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Billy_Ashcrofts_Pants Posted on 28/05/2011 23:29
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If i'd neglected my kid and they got stolen i think i'd keep my head down a bit in shame. Any thoughts?.... i'm preparing for 50% agreement and 50% getting slaughtered...fair do's.

degsyspesh Posted on 28/05/2011 23:33
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dunno, it's a tough one. I can agree with both points of view, but ultimately I think that their punishment has exceeded the crime....

ItsMe Posted on 28/05/2011 23:34
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Tend to agree with you mate, I'd feel an unbelievable level of guilt and wouldn't be able to cope. Definitely wouldn't go courting publicity.

Having said that, I suppose keeping the whole case in the public eye may give them hope that one day she'll be found and it could be helping them cope.

We'll never know their true reasons

Edwin Posted on 28/05/2011 23:35
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For f***s sake, they've lost their daughter.

Stanley_Downing Posted on 28/05/2011 23:35
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What's the book actually about? I've not read anything about it.

Adi_Dem Posted on 28/05/2011 23:36
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Whatever guilt and shame there is will be overshadowed by grief.

The McCanns will do anything they can for their daughter. The book was released to fund the search. No one can blame them for that.

Billy_Ashcrofts_Pants Posted on 28/05/2011 23:41
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Edwin - agreed their daughter has gone and it is a tragedy. But they didn't just lose her...their own neglect lost her. And no doubt their feeling of guilt goes up by 50 times for that reason...but to write a book? Cant quite see that i would act in the same way..

Adi_Dem Posted on 28/05/2011 23:42
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It's to fund the search. In their position I'd do absolutely anything to fund that.

mooghead Posted on 28/05/2011 23:43
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I remember this same argument from years ago..

[8)]

Billy_Ashcrofts_Pants Posted on 28/05/2011 23:45
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AD-totally agree, whatever it takes. And it is their money to earn and spend. They must have some knackers between them to write it and try to sell it...hopefully it will give them what they need. I for one wouldnt buy it, for all i feel very sorry for them.

degsyspesh Posted on 28/05/2011 23:47
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At the end of the day they made a terrible error of judgement and have received the worst punishment possible.

What else do you expect them to do now? All they can do is to keep looking and try to keep her in the public eye.

dorivasmiddlefinger Posted on 29/05/2011 02:20
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The media have never really questioned why she was even left on her own.

Leaving a child on their own while you go and get XXXXXXed up, simply put is neglect.
Is that a prosecutable offence?

IMHO there is something very fishy surrounding the whole fiasco.

offside-again Posted on 29/05/2011 02:27
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I agree, who would leave their kid alone like that ? Certainly not typical of middle class parents. [?]

Still it must be a living nightmare 24/7 so it's impossible not to feel very sorry for them. I hope they can eventually get the answers they need or even get her back.

EpiphanyProudfoot Posted on 29/05/2011 05:55
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'I agree, who would leave their kid alone like that ? Certainly not typical of middle class parents.'

Woow...steady on there, a bit offside maybe?


EpiphanyProudfoot Posted on 29/05/2011 06:12
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Having read just about everything made available to the public at the time, it really is a strange case.

An ultra cynical channel 4 documentary studied the modes of entry to the apartment complex and cast serious doubt over the plausibilty of the abduction theory.

I doubt whether the Portuguese police appreciated the constant intrusion by the closet sleuths of the British media, however hapless they were portrayed.


borolad259 Posted on 29/05/2011 08:26
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The accusations against them are so much cok and bull. They were accused of killing their own child, then covering it up...which would have involved the complicity of a whole group of people...every one of them. If this were the case, they would hardly be writing a book about it and keeping their daughter in the public's eye.

As for the "neglect" issue. They thought their children would be safe. Many parents leave young children in the hands of 14/15 year old kids, babysitters, trusting that they will be safe. Parents leave kids in tents on campsites and pop 30 yards away for a social...parents leave kids in cars whilst they pop into the shop. In most cases nothing happens to the children.

The McCanns thought they had a system, with their friends, that kept their kids safe. Unfortunately, an extremely rare and terrible thing happened. As someone said above...they are now paying in the worst possible way. On top of losing their daughter, they probably have to read the sort of glib, nonsense that sh1tforbrains buttwipes come up with in places like this, every XXXXXXing day. Bad form.

joshie Posted on 29/05/2011 09:04
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I dont know of any parent who leaves three children, two of whom where under 2 years old alone while they go out.

Although you cant account for some sick individual stealing a child there are other things to consider.

If either of the twins had woken up whilst the parents werent there anything could have happened,they could have been terrified, could have caused injury to themselves etc.

I am not trying to make myself out as some sort of super dad but as a single father at the time of my son being an infant I took my son abroad on holiday and at no time was he further than a couple of feet away from me in case anything did happen to him.

They have suffered terribly for their neglect but it was still neglect.

Metaxa Posted on 29/05/2011 09:05
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I have not read the book yet, don't tell me how it ends?

mwelolo Posted on 29/05/2011 09:17
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It undoubtedly was neglect, we can all make mistakes but I can't actually recall them ever admitting to making a mistake.In different circumstances such irresponsible behaviour could attract criminal charges.

This lack of acknowledgement along with their shameless quest for publicity leaves me feeling a little queesy to be honest.

fungus Posted on 29/05/2011 09:55
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"I dont know of any parent who leaves three children, two of whom where under 2 years old alone while they go out."

But do you know any who have left a child in the car while they have popped in to pay for petrol.

Or maybe have gone next door on New Years Eve while the kids are in bed.

Or gone on holiday and left their kids in the hands of the travel rep, all in the name of "the Kids Club", so that the parents can go off and do their own thing ?


Angelmatty Posted on 29/05/2011 09:57
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Got to feel sorry for anyone who loses a child in any circumstances.

But these neglected those kids.

Anyone who puts there kids in danger should keep there heads down.

buttermyarse Posted on 29/05/2011 10:02
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"As for the "neglect" issue. They thought their children would be safe"


Why would they think leaving two 2 year olds and a 4 year old on their own to go out for a meal and drinks 5 minutes walk away was ok? It beggars belief.[rle]

flaps Posted on 29/05/2011 10:04
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Have the McCann's returned to the jobs they had before she disappeared? Or does the 'find maddy' fund, that this book will contribute towards, pay for their outgoings while they look for Maddy on talk shows?

fungus Posted on 29/05/2011 10:04
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but at what point does it become unsafe

leaving kids in the car when nipping in to buy a newspaper ?

erimus74 Posted on 29/05/2011 10:06
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borolad259 to a point I agree with you, I think it's a bit different leaving your child/children alone for a minute or so,as long as you have eye contact of where they are, to leave them in a building 2 blocks away & popping back every 15 minutes is unthinkable

I feel utter sadness for everyone associated with the family, and the guilt will be with them forever

joshie Posted on 29/05/2011 10:07
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Dont know of anyone who would go next door on new years eve and leave 2 infants and a small girl alone.

Dont know anyone who would leave two 18 month infants in the hands of a travel rep.

I do know of people who would leave a child in a locked car in a camera monitored forecourt for a few minutes whilst they pay for petrol and who are watching their car whilst waiting to pay.

buttermyarse Posted on 29/05/2011 10:08
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Nipping in for a newspaper is wrong but it doesnt compare to leaving three small children to go for drinks and a meal.How long where the McCanns gone before they checked on the kids by the way?

Big_Shot Posted on 29/05/2011 10:10
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I've never quite understood why people suggest hypothetical situations to somehow justify them leaving their kids alone, none of which are ever comparable. If you think its okay to leave the kids in a hotel room and go out for meal then fine just say so. I personally don't think its crime of the century or that their 'neglect' deserved them to have their child taken. But it is amazing how people will not accept that their actions allowed what happened to happen.

mwelolo Posted on 29/05/2011 10:10
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The comparison of leaving a child in a car at a petrol garage doesn't work at all.

fungus Posted on 29/05/2011 10:14
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why not, mwelolo ?

mwelolo Posted on 29/05/2011 10:21
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Simply because of the proximity to the child and the likelyhood of being able to maintain eye contact with the car, even whilst tapping a number into a chip and pin machine.

Vrey different from leaving small children locked in a room alone in a strange country, five minutes away from their parents and for a considerably longer period of time than it takes to carry out a petrol transaction.

You are comparing elephants and dominoes I'm afraid.

100Rod100 Posted on 29/05/2011 10:25
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regardless of wehther they were right or wrong in leaving her, they have lost their daughter and have to live with that fact everyday.

i dont agree with what they did and would never leave my daughter alone like that, but im not going to act like judge and juror - they've lost their child ffs and they will take that to their grave.

Stanley_Downing Posted on 29/05/2011 10:34
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If the cars locked I think someone would notice someone breaking into the car and then stealing the child. I'd like to think even as a passer by I would intervene, ridiculous comparison.

borolad259 Posted on 29/05/2011 10:41
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Someone has committed an evil crime against them and their daughter. That is all you need to know.

You want to blame the victims? It says more about you than about them.

fungus Posted on 29/05/2011 10:41
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so you are saying it is acceptable to leave your child alone in a car, even though it is illegal, so long as a passer by will intervene - incredible

fungus Posted on 29/05/2011 10:47
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...and to compare elephants with zebras then mwelolo, ever known anyone put their kids in the hands of a complete stranger (holiday club) whilst abroad, or pop over to te neighbours whilst the kids are in bed (say to celebrate new years eve)

and are you saying leaving a child in a car is ok so long as you have eye contact (not always poosible at the petrol station though is it ?)

borolad259 Posted on 29/05/2011 11:01
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Is it ok to let your kids cross the road? At what age can they wall to school on their own? Is it ok to let your child ride a horse/pony/bmx?

All these issues of risk management are irrelevant. A child was taken by a criminal. That's cruel enough without sanctimonious tosspots pointing fingers at the parents. Some real w@nkers on here.

Ah yes, see below.

mwelolo Posted on 29/05/2011 11:01
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I would not leave a small child alone in a car at a petrol station unless I could maintain eye contact with the car.I can't actually think of a srevice station where this would not be possible - ridiculous comparison, can't believe we are still talking about it.

No I don't know anybody who has left young children with a travel rep or in a house alone at night.

Nor have I done either of these things.

mwelolo Posted on 29/05/2011 11:07
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I don't think any fair or resasonable person would say they deserved what happened but to deny that they contributed to it by creating a situation which enabled it to happen is denying the bleeding obvious.

fungus Posted on 29/05/2011 11:09
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can't think of a service station where this would not be possible ?? - oh dear

joshie Posted on 29/05/2011 11:10
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Are people being sanctimonious when they condemn the 'parents' of baby p?

I know this is an extreme comparison but at some point neglect is an issue.

You make comment about degrees of freedom and care for children, other people here are making comment about degrees of neglect.

Angelmatty Posted on 29/05/2011 11:11
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It must be just me i cannot understand why in this day and age with everything we read in papers and see on the news.

WHY TAKE THE CHANCE

These kids are innocent we are there to protect them.

fungus Posted on 29/05/2011 11:12
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but the thing is we do take chances - like leaving the kids in the car while we pay for petrol

mwelolo Posted on 29/05/2011 11:13
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You obviously can Fungus - which ones are these that you have in mind?

AS previously stated I would only leave a child in a car if I could maitain eye contact.

buttermyarse Posted on 29/05/2011 11:16
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Two completely different scenarios. Nipping into a petrol station for a minute(although it is wrong) can hardly be compared to leaving 4 children for a hour or two in a foreign country while you go for a meal and drinks.

borolad259 Posted on 29/05/2011 11:17
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Joshie, even a thick cnut like you can understand that the parents of baby P committed a criminal act and were prosecuted accordingly.
The McCanns are the victims of a criminal act. Still, persecute the victims...it makes perfect sense. [V]

mwelolo Posted on 29/05/2011 11:18
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Are you unable to differentiate varying degrees of risk?

That is very much how it appears.

joshie Posted on 29/05/2011 11:21
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Resorting to petty insults, well done, again.

I stated it was an extreme example to highlight a point.

I also stated they have suffered terribly for their neglect.

I also stated the person who stole Maddy was a sick individual.

The true victim is Maddy, the parents, in my opinion, failed in their responsibilities of caring for all their children, it was neglectful of them.

mwelolo Posted on 29/05/2011 11:24
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Can any parent on here say they would have done what the McCann's did?

borolad259 Posted on 29/05/2011 11:24
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It wasn't an insult, it was an observation based upon reading your idiotic contributions to the board over a long period of time.

joshie Posted on 29/05/2011 11:27
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Semantics.

I offer an alternate scenario, if they had found Maddy a couple of days/hours later alive but in the hands of some sick person who had kidnapped her, do you think the parents should have been prosecuted for neglect of their three children?

I do, though because of what they have had to endure I dont think they should be prosecuted and that is the only reason why not.

Angelmatty Posted on 29/05/2011 11:30
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As stated my daughter is never out of my sight when we go abroad.
Never left in a car at the garage because since she was born i will now only use pay at pump.
As for popping next door for new year that is as shameful as being left alone abroad.

bigrichardthe3rd Posted on 29/05/2011 11:31
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i still smell a rat me like[:O]

degsyspesh Posted on 29/05/2011 12:17
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Everyone takes risks when looking after their kids - but there are different magnitudes of risk.

There is a massive difference between leaving your child strapped into a car seat in a locked car while you pay for fuel and where you can can se your car at all times and what the Mcaann's did.

The Mcaann's left their kids unattended in an unlocked apartment which is uterley unbelievable - and because of it they have received a worse punishment than most people could ever dream of.

Adi_Dem Posted on 29/05/2011 12:32
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There are two issues here and one shouldn't influence your view on the other.

Firstly, I find it amazing that anyone considers this to be anything like a 'risk' that many take in their day to day lives like the petrol station example. I don't do that but I don't see it as a big deal for those that do.

Leaving three young children in an apartment quite a distance away from where you and your friends are having a meal in an area that isn't familiar to you is stupid and is a risk that I can't believe they took.

The second issue is whether they now deserve villification or sympathy. For me it's the latter. They will regret their decision every day and are doing all they can to get their daughter back. I'd do the same in their shoes.

topfarter Posted on 29/05/2011 12:32
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i bought the book, put it down for 5 minutes when i came back it had gone!

degsyspesh Posted on 29/05/2011 12:46
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I doubt that vilification could make them feel any worse anyway.

Having your children kidnapped has got to be about the worst nightmare of any parent and no matter what precautions you take there is always some degree of risk of it happening, however small that may be.

What they did was shocking beyond belief, but I would still imagine that the chances of a child being kidnapped in such circumstances are still many thousands to one.

ItsMe Posted on 29/05/2011 12:57
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I know it's a point that's been raised in the past but would they get so much sympathy if they were a 20 yr old couple from somewhere like Teesside living on benefits?
I have a feeling the media would have a field day with them if they were

degsyspesh Posted on 29/05/2011 13:04
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itsme - very true, sadly....

borolad259 Posted on 29/05/2011 13:32
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You're starting to sound like fecking chippy scousers.

Stanley_Downing Posted on 29/05/2011 13:36
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"so you are saying it is acceptable to leave your child alone in a car, even though it is illegal, so long as a passer by will intervene - incredible"

Fungus are you joking? I didn't say either were acceptable, I said the situations are totally different. In a hotel room there are not many if any people, around who would see it happen and could intervene, witness it. In a petrol station which is usually crowded there would be plenty of people around to see it happen, including you (at the blue bell you can clearly see the car).

I'm not saying either are acceptable, just saying they are totally differnet. You can't just take sentences into a context you want to have a go at someone because your arguement doesn't hold water.

fungus Posted on 29/05/2011 16:53
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depends on what those "plenty of people" actually see, a man or woman (could be their parents ?) either driving off in a car, or carrying the child.
The point I was trying to raise, was, at what point does it become unacceptable to leave a child alone (in a car, in your own house, with a holiday rep, or alone in a holiday apartment etc ?) Clearly what the Mccanns did was wrong, in my opinion, but there are loads of people who woukd leave their child alone

Jonny_Ingbar Posted on 29/05/2011 17:42
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The debate over whether they shoul have left their kids alone as they did is irrelevant really, no one could have predicted what happened.

fungus Posted on 29/05/2011 17:51
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exactly !

mwelolo Posted on 29/05/2011 18:00
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It is far from irrelevant.

If they had not left the children on their own out of sight and human contact nothing would have happened.

The children did not have to be left in such a way but they were and this act enabled the kidnapping to take place.

no_user_name Posted on 29/05/2011 20:01
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They chose dinner with friends over the welfair of their three defenceless infant children. The only people I feel sorry are the kids, Kate and Gerry will never get any sympathy from me.

What they did was neglect, pure and simple.

ThePrisoner Posted on 29/05/2011 20:17
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"i bought the book, put it down for 5 minutes when i came back it had gone!"

[:D] [cr]


Jonny_Ingbar Posted on 29/05/2011 20:32
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"It is far from irrelevant"

The point is you can't blame them for what happened, no one could ever have predicted that, so really it is irrelevant in that context.

offside-again Posted on 29/05/2011 20:36
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It's the not locking the place that makes it seem like a possibilty however small, at least lock up, damn it.

mwelolo Posted on 29/05/2011 20:50
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Their actions were contributory.

How can that be irrelevant?

EpiphanyProudfoot Posted on 29/05/2011 20:55
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Top farter, that joke of yours is literally the most unfunny pun I have ever read.

Boromart Posted on 29/05/2011 21:02
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"It's to fund the search." -- that is what they said when collecting money before. Turned out that they had spent some of it on their mortgage payments.

degsyspesh Posted on 29/05/2011 21:04
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wtf do you want them to do, lose their house?

viv_andersons_nana Posted on 29/05/2011 21:09
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One thing that has always made me have doubts about this case is the fact that Kate McCann refused to co-operate with the Portuguese police, and instead chose to remain silent when being interviewed.

You would think she would tell them everything she knew so the police stood the best possible chance of finding her daughter.

Whenever they pop up on chat-shows and in the papers, nobody seems to want to ask Kate McCann why she thought it was a good idea to refuse to answer the questions put to her and provide as much detail as possible.

For the life of me, I can't work out why she did that.


Link: The questions put to her by police...

br14 Posted on 29/05/2011 21:21
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The responses are even more interesting than the case.

Clearly there are those who believe leaving a four year alone for a couple of hours is acceptable behaviour - or at least understandable.

degsyspesh Posted on 29/05/2011 21:22
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viv - totally agree, and there are stacks of other things about this case that make absolutely no sense.

zaphod Posted on 29/05/2011 23:00
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The trail must be completely cold by now. Where are they going to search?

borolad259 Posted on 29/05/2011 23:01
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Well, I suspect "no stone unturned" may be the order of the day. It would be for me.

zaphod Posted on 29/05/2011 23:11
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I think they must have turned over every stone by now. The only thing left to do is put out posters with an aged photofit.

dorivasmiddlefinger Posted on 29/05/2011 23:29
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Didn't know she refused to answer questions.
Despicable. Went back to the tapas bar to raise the alarm?
Gerry and Kate contact Sky?


As previously stated this case is very fishy.

100Rod100 Posted on 29/05/2011 23:35
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we can all pontificate on the finer points of what and why, but the fact remains they have a lost child.

yes they maye have been reckless in how they left her, but ffs man theyve lost their child.

taking that to their grave is enough.

joshie Posted on 30/05/2011 01:34
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I do wonder about those that use the tragedy of what happened to an innocent child and the horrific aftermath of what the parents have to go through, as a reason not to accept the neglect that was involved.

I also wonder if some of these people have neglected their children to an extent and just been 'lucky'?(see buggering off round mates for new year)

Jonny_Ingbar Posted on 30/05/2011 09:20
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Viv, she was interviewed as a suspect at that point, I don't think it's surprising that she didn't answer any questions - let's not forget these are question she will have repeatedly answered already.

Much of the portuguese investigation was based on guesswork and supposition, which added suspicion to an already confused investigation.

Boromart Posted on 30/05/2011 09:35
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degsyspesh, no I don't expect them to lose their house. I do expect them to be honest when collecting money though. Saying it is for the investigation, but spending it on their home is essentially fraud.

I don't get this belief that 'they have lost their daughter that is enough punishment'. Should the same be afforded to the parents of other neglect cases. The best that can be said is that their behaviour indirectly led to their childs death. A drink driver doesn't set out to kill someone but is just acting in a selfish manner, should they not be punished either as they have to live with causing a death?

Boromart Posted on 30/05/2011 09:37
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The stuff about 'no wonder she didn't answer the question because she was interviewed as a suspect' is utter bollox. The status was needed to ask certain questions due to Portuguese law, if this had occurred in this country she still would have been asked those questions just without that tag. If someone accused me off killing my child I would answer everything open and honestly to clear my name, otherwise the doubt would always remain. I'm sorry but the whole thing is fishy and I have thought so from the start.

buttermyarse Posted on 30/05/2011 09:39
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Agree 100% Boromart[^]

rob_fmttm Posted on 30/05/2011 09:44
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There are some extremely arrogant people.

buttermyarse Posted on 30/05/2011 09:46
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Why do you say that Rob?

degsyspesh Posted on 30/05/2011 09:56
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boromart - have you got kids?

ron_manager Posted on 30/05/2011 10:15
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The disapearance of any child will always throw up unanswered questions and suspicions upon the parents.

The reason I believe they court the media and do all this fundraising is the guilt they feel about leaving their daughter alone.

Jonny_Ingbar Posted on 30/05/2011 10:26
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Boromart, as the above post pints out, the arrogance of your opinion is mind-blowing.

They could never ever have possibly foreseen the consequences of leaving their children as they did, comparing their actions to those of a drink driver is incredible to say the least.

As anyone who has spent time in the company if the McCann's will tell you, they are genuine, very humble people.

buttermyarse Posted on 30/05/2011 10:34
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"They could never ever have possibly foreseen the consequences of leaving their children as they did"

The abduction scenario could never have been envisaged.However even the stupidest parents in the world should realise the consequences of leaving three kids under five years old alone.Thay should be prosecuted

Boromart Posted on 30/05/2011 10:44
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degsyspesh, I have two young kids....and have NEVER left them alone. Apart from the possibilities of abduction, young kids left alone can also seriously hurt themselves by climbing and falling, drinking nail varnish, flood the apartment by messing about with the sink, electrocute themsleves etc.

They could also fall ill and you are not there to comfort them, they could poo their nappies and sit in discomfort for sometime, they could become frightened by waking up alone.

There are a whole host of scenarios that anyone who is a parent would envisage and see that leaving the kids alone is beyond stupid.

...and no I do not think I am the perfect parent, I don't do everything perfect, but I know the boundaries where neglect and danger start.

mwelolo Posted on 30/05/2011 10:45
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They were negligent, however you cut it.

How the hell is it arrogant to make such an obvious statement?

Any decent person will feel sorry for what happened and understand their pain at loosing a child but the fact remains - if they had not been irresponsible their daughter would not have been taken(assuming she was).

Jonny_Ingbar Posted on 30/05/2011 10:57
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It can be for the reason I've already pointed out.

I would never leave my kids alone like that, and given their time again I know the McCann's wouldn't, but how often do you think kids get abducted? It's so rare it's that you can't hold them responsible for what happened.

I know one wouldn't have led to the other, tradgedies are always the consequence of many differing circumstances, the only person to blame here is the person that took Madeleine McCann.

It's always surprisedme that the main focus of people's attention, is to cast judgement on them for leaving the kids alone, not the tragedy of what actually happened thereafter.

mwelolo Posted on 30/05/2011 10:59
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They created a set of circumstances which allowed it to happen, there is no way of getting away from that.

Also I am still not clear how it can be seen as arrogant to point out the bleeding obvious in this respect.

Boromart Posted on 30/05/2011 10:59
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exactly mwelolo, it is a fact that they were negligent. It doesn't make anyone arrogant to state so, you also do not need to be perfect to understand that they were negligent, you don't even need to have experienced being a parent to see that they were negligent.

I don't really care if they they are 'genuine people', that simply does not balance out their neglect. I know it has been done to death, but if this was some council estate family would people bang on about them being 'genuine' as a defence? I find it hard to imagine that they would.

Johnny, I think the reason people focus on them is that they have sought it by attempting to be media savvy.

Jonny_Ingbar Posted on 30/05/2011 11:25
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The arrogance comes from the implication that they should have known better.

There seems to be a lot of dislike for the McCanns, not just on here, which I find quite sad tbh, regardless of their failings.

degsyspesh Posted on 30/05/2011 11:47
This McCann Book...

boromart - my query related to your "I don't get this belief that 'they have lost their daughter that is enough punishment'"

I don't for one second condone (or even understand) what they did, I do however feel that they have received a punishment far greater than most people could ever imagine.

What additional punishment would you like to see them receive and what do you think that it would achieve?

Ayresomes_on_Fire Posted on 30/05/2011 12:40
This McCann Book...

Nailed on ton this like..!!

no_user_name Posted on 30/05/2011 13:03
This McCann Book...

"The arrogance comes from the implication that they should have known better."

If they went to the shop to grab some milk/nappies etc then I can somewhat take that as a viable excuse, (still neglect mind) however they left them for significant periods of time to have a meal in a restaurant.

They knew the risks, I find it impossible to believe that at some point they never had a conversation about if its right to leave them alone. Like I said they knew the risks, they just chose to ignore them to have a meal with friends without the kids.

Adi_Dem Posted on 30/05/2011 13:04
This McCann Book...

I don't think any right minded person can condone their actions. It is entirely unthinkable to me. I have a 6 year old and a 3 year old. It would never enter my head to leave them alone in the way the McCanns did. I do find what they did absolutely incredible. I do believe they neglected their children.

However, they and their daughter paid an extraordinarily high price for it that would probably happen once in a thousand times.

That said, I feel terribly sorry for them. I don't think they or she deserves what happened and I understand their need to do everything they can.

Incidentally, Kate McCann explains why she stayed silent. I remember reading it and thinking it sounded reasonable. Can't remember what that reason was though.

Jonny_Ingbar Posted on 30/05/2011 13:14
This McCann Book...

Once in a thousand times Adi?

Child abduction is incredibly rare, they could have done that a million times and still had it not happen.


Space_Face Posted on 30/05/2011 13:16
This McCann Book...

What do people want? Child neglect charges brought? Their other children taken into care?

viv_andersons_nana Posted on 30/05/2011 13:22
This McCann Book...

I've looked for the reasons Kate McCann gave for remaining silent, Adi, and I can't find anything online. Maybe someone can help out with that?

Space_Face - I think people want the fact they neglected their daughter in the lead up to her disappearance to be acknowledged. So many children go missing every day and their parents aren't afforded the same treatment as the McCanns.

joseph99 Posted on 30/05/2011 13:25
This McCann Book...

I agree with Adi - we personally (as parents) would never leave the kids at that age under those circumstances, unsupervised.

Once when my daughter was a tot, we left her in a locked hotel bedroom as she slept. We used a radio-controlled monitoring system so that whilst we were dining we could hear the baby breathing and moving. Even then, we were not completely comfortable. To leave them without a monitoring system is unbelievable - the worry of fire, choking, sickness, one waking up etc, would be the main concern - not necessarily the unlikely threat of abduction.

They are grieving people riddled with guilt. They've chosen to grieve in public (for a variety of reasons) which understandably irks some people. Good luck to them both but I would not personally buy or read it.


Adi_Dem Posted on 30/05/2011 13:27
This McCann Book...

Agreed jonny, just a figure of speech.

It's in the book viv if that helps. I can't find it either.

Space_Face Posted on 30/05/2011 13:29
This McCann Book...

Acknowledged by whom? I think everybody knows their actions allowed it to happen.

Perhaps she refused to talk as she had been publicly made a suspect? That and/or doing exactly what her legal representative had advised? Can't think of another reason, or that I wouldn't honestly answer those questions.

richb Posted on 30/05/2011 13:30
This McCann Book...

I dont really think that anyone would say they want any charges brought against them.

However it's very likely if this was a family on benefits in Middlesbrough, Liverpool, Newcastle, Glasgow, etc then neglect charges would have brought against them and the other children brought into care. And all of the papers who support the Mccanns would be fully behind that.

I would never dream of leaving my child alone in bed for any reason at home, never mind in a hotel. I don't care whether this would be to go to a friends house next door, to go to the shop, for a meal or for any other reason. Never mind child abduction, there's so many other possible dangers that are more likely to happen. I've never spoke to or known anyone who would think this is an ok thing to do either!!

I can look at the facts and think what they did was neglectful yet still have sympathy for them and hope that she is alive and that they do find her.

I'd also question why it would be arrogant to think they should know better. I'd have thought it was common sence to know not to leave 3 very young children in on their own.

viv_andersons_nana Posted on 30/05/2011 13:30
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So i'll have to buy the book then? Bloody hell. I think i'll just wait until someone buys Nana it for Christmas.

joseph99 Posted on 30/05/2011 13:33
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Is Richb a parent?

Jonny_Ingbar Posted on 30/05/2011 13:33
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Richb, i can tell you with some certainty that they wouldn't be prosecuted if this had happened in this country, regardless of their social demographic.

mwelolo Posted on 30/05/2011 13:37
This McCann Book...

I think the arrogance accusation is frankly ridiculous.

Someone suggested earlier that they did not lock the apartment. Is this true?

If it is true could she not have let herself out for some or other reason then been aprehended?

Space_Face Posted on 30/05/2011 13:39
This McCann Book...

I guess it was decided (if it were ever considered) that checking on the kids every 30 minutes was 'adequate supervision'. Or that the abductor was the guilty party and further punishment would serve no purpose or come close to matching the torment they are experiencing. Never worked in Children's Services but I think, even underclass single mothers, would need to be suspected of willful and persistent neglect before any court orders were sought.

degsyspesh Posted on 30/05/2011 13:46
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patio doors left unlocked......


Link: according to the fail anyway.....

Adi_Dem Posted on 30/05/2011 14:50
This McCann Book...

Yeah my impression was that the apartment was unlocked. Like someone said above, even if abduction didn't enter your head wouldn't any responsible parent be thinking about the basic danger of them being alone? I know how much trouble my son can get into at home, in a safe environment if I turn my back for 10 seconds.

Over and above that there is also the emotional side. I would physically hate the thought of my little ones waking in a strange place without either of their parents there.

So forget the abduction scenario, what about just basic parenting? What about just caring for your child?

That's why I can't understand what they did. There is nothing wrong or arrogant in saying that either and it doesn't mean I don't feel really sorry for them.

Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 30/05/2011 15:13
This McCann Book...

RichB hit the nail on the head. The other kids would have been whipped off by social services had they been poor.

Does the original detective investigating the case still think they may have been involved in her disappearance?

Senor_Chester Posted on 30/05/2011 15:55
This McCann Book...

"One thing that has always made me have doubts about this case is the fact that Kate McCann refused to co-operate with the Portuguese police, and instead chose to remain silent when being interviewed.
You would think she would tell them everything she knew so the police stood the best possible chance of finding her daughter"

There's a myriad of reasons as to why she'd have stayed silent, don't forget that she'll have already given them all the information previously. Had Gerry Mccann answered the questions?

"RichB hit the nail on the head. The other kids would have been whipped off by social services had they been poor."

You know this for sure do you?

Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 30/05/2011 17:00
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Absolutely.

Steel-City_Smoggy Posted on 30/05/2011 17:11
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Cashing in on their own daughters disappearance! Absolutely shocking and totally unecessary!

degsyspesh Posted on 30/05/2011 17:14
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"cashing in"?

interesting way of looking at it I suppose......[rle]

Boromart Posted on 30/05/2011 17:42
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degsyspesh, they should be treated the same as any other family and face the same punishment or at least investigation as those. As someone else said there should at least be an acknowledgement that they were neglectful.

Boromart Posted on 30/05/2011 17:46
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"Child abduction is incredibly rare, they could have done that a million times and still had it not happen" -- but much less rare is children getting hurt when left alone, fires, injuries from falling, or the emotional side caused by waking up alone in an unfamiliar environment and panicking.

Boromart Posted on 30/05/2011 17:54
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"Had Gerry Mccann answered the questions?"
Basic policing involves corroborating stories of witnesses. Why should they not be allowed to question both parents individually? Considering that almost the vast majority of abductions and murders are perpetrated by someone that knew the victim then the portuguese police would not have been doing their job if they hadn't attempted to rule out the parents. It's basic policing the world over and Kate McCann felt that she didn't need to comply with that.

offside-again Posted on 30/05/2011 18:06
This McCann Book...

patio doors left unlocked......

That's the bit that really beggars belief for me, at least lock the sodding door.

But I suppose that's an 'arrogant' thing to say. [|)] I'm gonna burn in hell.

ClaireSmith Posted on 30/05/2011 18:13
This McCann Book...

I got a copy of the McCann book to read on holiday.

I went out for a few drinks one night and left it in the hotel room. Needless to say, it was gone when I went to check on it.

Either that, or I got bored of it's constant whining and moaning one afternoon and in a rare fit of temper I beat it to death and paid a local to dump the remains.

nathan007 Posted on 30/05/2011 18:15
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As much as i hate the McCanns. I hope none of us ever have to go through what they are going through everyday!

Senor_Chester Posted on 30/05/2011 18:59
This McCann Book...

"Basic policing involves corroborating stories of witnesses. Why should they not be allowed to question both parents individually? Considering that almost the vast majority of abductions and murders are perpetrated by someone that knew the victim then the portuguese police would not have been doing their job if they hadn't attempted to rule out the parents. It's basic policing the world over and Kate McCann felt that she didn't need to comply with that."

I think you've taken what I've said the wrong way, I wasn't saying that they were interviewed at the same time, nor that they should be.

The questions at this stage of the investigation will have had little to do with the search, more to do with the Portugese police closing the case off with a conclusion.

Billy_Ashcrofts_Pants Posted on 30/05/2011 21:42
This McCann Book...

Lots of intelligent discussion and pointers... one last question though... would you buy the book? Put me down for a no...

degsyspesh Posted on 30/05/2011 21:50
This McCann Book...

"would you buy the book?"

Not a chance.

As much as I feel sorry for them, I really don't like the way that they come across (to me anyway) - I may have missed it but I've never seen any real remorse from them for leaving her unattended.

susy Posted on 30/05/2011 22:10
This McCann Book...

Would I buy this book... no but many will

Would I buy a book about or for Ben Needham, yes.

Why? I do feel sorry for both parents. This is one of the worse things that could ever happen to a person. My guess is that the way the press handled the case with Ben Needham was very sympathetic and was shocking but he was left for moments playing outside in a safe environment by his Gran. Nothing out of the ordinary there. However Maddie went missing after being left with her younger siblings in an apartment while the parents were minutes away from them, not able to hear them if they awoke or got in to any trouble or distress of any kind. We dont know if they were actually asleep when they were left even. Parents abroad have their children with them while they eat out so they wouldnt have been out of place. If they needed sleep at that time then push chairs and cuddling into mum or dad are always acceptable.

I do feel for the parents and hope there will be answers for them some day soon.

mwelolo Posted on 31/05/2011 08:17
This McCann Book...

That's a no from me.

It would be interseting to see if there was any sort of breakdown of exactly what the proceeds of this book will be used to fund.

Ian_Bairds_Ears Posted on 31/05/2011 11:25
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"As for the "neglect" issue. They thought their children would be safe. Many parents leave young children in the hands of 14/15 year old kids, babysitters, trusting that they will be safe. Parents leave kids in tents on campsites and pop 30 yards away for a social...parents leave kids in cars whilst they pop into the shop. In most cases nothing happens to the children."


Borolad259...They went for a foo*in meal leaving their twin girls and Madeline either sleeping or sedated..whichever you care to believe..Im not having it.

If they were from South Bank/Pally Park they would have been castigated from pillar to post mercilessly as poor chav parents with no morals..Their jobs and middle class status seems to make people not see the blatantly obvious..IMHO...And its all about opinioms at the end of the day.

[?][^]


sasboro1 Posted on 31/05/2011 11:29
This McCann Book...

if they werent middle class, these threads wouldnt keep coming up.

The_same_as_before Posted on 31/05/2011 11:32
This McCann Book...

I suppose we are middle class (ish), we have taken our kids abroad dozens of times, we never left them alone.

Why would you want to? to have a pizza with your mates, I cant see it.

oooooo Posted on 31/05/2011 11:47
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"If they were from South Bank/Pally Park they would have been castigated from pillar to post mercilessly as poor chav parents with no morals"

Remember Shannon Matthews? Doesn't get a thread on here every week. What about Ben Needham? Where are those threads?

mwelolo Posted on 31/05/2011 12:07
This McCann Book...

In fairness Shannon Mathews' nearest and dearest set up her kidnap for the purposes of extorting money - a bit different from this case.

The McCanns are clearly far from blameless but I don't think they quite sank to that level.

Manfriday Posted on 31/05/2011 13:32
This McCann Book...

I read a little bit online about this yesterday whilst travelling. Kate said they had debated about whether to go meet their friends that night as the kids had an unsettled night the night before, but decided to go out so as not to be unsocialable....
This wasn't the 1st night of the holiday that they went out, leaving the kids alone (as the other tapas parents were also doing).
Kate and Gerry had fell out the night before the kidnapping because Gerry was unsocialable and decided to go to bed at midnight, leaving her in the tapas bar alone with their friends....
Yes its incredibly sad what has occurred but it doesn't hide the fact they were neglectful parents. Why take the kids on holiday if they wanted to spend most of the time being 'socialable' with friends, without the kids?

degsyspesh Posted on 31/05/2011 13:38
This McCann Book...

I just can't imagine under what circumstances any normal person would leave 3 young children in an unlocked room several minutes away from where they were with no baby monitor etc.

OK, the chances of kidnapping are fairly low - but what about fire or illness?? It beggars belief that anyone would actually do this,

Dibzzz Posted on 31/05/2011 13:44
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Poor kid.

Adi_Dem Posted on 31/05/2011 13:45
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Exactly Degsy.

Whenever I've been on holiday, I have always packed, believe it or not, a wireless router and some wi fi cameras and put them in the kids' bedrooms when they went to bed every night as an alternative to a baby monitor.

If we went to a restaurant, they would always be with us. If we stayed in to eat they would be on the same level of the villa when they went to bed with all of the doors locked and us eating just outside their room and me on my laptop watching the infrared camera!!

Now that might well be a bit OTT but it is entirely abhorrent to me to do what the McCann's did.

Manfriday Posted on 31/05/2011 13:58
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or just dont spend all night, every night, pishing it up in a tapas bar with a group of friends whilst your 3 young children are asleep on their own back at the apartment....
It's frightening to know that Kate and Gerry, as well as all of their friends, thought this was an ok arrangement.
If disagreeing with that makes me 'arrogant', then so be it.

Adi_Dem Posted on 31/05/2011 14:07
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It doesn't Manfriday, it's just plainly wrong and no-one will persuade me otherwise.

viv_andersons_nana Posted on 31/05/2011 14:09
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Dibzzz - [^]

Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 31/05/2011 14:17
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Is there any correlation between those supporting the McCanns and those condemning women from Middlesbrough making sure that their children get to school ok, despite being dressed unconventionally?

The_same_as_before Posted on 31/05/2011 14:21
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You have just summed up the Daily Mail there.

That newspaper? and Mr Heslops rag have pretty much caused the Measles outbreak in the UK. At least PI had the bottle to admit being wrong and ashamed of its self.

Manfriday Posted on 31/05/2011 14:26
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The list of questions she refused to answer as a suspect, does anyone know if these questions were ever answered, either by her earlier in the disappearance or by her husband?
I'm genuinely interested in some of the answers ie, who phoned the police and at what stage, did she search the apartment before going back to the bar to announce the abduction. I fully agree with their calls for a full review of ALL of the evidence