of making valid points, thats the only thing anyone seems to be interested these days on this board

WillMunny Posted on 12/09/2011 18:43
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

Where is your 20% stat from ooooooo?

B-MAN Posted on 12/09/2011 18:46
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

It's because they can't swim.....never trust a man that can't swin.

Gillandi Posted on 12/09/2011 18:52
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

Wilf - It stands to reason that the cream of black English players will get a chance to manage at some level, disproportionate to their qualification in other aspects of being a good manager mostly, just by virtue of them being such good players. As is the case with white players. The vast majority of all ex-players fail in management. You need to look at the opportunities given to black players who didn't reach those heights as a player. I presume the PFA have done that and found that the opportunities haven't been there.

I agree that some correction will happen in time but I welcome any attempt to promote that process. Denial of the issue will surely only retard the progress.

WillMunny Posted on 12/09/2011 18:59
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

Ok oooooo, whilst I wait for your reply and evidence, I'll say this. I very much doubt that 20% of players in the top flight in 1990 were black. I know you didn't say top flight, but I'm saying it 'cos it is relevant. Why? Because you are much more likely to be offered a managerial role in professional football if you have played at the highest level than if you were a journeyman 4th division player.

Only 10 black players represented England in tournaments between 1986 and 1996. I have no stats for Div 1/Prem over the same period, but I'd be amazed if 20% of players were black. In any event, if only a small proportion of black players played at the highest level, they are of course going to be at a disadvantage when it comes to applying for managers jobs, but not because of skin colour but because most chairmen will (rightly or wrongly) be more drawn to a well known former England international than they will be the retiring left back from Mansfield.

WillMunny Posted on 12/09/2011 19:03
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

I agree with everything you've said there Gillandi and if there is evidence that black players aren't being afforded the same opportunities as white players based on skin colour, of course something needs to be done. But I do think that there will be loads of white players from the lower leagues also struggling to get a chance in management for the same reasons we have both stated - the more well known you are as a player, the more likely you will be offered a chance as a manager.

UAUA Posted on 12/09/2011 19:04
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

"Only 10 black players represented England in tournaments between 1986 and 1996"

Does that include qualifiers? If not then that only includes 110 selections anyway in that time (5 tournaments), many of which will be duplicated - surely that would take it to around 20%?

WillMunny Posted on 12/09/2011 19:13
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

Not including qualifiers UAUA. Only 2 black players went to the 1986 world cup and only 3 went to Italia 90. The Euro 96 squad had 3 black players (14%).

Hey I might be wrong and I'd like to know if that's the case. But if 25% of players are black today (according to the report I read), then I would be suprised if it was 20% 20 years ago, when racism was certainly more of a barrier to playing. That's why I have asked ooooooo for some sauce.

mattyk50 Posted on 12/09/2011 19:14
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

since the rule was introduced in america, the number of black coaches increased from 6% to 22%, thats no coincidence

Jonny_Ingbar Posted on 12/09/2011 19:26
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

I think he might have got his facts a bit confused (sound familiar?), because its illegal to positivly discriminate based on ethnicity.

Other than that point, I actually found his article pretty tedious.

oooooo Posted on 12/09/2011 19:36
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

Will, it's from a book called Why England Lose and if I'm honest it doesn't say 1990, so I'll apologise as that was not 100% correct. It's the middle of the decade for the 20% figure, the 1990 date is one given as where discrimination against black football was effectively over as the number of black players surpassed the demographic percentage in 'normal life'.

But even then, those players have now retired, and they aren't managing. Why is this?

number9 Posted on 12/09/2011 20:03
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

"I know how black players feel, they feel discriminated, neglected, I had similar experiences growing up in Glasgow,I was turned down from job interviews as one of the first questions they asked would be what school did you go to, as soon as you say St Domonics or St Margaret Marys they instantly knew what religion you were, of course its wasn’t my colour that went against me it was my creed."

nothing to do with you being a complete bell end then?

speckyget Posted on 12/09/2011 20:10
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

That article reads like he dictated it to himself whilst falling asleep.

halcyon Posted on 12/09/2011 20:16
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

Usual load of claptrap. Awful article. Horrendous spelling and punctuation errors.

Slaven is horrified that there are plans afoot to get more black managers into the game saying it's ability that should be the yardstick by which they are judged, then complains that Roman Catholics are, and have been, discriminated against.

Where is the consistency in his argument?

He was an excellent striker for the Boro.

He is a buffoon as a 'writer'. [V]

Powlay Posted on 12/09/2011 20:18
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

I read up until the part about not having a black referee then closed the window, as per usual Bernie doesnt have much of a clue but loves to rant and rage.

Mojo Posted on 12/09/2011 20:25
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

"But even then, those players have now retired, and they aren't managing. Why is this?"

Possibly for similar reasons like that of Alan Hanson, they're just not interested?

Space_Face Posted on 12/09/2011 20:31
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

Black players are not interested in being managers? Yeah, that'll be it.

Mojo Posted on 12/09/2011 20:37
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

I was trying to make the point that white or black, some people just aren't interested in managing.

You seem fixated on the skin colour.

Space_Face Posted on 12/09/2011 20:41
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

I'm sure some aren't interested, but a significant amount will be and are not able to. Why is that?

the_dude_strikes_back Posted on 12/09/2011 20:45
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

[:D]alan hansen

what a bizzare, utterly random and totally pointless name plucked from thin air purely because he happens to be white and is not employed as a football mamager

who next, gary linekar

ffs

bill_door Posted on 12/09/2011 20:51
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

I think 20% in 1990 is a tad high too, but if we pretend it's correct - are we saying that clubs were happy to have black players playing for them, but not happy to let them manage, because they're black?

Strange kind of racism, that.

Gillandi Posted on 12/09/2011 20:57
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

Not really Bill. It tally's with ancient racial stereotypes about black men being good athletes but little else. Language like that was fairly common currency in football in the 50's, 60's and 70's.

the_dude_strikes_back Posted on 12/09/2011 21:00
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

you should all accept that if middlesbrough employed a black manager there would be hell on


sad, but true and you all XXXXXXing know it

he would get less time and less tolerance than a white one

it hasnt helped that most of us are brought up watching our country blowing up brown people pretty much non stop for the 20 years either, it must be very confusing for kids watching that


mattyk50 Posted on 12/09/2011 21:02
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

"you should all accept that if middlesbrough employed a black manager there would be hell on"


you mean like those riots on the streets when viv anderson was our assistant manager?

bill_door Posted on 12/09/2011 21:06
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

"you should all accept that if middlesbrough employed a black manager there would be hell on

sad, but true and you all XXXXXXing know it
"

No, that's bóllocks dude.

If he was crap he'd get as much stick as anyone else, our last few managers have come in for a ton of criticism and it's got nothing to do with skin colour.

If we had Ince or Hughton in now, doing the job Mowbray's done since he took over, they'd be praised to the heavens.

If you really think Boro fans would have been in uproar last October if we'd employed Ince, because he's black, you're deluded.

Captain_Feathersword Posted on 12/09/2011 21:07
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

OK which Black players who have retired would make good managers and why? What would be the benefits just because they are black? Two cases here and it is extreme just to enhance sensible debate :
Mark Bright - Fairly decent Top Flight CF, no International experience, comes across as intelligent and articulate.
OR
Ian Wright - Brilliant Top Flight CF, substantial if not remarkable International experience, comes across as passionate and confrontational.
Who would make the better manager? who would you take on?
On the face of it neither have expressed an interest in being a manager, if they were guarenteed interviews would they change their minds?

the_dude_strikes_back Posted on 12/09/2011 21:09
Bernie Slaven talks XXXXXX as usual

crap

boro fans were singing songs about 'nig nogs' against burnley on saturday

i was there and heard it clear as day

oooooo Posted on 12/09/2011 21:09
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

It's a great point, bill_door but that's pretty much what the situation was/is.

Black players getting into professional teams didn't signal the end of racism overnight. In fact, they didn't get in just because the game woke up and decided to do the right thing, it was because they happened to be cheaper than white players.

"The problem with black players is they've great pace, great athletes, love to play with the ball in front of them...When it's behind them it's chaos. I don't think too many of them can read the game. When you're getting into the mid-winter you need a few of the hard white men to carry the athletic black players through"

"The black players at this club lend the side a lot of skill and flair, but you also need white players in there to balance things up and give the team some brains and some common sense."

Both quotes from Crystal Palace chairman Ron Noades in 1991

"They haven't got the bottle" - Emlyn Hughes on the 80s Liverpool team.

They thought they couldn't be trusted in serious roles because of their ethnicity. Reluctance to employ them as managers is just another form of that.

This attitude did not go away overnight because we had black players actually playing in games.

bill_door Posted on 12/09/2011 21:13
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

Good post oooooo. But what about now, do you think that's still the view of chairmen and owners today?

Dude - songs about nig nogs eh? Yeah, being sung by thousands of Boro fans, or just a few díckheads. You know fine well that the overwhelming majority of Boro fans would be fine with a black manager. He'd get as much stick / praise as anyone else.

mattyk50 Posted on 12/09/2011 21:16
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

in fairness though oooooo, im sure its possible to find racist quotes from an individual for just about any situation/ industry / argument


some things said by one clearly racist individual 20 years ago isnt really a fair reflection

the_dude_strikes_back Posted on 12/09/2011 21:17
Bernie Slaven talking out of his arse again

probably true bill, but there is still a vocal minority


how many black managers have there been in england in the last 50 years as apposed to white 'skinned' managers, and by that i mean foreign non afro carribean ones

i bet it isnt even half a percent

bill_door Posted on 12/09/2011 21:21
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

True enough, the numbers don't lie. I'd be interested if a proper survey of retired black players from the last 20/30 years was done, with their reasons for not going into management. Interesting to see if they think their skin colour is an obstacle or not.

the_dude_strikes_back Posted on 12/09/2011 21:30
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

i think its more of a culture thing and a fear from club owners that a black manager would get enough respect off other players and fans

i mean, dumb black managers can be good footballers, but they cant be good managers

its almost the slave(footballer) and ranch owner(manager) concept

then again, we teach kids that we are superior to all other animals with our human ego and vanity so its only natural they all put things in a pecking order, as we teach them to do so

i mean, why does everyone thing human life is more important than the life of a dog or a goldfish, i'll tell you why, christianity and bullXXXXXX religion, the same concept that cleary preaches racsim



Pogatetz_Ate_My_Hamster_ Posted on 12/09/2011 21:33
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

These plans are beyond the realms of ridiculous

If you are exceptional at what you do you will get to the top regardless of skin colour, religion, sexuality

Pogatetz_Ate_My_Hamster_ Posted on 12/09/2011 21:36
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

"you should all accept that if middlesbrough employed a black manager there would be hell on"

Yeah If Frank Rijkaard had came in when McClaren left they'd have been hell on

[:o)]

Scrote Posted on 12/09/2011 21:56
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

i'd be much more interested to see accurate percentages of british born black and white players who have applied to be managers but been refused interviews (as mentioned above re ricard; foreign nationals need to be looked at separately - are they applying for jobs in the uk? are they managing abroad etc.)

i'd also be wanting to know how many are coaching and have the relevant badges etc. compared with the overall population of football coaching staff at varying levels

one other thing that probably makes a difference is average salary from the mid-nineties onwards

in the top flight at least most good players will have earned enough as players to not 'need' to manage - so it then comes down to a desire to stay in the game

what other opportunities are given to top flight ex-players? what are these missing black players currently doing instead of managing?

i've no problem with interview quotas as long as minimum standards are met

Mojo Posted on 12/09/2011 21:59
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

"what a bizzare, utterly random and totally pointless name plucked from thin air purely because he happens to be white and is not employed as a football mamager"

How silly of me to pick a successful player who never had any interest in becoming a manager.

Seriously, get over yourself. You're so fixated on skin colour, them & us.

Pogatetz_Ate_My_Hamster_ Posted on 12/09/2011 22:01
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

"i've no problem with interview quotas as long as minimum standards are met"

Exactly, what would the minimum standards be?

If Ferguson quit tomorrow and Man Utd had Mourinho, Moyes and Hiddink lined up for an interview would they be forced to interview Lenny Henry aswell if he was the only black applicant?

Scrote Posted on 12/09/2011 22:01
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

another point re slaven - does he EVER do any research?

as pointed out he managed to forget uriah rennie but he also got gil heron's age and date of death wrong (unless this articles been sat around for a couple of years...)

as a player - boro legend
as a pundit - beyond woeful

Scrote Posted on 12/09/2011 22:08
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

PAMH - i'd assume the relevant coaching badges* etc.

a period of coaching (if not coming direct from playing (although i presume players can get coaching experience towards the end of their careers?))


*or a note from steve gibson [;)]

oooooo Posted on 12/09/2011 22:09
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

mattyk50,

True, but 20 years before that, it wouldn't have been condemned like it was that time in 1991. For 1 person to say it, there'll always be more who think it. Most of this problems now are with people who don't consider themselves racist but will still subconsciously be a bit reluctant.

There's been real research which showed that cvs with 'black' names got asked for interview less than the same cv with a 'white' name. Now I know that's not the way recruitment works in football but it shows that people still don't perceive black people the same in society in general. Football is hardly a 'do-gooder' microcosm within society so I expect it to reflect society at least.

Scrote, it'd be interesting to see that data but I can't see an accurate way to get clubs to report the ethnicity of applicants. Plus, it's so much down to appointing a personality or a name that demonstrating why you chose one candidate over another is so arbitrary. To be the manager of Newcastle, you've just got to hang out at the right casinos.

As far as coaching badges are concerned, it's been clear from the past few years that exceptions will be made so I don't think of those badges as being anything more than a an indication of which managers thought they had a chance of getting into the game.

Pogatetz_Ate_My_Hamster_ Posted on 12/09/2011 22:15
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

[:D]

Gillandi Posted on 12/09/2011 22:22
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

Pog - So how do you account for there currently being only 2 black managers out of 92 league clubs?

Mojo Posted on 12/09/2011 22:23
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

Lenny Henry [:D]

Pogatetz_Ate_My_Hamster_ Posted on 12/09/2011 22:25
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

The 90 other chairman are obviously racist [rle]

Marvanelli Posted on 12/09/2011 22:27
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

Gillandi

It's people like you who are making this a racial debate!

What's next? saying that Mowbray is racist against Chinese players because he hasn't signed one for 'Boro?

Gillandi Posted on 12/09/2011 22:28
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

Pog - Very funny. Seriously though, whats your opinion on this? If it's not racism, what is it?

Pogatetz_Ate_My_Hamster_ Posted on 12/09/2011 22:37
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

It's not been long since the majority of people in the game accepted black players, it took till the late 70's to get a black player playing for England.

Why aren't black players getting involved in management? The likes of Carlton Palmer, Des Walker, Les Ferdinand, Ugo Ehigou, Dion Dublin, John Solako, etc, etc?

It can't be because the majority of chairman are too racist to give them an interview. We live in a white majority country, there's more white players than black players in our game, so therefore they'll be less black managers as the vast majority of managers are ex-players.

I have no doubt in 10 years there will be more than double the number of black managers, but forcing people to interview them just undermines their credibility.

Gillandi Posted on 12/09/2011 22:40
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

Marvanelli - The race of managers is the debate we're having here i'm afraid. The fact is that black managers are disproportinately few. The desire is to establish the reason why. The belief is that they are not being given the same opportunities to manage as white players. You've already admitted you can't contribute to the debate. Sorry but you can't close it down for others either.

arnold_judas_rimmer Posted on 12/09/2011 22:42
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

"In America up until Barack Obama was made president there had never been a black, female or gay in that role"

And until that day you have nothung to say to me - to make me believe.

Super Moz.

Gillandi Posted on 12/09/2011 22:53
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

"It's not been long since the majority of people in the game accepted black players, it took till the late 70's to get a black player playing for England."

So you think it's impossible that racism is a factor now but you say "it's not long since people in the game accepted black players?" Seems contradictory. If the latter is the case then the former has to be a strong possibility doesn't it? And, out of interest, which black players would you have selected for England before the late 70's then?



"We live in a white majority country, there's more white players than black players in our game, so therefore they'll be less black managers as the vast majority of managers are ex-players."

Those factors have been accounted for Pog and black managers are still grossly under-represented. Do you want to have another stab at it?


Hercules Posted on 12/09/2011 23:02
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

That article is a shambles.

Black people have physical advantages over white people which allow them to perform better as players.

But these physical advantages can't help them be a better manager. For instance, running fast won't help them be a better coach.

So of course there will be a greater proportion of black players than managers. But I don't think this alone can account for the difference. I reject the notion that racism plays anything more than a peripheral role in creating this disparity though.

stevestrange Posted on 12/09/2011 23:02
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

some great reasons found on this thread to stop reading this board

some of the most ill considered, juvenile "arguments" i've ever had the misfortune to read

some people are determined to find racism where there is none or offer it as a solution to a problem

shows a complete lack of reasoning "racism, yes, that must be the reason", no it's not

it's a money driven game and if paul ince could manage like mourinho, ferguson, etc and deliver the champions leaguethen he would be at chelsea or wherever. he can't therefore he is not.

Pogatetz_Ate_My_Hamster_ Posted on 12/09/2011 23:13
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

Not contradicting at all, it's a fact it's took a long time to get decades of black English players into our game, and when more and more black players retire we should have more black managers. Give it another decade and they'll defiantly be a noticeable increase.

What's your theory? 90 racist chairman?

Marvanelli Posted on 12/09/2011 23:16
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

I said that too[^]

It will even it self out in 15/20 years time when black players have retired.

To say it's down to racism is pathetic!

It's just another excuse to bring out another racism scandal!


Hercules Posted on 12/09/2011 23:32
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

While black players have been retiring for 20 years, that means there are only relatively young black former players.

The age range of managers in the PL is about 33 to 70 with former black players populating only around half of that age range.

oooooo Posted on 12/09/2011 23:40
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

This 'wait for players to retire' argument is a dead duck. We already have retired black players, you make out that they haven't been any black players retiring for the last 25 years.

Gillandi Posted on 13/09/2011 00:12
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

To my knowledge, all 92 chairmen of league clubs are white, I think that is the biggest, most obvious factor. I'm sure if 30% of club owners were black we would see a huge increase in the number of black managers. I doubt there's many of those chairmen who'd qualify for the racist tag or still subscribe to the old myths about black footballers, probably none, but i'm sure it's the case that a fair number of them find it more difficult, almost sub-consciously, to relate to black players. A lot of careers in management are borne out of the relationships forged by players with staff and directors over years. I can see how bonds of trust and respect between black players and white chairmen are more difficult to establish. Black players, unlike their white colleagues will have faced racist attitudes throughout their lives, in and outside of the game and may well be no more inclined to build those relationships than their prospective bosses. It's been said by a number of black managers and coaches within the game like Ince, Viv Anderson, Carlton Palmer and Keith Alexander that a black candidate for a managerial or coaching role at a club has to be far better than his rivals to get the job.

I'm not screaming about racism here. It's perfectly natural in GB that our clubs have white chairmen. My point is how the smallest of cultural difference can alter markedly the landscape of our game.

Boromart Posted on 13/09/2011 00:19
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

why does Bernie always have to play the 'Irish victim' card. That is the only reason he has done this article.

It's idiotic as well "As a roman catholic, I find it offensive that a catholic will never sit on the throne"
How the XXXXXX can a roman catholic sit as head of the church of England? [:o)]

"I find it offensive that there has never been a catholic prime minister." - Does he find it offensive that their has never been a Seikh or Muslim Prime Minister? I doubt it. He has to make it about HIM!

mattyk50 Posted on 13/09/2011 00:25
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

"To my knowledge, all 92 chairmen of league clubs are white"

i think you need to rethink that one! can think of a few non white in the premier league alone off the top of my head...

blackburn
man city
fulham
QPR

[:o)]

viv_andersons_nana Posted on 13/09/2011 00:31
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

"To my knowledge, all 92 chairmen of league clubs are white"

*supremacists

mattyk50 Posted on 13/09/2011 00:31
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

* stripes fans

viv_andersons_nana Posted on 13/09/2011 00:32
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

*van men

Gillandi Posted on 13/09/2011 00:38
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

Matty - I've re-thought it and I should have said non-black rather than white. There are a few bronze owners, I agree who I wouldn't give houseroom too personally, neither white nor black low-life scum in my opinion who need to bugger off home to Malaysia, Abu Dhabi, Egypt, India etc. [:D]


red_rebel Posted on 13/09/2011 00:39
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

Lets say that pupils from a particular school, St Analogy's, are statistically proven not to be getting into Toffs Collage Oxbridge.

There are several reasons why that could be the case. It could be that many are just not suited, they are not academically inclined, don't have the skills set, are thick.

It could be that there are cultural factors, that they are not encouraged to aspire, that they are led to believe they are not going to fit in, it would be too taxing for them, their peers would ridicule them for getting above themselves.

It could also be there is some intangible historic cultural resistance at Toffs itself, that the lecturers and admissions staff don't believe in general that St Analogy's pupils are capable of the course work, that past experience shows they have not been good enough or have character defects or even that it is not really the sort of place for them and they would be better off doing an apprenticeship.

It happens. The stats show it happens. Even the very best pupils with the very best attitudes, apptitudes and qualifications and a real desire to succeed are not getting in while mediocre pupils of famous St Cakes are getting in not just as students but given jobs as junior lecturers even when they have below average results and are stupid.

So what do you do? Do you shrug and say if they were good enough they would rise to the top? Even when the stats show that is not true? Do you say that eventually these things will even themselves out? That the colleges wouldn't deliberately deprive themselves of good students. Do you sneer at people who point to the problem, say they have a chip on their shoulder?

If that is the case the college is potentially depriving itself of bright and driven students, thinkers who could make a genuine contribution. They may miss out on an Einstein or Berners Lee just because they went to the wrong school. That's crazy.

As it is pupils of St Analogy's are now not even applying for St Toffs because they don't think they will get in and don't want the humiliation of the rejection letter so they get a job in the refrectory instead. And you could take that as evidence that they don't even want a chance.

BUT... what if there was a mechanism that encouraged applicants from the disadvantaged school? A system that gave them a chance of not a place but an interview with the dean, a chance to actually prepare and present their case, a chance to show that they do have the aptitude and ability to do it?

Not a guarenteed place. Not an advantage over the St Cakeians. No compulsion on St Toffs to take them. Just a chance to compete on an equal footing at the interview stage.

If they really didn't want to be students they wouldn't apply. If they really weren't good enough they wouldn't get in. If St Toffs really were committed to taking the brightest they would have a new pool of previously untapped talent to explore.

Why would you object to that unless you really did think it wasn't really their place? Or you went to St Cakes?


mattyk50 Posted on 13/09/2011 00:40
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

i'll read that in the morning i think

Marvanelli Posted on 13/09/2011 00:42
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

Ive just watched 3 sets of amazing tennis in quicker time than I could read that

gravyboat Posted on 13/09/2011 09:04
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

red [^]

asredastheycome Posted on 13/09/2011 09:28
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

It would not bother me one iota what colour a manager was as long as the team did the business on the pitch

Maybe one of the reasons for coloured managers failing is the clubs where they have managed. I expected Carlton Palmer to make a good manager but he was up against it from the off with Stockport and the Mansfield(what ever happened that Keith Curle was sacked??). Incey did well in his first spell at MK Dons but probably went to Blackburn too early in his career. I'm sure he will bounce back.

HelmutSchmutz Posted on 13/09/2011 10:13
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

Does anyone seriously believe in this day and age chairman don't appoint managers because of the colour of their skin? What a load of cack. It's not 1950's Mississippi.

speckyget Posted on 13/09/2011 10:15
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

So how would you explain the apparent statistical anomaly?

fatharrywhite Posted on 13/09/2011 10:25
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

"you should all accept that if middlesbrough employed a black manager there would be hell on"

this has to rank as the most idiotic thing ever said on this board (and there is plenty of competition as well)

Total and utter bollox, in fact words cant really describe what utter XXXXXXe it is.

Gillandi Posted on 13/09/2011 13:19
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

Ex Oldham, Everton and Aston Villa centre back Earl Barrett in the Daily Mirror today talking about the difficulties he's had trying to find employment within the game. Capped 3 times for England, 200 premiership starts, has all the FA badges and a degree in sports science, currently coaching the under 14's at Stoke City but spent 5 years out of the game and applied for 40 jobs without getting an interview.

mattyk50 Posted on 13/09/2011 13:20
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

so is he calling the 40 chairmen where hes applied for jobs all racist?

Vasily_Rats Posted on 13/09/2011 13:31
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

Did Rowley Birkin QC hack Bernies website?

speckyget Posted on 13/09/2011 13:32
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

[:D]

mattyk50 Posted on 13/09/2011 13:34
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

rowley birkin [cr]

Hercules Posted on 13/09/2011 14:02
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

This 'wait for players to retire' argument is a dead duck. We already have retired black players, you make out that they haven't been any black players retiring for the last 25 years.

So they've been retiring for 25 years. OK. That means that the oldest retired black footballer potentially looking for gainful employment as a manager is going to be 60?

That gives black managers an age range of 35-60, while there is a pool of white managers with an age range of 35-70+. This accounts for a small part of the disparity.

Again, there are many factors contributing to the disparity. IMO racism only plays a peripheral role, if any at all.

speckyget Posted on 13/09/2011 14:12
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

But we're still left with a significant discrepancy with the numbers. Several posters seem convinced about what doesn't cause this - i.e., racism. But if it's not that, what is it?

Hercules Posted on 13/09/2011 14:27
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

There are many reasons, lots of them catalogued above.

M favourite one is:

Running fast isn't very useful to a manager.

Adi_Dem Posted on 13/09/2011 14:28
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

If that's the Wolfman talking sense I'd hate to read his stuff when he's spouting nonsense!!

It is an absolute fact that there are very few black managers. Of course, in an ideal world where prejudice doesn't exist, the best man would get the job but I am really struggling to conclude that that is what happens currently.

gravyboat Posted on 13/09/2011 14:28
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

You see, racism is dead.

oooooo Posted on 13/09/2011 14:30
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

Exactly, specky. Everyone is convinced that racism couldn't POSSIBLY be involved but everyone has a whole slew of pretty shonky theories that they are happy to stake the mortgage on.

Bigborofan1987 Posted on 13/09/2011 14:32
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

lost my respect for bernie after the 'juninho will disrupt our pre season' winge that he had, which proved to be shyte

oooooo Posted on 13/09/2011 14:35
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

Hercules:

"Running fast isn't very useful to a manager."

Nor is it a hindrance to being a manager.

The sub-text of what you are saying is that black players are athletic but when it comes to thinking, they aren't really up to it. It's certainly not an original thought but let's not pretend it's anything other than a disgraceful comment, eh?

oooooo Posted on 13/09/2011 14:38
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

Here's another one for you, how about we put this idea that "the best man get's the job" to sleep for once and for all.

How many times do the same dreadful managers get chance after chance? FFS, one of the couple of black managers got replaced by a white cockney mate of the chairman at Newcastle.

Hercules Posted on 13/09/2011 14:41
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

The sub-text of what you are saying is that black players are athletic but when it comes to thinking, they aren't really up to it. It's certainly not an original thought but let's not pretend it's anything other than a disgraceful comment, eh?

Wrong! What I just posted is a very simplistic version of what I posted last night at 23:02. Have a look.

[;)]

oooooo Posted on 13/09/2011 14:50
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

Yeah I have looked, it hasn't exactly redeemed you. The thrust of it is:

'Black players are more athletic than white ones, that is why they are over-represented in squads'

Well firstly, I don't agree that the white players are that far behind in athleticism if at all.

Secondly, even if that was the reason more black players were represented in squads, would that make them less likely to be a manager. Of course not, as you say, athleticism doesn't make you a good manager. But it doesn't make them a bad manager either?

Hercules Posted on 13/09/2011 14:56
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

It's a scientific fact that black people are better than white people at explosive activities, which is basically what football has become, due to their higher number of fast twitch fibres.

Or is there anti-white racism in sprinting?

This helps them run faster, jump higher and perform better as players. But doesn't help them spot a player or apply tactics.

That's one of the reasons why there is a 25% representation of black players and only a 2% representation of black managers.

Pretty simple really. I think you're being deliberately stupid so you can point at me and say "look, look, a racist" when you couldn't be further from the truth.

red_shamrock Posted on 13/09/2011 14:59
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

Have any Black former players been knocked back for a interview or job?

speckyget Posted on 13/09/2011 15:06
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

Hercules did you agree with Ron Noades when he shared his thoughts on this topic?

mattyk50 Posted on 13/09/2011 15:06
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

it makes sense in that the attributes that "some" black players have to make it as professional footballers have no bearing on being a good manager or not

what % of league managers are black??

i cant see it being too different to the % of black people in the UK population as a whole (3.2% as of 2001 census)

Hercules Posted on 13/09/2011 15:07
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

I'm unfamiliar with Ron Noades.

Matty, apparently it's 2 in 92 so a little over 2%

mattyk50 Posted on 13/09/2011 15:09
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

not too far off a fair representation of the UK population then [^]

mattyk50 Posted on 13/09/2011 15:11
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

"Well firstly, I don't agree that the white players are that far behind in athleticism if at all."


how do you explain that 25% of league players are black then, compared to 3% of the population as a whole?

red_shamrock Posted on 13/09/2011 15:11
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

Maybe if there are former Black players who have had 10 interviews and never got short listed,then maybe there might be substance.
Is there any ?

speckyget Posted on 13/09/2011 15:11
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

@ mattyk50

But you'd expect the representation at management level to reflect the profile of the industry you're looking at. The general population profile is a red herring.

Hercules Posted on 13/09/2011 15:13
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

But you'd expect the representation at management level to reflect the profile of the industry you're looking at.

Football is different for the reason I stated.

Unless you dispute the fact that black people are genetically better suited to being footballers.

mattyk50 Posted on 13/09/2011 15:13
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

"But you'd expect the representation at management level to reflect the profile of the industry you're looking at"

not particularly... being a good footballer doesnt have a decisive bearing on being a good football manager.

yes, there are exceptions, but the top managers of the last 10 years (ferguson, mourinho, wenger) prove this

it requires a whole different set of attributes, and while im not saying black people dont have these attributes, they arent the same ones that explain the 3% to 25% jump in representation

speckyget Posted on 13/09/2011 15:15
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

I didn't say the profiles had to map identically, but the difference between 25% and 2% needs a bit more explaining.

Gillandi Posted on 13/09/2011 15:17
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

If Hercules is on the money here I wonder if black players could have their genes modified in some way after hanging up their boots so that they are not lost to the beautiful game?

Hercules Posted on 13/09/2011 15:18
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

I'm sure there are other factors but I think you're undervaluing the influence black peoples physical superiority can have on the racial make up of football squads.

oooooo Posted on 13/09/2011 15:28
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

Hercules, people who have certain physical advantages don't necessarily have a lack of tactical or organisational nous. Strong people aren't necessarily stupid, are they ffs?

So even if more black people are represented in football because of their physical prowess, there's no evidence AT ALL to suggest that those physically gifted players would be less likely than the population in general in motivational and organisational skills. The 2%-20% discrepancy between managers and players is the elephant that is still in the room.

Next you'll be saying that black players are more laid back [:D]

mattyk50 Posted on 13/09/2011 15:31
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

"...than the population in general..."

which is 3% black!

speckyget Posted on 13/09/2011 15:33
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

The population of footballers isn't 3% black.

oooooo Posted on 13/09/2011 15:34
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

Yes matt, that's only relevant if you believe that aptitude in physical fitness detracts from mental ability.

mattyk50 Posted on 13/09/2011 15:42
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

no its not, the two are totally exclusive


i cant think of a better way to explain what i mean so im off to the gym instead (perhaps my physical fitness is actually giving me a mental block [:D])




mattyk50 Posted on 13/09/2011 15:45
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

the reason 3% of the UK population (black) represent 25% of the footballers is that they have physical / athletic advantages

the reason 3% of the UK population (black) represent 3% of football managers is because they have THE SAME mental ability as everyone else

oooooo Posted on 13/09/2011 15:51
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

Yet almost every manager is drawn from a pool of ex-footballers but not when they are black.

I think that mental ability is entirely independent of physical properties so I see no reason why someone being athletic will make them less able mentally. If a player can run fast, or is strong, it doesn't make him any more or less likely to be intelligent enough to manager a team.

Let's put it this way, if (made up number) 50% of people had the right skills to be a manager, then half the black footballers would be good enough to be a manager. Even you agree that mental and physical attributes don't detract negatively from each other: "no its not, the two are totally exclusive". At least, I think that's what you mean.

MightyDuck Posted on 13/09/2011 16:38
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

i never knew slaven was catholic. has he mentioned that before?

speckyget Posted on 13/09/2011 16:42
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

Apparently he once actually played the game as well.

Adi_Dem Posted on 13/09/2011 16:54
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

Blimey.

We'll be talking about how well black people can dance, hispanics and Latinos being lazy, Germans being efficient and the Irish being a bit dim soon.

gravyboat Posted on 13/09/2011 16:57
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

tbf, the Germans are pretty efficient.

Hercules Posted on 13/09/2011 16:57
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

Hercules, people who have certain physical advantages don't necessarily have a lack of tactical or organisational nous. Strong people aren't necessarily stupid, are they ffs?

Of course not. The fact that you assume that's what I mean from what I actually mean and have, in fact, typed on this thread only shows your own prejudices.

Maybe you aren't being deliberately stupid.

Adi, do you disagree with my assertion that black people are predisposed to being better athletes in sports which require explosive activity, such as football.

Gillandi Posted on 13/09/2011 17:08
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

Hispanics and Latino's lazy Adi? I think you are confusing your moustaches, it's the Scousers that are famed for - nay, genetically predisposed to - prolonged periods of indolence. The problem with your Hispanics and Latino's in management is they won't put the bloody pan flute down long enough to get out on the training ground.

Terry Collier is 72.

Adi_Dem Posted on 13/09/2011 17:09
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

Hercules, I was just kidding and it wasn't aimed at you.

If you're asking me whether I believe that all black people have those characteristics then it's a resounding no. Equally, if you're saying that black people are good at explosive sports because they are black then I'd probably say no to that as well.

oooooo Posted on 13/09/2011 17:22
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

Hercules, if you are going to call be stupid for what is a pretty clearly and patiently explained point then that's your problem.


jeeves Posted on 13/09/2011 17:22
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

I've been reading this with interest. A mate of mine actually did his Masters thesis on this very subject. He managed to interview a number of people from within the game, some black and some white. I've been trying to remember some of the conclusions that he was able to draw but I can't remember most of it unfortunately.

I'm fairly sure that he felt (as did others he interviewed) that race may have been a small factor but by no means the biggest reason for this. One of the things he did find out was that for some reason black footballers and ex pro's had not cultivated the same level and number of contacts as white footballers and ex pro's. I can't remember whether he went into why this might be the case however. In the lower leagues in particular, those contacts are what often gets someone a foot in the door - you get the interview cos you know someone or know someone that knows someone kind of thing. Plus you get a useful recommendation in the ear of the person making the appointment. This is one of the main reasons why certain managers have been able to bounce around various clubs without ever really being that successful - not what you know but who you know.

Bandy Posted on 13/09/2011 17:26
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

I think it's all tosh and the figures are just an unfortunate coincidence. I think Vieira will make a cracking manager oneday

stevestrange Posted on 13/09/2011 20:10
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

gravyboat Posted on 13/09/2011 16:57
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror
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tbf, the Germans are pretty efficient.

not half as efficient as my grandad and his mates[^]

mattyk50 Posted on 13/09/2011 22:16
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

interesting jeeves [^]

robbso Posted on 13/09/2011 22:52
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

Ruud Gullit didn"t help the image of black managers being intelligent. Dropping Mary Poppins at home against the Mackems for example[:P]

Flak jacket firmly in place[;)]

boro74 Posted on 13/09/2011 23:06
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

"not only was he black he was also Irish."

[:D]


Scrote Posted on 14/09/2011 02:04
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

"the reason 3% of the UK population (black) represent 25% of the footballers is that they have physical / athletic advantages

the reason 3% of the UK population (black) represent 3% of football managers is because they have THE SAME mental ability as everyone else"

this is the main reason i take this with a mild pinch of salt - i get the uneasy feeling that a battle-lines are being drawn where there is no battlefield

massive strides have been made towards racial equality since the 70s and a lot of that has been because of, not in spite of, football

however, i am drawn back to red_rebel's st analogys every time i think about it - opportunity must be afforded to everyone equally and if that has to start at the 'political' bottom then we should actually be far more vocal in our support for it

the other question that has to be asked is why the same black kids that eventually aren't managers are drawn disproportionately to playing football instead of elsewhere (foreign players notwithstanding)

mattyk50 Posted on 14/09/2011 12:22
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

quite an interesting article...


Link: here

gravyboat Posted on 14/09/2011 12:29
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

Well debated, Matty lad [^]

RenzoRosso Posted on 14/09/2011 12:29
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

Just read that, he's a strange one Bernard. What's he trying to point out with the refrences to McGrath and the guy he played with at Albion? He implys there was racism and that there still is and then decrys an initiative to get rid of it?

Bernie, you failed.

wishfulthinking Posted on 14/09/2011 13:32
Bernie Slaven talks sense shock horror

If I were to play the devils advocate here I might say that in actual fact, to rebalance the obvious bias shown in the statistics, rules should be introduced to ensure 97% of professional footballers in the UK are white to maintain a balance with the general population.

If we just take the raw statistics it seems that the number of white footballers is way too low. This (if we maintain the reasoning behind the Rooney Rule) MUST be because of inherent racism.