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Moggas_Mules Posted on 25/08/2011 00:31
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

I don't think the Premier League will want us to get promoted this season.

Were won't be a fairytale promotion like Swansea, Norwich or Blackpool or the press' favourite team like QPR or Newcastle.

We won't get above the average gate of 26/27k a season and we won't spend big.

BUT FCUK EM I SAY, WHERE THE BORO AND WERE GOING UP !!!!!!! [^]

vuvuzelas Posted on 25/08/2011 00:32
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

The FA want West Ham up and thats all they care about.

sasboro1 Posted on 25/08/2011 07:01
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

Think you are paranoid.

The PL arent bothered about us just like the rest of the clubs outside the prem. We are just an average sized club. They probably dont even notice us. Why would they be bothered about us

bevoboro Posted on 25/08/2011 07:13
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

We are not a popular club with the fans of other PL clubs [sad]

I have read stuff on another forum I use about how we didn't deserve our PL status due to our poor attendances.

sasboro1 Posted on 25/08/2011 07:18
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

I dont think fans of premierleague clubs really care about us one way or the other. Just like any club outside the top flight. Most probably dont even look at the championship results. Bit like us looking down at league one. We arent a special case

Cleveleyssmoggie Posted on 25/08/2011 07:26
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

The hardcore Man U fans don't like us, as a consequence of penalising their persistent standing.

FrozenHorse Posted on 25/08/2011 07:28
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

"we didn't deserve our PL status due to our poor attendances"

That's just ignorance on their part though. Even at our lowest average (26k or so) there were always 6 or 7 clubs with lower attendances.

I don't think the Premier League care if we're in it or not.

bevoboro Posted on 25/08/2011 07:41
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

I totally agree FH, they were no doubt influenced by the witchhunt we were subjected to by the media about our falling attendances.

Hopefully the turnaround we have had so far under Mowbray will show the club in a more positive light.

UAUA Posted on 25/08/2011 07:56
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

Its more likely to prove their point that our fans are apathetic and even when the football is good they dont turn up in numbers.

jambo239 Posted on 25/08/2011 08:00
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

Our "poor" attendances in the PL were a bit of a myth. I live in the north west and therefore have lots of ManU, Liverpool, Everton etc fans that are friends and they used to comment on our poor attendances quite regularly; I would retort this by telling them the attendance figures and comparing us to the likes of Wigan, Bolton, Blackburn..... the list goes on.

In fact our attendances were decidedly average for the PL but high for the size of our catchment.

The thing that lets us down is the fact that the TV cameras sit in the West Stand and look across onto the East stand and behind the goals. This looks terrible as the south stand is often completely empty so any highlights show our empty seats etc.

I think the stadium was probably made too big for us. When the Riverside was built (without the corners) we were relatively full most weeks and our relative success spurred the club on to fill the corners with seats. Once the novelty of PL football wore off to new comers at Middlesbrough, attendances naturally dropped off like they would at any club. However, now we are stuck with a 35,000 seater stadium that we have no hope of filling for at least the next 5-10 years and possibly ever. All of this for 2-3yrs of good attendances.

As for us being unfashoinable... explain to me what is fashionable about Norwich, Bolton, Wigan, Wolves, Stoke and West Brom. All small-medium sized clubs that get very similar or lower attendances than us.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 25/08/2011 08:01
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

but we will be a fairytale, when mowbray took over we were a wreck of a club near relegation to league 1. To turn the club around in such a short space of time with very little money would be remarkable... however it is early days.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 25/08/2011 08:07
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

'In fact our attendances were decidedly average for the PL but high for the size of our catchment.'

has nothing to do with our catchment... if the attendances were on average 22k and that was average for our catchment thats still not good enough when you have a 35k stadium.

jambo239 Posted on 25/08/2011 08:13
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

We could build a 50,000 seater stadium.

Thats not going to improve attendances is it?

The fact is.... Teesside is not a massive area and northern towns like Billingham and Hartlepool have a lot of Sunlun supporters.

26k is probably about right if you compare us to other towns of similar size and their attendances. When we were getting 30k+ we were doing VERY well.

100Rod100 Posted on 25/08/2011 08:14
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

"Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted"

ffs [rle]

bryan_munich Posted on 25/08/2011 08:20
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

I would retort this by telling them the attendance figures and comparing us to the likes of Wigan, Bolton, Blackburn..... the list goes on.
____________
With a catchment of 500,000, we're potentially much bigger than and therefore incomparable to all those clubs.

Lisbonlegend Posted on 25/08/2011 08:20
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

What a terrible thread.[^][:D]

MFC_Riverside Posted on 25/08/2011 09:13
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

Raz, if we had a 200,000 seater stadium and had attendances of 100,000 would you still say that's a poor attendance?

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 25/08/2011 09:14
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

no i would say gibsons a nobhead for funding a 200,000 stadium.

maybe he is a nobhead for funding a 35,000 stadium as well, i'm not sure how regularly we have filled the stadium to capacity to comment.

Midosparmo Posted on 25/08/2011 09:15
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

"The FA want West Ham up and thats all they care about. "

Exactly. The rest are just to make up numbers as far as the FA care.


MFC_Riverside Posted on 25/08/2011 09:21
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

What about if he built a 20,000 seater stadium and you couldn't get a ticket for 7 year? Would he have done the right thing?

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 25/08/2011 09:24
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

you mean rather than built a stadium that never fills up have a stadium that is always full?

if 20k is too small a capacity then probably a bigger stadium would be needed, again i dont know if we get more than 20k on a regular basis. But considering the stadium capacity is 35k should that be the concern?

Boromart Posted on 25/08/2011 09:26
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

We historically the 17th best supported club in the country so I would suspect they would rather we were a prem side than a team like Wigan.

residentofnorthleeds Posted on 25/08/2011 09:30
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

I dont think the PL or Sky care which clubs are in the Premier as long as someone makes up the numbers and provides whipping boys for the big 4, or 6 if you include tottingham and Man City

mwelolo Posted on 25/08/2011 09:31
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

All this chip on the shoulder nobody likes us crap really is embarassing but it never seems to go away.

Midosparmo Posted on 25/08/2011 09:31
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

The FA like a few little clubs in to give the pretence that every club has a chance to be in the Premier. Its good for Pr.
Someone like the Boro is "so what?" outside of Boro fans.

EpiphanyProudfoot Posted on 25/08/2011 09:31
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

Kevin Keegan once famously said he would 'rather go shopping with the wife' than play at Middlesbrough.

The club incurred a lot of jealousy during the mid 90s and this kind of attention invariably leads to people wanting to see you fall, especially when teams like the Hammers, Wimbledon and Fulham did not have the financial muscle as Boro.

Add Des Lynams idiotic comments, the 3 point docking, Emmerson going awol, Merson, some bad signings etc and the Boro become a target of ridicule.

When we played Leicester in 97 everyone seemed to be rooting for them as they were assembled on a shoestring budget, same as when we played Chesterfield, also the Hammers in the 16 semi.

It is just the way it is. The press are a bit West Ham crazy at the moment.

sasboro1 Posted on 25/08/2011 09:35
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

"All this chip on the shoulder nobody likes us crap really is embarassing but it never seems to go away."

its paranoia. fact is fans and teams in the prem dont care either way. we are just another ipswich, coventry, derby, reading, leicester to them. its not like we are a massive sleeping giant. t

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 25/08/2011 09:35
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

to be fair people rooted for Chesterfield because they had gone on an amaxing run and were only a game away from the final which was remarkable for a lower division team. And they did perform well the first time around against us.

Humpty Posted on 25/08/2011 09:37
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

"With a catchment of 500,000, we're potentially much bigger than and therefore incomparable to all those clubs."

where have you pulled that figure from?

[:D][:D]

grantus Posted on 25/08/2011 09:38
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

Boro are a well supported club for the size of the town - the is a fact.

Who gives a toss what others think and say - they can shove their opinions where the sun dont shine.

The one thing that irks me is the constant slagging off of our own (club, supporters, players, attendance, food, you name it) by some people that call themselves supporters of the club.

That is a lot more depressing than a few empty seats.

sasboro1 Posted on 25/08/2011 09:38
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

ofcourse people wanted chesterfield to win. people like to see the underdogs win in cup games

MFC_Riverside Posted on 25/08/2011 09:39
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

Raz, you didn't answer the question as always...

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 25/08/2011 09:43
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

i did answer it in the fairest way i could. if 20k is too small then of course it should be bigger. I have never suggested that a 20k stadium should have been built, however i have pointed out that the season Robson took over we could not fill that stadium for every game, so 35k for certainly a risk that has costed the club.

if we are not filling 35k then clearly he took too big a risk.

MFC_Riverside Posted on 25/08/2011 09:47
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

In what way was it a risk? And, as I said, you would still not be happy if he built a stadium that was 20k and you couldn't get a ticket for 7 year.

Maybe we should have left it at 30k but the years we got over 30k it was worth it.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 25/08/2011 09:54
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

maybe we should decrease back to 30k, thats well pointed out [^]

Midosparmo Posted on 25/08/2011 09:55
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

There would be a better atmosphere if the corners were mothballed and fans pushed together more.

sasboro1 Posted on 25/08/2011 09:55
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

club should close some of the upper tiers so the ground feels fuller. but too many people would complain

MFC_Riverside Posted on 25/08/2011 09:56
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

Areed. But in what way was it a risk?

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 25/08/2011 09:57
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

like i said it was a risk when we werent even filling ayresome on a regular period at a point you expected us to do so (Robbos Army) to build a much larger capacity stadium.

MawTheMerrier Posted on 25/08/2011 10:26
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

16th in the all time attendances league last time i looked.

...and I dont give a shiney shoite whether we are 'fashionable' or not. I go to watch Boro - my local team.

borolad259 Posted on 25/08/2011 10:29
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

I've just battered a load of haddock for you to have with those chips.

MFC_Riverside Posted on 25/08/2011 10:29
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

Raz, what were we risking? What did we risk by building a 35k seater stadium?

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 25/08/2011 10:30
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

Cost ... for a kick off [;)]

Adi_Dem Posted on 25/08/2011 10:32
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

No risk whatsoever and one of the best decisions we made. Robson built his revolution on his name and the plans the club had which included the stadium.

Moggas_Mules Posted on 25/08/2011 10:32
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

Lisbon "What a terrible thread"

[:D]

MFC_Riverside Posted on 25/08/2011 10:32
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

The cost wouldn't have been hugely different from a smaller stadium and will have been paid off during the years we got over 25k so it's a mute problem.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 25/08/2011 10:35
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

maintenance cost etc running costs

Adi_Dem Posted on 25/08/2011 10:35
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

I think it cost £16m. Nothing in the scheme of things. Ridiculous to suggest it was a big risk to take. Just a key part of the plan.

Midosparmo Posted on 25/08/2011 10:35
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

To be fair every time we got over 28,000 then the corners earned some money and we did have a lot of years of doing that.

MFC_Riverside Posted on 25/08/2011 10:37
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

[rle]

That's to Raz by the way. The two posts above are right. [^]

barrelchestedscotsman Posted on 25/08/2011 10:37
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

If we have 20k in a 35k stadium, or 20k in a 30k stadium its still 20k !! Risk [?]

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 25/08/2011 10:39
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

you think the extra capacity has no running costs equated to it?

Moggas_Mules Posted on 25/08/2011 10:41
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

Raz is right.

I only say that based on Elland Road last season. They reduced the capacity to reduce costs if i remember rightly.

We should take seats away and bang a couple of screens in [^]

xxlshirts_fit_all Posted on 25/08/2011 10:43
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

salt and vinegar with your chips sir?[rle]

MawTheMerrier Posted on 25/08/2011 10:45
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

Screens? Flashing ones full of adverts? No thanks.

Midosparmo Posted on 25/08/2011 10:45
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

Raz is right in the fact that by opening up all the ground it creates extra costs these days.
Parts could and should be mothballed to save money and push the fans closer together.

Supermac Posted on 25/08/2011 10:46
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

what a sh1te thread, get those chips of your shoulders

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 25/08/2011 10:51
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

1993/94 - 10,400 - Division 1
1994/95 - 18,641 - Division 1

average attendances last two seasons at ayresome.

so having an 18k average and moving to a 30k stadiun was a risk, even if that was just atmospheric... but cost would have been a big risk and still is. its silly to think otherwise

barrelchestedscotsman Posted on 25/08/2011 10:52
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

"Build it.....and they will come"

MFC_Riverside Posted on 25/08/2011 10:52
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

I agree to shut part of it down etc. But building it in the first place wasn't a risk.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 25/08/2011 10:55
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

why wasnt it a risk? the atmosphere of ayresome is lost when you only have a half full stadium, thats a risk. the cost of a smaller stadium would have been even cheaper, and still moth balled areas need a certain level of up keep which has a cost.

Midosparmo Posted on 25/08/2011 10:56
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

"I agree to shut part of it down etc. But building it in the first place wasn't a risk. "

That sums it up. The corners made money every time we had over 28000 and that was all the Smac years and a few robbo seasons and the post Eindhoven season too?


MFC_Riverside Posted on 25/08/2011 10:57
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

Ok Raz. [^]

Midosparmo. Exactly, Raz doesn't understand they are two different points.

Moggas_Mules Posted on 25/08/2011 10:57
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

On reflection the stadium was always too big.

We should never have built one above 25k. Yes we had years of attendances over that figure but still.

If you look at Brighton, they could probably get more fans had their new stadium been bigger but they chose to build a reasonably sized stadium for their club which is what we should have done.

In other words the Riverside much like our wage bill wasn't very sustainable !!!

MFC_Riverside Posted on 25/08/2011 11:00
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

Then you would have moaned when you couldn't get a ticket for the 12 year we averaged above that after the Riverside was built. Gibson got it right at the time.

sasboro1 Posted on 25/08/2011 11:01
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

imagine the complaints on ehre if we had built 25k stadium and 10,000 couldnt get it. complaints of lack of ambition. we did what was right at the time

Moggas_Mules Posted on 25/08/2011 11:01
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

In that case we should have built a stadium that could be taken apart like the new olympic stadium [^]

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 25/08/2011 11:05
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

it was a risk going from average attendance 18k to trying to fill 30k.

clearly it showed ambition, but thats backfired, and the longer we are out of the top division the longer it will back fire.

Midosparmo Posted on 25/08/2011 11:06
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

"In that case we should have built a stadium that could be taken apart like the new olympic stadium"

Just close parts and they can be reopened if we got promotion.

We wouldnt average 28,000 if we got up, but odd games certanly would go above that.


MFC_Riverside Posted on 25/08/2011 11:07
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

No risk about it Raz.

Moggas_Mules Posted on 25/08/2011 11:09
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

Closing parts doesnt erase the atmosphere problem though in my opinion or the fact you'll see red seats everywhere.

But if we were to close it, id elect to close the West Upper apart from the corporate seats and commentary.

Move them all into the east. [^]

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 25/08/2011 11:10
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

you think running a 35k stadium for a crowd of around 18k (what we are getting at the moment) is fine and manageable long term?

if you do think that then you arent any good at business

kernaghanscodpiece Posted on 25/08/2011 11:19
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

"Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted"

What an embarrassing statement. Stop taking dugs mate, the paranoia may start to subside. [^]

MFC_Riverside Posted on 25/08/2011 11:19
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

"is fine and manageable long term?"

The Riverside has been built 17 years ( inlcuding this year ) and it's only been an average of 18k or below twice.

Yep, that's very long term.


Razmond_HWDR Posted on 25/08/2011 11:21
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

ffs long term as in if we stay out side the premier league any longer, that average attendance has been since we dropped out of the top flight.

was that long ago we were in the relegation zone.


MFC_Riverside Posted on 25/08/2011 11:23
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

"if we stay out side the premier league any longer"

So gibson has got it right up to now, you agree?

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 25/08/2011 11:25
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

no. its clear you dont understand the question.

you think a 35k stadium thats only being half filled is affordable.

MFC_Riverside Posted on 25/08/2011 11:26
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

But it's only been half filled for 2/16 seasons. So yes it's been affordable.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 25/08/2011 11:29
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

do you really think that when it isnt half full that pays for when it is half full?


MFC_Riverside Posted on 25/08/2011 11:34
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

The previous 14 seasons when it's been above 25k will have easily paid for the two seasons it's been below.

25,000 x 200 = 5,000,000

5,000,000 x 14 = 70,000,000

That's at least £70m from the 14 seasons we averaged above 25k.

That's using the lowest values so I'd say over the 16 years been open having 35k seats has been beneficial to us and Gibson has been proved right.

Well done Gibbo. [^]

Midosparmo Posted on 25/08/2011 11:37
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

Dodgy workings there.

Its been beneficial at times when we have had over 28,000 which was the original capicity.

So a low guess would be 3000 extra for 14 seasons at £250 is 10 million plus extra income

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 25/08/2011 11:40
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

if only it worked like that, we wouldnt be in any debt at all and the stadium would just look after itself with no real costs attributed to it.


MFC_Riverside Posted on 25/08/2011 11:40
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

He was arguing half full. I done them workings based on that the overall stadium revenue has been a minimum of £70m over 14 seasons. That is easily enough to have paid for the stadium to be built and to run the stadium for 16 years.

Adi_Dem Posted on 25/08/2011 11:41
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

So it was a risk because 16 years later we can't fill it? Utter gibberish.

The cost of running the stadium is dwarfed by the clubs other costs and there aren't significant savings to be made by shutting part of it down. In fact, if you shut the West Upper you're losing the most expensive seats and where there are plenty of tickets sold.

Taking Raz's attitude to it's logical conclusion we wouldn't buy any players, spend any money or do anything.

The facts are that it cost a modest sum, paid for itself and been close to capacity in most seasons since it was built. Yes, we are at a low ebb at present and it hasn't been full for a few seasons but that doesn't mean it won't be again. In addition, the stadium has been a key selling point for the club when signing players.

I tell you what, I'm glad we had that capacity for the UEFA cup comebacks or the Liverpool semi final and any number of other games we have played there.

MFC_Riverside Posted on 25/08/2011 11:42
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

Adi, well said.[^]

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 25/08/2011 11:44
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

'So it was a risk because 16 years later we can't fill it? Utter gibberish.'

no its because we are no longer a premiership team.

Like you said yourself those cup runs in europe etc wouldnt last forever. You have been proved correct, however having a premier league stadium affected the club ever since.

Midosparmo Posted on 25/08/2011 11:46
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

If there was a 20,000 stadium now it wouldnt create extra demand or panic to get seats. We would still be getting 18,000.
If any more wanted to or could afford to come they would.

A smaller stadium would probably have meant bigger ticket prices in the past and we would have probably ended up losing more supporters then we have now.

Adi_Dem Posted on 25/08/2011 11:48
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

As I said your point doesn't make sense. Building the stadium 16 years ago was a risk because we are no longer in the Premier League? It's just nonsensical. And it isn't causing us any financial problems whatsoever. We don't lose money hosting our home games so where is the problem exactly?

MFC_Riverside Posted on 25/08/2011 11:49
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

Raz [V].

Adi [^].

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 25/08/2011 11:51
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

adi sometimes by just saying we dont lose money thats doesnt mean it is true.

i said the risk was at the time, with the long term foresight being if we got relegated could we maintain the running costs of the stadium. That must have been a consideration a the time as we had been a bit of a yo yo club.

MFC_Riverside Posted on 25/08/2011 11:52
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

Right, We should have built a 5,000 seater stadium. In the next 50 years ( long term ) we will be relegated to the conference and it will cost us money if we have a stadium that's too big. [:D][:D][^]

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 25/08/2011 11:55
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

how very unrealistic of you. We were not an established premier ship team when the stadium was built ffs

MFC_Riverside Posted on 25/08/2011 11:57
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

No, but Gibson knew we would be and planned for it. [^]

Adi_Dem Posted on 25/08/2011 11:59
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

Except that it is true and demonstrably so.

We've managed to "maintain the running costs" without difficulty ever since it was opened so again I don't see the point you're making. There is absolutely no evidence and nor has there ever been that we couldn't afford the running costs.

In addition, given the state of Ayresome Park and it's size I wonder how different the running, maintenance and repair costs actually would have been.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 25/08/2011 12:00
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

we were established as soon after we were relegated, and then relegated again a couple of seasons ago.

you just need to how some knowledge of boros recent history

Jonny_Rondos_Disco_pants Posted on 25/08/2011 12:00
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

We agreed to build the Riverside when Lennie was in charge. We appointed Robbo as the man to build a team to fill it by getting promoted. The club will have done the sums back then as if Wolves pipped us in 94/95 we could have been stuck in the Endsleigh league with a new 30k stadium.

The ground was mostly grants anyway. Someone posted the breakdown on here not so long back.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 25/08/2011 12:04
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

we have been in an unmanageable debt now for a number of years, only by selling our first team and young academy players off have we got any sort of balance back.

you consider the riverside to not be any part financial constraints because you need proof first to say so, but without proof you can say the stadium has never ran at a loss.

i disagree

Moggas_Mules Posted on 25/08/2011 12:05
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

Put it this way, we dont look as silly as Darlo !!!

Adi_Dem Posted on 25/08/2011 12:09
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

No we haven't Raz. The debt has been very manageable and managed. The real problem post relegation was the wage bill which has now been corrected.

The cost of opening the stadium is met by linters through the door. The only time that hasn't been the case was in certain UEFA Cup games that attracted sub-10000 crowds.

Just take a look at the accounts.

Sorry Raz, I know I keep doing this, but the point you are making, ie that current crowds prove it was a risk to build the new stadium is nonsense.

Also, you haven't addressed the point I made above. Ayresome Park had running costs too and I would wager that because of the state it was in and how old it was they weren't a million miles from the running and maintenance costs of the Riverside.


Razmond_HWDR Posted on 25/08/2011 12:12
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

Adam Johnson and Cattermole wages were too high?

are you being serious?

Lita's wages were too high? we'd only signed him just over a year ago.

Adi_Dem Posted on 25/08/2011 12:13
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

So you're now arguing that wages weren't a problem?

plazmuh Posted on 25/08/2011 12:14
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

Regarding the stadium..
The mistake Gibson made was farming it out to the Germans to build..
It should have been erected by TEESSIDE people with Cargo Fleet Steel..
Regards
Plazmuh
[:D][:D][^]

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 25/08/2011 12:15
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

no i agree that wages were but that we also needed cash from transfer fees to get the debt down.

i highlighted those as examples of where we sold to raise cash from transfer fees not just get the wage down. If Litas wages were too high then why the feck did gibson agree to them a year earlier?

Moggas_Mules Posted on 25/08/2011 12:18
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

Takes off helmet and holds bat up to crowd, second ton of the week [:D]

I thank you

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 25/08/2011 12:20
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

well done Moggas_Mules [:D]

Adi_Dem Posted on 25/08/2011 12:22
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

Raz, you're not making sense.

We sold Cattermole for £3.5m and replaced him with Digard at £4m.

Johnson wanted to leave and was in the last year of his contract.

Lira's wages weren't a problem in the first season post relegation. They became a problem when we weren't promoted.

We don't need to raise transfer fees, we needed to lower our wage spend. That's confirmed in the accounts and by both Gibson and Mowbray.

Sorry but you've gone off on a tangent again.

MFC_Riverside Posted on 25/08/2011 12:26
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

Adi, just forget it. He's either a wind up merchant or stupid. A bit of both probably.

You're right though.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 25/08/2011 12:30
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

i apologies adi, i totally disagree with you on that tangent regarding wage and for example litas wage, it is bad management to sign a player who wasnt with a club and infact i think it was norwich he was at in league 1 or something and he wasnt that fantastic for them, and offer him permiership wages under the presumption that we'd be back in the premiership after 1 season, with no get out clause in for that.

You have to admit if that was the case it was bad financial management.

The cost of the stadium when the crowds have been low will have added to the debt, and that has been managed badly.


Adi_Dem Posted on 25/08/2011 12:32
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

As I've pointed out Raz, you're just wrong. Let's leave it at that.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 25/08/2011 12:36
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

ok but like i have stated just above you have pointed it out by i hope more lies.

if we offered a free agent like Lita premiership wages when he had been average at best the season before in League 1, then that was bad financial management.

I hope you have made that up and we didnt offer him a wage we now a year on could no longer afford.

I thought with lita it was a player we signed on a free who did ok for us and 1.75million was a very good price. We have signed a couple of players since adding to the wage and hope to bring a striker in again adding to the wage.

wishfulthinking Posted on 25/08/2011 13:19
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

Raz - how large a stadium capacity would not have been a risk do you think?

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 25/08/2011 13:38
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

if only it was that simple, we should have had 3 specs for the stadium, one for if we get into europe, one if we are just in the premier league, and one if we end up in the championship.

it just takes a bit of planning.

Midosparmo Posted on 25/08/2011 13:41
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

"if only it was that simple, we should have had 3 specs for the stadium, one for if we get into europe, one if we are just in the premier league, and one if we end up in the championship.

it just takes a bit of planning."


We did all three [:o)]

A crystal ball may have helped?

Benny_Blanco Posted on 25/08/2011 13:42
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

If we do get promoted this season (and hopefully we will)

Gibson will be made to look rather foolish come this time next season.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 25/08/2011 13:46
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

he hasnt funded a promotion push, the money spent suggests consolidation this season. That means this stadium may cost us even more.

bringing the capacity down to 25k would be sensible whilst we are in the championship

MFC_Riverside Posted on 25/08/2011 13:48
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

"That means this stadium may cost us even more."

What are you on about? [:D][:D][^]

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 25/08/2011 13:51
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

sustaining a 35k stadium when it is only half full week in week out costs money.

that is what i am on about? Mind that was explained earlier in this thread.

Midosparmo Posted on 25/08/2011 13:51
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

The size of the stadium would still have been fine if Gibbo appointed a decent manager instead of Southgate.

The trouble with planning in football is relegation changes everything. There is no perfect answer.

MFC_Riverside Posted on 25/08/2011 13:52
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

Talk about round in circles.

[^][:D]

Adi_Dem Posted on 25/08/2011 13:55
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

Raz do you even know what you're on about here?

I've not made anything up and you once again simply don't seem to be able to grasp the basic points being made and therefore it is futile to even try and debate with you.

What you say simply doesn't make sense and is plainly wrong.

That latest one about us having 3 specs of stadium is an absolute belter. Just think that one through. Please.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 25/08/2011 13:57
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

Midosparmo we were planning the riverside stadium when we where in Division 1.

Why are you saying we could not have predicted relegation?

The ambition of the club was that it would get promoted under robson first time and then develop into an establish premier league club. I agree that relegation was not considered, but it should have been

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 25/08/2011 14:00
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

adi ok, so what you said about Lita being on premiership wages was true?

we signed him on a free after an average loan spell at league 1 norwich and after reading didnt want him and we gave him premiership wages which we could only afford 1 season?

MFC_Riverside Posted on 25/08/2011 14:02
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

So because we couldn't fill our stadium for 6 out of 14 seasons we should have made it smaller and had many people missing out on the games and £millions lost in revenue?

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 25/08/2011 14:05
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

no people talk about the possibility of moth balling certain parts of the stadium now.

I'm suggesting that should have triggered into place as soon as we got relegated to keep the cost down.

Adi_Dem Posted on 25/08/2011 14:07
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

And that proves it was a risky strategy!! Brilliant stuff.

Raz I didn't mention 'Premier League wages' once. Not once.

And Lita played for Norwich in the Championship.

Aand no matter what you say, the clubs goal was to reduce wage spend. End of story.

Midosparmo Posted on 25/08/2011 14:07
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

Now Raz talks sense.

MFC_Riverside Posted on 25/08/2011 14:10
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

Agreed, we should have thought about it. I suspect Gibson has and the savings are minimal/non-existant so we decided against it to give anyone the chance of sitting anywhere. Also to keep people happy by not focing them to move.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 25/08/2011 14:14
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

'Lira's wages weren't a problem in the first season post relegation. They became a problem when we weren't promoted.'

that suggested the wages we signed Lita on were not championship level wages but higher.

sorry he was part of the norwich side that got relegated from the championship. He helped relegate them to league 1.

so they reduced the wage spend with Lita's sale, and the bring in Haroun and Arca (anyone else?) and are now looking to sign a striker.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 25/08/2011 14:16
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

Adi what was Lita's weekly wage?

wishfulthinking Posted on 25/08/2011 14:16
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

Raz - To be able to have three configurations for Championship, Premiership and Europe I am assuming you mean that we should be able to mothball certain areas of the stadium to give as a 25K, 30K or 35K capacity depending on expected attendences and current demand?

Adi_Dem Posted on 25/08/2011 14:22
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

Now you're getting it Raz. The salaries paid to Arcs and Haroun fit within our current structure. Lira was one of our higher earners and that's the reason he was sold. It's also the reason that approaches for Emnes, at a higher transfer fee, were rejected.

I have no idea what Lita's weekly wage is.

Mothballing certain areas of the stadium doesn't make sense. All areas of the ground currently open make the club money and any savings in doing so would be minimal.

I'm still struggling to trace this back to your original point that building this stadium was a risk and should have been better planned.

SirGooner01 Posted on 25/08/2011 14:23
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

the league cares first about the big 6 brands.

the the rest are the supporting cast and can be interchanged for interest.

west ham is a big club with the london media so that appeals to the big wigs in charge.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 25/08/2011 14:25
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

how do you know Lita was one of our higher earners and how do you know we could only afford his wages for a year (without promotion)?

Mowbray said Swansea had not bid for Emnes but that he was willing, at that time to listen to offers.

footyteam Posted on 25/08/2011 14:43
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

I disagree about other fans. for a start most geordies and mackems are lying when they say they dont care about us, they love playing us.

I speak to a load of supporters of other clubs every week, not one of them doesnt have a story about visiting boro, most say they wanna see us up.

zaphod Posted on 25/08/2011 14:47
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

SirGooner, not just West Ham. Leeds are considered to be a big attractive club.

Adi_Dem Posted on 25/08/2011 15:00
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

Well the fact that we offered Emnes a new contract and the fact that Mowbray said his wages weren't a problem tells a story.

Equally, the fact that the club said that Lita was one of the higher earners was another clue.

Still struggling to see the link to the frankly ridiculous point that you started with.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 25/08/2011 15:04
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

who from the club has stated that Lita was a high earner?

Like i said regarding Emnes we never had an offer for him from Swansea. mowbray stated that he was open to offers but that swansea had never made an offer for Emnes. Once that all dyed down, after the lita deal, Emnes signed a new deal.

Adi_Dem Posted on 25/08/2011 15:08
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

So what point are you actually making?

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 25/08/2011 15:11
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

some of what you say is guess work and plain wrong.

we never rejected any bids for emnes, and i do not know if Lita was a higher earner nor do i know if we could have only afforded him for 1 (or 2) seasons. I imagine you dont know either.

Adi_Dem Posted on 25/08/2011 15:13
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

Right, well putting that to one side because you're wrong, what point are you actually making?

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 25/08/2011 15:20
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

how can you even say that, you are now suggesting that whatever i say to you whether right or wrong you will just say i am wrong.

You admit you dont know what litas wages were but know we could only afford them for one season, mind he had been at boro for 2 seasons. Southgate signed him with Yeates and Coyne, at a time when he was given very little to spend, i doubt Yeates and Coyne had been given high earning contracts.

anyways we disagree and yet again you wont admit when you may have got something wrong.

nice article attached about Emnes and some good comments from Mowbray, he certainly has a lot of faith in the lad and thats good to know


Link: http://www.gazettelive.co.uk/boro-fc/boro-fc-news/

Adi_Dem Posted on 25/08/2011 15:27
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

No, I will tell you you're wrong when you are. If and when you are right I will let you know.

I know Lita was one of our top earners because the club told us so.

I know Emnes isn't a high earner because the club told us so.

I know that the wage bill was the problem that needed fixing rather than the debt and a need for transfer fee revenue because the club and it's filed accounts told us so.

Now, again, what point is it that you're trying to make in the context of your original 'risky stadium' point?

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 25/08/2011 15:30
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

i have googled regarding Lita and i cannot find where the club confirm he is one of our high earners.

who from the club told us this? Gibson or Mowbray or Lamb? You must know.

did the wage bill need fixing when Lita joined or after?

Adi_Dem Posted on 25/08/2011 15:33
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

Already answered all of that Raz, it's in the posts above. Seems you're unwilling or unable to answer my simple question.

I'm going to leave it there I think to avoid going down another rabbit hole and boring everyone to tears.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 25/08/2011 15:36
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

you have NEVER stated above who at the club said Lita was a high earner.

and i have asked you that specific question twice now.

MFC_Riverside Posted on 25/08/2011 15:54
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

Raz, Adi has asked you numerous specific questions and you have failed to answer most.

Northwestboro Posted on 25/08/2011 17:27
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

Since the move to the Riverside and the 13 seasons I think in the Premiership, We have a Premier Reputation amongst fans. That I speak with living in the North West, and with our average being 26-28k. They believe we should be In the Top League. It's how far we have come from since the days of Ayresome and showing little ambition. Granted they have mentioned about Tge fans/gates dropping down to 13/14k. But with The feel Good factor coming back , who knows what our average gate for this season will be.

miniboro Posted on 25/08/2011 18:53
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

Late arrival to this thread just finished glancing over it, Proudfoot im fairly sure Keegans comments were actually a reference to being marked out of a game by Willie Maddren he actually said something like "im might as well have gone shopping with the mrs than play that day"

grantus Posted on 25/08/2011 18:59
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

Better to have a stadium that has potential than not - we know that if the good time roll, we'll fill out the stadium.

Imagine having a stadium that you couldn't get into even during the bad times and half the support unable to ever see the team, our team, the community's team.

How stupid would that be?

Talk about a completely pointless argument.

FrozenHorse Posted on 25/08/2011 19:09
Are we an unfashionable club who the PL don't want promoted

Better to be filling a 35k stadium twice a season for Liverpool & ManU than filling a 24k stadium every week. The latter would mean you were turning fans away for the bigger games: not good for the fans and not good for club finnance.