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Buddy Posted on 18/05/2011 13:55
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

.


Link: Untypical

Capybara Posted on 18/05/2011 13:56
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

Second line. 'maelstrom' ffs.

Midosparmo Posted on 18/05/2011 13:59
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

Vickers has raided the board again for ideas I see.

Buddy Posted on 18/05/2011 14:00
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

I think there may be a degree of post-publication editing for typos...

Jasper Posted on 18/05/2011 14:01
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

clearly looks at this board. Who does Vickers post as ?

Capybara Posted on 18/05/2011 14:01
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

He certainly seems to use this place as his dictionary. He'll be telling us it's 'doggy dog' in the blogging world next.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 18/05/2011 14:03
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

He seems blinded by nostalgia, didnít Mowbray say when he joined that he couldnít believe the system we had in place for scouting players etc. This is a clear restructure to help modernise the structure of the club, probably project managed by Mowbray, as it is clear he has clear visions for the club.

fatharrywhite Posted on 18/05/2011 14:06
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

"He seems blinded by nostalgia, didnít Mowbray say when he joined that he couldnít believe the system we had in place for scouting players etc"

he did - but that was down to strachan. it was in place under southgate but strachan had his own ideas....not down to KL, unless your suggesting he should be interfering in the way the manager runs the team...

Buddy Posted on 18/05/2011 14:08
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

That's one of the more sensible things you've ever posted actually RAZ. Careful now.

Capybara Posted on 18/05/2011 14:10
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

OK, now that's 'maelstrom' sorted. Next, the accepted spelling of the Chinese pseudo-scientific nonsense is 'feng shui'. Glad to help.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 18/05/2011 14:11
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

i think you are incorrect, he said that when he was at ipswich and celtic they both had a database of players around the world they used, and he could not believe that we had no such system in place.

I doubt very much that if we had such a system Strachan would have made Middlesbrough FC delete it, however i can believe that he, southgate, SMAC and Robson all used the contacts they had and relied heavily on Lamb to do the scouting and fact finding etc.

Midosparmo Posted on 18/05/2011 14:14
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

To be fair after Alves the club maybe thought actual knowledge was more use then databases and youtube etc.

Buddy Posted on 18/05/2011 14:14
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

Go on Capy, do him a list [:D][;)]

fatharrywhite Posted on 18/05/2011 14:17
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

"they had and relied heavily on Lamb to do the scouting and fact finding etc."

jesus wept, and just after you'd been praised by buddy for finally saying something sensible you come up with that pearler.

You honestly think he had anything to do with scouting players!?

Link is what southgate said after becoming manager




Link: link

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 18/05/2011 14:18
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

i think mowbrays point was that they had a proper scouting system in place, something we have never had in place at least since Robson was signed up, probably because he had so many contacts in the game he didnt need an expensive scouting system in place.

fatharrywhite Posted on 18/05/2011 14:21
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

take it you didnt bother reading the skysports link where southgate said that a proper scouting system had been set up..

MightyDuck Posted on 18/05/2011 14:22
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

"He is not just Steve Gibson's human shild you know"

Vickers does not have spell check

Midosparmo Posted on 18/05/2011 14:23
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

We signed up David Mills & Gordon McQueen as scouts in the Southgate era.
After that perhaps the boro went off scouts a bit?

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 18/05/2011 14:24
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

i am not saying Lamb was the only member of such a system, like McQueen etc, they will have all got involved.. I am saying Lamb was clearly heavily relied on with the scouting and players negotiations.

It was a system run badly up until southgate, and ran badly with Strachan. Now if it improved vastly under Southgate we did not see it on the pitch or in the squad.

sasboro1 Posted on 18/05/2011 14:25
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

a new manager will insist on doing things his way. so what went on before will get changed. its liek when every manager says he couldn't believe how unfit the players were. doesnt mean the players are getting any fitter really

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 18/05/2011 14:31
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

but managers with previous experience of being a manager are able to take that experience on and use it, depending on the mind set (i.e. gordons way wasnt the best) they can have some very good ideas that they know have been a success at other clubs.

Robson SMAC and Southgate were trying things for the first time so were more likely to get things wrong

fatharrywhite Posted on 18/05/2011 14:33
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

KL had XXXXXX all to do with scouting players - it's not his role and not the role of any chief exec at any club. he negotiates the financial aspects and that's it.

You're implying that it's the 'club moving forward' as one of the reasons he is leaving. If that's the case he would have went when southgate was manager as he said back when he took over the same thing mogga has said.

Capybara Posted on 18/05/2011 14:33
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

[:D]

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 18/05/2011 14:36
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

fatharrywhite no he hasnt said the same things, he pointed out what we all knew, that SMAC in certain aspects of the game wasnt the greatest manager. Southgate pointed issues he had with SMAC and not so long ago juninho pointed out isuues with SMAC. SMAC was very self governing and that isnt always the best way in a large organisation like a football club.

Midosparmo Posted on 18/05/2011 14:40
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

SMac acted like a coont with some players.
A tip he learnt off Fergie and to a large extent it worked.
However he never had the credentials of fergie that allowed him to be a coont and yet still be liked by the players.

Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 18/05/2011 14:42
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

'all used the contacts they had and relied heavily on Lamb to do the scouting'

Village idiot.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 18/05/2011 14:43
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

i considered his england role whilst managing us at the time to be wrong, it was very self centred of him, and he was looking to further his career rather than concentrate full time on middlesbrough fc.

Cleveleyssmoggie Posted on 18/05/2011 14:46
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

SMAC was an experienced coach but a young inexperienced manager.

ALL managers, regardless of the business they are in, make mistakes it's how you learn from them that counts.

Even Alex Ferguson has made mistakes, and lost titles as a consequence. The signing of Lauren Blanc being one example.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 18/05/2011 14:49
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

experienced managers make less mistakes than inexperienced managers, however, inexperienced managers are cheaper.

Cleveleyssmoggie Posted on 18/05/2011 14:50
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

and today is Wednesday.

sasboro1 Posted on 18/05/2011 14:56
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

is wenger crap because he wont spend money and push them on? why arent heir fans refusing to go until wenger leaves?

Capybara Posted on 18/05/2011 15:00
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

Because they have only just got to the booing-the-players-on-the-end-of-season-lap-of-honour stage?

skiprat Posted on 18/05/2011 15:09
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

Seems to have been took down...

Buddy Posted on 18/05/2011 16:11
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

Hmmm.

NorfolknGood Posted on 18/05/2011 16:11
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

click on the cached version. Its still there

Midosparmo Posted on 18/05/2011 16:12
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

Hes been found out and is now hiding the evidence.

viv_andersons_nana Posted on 18/05/2011 16:34
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

He needs to have a long think about whether he has said all he can say about the Boro. Or maybe just try and work on some different styles and techniques, because he could just copy & paste the vast majority of his writing from one article to the next and nobody would be any the wiser.

His style seems a bit tired now, and he could do with a fresh approach.

Buddy Posted on 18/05/2011 19:31
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

Bit harsh viv. I think the point of that blog is mainly quick reaction mixed with a bit of insight. I'd be fascinated to know why it's been taken down, didn't spot anything to interest m'learned friends on a first reading.

viv_andersons_nana Posted on 18/05/2011 19:38
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

Yes, probably a bit harsh with what I said. I just find a lot of his recent stuff really frustrating because he is a talented writer. I wish he would shake his style up a bit and really push himself on because he is capable of producing some really interesting writing.

That said, I do make a point of reading him every week and will continue to do so.

redwurzel Posted on 18/05/2011 19:55
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

I think we have enough evidence to suggest Southgate was not at the centre of some transfer decisons - we don't know who was, but indications are it was either Gibbo or Lamb, based on a lot of factors I would imagine, such as scouts reports and finances.

Silkman seemed to be acting like a chief scout for us in the SMac era according to interviews he has given, but he was dropped like a stone in 2006.

Strachan seemed to be his own man, but appeared to misjudge the quality difference between England and Scotland in 2010.

viv_andersons_nana Posted on 18/05/2011 20:23
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

"I think we have enough evidence to suggest Southgate was not at the centre of some transfer decisons"

Go on then, enlighten us.

Buddy Posted on 18/05/2011 20:36
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

.


Link: Evidence

viv_andersons_nana Posted on 18/05/2011 20:42
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

Not what Kee Flam reckons, Buddy.


Link: Lamb on Alves

Buddy Posted on 18/05/2011 20:56
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

I know, so it's a straightforward case of which one of them you trust more.

viv_andersons_nana Posted on 18/05/2011 21:07
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

I'm probably going to come down on the side of Lamb, to be honest.

Southgate was more than happy to take all the credit when Alves arrived, but not the flak once it turned out he wasn't what we were hoping for.

captain5 Posted on 18/05/2011 21:09
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

Southgate even said at the time we'd tracked him since the pre-season game we'd played over there.

Either way, it paints Gate in a bad light. I'd prefer to think he'd signed a dud rather than be browbeaten into the biggest signing he would make.

gerd_muller Posted on 18/05/2011 21:19
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

whatever the reasons, this is not a measured step to retirement or planning for the new exec to take us forward

for me its obvious lamb has been sacked or been asked to step down

he has been running the club carte blanche for a number of years now

the fax machine
3 points fiasco
CC cup final ticket fiasco
Ziege contract
Alves
Appointing Strachan after bumping into him
Players leaving under value

Im amazed he's been in the job this long, he should have been sacked years ago - no fcking sympathy whatsoever from me

captain5 Posted on 18/05/2011 21:22
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

I don't think he would particularly need or want any sympathy from you, to be honest.


gerd_muller Posted on 18/05/2011 21:23
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

dya think i give a fck

hes been a shyte chief exec, nice bloke or not

foggysfplandiet Posted on 18/05/2011 21:23
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

So why HAS he been in the job for 25 years if all or even some of that is true, Muller?

gerd_muller Posted on 18/05/2011 21:24
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

Only SG knows the answer to that mystery

viv_andersons_nana Posted on 18/05/2011 21:25
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

Someone's had one fizzy Chewit too many, it seems.

captain5 Posted on 18/05/2011 21:26
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

The Chief Executive during our most successful period ever you mean, shurely??

mattyk50 Posted on 18/05/2011 21:29
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

so what did the article say then??

has it been pulled for spellchecking?

[rle]

_hachinger_jungs Posted on 18/05/2011 21:29
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb


I'll always remember Brazilian planko Branco saying that he regards him as a 'lifelong friend'.
Pretty much says it all really; Keith Lamb, the man who turned a string of garbage footballers into MILLIONAIRES! [:(!]

captain5 Posted on 18/05/2011 21:31
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

Damn you Lamb and your World Cup Winning signings!!!

*shakes fist*

viv_andersons_nana Posted on 18/05/2011 21:33
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

Yeah because Branco never had a pot to pish in before the Boro came along did he.

gerd_muller Posted on 18/05/2011 21:33
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

AND thats why we find ourselves in the worst financial situation since 1986??

I wonder eh

Keith Lamb, Day to Day cheif exec, chief of operations, nah finances have got fck al to do with him eh?

The same guy sanctioned 13M euros on alves just before the crash so we had to pay an additional 5M eur???

_hachinger_jungs Posted on 18/05/2011 21:35
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

"Damn you Lamb and your World Cup Winning aignings!!!"

Yeah, and they all came purely for the love of the club only, eh. [:o)]

viv_andersons_nana Posted on 18/05/2011 21:35
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

Deary me.

gerd_muller Posted on 18/05/2011 21:38
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

viv - shouldnt you be washing your Juninho foam hands ready for the new season?

captain5 Posted on 18/05/2011 21:41
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

Well, who's being naive now??

Most of the players we've loved in modern times didn't come here because of the place.

We (Gibson, (Lamb), Robson)put in place a policy where would try and attract big names by paying top money to get us a place at the top table.

We were as cynical as any player but unless you wanted us ran as a lower league club, on a shoestring, then I don't see what you have to complain about overall.

I certainly didn't shake my head in exasperation at his salary as Rav made his debut against Liverpool.

viv_andersons_nana Posted on 18/05/2011 21:42
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

They were washed the day after the Donny game, along with my Roary pyjamas.



gerd_muller Posted on 18/05/2011 21:45
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

Yes, but there is a difference in attracting top players and wasting money hand over fist

not just players wages, his overall management has been dire to say the least - as chief exec he is accountable for everything - Gibson is the Chairman in case you need reminding

captain5 Posted on 18/05/2011 21:47
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

I've not forgotten at all.

Lamb spent all his time here getting us into trouble so that Gibson could ride in on his white charger and rescue us.

sasboro1 Posted on 18/05/2011 21:48
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

big money=attracting top players. why do all players have agents now? sorry but modern footballers dont play for the love of the club nbut the love of the money.


every clubs with money has wasted it at somepoint. some signings work out fantastic other are disaster. same for most clubs really

gerd_muller Posted on 18/05/2011 21:48
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

Fck me, i give up

captain5 Posted on 18/05/2011 21:49
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

Sounds like you did years ago.

viv_andersons_nana Posted on 18/05/2011 21:49
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

Show us a club that hasn't wasted money hand-over-fist, gerd.

Jonny_Ingbar Posted on 18/05/2011 21:54
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

Compared to some clubs our wastage has been relatively modest.

johngannoncorners Posted on 18/05/2011 23:07
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

Gerd Muller,

When you say the

board playing up! CBA!

beamishboro Posted on 18/05/2011 23:14
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

'This is a clear restructure to help modernise the structure of the club, probably project managed by Mowbray'

dear god[:o)][:o)][:o)]

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 19/05/2011 07:28
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

'every clubs with money has wasted it at somepoint. some signings work out fantastic other are disaster. same for most clubs really'

the difference is that other clubs that waste 10million on a player can afford to waste 10million on a player, we are a club that waster that amount and financially we could not afford to do so.

We are not Manu or Chelsea.

fatharrywhite Posted on 19/05/2011 09:45
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

"The same guy sanctioned 13M euros on alves just before the crash so we had to pay an additional 5M eur???"

that was complete bollox that was made up by fans at the time..

Capybara Posted on 19/05/2011 09:47
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

So why was it taken down? It was a decent enough article. Once we got some of the spelling sorted out.

sasboro1 Posted on 19/05/2011 09:49
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

i reckon if you go through the top 40 clubs you will find plenty of money wasted by clubs. signing a player is always a risk. look at torres. scoring loads for liverpool and one of the best strikers around, got injured. sold to chelsea for £50m and now looks poor.small clubs probably waste money but obviously its relative to what their income is.

we did well to get 7m back for alves, got our money back on woodgate, got a good price for johnson who was goign out of contract,sold downing for a good price when he had a broken foot, got our money back on huth, made 6m on tuncay, made about 5m on yakubu, made about 7m on juninho, got our money back on barmby,got a decent price for wheater, made 2m on brad jones, brought in mendieta without a fee, got zenden and geremi without a fee.

its natural lamb wasnt popular with the players because lamb will drive a hard bargain to keep mfc finances within budget he was given. he has the club's interest as priority

captain5 Posted on 19/05/2011 09:53
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

Harry, even if it's true it assumes about a 38% swing in the echange rate during that time which is patently rubbish.

Luckily the people peddling this sort of thing don't even think about checking that sort of thing.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 19/05/2011 09:57
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

'small clubs probably waste money but obviously its relative to what their income is.
'

8.15million and 10million for players isnt relative to waste that cost to what our income is.

You compared us wasting 8.15million for example to chelsea wasting 50million. That says alot to what you think are relative to one club compared to another.

Humpty Posted on 19/05/2011 09:59
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

GerdMuller why are you willing to accept his failings but not his achievements?

UAUA Posted on 19/05/2011 10:05
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

It depends over what length of time you are talking about.

The pound/euro went from over 1.5 to just over 1.0 in less than two years.

gerd_muller Posted on 19/05/2011 10:10
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

We agreed a price of 18M Euros when ex rate was 1.3 / 1.4 - 6 months later it was just over 1 - therefore we paid nearly 18M sterling

He has made achievements which have been well documented, but failings ive mentioned before should have been handled better

For example running players contracts down without tieing them down, letting tuncay and huth go for 5m each - even stoke felt they got 2 for 1 deal, johnson for 7m when man city were buying players for average of 22/23M

MightyDuck Posted on 19/05/2011 10:11
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

i dont think that the failing of the Euro was entirely keith Lambs fault

sasboro1 Posted on 19/05/2011 10:12
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

"You compared us wasting 8.15million for example to chelsea wasting 50million. That says alot to what you think are relative to one club compared to another."

what was our revenue at the time we bought alves? what is chelsea's revenue this season?

like i said all teams waste money. its not going to change just because lamb has left.

gerd_muller Posted on 19/05/2011 10:12
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

Alves was massively overpriced in any currency

sasboro1 Posted on 19/05/2011 10:15
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

"For example running players contracts down without tieing them down, letting tuncay and huth go for 5m each - even stoke felt they got 2 for 1 deal, johnson for 7m when man city were buying players for average of 22/23M"

we got tuncay on a free, sold him for 6m and since then stoke moved him on. good deal i reckon.

johnson was running his contract down. had limited top flight experience. only been playing well for 4 months in the championship. we would have got less in the summer at a tribunal. if man city hadnt come in he might have stayed until the summer and then gone for about 4m

gerd_muller Posted on 19/05/2011 10:17
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

'Johnson running his contract down'

who drew up the contract?

speckyget Posted on 19/05/2011 10:18
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

'i dont think that the failing of the Euro was entirely keith Lambs fault'

Cuh. Everybody's Jean-Claude Trichet all of a sudden.

fatharrywhite Posted on 19/05/2011 10:19
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

"We agreed a price of 18M Euros when ex rate was 1.3 / 1.4 - 6 months later it was just over 1 - therefore we paid nearly 18M sterling"

all very true......just a shame that both parties were protected against any changes in the exchange rate so we didnt pay any more and wouldnt have paid any less if the exchange rate had increased..

sasboro1 Posted on 19/05/2011 10:20
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

you cant blame lamb on that really. if a player has his eye on leaving a club, no matter what you do he will leave. johnson was looking to leave for 18 months. dont forget in the premier league he wasnt really showing much when given the chance. so why should he be offered a massive lucrative contract. then if he didnt improve people would complain at lamb for giving a him a bumper long term contract. no win situation for lamb.

sasboro1 Posted on 19/05/2011 10:22
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

does anyone really know the facts on alves or jsut speculating? the price might have been fixed in euros or the price might have been fixed in stirling. does anyone really know for sure. then we got 7m for him which was good business

Buddy Posted on 19/05/2011 10:24
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

I know that the accounts say something along the lines of "exchange rate risk is managed using a range of financial instruments", if that's any help.

captain5 Posted on 19/05/2011 10:27
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

Johnson we got a great deal on, considering he'd done nothing at PL level previously. If we'd signed him on a long term contract previously, Lamb would've got an almighty slagging off and deservedly so.

I agree Alves was overpriced, daft to suggest otherwise; same as it's daft to suggest the currency exchange cock up scenario.

We still got a fee back for him and it did look like there was a player there; just that Gareth couldn't get it consistently out of him.

gerd_muller Posted on 19/05/2011 10:27
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

Stoke signed tuncay for 5m

at same time they also signed Dean Whitehead for 6M

still a good deal you reckon regardless of what we paid?

sasboro1 Posted on 19/05/2011 10:28
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

where is tuncay now? was he a success at stoke? how many goals did he score? wasnt many as a striker was it?

and how did he get 2m for brad jones?

captain5 Posted on 19/05/2011 10:33
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

Whitehead cost 3 million, rising to 5 million on appearances and is still there.

How much of a bad deal do you think Stoke got for Tuncay??

We could've always kept him, as he was on pretty low wages here.

sasboro1 Posted on 19/05/2011 10:35
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

also how successful has Woodgate been at spurs. lost count the number of games he has played

gerd_muller Posted on 19/05/2011 10:36
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

So in summary, you think Boro's general dealings in the transfer market and players contracts have been successful?

captain5 Posted on 19/05/2011 10:38
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

Generally, yes.

It's like saying Wenger has been rubbish in the transfer market because he signed Foxy Boxy and Richard Wright and paid more for Wiltord than he had for Henry.

sasboro1 Posted on 19/05/2011 10:39
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

"So in summary, you think Boro's general dealings in the transfer market and players contracts have been successful?"

...mmmm.... 5 cup finals, 1 trophy, 1 european final... outside the top 4, many other clubs done that?

actually what about how much villa have wasted in the last 2 seasons. over last 15 years or so what about sunderland,newcastle, liverpool, birmingham, west ham, leeds,

Midosparmo Posted on 19/05/2011 10:40
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

90 million of debt suggests the transfer dealings came at a very heavy price.
Were they worth that much debt?

Up to Eindhoven yes. After that pretty poor.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 19/05/2011 10:41
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

'what was our revenue at the time we bought alves? what is chelsea's revenue this season?'

Chelsea revenue was and is the fact they are backed by a billionaire.

at the time we spent 8.15million on one star striker, using the SMAC scouting system our revenue was not backed by a billionaire who could soak up such mistakes.

sasboro1 Posted on 19/05/2011 10:41
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

"90 million of debt suggests the transfer dealings came at a very heavy price.
Were they worth that much debt?"

thats down to gibson isnt it.

after eindhoven thats when we have been starting to pay it all back

captain5 Posted on 19/05/2011 10:42
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

Midos - you wouldn't have had one without an element of the other.


sasboro1 Posted on 19/05/2011 10:45
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

"Chelsea revenue was and is the fact they are backed by a billionaire."

we were/are backed by a multimillionaire who put the money up at the time. if the money is made available then its going to be spent isn't it. but then no other teams waste money on signings. if you went through every club you will see players signed who have been a waste of money.

Midosparmo Posted on 19/05/2011 10:46
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

I know. All I ever said was that it worked at first, but went horribly wrong and thats down to Gibbo certainly, but Lamb is the man on the ground and his opinions & input must have been noted by Gibbo in making the desicions that were hopeless post Eindhoven.

They got it wrong between them.

However the worst I think is past. So peace and love [LOVE]

bear66 Posted on 19/05/2011 10:50
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

"However the worst I think is past."

Comeback Lamb, all is forgiven

Midosparmo Posted on 19/05/2011 10:52
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

My crystal balls in the wash. so I can only assume the worst is past. Large scale player movement in the close season gives an element of doubt.

joseph99 Posted on 19/05/2011 11:02
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

"90 million of debt suggests the transfer dealings came at a very heavy price.
Were they worth that much debt?"

Don't forget Lamb described Smac as being financially reckless. Surely someone has to be accountable for that amount of dosh and was probably not helped by their highly strained relationship. Now on one hand the majority on here defend Keefy-Baby's performance and at the same time happy to have Smac love-ins every few days. Someone screwed up big style prior to Southgate's appointment. You can't have it both ways, well you can if you're delusional.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 19/05/2011 11:04
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

sasboro1 you arent really comparing the money abramavich throws at chelsea to the money our chairman at times has wasted on the club?

chelsea have wasted money relative to what a billionaire can afford to throw at a club.

Middlesbrough have wasted money but that has ended up being at the cost of the club.

sasboro1 Posted on 19/05/2011 11:05
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

surely its down to gibson who was chasing the dream of trophies and europe. he is a successful self made businessman. he would know exactly how the club is being run and how much we were in debt. everything is driven by steve gibson

Midosparmo Posted on 19/05/2011 11:06
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

Former Leeds CEO Peter Ridsdale run up lots of debt in chasing a dream.
The difference is? A carling cup vs Champs league semi?

sasboro1 Posted on 19/05/2011 11:09
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

Raz, its relative. we had a multimillionaire business man encouraging the club to spend and putting money in. if the chairman says its ok to spend then it gets spent. what cost are you talking about? we won a trophy,made 5 cup finals including a european final. we could have not bothered and still be stuck at ayresome park in the championship/league one

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 19/05/2011 11:10
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

exactly the money leeds spent was not relative to the club under ridsdale. Just because a chairman ploughs a club in further debt that does not mean that the club can afford to get into such debt.

gibsons spending power was all based on IF's , spend this and if we get into the premier leauge it will pay off, spend this and if we stay in it will pay off etc.

Midosparmo Posted on 19/05/2011 11:11
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

So on that basis SAS, Ridsdale was right as well to run up the debt?

joseph99 Posted on 19/05/2011 11:12
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

If true, does this suggest that Gibson is a micro-manager?

sasboro1 Posted on 19/05/2011 11:13
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

ridsdale didnt own the club,but werent they on the stock market anmd he was the chairman. jsut like gibson. i'd say gibson was the one who allowed the club to run up the debt. its his club and ownership. no board of directors. what he says goes

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 19/05/2011 11:14
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

because a chairman says it is ok to runs debts up and up its is ok?

do you not see the position the club is in now after gibson sanctioned such spending?

sasboro1 Posted on 19/05/2011 11:17
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

what you arguing about raz, i'm defending lamb by saying it is gibson who has the final say and makes the big decisions. he is the owner,chairman and no board of directors.

Midosparmo Posted on 19/05/2011 11:18
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

Its borrowing based on gambling on good football postion.
Its that sort of attitude with debt that XXXXXXed up the country.

I enjoyed the league cup immensly, one of the best days ever. But when the debt figures emerged you have to wonder if thats the right way to do things?

As long as the debt is repaid then ok. But plenty of clubs never repay the debt and football is downright wrong to run on that basis in my book.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 19/05/2011 11:19
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

i think you think a club going in debt because the owner is sanctioning high level transfers is the same as a billionaire owner allowing some more of his billions to be spent on a big money signing.

one club goes more and more in debt because the owner thinks that the risk will pay off, whereas the other club doesnt get in debt at all as the billionaire owner pays for it out of his many billions.

a millionaire spending 10million isnt the same as a billionaire spending 50million ffs

sasboro1 Posted on 19/05/2011 11:20
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

so who does the responsibilty fall to gibson(owner and chairman) or the chief exec? who is the one who calls the shots and who is the one who carries out the orders?

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 19/05/2011 11:23
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

no you compared our spending power of spending 8.15million to that of a billionaires club spending 50million.


skiprat Posted on 19/05/2011 11:26
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

"You can't have it both ways, well you can if you're delusional. "

This stuck out amongst some of the utter rubbish pouring from certain keyboards.

It seems quite fine to only have the negative way posted about Lamb, so why not his good dealings?

sasboro1 Posted on 19/05/2011 11:26
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

raz, what you on about?

risdale was the chairman at leeds when they hit money problems, gibson is the chairman at boro when we hit money problems. why didnt leeds fans blame their chief exec like we do?

Brick_Tamland Posted on 19/05/2011 11:28
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

Where has the article gone, I wonder?

gerd_muller Posted on 19/05/2011 11:30
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

"so who does the responsibilty fall to gibson(owner and chairman) or the chief exec? who is the one who calls the shots and who is the one who carries out the orders"

Lamb did both - his title reflects that

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 19/05/2011 11:33
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

'i reckon if you go through the top 40 clubs you will find plenty of money wasted by clubs. signing a player is always a risk. look at torres. scoring loads for liverpool and one of the best strikers around, got injured. sold to chelsea for £50m and now looks poor.small clubs probably waste money but obviously its relative to what their income is.
'

sas problem is that you have compared us to chelsea a club along with other big clubs now that can easily soak up wastage due to the ownership they have.

We could never afford such a risk.

sasboro1 Posted on 19/05/2011 11:33
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

gerd_muller,so what did gibson do as a chairman and owner then?

so you reckon lamb was the one who was calling all the shots, can over rule gibson or gibson just wasnt bothered what happened to his club. [:D]

Raz, your getting yorself confused. this thread is about who had the final say at mfc (gibson or lamb) not about over spending.

Midosparmo Posted on 19/05/2011 11:37
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

The issue is SAS trying to let Lamb of the hook by saying its all Gibbos fault.
The point is all the information Gibbo worked on was provided by Lamb. So Lamb must take some(never said all) of the blame re the last few years.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 19/05/2011 11:38
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

sas it has been about overspending, but you have clearly got confused.

Do people think that Lamb gave MFC the money, is that really what you are trying to figure out??

please dont be so thick.

However, if you are asking if it was his job to get the best deal on the best players available, then maybe that was his job and certainly money has not been spent wisely at this club for years now.

sasboro1 Posted on 19/05/2011 11:40
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

raz,let me explain again. gibson is chairman and owner, no board of directors, lamb is chief exec employed by gibson and under gibson. who do you think makes all the big decisions at the club?

the point of this thread was about lamb being the scapegoat for al the bad stuff at the club and gibson takes credit for the good stuff.

Midosparmo Posted on 19/05/2011 11:41
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

Wasnt ALves available for 6 million and Lamb dithered and missed him for that much in the summer. Then we ended up panicking in January and paid 12 million for him?

At least at 6 million we would have got our cash back.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 19/05/2011 11:43
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

sas do you really think that gibson made his decisions based on knowledge that was in no way acquired from Lamb and staff below Lamb?

sasboro1 Posted on 19/05/2011 11:45
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

like i said earlier risdale got the blame at leeds as he was chairman, why is gibson not getting the blame at boro?

Midosparmo Posted on 19/05/2011 11:47
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

It was well known Ridsdale was a very active chairman day to day at leeds.

Whereas Gibbo has said he hasnt been very active at the Boro.

Like I said [pa]


Link: The Gazette

sasboro1 Posted on 19/05/2011 11:49
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

hows he gonna do that when he now lives as a tax exile. [:D]

he was active before you know.

i expect Neil Bausor to be promoted once lamb has him uipto speed

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 19/05/2011 11:49
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

i dont know what the full set up was at leeds.

But i agree if it was similar a lamb figure should have taken a chunk of the blame at leeds.

Do you agree that Lamb should take some of the blame for the financial mess and some of the dud transfers that have happened or do you fully blame gibson?

gerd_muller Posted on 19/05/2011 12:03
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

Lamb obviously made a lot of decisions, financial or otherwise or whats the point in having a chief exec?

Gibson would therefore be fully autocratic, let alone the fact he's hardly been on Teesside the last few years

joseph99 Posted on 19/05/2011 13:12
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

"It seems quite fine to only have the negative way posted about Lamb, so why not his good dealings? "

The subject was referring to the massive debt mountain created, by all means extract something positive from that.

Just because YOU think an opinion is rubbish doesn't make YOUR opinion more valid, unless you suffer from delusions of grandeur. Learn to debate more maturely, there's a good chap.


Razmond_HWDR Posted on 19/05/2011 13:37
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

'i expect Neil Bausor to be promoted once lamb has him uipto speed'

expectations are the mother of all mess ups, as were some of lambs/gibsons transfer dealings.

ProudToComeFromTeesside Posted on 19/05/2011 13:38
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

Bausor's experience is in marketing. Lamb's is in finance/accoutancy, so it wouldn't be replacing like for like.

Midosparmo Posted on 19/05/2011 13:42
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

Gibbo to be more involved with Bauser.

Has the ring of a cost cutting exercise to me.


Muttley Posted on 19/05/2011 13:43
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

"Lamb obviously made a lot of decisions, financial or otherwise or whats the point in having a chief exec?"

Yes, and the point being that neither you nor anyone else on here knows WHICH decisions were made by KL and which by SG. So to blame KL for all the bad stuff is just silly and revisionist.

ProudToComeFromTeesside Posted on 19/05/2011 13:45
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

I have no problem with Bausor getting the job if Gibson thinks he's the right man, but who's going to handle the financial side? Unless Bausor's been taking accountancy qualifications while he's been here, he's hardly equipped for that side of things.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 19/05/2011 13:46
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

so you agree Muttley that it is a shared blame, and a level of blame has to go to Lamb over the many many mistakes?


sasboro1 Posted on 19/05/2011 13:47
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

with gibson in exile, i guess bausor will be the one doing all the transfers coming in. thats if we are going to bring many players in this summer. maybe we wont be spending much

chris_morris_pasty_shop Posted on 19/05/2011 13:50
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

Just thinking outloud but I expect there will be a whole accounting department at the club with the lead accountant expected to step up to the plate and work closer with Gibson and Bauser.


ProudToComeFromTeesside Posted on 19/05/2011 13:51
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

I'm not confident Bausor's up to it to be honest. He handles the admin/marketing side. Could be a bit of a steep learning curve. We might need someone with a bit of experience of being involved in running a football club.

Buddy Posted on 19/05/2011 13:51
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

There's also Karen Nelson.


Link: Echo

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 19/05/2011 13:54
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

i expect over the summer gibson with mowbray will set up a better functional scouting system that wont involve a Keith Lamb figure head over seeing everything.

This will be refreshing.

ProudToComeFromTeesside Posted on 19/05/2011 13:55
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

So, transfer negotiations could be handled by a glorified yuppy marketing manager who probably knows less about football than most on here, and a secretary.

chris_morris_pasty_shop Posted on 19/05/2011 14:00
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

Picking holes in a system that hasn't even been decided upon yet based on nothing but speculation and conjecture.

The mind boggles [rle]

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 19/05/2011 14:00
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

lol ProudToComeFromTeesside i think sas and buddy have shat bricks with those terrible suggestions.

However, i do think that both will help Steve Gibson out on a short term basis until a proper restructure is complete.

ProudToComeFromTeesside Posted on 19/05/2011 14:04
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

Maybe Gibson will have more of a hands-on role, though living in the Channel Islands, that might prove difficult. KL in his role as non-exec director may still have input in a consultative capacity.

sasboro1 Posted on 19/05/2011 14:07
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

now that lamb has left does this mean there is no reason why we cant reach the champions league on a small budget and exceed what we achieved with mr lamb

whatdoyoubench Posted on 19/05/2011 19:51
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

As far as i was aware bausor(sp?) was pretty much confined to non footballing matters, i cant see him taking on the footballing side aswell, especially having no experience in that sort of thing. I agree with the suggestion that gibson will try and be more involved in the day to day than he used to be.

redwurzel Posted on 19/05/2011 20:04
Anthony Vickers on the sacrificial Lamb

I am sure Mogga and Gibbo will sort out footballing issues of Lamb's job and the commercial sales will be Bausor who seems quite articulate to me and has been doing that for several years.

As we know technology has made living in the Channel Islands a shorter distance that it used to be.