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oooooo Posted on 09/03/2011 11:10
If you are not religious...

...


Link: for god's sake say so

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 09/03/2011 11:12
If you are not religious...

whats the issue?

Bernie_is_banned Posted on 09/03/2011 11:14
If you are not religious...

More attempts to reduce Christianity by the left, by the looks of it.

oooooo Posted on 09/03/2011 11:15
If you are not religious...

I swear you too are bots. Raz asking a question and bernie talking utter XXXXXXing sh1t.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 09/03/2011 11:16
If you are not religious...

people are not allowed to answer the census how they want now?

or even worse you are suggesting when they answer it its all lies?

speckyget Posted on 09/03/2011 11:17
If you are not religious...

Does Seventh Day Wintervalism count as a religion?

Rayman Posted on 09/03/2011 11:18
If you are not religious...

Seems a good campaign to me.

Lefty Posted on 09/03/2011 11:19
If you are not religious...

Are you a Christian, Bernie?

boksic Posted on 09/03/2011 11:21
If you are not religious...

FAO stupid people - puttign "Jedi" does not make it an official or "recongnised" religion, despite all those spam e mails you have received (I bet there is a facbook "campaign" too but I can't bear to look).

oooooo Posted on 09/03/2011 11:21
If you are not religious...

"people are not allowed to answer the census how they want now?

or even worse you are suggesting when they answer it its all lies?"

Two more questions. What the hell are you banging on about? Read the link, it's pretty clear.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 09/03/2011 11:26
If you are not religious...

it suggest that they know that people put Christian when they might not be.

Do they mean by this that a Christian has to go to church every sunday otherwise the must put down No Religion.

Like i said it is trying to tell people who to answer, and govern some influence.

If people are allowed to answer how they want then why do we need this?

petedreadnought Posted on 09/03/2011 11:29
If you are not religious...

Raz, are you a bit simple?

Clockweights Posted on 09/03/2011 11:31
If you are not religious...

I'm a member of the Westboro Baptist church.

GOD HATES FAGS

zaphod Posted on 09/03/2011 11:40
If you are not religious...

What a complete waste of money that campaign is. There are lots of better uses the money could have been put to.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 09/03/2011 11:42
If you are not religious...

petedreadnought why do you ask?

oooooo Posted on 09/03/2011 11:43
If you are not religious...

Raz, they are saying if you are not religious, put down that you are not religious. No-one is asking anyone to disown their heritage or background but people blindly sticking down "C of E" when you are not religious or put down Jedi which distorts the figures.

petedreadnought Posted on 09/03/2011 11:46
If you are not religious...

It's because of your gormless and naive questions in just about every thread. I can't decide if it's a wind-up, or you're just daft. No offence like. [:D]

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 09/03/2011 11:48
If you are not religious...

so you are saying that people put down Christian when they are in fact NOT Christian?

and all this is doing is telling those people NOT to do that.

oooooo Posted on 09/03/2011 11:49
If you are not religious...

zaphod, how do you work that out? It's their money and given that they lobby to see less influence by religion in political matters, it seems like a pretty appropriate way for them to spend their money. It's just a website, people like me are doing their campaigning for them.


Kilburn Posted on 09/03/2011 11:50
If you are not religious...

The campaign isn't a waste of money at all. Raising awareness about what the census info is used for, and the consequences of providing inaccurate information is important.

Of course if you have a vested interest in wanting more faith schools, then dismissing the campaign as irrelevant is exactly what you would do.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 09/03/2011 11:51
If you are not religious...

'If you say you’re religious on the census and don’t really mean it, then you are treated by some sections of the media, churches, and even government policymakers as if you are a fully-fledged believer'

all those Jedia religious people this must mean.


JonMc Posted on 09/03/2011 11:53
If you are not religious...

I haven't got mine yet. Does it have a box for us agnostics?

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 09/03/2011 11:53
If you are not religious...

'Of course if you have a vested interest in wanting more faith schools, then dismissing the campaign as irrelevant is exactly what you would do. '

also in you have a vested interest in No Religion Schools then this campaign is what you would promote

zaphod Posted on 09/03/2011 11:53
If you are not religious...

ooooooo, it's their money, but they could achieve something much more worthwhile with it. Fighting poverty, disease etc. are much more important than this.

People are entitled to put what they want on the forms. If they think they're Christian (or Jedi, for that matter), it's their decision & not for someone else to decide for them.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 09/03/2011 11:54
If you are not religious...

'People are entitled to put what they want on the forms. If they think they're Christian (or Jedi, for that matter), it's their decision & not for someone else to decide for them. '

EXACTLY!

mickbrown Posted on 09/03/2011 11:57
If you are not religious...

I filled in the census form last night. That question was voluntary.

So, out of laziness, I didn't answer it.

oooooo Posted on 09/03/2011 11:59
If you are not religious...

They aren't deciding it for them, they are informing them of the impact of their actions.

More people put Jedi than Sikh.

It seems a bit bizarre to say "why not fight disease and poverty". I suppose there are people who do, but it's outside the remit of the British Humanist Association. You might as well slag off the RNIB for not helping the poor.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 09/03/2011 12:01
If you are not religious...

'More people put Jedi than Sikh.'

oooooooooo are you suggesting that the government within policy use that fact?

zaphod Posted on 09/03/2011 12:02
If you are not religious...

mickbrown, how do you know what your household will be on 27th March?

TheSmogMonster Posted on 09/03/2011 12:03
If you are not religious...

You can be fined if you put false information on a census form Raz, that suggests to me that you're not entitled to put whatever you like on the form.

The question is voluntary that means you don't have to answer it, but if you do you have to answer it honestly.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 09/03/2011 12:05
If you are not religious...

'You can be fined if you put false information on a census form Raz, that suggests to me that you're not entitled to put whatever you like on the form.'

So that would suggest that when filling in this part of the form the information is true as far as the person inputting it is aware of at that time.

Which again makes this campaign a bit of a joke

oooooo Posted on 09/03/2011 12:09
If you are not religious...

Raz, you don't understand it, we get it.

superstu Posted on 09/03/2011 12:11
If you are not religious...

Who went to the boro match last night? How much was your ticket? FFS, couldn't you have just donated that money to a charity to help combat poverty?

Where's that Pink Ponce? Has he bought any more pairs of trainers lately? How much did they cost? FFS, why didn't he just donate that money for homeless people.

How much was that LisbonLegend fella's watch? FFS what a waste. Why not use the position of the sun to tell the time and give all his money to help starving children?

Amirite Zaphod? [^]

ProudToComeFromTeesside Posted on 09/03/2011 12:12
If you are not religious...

I was a bit religious during the 4 minutes of stoppage time last night.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 09/03/2011 12:12
If you are not religious...

ooooo I DO... so i will ask again....

'More people put Jedi than Sikh.'

oooooooooo are you suggesting that the government within policy use that fact?


P.S. this was taken from your web site... 'If you say you’re religious on the census and don’t really mean it, then you are treated by some sections of the media, churches, and even government policymakers as if you are a fully-fledged believer'

zaphod Posted on 09/03/2011 12:13
If you are not religious...

As regards religion, you are what you think you are, as far as the census is concerned. Lying doesn't come into it.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 09/03/2011 12:15
If you are not religious...

ooooooooooo as it was you who brough Jedi up on here do you think government policymakers consider Jedi when making policies?

mickbrown Posted on 09/03/2011 12:17
If you are not religious...

Religion - wise or folk in it?

Can't see any Road to Damascus type conversion of me from a lazy arse to anything else, and if I did have visitors I'll be bolloxed if I'm filling in a bit for them too.


oooooo Posted on 09/03/2011 12:22
If you are not religious...

Raz, I seriously haven't got a clue what you are on about.

It's not my website, why don't you go and read it to get the answers to all your questions. It's rather straightforward and a little concerning that you aren't able to understand it.

TheSmogMonster Posted on 09/03/2011 12:26
If you are not religious...

Raz doesn't get it, now there's a surprise.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 09/03/2011 12:28
If you are not religious...

'No-one is asking anyone to disown their heritage or background but people blindly sticking down "C of E" when you are not religious or put down Jedi which distorts the figures.'

do you think Jedi has distorted any figures enough to influence policy?


Razmond_HWDR Posted on 09/03/2011 12:32
If you are not religious...

also do you think no religious people will not tick no religion?

oooooo Posted on 09/03/2011 12:32
If you are not religious...

I don't know why I am answering.

Perhaps it has. But if you want to be represented when they look at the figures of people who say they are not religious, you might want to say you are not religious.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 09/03/2011 12:35
If you are not religious...

'Perhaps it has'

meaning you do not have one example of the Jedi religion being used to distort any policy making.

secondly, the Jedi vote was done as a protest vote because so many people wanted to vote for No Religion but could not.

north_east_invader Posted on 09/03/2011 12:35
If you are not religious...

"do you think Jedi has distorted any figures enough to influence policy?"

No Raz, in fact it was specifically ignored. The figures on /ACTUAL/ religion ARE used and are frequently quoted in defence of various non secular policy. The adverts are simple and you are of course free to ignore them (so I have no idea what the issue is here).

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 09/03/2011 12:38
If you are not religious...

north_east_invader thats partly my point. ooooo raised jedi distorting figures, which i have never seen.

Now if it happens in other areas, fair enough, but i do not think people are stupid enough to not know to vote no religion if they have no religion.

However if they want to vote Christian but do not practise the religion then that is also up to them.

Dibzzz Posted on 09/03/2011 12:40
If you are not religious...

Just because you've been Christened doesn't make you relegious.

It was just your parents choice as it was a nice family thung to do, and an excuse to get mortal.

north_east_invader Posted on 09/03/2011 12:44
If you are not religious...

"but i do not think people are stupid enough to not know to vote no religion if they have no religion.

However if they want to vote Christian but do not practise the religion then that is also up to them."

I certainly agree that people can freely choose to and should put what they want. I do think though that a lot of people tick a box without really thinking - my take is that the campaign is just trying to get people to think about the question first - which I think is fair enough.

oooooo Posted on 09/03/2011 12:45
If you are not religious...

"secondly, the Jedi vote was done as a protest vote because so many people wanted to vote for No Religion but could not"

Yes they could, they could have put "no religion" instead of "jedi" or something else which does not reflect their religious views.

"ooooo raised jedi distorting figures"

It has if you want to look at the census to gauge how many people are not religious.

How are you failing to understand this? Why don't you just put a question in the box, raz? It's worked well for you here.

t4tomo Posted on 09/03/2011 12:46
If you are not religious...

Rubbish campain.

I'd rather see an overstatement of Christians from the census and that be used by the government to keep a religious service as part of the school week, than have it under stated and and be used to justify having a core "christian" aspect of say education phased out (as it was thought to be no longer that majority religion of the UK) and replaced by non christian relgious stuff.

bill_door Posted on 09/03/2011 12:47
If you are not religious...

Long thread for a fairly simple concept. As nei says, it's aim is for people to think rather than just tick their box out of habit.

Lots of people will say they're Christian when they're nothing of the sort.

zaphod Posted on 09/03/2011 12:50
If you are not religious...

"Lots of people will say they're Christian when they're nothing of the sort."

Evidence? Or just your biased opinion?

My daughter, who is a Christian, put Jedi because she objected to the question.

oooooo Posted on 09/03/2011 12:52
If you are not religious...

"I'd rather see an overstatement of Christians from the census and that be used by the government to keep a religious service as part of the school week, than have it under stated and and be used to justify having a core "christian" aspect of say education phased out (as it was thought to be no longer that majority religion of the UK) and replaced by non christian relgious stuff."

***I'd rather see an attitude to religion in schools that reflects reality.***

But it's hardly a surprise that someone who actually wants religion in schools to perpetuate a lie in order to do it.

I am an atheist. I've told my son that gods aren't real and whether he believes it or not, I couldn't really say but he always gets an honest answer. And always gets an answer that can be justified or demonstrated to be true.

Still, even non-religious schools have to have a daily act of worship by LAW. I think it's utterly ludicrous. Why not have a daily sacrifice as well, while you are at it.

Fearless_Fish Posted on 09/03/2011 12:52
If you are not religious...

Well that's the whole point zaphod - people putting Jedi are distorting the figures - as that should have been one count for "Christian".

It does say the question is optional if she objected to the question...

north_east_invader Posted on 09/03/2011 12:53
If you are not religious...

t4tomo : I'd rather people answered honestly and we used those decisions to move things in a way that were appropriate. MY personal take would be the complete and total REMOVAL of religious service from schools and ensuring policy is kept entirely secular.

bill_door Posted on 09/03/2011 12:55
If you are not religious...

"Evidence? Or just your biased opinion?"

Why would I be biased?

Look around you, Christian suggests you practice the Christian faith. I don't know anyone who actually does but I do know a lot of them will say they're Christian because that's what they've always done.

oooooo Posted on 09/03/2011 13:01
If you are not religious...

"My daughter, who is a Christian, put Jedi because she objected to the question."

Given that it is optional, I'd say that was a profoundly stupid reason to put Jedi. Particularly because she is now grouped in with the other half a million who just wanted to put a joke answer down.

Never underestimate the religious in their endeavour assert their right to be 'offended'.

zaphod Posted on 09/03/2011 13:12
If you are not religious...

bill_door, your religion is what you believe. Your opinion of people's practice is irrelevant.

ooooooo, I disapproved of my daughter's answer too, but she was at University 10 years ago & you know what daft things students get up to.

bill_door Posted on 09/03/2011 13:21
If you are not religious...

Well that's a different argument that I'm not going to have as it'll go on forever.[:D]

I will say that seperating belief and practice is a little odd. If you believe in the teachings of a religion, why would you not practice them?

Belonging to a religion isn't just a matter of saying "Yeah, I believe there's a God." and then disregarding everything else about Christianity and how it affects your life.

FartingGnome Posted on 09/03/2011 13:23
If you are not religious...

"Why not have a daily sacrifice as well, while you are at it."

what a good idea.

A few morning prayers and then a free barbie. Sign me up.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 09/03/2011 13:28
If you are not religious...

'Given that it is optional,'

an optional question used to govern policy.

you help make this look more and more stupid.

Humanists moaning because they didnt like their percentage 10 years ago

zaphod Posted on 09/03/2011 13:34
If you are not religious...

bill_door, as a practising Christian, I sympathise with your attitude, but I don't feel that the Government can impose a religious standard on people of the sort you are suggesting.

I certainly would never say to someone: "You're not a Christian, because....". I'll leave those decisions to God.

Judge not that you be not judged.

boksic Posted on 09/03/2011 13:35
If you are not religious...

While we are at it... The Jedi are an obnoxious self righteous bunch if you watch all 6 films objectively.

Plus you can't put "Jedi" as your religion by choice, see the link: "we find out in "The Phantom Menace," that the Force isn't available to everyone. The Force comes from midi-chlorians, tiny symbiotic organisms in people's blood, like mitochondria. The Force, it turns out, is an inherited, genetic trait. If you don't have the blood, you don't get the Force."

"With one or two notable exceptions, the Jedi we meet in Star Wars are full of themselves. They ignore the counsel of others (often with terrible consequences)."



Link: Jedi = nobs, Empire = Good guys

squarewheelbike Posted on 09/03/2011 13:39
If you are not religious...

Honestly, all this fuss and palavar over an imaginary man in the sky, and some kid's films!

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 09/03/2011 13:42
If you are not religious...

to be fair i have seen many a joyrider misuse the jedi law which allows in times of trouble to use the force, to devastating affect.

t4tomo Posted on 09/03/2011 13:51
If you are not religious...

NE Invader - I'd rather see a complete removal of a mandatory religious service from schools too, the time would be better spent on lessons, however my point was I'd rather have a mandatory christian service, than a mandatory service that rotates between Christian, Islam, Hindu etc if teh cencus results were used to justify such a change.

bill_door Posted on 09/03/2011 13:53
If you are not religious...

"bill_door, as a practising Christian, I sympathise with your attitude, but I don't feel that the Government can impose a religious standard on people of the sort you are suggesting.

I certainly would never say to someone: "You're not a Christian, because....". I'll leave those decisions to God.

Judge not that you be not judged."

[:D]

I don't want the Government to impose any standard on anyone. I want people to think. There's no point putting 'Christian' if you live a far-from-Christian lifestyle. In my opinion.


Razmond_HWDR Posted on 09/03/2011 13:57
If you are not religious...

what is 'far-from-Christian lifestyle' ?

a lot of religions boil down to having similar believes its the detail thats different.

If you are a good person everyday are you living a christian lifestyle, or does that involved having to go to church every week?

peterkay Posted on 09/03/2011 14:01
If you are not religious...

a lame attempt to start another religous thread, some pople on this board really need to get a life[V]

Bernie_is_banned Posted on 09/03/2011 14:05
If you are not religious...

As far as i'm concerned, if you were baptised, attend churches for Weddings or funerals, then you believe in the Christian faith, and should recognise that.

This campaign is obviously some far left attempt to remove the importance of peoples beliefs (but only if they are Christian - Muslims, Hindus etc are sacrosanct). No surprise of course - fascists have always hated religion, as it represents a challenge to the state control they wish to achieve.

bill_door Posted on 09/03/2011 14:06
If you are not religious...

No, it isn't down to going to church Razzles.

It's using your religious beliefs as a guide towards the decisions you make, the activities you indulge in, your attitude towards other people.

You can do exactly the same purely by following your own moral code, the only difference is whether you class yuorself as being religious.

spider_man Posted on 09/03/2011 14:07
If you are not religious...

If I'm a good person everyday then I am just that. Being a good person doesn't make you a Christian and nor does being a Christian make you a good person.

The biggest problem is defining what is a Christian. In my opinion a child cannot be born a Christian or any other religion but if the child is told they are then they will probably put Christian later in their life with many not even doing anything to actually truly be a Christian. It's a grey area that doesn't suggest an easy answer, but the thought is that many consider themselves "Christian" because they were born in the UK and the UK is a "Christian" country. Whether right or wrong this is exactly what the campaign is meant to target. There are lots of people who don't give this a second thought, whilst there are plenty of others who are fully into it and aware of what the consider themselves to be.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 09/03/2011 14:08
If you are not religious...

it is a disturbing campaign showing the length some will go to to persuade others

bill_door Posted on 09/03/2011 14:10
If you are not religious...

"As far as i'm concerned, if you were baptised, attend churches for Weddings or funerals, then you believe in the Christian faith, and should recognise that."

There we go, Bernie makes the point perfectly.

Attending social functions for friends and family and a ceremony made when you were a toddler doesn't make you a believer in anything.

Rayman Posted on 09/03/2011 14:11
If you are not religious...

I like to think of myself as a challenge to the state and social control that religion wishes to achieve. In my FIL's time you couldn't get a job if you were on the wrong side of the priest and they weren't always easy to contact since they'd be out shagging anything that moved. If I may say so.

bill_door Posted on 09/03/2011 14:11
If you are not religious...

Spider_Man - well said.[^]

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 09/03/2011 14:13
If you are not religious...

bill_door if you have had a child aborted but still believe in the many christian values should you still not be allowed to vote Christian?

is this what this campaign is against?

Big_Ted_Church Posted on 09/03/2011 14:13
If you are not religious...

oooh - I almost bit there Bernie. Keep it up! Best W.U.M. on the board by far!

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 09/03/2011 14:16
If you are not religious...

'consider themselves "Christian"'

thats the point, we should tell someone to put No Religion because they only CONSIDER themselves Christian. If that is what they feel then that is what they should be able to put.

bill_door Posted on 09/03/2011 14:18
If you are not religious...

Ah, more questions from Raz.

Raz, if a Christian couple - or indeed, woman - decided to have an abortion I'm sure it was the hardest decision of their lives and one they'll come back to time and time again.

As far as I can see this campaign is urging people who don't consider themselves religious to say so, and would have no bearing on your example above.

north_east_invader Posted on 09/03/2011 14:20
If you are not religious...

"As far as i'm concerned, if you were baptised, attend churches for Weddings or funerals, then you believe in the Christian faith, and should recognise that."

If I actually thought for one second thats what you truly believed I think I might explode. However I won't bite. [:D]

I won't.

No.

Not biting.

.......

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 09/03/2011 14:21
If you are not religious...

'As far as I can see this campaign is urging people who don't consider themselves religious to say so, and would have no bearing on your example above.'

oh right.. Like they did in 2001. Proving that this campaign is pointless, unless they really think people are thick enough to think that if they have no religious beliefs marking No Religion is not for them.

oooooo Posted on 09/03/2011 14:22
If you are not religious...

Who is trying to persuade anyone to do anything? It's all about highlighting the impact your decisions have.

And Bernie:

"As far as i'm concerned, if you were baptised, attend churches for Weddings or funerals, then you believe in the Christian faith, and should recognise that."

Fine, put Christian down.

I think people need to stop constructing straw men here and engage their brain.

bill_door Posted on 09/03/2011 14:23
If you are not religious...

"oh right.. Like they did in 2001. Proving that this campaign is pointless, unless they really think people are thick enough to think that if they have no religious beliefs marking No Religion is not for them."

I can easily believe that people with no religious beliefs will put 'Christian'. Whether he's on a wind-up or not, what Bernie said is actually true to some people.

That said, I don't give much of a shíte about this campaign tbh.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 09/03/2011 14:24
If you are not religious...

'Who is trying to persuade anyone to do anything? It's all about highlighting the impact your decisions have.'

People already know

Which is why in 2001 people voted No Religion.

If this isnt to up the No Religion vote and people already voted No Religion in the last census why do you need to highlight it?

You didnt even know the impact Jedi had ffs

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 09/03/2011 14:27
If you are not religious...

'I can easily believe that people with no religious beliefs will put 'Christian'.'

If the option is there and they choose Christian even if thats because they believe in a christian marriage and the values that go with that what is wrong with that?

again it boils down to the grey area of how you see someone thinking they are Christian. They may not go to church every week but may hold the values of a christian.

oooooo Posted on 09/03/2011 14:28
If you are not religious...

"People already know"

Judging by you inability to 'get' what this simple website was saying for much of this thread, I'd say you are wrong.

"Which is why in 2001 people voted No Religion."

Yet earlier you claimed that was not an option. You are picking this up, albeit slowly.

"If this isnt to up the No Religion vote and people already voted No Religion in the last census why do you need to highlight it?"

Many people voted Jedi as a joke response while not being fully aware of how skewing the figures could affect policy decisions.

"You didnt even know the impact Jedi had ffs"

Many people voted Jedi as a joke response while not being fully aware of how skewing the figures could affect policy decisions.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 09/03/2011 14:31
If you are not religious...

You think people already know about how to vote No Religion and any affects of that? You really think money needed to be spent on something so needless.

how did Jedi skew policy decisions?

also wasnt the Jedi vote an anti religious question vote?

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 09/03/2011 14:33
If you are not religious...

as i said at the start : people are not allowed to answer the census how they want now?


If the answer is YES then this campaign is needless, as all that will happen is that people will answer as they want to anyway or they will go against the campaign for preaching to them and not answer at all.

oooooo Posted on 09/03/2011 14:38
If you are not religious...

BTW Raz, we are now in the realm of answering questions you have already asked.

If you have any further questions, please read this entire thread or the website linked in the OP.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 09/03/2011 14:39
If you are not religious...

BTW oooo i just forgot your answer... oh yeah here it is ' swear you too are bots'

oooooo Posted on 09/03/2011 14:40
If you are not religious...

"how did Jedi skew policy decisions?"

By making the figures in the census inaccurate.

"also wasnt the Jedi vote an anti religious question vote?"

Who knows? Which is precisely why people should either not answer or choose 'not religious'.

FartingGnome Posted on 09/03/2011 14:41
If you are not religious...

"oooh - I almost bit there Bernie. Keep it up! Best W.U.M. on the board by far!"

No he's not. He's just thick.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 09/03/2011 14:42
If you are not religious...

doesnt not answering skew the policy decisions?

Big_Ted_Church Posted on 09/03/2011 14:44
If you are not religious...

He is. There's only so many 'stop the world, I want to get off posts' possible before it becomes obvious.

TheSmogMonster Posted on 09/03/2011 14:54
If you are not religious...

Honestly, I've dreaded opening this thread again, like I do whenever Raz is off on one.

"as i said at the start : people are not allowed to answer the census how they want now?"

No you're not Raz you answer it with the truth or its a fine.

But seriously why do you have to be so deliberately stupid?

It's the dark matter is our God question all over again. The only idea that matters to you is the first one that pops into your head, and there isn't any room in there for owt else.

spider_man Posted on 09/03/2011 14:56
If you are not religious...

One interesting question then.
What do you put for your child? Surely the child can't have ANY religious belief because the child doesn't have any idea what it is. You could put Christian if you have had the child Christened and take the child to church, essentially you've made their religious choice for them before they're old enough. But for those who don't, I guess you just ignore the question?
BTW I know many who Christened their child, who never go to church and who don't really consider themselves religious. They believe in God though....but does that make them religious? It's all a load of rubbish really. I don't think ANY government budget should be spent on ANY religion. Religion should be a private thing that you get on with and do as you please and leave everyone else alone. It should not be driven by any govt funding which would make this question irrelevant.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 09/03/2011 14:57
If you are not religious...

should people be able to tick whichever box they like without some group telling them they should vote a certain way?

its that simple.

will not answering the question skew policy decisions?

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 09/03/2011 15:00
If you are not religious...

spider_man shall be banning all the saints days next followed by christmas [^]

spider_man Posted on 09/03/2011 15:08
If you are not religious...

I wouldn't ban anything that you're not forced to adhere to. I can choose to celebrate Christmas if I want to or I can choose not to. No problems there is there? It's not about banning anything, it's about equal rights and freedom isn't it? We're all human beings.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 09/03/2011 15:13
If you are not religious...

i'm pretty easy on the whole thing to be honest.

ZippytheHippy Posted on 09/03/2011 15:18
If you are not religious...

Bit of a non entity considering the question is voluntary like [:O][rle]

I cannot understand why people like oooooo get so hot and bothered by religon and feel the need to post tripe like this...

"Still, even non-religious schools have to have a daily act of worship by LAW. I think it's utterly ludicrous. Why not have a daily sacrifice as well, while you are at it."

If you disagree with religous teaching during assembly take your kid out for that part you are perfectly entitled to do so. Or is it some sort of bigotted response that you want "religous" childeren to be forced to be taught to be athiests?

deganya Posted on 09/03/2011 15:23
If you are not religious...

read this thread a couple of hours ago and got tired of Razmond's stupid questioning, and deliberate argumentative stance that is both stupid and childish. I come back and hes still at it and you lot are just encouraging him, just tell the fecking idiot to tick Christian and have it done with, then get back to debating something a bit more relevant.

superstu Posted on 09/03/2011 15:24
If you are not religious...

"should people be able to tick whichever box they like without some group telling them they should vote a certain way?"

Vote? It's not an election Raz. If Christianity gets the most "votes" it won't win anything.

oooooo Posted on 09/03/2011 15:25
If you are not religious...

"I cannot understand why people like oooooo get so hot and bothered by religon and feel the need to post tripe like this..."

Can't you? It's pretty obvious above why I posted it.

If you disagree with religous teaching during assembly take your kid out for that part you are perfectly entitled to do. Or is it some sort of bigotted response that you want "religous" childeren to be forced to be taught to be athiests?

1: taking him out is unfair as he is too young to understand why he is being singled out. He's also too young to be told what to believe and what not too.

2: children are "religious" in the same way that they are "Liberal Democrat". IE, not at all.

newyddion Posted on 09/03/2011 15:26
If you are not religious...

Christian ✓

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 09/03/2011 15:27
If you are not religious...

some valid points... i think i'll just ignore this question as it clearly stirs hatred in people

oooooo Posted on 09/03/2011 15:27
If you are not religious...

deganya, to be fair, he's kept this near the top and if some people read the linked site and it makes them question what they are told then I'm happy with that.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 09/03/2011 15:29
If you are not religious...

ya ruddy humanist with your laa-dee-daa points of view.

you are very patronising.

ZippytheHippy Posted on 09/03/2011 15:34
If you are not religious...


1: taking him out is unfair as he is too young to understand why he is being singled out. He's also too young to be told what to believe and what not too.

So you will never be satisfied then, why not force your opinions down his throat, you obviously have them or are you just churlish?

If you feel so strongly you would remove him/her from assembly, you obviously don't.

2: children are "religious" in the same way that they are "Liberal Democrat". IE, not at all.

Children can believe in God from a very early age or is yours on the slow side?

All you are trying to do mate is be "controversial" for the sake of it and as I said earlier the "relgious" question is not compulsory either don't answer it or so "non" simple even for you and the other "humanists" out there, get life.

oooooo Posted on 09/03/2011 15:39
If you are not religious...

"So you will never be satisfied then, why not force your opinions down his throat, you obviously have them or are you just churlish?

If you feel so strongly you would remove him/her from assembly, you obviously don't."

I've already explained why I don't remove him. You just want to be seen to 'win' an argument on the Internet. Please re-read my previous response if you didn't understand it.

"Children can believe in God from a very early age or is yours on the slow side?

All you are trying to do mate is be "controversial" for the sake of it and as I said earlier the "relgious" question is not compulsory either don't answer it or so "non" simple even for you and the other "humanists" out there, get life."

Controversial for the sake of it? I'm not the one suggesting my son has some sort of learning disability just to score an Internet point.

I think you need to go and take a good hard look at yourself there because you just come across as childish, bitter and rude. No-one asked you to post on this thread.

ZippytheHippy Posted on 09/03/2011 15:57
If you are not religious...

Feck me i bet tea time at your place is a barrel of laughs. You have all these opinions but no balls to act on them, sad[rle].

And yet you still avoid the obvious solution to your so called problem. I'l say it once more for you okay...

THE ANSWER IS VOLUNTARY IE YOU DON'T HAVE TO ANSWER IT IF YOU DON'T WANT TO.

If you still don't get it then go and bother some other message board matie you are becoming tedious.

oooooo Posted on 09/03/2011 16:09
If you are not religious...

"Feck me i bet tea time at your place is a barrel of laughs. You have all these opinions but no balls to act on them, sad."

I have no idea what you are on about, you'll have to explain yourself a bit better.

"And yet you still avoid the obvious solution to your so called problem. I'l say it once more for you okay...

THE ANSWER IS VOLUNTARY IE YOU DON'T HAVE TO ANSWER IT IF YOU DON'T WANT TO."

You clearly haven't read even a few posts from me on this thread. I have no problem with the question, whether people answer it or don't or even whether they choose to put down their religion or don't.

You don't have to read this thread if you don't want to. You don't have to reply to this thread if you don't want to. But if you do, please go and read some of it otherwise you just come across as someone who has got the wrong end of the stick and embarrassed himself with it.

Bernie_is_banned Posted on 09/03/2011 16:12
If you are not religious...

If someone happily goes to Weddings/funerals that take place in a church, Celebrates Christmas, eats Easter eggs etc, but puts "No religion" on a census form then they are a grade A hypocrite.

If they really are godless then they should practise what they preach (no pun intended)and not take part in Christian festivals.

bill_door Posted on 09/03/2011 16:25
If you are not religious...

Bernie

You do put yourself over as a man who lives by Christian principles.[:D][^]

Btw, what if you attend Catholic and Protestant weddings and funerals? What if you go to a Bar Mitzvah as well?

oooooo Posted on 09/03/2011 16:37
If you are not religious...

No Bernie, if someone claims to be a Christian like you do but spouts the hateful bile you do on a regular basis then they are a grade A hypocrite.


Dibzzz Posted on 09/03/2011 16:38
If you are not religious...

If you put Christian does that mean your a fan of the late 80's scouse pop band 'The Christians'? Or a fan of that old sky fairy bloke with the big beard?

They really should make this Census form clearer.

north_east_invader Posted on 09/03/2011 19:36
If you are not religious...

Still ... not ... going ... to ...bite ... this ... time ....

Bernie I hope, genuinely that you are simply the biggest windup merchant I have ever known. I really do, almost for the sake of humanity [smi]

Was that a bite ? [:D]

HarryVegas Posted on 09/03/2011 19:51
If you are not religious...

[:D] Haven't bothered trawling thru whole thread, but Bernie your last post is hilarious! Who started off Xmas and Easter then? Wasn't your beloved Jesus, was it!! [:o)]

squarewheelbike Posted on 09/03/2011 20:00
If you are not religious...

Pagan mid-winter festivals were around along time before Christianity, and the word "easter" and the symbolism of eggs is derived from this era too.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 10/03/2011 08:08
If you are not religious...

christmas celebrates a christian issue, as does easter

Bernie_is_banned Posted on 10/03/2011 08:33
If you are not religious...

You know full well that CHRISTmas & Easter are Christian festivals. If you celebrate them, you are Christian.


oooooo - you are just an imbecile, the kind of dreg that inhabits the sewers.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 10/03/2011 08:35
If you are not religious...

exactly you are celebrating a christian festival

chitsa Posted on 10/03/2011 08:54
If you are not religious...

No I'm Not. I'm celebrating getting time off with my family and friends. The fact that it is associated with Christianity is nowt nor summat to me.

number9 Posted on 10/03/2011 09:28
If you are not religious...

Christmas has nothing to do with Christ..

1) He was probably born sometime in October not December and everyone knows that pagans already celebrated the winter solstice on that date.

2) Jesus gave NO instructions to celebrate his birth, in fact the bible relates only a couple of birthday celebrations and nasty things happened on both occasions. Gen 40:20 cup bearer had his head chopped off & Mat 14:16-10 John the Baptist had his head chopped off as well.

3) The Early Christians did not celebrate it..

4) The Bible directs us to commemorate the date of Jesus’ death, not the anniversary of his or anyone else’s birth.

5) there is no specific command in the Bible to celebrate Easter sunday and there is no record of Jesus’ early disciples observing Easter Sunday?


So if you are an atheist imho enjoy Christmas and Easter with a clean conscience as they have nowt to do with Christianity.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 10/03/2011 09:46
If you are not religious...

they are christian celebrations. Trying going to church around those times and you will find out.

Bernie_is_banned Posted on 10/03/2011 09:50
If you are not religious...

"Christmas has nothing to do with Christ.."

Well, i really have heard it all now.


number9 Posted on 10/03/2011 09:54
If you are not religious...

simple question......

Christianity is based on what?

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 10/03/2011 09:57
If you are not religious...

The Bible [^]

TheBoy007 Posted on 10/03/2011 09:57
If you are not religious...

Personally i prefer what the Americans do with Christmas. They call it the 'holidays', which is what it is basically. If you want to call it Christmas and celebrate the birth of Christ(on a date that's no where near his supposed birthday[rle]) then thats up to you. If you want to call it the Mid Winter Festival and make a blood sacrifice then thats also up to you. Essentially though its holiday time.

Also i know Hindu's who have a celebration at Christmas. They give presents and have a family get together, Christmas tree ect. Does that make them Christians??

number9 Posted on 10/03/2011 09:58
If you are not religious...

So does the bible tell you to celebrate christmas?

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 10/03/2011 09:58
If you are not religious...

it means they are following the traditions of the religion of this country thats all.

TheBoy007 Posted on 10/03/2011 09:59
If you are not religious...

Have you ever really dissected the bible Raz?

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 10/03/2011 10:00
If you are not religious...

no. i'm not really that religious.

why?

number9 Posted on 10/03/2011 10:00
If you are not religious...

[rle]

Whats the point

TheBoy007 Posted on 10/03/2011 10:00
If you are not religious...

"it means they are following the traditions of the religion of this country thats all."

So thats clear then, celebrating Christmas doesn't make you a Christian.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 10/03/2011 10:02
If you are not religious...

i pointed out that both celebrations are christian celebrations. I didnt say as a christian you HAD to celebrate it, as pointed out in the bible.

number9 Posted on 10/03/2011 10:05
If you are not religious...

If christianity is based on the bible and the bible does not tell you to celebrate christs birth then logically (you'd think) christmas cannot be a christian festival.

Thats it my head now hurts from all the wall banging, believe what you want, I used to think that the moon was made from cheese.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 10/03/2011 10:08
If you are not religious...

this is easy no9.... if it is a festival that celebrates the birth of christ then it is a christian festival.

i suppose church on sundays has nothing to do with being a christian either lol

TheBoy007 Posted on 10/03/2011 10:09
If you are not religious...

"no. i'm not really that religious."

To base your beliefs on something you have never really studied is bizarre to me. I was raised a Christian. Went to church, said prayers at school ect. In my teens i started to see so many holes in it i took the time to study it further (hoping to close the holes and confirm my belief) and found it very ambiguous indeed. Its basically based on a tiny percent doubt. There's no evidence its just comes down to the fact that it can't be disproved like millions of things (see russells teapot).

Some of my friends say to me "why do you care" "what difference does it make", but it eats away at me. I can't just believe something because its convenient.

number9 Posted on 10/03/2011 10:09
If you are not religious...

Can't be bothered Raz, i'm now off to get me new golf clubs fitted. you carry on believing what you want.

speckyget Posted on 10/03/2011 10:10
If you are not religious...

Bernie_is_banned Posted on 10/03/2011 08:37Greater Manchester Police stuck in 1940s? Email Message To A Friend | Reply To Message


Maybe, just maybe, it's the first tiny step back towards a civilised society where people know how to behave & show respect.


Bernie_is_banned Posted on 10/03/2011 08:33If you are not religious... Email Message To A Friend | Reply To Message

oooooo - you are just an imbecile, the kind of dreg that inhabits the sewers.


Shurely some mistake?

s_o_e Posted on 10/03/2011 11:29
If you are not religious...

Brother furcoat oooooo talking bo.llocks again.

How arrogant to suggest to his child "god doesnt exist" and your evidence is? You, some lacky from the backstreets of Boro have singularly beat all the greatest intellectuals and scientists to the answer of one of the most enduring questions of human kind??

Shut up lad and along with the rest of the socialist brothers on this forum: step away from the keyboard!!

Lefty Posted on 10/03/2011 11:32
If you are not religious...

Have all the greatest intellectuals and scientists decided god definitely does exist then?

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 10/03/2011 11:32
If you are not religious...

i went to a catholic school, and in RE it also covered other religions which allowed me to help decide my beliefs rather than have a so called father figure preach that god does not exist.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 10/03/2011 11:34
If you are not religious...

'Have all the greatest intellectuals and scientists decided god definitely does exist then?'

they currently have no proof either way [^]

Lefty Posted on 10/03/2011 11:34
If you are not religious...

So God is your preferred so called father figure?

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 10/03/2011 11:35
If you are not religious...

no.

Lefty Posted on 10/03/2011 11:36
If you are not religious...

'they currently have no prood either way'

What would constitute proof God doesn't exist, in your opinion?

Bernie_is_banned Posted on 10/03/2011 11:37
If you are not religious...

Smuggy you really must be deranged.

Respect has to be earned. I've no respect for gutter snipes.

Lefty Posted on 10/03/2011 11:40
If you are not religious...

Are you a Christian, Bernie?

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 10/03/2011 11:40
If you are not religious...

i dont know, ask all the greatest intellectuals and scientists its what they have said.

Lefty Posted on 10/03/2011 11:45
If you are not religious...

'ask all the greatest intellectuals and scientists its what they have said'

I think they say you can't prove a negative. I also think they agree there is no empirical evidence that He does exist, hence this has to be taken on faith.


Razmond_HWDR Posted on 10/03/2011 11:48
If you are not religious...

good point 'God doesn't exist' cannot be proved so to suggest that is just blind faith.

well said

bill_door Posted on 10/03/2011 11:56
If you are not religious...

"Respect has to be earned. I've no respect for gutter snipes."

Displaying those strong Christian values of yours again Bernie.[^]

s_o_e Posted on 10/03/2011 11:58
If you are not religious...

Actually, Lefty, there is no empirical evidence god does/doesnt exist but there is very strong circumstantial evidence that god (of any number of varieties) does exist.

Even scientists have suggested the existence of a god particle.

I enjoyed Professor Brian Cox's shows and taking a helicopter view of his statements shows there is more than enough room for a god.

The simple fact is, that there is no definitive evidence for or against a god.

speckyget Posted on 10/03/2011 12:04
If you are not religious...

'Respect has to be earned. I've no respect for gutter snipes.'[:D]

So profane bumper stickers aimed at guttersnipes are ok? Bernie?


oooooo Posted on 10/03/2011 12:26
If you are not religious...

Firstly, I think the board owes be a great debt of gratitude for keeping raz, bernie and now soe (arguably the scariest lunatic on this board) on this thread away from the rest of the users.

Secondly, this "respect should be earned" thing is rubbish and very un-christian, bernie.

You should respect everyone by default. You are welcome to withdraw your respect if people behave in a way that makes you lose it.

Thirdly, no scientific proof of a god but circumstantial evidence? I'd love to hear that one. There's no way I'm telling my son to keep his mind open about things that have been proven to be a fact, such as evolution. Why would I then confuse him by keeping the idea of invisible gods alive?

Muttley Posted on 10/03/2011 12:28
If you are not religious...

Atheism and it's adherents behave more and more like an evangelical religion and it's zealots everyday.

Ironic, no?

speckyget Posted on 10/03/2011 12:30
If you are not religious...

Hmmmm....not sure the particle physicists who came up with the nickname 'God Particle' for the Higgs boson were endorsing the supernatural.

Lefty Posted on 10/03/2011 12:31
If you are not religious...

s_o_e

I'll say it to you. Can you prove a negative?

'there is very strong circumstantial evidence that god (of any number of varieties) does exist.'

I think you'll have a job, but can you give me an example?

'Even scientists have suggested the existence of a god particle'

Either you don't understand the principle behind the higgs bosun and how it got the nickname or you are taking a wider interpretation of what constitutes God than the standard version suggested by most religions.

Lefty Posted on 10/03/2011 12:38
If you are not religious...

'Atheism and it's adherents behave more and more like an evangelical religion and it's zealots everyday. '

Are you referring to the campaign or this thread, Muttley?

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 10/03/2011 12:39
If you are not religious...

oooooo what was before the big bang?


oooooo Posted on 10/03/2011 12:50
If you are not religious...

"oooooo what was before the big bang?"

You, Raz. Asking questions.

Maybe a God created the big bang and then decided to not show up a single time in the next 13 billion years. I don't know.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 10/03/2011 12:54
If you are not religious...

ok thanks for that, always a chance then.

'There's no way I'm telling my son to keep his mind open about things that have been proven to be a fact, such as evolution. Why would I then confuse him by keeping the idea of invisible gods alive?'

[:D][^]

Lefty Posted on 10/03/2011 12:55
If you are not religious...

'what was before the big bang?'

What do you mean by 'before'?


Razmond_HWDR Posted on 10/03/2011 12:58
If you are not religious...

before - Previous to , earlier than.

it seemed a simple enough question

Lefty Posted on 10/03/2011 12:58
If you are not religious...

Raz,

Do you not think teaching children the art of critical thinking, to use logic and reason, is important?

Bernie_is_banned Posted on 10/03/2011 12:59
If you are not religious...

"So profane bumper stickers aimed at guttersnipes are ok? Bernie?"

No. There is no need for profanity, is there?

I would describe myself as a christian, yes. I'm not a regular attender of church services, but i do visit churches to engage in silent prayer and contemplation from time to time.


oooooo Posted on 10/03/2011 13:00
If you are not religious...

Raz, just for you, I was being sarcastic when I suggested god made the universe. If he had to make the universe then who made him?

I'm not sure me not having direct knowledge of what happened 'before' the big bang sheds any doubt on the fact that is evolution nor does it make gods any more likely than they were until you asked you amazing question.

I actually think there was nothing at all before the big bang, but that's just me.

Lefty Posted on 10/03/2011 13:07
If you are not religious...

Thanks for your answer Bernie.

In my view you do not need to attend church to be a Christian. I would say you need to believe in God and Christ and that is it.

To be a good Christian I would say following Christ's teachings was the main criteria. I assume as a non regular attendee of church services that you would agree, is that fair?

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 10/03/2011 13:07
If you are not religious...

so you dont believe in the concept of multi-verses. You think nothingness is more likely than scientific theory?

oooooo Posted on 10/03/2011 13:10
If you are not religious...

I'm not sure how that is incompatible with multiverse theory, but there you go.

Lefty Posted on 10/03/2011 13:11
If you are not religious...

Scientists don't believe there was nothing before the the big bang, merely that all matter was compressed to a singularity.


north_east_invader Posted on 10/03/2011 13:14
If you are not religious...

"The simple fact is, that there is no definitive evidence for or against a god."

No, but it is considered extremely unlikely. Almost certain that there is not one.

There is NO reason to suggest one does. There is no evidence to suggest one exists whatsoever.

Much like it is pointless for me to debate the existence of a small china teapot in orbit between the earth and mars.


Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell's_teapot

number9 Posted on 10/03/2011 13:16
If you are not religious...

gordon bennet is this still going on!

That said just been fitted for my new R11 1W with a carbon fibre shaft.... 5 handicap here I come so yes God does exist!

that said they still have no news on my car [sad]

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 10/03/2011 13:16
If you are not religious...

oooooo it is based on certain religions, that do not start with nothingness.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 10/03/2011 13:22
If you are not religious...

'Much like it is pointless for me to debate the existence of a small china teapot in orbit between the earth and mars.'

or human shyte on a meteorite

oooooo Posted on 10/03/2011 13:23
If you are not religious...

I have no idea what you are on about, raz. But that makes two of us.

Just be accurate on your census forms folks, it's for everybody's benefit.

Lefty Posted on 10/03/2011 13:25
If you are not religious...

Number9,

Your assertion that God exists is not something that you can back up with any testable evidence, but rather derived from a belief that comes from a feeling inside you and perhaps backed by the vast numbers of people who share this feeling, is that not so?

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 10/03/2011 13:26
If you are not religious...

i think the fact that you have no idea what i am talking about regarding the understanding of certain religions really highlights what you understand. I think your talk is a lot of hot air.

Lefty science also uses leaps of faith to come up with theories and those theories use theories based on their leaps of faith. Dark Matter is a good example of the fact we cannot prove it exists and it fact at the moment we are starting to disprove some of the alleged qualities of dark matter.

end of thread. [:D]

squarewheelbike Posted on 10/03/2011 13:29
If you are not religious...

Considering all the evil perpertrated in his/her/its name, I think god would pretend not to exist.

zaphod Posted on 10/03/2011 13:29
If you are not religious...

Most Christians would say that their faith was initially based on a series of historical events as recorded mostly in the New Testament & than confirmed to them by the effects in their own life after they take the step of faith.

oooooo Posted on 10/03/2011 13:32
If you are not religious...

Thanks for dropping in, Raz! [:D]

number9 Posted on 10/03/2011 13:33
If you are not religious...

I started life as an athiest but changed my mind for many reasons and I tend to avoid theological debates on here Lefty, as all they do is massage peoples egos.

For me life is far far far to complex to have happen'd by chance imo, and as the bible (the thing that those who profess to be christians are supposed to believe) says at Hebrews chp 11 is how i look at it.

Personally I don't care if a person believes in God, or gods as I'm sure you don't care what I believe either?

In the end I cannot prove God exists and athiests cannot prove he does not, simple really now can we talk about my new R11 driver please[smi]

Lefty Posted on 10/03/2011 13:38
If you are not religious...

Zaphod,

The series of historical events being the virgin birth, the crucifixion and then resurrection of Christ, plus the miracles of the feeding of the 5,000 and the raising of Lazarus from the dead?

Surely it was the other actions and teachings of Christ that are more important in defining a Christian?

north_east_invader Posted on 10/03/2011 13:38
If you are not religious...

"For me life is far far far to complex to have happen'd by chance imo"

Single celled life ?

speckyget Posted on 10/03/2011 13:39
If you are not religious...

Didn't that Jesus chap say something about rich men, camels, eyes of needles and that?

number9 Posted on 10/03/2011 13:41
If you are not religious...

See what i mean Lefty?

People like "north_east_invader" clearly demopstrate my point and considering he/she obviously has no concept about how complex even single cell life is I would rather put my time to a more productive task.

So I'm off to do some work on my H1 as just got the gear box back.

Edit.. speckyget

You having a pop?

north_east_invader Posted on 10/03/2011 13:43
If you are not religious...

Whoah there number9, you take a lot from my question, which was nothing more than a question. Love having words put in my mouth.

number9 Posted on 10/03/2011 13:44
If you are not religious...

Accept my heartfelt appolgy then, but avoid making sweeping statements.

zaphod Posted on 10/03/2011 13:44
If you are not religious...

Lefty, I was clarifying the process of coming to faith. Once you believe, then the teachings of the Bible become in principle the basis of your life, though I find failure to obey depressingly common.

speckyget Posted on 10/03/2011 13:46
If you are not religious...

Just find it unusual that someone who celebrates wealth and worldly goods at every opportunity should espouse the teachings of a religious figure who preached humility and poverty. I'm sure you can square that circle, but not sure how.

north_east_invader Posted on 10/03/2011 13:48
If you are not religious...

"singled celled life ?"

Thats a sweeping statement ?

I just asked for clarification. I am fully aware of the complexity of single celled life, it is however not in the same league as multi celled life. For my own interest I just wondered what you were referring to, very complex life as is, or less complex (but nevertheless still complex) life as it began. Just that. Simply that.

zaphod Posted on 10/03/2011 13:49
If you are not religious...

specky, number 9 is a JW. He follows somebody called Jehovah, not Jesus.

squarewheelbike Posted on 10/03/2011 13:52
If you are not religious...

"Once you believe, then the teachings of the bible become in principle the basis of your life, though I find the failure to obey depressingly common."

I don't!


Link: Well scary!

speckyget Posted on 10/03/2011 13:56
If you are not religious...

JW eh? I believe the popular musician and entertainer Prince is an adherent.

oooooo Posted on 10/03/2011 14:01
If you are not religious...

I'm currently watching Cosmos by Carl Sagan. In the second episode he shows the evolution of single-celled creatures and he does so with humility.

It's worth watching because to suggest life evolved by chance over-simplifies it a little.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 10/03/2011 14:59
If you are not religious...

multiverse is a theory that gives suggestion to why this universe is so able to create life so well.

squarewheelbike Posted on 10/03/2011 15:00
If you are not religious...

There's the double ton!

TheBoy007 Posted on 10/03/2011 15:05
If you are not religious...

"multiverse is a theory that gives suggestion to why this universe is so able to create life so well."

I don't see how you can square parallel universe's with the Bible? Surely it goes against the teachings of the Bible?

Lefty Posted on 10/03/2011 15:09
If you are not religious...

'Lefty science also uses leaps of faith to come up with theories and those theories use theories based on their leaps of faith. Dark Matter is a good example of the fact we cannot prove it exists and it fact at the moment we are starting to disprove some of the alleged qualities of dark matter.'

No Raz, Science does not use leaps of faith. Science tries to explain the natural world and the universe around us. This first requires a hypothesis (or theory with a small t). This hypothesis is then rigorously tested to see if it can be falsified. Those theories that stand up to this testing time and again and are not falsified by new discoveries, such as Darwin's great idea, become a Theory (with a capital T), but they are only ever one experiment or piece of evidence away from being discarded or revised.

Dark matter is a working hypothesis, based on observations and plausible reasoning for these observations. It is being tested and it should be falsifiable in time with technological advancements. If it is falsified then a new hypothesis will emerge until we arrive at an explanation that meets every test.

This is the opposite to Faith. Sadly history is littered with examples where Religion has discouraged and oppressed the quest for knowledge, because of the vested interest of those in charge maintaining their power and the status quo.

Wherever Science and Religion have come up against each other it is Religion that has been shown to be wrong.

The Muslim Caliph's had the right idea while the Europe was living in the dark ages. They encouraged the preservation and search for knowledge by science and instructed their philosophers to reconcile the words in the Koran with the new discoveries. Their reasoning was that if Science made a discovery then that was true since Allah was ultimately the reason for this. That this was at odds with the current religious teaching meant that the religious leaders needed to reinterpret the reading of the text to agree with the facts.

It seems to me that this happens sometimes today, particularly among the enlightened in the Anglican and UK Catholic church. The Theory of God evolves and modifies in light of new evidence, as it were. But it is resisted and slow.

In my view the important and useful aspects of religion are the philosophical ones regarding the inner self and the living of ones life, but this is not determined by any dubious ancient histories or implausible magical supernatural events and the words of philosophers of all era's and faiths are worthy of a prime place in school education, be they Jesus Christ, Confuscious, Buddha, Mohammed or Aristotle as well as atheists such as Bertrand Russell or A C Grayling.

Above all, people should be taught HOW to think rather than WHAT to think.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 10/03/2011 15:10
If you are not religious...

it wasnt a bible comparison

north_east_invader Posted on 10/03/2011 15:11
If you are not religious...

what Lefty said.
[^]

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 10/03/2011 15:17
If you are not religious...

Dark Matter Theory DOES NOT use any leaps of faith to come to its conclusion?

scientists would disagree, as they have stated that a certain leap of faith is required to form a theory which can then be tested.

Dark Matter theory is being tested and elements of it have been proven to be incorrect.

speckyget Posted on 10/03/2011 15:18
If you are not religious...

Scientific method starts with the presumption that the theory IS wrong Razmo.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 10/03/2011 15:20
If you are not religious...

so why are other theories based on the Big Bang Theory if the presumption is that it is wrong?

speckyget Posted on 10/03/2011 15:23
If you are not religious...

Wrong until shown to be otherwise by an empirical means.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 10/03/2011 15:25
If you are not religious...

so why are other theories based on it then?


oooooo Posted on 10/03/2011 15:25
If you are not religious...

Raz, why are you not able to digest information that spans more than one sentence?

No-one presumes the big bang is wrong, but the default was to presume it was wrong until evidence was found to support the hypothesis. And there's a lot of evidence to support it.


TheBoy007 Posted on 10/03/2011 15:29
If you are not religious...


"it wasnt a bible comparison"

Then i'm not sure what your argument is.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 10/03/2011 15:29
If you are not religious...

is the big bang still a theory then?

so still wrong?

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 10/03/2011 15:29
If you are not religious...

is the big bang still a theory then?

so still wrong?

oooooo Posted on 10/03/2011 15:31
If you are not religious...

No-one said it was wrong, why are you?

north_east_invader Posted on 10/03/2011 15:38
If you are not religious...

Raz, I have suggested this to you before, but if you are genuinely interested, read up on the scientific method.


Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method

number9 Posted on 10/03/2011 16:30
If you are not religious...

Nope not going to bite.

ZippytheHippy Posted on 10/03/2011 16:44
If you are not religious...

zaphod for a proclaimed christian you know absolutly nowt about it. I'm an agnostic but even I know that Jehovah is the name of God in the bible and hence Jesus being God's son well that makes him jesus God as well, kind of has a logical flow to it don't you think[rle]

No wonder Christians get a hard time of it on here when it appears that I know more about than you do[smi]

As for specky I don't recall no9 "celebrating" his wealth, the lad seems to have done good so what or are you jealous?

ron_manager Posted on 10/03/2011 16:50
If you are not religious...

Sorry to be a correct a pen his name in the bible is Yeshua.
Jehovah is a hebrew name for god not Jesus.[:D]

ron_manager Posted on 10/03/2011 16:57
If you are not religious...

Raz do you believe in the Heliocentric Theory.

speckyget Posted on 10/03/2011 17:21
If you are not religious...

So you not recalling it means it didn't happen...

zaphod Posted on 10/03/2011 17:36
If you are not religious...

Zippy, I'm afraid you're displaying your ignorance. God in the old testament was never called Jehovah. That was a medieval translation error of a word which probably Yahweh in Hebrew.

I was taking the píss, because early JWs insisted that it was essential to use the correct name for God, which they said was Jehovah. When it was realised in the 1920s that Jehovah was a mistranslation, the JWs were presumably a bit embarrassed, but carried on regardless.

JWs do not believe that Jesus was God. Hence the difference between them & Christians.

number9 Posted on 10/03/2011 17:39
If you are not religious...

To be correct the name is the representation of YHWH or the tetragrammaton. Since Hebrew was written without vowels the p renunciation could be Jehovah, Yahweh or Yesuah.

to be even more pedantic it is the Hebrew name for God not god.

As for Speck,,, show me you have no idea how wealthy or poor I am, unless you know me? What do you do for a living perhaps you worked for me?

Nearly broke my own rules there Zaphod, continue in you ignorance mate.

ron_manager Posted on 10/03/2011 17:42
If you are not religious...

god doesn't get a captial in my world[:P]

number9 Posted on 10/03/2011 17:44
If you are not religious...

fair enough [:P]

speckyget Posted on 10/03/2011 17:45
If you are not religious...

You're right, I have no idea how wealthy or otherwise you are. There's a middling to good chance you suffer from internet Walter Mittyism. It is apparent from your posts however - the Merc, the branded golf clubs, the holidays - that the modern obsession with the material is something you buy into like a ton of bricks.

Jesus would have kicked your sorry arse out the temple.

number9 Posted on 10/03/2011 17:48
If you are not religious...

The branded Golf clubs?

Taylormade R11 +-£300, by the way is there another type of Golf club that is not branded, you know the type made by a company with no name?

As for the car i think you'l find I was asked I did not volunteer. So where do i go on holiday?

Walter Mittie if you say so......[rle]

zaphod Posted on 10/03/2011 17:49
If you are not religious...

It couldn't be Jehovah, because there appears to be no J in ancient Hebrew, nor Yesuah because there's no S in YHWH.

number9 Posted on 10/03/2011 17:50
If you are not religious...

nope won't break my rule.

boroarmyret Posted on 10/03/2011 17:54
If you are not religious...

Ron, do you still believe the
Bible content was agreed at Niacene?


ron_manager Posted on 10/03/2011 18:36
If you are not religious...

Well yes I do believe in the council of Nicaea. Its quite well documented as the arch propagandist Constantine had his filthy mits involved. Remember this was were they choose what to keep and what to get rid of. It was a big power game.

TheBoy007 Posted on 10/03/2011 20:31
If you are not religious...

The Gospels that weren't included were more damning than the ones that were. If i recall correctly it was Thomas who wrote about Jesus as a child. Casting magic spells and turning school friends into frogs ect. Also i think it was Thomas who recorded Jesus saying that only Men and Women who become men can gain entry to Heaven! But they don't like us to know about those.

could_it_be Posted on 10/03/2011 20:43
If you are not religious...

what i have learned from this thread is that speckyget is a jealousget

i imagine it would be more important to number9's faith is what he does (i.e. how he treats his fellow human beings) rather than what he has (i.e. fancy golf sticks and a nice car)

seems you can only celebrate your wealth without hypicrosy if you're billy bragg

TheBoy007 Posted on 10/03/2011 20:51
If you are not religious...

I think Specky's point was that how can Number9 square being Christian with being wealthy when Jesus made numerous comments about the rich struggling to get in to heaven and linked being poor with being virtuous. I don't think he was having a go at number9 for being wealthy just pointing out the hypocrisy.

oooooo Posted on 10/03/2011 21:00
If you are not religious...

As far as wealth goes, I always took the viewpoint that Jesus had a problem with people in the church taking money or making money off the back of it. As far as a rich man entering heaven is concerned, you might interpret that as "you aren't rich when you are dead" or in more modern parlance "no point in being the richest corpse in the graveyard"

Personally, although I have had some exchanges with number9, I never really felt that he was *that guy*.[^]

number9 Posted on 10/03/2011 21:10
If you are not religious...

Why thank you oooooo, I feel all fuzzy inside[:D].

Actually what Jesus was talking about is that those who pursue wealth above all else would not inherit Gods kingdom. After all King David, Solomon, Abraham, Moses & Job were not short of a bob or two. Myself and my wife worked hard for what we have and I make no apologies neither am I embarrassed by it. It's what you do with it that counts and I certainly won't be the richest in the cemetery.

Jesus outer garment that Roman soldiers cast lots over was not of the primark quality either.

That said my new R11 (made by addidas by the way) is mint and will get me an extra 20 yards at least, might even make the magical 300[:D]