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Buddy Posted on 03/05/2011 12:33
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

.


Link: Standard

Buddy Posted on 03/05/2011 12:34
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

And the New Statesman


Link: as well

viv_andersons_nana Posted on 03/05/2011 12:36
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

"Making toast is slightly more complex than eating plain bread but somehow we've all adapted."

[:D]

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 03/05/2011 12:39
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

AV is a terrible idea and i hope one day you realise that.

lets vote for who you want and now lets vote for who you didnt want aswell. ffs what a joke

Buddy Posted on 03/05/2011 12:44
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

I knew there was a reason they held elections on a Thursday.

Oooo Posted on 03/05/2011 12:47
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

Razmund - bit of an odd spin on it there. You vote for who you want in order of how you like them. You dont actually have to vote more than once if you dont want to but often it may be what you want e.g. I vote Labour normally but where I live it is a battle between tories and lib dem so I would like a second vote to give to the lib dems

To be fair most of the time with the current system I think people tend to vote against who they dont want rather than for who they do

SmogOnTheRhine Posted on 03/05/2011 12:49
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

Good piece by Iannuci....

"Do you want politics to change, or stay the same?"

Simple question, simple answer.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 03/05/2011 12:49
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

maybe thats just how it is for no reason at all... why complicate a simple system, which our current voting system currently is?

the two real issues are, firstly it isnt mandatory so doesnt sure a true reflection based on population of adults, second, candidates are never made to promote what they stand for (for example regarding issues in our area we have only had 2 candidates inform us of anything).

oooooo Posted on 03/05/2011 12:51
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

If you don't want your vote to be counted against someone you don't want to vote for, don't put any mark next to their name.

It doesn't get any more XXXXXXing simple, raz.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 03/05/2011 12:53
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

Ooooo if the vote is all about putting the party you want in power why would you need a second vote for lib dem when you want labour in power?

surely AV then just opens this wide open for tactical voting, and that cannot be a good thing

SmogOnTheRhine Posted on 03/05/2011 12:54
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

raz.... I'll make it simpler for you...

1, 2, 3...

What's the next number in the sequence ?

Depending on your answer you'll know how to vote.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 03/05/2011 12:56
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

SmogOnTheRhine is your right to vote the right to have 1 vote for the party you want or the right to have 4 votes or 6 votes or however many votes depending on the number of parties involved?

also if you want a party in power surely giving you one vote is enough?

p.s. do you know what 4 or your local mps all stand for?

speckyget Posted on 03/05/2011 12:57
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

'surely AV then just opens this wide open for tactical voting, and that cannot be a good thing'

Why on earth not? Elections are just as much about who you don't want in power as who you do.

SmogOnTheRhine Posted on 03/05/2011 12:58
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

"p.s. do you know what 4 or your local mps all stand for?"

... on the whole, yes, for themselves.... same as the majority of other politicians, self-interested careerists.

BTW, on puerile arguments... ever backed a horse each way ?

Old_Gregg Posted on 03/05/2011 12:58
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

*Bangs head against wall*

Raz, if you put a preference of 1 to 4 that doesn't mean you are voting 4 times.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 03/05/2011 13:00
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

specky i agree but the most honest way of getting the party you want is by having one vote and using that on the party you want and not the party you do not want.

we should not allow more corruption in politics and AV allows that.

speckyget Posted on 03/05/2011 13:01
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

You'll have to explain that one raz.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 03/05/2011 13:02
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

'... on the whole, yes, for themselves.... same as the majority of other politicians, self-interested careerists.'

says a lot for your argument in this case.

Old_Gregg Posted on 03/05/2011 13:02
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

"


p.s. do you know what 4 or your local mps all stand for?"

You are defeating your own argument here, under AV your local candidates (not MP's by the way) will have to work a lot harder to let you know what they stand for. If they don't, they won't get a ranking in people's order of preference.

SmogOnTheTees Posted on 03/05/2011 13:03
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

It will always boil down to being between Labour and the Tories. Last time some of the Lib Dem voters wanted tories in, some labour. The AV gives those who use their vote for Lib Dem or Monster Raving or Green party to have a say where their true vote lies. That way every voter in the end uses their vote instead of wasting it. In a country where we have so many alternative parties we need this system to stop the waste of votes.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 03/05/2011 13:04
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

Old_Gregg that is utter rubbish, you are suggesting that people will not vote and have never voted for a party without knowing exactly what they stand for locally.

Labour Lib Dem and Torys will still continue to take the majority of votes leaving the rest further behind.

deganya Posted on 03/05/2011 13:07
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

RAZ.... you might want to vote conservative, but want you don't want to see is the spineless lib dems get in so you could vote a second preference of Ukip or Labour, your conservative vote keeps getting counted and your Ukip votes do too until the lib dems are the least popular and excluded from the count.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 03/05/2011 13:08
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

SmogOnTheTees i dont think you understand the current system, their true vote lies on the party they vote for, if they vote for the party they do not believe in then that is their own error, if they do not vote at all then again that is their own error

Old_Gregg Posted on 03/05/2011 13:09
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

"In a country where we have so many alternative parties we need this system to stop the waste of votes"

Absolutely spot on. Our outdated FPTP system is a relic from the days when we had a two party system, and is totally unsuitable for the modern era of multiple candidates to choose from.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 03/05/2011 13:10
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

deganya you dont need to explain to me how AV allows tactical voting.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 03/05/2011 13:12
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

Old_Gregg are you suggesting that every system that has more than two candidates taking part has to use this system and one vote by one person taking part is no longer good enough?

Old_Gregg Posted on 03/05/2011 13:19
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

Raz - you are aware that no other country in Europe uses FPTP apart from us, aren't you?

deganya Posted on 03/05/2011 13:20
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

raz.. your quote 'that is utter rubbish, you are suggesting that people will not vote and have never voted for a party without knowing exactly what they stand for locally.'

Well the people of Middlesbrough vote for Stuart Bell MP, and wouldn't have a clue what he stood for locally. In fact most of them wouldn't have a clue what he stood for nationally either. How many of those voters knew that Mr Bell was probably the most vocal in defending the MP's during the expenses scandal? They voted him in because its a safe Labour seat, not because they liked his views on local issues !

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 03/05/2011 13:26
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

'under AV your local candidates (not MP's by the way) will have to work a lot harder to let you know what they stand for. If they don't, they won't get a ranking in people's order of preference.'

deganya that was my point, the suggestion that people will once AV comes into play only votes for people they know all the detail about is utter rubbish... remember under AV you can still vote just the once if you want to. It wont MAKE candidates make more effort, might make the big 3 candidates put less effort in, and once the smaller candidates realise they have even less chance they wont bother either.

Midosparmo Posted on 03/05/2011 13:28
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

I find it hard enough to find one coont worth voting for, never mind four [V]

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 03/05/2011 13:38
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

'Raz - you are aware that no other country in Europe uses FPTP apart from us, aren't you?'

no i am proper stupid me like, enlighten me, how many of them use this AV system?

and thanks for the info.

jonniovdaboro Posted on 03/05/2011 13:54
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

Look wether you agree with AV or not this may be our only chance for another generation or two to reform a dated voting system, I think a candidate gettinvg a seat with 25 / 30 % of the vote is not good enough in my opinion a yes vote will be a big step towards getting a more demacratic system in place.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 03/05/2011 13:58
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

but if that 30% out of say 6 candidates is the majority then they win, rather than give some people a 2nd chance to vote just to make the numbers up (using their 2nd vote).

everyone has had a chance to use their one vote, and the outcome out of 6 candidates is that one won with 30%, as that is the majority.

once you get more than 3 candidates it is rare that the majority in any contest is won by 50% or more, that would suggest the other candidates were just there to make up the numbers and never good enough.

superstu Posted on 03/05/2011 14:03
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

Majority means more than 50% Raz. Gaining ~30% under FPTP may well give you the greatest proportion of votes but you still don't have a majority.

Starbuck Posted on 03/05/2011 14:15
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

AV will not stop Stuart Bell getting in [|)]

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 03/05/2011 14:17
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

majority vote

Definition
noun
a decision which represents the wishes of the largest group as shown by a vote

oooooo Posted on 03/05/2011 14:23
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

I don't know why you are arguing with raz. He's borderline mentally disabled.

Proctors_Perm Posted on 03/05/2011 14:31
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

If you think that having a majority of the vote (51%) is a requirement for AV then you are wrong.

A candidate can be successful under av without attaining 51%, and it narks me when people claim the opposite.

I'm voting no, as I cannot abide the shifting idea in this country that we dislike outright winning. I'm voting for a winner, 15%, 30% whatever, I couldn't give a monkeys. I respect the winner of an election who polls the most votes.

What I would be in favour of, is creating boundaries which equalise the voting numbers.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 03/05/2011 14:38
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

'What I would be in favour of, is creating boundaries which equalise the voting numbers.'

agreed a more constructive way at looking at this is required rather than using a system which can easily be manipulated for tactial gain and which isnt widely used across the world (3 countries i think use it)

oooooo Posted on 03/05/2011 14:39
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

Proctor, you have to get over 50% of the vote in AV.

jonniovdaboro Posted on 03/05/2011 14:42
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

Raz how can you justify the current system lib dems got what 15% of the overall vote yet the number of seats does not represent this. Now I know AV will still not resolve this but its a stepping stone to proportional representation, the current system is more or less a medievil system and needs reform we need to say yes to this for any chance of this happening or we will be stuck with FPTP for another 200 years

jonniovdaboro Posted on 03/05/2011 14:43
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

Oh and for the record AV is used in this country Cameron got his job through a AV vote

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 03/05/2011 14:49
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

AV stops when one candidate cannot be overtaken by any other candidate, so in theory the winning candidate could get less than 50% under AV.

The other problem with the AV over 50% vote wins is that if it goes 4 rounds then that vote could in the main be made up of 2nd and 3rd votes and not show a true picture of the electoral representatives.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 03/05/2011 14:51
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

jonniovdaboro its also how Red Ed the labour leader got his job, a very complicated process which i think with the torys tooks days and days to complete.

carltonkid Posted on 03/05/2011 14:51
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

can anybody explain to me if av voting is worse than fptp why do MP's use the av system to elect the speaker of the common's

jonniovdaboro Posted on 03/05/2011 14:53
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

It is better than 1st past the post, it will ensure the winner has a higher share of the votes the likelyhood of a second or 3rd placed candidate after the 1st round of voting winning is minimal at best, I suggest you stop getting taken in by propagander and look at the bigger picturte you want reform wether you think this system is right or not you should vote yes because change will open the door for more change hyou vote no and that ship leaves port and will not return for a long time.

jonniovdaboro Posted on 03/05/2011 14:55
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

it doesnt take days and days, you also contrary to what the Tories say do not need a counting machine, does it take Australia days and days to count there votes ?

superstu Posted on 03/05/2011 14:55
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

I don't particularly care for AV. I'm not very keen on FPTP. Neither of them are very good and it won't make a great deal of difference to the actual governance of the country whatever happens in the referendum. And yet, time after time I find myself drawn in to the debate here and elsewhere by the absolutely moronical arguments being put forth. Electoral reform isn't a new idea. People have debated the best way for a population to elect leaders for hundreds of years. The work has already been done for you. Repeating somebody elses good argument is much better than making up your own stupid, irrelevent additions.

Raz, no matter how much you want to, you can't change the meaning of the word majority. I'm sorry you're upset at what the word majority means. That's just what it means.

Proctors Perm I have no idea what you are on about. The shifting idea in this country that we dislike outright winning? Please give us 1 example to back up that nonsense.

HotshotMFC Posted on 03/05/2011 14:57
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

AV is used by only Papua NG,Fiji and Australia. 2 of these are considering scrapping it.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 03/05/2011 14:59
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

carltonkid

Each member may nominate no more than one candidate when voting for a new speaker, and it isnt the whole house who get to vote but just 12 selected members.

only the 50% majority is correct in that voting process.

Buddy Posted on 03/05/2011 15:00
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

oooooo - it could be less than 50% of the total vote, if some people expressed fewer preferences than the number of rounds of counting.

i.e. if all your preferences were "out" by the time of the last count, your ballot would not be in the count at all, and the winning candidate's 50% would be "of the papers counted in this round" not "of the total votes cast in the election".

jonniovdaboro Posted on 03/05/2011 15:00
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

"AV is used by only Papua NG,Fiji and Australia. 2 of these are considering scrapping it."

Wrong its used world wide in many areas of life even leadership votes in this country use it as its often the only way you can get a "majority" vote

Buddy Posted on 03/05/2011 15:04
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

RAZ - stop making stuff up.


Link: 593 votes in Speaker election

oooooo Posted on 03/05/2011 15:05
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

Cameron was elected leader using AV.

superstu Posted on 03/05/2011 15:07
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

HotshotMFC. So chuffing what? Who cares? MMP is pretty much only used by Germany and Canada. Does that make it a bad system? The number of other countries using a voting system has no bearing on how well it works.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 03/05/2011 15:08
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

Buddy is voting for the speaker the same as the AV system we are voting for or against?


Razmond_HWDR Posted on 03/05/2011 15:09
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

superstu but does AV work well?

why did australia make voting mandatory?

Buddy Posted on 03/05/2011 15:11
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

More or less, with the exception that MPs get to vote again every round rather than expressing their preferences all at once, so conceivably those preferences could change in between rounds. The maths is the same though.

Where did you get the idea that only twelve people vote on a new Speaker?

Buddy Posted on 03/05/2011 15:12
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

"MMP is pretty much only used by Germany and Canada"

And Boro. Worse luck. [|)]

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 03/05/2011 15:15
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

so you think putting your preferences in order and then using some 2nd votes and maybe some 3rd votes is the same as voting and then eliminating 1 or 2 and then voting all again (when like you say opinions could change between rounds) ?

Buddy Posted on 03/05/2011 15:18
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

Yes I do.

jonniovdaboro Posted on 03/05/2011 15:22
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

there is no rounds of voting you vote once put one vote or 2 or more in order of preference and thats it where you get this idea we go back to the polling stations is beyond me. The arguments from the NO camp from the poloticians to the idiots on this board is pathetic

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 03/05/2011 15:22
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

that explains a lot.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 03/05/2011 15:24
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

jonniovdaboro

agreed buddy is a crazy animal for trying to comapare the two systems.

one system you get to vote once for the one you want, the other you get to votes in order of preference

Buddy Posted on 03/05/2011 15:29
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

What disappoints me about you RAZ, is that you're actually one of the more intelligent contributors to the board, and if you put your mind to contributing, rather than contradicting for the sake of it, it would be so much better.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 03/05/2011 15:34
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

i'll take that as an admittance to being very wrong on the set up and meaning regarding long term affects AV could profoundly create from its being.

as someone once said 'a little change goes a long way'

however, we want the little change to go a long way in the right direction, and this certainly does not.

SmogOnTheRhine Posted on 03/05/2011 15:37
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

Arguing is futile.

Everyone is pretty much entrenched.

Retard and/or Tory = No
All the rest that can be @rsed = Yes

Proctors_Perm Posted on 03/05/2011 16:45
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

oooooo, you don't in the instance that a large number of the electorate don't preference their 3rd/4th choices, I did have a numerical example somewhere but it evades me.

Plus I'm neither a retard or a tory ( i have in fact voted labour all my life, and do not live in a labour stronghold) and I'm still unconvinced by the av argument.

It seems odd to me that people can become angered by a change to the voting system that will have minimal effect on the outcome of an election, yet blithely accept crippling changes to the higher education system

Chris_From_Pitchside Posted on 03/05/2011 16:50
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

I'm voting no.

I don't have time to read this thread to understand AV but for me voting for the side you want to win is the best way of doing it.

Person with the most votes wins.

Done.

Old_Gregg Posted on 03/05/2011 16:53
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

"I don't have time to read this thread to understand AV"

Pretty much sums up the average NO voter.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 03/05/2011 16:54
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

'Retard and/or Tory = No'

'Pretty much sums up the average NO voter.'

and those quotes sum up the average Yes voter then i guess.

Chris_From_Pitchside Posted on 03/05/2011 16:54
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

Just making sure you know I was being sarcastic.

Still voting no though.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 03/05/2011 16:55
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

'Person with the most votes wins.'

its the best way [^]

E-PRIME Posted on 03/05/2011 17:03
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

I just feel that someone winning a seat as an mp with 30% of the vote does not have to take the 70% that didn't vote for them into account at all.

With AV I feel that the candidates have to make themselves more broadly appealing.

As the majority of people are actually centre-left I (again) feel that it will bring all of politics more towards centre left.

click the link to find out why AV is better.

It's a really good analogy if you take my point about the majority of us wanting something centre-left.

Please click the link if you are planning on voting no. It's just and amusing chart, no reading required.

Click the link dammit!


Link: anyone for a beer?

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 03/05/2011 17:06
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

i think you are kidding yourself if you think it will stop the top 3 parties from being the top 3 parties and not create more of a divide between the top 3 and the rest.

you have to ask; yourself why is this AV system we are either voting for or against so rarely used throughout the worl when determining who will govern a country?

E-PRIME Posted on 03/05/2011 17:11
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

RAZ - stop being a fool.

Does the majority of the populous in the non AV countries have a government representing the style of politics they want? No.

You can't hold the rest of the world up as the paradigm of utopia when the rest of the world so obviously fecked up!!

click my link above.

Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 03/05/2011 17:11
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

Only PR will benefit the rest, that's what should be used for selecting the other house. Not the arse of s system we have now.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 03/05/2011 17:12
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

i dont know the views of the rest of the world, but it would seem you do. Australia had to enforce AV upon its people, that says something.

oooooo Posted on 03/05/2011 17:13
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

"It seems odd to me that people can become angered by a change to the voting system that will have minimal effect on the outcome of an election, yet blithely accept crippling changes to the higher education system"

That's a fairly strange argument. I don't think AV will make much difference at all, I just don't want to send a message to the politicians to "carry on as before". The AV makes little difference argument also makes a mockery of the No campaign which would have you believe it will end civilisation as we know it.

Finally, I'm against the 'reforms' to higher education and all for AV. I'm not sure why you consider those groups as mutually exclusive.

E-PRIME Posted on 03/05/2011 17:14
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

raz -Argumentative pseudo troll.

Did you click the link?

Proctors_Perm Posted on 03/05/2011 17:29
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

oooooo I accept your point, how about commenting on mine regarding not needing 5o.1% to achieve a victory under the av system. Did you say that I was wrong on that point? If so perhaps do some research before casting your vote

oooooo Posted on 03/05/2011 17:41
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

I seem what you mean, but you can interpret what you said in two ways. And I think just stating that you do not need 50% is bordering on misleading.

You need 50% of the votes in each round. If one 'loser' is removed and it is then recounted, you still need 50% of the votes in that round. Is it 50% of the total vote? Probably not in most circumstances but the people who have their vote eliminated chose not to state a 2nd/3rd/4th preference and picked the loser.

north_east_invader Posted on 03/05/2011 18:07
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

"Is it 50% of the total vote? Probably not in most circumstances"

No, but it is 50% of the total vote for the round in which it occurs, the majority of voters will be included in this due to high vote attracting parties not being discarded ... this makes the drop, if any, relatively marginal whilst still achieving a popular consensus.


Link: Pub, or Coffee ?

two_banks_of_four Posted on 03/05/2011 18:20
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

From memory i think it was about 40% of seats in some Scottish Elections (councils maybe) that use AV were decided with less than the 50% majority of total votes cast.


north_east_invader Posted on 03/05/2011 19:44
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

Try this one


Link: simple flow chart

SidSnot Posted on 03/05/2011 19:57
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

I was in the "no" camp, but I've changed my mind. This is not the electoral change I would want, but voting "no" will give politicians the mandate to say that a majority are happy with the present system, which I disagree with. Some of Thatcher and Blair's size of majorities given their share of the vote were a disgrace. In 97 Blair got 63% of seats with 43% of the vote.

Eddie_Catflap Posted on 03/05/2011 20:49
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

I'm voting yes. It's a fairer, more democratic system. Simple as that.

Old_Gregg Posted on 03/05/2011 20:52
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

"I'm voting yes. It's a fairer, more democratic system. Simple as that."

Spot on. Not to mention the fact that it's a stepping stone towards an even better system such as AV+.

gravyboat Posted on 03/05/2011 20:52
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

This^^

100Rod100 Posted on 03/05/2011 22:26
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

if i wasnt in australai and could vote i'd be voting no.

fairer more democratic system? how?

in a 3 party constituency, the labour/tory votes go against each other, with lib dems at no2; all it does is favour them - no wonder they want it as theyve shafted themselves with this coalition.

the whole 'retard' argument for voting no is a bit rich too isnt it. i understand the principles of AV, but because i dont think its a good idea i am now a retard [rle]

however the general public as a whole probably do not understand what AV is - but to call them retarded is bit rich.

Old_Gregg Posted on 03/05/2011 23:40
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

That's the point though, there are a lot more than 3 parties people may want to vote for - Green, UKIP, Socialist, Independent candidates etc...

Under the current system people feel unable to vote for these parties as it would be a wasted vote, under AV they can vote for their first choice.

E-PRIME Posted on 04/05/2011 08:24
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

The way I see it, as I mentioned above, is that if the majority of voters want a centre left government the whole of politics will be dragged centre left (coalition or not, doesn't matter). If (god forbid) the majority of voters want something more right wing then politics will be drawn that way.

#yestoAV

scaramouche Posted on 04/05/2011 08:28
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

'the whole 'retard' argument for voting no is a bit rich too isnt it. i understand the principles of AV, but because i dont think its a good idea i am now a retard'

only retards call people retards[rle]

100Rod100 Posted on 04/05/2011 08:36
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

a romantic notion old gregg. but in reality the votes cast on the smaller parties will hardly count; it will be their 2nd choices that matter, as in reality there isnt much support for the greens and they'll struggle to reach the %50.

north_east_invader Posted on 04/05/2011 08:42
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

From what I can gather, it basically boils down to this choice :

Do you think an MP should be returned to parliament on

A) A simple majority (Then vote no)
B) An overall majority (Then vote yes)

100Rod100 Posted on 04/05/2011 08:48
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

but it isnt a 'true' overall majority really is it.

its going to end up being made of peoples second choices and so on. an absolute joke.

we definitely need political/electoral reform, bu i dont see the benefit of AV to be honest.

others do. horses for courses.

north_east_invader Posted on 04/05/2011 08:53
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

Its not second "choices" as such, its the next round of voting when their preferred candidate has been eliminated.

I would say though if you believe we need political reform, but vote no, you will be (whether that is your intention or not) providing them with a mandate to say the status quo is fine and that will be the last shot we get.

I don't agree with voting change for changes sake, I guess its whether you believe AV would be fundamentally bad, and I just can't see that argument at all.

I don't think AV is the best, but its a /slight/ improvement on what we have.

SmogOnTheRhine Posted on 04/05/2011 08:56
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

Rod...."we definitely need political/electoral reform, bu i dont see the benefit of AV to be honest."

The electoral reform you say we need will never happen without first AV... a No vote and we're stuck with the status quo for a generation at least.

If you're happy with the state of the current electoral system - Vote No
If you're unhappy - Vote Yes

Don't even think about the finer points.

100Rod100 Posted on 04/05/2011 09:04
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

"Its not second "choices" as such, its the next round of voting when their preferred candidate has been eliminated" - so after their preferred candidate is eliminated it goes to the second round of voting; their vote gets given to another candidate. this continues until someone gets the required %50 majority.

FPTP may not be the solution, but I personally believe it to be a better system than AV.

there is reform needed - but i dont like change for changes sake - and thats what i believe this is.



north_east_invader Posted on 04/05/2011 09:35
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

"so after their preferred candidate is eliminated it goes to the second round of voting; their vote gets given to another candidate."

Everyone votes again though. Its not just them that do. Its just people whose first choice remains still vote for their first choice.

I can honestly see (and agree) with the fact it isn't the best system. I just cannot see why anyone thinks it isn't even a slight imrpovement.

Give me PR any day, but I'll take small steps if I have to rather than giving a vote that says "hey I love things just the way they are".

100Rod100 Posted on 04/05/2011 09:40
Armando Iannucci on the referendum


not sure how that would work like lol.

so your first choice is elimated, so you have to vote for another choice - youre second best?

thats just plain silly. you either like one parties or not, otherwise youre settling for second best. if you liked the other party then just vote for them - with your first vote, not the second lol

SmogOnTheRhine Posted on 04/05/2011 09:42
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

Just one read of the donors to the No campaign would make my mind up....

What are these people afraid of ?

Lord Sainsbury donated 100,000 while Tory peer Lord Wolfson, the boss of clothing chain Next, gave 25,000.

Tory donor Jonathan Wood, a former star UBS trader who founded the hedge fund SRM Global, gave 50,000 to the NOtoAV campaign. He was the biggest shareholder in Northern Rock when it collapsed and he later tried to sue the government over its handling of the bank's nationalisation. He described the government's taking of controlling stakes in Lloyds and Royal Bank of Scotland as "theft".

A similar contribution to the campaign was made by Adrian Beecroft, a well-known figure in the venture capital industry. One of the three founders of private equity firm Apax Partners, he now chairs Dawn Capital and owns four Aston Martins.

Another 50,000 came from Alex Knaster, a Russian financier, who set up London-based Pamplona Capital Management with $1bn to help Russian firms invest overseas.

The former chief executive of Alfa Bank, Russia's largest private commercial bank, was part of a group of Russian investors who brokered a truce between BP and its partners in the TNK-BP joint venture in 2008.

Stockbroking and corporate finance group Shore Capital has given 25,000 to the campaign while hedge fund Odey Asset Management Group, founded by Crispin Odey in 1991, has donated 20,000. Odey, a former Barings banker, is one of London's leading hedge fund managers who awarded himself a 28m bonus in 2008 after predicting that the banks would fall and shorting UK bank stocks.

He previously found himself on the losing side when the US Federal Reserve unexpectedly lifted interest rates in 1994.

Odey is closely involved with the Conservatives and is married to Nichola Pease, who belongs to one of the Barclays founding families and is the deputy chairman of private wealth group JO Hambro. Like many hedge funders, he has threatened to relocate to avoid the 50% tax rate.

Tory donor David Mayhew, the former chairman of Cazenove - known as the Queen's stockbroker, which was taken over by JP Morgan in 2001 gave 30,000 to the NOtoAV campaign.

Another donor, with 10,000, is Nick Finegold, who pocketed some 10m last year when he sold his share-dealing brokerage Execution Noble to Banco Espirito Santo de Investimento and became a vice-chairman of the Portuguese investment bank.

A similar contribution came from property developer Terence Cole, who founded Marcol with Mark Steinberg in 1976 and built it into a multibillion euro international property business.

Peter Hargreaves, co-founder of the financial services firm Hargreaves Lansdown, and the former Barclays finance director Naguib Kheraj also donated 10,000 each.


Link: No Campaign Donors

zaphod Posted on 04/05/2011 09:48
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

I'll be voting Yes, though AV isn't a lot better than FPTP. At least it enables people to vote for what they actually want, instead of just voting to keep one or other of the big parties out. I'm fed up of candidates campaigning on "vote for me, cos so&so can't win here".

100Rod100 Posted on 04/05/2011 09:53
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

you still vote for what you want under FPTP.

if that was a 'minority' party under AV they'd end up last and your vote getting added to the others. so youre not actually voting for what you want. same as what would happen under FPTP only that you dont get another vote to cast for your seconf best or perceived lesser of the 2 or 3 evils that are left.


SmogOnTheRhine Posted on 04/05/2011 09:55
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

So, if you think those donors I mentioned above represent the same interests as you, please vote No.

Buddy Posted on 04/05/2011 09:56
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

But more people would give their first preference vote to their first preference, rather than the least bad "in with a chance" candidate. Hence smaller parties might be able to demonstrate wider latent support than was the case under FPTP, and argue for further reform on that basis.

zaphod Posted on 04/05/2011 09:59
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

Rod, many people don't vote for what they want under FPTP. They vote to keep the "other lot" out. There has been a big rise in tactical voting over recent decades for that reason. A democracy should facilitate voting for what they actually want, even if it's the benighted UKIP & BNP.

E-PRIME Posted on 04/05/2011 10:07
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

100rod100 if you genuinely laughed out loud "lol" at your own post a few posts up there[rle] then you genuinely need to lay off the LSD.

100Rod100 Posted on 04/05/2011 11:26
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

the support for the smaller parties will be whittled out after the 1st round of voting - and then passed on to the others.

so their votes end up helping another party they never really wanted anyways.


Buddy Posted on 04/05/2011 11:36
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

But the first preferences will be counted and recorded.

Example for you: at the last General Election, the party closest to my views was the Green Party. The chance of a Green candidate being elected in my constituency was roughly equivalent to Elvis Presley beating Ray Mallon to become Mayor of Middlesbrough.

I didn't particularly want to vote for the incumbent Conservative, because of the three main parties the Conservative manifesto was the one containing the least stuff I agreed with.

I didn't want to vote for the next most likely, the Labour candidate, because thirteen years of a Labour government had given us some pretty dodgy wars and a scary amount of state interference in walking down the street.

In the end I voted for the Liberal Democrat. This was not the candidate I wanted, but was probably my second preference. That fact is not recorded anywhere - just that I voted Lib Dem.

How many millions more are like me? Not necessarily wanting to vote Green, but UKIP, or BNP, or Monster Raving Loony, or Marton Shops Fix The Bloody Car Park Party, but knowing it's utterly pointless because nobody will notice?

Under AV, I would have been able to vote for the Green candidate and have that vote counted and recorded. If there ARE loads more like me, the smaller parties will surely take a higher share of first preference votes than they would FPTP votes, and be able to argue for greater proportionality.

100Rod100 Posted on 04/05/2011 11:41
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

so what you are saying is you like it because the fact that you voted for the green party will be recorded, even though there is more chance of meeting elvis of them getting in?

by the sound of your argument youre hoping that by having AV coming then some sort of further magical reform will come along.

if there is such a thing then describe it?

superstu Posted on 04/05/2011 11:46
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

Nothing magic needed you've used the words to describe it yourself. "Further reform".

100Rod100 Posted on 04/05/2011 11:50
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

so AV is change for changes sake, in the vain hope theyll be another referendum in the next 300 years or so?

i just dont really see the positives in it. may be theres a better system out there to bring in?

Atticus Posted on 04/05/2011 11:56
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

That picture about the beer and coffee..

The question is clearly "where shall we go to drink tonight?" so even though more people want to go for a beer, we still haven't decided which pub to go to, since The Red Lion, The Castle and the Queen's Head all have the same number of votes. If this was a simple show of hands between ten friends, the coffee shop would have won because it has the majority of votes out of the options presented. If the question was "Should we go to the pub or the coffee shop?" then 7 would have voted pub and we'd be going there.

AV is not fairer, because even though I might have wanted to go for a beer, I didn't want to go to The Castle so it STILL didn't get my vote.

There will still be wasted votes and there will still be candidates which the majority of the constituency didn't give preference to.

AV and FPTP are the very worst voting systems.

north_east_invader Posted on 04/05/2011 12:02
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

"AV is not fairer, because even though I might have wanted to go for a beer, I didn't want to go to The Castle so it STILL didn't get my vote."

So, you are happy to go for coffee, even though you really want a beer ? This could obviously be reflected in your choices if this were the case.

"AV and FPTP are the very worst voting systems."

I don't disagree, the question is whether AV offers an improvement, EVEN if its slight.

"may be theres a better system out there to bring in?"

Yes, there are. And voting No is the sure fire way to ensure we never get a chance for them.

E-PRIME Posted on 04/05/2011 12:05
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

Atticus, if you replace the words beer with "a centre left party" and coffee with "a centre right party" you can see that 70% wanted centre left but everyone got centre right instead.

It's fairly clear on those terms why AV is better at representing the broader views of the voters.

Atticus Posted on 04/05/2011 12:09
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

I don't think the question on the beer and coffee demonstration accurately portrays what would happen in an AV election. The question is about where we drink, not what we drink. I could have a coffee at a pub.

In the question "where shall we drink?", more people voted for the coffee shop than any other drinking establishment on the list. It won, fair and square.

north_east_invader Posted on 04/05/2011 12:58
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

"I don't think the question on the beer and coffee demonstration accurately portrays what would happen in an AV election. The question is about where we drink, not what we drink. I could have a coffee at a pub."

Okay, we're into splitting hairs now. Its an example and in this example its assumed that in the pub we will drink beer and in the cafe we will drink coffee. Its to give you an idea about why AV may be more appealing as FPTP will in many cases deliver a result that the actual overall majority didn't want.

"In the question "where shall we drink?", more people voted for the coffee shop than any other drinking establishment on the list. It won, fair and square."

This is the crux of the matter isn't it. If you genuinely believe that it won, then vote No.

This goes back to the question :

Do you feel that to return an MP to parliament they must achieve a simple majority (vote no) or an overall majority (vote yes).

two_banks_of_four Posted on 04/05/2011 13:16
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

I thought, after years of been told on here and in other similarly well informed places that New Labour were a to the right of the lib dems, tories in disguise, surely making them a centre right party. Now as the argument suits they were a centre left party along with the lib dems, who surely were previoulsy at some stage in the middle. Nick Clegg definatley moved the lib dems to the right in an attempt to gain more electoral succes.

Intrestingly for the 'vote AV get something better' argument; Red Ed confimred this morning on the Today programme that he wanted AV and nothing else ie not a change to somethig that is actually fairer. Labour have as much, if not more of a vested intrest in the current system than the tories.

AV doesn't guarantee an overall majority as has been pointed out on here on numerous occasions.

Atticus Posted on 04/05/2011 13:30
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

It's not about genuinely believing.

The question is not pub or not pub. It is which establishment specifically, therefore which candidate, not which party or vague ideology.

If we are taking the coffee shop to be the centre right, and the pubsto be centre left, then the number of centre left candidates in this question split the vote of the electorate. No one of them was electable over the single centre right candidate, and therefore the centre right coffee shop won.

If the pub ideology wanted to win in this area, they should have consolidated their options into one or two pubs. There were 4 pub candidates and they split the votes because they are all different options.


E-PRIME Posted on 04/05/2011 13:38
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

Atticus, you've demonstrated why FPTP works well in a race with only two horses. Which we don't have.

north_east_invader Posted on 04/05/2011 13:38
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

Atticus : so in effect you are happier with a 2, or at a push 3 party system ?

The point of AV is it gives the opportunity for that "consolidation" to happen, without having to restrict choice or people wanting to stand, or campaign.

Again back to the point, you clearly believe a simply majority is sufficient to return an MP to represent a constituency. I believe an overall majority would return a candidate with a greater mandate from the people who they represent.

Atticus Posted on 04/05/2011 13:47
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

No I'm not saying that. I'm saying that I am happier with a system that would allow for a much more diverse representation of parties in the H of C, like STV or Party List.

I don't believe a simple majority is sufficient. I believe that this demonstration doesn't tell us anything about AV or FPTP, both of which I vehemently oppose as political systems.

north_east_invader Posted on 04/05/2011 13:59
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

So would I. If you vote no though you won't ever get it. I don't particularly like that much either ... but its true.

Atticus Posted on 04/05/2011 14:02
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

I'm not voting either way at the minute.

I don't see the point of voting for the sake of it. If these are my choices, I do not care.

north_east_invader Posted on 04/05/2011 14:05
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

It is of course your choice and right. However it depends how much you really want reform, but by not voting you're telling Westminster you don't care at all .. and if you don't, then fair enough.

two_banks_of_four Posted on 04/05/2011 14:10
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

Michael White in today's Guardian. A balanced appraisal, even if you don't agree with his conclusion.


Link: A 'thick tory' writes

100Rod100 Posted on 04/05/2011 20:31
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

"It is of course your choice and right. However it depends how much you really want reform, but by not voting you're telling Westminster you don't care at all .. and if you don't, then fair enough"

i think we can all agree that voting reform is needed - but what exactly?

the referendum should be then "does the british electoral system require reform" and not "yes/no to AV"

to simply vote for voting sake is ridiculous, its almost like voting for your second choice....

here in australia i dont know anyone that like the system - bar the poiliticians. also you dont actually have to score all the other candidates anyways - so what really is the point?

it is likely that to get the overall majority of %50 to win that this will come from successive rounds of vote counting; this isnt really a true majority as it is made up of second choices, the first round may indicate a majority of %35 - that is the true majority IMO - the rest is a load of bullsh1t second/third choices to get to %50.

north_east_invader Posted on 04/05/2011 20:55
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

There are all sorts of questions it could be, ones that everyone would prefer, but we can only debate the question on the table.

I would agree, voting for votings sake IS ridiculous.

It is a difference between a simple majority or an overall majority. And under AV it is an overall majority in whichever round it occurs.

I think PR is what we should have, but I think an overall majority is preferable to a simple majority. I don't think AV detriments our system and maybe marginally improves it and I want to ensure further reform isn't wiped off the table for the rest of our lifetimes.

100Rod100 Posted on 04/05/2011 22:39
Armando Iannucci on the referendum

in reality it is only an overall majority if the win occurs in the first round; the addition of other votes from subsequent rounds doesnt make it a proper overall majority - it only happens due to peoples second choices getting added. ridiculous.

may be the referendum should be "do the voting public want electoral reform" no yes or no to AV.

then have the various types of voting presented unbiased and not by the parties that stand to gain from different voting systems, as thats where the problem lies. people vote on the perception of the candidate not the polices.