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Adi_Dem Posted on 27/08/2011 23:12
Relegation - the start of something special?

I just wonder whether, once it is put into historical context, we will one day look back on our relegation and subsequent struggle as a major turning point for us.

This isn't based on my getting carried away by our start but just something I was thinking about at the match today.

We all know the old model wasn't sustainable on many levels. The club was suffering by staying in the Premier League and the costs associated with that and financially it was a struggle. The fans were becoming more and more alienated from the club. I think we had lost direction.

Now, not by design, but as a result of a culmination of a number of errors and a number of difficulties we ended up being relegated and let's face it we went through some quite worrying and difficult times.

What that has ultimately allowed us to do is clear the financial decks by completely stripping the club of any excess fat. It's allowed the club and fans to reconnect and given us all direction and hope. It's meant that we've got Mowbray as manager, a Teessider made of the right stuff and the epitome of integrity, honesty and honour. It's allowing us to play football, properly. It's allowing us to get back to basics and develop our young players and further develop our community ties. In many ways it's given us back our club.

It might not be this season but I fully expect Mowbray to get us promoted. When we do we will have a top flight club but it won't be the same one that got relegated, it will be a better one based on better values with a reconnected fan base and a more sustainable financial approach underpinned by a chairman and manager from the area.

So maybe, just maybe, relegation will be looked back upon as the first step on a journey with, not fondness, but appreciation maybe.

pompeylad Posted on 27/08/2011 23:13
Relegation - the start of something special?

Adi..excellent post mate.... [^] Ur an intelligent fella ....

MFC_Riverside Posted on 27/08/2011 23:14
Relegation - the start of something special?

Good post. I'm hoping that in 10 years relegation was the start of something very special.

[^][LOVE]

mossboss Posted on 27/08/2011 23:20
Relegation - the start of something special?

In this era of modern football I dont believe "our" club has lost its direction, Mr Gibson is Chairman and will continue be no matter where he resides.This looks like being a good year for Boro, enjoy the ride, it will / and never will be boring!!!

McLovin Posted on 27/08/2011 23:20
Relegation - the start of something special?

[^][^][^][^][^][^] spot on!!!

degsyspesh Posted on 27/08/2011 23:21
Relegation - the start of something special?

While I agree to a point, we didn't need to be relegated to make the changes that have been forced upon us now.

The fact is that the clubs strategy and direction post Eindhoven was bizarre to say the least - so many decisions were made that were utterly baffling. We were fully responsible for our own downfall.

We were certainly in an unsustainable position but you can't say that we have managed ourselves out of that position in a controlled way - it has been something akin to car crash TV over the past few seasons.

I still think we've got a long way to go before we get promoted - we've had a fantastic start but we haven't got the players to continue the momentum. BUt we are certainly heading in the right direction and there is light at the end of the tunnel.

Adi_Dem Posted on 27/08/2011 23:23
Relegation - the start of something special?

No, I'm not saying that this is the result of good management or that it's all been part of a master plan. All I am saying is that maybe relegation was the catalyst.

MFC_Riverside Posted on 27/08/2011 23:23
Relegation - the start of something special?

Degsy, he answers most of your post by saying, "Now, not by design, but as a result of a culmination of a number of errors and a number of difficulties we ended up being relegated and let's face it we went through some quite worrying and difficult times."

oooooo Posted on 27/08/2011 23:26
Relegation - the start of something special?

degsy, I agree fully with that.

We tend to look at the relegation and subsequent stalling as a wake-up call to supporters but I think it has shocked the club more than us.

degsyspesh Posted on 27/08/2011 23:27
Relegation - the start of something special?

Again to a point I agree, but relegation was the catalyst for appointing strachan, not mowbray.

We've only got to where we are now because strahan had zero ability when it came to motivating and organising players.

I agree with your main point though that hopefully in a few years when we are established back in the premiership on a firm financial footing we will look back on the championship as being a turning point in the fortunes of the club.

Adi_Dem Posted on 27/08/2011 23:27
Relegation - the start of something special?

That's what I said ooooooooo, it has forced the club to correct a lot of what it had wrong.

MFC_Riverside Posted on 27/08/2011 23:29
Relegation - the start of something special?

degsy, he's said we made mistakes, I assume that includes apointing Strachan.

degsyspesh Posted on 27/08/2011 23:33
Relegation - the start of something special?

MFC_R - I'm not being pedantic and I know what Adi said - all my point is is that, if anything, the catalyst for where we are now was the abject failure of Strachan who spent what was seemingly the last of gibbo's available funding and nearly got us relegated.

mossboss Posted on 27/08/2011 23:34
Relegation - the start of something special?

My big, pleasant suprise these days, is the ammount of kids with Boro kits on playing football in the streets of Teesside,the big knobs (Man Utd / Liverpool / Chelsea) are dwindling.

oooooo Posted on 27/08/2011 23:36
Relegation - the start of something special?

I don't think what degsy and adi are saying are that different but for some (IMO) minor nitpickings.

Let's put it this way, our relegation was one event but if you talk about our whole period from mid 2006 until now rather than just relegation as a specific event, the whole experience has been a wake-up call.

You both seem to agree that it was not planned but we are where we are.

degsyspesh Posted on 27/08/2011 23:38
Relegation - the start of something special?

indeed [^]

MFC_Riverside Posted on 27/08/2011 23:39
Relegation - the start of something special?

Exactly, oooooo. [^]

Anyway, we all hope that it will be something special.

UTB. [^]

sasboro1 Posted on 27/08/2011 23:53
Relegation - the start of something special?

only something special if it means we end up back established in the top flight again.. but by then we will be back spending big with £45m per year buring a hole in our pocket trying to compete to stay up. higher wages,bigger fees, desperate to stay up..the cycle starts again

sasboro1 Posted on 27/08/2011 23:56
Relegation - the start of something special?

only something special if it means we end up back established in the top flight again.. but by then we will be back spending big with £45m per year buring a hole in our pocket trying to compete to stay up. higher wages,bigger fees, desperate to stay up..the cycle starts again

sasboro1 Posted on 27/08/2011 23:57
Relegation - the start of something special?

only something special if it means we end up back established in the top flight again.. but by then we will be back spending big with £45m per year buring a hole in our pocket trying to compete to stay up. higher wages,bigger fees, desperate to stay up..the cycle starts again

Adi_Dem Posted on 27/08/2011 23:57
Relegation - the start of something special?

No it doesn't sas. I don't think we will ever go back to the old model. Plenty of clubs, including Mowbray's WBA operate in a different way. That, coupled with the income from Rockcliffe, ought to allow us to develop it differently.

"only something special if it means we end up back established in the top flight again"

That's exactly my point as set out in the OP.

Emmersons_BrazillianDong Posted on 28/08/2011 00:00
Relegation - the start of something special?

Adi [^]

The Dude still thinks you were wrong about ginger though [:D][^]

sasboro1 Posted on 28/08/2011 00:01
Relegation - the start of something special?

editted WTF, going on with my computer/internet? [:(]

MFC_Riverside Posted on 28/08/2011 00:02
Relegation - the start of something special?

Sas, it's hard to predict how things will turn out but I think that Gibson and Mowbray will do it differently this time ( if we get back up that is ).

Adi_Dem Posted on 28/08/2011 00:03
Relegation - the start of something special?

I was wrong about Ginger! Not afraid to admit it!

sasboro1 Posted on 28/08/2011 00:06
Relegation - the start of something special?

well we shall see IF we go up and IF we stay up. we are barely into the season and a long way to go yet.

WBA under mowbray came straight back down. IF we went up we WILL have to spend quite a bit to compete. but we can just do a blackpool and take the money and run and hope we stay up. there is a massive step up to the prem

Emmersons_BrazillianDong Posted on 28/08/2011 00:08
Relegation - the start of something special?

I was too Adi [^]

Lisbonlegend Posted on 28/08/2011 00:19
Relegation - the start of something special?

Appointing Mowbray was the catalyst, not relegation.

JLinardi Posted on 28/08/2011 02:05
Relegation - the start of something special?

I think if we go up, we will invest as little of the money as possible and just hope for the best. £25m of reclaimed money will work wonders for us. And if we did go back down we would get more millions in parachute payments.

br14 Posted on 28/08/2011 03:14
Relegation - the start of something special?

"What that has ultimately allowed us to do is clear the financial decks by completely stripping the club of any excess fat"

Has it really though?

There has been a dramatic change because unlike in past years Steve Gibson has so much invested in the club he can invest no more.

He's absorbed a further 50 million of the club debt into his holding companies but I was under the impression the club still has a pretty big mortgage to pay. And his massive investment can't even be worth half what he paid so it would be foolhardy indeed for him to invest more.

In the event we get promoted, even with the additional TV cash I don't believe the club will be able to invest in the team to the levels needed, and so we begin a cycle of relegation and if we're lucky promotion.

If club management is prudent, they may be able to make enough profit during the promotion years from the TV money to eventually truly clear the decks, but that could take a decade.

If staying in the Premier League without using all the TV cash were possible then maybe we could clear the financial decks sooner. But that is unlikely.

The cause is the Premier League distribution structure which is broken. It will only be fixed when either the rich clubs depart to a different league, or the league splits its income more equitably.

Personally I'd guess the former because I imagine that's actually what all these foreign investors are after.

BoroGary78 Posted on 28/08/2011 04:20
Relegation - the start of something special?

I think that is a brilliant post.

(Warning, long rant)

I still submit to saying that it would be better (for the club) if we didn't go up this season. Just to give mogga more time to get on correct financial footing and build the team he wants to. Not having to panic and worry about staying in the premier league and making wholesale changes.

Steve McClaren started the financial rot. While I appreciate the cup and European adventure. He did bring large financial complications and long contracts. He also didn't bring entertaining football.

Southgate, while as a man and a player I can do nothing but praise, didn't have the bottle to make it. He did try to bring in better football, didn't have the experience or nounce to make it work.

Strachan, I now see as a stepping stone. An intermediate, a piece of the puzzle that was fate making us wait until Mogga was free from his contract (not completely but still).

This is a rebirth, a new beginning. A time of stripping out some of the old high earners with little commitment to a new breed, a new philosophy.
I believed the fans would see this new more expansive football and embrace the changes (after some of today's ridiculous criticism I'm not so sure)

I look at how during a game the switches from right to left with simple passing and it pleases me. It's good to watch.

Then I look at our local rivals. Newcastle and Sunderland are in the Premiership but I don't envy them. I feel sorry for them.

Newcastle can only dream of a Gibson. They have a ridiculous stupid owner wanting to profit. Happy to rip out the heart of their team for a few quid.

Sunderland have spent loads and are worse off squad wise than they were, Bruce is doing a poor job. Buying what, 10 players this year after he's been there 3 years. Oh yeah, man's got vision (sarcasm)

We have a good manager, OVERACHIEVING (for what we have right now), building a squad.

I don't think I'd have it any other way.

For me this season, it's good to be a season ticket holder. Jesus how long has it been since we've seen a peach like Martin scored? How much did he cost?

Sorry for the long rant. But now is a time to believe, accept and be patient for what looks to be a great future.

Up the Boro.

Adi_Dem Posted on 28/08/2011 07:27
Relegation - the start of something special?

Yes br14 it has. Out of necessity. I keep on repeating this but the debt is manageable because of the major restructuring tht took place in the season before relegation. What we've now done is accept that our previous approach was unsustainable.

I firmly believe that we will reinvest in the squad following promotion bur not in the same way. We won't over extend but our income will jump up allowing that investment from a position of financial security And with an almost blank canvas.

The plan is clear - better value for money from then salaries we do pay, better football to attract more fans through the door, even more reliance on our academy, additional revenue from being in the top league and the equivalent of 20000 fans worth of income every week from Rockcliffe.

All of those things will help us sustain our Premier League status and of course we might go down but we will be better equipped to cope and better equipped to get back again.

As I say the club has and continues to change for the better.

Sas - I'm not sure you're actually getting the point I'm making here.

George1507 Posted on 28/08/2011 07:42
Relegation - the start of something special?

...the equivalent of 20000 fans worth of income every week from Rockcliffe...
This is an interesting post, but I'm afraid that MFC has just traded one unsustainable model (being in the Prem League) for another(not being in the Prem League). Until players' wages are slashed (and I do mean slashed) to realistic levels then football in England isn't sustainable.

On a side note, it'll be a very very long time before Rockliffe makes any money, let alone £400K per week.




Jon77 Posted on 28/08/2011 07:46
Relegation - the start of something special?

Good thread [^] Good to see some quality on FMTTM [^]

I agree with a poster above who stated that we didn't need to get relegated from the prem to learn some of the lessons we have learn't over the last 3 or 4 years.

You look back at the money wasted on the likes of Alves and Mido, we had the opportunity then to invest wisely with that money, but we blew it big time.

I agree though that with Mowbray we are a club heading in the right direction again. We wont go up this season but will will get there with Mogga soon [^]

Adi_Dem Posted on 28/08/2011 07:48
Relegation - the start of something special?

Except that our current position is sustainable.

A different approach is required if and when we get promoted but other clubs have shown that they can make it worth.

As for Rockcliffe, every week was a bit misleading. It is projected to provide the equivalent income to the club of 20000 additional fans through the door of home games. Those projections forecast that it won't be too long before it does produce that sort of income.

It can be done and other clubs have done it.

Jonny_Rondos_Disco_pants Posted on 28/08/2011 07:58
Relegation - the start of something special?

Adi, I think the club has a feel good factor brought about by the Mowbray appointment. Players sold to cut wages etc and I felt we were asking for further trouble on the pitch but the players left have a sense of pride instilled in them by Mogga. I think Gibbo probably has a better relationship with Mowbray than any other previous manager. We're not being lied to, Mowbray speaks with honesty, we know the direction we are going.

I hope we make the play off final and win it. A day out at Wembley is what Mowbray deserves.

As a side note Rockliffe is a great asset. 8 of us played golf there as a one off, we were so impressed we're going again. We have probably told 100 others how good it was, they want to go and see for themselves.


r00fie Posted on 28/08/2011 08:04
Relegation - the start of something special?

sometimes we all need to come down to earth with a bump. Only then do people realise what theyve got and be grateful for it.A kick in the pants is aa effective way of keeping complacency at bay.Like a kid who gets whatever it wants, it never learns the value of anything. Football is the same: we`ve had a good roller coaster ride, now hold on because we`re off on another one.

It may not be riveting watching Doncaster Rovers, Coventry and Crystal Palace, but its a reminder of how far we got when basking in the sun in Eindhoven and smiling at the lads on the top of the bus holding the Carling Cup aloft.

We start afresh and build again, just like we did in 1986[^]

BrucieRiochsRedAndWhiteArmy Posted on 28/08/2011 08:19
Relegation - the start of something special?

I used to go on the Gazette board around 5 years ago when the idiots who complained about us only being 5th in the EPL and not having the 'ambition' to invest to be the best team in the league.

I pointed out that they would look back on that period as a golden era and we may not even be in the top flight in a few years time, and if you can't enjoy it you'll never be happy.

Hmmm. [rle]

We will probably get back and will always have a blend of local lads, bargain buys and the odd big money gamble.

And some fans will, once again, fail to grasp reality and compain because we aren't above Man Utd in the league.

joseph99 Posted on 28/08/2011 08:25
Relegation - the start of something special?

This philosophical argument that relegation has catalysed a new Mogga-Boro era is true. Continual collosal misjudgements, management interference, utter complacency, tolerating incompetence, ignoring the fan base, milking the fan base, pathetic scouting system, playing fantasy football in the PL - all actions that Gibson is guilty of - have forced him to listen to the fans. Let's hope he continues to strive to keep the club fit, now that the first signs of fitness are evident.

I also think Gibson should perhaps continue listening to the fan base and not allow his ego to undermine them and their views.

BrucieRiochsRedAndWhiteArmy Posted on 28/08/2011 08:33
Relegation - the start of something special?

Can't agree with a lot of that Joseph. We could have got Mowbray to replace Southgate before we were relegated and made the relevant changes without the need for relegation.

The fact that Mowbray has been appointed after our relegation doesn't mean it was the only he could have been appointed.

(Sorry if I've repeated anyone's arguments)

degsyspesh Posted on 28/08/2011 09:05
Relegation - the start of something special?

A few points....

1) We have a massive debt because we bought our way to premiership success, winning a cup and the UEFA fairy tail. I don't believe that that period of the clubs history was ever supposed to be financially sustainable. I think it was down to Gibbo - "having a go". Immediately following Eindhoven the club began to restructure the financial set up of the club.

2) As I said above, the catalogue of failures that occurred between Eindhoven and appointing Mowbray is truly staggering. Every club makes mistakes - some more than others but we seemed to make a complete f'ck up at pretty much every turn for a period of 4 1/2 years - the appointments of Southgate and Strachan, the signings of Alves, Mido, Digard, Hoyte, Boyd, Emnes (OK he's had a good start to the season but at the time the money could have been significantly better spent), getting rid of Boateng, Rochembach and Cattermole without replacement, failing to replace Schwarzer. etc etc. BUT - we are where we are, after all of the shoite of previous seasons the appointment of Mowbray and the way that he is managing the team is like a breath of fresh air. We are undoubtedly going in the right direction. My annoyance is that it would have been so so much easier if this had happened 4 1/2 years earlier.

3) I don't think our current position is truly sustainable - it may be in terms of income vs wages but we still have a massive debt with realistically no way of paying it back while we are in the championship. OK, I agree that the debt is manageable for as long as Gibbo is prepared to manage it but the only way it is going to be reduced to a more reasonable figure is by getting promoted (either that or somebody coming up with £30M for Emnes after he has hit 50 goals this season and won the Golden Boot for Holland in the 2012 European cup....)

4) If and when we are promoted it will be very interesting to see how we invest in the squad - I completely agree that it is very unlikely that we would go on a spending spree like we have done in the past, but will we just "do a Blackpool" and spend as little as possible, hope for the best and then just gladly accept another tranche of parachute payments if we get relegated?

Nero Posted on 28/08/2011 09:10
Relegation - the start of something special?

Although I know where the original post is coming from I completely disagree.

Once McClaren left for England a proper manager (like Mowbray) should have been appointed.

Gibson was heavily influenced by Terry Venables and made a stupid romantic choice in appointing Southgate. He should have been prepared to use the money received from England as compensation for another manager. Gibson has recently said that maybe he should have approached Mowbray sooner. Damn right he should have. 2006 was the time.

Imagine what Mowbray could have done with a Premier League squad and over £25 million to spend.

Bill_Leather Posted on 28/08/2011 09:16
Relegation - the start of something special?

Great discussion.

Degsy - just for clarification. 'My annoyance is that it would have been so so much easier if this had happened 4 1/2 years earlier.'

Do you mean here the appointment of Mogga? And if so was he available at the time? I can't remember.

Adi_Dem Posted on 28/08/2011 09:19
Relegation - the start of something special?

Degsy, we have been here before of course but we are repaying the debt and are in a pretty comfortable position in that respect. The next set of accounts will be very telling. It really is sustainable and is more than manageable. The club is on a pretty secure financial footing.

Nero, I'm not sure you are actually disagreeing with me. I already said that there has been a catalogue of errors at all levels and I accept that it could have all been prevented but that doesn't move away from the main point which is that I believe we will look back on that relegation as a key turning point which refocussed the club. Whether relegation ought to have been necessary to trigger that change is a different point.

joseph99 Posted on 28/08/2011 09:34
Relegation - the start of something special?

BrucieRiochsRedAndWhiteArmy : I was merely agreeing with the philosophy that it is possible to learn from mistakes.

I think to suggest that Mogga's Boro is a direct consequence of releagtion is a touch romantic and over mitigating. If it was then perhaps a spell in Div 2 would be a superb fillip.

mwelolo Posted on 28/08/2011 09:41
Relegation - the start of something special?

The catalyst was undoubtedly the apointment of Mowbray, following the further, and let's face it potentially fatal, blunder of appointing Strachan.

Things are now looking much better and for the first time in years there is a developing feel good factor and Mowbray desereves no end of credit for bringing this about.

However there is an extremely long way to go to get us back were we were.

EUFA cup final is light years away.

We are going well at the moment but the prospect of injuries and suspensions is a very worrying one for our squad.

If we were able to get back up to the Premiership again our financial position would be extremely limiting.It's hard to see us being able to do anything other then tread water and start the whole yo yo dance again.

Adi_Dem Posted on 28/08/2011 09:51
Relegation - the start of something special?

It's neither romantic nor mitigating. I am simply saying that I expect Mowbray to get us promoted and I also expect that he will guide us to security in the top division and we will be a very different club to the one that went down. Everything we will be, in my view, began with relegation so all I'm suggesting is that maybe the pain and suffering it caused, when taken as part of our history, might be seen as the catalyst for necessary change.

I don't think we will ever see the UEFA Final days again actually but I'm not sure it matters to me all that much.


degsyspesh Posted on 28/08/2011 09:55
Relegation - the start of something special?

B_L - 4 1/2 years ago we needed the appointment of a decent manager, be that Mowbray or somebody else. Just not Southgate.

Adi - I think we've got to the level of semantics, I'm perfectly happy that the debt is manageable for as long as gibbo wants it to be - I just don't think that it is sustainable in the long term for a Championship club to have debts of £50M (or whatever the figure is now).

mwelolo Posted on 28/08/2011 09:55
Relegation - the start of something special?

It is entirely romantic Adi, you just can't help all this syrupyness.

joseph99 Posted on 28/08/2011 09:56
Relegation - the start of something special?

Football is about personal opinions and gaping differences exist between those employed to do similar jobs at football clubs, hence can live with different opinions on an anonymous msg board.

For me, the first signs were utter complacency and incompetence when nestled in the PL. The first major worry (for me|) was when Hotye came in for Young on the basis of good business. Awful, truly awful decision.

Adi_Dem Posted on 28/08/2011 10:06
Relegation - the start of something special?

Is that why you like it mwelolo?

mwelolo Posted on 28/08/2011 10:16
Relegation - the start of something special?

Not entirley sure I would use the like word.

Adi_Dem Posted on 28/08/2011 10:27
Relegation - the start of something special?

I'm sure you would.

Northwestboro Posted on 28/08/2011 10:29
Relegation - the start of something special?

Good post Adi, We need to live within our means now

I'm sure that when we do achieve Promotion, we will take a leaf out if WBA's book and Spend very cautiously
You don't need to spend ridiculous amounts of money on players, Wigan have done well over the years within a budget they set themselves for example. The days have long gone of an average rated player wanting £30-£40k a week. We will no longer be part of that .

UTB

Elmo Posted on 28/08/2011 10:32
Relegation - the start of something special?

On COB is a link asking to be posted on here


Link: Rodders

Jonny_Rondos_Disco_pants Posted on 28/08/2011 10:37
Relegation - the start of something special?

Don't think Wigan live within their budget. Once Whelan goes it's bye bye wigan, back to the div 1 /2.

degsyspesh Posted on 28/08/2011 10:40
Relegation - the start of something special?

It's pretty much impossible to survive in the premiership while living within your own means - you either spend additional money on players and wages or you eventually get relegated.

Gillandi Posted on 28/08/2011 10:48
Relegation - the start of something special?

Excellent op Adi, nailed it mate [^]

mwelolo Posted on 28/08/2011 10:56
Relegation - the start of something special?

Dream on Adi.

Adi_Dem Posted on 28/08/2011 11:08
Relegation - the start of something special?

I don't agree with you there degsy.

That link is slightly different. I don't believe we 'needed' relegation. We could and probably should have done things differently long before relegation. What I am saying is that relegation has resulted in a major overhaul that might be looked back upon positively.

degsyspesh Posted on 28/08/2011 11:10
Relegation - the start of something special?

didn't think you would......[:D][;)]

Adi_Dem Posted on 28/08/2011 11:11
Relegation - the start of something special?

Degsy - [:D]

Thanks Gillandi.

joseph99 Posted on 28/08/2011 11:11
Relegation - the start of something special?

There's been a few catalysts over the years. Kieth Lamb said McClaren was financially wreckless, this was a catalyst for all the cloth cutting whilst in the PL.

Adi_Dem Posted on 28/08/2011 11:15
Relegation - the start of something special?

Given that McClaren had nothing to do with budgets or offers made to players I always found that to be a bit of arse covering on the part of Lamb.

One of McClaren's remits when appointed was to lower the wage bill, grow our own trees and 'cut our cloth'.

I think a lot of that went out of the window when we tasted success but it wasn't McClaren that did the financial damage, it was relegation.

plazmuh Posted on 28/08/2011 11:35
Relegation - the start of something special?

I think one day we will look back at the EUROPEAN Journey as the straw that broke our camels back..
Yes i know some folk would never change that but those extra games drained the crap outta the league form and for me the only real achievement was qualifying via our league position..
They say the table never lies and rather than qualifying via a cup win the league position will stand the test of time..
Now is better, Long gone are the foam fingered over the top hangeronners..
We are left with our hardcore 15.000 loyalists who will be there regardless of success of failure..
And if fortune smiles on us again we will travel that road as a strong Teesside arby in unity and purpose..
Long live this new spirit..
UTB
Regards
Plazmuh
[:D][:D][^]

woodymfc Posted on 28/08/2011 11:37
Relegation - the start of something special?

Excellent post [^]
IMWT [pa]

br14 Posted on 28/08/2011 19:03
Relegation - the start of something special?

"the debt is manageable because of the major restructuring tht took place in the season before relegation"

The debt may be manageable, but it's as much as the club will be able to borrow. And don't forget that debt is secured against the personal assets of Steve Gibson. He's going to want to pay that off as soon as possible and restructure the finance again.

Premier League salaries will absorb most of the TV money if we are promoted (which will most likely be via the playoffs if at all).

Leaving us little cash to invest in the kind of squad necessary to survive in the Premier League. And frankly given the past few years would you want to take the risk even if we were promoted?

Whatever the payments on the debt, we have Premier League debt levels still but with a Championship income.

So don't be fooled into thinking everything in the garden is rosey. Tony Mowbray is doing an amazing job but he needs the fans to have realistic expectations. That means a top half finish with hopefully the chance of playoffs. More than that is possible but unlikely with our squad.

And if the club had any money we'd have had a few more players in by now.

The manager has made it quite clear we're still not out of the woods financially. We had to sell to bring in the few players we have done.

Not that I disagree with the general optimism. I just think we need to get our expectations under control.

The good news is we're not likely to enter administration, and we have a manager that will provide entertaining football and at least give us a chance at promotion. I'm just grateful for that.

Adi_Dem Posted on 28/08/2011 19:11
Relegation - the start of something special?

"So don't be fooled into thinking everything in the garden is rosey"

Where did I suggest it was?

We're tight financially, never sought to argue otherwise but we're on a sound footing now and will be able to build in the coming seasons. The debt has an asset backed, long term facility and an overdraft to fund the ongoing running of the club. Over the last couple of seasons the debt has been eroded significantly - just wait and see in the next set of accounts. The problem that we've been making strides to address has been one of overhead and that is now under control.

My expectations are also very much under control.

I think we will get promoted under Mogga but not this season. I think, following promotion, we will always be fighting relegation and will never get back to where we were under McClaren.

But, as I've said, I'm not sure that matters to me that much. We'll have a better club built on a solid foundation playing attractive football. That will be more than enough for me.

sheriff_john_bunnell Posted on 28/08/2011 19:29
Relegation - the start of something special?

I thourougly enjoyed the mcclaren years. The best footballers I've ever seen play for the club, a couple of European adventures which I never thought we would have, winning our only ever trophy. Good football Same goes for robson to some extent.
I'm more than preperared to put up with the hangover for a few years. To he'll with sustainable models. Let's pay off our debts in whichsoever way we can, dust ourselves off then have another go. I'd hate to be just another team to make up the numbers.
Hopefully Mowbray will be here for many years to come and well get another crack at the big time with a man who has the potential to be the best manager we've ever had.

Adi_Dem Posted on 28/08/2011 19:30
Relegation - the start of something special?

I do like that idea sheriff I just don't think it's realistic.

Decent_Left Posted on 28/08/2011 19:42
Relegation - the start of something special?

I'm a bit dissappointef that in the OP the "cutting of excess fat" quote was trotted out without reference to the many back office staff on not large salaries laid off as a consequence of making extraordinarily untalented young men millionaires.

I'd like to hear their opinion on their part on this turning point.

sheriff_john_bunnell Posted on 28/08/2011 19:44
Relegation - the start of something special?

It depends on what happens with the bonkers finances of the premier league and whether there is a breakaway.
I see southgates reign as an attempt at a sustainable club. I think everyone was caught up in this ridiculous hubris of thinking you can just waltz over to France or holland pick up a young player then sell him on for a profit. It doesn't work like that as we don't have the in depth scouting of a champions league club and if a young player was any good they would have picked them up anyway.
Unless football changes completely I think boom and bust is the only way you can go for a club like ours.

Adi_Dem Posted on 28/08/2011 19:55
Relegation - the start of something special?

I don't agree about Southgate sherriff but that's a different thread!!

Come on now Decent Left, the cutting of excess fat quote was directly related to playing staff, anyone can see that.

Of course I feel sorry for those that lost their jobs as a result of relegation but this thread isn't about them, it's about the playing staff and the running of the club.

I'm disappointed that you chose to take it that way.

yobbo1 Posted on 28/08/2011 20:00
Relegation - the start of something special?

Excellent post Adi.I hope you are right.

br14 Posted on 28/08/2011 22:56
Relegation - the start of something special?

"it wasn't McClaren that did the financial damage, it was relegation"

Relegation was consequence of financial damage. Not it's primary cause.

Adi_Dem Posted on 28/08/2011 23:14
Relegation - the start of something special?

Let's just agree to differ on that. As usual!!

gravy173 Posted on 28/08/2011 23:42
Relegation - the start of something special?

I think your point is flawed - maybe appointing mogga might be viewed as the start though.

Getting relegated was just part of the southgate car crash, strachan was a total disaster following relegation too nd this wasnt special

[V]

degsyspesh Posted on 28/08/2011 23:58
Relegation - the start of something special?

"Relegation was consequence of financial damage. Not it's primary cause."

No it wasn't - we spent more than enough money to stay up - we just spent it all on the wrong players (Alves, Mido, Hoyte, Digard, Emnes) and got rid of players that we should have kept (Schwarzer, Boateng, Rochembach, Cattermole).

borobarmy1 Posted on 29/08/2011 00:16
Relegation - the start of something special?

good post guys . What will equip us for this journey is that we've been there before hence no hidden ghouls to derail us . Seen it all before has Boro

Ilsan_Boro Posted on 29/08/2011 00:49
Relegation - the start of something special?

I notice a few people are saying "if only we'd appointed Mowbray instead of Southgate."

That's an understandable sentiment, but I'm not sure it's as simple as that. It needs to be remembered that, in the season Southgate took us down, Mowbray was in charge of the only team to fare even worse than us in the league that year.

Don't get me wrong, I'm delighted that Mowbray is our manager NOW, and am relatively optimistic about the future under his reign. But I'm also fairly sure that one of the reasons for him being such a good manager is that he's an observant, thoughtful fella who learns quickly from his mistakes. And back then were relatively early days in his time as a manager. Late 2010 turned out to be a good time to appoint Mowbray - as well as all his local credentials, he was a wiser head than a few years before and was also inheriting a situation that would buy him the kind of patience and time that managers need to turn things around. Very different from the situationhe would have inherited post-Eindhoven, where he likely would have been a more inexperienced manager on a hiding to nothing.

Southgate was the wrong appointment, although I think it's fairer to say the mistake was not Southgate per se, but appointing a rookie manager to deal with what is one of the most difficult jobs in football - taking over a smallish top flight team that has just reached a peak it now has to make the best of an inevitable descent from, hopefully not falling too far or too fast. That probably called for a manager with the kind of experience, nous, connections and pulling power that could squeeze the absolute best out of the decreasing amount that was available to spend. There are a few that would have ticked those boxes, but I doubt that either (a) any of them would have come cheap or (b) many of them would have taken the job given an honest appraisal of the finances they'd have to deal with.

A lot of good points have been made on this thread, but I tend to agree with sheriff john in that, looking back, I enjoyed the MacLaren years that brought a trophy and European success to my club that I'd never seen before and may never seen again and can take the inevitable hangover that comes with 'going for broke' like we did. In fact, when you think about it, things have gone a lot better for us overall than many other clubs who overspent and 'went for broke'. There are quite a few who achieved less than us and fell considerably further in the aftermath.

degsyspesh Posted on 29/08/2011 00:58
Relegation - the start of something special?

Ilsan_Boro - excellent post [^][^][^]

In hindsight the Maclaren years were amazing - as you say, we may never see boro play the same level of football again in our lifetime.

BUT, I equally remember the majority of fans (myself included) truly hated the style of football at the time. Maclaren played a percentage game and was generally very good at it. After the flamboyance of Robbo's early years Maclaren's football was truly dour by comparison (UEFA comebacks excepted) and most of the fans would have given anything for excitement. Maclaren didn't exactly endear himself with the fans either.

I much preferred Robbo's tenure to Maclarens, OK we weren't as successful - but we weren't as bored either.

joseph99 Posted on 29/08/2011 08:40
Relegation - the start of something special?

Adi "Given that McClaren had nothing to do with budgets or offers made to players I always found that to be a bit of arse covering on the part of Lamb.

One of McClaren's remits when appointed was to lower the wage bill, grow our own trees and 'cut our cloth'."

It might have been arse covering but it was the first sign that there were significant financial cracks in the MFC model. This was well ahead of any relegation. To re-iterate this manifested in MFC selling Young for Hoyte, a faux pa for many reasons.

paulmboro Posted on 29/08/2011 08:46
Relegation - the start of something special?

As if Rodders registered a new name on here just to link to post he made years ago after no one paid attention to his request on DumbOnBoro [:o)]

Abel_Tasman Posted on 29/08/2011 08:47
Relegation - the start of something special?

And yet, whilst cracks were appearing in that flawed financial model, we then went and splashed out, in hindsight recklessly, on a vastly over priced striker from Holland. That was the most baffling of decisions.

paulmboro Posted on 29/08/2011 08:51
Relegation - the start of something special?

"we didn't need to be relegated to make the changes that have been forced upon us now." - this is spot on from degsy, the OP isn't.

MFC_Riverside Posted on 29/08/2011 08:55
Relegation - the start of something special?

""we didn't need to be relegated to make the changes that have been forced upon us now." - this is spot on from degsy, the OP isn't."

Adi's not saying we NEEDED to be relegated for us to make the changes. He is saying that it was relegation that made us relise the mistakes people have made and us as a club have made and therefore to come up with a solution to rectify these mistakes.

paulmboro Posted on 29/08/2011 08:59
Relegation - the start of something special?

and no where did I say he did, nor did degsy. [:o)]

Adi_Dem Posted on 29/08/2011 09:10
Relegation - the start of something special?

No but you stated that degsy's point was correct and the OP wasn't. That more than implies that you believed the two views to be opposed ergo you were, implicitly, saying that the OP suggested we needed to be relegated to implement the changes described, which is plainly wrong.

Oh and [:o)]

MFC_Riverside Posted on 29/08/2011 09:13
Relegation - the start of something special?

Thanks Adi. I couldn't be botherd going round in circles with another [:o)] who can't work out what opinions imply and that if you disagree with one you must agree with another.

paulmboro Posted on 29/08/2011 09:14
Relegation - the start of something special?

no where did I say you did say that, nor did I imply that you did

would you like me to draw you a picture adi or have understood [:o)]

Adi_Dem Posted on 29/08/2011 09:14
Relegation - the start of something special?

Joseph - it wasn't the first sign at all. For many years the club had been talking about it standing on it's own financial feet, about the club the town could afford, about cutting our cloth.

There is a long line of quotes going back a number of years that confirm that there was a recognition of the need to change our direction financially. However, whilst we were in the top flight those were strategic financial planning and restructuring decisions that culminated in a major restructuring in late 2008 IIRC. The financial position was manageable and was being managed.

As soon as we were relegated all of those financial plans went up in smoke and it was the catalyst for major change and the sweeping cuts that have had to be made since.

MFC_Riverside Posted on 29/08/2011 09:15
Relegation - the start of something special?

I haven't understood, can you draw me a picture?

Please. [sad]

paulmboro Posted on 29/08/2011 09:15
Relegation - the start of something special?

"who can't work out what opinions imply and that if you disagree with one you must agree with another." - it's not my fault if you choose to deliberately misunderstand a comment then get upset when it is explained to you that you were wrong.

wind your neck in son

Adi_Dem Posted on 29/08/2011 09:16
Relegation - the start of something special?

Paul, it's quite clear which of us doesn't understand, you're providing good evidence of that.

I can continue to make you look daft all day if you wish but to be honest you do such a good job of it on your own it's a shame to interfere.

MFC_Riverside Posted on 29/08/2011 09:17
Relegation - the start of something special?

I'm not getting upset. If I'm wrong I'm wrong and there's nout I can do about it. [8)]

But, I do think I need a picture to understand what you're going on about. [^]

Adi_Dem Posted on 29/08/2011 09:18
Relegation - the start of something special?

I think we all do.

paulmboro Posted on 29/08/2011 09:19
Relegation - the start of something special?

I agree with degsy's comment that i quoted. i don't particularity agree with your opening post.

It's really that simple adi. no need to start getting upset and insulting especially when that is apparently beneath you

mwelolo Posted on 29/08/2011 09:20
Relegation - the start of something special?

The man is an arce.(Paulm that is)

paulmboro Posted on 29/08/2011 09:21
Relegation - the start of something special?

"If I'm wrong I'm wrong and there's nout I can do about it." - you are. Here's a pic.

I didn't draw it though


Link: http://www.themistermen.co.uk/images/MrWrong.jpg

Adi_Dem Posted on 29/08/2011 09:22
Relegation - the start of something special?

As I already said, I like to respond at the level I'm faced with. I'm not sure I've read a response from you that hasn't included an insult. It's very telling.

Read my post again as it explains perfectly well why it was reasonable for MFC to correct you. If you have now changed your mind as to the point you're making then no problem with me, just do it without insulting people, there's a good lad.

MFC_Riverside Posted on 29/08/2011 09:23
Relegation - the start of something special?

If that is meant to make me understand what you're going on about regarding relegation then it needs some work. Thanks for trying though. [^]

paulmboro Posted on 29/08/2011 09:26
Relegation - the start of something special?

You must be incredibly fragile and insecure to get upset simply because i happened to think your post wasn't "spot on".

let it go Adi. not everyone is going to agree with everything you say all the time.

paulmboro Posted on 29/08/2011 09:29
Relegation - the start of something special?

"If that is meant to make me understand what you're going on about regarding relegation then it needs some work." - Hmmm, are you disagreeing with what degsy's said then?

i agree with him - we didn't need to be relegated to see the situation the club is in now. I take it you think otherwise. Yes?

Adi_Dem Posted on 29/08/2011 09:29
Relegation - the start of something special?

[:D]

No problem with anyone disagreeing, as this thread proves.

Where I have a problem is in you insulting a reasonable poster responding to your post in a reasonable way, especially when that poster correctly interpreted your post.

paulmboro Posted on 29/08/2011 09:35
Relegation - the start of something special?

I can't stop people from interpreting my comments any way they wish to. I can though correct their assessment when wrong as I have done twice.

no harm done. you just need to calm a little and take a deep breath adi. it's not the end of the world simply because someone isn't in agreement with you.

Adi_Dem Posted on 29/08/2011 09:37
Relegation - the start of something special?

I'm perfectly calm. I find it quite funny.

Now you may need to sit down here because I'm about to blow your mind.

MFC wasn't wrong and here is why - I agree with the point degsy made.

[:O]

paulmboro Posted on 29/08/2011 09:39
Relegation - the start of something special?

Maybe i should have used a full stop instead of a comma. [xx(]

Adi_Dem Posted on 29/08/2011 09:40
Relegation - the start of something special?

Believe me punctuation is the least of your concerns.

paulmboro Posted on 29/08/2011 09:42
Relegation - the start of something special?

but it's obviously a concern for you.

joseph99 Posted on 29/08/2011 09:42
Relegation - the start of something special?

"The financial position was manageable and was being managed."

Was it Southgate that mentioned the £90M debt? I dont calll that good management..


Holgateoldskool Posted on 29/08/2011 09:44
Relegation - the start of something special?

I really thought this thread was a joke - apparently not.The clubs owners and management got us into the financial situation - right? We were all told not to worry at the time I recall.And now we have a defence for what was some of the worst mismanagement of the club for decades - quite a feat for our club.

To then justify this to say relegation was perhaps a good thing? Quite incredible. Certainly Gibbo must be proud to have such meak followers who will justify all his actions. Gibbo and Lamb made monumentous howlers on and off the pitch.

Surely it was relegation rather than a business plan and failure to secure promotion that resulted in our extensive pruning of costs?

The waste of millions of pounds on poor value transfers, supporting a woeful manager, lack of action in getting rid of him, appointing another failure is not great management in my book. The direction we've gone is because circumstances dictated it rather than Gibbo hatching a master plan.

Adi_Dem Posted on 29/08/2011 09:51
Relegation - the start of something special?

Call it what you want. The vast majority of that debt was owed to Gibson. He effectively put his hand in his pocket to 'have a go' and it worked. Relegation and a global financial crisis hit the club and that's why we have since had to fight the financial fires we have.

Holgate, you're missing the whole point of the OP. I haven't said relegation was a good thing, I'm not justifying anything and in fact have referred to the myriad of mistakes that have got us here and I've also said that it wasn't part of a masterplan. Finally, I've said all along that relegation has resulted in the cost cutting that we now see.

It seems you agree with every point I've made and yet see the thread as a joke!

Holgateoldskool Posted on 29/08/2011 09:57
Relegation - the start of something special?

No Scoea my problem is you appear to be making a positive from a negative and almost offering a defence. What went on at the club was indefensible and if the club was close to impolding it was largely self-inflicted.

Relegation has set us back forever - at least while Gibbo is at the helm.Look at the situation where we can't get a striker in ( or afford to). Can't see how that is a good thing in any way, shape or form.

Adi_Dem Posted on 29/08/2011 10:02
Relegation - the start of something special?

Why is it such a problem to try and make a positive from a negative? I just don't see that at all.

What was 'indefensible'? Mistakes were made and nobody is perfect and yes things could have been handled better but what do you want? You never want to let that go and you want to hang the club forever because of the mistakes?

Much of it was self inflicted but what I now see is a foundation to build upon, the hope of a positive future and I can't for the life of me see why you can't see it or why you're not prepared to look forward instead of backwards.

zaphod Posted on 29/08/2011 10:05
Relegation - the start of something special?

Going bust in 1986 was also the start of something special. It was the reaction to great adversity by the manager, players, fans & investors that made it special, not the near-death experience in 1986 itself.

I think Adi is saying that, after the lesser adversity of relegation & Strachanisation, the club & the manager seem to be seizing a great opportunity to build something special.

If that's what he means, I agree entirely.

Adi_Dem Posted on 29/08/2011 10:06
Relegation - the start of something special?

Zaphod has, very eloquently, hit the nail squarely on the head.

MFC_Riverside Posted on 29/08/2011 10:13
Relegation - the start of something special?

There are some people who seem to have missed the point massively.

paulmboro Posted on 29/08/2011 10:20
Relegation - the start of something special?

"There are some people who seem to have missed the point massively." - i know how you feel.

MawTheMerrier Posted on 29/08/2011 11:18
Relegation - the start of something special?

Relegation was the END of something special.

Check out the history of the club and the previous 10 years had been very special and unprecedented.

I forsee a return to the yo-yo club years, so I disagree with the thread title.

Adi_Dem Posted on 29/08/2011 12:52
Relegation - the start of something special?

That's an interesting perspective. I always said when it was happening that it was our golden era and should be enjoyed because it would be transient. However, I don't think relegation brought that to an end. In hindsight, the final whistle in Eindhoven was the end of that chapter.

All I am saying is that maybe relegation has been the catalyst for a re-think from top to bottom and that Mowbray can now move us forward to something special. Maybe not like before but something.

robbso Posted on 29/08/2011 13:24
Relegation - the start of something special?

If a decent offer come in for Scott mac, he will be sold, his wages are too high. We are skint, there is nothing special about our situation apart from Mogga has got an average squad playing well.

redwurzel Posted on 29/08/2011 13:46
Relegation - the start of something special?

My analogy would be seasons of the year.

Second half of 2008 and 2009 was our autumn, 2010 was our winter. Since the Reading game in March I have seen the green shoots of the spring flowers appearing all over the place, despite the pruning of the 2010 crops. The ground is now clear for full new growth to flourish.I know people are concerned we are not getting 20k crowds but they will come, marginal fans need time to be won back and going to a football match is a financial investment nowadays. Looking a videos of some games 9 months ago, there seems to be a lot more fans in the stadium now. The NW corner was virtually full for the Coventry game and the Red Faction section.

Longer term I think we can sustain a team in lower half of the Premiership and follow the model of say Bolton without having to spend big.

Mogga may have relegated WBA in 2009, but he is learning all the time and has a much better academy at MFC.

On the debt I think it is likely the debt on the club is been paid back on a repayment mortgage basis. The 2011 sales of O'Neill, Wheater, Lita, Digard and Miller all brought some cash in - with approximately 90% unspent to date - suggesting its paying off debt.

I think Rockcliffe Park purpose is to provide free training facilities for the club and to promote/sell the club, rather than generate cash.It looks a long term project, it will take a few more years for the place to establish itself. I can see a lot of potential for it to be used to entertain wealthy overseas people.

Adi_Dem Posted on 29/08/2011 13:54
Relegation - the start of something special?

Excellent post redwurzel.

I agree that a big chunk of our longer term facility debt will have been repaid since the filing of our last accounts and I firmly believe that the financial picture will look a lot healthier in the next accounts filed.

Mowbray is proving himself with every game that passes. I believe he will get us promoted at some point and will be able to keep us up without major outlay.

One slight point I would disagree with is regarding Rockcliffe. Gibson has said a few times that it is there to generate income for the club and that it is projected to provide income that is the equivalent of 20000 extra season ticket holders.

red_shamrock Posted on 29/08/2011 13:58
Relegation - the start of something special?

"Gibson has said a few times that it is there to generate income for the club and that it is projected to provide income that is the equivalent of 20000 extra season ticket holders?"

Have you a link for that?

Adi_Dem Posted on 29/08/2011 14:08
Relegation - the start of something special?

Here is one though it refers to a "revenue stream which will be the equivalent of our current gate income." rather than 20,000 but he has mentioned that figure before.


Link: Here you go

MFC_Riverside Posted on 29/08/2011 14:25
Relegation - the start of something special?

Adi, on a side note did the last accounts include Rockliffe Hall or is that a seperate thing altogether? If it was, how was it performing? I'm unsure there is the kind of wealth in the area needed to keep it going and if people from other areas will come here just to play a nice course.

redwurzel Posted on 29/08/2011 14:27
Relegation - the start of something special?

Hi Adi

Was that written in 2008?

Looking at what happened in September 2009 to the club's debt when MFC debts were moved onto Gibson's own business - it could be that the trade off was that the Rockcliffe Park complex became the assets of Steve Gibson's company and possibly any future profits. However I admit I am only making educated guesses.

I believe you mentioned a few month's ago the next accounts would be interesting.

I can see potential fly in a bunch of wealthy Far Eastern guests in to stay at Rockcliffe, eat and relax, play golf and take in a Boro game. No other club could not do that as conveniently.

Adi_Dem Posted on 29/08/2011 14:33
Relegation - the start of something special?

No the debts weren't moved anywhere, they were paid for by way of share issue. He's said it since. Rockcliffe is planned to provide the club with an income. No one can predict the future but that is certainly the current plan.

No MFC, Rockcliffe has it's own accounts but the complex itself is part of the security for the clubs current debt package as is Brignell Road.

MFC_Riverside Posted on 29/08/2011 14:36
Relegation - the start of something special?

Have you seen any of Rockliffe's accounts? When are they filed?

[^]

joseph99 Posted on 29/08/2011 14:37
Relegation - the start of something special?

"Call it what you want. The vast majority of that debt was owed to Gibson. He effectively put his hand in his pocket to 'have a go' and it worked. Relegation and a global financial crisis hit the club and that's why we have since had to fight the financial fires we have."

You can call it what you like but £90M of debt is NOT good financial management for any business with the turnover it had. And just to reiterate this was all accrued whilst in the PL. Then came the dangerous cut backs on the field to be executed by a combo of /Gibson/Lamb playing management team that used Mr Nice as quasi Manager.

Ridiculous decisions ensued that ensured MFC departed the PL without a fight. Relegation created more financial problems that were exacerbated by the Scottish Experiment.

There's been a plethora of utter fcuk-ups at the club over the years that manifested in the appointment of Mogga - dress it all up as much as you need but it was far from being exclusively down to relegation.

Adi_Dem Posted on 29/08/2011 15:18
Relegation - the start of something special?

It's not necessarily bad financial management if the owner and ultimate creditor is the one carrying the can and making the decisions.

Wipe his part of the debt out and the overall position of the club wasn't as you make it put to be - as long as we stayed in the top division it was manageable. Do you think the sweeping and dramatic changes we are now seeing would have happened without relegation?

All of that said, if you can find where I have argued that it was exclusively down to relegation I'd be impressed.


heaton_mersey_boro Posted on 29/08/2011 15:21
Relegation - the start of something special?

Who is Man Citys' debt owed to?

Sheik Mohammed.

And is in in an hurry to call it in? No. Quite the opposite.

We were in a similar situation with Gibson, bit smaller scale like....[;)]. The debt that was owed to him was restructured and the banks etc are all happy with how we go about repaying it. No worries.

There were massive fcuk-ups on and off the pitch, but its in the past now. It happened. Time to move on. The only thing "good" to come out of it is that the management learn from their mistakes - which they seem to be doing.

We may well have been relegated IF Southgate was'nt manager as we would have not had the finances to spend £20-30m rebuilding the time after the Boatengs / Vidukas / Schwarzers etc left. Who knows.

We are where we are and as a club we seem to be finally moving forward since 4-5 years of shyte on and off the pitch.

Massive part of that is down to Mogga [^]

Adi_Dem Posted on 29/08/2011 15:40
Relegation - the start of something special?

Exactly heaton. I feel hopeful and proud for the first time in a long time.

joseph99 Posted on 29/08/2011 15:47
Relegation - the start of something special?

"It's not necessarily bad financial management if the owner and ultimate creditor is the one carrying the can and making the decisions."

It is when they tighten the noose and suddenly demand their money back. We saw the consequences, combined with a catalogue of inane management decisions. Not sure Gibson's credit rating will be on a par with an Oil Sheikh who were rich enough to part own Barclays at the height of the credit crunch.

Do I think we would have been relegated irrespective of the ineviatble cut backs? I think a better appointment than Southgate would have kept us above the level that were being promoted from the Championship. The club allowed itself to become complacent in many aspects.

joseph99 Posted on 29/08/2011 15:52
Relegation - the start of something special?

Do you think the sweeping and dramatic changes we are now seeing would have happened without relegation?

Do you mean relegation and subsequent awful efforts with two different managers, at huge expense, to gain promotion and in doing so lose out on parachute payments. NO! Companies that are on the verge of going under (like MFC was again) usually come back leaner and meaner until they get fat again.

Adi_Dem Posted on 29/08/2011 17:02
Relegation - the start of something special?

"It is when they tighten the noose and suddenly demand their money back."

You've missed the point. The creditor I was referring to was Gibson who didn't demand his money back, just the opposite in fact.

"Do I think we would have been relegated irrespective of the ineviatble cut backs? I think a better appointment than Southgate would have kept us above the level that were being promoted from the Championship. The club allowed itself to become complacent in many aspects. "

Couldn't agree more.

"Companies that are on the verge of going under (like MFC was again)"

MFC was never in any danger of gong under. If you want to believe rumour and supposition that's fine but it doesn't make it accurate.

As I've already said, we made mistakes both pre and post relegation. That's undeniable. However, to suggest that we would have had to make the same financial decisions had we not been relegated is plainly wrong.

"Companies that are on the verge of going under (like MFC was again) usually come back leaner and meaner until they get fat again."

Well we have come back leaner haven't we? That's set out in the OP. We're a much leaner outfit and better for it, which is kind of the original point.

joseph99 Posted on 29/08/2011 17:41
Relegation - the start of something special?

It was all a bit more than rumour. Unless you know more than the average supporter. Drastic job cuts, such as getting shot of the uber-important Dave Allan and Lamb, massive cut backs in the academy etc is the circumstantial evidence that backed rumours that emanated from within the club.

Yes, it seems atm that MFC is performing much better on the field for a leaner organisation. Linking that progress to relegation rather than the culmination of fcuk ups since relegation is questionable and bordring on niave.

Another thing: had Southgate got MFC promoted in his first season in the Championship would we have seen Mowbray at all? Answer = highly unlikely.

markw_21 Posted on 29/08/2011 18:02
Relegation - the start of something special?

Good read, couldn't agree more Adi [^]

It does make you wonder if SG hoped for relegation... as the way the club was ran, just wasn't sustainable for the PL - Yes, the TV money is good, but with the debt level, I think the club couldn't continue.

Looking to the future, I think SG could easily plan for promotion through the next two seasons; and with a manageable debt level to get promoted with, the good times could well be back very soon...

Adi_Dem Posted on 29/08/2011 18:24
Relegation - the start of something special?

I'll skip past the accusation that what I'm saying is naive because I can't see any other reason for you to post that than I simply disagree with you.

That said, I'm not sure of the point of your argument.

Tt was always just rumour. Gibson dismissed it and it simply isn't backed up by either the filed accounts of the club or the actions taken by its directors, which would have been very different had administration been a real threat.

Job losses were a direct result of relegation. Revenue was slashed and so there were inevitably casualties as a result. That's simple financial reality and not proof of impending administration.

I didn't link our current progress to relegation. That is a fundamental misunderstanding that is common in this thread.

What I'm saying is that the club over a number of years had made any number of mistakes. As a result, we were relegated and yes, I agree, mistakes continued to be made thereafter. As a result we have endured some bloody awful recent times.

However, we would not have ended up where we are today without that relegation. What this post seeks to point out is that maybe in time that relegation will be seen as the catalyst for all of our recent progress and that, ultimately, that progress might end up with a Premier League team we can be proud of making a decent fist of it.

That has been lost somewhere because I genuinely don't understand the point you're making when you say "Another thing: had Southgate got MFC promoted in his first season in the Championship would we have seen Mowbray at all? Answer = highly unlikely."

I agree but so what?

George1507 Posted on 29/08/2011 18:31
Relegation - the start of something special?

I think all of you are missing the point here. It's pretty likely that MFC is still losing money, and fast. Crowds of 17K aren't going to be enough to cover the cost of wages and associated costs - such as the cost of maintaining the stadium.

As for Rockliffe, well it's a 70 bedroom hotel. So if assume that's it's full all the time (which it won't be) at £200 per night, then that's just £5 million a year in revenue. There's a big difference between revenue and profit. I'm sure it will be profitable, but it's never going to return money to the parent company in anywhere near the quantity that some Russian oil billionaire would bring. Yes, there's the golf course too, but golf courses never make money inside of 15 years.

It's useful money, but Rocliffe profits aren't the panacea that it's being hailed as on here.

Adi_Dem Posted on 29/08/2011 18:36
Relegation - the start of something special?

Gibson talked about revenue to the club and not the revenue of Rockcliffe. I'm only quoting directly from the horse's mouth. I have no idea what he bases his projections on but what he says is perfectly clear.

red_shamrock Posted on 29/08/2011 18:45
Relegation - the start of something special?

I cant see it making that much money, seems a bit of a white Elephant for me.
He wants to wait till things pick up and flog it.



joseph99 Posted on 29/08/2011 18:48
Relegation - the start of something special?

That has been lost somewhere because I genuinely don't understand the point you're making when you say "Another thing: had Southgate got MFC promoted in his first season in the Championship would we have seen Mowbray at all? Answer = highly unlikely."

My point is, if relegation was the start of something special, then this assertion omits the culmination of events that caused relegation and post relegation the monumental cock-ups during Southgate and the Scottish Experiment.

Hence the subject title should read: 'Calamity in the PL, relegation, The Pathetic Prolonged Southgate Project replaced by Strachan's Scottish Shocker - the start of something special!? That would be more accurate.

Adi_Dem Posted on 29/08/2011 18:55
Relegation - the start of something special?

So it's semantics then! The OP makes it very clear that there were many factors culminating in relegation and I have already said that mistakes were made since, the post is more about the principle than the details and relegation is as convenient a point as any.

That said, there is no doubt that relegation provoked the financial response, absolutely none.

If you want a discussion about what caused relegation or the mistakes that have been made since then fine but that's not what this thread was for.

robbso Posted on 29/08/2011 19:36
Relegation - the start of something special?

Platform at Peterborough station en route to Norwich last season. Gordon McQueen flatly stated the club is skint and could not afford the wages paid to certain footballers and one was Scotty Mac.
Enjoy the moment because the club is not in such a great state.

Gibbo got it horribly wrong appointing Southgate, then Strachan we all know that, you can"t turn back time.

I even understand Adi and his opening post,we got relegated, we failed to go back up and we are hopefuly plotting a recovery and if it works we can look back and be proud of the achievement.Good football, local manager and acadamy players looking good

However to get up and stay up the club will need to invest heavily or become a yoyo club. So to say it will be run differnetly to before is a bit bemusing. The premier league is the Holy grail for football clubs, values and connections with the fans have nothing to do with it. Football is a cut throat, ruthless business. Gibson i believe will do whatever it takes if and when we get promotion to stay there.

I know nothing of the clubs accounts apart from what an ex employee told me, nor do i know of the Golf courses ability to make money for the club. What i do think is that Gibbo is a shrewd and ruthless businessman and will do what is best for himself.

Adi_Dem Posted on 29/08/2011 19:40
Relegation - the start of something special?

Three main points in response:

1. If he was going to do what was best for him he'd have given up on Boro long ago.

2. Gordon McQueen will have known less than nothing about the financial state of the club.

3. Clubs can and have managed to stay up without betting the farm. I would be absolutely flabbergasted if, following promotion, it wasn't run differently.

heaton_mersey_boro Posted on 29/08/2011 19:44
Relegation - the start of something special?

Mogga said a few times last year that he was suprised at our wage bill being £20m? a season.

WBA got promotion on a fraction of that.

IF / when we go up we would be looking at the Stoke model of running the club - max. £30k / week and not being held to ransom by ANY player.

The days of chucking £50-60k / week on players-who-really-don't-give-a-shít are gone. And I am pleased they are. Probably mean a good season will be 12-14th in the PL but so be it.

joseph99 Posted on 29/08/2011 19:46
Relegation - the start of something special?

Adi, are you better connected than McQueen?

robbso Posted on 29/08/2011 19:46
Relegation - the start of something special?

Point 2, Gordon McQueen knew probably more than you.Not going to argue about that.

Why would he have given up long ago?you are guessing.

What clubs have stayed up, performed well and not overspent?Do you know their wage structures, bank balances?

I applaud your optimism, i really do. I just seem to think you are sugar coating the situation. We are were we are through bad management and decisions, i have seen nothing change apart from Mogga getting the best out of a very limited squad.

Adi_Dem Posted on 29/08/2011 19:47
Relegation - the start of something special?

Again Heaton, that's the point I was making. That will do me nicely. 12th - 14th with a Teesside chairman and manager and a team playing good football - something special.

Adi_Dem Posted on 29/08/2011 19:53
Relegation - the start of something special?

I'm not sure how it is sugar coating to suggest that Boro under this new financial reality with Mowbray in charge playing good football is something positive.

MCQueen was a scout for the club. Anyone that thinks he was privy to the finances of the club is simply wrong. I guarantee I know more than him simply by reading what is the public domain.

You said he was ruthless and would do what was best for him. That's just demonstrably not true when it comes to MFC.

I know why we are where we are. I've set out what have been some signficant changes at the club. we're now in a position to build from a solid foundation and hopefully having learned lessons. That's why I'm positive and I see no reason not to be.

joseph99 Posted on 29/08/2011 19:56
Relegation - the start of something special?

Do you think public domain information is always based on fact?

Adi_Dem Posted on 29/08/2011 19:56
Relegation - the start of something special?

When it comes in the form of filed accounts at Companies house, yes.

robbso Posted on 29/08/2011 20:05
Relegation - the start of something special?

So the chief scout knows nothing about the clubs finances, he just wanders about with no idea what his financial remit is?

You put your points across elequently, it doesn"t make you an oracle and right all the time though.

You have no idea what the club would do if they get promoted, that"s why i think your version is sugar coated.

Adi_Dem Posted on 29/08/2011 20:09
Relegation - the start of something special?

Yes, that's exactly right re: McQueen.

I don't claim to be an oracle, I'm simply giving you my honestly held views backed up with whatever evidence I can provide.

My view on what we will do if and when we get promoted is my view and it's been backed up by comments from both Mowbray and Gibson. That's why I believe we won't operate to the same financial model.

You think I'm sugar coating and that's fine, I just disagree that's all.

robbso Posted on 29/08/2011 20:17
Relegation - the start of something special?

That"s the point Adi,you have no evidence, you are like every other fan, hoping and guessing.

You dismissed what McQueen said as if you know better, i disagree. He mentioned the compo we would have to pay to Celtic before it became public knowledge the following Monday. He said Ince had no chance and Megson wasn"t even considered for the managers job, did he guess? He was fuming to be honest and having a proper rant about Strachan. We were surprised because footballers usually don"t publicly critisize each other.

Adi_Dem Posted on 29/08/2011 20:28
Relegation - the start of something special?

Nope, there is a mix. Anything I post about our finances is backed by evidence. I am neither hoping nor guessing.

You can disagree if you wish but I do know better. None of the things you mention relate to the finances of the club. I'm sure McQueen did and does pick things up from within the club. Gossip and chat just like every other job. However, he simply wouldn't be privy to the financial workings of the club. So unless he has thoroughly read and understood the clubs accounts, he doesn't know more than anyone else.

No one else was ever in the frame other than Mowbray and we didn't have to pay a bean to Celtic to get him.

robbso Posted on 29/08/2011 20:37
Relegation - the start of something special?

Reading the accounts and reading Gibsons mind are entirely different.You have no idea how Gibson would finance the club if we get back in the Premier league.

Mowbray was on gardening leave,Celtic wanted compo.If you know better you must work at the club.

Adi_Dem Posted on 29/08/2011 20:49
Relegation - the start of something special?

No they didn't and they weren't entitled to it either. They had terminated Mowbray's employment and weren't in a position to demand compensation.

Mowbray, himself, was due a significant sum that he gave up to join us if that's what you're referring to but that was well publicised.

I've already said that what I think we will do if and when we get promoted is just an opinion. However, both Mowbray and Gibson have said in interviews what their intentions are and I also think it stands to reason. I've never argued that it was anything other than an opinion.

PinkPonce Posted on 29/08/2011 20:50
Relegation - the start of something special?

'Mowbray was on gardening leave,Celtic wanted compo.If you know better you must work at the club'

Incorrect. Mowbray was owed a lot of money by Celtic, around half a million. And he eventually had to waive that to accept the Middlesbrough job. Celtic sacked him, so where due no compensation.

PP ... x

robbso Posted on 29/08/2011 21:26
Relegation - the start of something special?

That is where the confusion lies, i said exactly the same thing when McQueen mentioned it, he said he had not been sacked and was on gardening leave. If he got that wrong fair do"s.


PinkPonce Posted on 29/08/2011 21:30
Relegation - the start of something special?

Proof of how much McQueen knows?

PP ... x

Adi_Dem Posted on 29/08/2011 21:31
Relegation - the start of something special?

Yeah he got it wrong. No worries.

robbso Posted on 29/08/2011 21:31
Relegation - the start of something special?

If he got that wrong yes, maybe. Why he should make stuff up though is beyond me.

Adi_Dem Posted on 29/08/2011 21:50
Relegation - the start of something special?

He may not have done, he may have just been reporting what he had heard from within the club and genuinely believed it.

robbso Posted on 29/08/2011 21:55
Relegation - the start of something special?

It appears Celtic were still paying Mowbray a wage after they let him go.Boro and Celtic obviously with Mowbrays input thrashed a deal out.

Not to worry.He is still our manager.

joseph99 Posted on 29/08/2011 21:58
Relegation - the start of something special?

Not heard of creative accounting?

You think Gibson tells the full truth in the Companies House reports? Perhaps he does, but I very much doubt any Chairman or CEO tell the taxman 100% truth.

Adi_Dem Posted on 29/08/2011 22:12
Relegation - the start of something special?

It's not about truth or fiction, it's about being able to understand a set of accounts and I do. People seem to think that you can get away with murder in a set of accounts. You can't. They are audited and signed off by the directors and no doubt Barclays will also be entitled to copies. The stuff I've written in this thread isn't open to accounting creativity.

Robbso - no deal was done between Boro and Celtic. It wasn't necessary as Celtic had no legal right to compensation. It was between Mowbray and Celtic and Mowbray made the decision to give up £350,000 which he was due from them.

robbso Posted on 29/08/2011 22:16
Relegation - the start of something special?

Adi i have just read an article by sky sports,it said he was on gardening leave, he was being paid a salary, Boro, Celtic and Mowbray negotiated a deal where Mowbray wrote off the remaining one years salary he was owed to join us. Some would see that as Celtic getting compo. Mark Venus aswell apparantly.

,

Adi_Dem Posted on 29/08/2011 22:26
Relegation - the start of something special?

Some people would be wrong then! Most importantly though it wasn't paid by MFC.

George1507 Posted on 29/08/2011 22:29
Relegation - the start of something special?

Why would that be Celtic getting compensation?

Tony Mowbray joined MFC and therefore gave up his right to his last year (or however long) of payment by Celtic. That's not compensation, it was just Tony Mowbray on garden leave.

robbso Posted on 29/08/2011 22:33
Relegation - the start of something special?

It doesn"t matter really, Mowbray got the job, Boro got their man and Celtic saved something like 350 000 quid.

Everyone happy.

Edit, it"s me who is the thicko,just been told he said he was negotiating his pay off, not compo. My apologies.

Adi_Dem Posted on 29/08/2011 22:59
Relegation - the start of something special?

Don't be daft, no need for apologies. I agree - we got our man and that's all that matters really.

joseph99 Posted on 30/08/2011 07:04
Relegation - the start of something special?

As you claim to have accessed all filed accounts can you link or send the annual historical balance sheet from the PL days. Hopefully this will cover assets, liabilities and equity. Might be interesting.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 30/08/2011 07:23
Relegation - the start of something special?

seems like some people have forgotten what happened when we got relegated and the mistakes leading up to relegation.

The January before relegation we were desperate to sign players but we didnt, when we were relegated we were desperate to sign quality players but we didnt (apart from Coyne, Yeates, and Lita... about 500,000 spent on the lot).

We seemed to have a real lack of resources and then gibson sacked southgate and paid good money for an unproven manager at this level, a man who had never been through and got a team promoted before. He then sanctioned many costly signings... its those signings in recent times that have cost us, and mowbray was very vocal about how much Boyd was costing us and holding us back.

so its not as simple as proclaiming 'Relegation - the start of something special'. If after SMAC had left we had got a decent, experienced manager in like Mowbray maybe we wouldnt be in this mess now.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 30/08/2011 07:31
Relegation - the start of something special?

'Mowbray is still on 'gardening leave' from Celtic and an agreement would have to be reached between them and Boro'

skysports - see link



Link: http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11095_64679

Adi_Dem Posted on 30/08/2011 08:06
Relegation - the start of something special?

Raz, your first post misses the point of the thread completely. The sky sports story is wrong.

Joseph99 - no I can't. They're on PDF and I have no idea how to link them. In any event, they cost a quid each from Companies House. Just go to the site and you can buy any filed documents you like.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 30/08/2011 08:09
Relegation - the start of something special?

no it doesnt as your point is that our relegation should be remembered as some kind of turning point and it wasnt.

The turning point was putting a proper experienced manager in charge.

also the sky link i used because it seemed more official but several local scottish news sites all had the same detail.

so i guess in this instance you are plain wrong.

rufus4 Posted on 30/08/2011 08:11
Relegation - the start of something special?

Adi.I thought your first post was excellent and spot on.As a seaon ticket holder for over 25 years and a fan before then I have seen good times and bad times.It now seem like we have turned a corner.Lets hope so.[^]

UAUA Posted on 30/08/2011 08:12
Relegation - the start of something special?

This thread should officially be stopped now as it looks like developing into yet another tediathon between Adi and his nonsensical stalker.

Adi_Dem Posted on 30/08/2011 08:15
Relegation - the start of something special?

Sorry Raz but just because it's in the papers doesn't make it right. Those articles were written early in our pursuit of Mowbray and contained no quotes. Read the accounts after we had appointed him for the correct version of events.

Equally, even without those reports legally Celtic had no right to compensation and therefore there was no deal to be done between Boro and Celtic. I'm sure Boro got involved to help the negotiations between Mowbray and Celtic but that's it.

You've just demonstrated at you did miss the point. Relegation is a convenient point to use. If you wanted to use the appointment of Southgate as the point at which we started in this journey then I have no problem with that. The points I made in the OP are just as valid, whichever point in time you use and that is the main thrust of the post, not the exact point in time that the turning point was, that's a separate point.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 30/08/2011 08:21
Relegation - the start of something special?

when has such a turning point happened?

I simply stated that relegation was clearly not a turning point for the club as we continuted to make big errors that have continued to cost the club.

A handful of games into the season i would not call this a turning point as yet. we have just spent the summer selling off more players.

Do you class our relegation as a turning point or mowbray signing as a turning point?


Adi_Dem Posted on 30/08/2011 08:25
Relegation - the start of something special?

That's the point, the thread isn't about when the turning point is or was. I've simply asked whether we will look back and think that although it was a painful and difficult time to be a fan, the resultant changes allowed us to rebuild and allowed Mogga to create something special. Exactly when and how those changes came about isn't relevant.

UAUA is right. I will leave it there Raz. The answers you seek are in the thread, just read it.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 30/08/2011 08:29
Relegation - the start of something special?

agreed lets stop such a spat [^]

we havent as yet acheived such a turning point.

and the relegation and subsequent mess has only held back mowbray from doing the job he wants to do rather than help him.

If we do get promoted under mowbray the turning point will be seen as being his appointment and not the mess that happened before hand.

Robsons promotion will never be credited to lennies 12th place finish and the mess of a team he left robson with.

MFC_Riverside Posted on 30/08/2011 08:34
Relegation - the start of something special?

Raz, this is also my last input on this thread but can I answer a few of your above points.

"we havent as yet acheived such a turning point."

Noone is saying we have, but if Mowbray continues the form we have now, we get promoted with him and do well in the Premiership ( let's just say we will, that's another thread altogether ) then that will have been special. As Adi said, it's in HISTORICAL context, ie over a period of time.

"and the relegation and subsequent mess has only held back mowbray from doing the job he wants to do rather than help him."

Again, you make a good point to be fair, and I agree with it. But that's what will make it more special if he can pull it off. Wage bill halved, squad of locals and free signings ( Mowbray's signings ofcourse ).

"If we do get promoted under mowbray the turning point will be seen as being his appointment and not the mess that happened before hand."

Again, you're right but noone is saying it's the turning point, it was merely the catalyst, two different things.

"Robsons promotion will never be credited to lennies 12th place finish and the mess of a team he left robson with."

Again, you're right but when I look back on that time I give even more credit to Robson ( in his early years as Boro boss ) the same way more credit would be going to Mowbray.

[^]

Adi_Dem Posted on 30/08/2011 08:42
Relegation - the start of something special?

One final point Raz - you're confusing me seeking to 'credit' future success to our relegation with me seeking to suggest that maybe a series of events were the catalyst for change. It's not just about getting promoted. What I'm saying is that the wholesale changes that seem to have refocussed the club and maybe forced a strategic rethink along with the appointment of Mowbray and his development of the club came about because of our struggle. Wat I'm saying is that maybe when we look back in future years we will look at it differently.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 30/08/2011 08:42
Relegation - the start of something special?

agree with some of those points, i just dont think relegation will be seen as the first step to something special thats all.

in the same way lennies relegation from the premier league has never been credited with robsons success.

The first step was, i hope, Mowbray... Whether he needed Lita off because he was a big wage like some say only highlights the short term risks we continued to take after relegation.

i think the title 'Mowbray - the start of something special?' would have made more sense

MFC_Riverside Posted on 30/08/2011 08:45
Relegation - the start of something special?

Maybe Raz. That's a fair point and I would agree with. I think it depends on where you think Mowbrays appointment and the club's restructuring stems from. IMHO, ofcourse, this was relegation.

I think we agree with the main points and it's getting quite petty and nit-picking now. I'll leave it here.

Adi_Dem Posted on 30/08/2011 08:48
Relegation - the start of something special?

Not in the context of the OP it wouldn't because it's not just the changes that Mowbray has brought about that I'm talking about, it's the changes in the club from top to bottom.

Relegation has forced the club to rethink financially and trim all the excess fat, it's forcing us to rely on our youngsters and try and develop talent, it's forcing us to implement proper scouting and it's all being built on Teesside foundations. It's wider than just saying Mowbray coming in and doing s good job is the turning point.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 30/08/2011 08:49
Relegation - the start of something special?

of course i disagree on the fact that it stems from relegation because as i have highlighted above we continued to make financial mistakes, bringing players like Boyd in on huge wages in the hope of promotion, having to sell lita because of his high wage when we had signed him after relegation.

This all highlights the fact that we may have restructured after relegation but financially at some level it continued to cost us and we continued to make mistakes.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 30/08/2011 08:56
Relegation - the start of something special?

adi so why after relegation did we bring a load of players on high wages from scotland and elsewhere in if relegation forced us to restructure and rely on youngsters?

i would suggest that strachans and southgates failings after relegation along with gibsons mistakes contributed in a rethink. Because after relegation it looked like gibson made the mistake of leaving it too long to do what he wanted to do, which was sack southgate and start a fresh. He then allowed Strachan (unproven at this level) to spend cash on a number of players, some on high wages for a quick return to the premier league. That didnt work. So Mowbray comes in and we are restructuring again and Mowbray has spent less than any manager under Gibson and yet we seem to be doing ok.

Adi_Dem Posted on 30/08/2011 09:03
Relegation - the start of something special?

The Scottish players weren't on high wages with only 2 exceptions but even they weren't at the levels we had seen before. The major cuts occurred immediately after relegation.

We continued to receive parachute payments which meant we could afford those salaries and to sign players last summer.

After two years without promotion we had to cut further.

All of that said, you're getting too hung up on exactly when it happened and what the causes were. It's more about the way we look back at the period as a whole in years to come. That's the point of the OP.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 30/08/2011 09:10
Relegation - the start of something special?

adi i agree, and i think it will be looked back in the same way lennies relegation and then struggle is and then robsons early days.

the mess up that happened from relegation and after, until mowbray, will, i hope be seen separately to any success mowbray has.

If gibson had bit the bullet and sacked southgate after relegation and brought an experienced manager in and gave him the money strachan was given then maybe we could have turned things around and said that relegation was a blessing in disguise, just like looking back the relegation under robson was, because with merson and co we came back stronger and stayed in the premier league after that for many many years.