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Razmond_HWDR Posted on 04/01/2011 12:39
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

its something we cannot yet prove or see but we believe it affects all around us.

north_east_invader Posted on 04/01/2011 12:44
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

There is significant evidence to suggest that something else other than normal visible matter is creating gravity - lots of it. Until we know what it is, its name is dark matter. Its effects are observable ... the same cannot be said about god, so don't really see the connection ?.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 04/01/2011 12:51
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

if you describe dark matter again but rather than calling it 'Dark Matter' try calling it 'God' then you may see the connection.

north_east_invader Posted on 04/01/2011 16:17
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

Which part of "the effects are observable" would you attribute to "god" ? I'm genuinely curious.

earlofcoulby Posted on 04/01/2011 16:34
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

What 'effects' are attributal to God?

Moggas_Pocket_Rockets Posted on 04/01/2011 16:38
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

Remember when everyone used to believe the sun and moon were Gods, good to know we've moved on since then....

centralscrutinizer Posted on 04/01/2011 16:41
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

I thought Alanis Morissette was god, I saw it in Dogma.

earlofcoulby Posted on 04/01/2011 16:47
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

Everything we see is time.

Dibzzz Posted on 04/01/2011 16:49
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

What has a pretend sky fairy got to do with dark matter?

SmoginManila Posted on 04/01/2011 17:28
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

Even Dark matter doesn't completely explain things... there's something called dark energy which apparently should be needed to top it up, which also gives rise to string theory.........

far too clever for the god that says you can't eat meat on fridays or reckons that a david blaine trick of turning water into wine will keep the masses happy!

The abrahamic god isn't clever enough to create this universe. He's like the Morecombe and Wise thread. a class act in his day when most of us had black and white tellies.

but a bit redundant now.




Jonny_Ingbar Posted on 04/01/2011 17:36
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

Boulby potash is one of a handful of places where the search for dark matter takes place [^]

r00fie Posted on 04/01/2011 17:37
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

Does it "matter"[rle]

plazmuh Posted on 04/01/2011 17:39
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

We are only here to bear witness no more
no less..
So much has yet to be revealed..
The hydron collider has only proved that there was activty before the big bang, they didnt count on that did they..
To smart for their own good..
Regards
Plazmuh
[:D][:D][^]

miltonkeynesaverage Posted on 04/01/2011 17:40
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

pretend sky fairy [:D]


[^]

red_shamrock Posted on 04/01/2011 17:43
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

Scientist, God nuts, Conspiracy theorists,
to many choices.

centralscrutinizer Posted on 04/01/2011 17:49
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

..or does it anti matter ?[8)]

Gillandi Posted on 04/01/2011 17:53
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

Couldn't agree more. Kneel down, stare back into your toilet bowls and prey.

Julios_Hairband Posted on 04/01/2011 17:57
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

"The hydron collider has only proved that there was activty before the big bang, they didnt count on that did they.."

Erm, yes, sceintists have been open to that possibility for quite a long time now.

What's this hydron collider then? Must be good.

the_dude_abides Posted on 04/01/2011 18:47
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

[?]why would dark matter be our god, it's no more likely than tomato soup being our god

what a silly notion



Gillandi Posted on 04/01/2011 18:54
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

Don't diss the great God Campbell Dude, the creme of diety's.

red_shamrock Posted on 04/01/2011 18:56
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

Replaced Dark matter


Link: WARHOL

big_galoot Posted on 04/01/2011 19:10
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

Its more likely that bread is our god,the JeHOVIS witnesses say so!

Gillandi Posted on 04/01/2011 19:20
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

They're all we knead.

LowFellLurker Posted on 04/01/2011 19:29
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

Wonder if the Hadron Collider could be harnessed to dry laundry. Once round the ring at warp speed and hey presto.[:D]

BoroAl Posted on 04/01/2011 19:51
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

Have aword with MOM and Hubert Farnsworth

Kirkylane Posted on 04/01/2011 20:16
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

Are you serious Raz?

When cosmologists need to make up "dark matter" and multiverses it's a clue that they've lost the plot.



Link: Myths

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 05/01/2011 08:24
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

'Which part of "the effects are observable" would you attribute to "god" ? I'm genuinely curious.'

the same you would attribute to "Dark Matter" considering "Dark Matter" is just a name for something scientist are yet unable to prove.

like i said substitute the name "Dark Matter" for "God" and it should make more sense.

When religion meets science the world will make much more sense than it does now.

gravyboat Posted on 05/01/2011 08:37
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

'When cosmologists need to make up "dark matter" and multiverses it's a clue that they've lost the plot'

And you know this to be true because?

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 05/01/2011 08:39
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

no its a clue that they also tend to use a leap of faith to get the answers they sometimes want.

north_east_invader Posted on 05/01/2011 08:45
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

No Razmond, there are directly observable effects in that there is more gravity than there should be from visible matter. As matter is known to create gravity through the warping of space time, scientists have given the theorised cause of this effect a name : "Dark Matter" and studies are being done to prove and disprove this.

Substituting "Dark Matter" for "God" doesn't make any sense. As I requested please show me what observable effects are attributed to "god".

north_east_invader Posted on 05/01/2011 08:55
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

"no its a clue that they also tend to use a leap of faith to get the answers they sometimes want."

Its true that ideas are theorised and discussed until proven or disproven.


Link: Scientific method

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 05/01/2011 08:59
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

your suggesting that there is more gravity then there should be and that something with mass creates this gravity.

The extra creation of gravity has been named as "Dark Matter".

You do not see why a "God" could not create this extra gravity?

Something creates this extra gravity, some sort of mass that we are unable to yet prove and you think it is not that "God" rather than using "Dark Matter" could make just as much sense?

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 05/01/2011 09:00
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

north_east_invader Big Bang is a theory that has taken a leap of faith to get to the conclusion

ItsMe Posted on 05/01/2011 09:08
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

Raz, I think I understand what you're getting at.

All the unexplainable events in the world used to be attributed to a mysterious force known as God, but as our knowledge of the world around us and our scientific understanding of it have grown, we have now substituted the name God for Dark Matter.

That sound about right? [?]

north_east_invader Posted on 05/01/2011 09:08
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

It would be the easiest thing in the world to say "god did it", hey its a convenient out isn't it ? I'll stick to exploration, experiment, observation and proofs and leave the sky fairies to the suited and booted on a sunday.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 05/01/2011 09:13
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

ItsMe thats kinda my point.

If science use a word or term to explain something they cannot prove then it because factual and relevant.

But if religion does it it is laughed off i.e. 'leave the sky fairies to the suited and booted on a sunday'

ItsMe Posted on 05/01/2011 09:16
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

Following on from that line of thought you could argue that science is an evolved form of religion [?]

north_east_invader Posted on 05/01/2011 09:17
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

No, science admits and makes it clear when something is proven or not, when something is a theory or not. Hypothesis is key to scientific study which is then followed by observation and experiment.

The difference is in science it is the beginning, in religion it is the end.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 05/01/2011 09:18
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

exactly. or that science, certainly early stages science is just another form of religion.

both science and religion have many similarities.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 05/01/2011 09:21
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

'The difference is in science it is the beginning, in religion it is the end.'

but the same worries that we have about the leaps of faith in religion happen in science.

Take the big bang theory many many other theories have been based on or around the big bang theory and evolved from that theory.

Of course we still have no proof that a big bang as theorised actually happened.

ItsMe Posted on 05/01/2011 09:22
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

n_e_inv, I agree that hypothesis is what scientific study is based on but isn't religion just hypothesis WITHOUT the scientific study?
Hence the use of the word Faith when describing a religion.

north_east_invader Posted on 05/01/2011 09:24
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

but in science we continue to work on those things we do not understand and gather evidence. Religion starts AND stops with blind faith.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 05/01/2011 09:27
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

like i said science uses a theory and then bases other theories on that theory then a leap of faith in science is created.

That is very religious like.

at some point some scientist will try and prove or disprove all the theories but that may take many years, and in the mean time they rely on the same faith religions rely on.

north_east_invader Posted on 05/01/2011 09:32
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

But science ADMITS when this is the case, it is not scared of saying it doesn't know. Religion just defaults to "god did it" and stops.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 05/01/2011 09:36
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

you have just said Dark Matter did something you can not as yet prove, did you not?

north_east_invader Posted on 05/01/2011 09:47
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

Yes, that being the "admitting" part.

scally Posted on 05/01/2011 09:50
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

Like I said on the other thread, mention god in your title and you're guaranteed a ton.

[Yawn]

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 05/01/2011 10:20
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

but if you cannot prove something why make such a leap of faith and say it is so.

Science seems to be say something is and then try and prove it.

so we have Dark Matter, and the Big Bang two things at the moment made up by Scientists to make them look good.

if Dark Matter could be true, then i guess a sort of God could be true too?

Bri_Marwood Posted on 05/01/2011 11:01
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

Gravity is too weak so has to be leaking somewhere, multiverses, this whole thing is created. Rock on God.

north_east_invader Posted on 05/01/2011 11:08
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

"Science seems to be say something is and then try and prove it."

Razmond, perhaps you need to check the definition of a hypothesis and the scientific method.

Nothing is true or false until it has been proven or disproven, this is as true of dark matter as it is god, so in that respect you are right, this is not the same as likening the two systems however.

Bri_Marwood Posted on 05/01/2011 11:10
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

To be believe in creation is not necessarily to believe in God.

north_east_invader Posted on 05/01/2011 11:15
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

Does "creation" not imply a "creator" by definition ?

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 05/01/2011 11:16
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

so why to you put down god and religion so easily?

'I'll stick to exploration, experiment, observation and proofs and leave the sky fairies to the suited and booted on a sunday'

If both god and dark matter could be true as neither have yet been proven why do you seem to laugh off god as a possibility?

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 05/01/2011 11:17
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

'Does "creation" not imply a "creator" by definition ?'

doesnt the Big Bang suggest something created us, no matter how minor that something is, something still created us?

Bri_Marwood Posted on 05/01/2011 11:19
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

Yes by all means, I believe the universe is created, like what is happening in CERN right now.

north_east_invader Posted on 05/01/2011 11:24
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

Razmond_HWDR - If someone wishes to test God using the scientific method I am all ears. In general scientists are just as happy to be proven wrong as right - either way is progress. The same is not true of religion in my experience.

north_east_invader Posted on 05/01/2011 11:27
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

"doesnt the Big Bang suggest something created us, no matter how minor that something is, something still created us?"

In that it formed through natural processes ? Depends if you infer an intelligence behind it or not.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 05/01/2011 11:29
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

i guess it all depends on what you regard as a god.

If you class the ultimate creator whatever that be as a classification of god then the Big Bang could explain it.

Dark Matter could be another area of classification of Godly.

All depends.

Seems in your god you want something much much more than what science may one day be able to prove and that could also be classed as godly.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 05/01/2011 11:34
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

'natural processes '

what do you class as natural about the big bang? ... considering the theory states there was nothing before it

north_east_invader Posted on 05/01/2011 11:34
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

Seem you are just interchanging the terms of "god" and "natural processes". God traditionally implies an intelligent being, if you do not, then that is a different conversation.

Personally I do not want anything from a god. I completely wholeheartedly do not believe in one in the slightest. I will be the first to stand up and admit I am wrong if it is ever proven, however I suspect this will not be the case.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 05/01/2011 11:40
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

no it implies god created the world and everything.

intelligence is never mentioned.

Some gods have powers i.e Neptune and Thor etc, but their intelligence is never mentioned.

again what do you class as natural about the big bang? Scientifically how do you know it naturally happened?

Boromart Posted on 05/01/2011 11:47
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

"You do not see why a "God" could not create this extra gravity?"
So what you are saying is that god is an invisible fat bastid who lives in space?

Boromart Posted on 05/01/2011 11:52
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

"both science and religion have many similarities."

But it is the differences that are important. Science strives with an open mind to find out the mysteries of the universe starting with a fundamental idea that we now nothing, and building, observing, testing and proving theories until they are recognised as fact.

Religion is a system of belief that ignores observable evidence. It evolves itself not for greater knowledge like an evolving theory, but just to perpetuate the myths it pedals as a form of control.

north_east_invader Posted on 05/01/2011 11:56
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

"Some gods have powers i.e Neptune and Thor etc, but their intelligence is never mentioned."

But they were intelligent beings. Allegedly. They had a conciousness, they could talk, communicate, think.

"So what you are saying is that god is an invisible fat bastid who lives in space?"

No, I'm saying that I believe God doesn't exist. I base this on reason and evidence and have seen nothing yet to convince me otherwise. If I do, then I will alter my view accordingly.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 05/01/2011 11:58
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

'No, I'm saying that I believe God doesn't exist. I base this on reason and evidence and have seen nothing yet to convince me otherwise. If I do, then I will alter my view accordingly.'

but Dark Matter does exist?

something that scientists say effect all around us.

something religions say god does.

What 'evidence' do you have that a god does not exist?

Boromart Posted on 05/01/2011 11:58
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

"Science seems to be say something is and then try and prove it."
Nope, science says is it possible that x causes y? Can we create experiments to prove or disprove?

Religion says that regardless that there is much evidence that the content of religious texts is made up bollox, we still believe what they say.

Religious types these days rely on the fact that we can never go back in time and actually witness the big bang, to prove it did happen. Because we cannot observe it then as far as they are concerned it didn't happen, and that allows them to breath life into their dying myths.

Of course we cannot go back in time and see god fashion the world, but that doesn't mean that both views are of equal value. They are not, the god one is a fairy tale with zero evidence.

north_east_invader Posted on 05/01/2011 12:03
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

"but Dark Matter does exist?"

I never said that. I said dark matter is a hypothesis. A holding idea to be tested.

"What 'evidence' do you have that a god does not exist?"

I have seen enough evidence to suggest natural processes are sufficient to explain a great many things without the need for an intelligent creator. I don't personally need to fill the gaps with faith.

Boromart Posted on 05/01/2011 12:05
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

"What 'evidence' do you have that a god does not exist?"

That old chestnut. What evidence do you have that dark matter doesn't exist? or that the flying spaghetti monster doesn't exist? You cannot prove that something doesn't exist. But that doesn't make it's existence any more plausible.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 05/01/2011 12:13
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

' have seen enough evidence to suggest natural processes are sufficient to explain a great many things without the need for an intelligent creator. I don't personally need to fill the gaps with faith.'


Ok i understand that.

But you said you had evidence that god did not exist.

What is this evidence?

I have no evidence that a god exists nor that a god does not exist.

north_east_invader Posted on 05/01/2011 12:16
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

"But you said you had evidence that god did not exist."

Did I ? re-read ...

I stated my belief and how I based this belief ... which is on reason and evidence, it doesn't say I have evidence god doesn't exist.

"No, I'm saying that I believe God doesn't exist. I base this on reason and evidence and have seen nothing yet to convince me otherwise. If I do, then I will alter my view accordingly."

Boromart Posted on 05/01/2011 12:16
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

so because there is no evidence that god doesn't exist you think that elevates the concept to the same likelihood or more than the scientific communities theories built on evidence?

there is no proof that the flying spaghetti monster doesn't exist, so is it just as likely as god?

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 05/01/2011 12:23
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

north_east_invader sorry what evidence do you have that makes you believe a god does not exist, that a god did not help create everything in some way?

is it more plausible that nothing created us, as stephen hawking would now have us believe?

Boromart Posted on 05/01/2011 12:29
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

the belief in a creator answers nothing.

Why do you feel that 'are you suggesting we were created by nothing' is less plausable than the creator theory?

If a creator did indeed create us, then who created the creator?

a) Nothing?
b) another creator?

If the answer is a, then it's just as likely that we were created from nothing as a creator was created from nothing. In which case your theory has an extra unnecessary step in.....the creator. Therefore it is more likely that we were created from nothing

If the answer is b, then who created that creator? Another creator? Ad infinitum.....that then answers nothing and leaves more gaps in the theory and is entirely unprovable and unsupported by any existing evidence.

Really, creationism is so full of holes, it's a joke as a theory.

north_east_invader Posted on 05/01/2011 12:41
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

"sorry what evidence do you have that makes you believe a god does not exist, that a god did not help create everything in some way?

is it more plausible that nothing created us, as stephen hawking would now have us believe?"

Because of the insurmountable evidence that allows things to be explained through natural processes across many disciplines. Biological, Cosmological etc. This does not require a creator so why should I invent one ?

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 05/01/2011 12:47
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

'it's just as likely that we were created from nothing as a creator was created from nothing'

you have made a valuable point 'just as likely'

the point is that no one knows who or what or if anything created us, or any reasons why (if there even are any)

north_east_invader Posted on 05/01/2011 12:51
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

"the point is that no one knows who or what or if anything created us, or any reasons why (if there even are any)"

The point is there is no reason to suggest it was. Just as there is no reason for me to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit.


Link: Russell's teapot

Boromart Posted on 05/01/2011 12:57
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

Razmond, but you do realise that you have truncated my entire statement to suit your purpose. you have entirely lost the flavour of my post.

The statement went on to comment that if it is just as likely that one being is created from nothing as another, then why invent an intermediary that creates everything?

That isn't just as likely it is far less likely.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 05/01/2011 13:00
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

you dont believe in the Big Bang Theory?

Do you believe any other Intelligent life forms in space apart from whats on Earth?

Kirkylane Posted on 05/01/2011 13:00
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

Raz: "no its a clue that they also tend to use a leap of faith to get the answers they sometimes want."

[^] That's over most people's heads here.

I wouldn't call creating a hypothesis a leap of faith, but when scientists start to reject evidence that contradicts their One True Theory, because they have so much vested in the old theory, then they are not doing rational science any more. They have created a mini-religion or religious cult.

Big Bang etc is a good example of this, there are other rational explanations, "climate change" is another.

north_east_invader Posted on 05/01/2011 13:08
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

A scientist can be irrational, blinkered, have clouded judgement or bias. The Scientific method does not and has neutrality built in. Its the benefit of publishing and peer review.

north_east_invader Posted on 05/01/2011 13:09
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

"you dont believe in the Big Bang Theory?"

I believe it is a reasonable theory.

"Do you believe any other Intelligent life forms in space apart from whats on Earth?"

I believe statistically its highly likely. Where/when/what/how and if we'll ever meet it are entirely different questions.

Boromart Posted on 05/01/2011 13:12
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

Big Bang on current evidence appears the most likely theory. kirklane, I don't think big bang is a good example, it has not been debunked. There are still oustanding questions and puzzles to solve but there is no smoking gun evidence that shows it to be incorrect.

Alien lifeforms, almost certainly lots of it. Although vast distances will always make it difficult to prove.

There are estimated at 400billion stars in the Milky Way, how many planets and moons? who knows 20trillion?

That is just this galaxy, there are estimated at least 500billion galaxies.

I like those odds!

centralscrutinizer Posted on 05/01/2011 13:22
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

Occams Razor would lead us to think there is no God (as in an old man sat on a cloud)

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 05/01/2011 13:23
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

so you do believe in other intelligent life, but just not one that created us?

'I believe it is a reasonable theory.'

does that mean you think something created us rather than we came from nothing?

north_east_invader Posted on 05/01/2011 13:30
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

"so you do believe in other intelligent life, but just not one that created us?"

Sure, why would I need to believe one created us ?

"does that mean you think something created us rather than we came from nothing?"

I believe we were created through natural processes. The nature of these processes are under debate. I don't believe an intelligence was or is required.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 05/01/2011 13:37
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

what was natural about the big bang?

as it created everything natural that we know.

What was the natural force used to create the big bang?

Boromart Posted on 05/01/2011 13:41
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

if you are claiming it wasn't natural then you are alluding that it was supernatural, what you think it was god's biggest firework? He would have to have long arms to stand back from that explosion!

Kirkylane Posted on 05/01/2011 13:45
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

There's no neutrality "built into" science, and peer review is very recent.

There is a method involving observation, hypothesis and empirical testing - that's worked pretty well.


Kirkylane Posted on 05/01/2011 13:46
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

The Big Bang was invented by a Catholic Priest, Lemaitre.

I'd put FACT here, but you'd think I was making it up.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 05/01/2011 13:46
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

Boromart no my point is that as we do not know anything about time before the Big Bang in the Theory who are we to say what was natural and what was unnatural about it?

we have no idea at all if force was applied or not.

how do we define something being natural when we dont know what is natural to it?

north_east_invader Posted on 05/01/2011 13:51
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

"There is a method involving observation, hypothesis and empirical testing - that's worked pretty well."

Okay, that still includes an inherent neutrality of the process. The fact that the results can then be repeatable by anyone - or not - removes the bias of the individual. As does the ability to find flaws in the testing methodology.

north_east_invader Posted on 05/01/2011 13:52
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

"what was natural about the big bang?"

There in lies the fun in finding out :)

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 05/01/2011 13:59
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

'I believe we were created through natural processes. '

why do you believe this? what evidence leads you to such a belief?

TheSmogMonster Posted on 05/01/2011 14:03
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

What supernatural process can you point to like Raz?

ron_manager Posted on 05/01/2011 14:12
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

Religous nuts, adapt there beliefs all the time to suit the scientific facts. It was not that long ago (and is still believed in many Christian groups) that the world was only 10 000 years old and now we have them arguing that God was behind the big bang theory.

Shakes head and puts palms to face.

north_east_invader Posted on 05/01/2011 14:14
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

"why do you believe this? what evidence leads you to such a belief?"

Why SHOULDN'T I believe this. Why should I invent a supernatural one where there is no evidence.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 05/01/2011 14:31
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

'Why should I invent a supernatural one where there is no evidence.'

what evidence do you have for it being natural?

I thought scientists still did not know the answer to what created the Big Bang.

I have no evidence either way, I have no idea what created this universe, i am not sure how you define something outside this unverse as 'natural'

unless you mean something happening without any applied force, applied force however is not necessarily supernatural

Kirkylane Posted on 05/01/2011 14:36
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

Invader - that's just magical thinking. There's nothing "inherently" neutral and confirmation bias is a massive problem in $cience.

If you set out believing in (say) the Big Bang you're going to view evidence that contradicts it as a statistical anomaly, or invent a confounding factor. A good scientist wouldn't, they'd chuck away the theory, and try and come up with a better one. But that's easier said than done.



ron_manager Posted on 05/01/2011 14:38
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

May I ask Razmond.

Do you believe in a god.

If so which one or how do you define what it, he, she is[:D]

north_east_invader Posted on 05/01/2011 14:48
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

"what evidence do you have for it being natural?"

We have evidence for many many processes that were assumed at one stage to be supernatural in nature being natural. Why should the birth of a universe be any different ? Until evidence comes along to suggest otherwise.

north_east_invader Posted on 05/01/2011 14:49
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

"Invader - that's just magical thinking. There's nothing "inherently" neutral and confirmation bias is a massive problem in $cience. "

I'd argue bias is a massive problem with scientists. The model is neutral, sometimes people are not.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 05/01/2011 15:05
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

like i have mentioned above a neither believe nor do not believe in a higher power of sorts.

The fact is I dont know. I am happy to say that.

The Big Bang Theory lends suggestion to god, which is why, like someone mentioned above, it was religion who created the theroy and science progressed it

centralscrutinizer Posted on 05/01/2011 15:13
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

What about that the idea that the Universe itself, including us, is God ?

TheSmogMonster Posted on 05/01/2011 15:14
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

This thread is painful.

Kirkylane Posted on 05/01/2011 15:16
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

I don't know where you get this "science is neutral" or "model is neutral" from - big supporters of science like Popper have always been careful to shoot this one down. You don't really get people arguing this anymore.

Do you really mean neutral or something else - empirical?


Kirkylane Posted on 05/01/2011 15:18
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

Might be of interest - news report from last year.

http://arxiv.org/abs/1007.1750

Tuesday, July 27, 2010

Big Bang Abandoned in New Model of the Universe

A new cosmology successfully explains the accelerating expansion of the universe without dark energy; but only if the universe has no beginning and no end.

As one of the few astrophysical events that most people are familiar with, the Big Bang has a special place in our culture. And while there is scientific consensus that it is the best explanation for the origin of the Universe, the debate is far from closed. However, it's hard to find alternative models of the Universe without a beginning that are genuinely compelling. 

That could change now with the fascinating work of Wun-Yi Shu at the National Tsing Hua University in Taiwan. Shu has developed an innovative new description of the Universe in which the roles of time space and mass are related in new kind of relativity.

Shu's idea is that time and space are not independent entities but can be converted back and forth between each other. In his formulation of the geometry of spacetime, the speed of light is simply the conversion factor between the two. Similarly, mass and length are interchangeable in a relationship in which the conversion factor depends on both the gravitational constant G and the speed of light, neither of which need be constant. 

So as the Universe expands, mass and time are converted to length and space and vice versa as it contracts.

This universe has no beginning or end, just alternating periods of expansion and contraction. In fact, Shu shows that singularities cannot exist in this cosmos.

It's easy to dismiss this idea as just another amusing and unrealistic model dreamed up by those whacky comsologists.

That is until you look at the predictions it makes. During a period of expansion, an observer in this universe would see an odd kind of change in the red-shift of bright objects such as Type-I supernovas, as they accelerate away. It turns out, says Shu, that his data exactly matches the observations that astronomers have made on Earth. 

This kind of acceleration is an ordinary feature of Shu's universe.

That's in stark contrast to the various models of the Universe based on the Big Bang. Since the accelerating expansion of the Universe was discovered, cosmologists have been performing some rather worrying contortions with the laws of physics to make their models work.

The most commonly discussed idea is that the universe is filled with a dark energy that is forcing the universe to expand at an increasing rate. For this model to work, dark energy must make up 75 per cent of the energy-mass of the Universe and be increasing at a fantastic rate. 

But there is a serious price to pay for this idea: the law of conservation of energy. The embarrassing truth is that the world's cosmologists have conveniently swept under the carpet one the of fundamental laws of physics in an attempt to square this circle.

That paints Shu's ideas in a slightly different perspective. There's no need to abandon conservation of energy to make his theory work.

That's not to say Shu's theory is perfect. Far from it. One of the biggest problems he faces is explaining the existence and structure of the cosmic microwave background, something that many astrophysicists believe to be the the strongest evidence that the Big Bang really did happen. The CMB, they say, is the echo of the Big bang. 

How it might arise in Shu's cosmology isn't yet clear but I imagine he's working on it.

Even if he finds a way, there will need to be some uncomfortable rethinking before his ideas can gain traction. His approach may well explain the Type-I supernova observations without abandoning conservation of energy but it asks us to give up the notion of the Big Bang, the constancy of the speed of light and to accept a vast new set of potential phenomenon related to the interchangeable relationships between mass, space and time. 

Rightly or wrongly, that's a trade off that many will find hard. Let's hope Shu sticks to his guns, if only for the sake of good old-fashioned debate.



Boromart Posted on 05/01/2011 15:34
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

Just a quick question supernatural vs. natural.

Has the existance of anything supernatural, ghosts, demons, telekinesis, horoscopes or absolutely anything ever been proven? Didn't think so, so that rules out a supernatural creator.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 05/01/2011 15:36
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

has ANYTHING before the big bang been proven?

would YOU class ANYTHING that existed before this universe existed as supernatural or natural to you?

north_east_invader Posted on 05/01/2011 15:41
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

Seeing as there is no evidence for anything supernatural to date, I would go for natural.

north_east_invader Posted on 05/01/2011 15:42
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

"The Big Bang Theory lends suggestion to god"

How so ???

Boromart Posted on 05/01/2011 15:43
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

The big bang theory does not lend a suggestion to god. The theory of "big bang -> big crunch -> big bang" has existed for sometime and there is no requirement for a creator in that theory or evidence of one. Steven Hawkings does of course allude that it could be a godly act, but most scientists wouldn't agree with that.


Shu's theory - has hardly had any scientific attention to break it and has already fallen down with big holes in it. Big Bang has been around much longer, has had billion sin scientific research thrown at it and still stands up as the most likely model, but with further 'i's to dot and 't's to cross to make a complete theoretical model.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 05/01/2011 15:44
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

go read the many Religious interpretations of the big bang theory.

Boromart Posted on 05/01/2011 15:50
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

No thanks Raz, I have zero interest in reading how the church intends to prolong it's myths through religo-psuedo-science. The scientific theories for Big Bang do not have God or anything supernatural lighting the fuse.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 05/01/2011 15:53
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

Catholic priest Georges Lemaître created the Big Bang Theory

Boromart Posted on 05/01/2011 15:55
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

"has ANYTHING before the big bang been proven?

would YOU class ANYTHING that existed before this universe existed as supernatural or natural to you?"

Why can't you answer the question with a straight bat? Is there any evidence EVER of anything supernatural? Ghosts, Gods, demons, seances, tarot cards, prayers etc? We both know the what the answer is, and we both know why.

There have been plenty of experiments performed for these things. I particularly remember reading about a double blind test in the US on 'the power of prayer'. Result was that the control group had almost identical (but slightly better) results than the people who were prayed for. Proof that prayer is a load of bollox. The church responded with 'we know it works, we have seen lots of examples' [|)]

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 05/01/2011 15:57
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

• SUPERNATURAL (adjective)
The adjective SUPERNATURAL has 1 sense:

1. not existing in nature or subject to explanation according to natural laws; not physical or material


'or anything supernatural lighting the fuse.'

you are suggesting that something known to us and this natural world created the big bang and not something that is not part of our natural laws as we know them?


TheSmogMonster Posted on 05/01/2011 15:58
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

Raz's comments are getting weirder.... recent religious interpretations of the big bang is a damning argument against religious 'science'. If it had all the answers why would it need to interpret anything?

Kirkylane, interesting read that there's all kinds of theories at the moment, one of the most recent is that we've underestimated the amount of mass in the universe because there's more big stars out there then we previously thought. I think we're a ways off finding out the truth about it all though.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 05/01/2011 15:59
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

would you class the outer body experience as supernatural?

also as we cant prove the big bang theory why cant it have a 'supernatural' element to it?

it seems your reasoning is that because we have no proof of something it cannot be part of a theory we have no proof as yet of.

Boromart Posted on 05/01/2011 16:03
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

He was a catholic, so what, that doesn't in any way shape or form put any evidence or weight to the idea (I'm not going to call it a theory, because it isn't really) that god created/started the big bang.

The equations for the theory do not have a constant for 'God'.


Boromart Posted on 05/01/2011 16:10
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

"ou are suggesting that something known to us and this natural world created the big bang and not something that is not part of our natural laws as we know them?"

nope that is not what I am suggesting. I am suggesting that the laws of physics were different at the dawn of our universe due to natural environmental factors, not due to some bearded old bloke on a cloud messing with a chemistry set.

It is almost impossible for us to model due to too many unknowns, but we know it must have been very different.

They were not 'supernatural', they were natural within the laws of physics within those conditions.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 05/01/2011 16:13
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

'dawn of our universe due to natural environmental factors, not due to some bearded old bloke on a cloud messing with a chemistry set.
'

we are talking about what, if anything, created our universe, not what our universe was like once created.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 05/01/2011 16:17
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

would you class the outer body experience as supernatural?

Boromart Posted on 05/01/2011 16:17
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

"would you class the outer body experience as supernatural?"
No, out of body experiences have been debunked in clinical tests, it is simply your brain playing tricks on you.

"also as we cant prove the big bang theory why cant it have a 'supernatural' element to it? "
because there is zero evidence of the supernatural and in fact pretty much all alleged supernatural sightings/visions/experiences have been debunked, just the big bloke in teh sky one left.

"it seems your reasoning is that because we have no proof of something it cannot be part of a theory we have no proof as yet of."
No the reasoning is that just because you can think of something it doesn't give it any credence. Evidence is the key.

Creating theories on theories on theories is a waste of time, is called fiction. You need to base it on some constants otherwise it has absolutely no credence whatsoever as a theory and is nothing more than blind faith in the supernatural.

north_east_invader Posted on 05/01/2011 16:18
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

"as we cant prove the big bang theory why cant it have a 'supernatural' element to it?"

But why SHOULD it have a supernatural element to it ? Why should you assume it does ? Why should I go looking for a supernatural element where there is no evidence to suggest one, much like Russell's teapot.

Every single supernatural event that has EVER been successfully investigated has been proven to have a completely natural explanation. Until that point changes its a waste, much as it is a waste trying to prove that Russell's teapot doesn't exist.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 05/01/2011 16:25
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

'not existing in nature or subject to explanation according to natural laws; not physical or material'

see above.

Are you suggestion that something that is not within todays naturals laws could have created the big bang all those years ago.

You are suggesting it has to be within our natural laws as of today?

'Creating theories on theories on theories is a waste of time, is called fiction. You need to base it on some constants otherwise it has absolutely no credence whatsoever as a theory and is nothing more than blind faith in the supernatural.'

agreed and was what i had been saying above earlier, scientific theories have been eveolved from other theories i.e. using the big bang theory as a basis and that is a leap of faith.

SplendidStuff Posted on 05/01/2011 16:26
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

This is turning painful now, out of body experiences??!!

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 05/01/2011 16:33
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

the generation virtual gaming will be using out of body experiencing technology, and medical operations in the future will be able to be done by a doctor in another location via out of body experience technology.

It has been explained by science, i just wondered if you classed it as supernatural as that is how it is oftern portrayed.

certainly not that long ago even the explanation of it would be class as supernatural.

Our laws of nature chance with a better understanding.

SplendidStuff Posted on 05/01/2011 16:38
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

Is virtual reality or remote surgery supernatural?

No.

Boromart Posted on 05/01/2011 16:40
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

"Are you suggestion that something that is not within todays naturals laws could have created the big bang all those years ago." - I am suggesting that the universe had very different environmental factors to now.

"agreed and was what i had been saying above earlier, scientific theories have been eveolved from other theories i.e. using the big bang theory as a basis and that is a leap of faith." -- the bit you missed is that at the base of that set of theories is PROVEN through experiments/observation/evidence before the next layer of theory is added. Stark contrast to just making things up like religion tends to do. With layers and layers of stuff added onto a foundation of guess work.

Religion stands on clay feet, Science stands on granite. But you know this already.

Boromart Posted on 05/01/2011 16:42
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

are you suggesting that virtual gaming is 'supernatural'? I think you need help.

Although I am sure if hooked up a 14th century catholic bishop to a virtual reality machine I'm sure they would come up with some boolix about god speaking to them and wisking them to far away lands that were probably heaven [:P]

miltonkeynesaverage Posted on 05/01/2011 17:25
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

Religion - is that the one with all the bombs?

SplendidStuff Posted on 05/01/2011 17:55
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

Not forgetting the fact that the person still knows they are in their body and can feel all their senses.


RAZ has gone a little crazy, but not unexpected.

north_east_invader Posted on 05/01/2011 17:58
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

"Our laws of nature chance with a better understanding."

Hypothesis are tested, proven or disproven, adjusted/changed/replaced and tried again and we develop our theories as we learn based on the evidence ?

Yes. That'd be science.

jonniovdaboro Posted on 05/01/2011 18:33
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

How can you compare science to religeon. Religeon is regugated myth handed down from generation to generation from a time when peoples understanding of the universe was limited , science is quest for the actual truth there is lots of evidence to support certain scientific theories all religeon has is faith and folk tails its not even comparable

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 06/01/2011 07:40
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

'are you suggesting that virtual gaming is 'supernatural'? I think you need help. '

no i am simply suggesting that when you use the term 'supernatural' in a misguided sense.

Things are only 'supernatural' if we do not understand them and if you cant fit them into our natural laws.

Virtual Gaming now to someone a 100 yrs ago would have been supernatural.

see the Star Trek series from the 60s for many supernatural technologies i.e. mobile phones.

So to suggest that something supernatural could not have happened when the universe was created is an odd suggestion if as things stand we do not understand the complexities of its creation.

north_east_invader Posted on 06/01/2011 08:17
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

Things are only supernatural if they are not of natural origin. If we do not understand them to be natural, we may BELIEVE they are supernatural but that doesn't make them so.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 06/01/2011 08:21
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

thats kinda true, its more to do with being able to explain what is happening and how it happens

so mobile phones in the 60s was a supernatural fantasy, now they are just part of natural life.

if a ghostly spirit appeared, it would be classed as supernatural, if then a scientist explained how that spirit appeared it would then just be natural.

north_east_invader Posted on 06/01/2011 08:29
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

Not really, something is either supernatural or natural, our understanding is irrelevant to that point. We may believe something to be supernatural, but we would be wrong.

Mobile phones weren't really a supernatural fantasy, they were science fiction. I'd be surprised if many from the sixties seeing walkie talkies and similar believed them to be of supernatural origin, being familiar with electronics albeit in a much more simplified form. This would not be the same as for example a cave man witnessing someone with a sub machine gun, or a flame thrower.

There is no evidence to suggest anything supernatural exists, so again, much like the teapot it isn't something we need to disprove. If in the investigation new evidence suggests we should then I'll be all ears.


Razmond_HWDR Posted on 06/01/2011 08:37
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

• SUPERNATURAL (adjective)
The adjective SUPERNATURAL has 1 sense:

1. not existing in nature or subject to explanation according to natural laws; not physical or material



Would you class those living organisms they found living on the outside of the space station supernatural as they have as yet been unable to explain how they were able to live in such conditions i.e. in space?

north_east_invader Posted on 06/01/2011 08:50
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

Again, because we don't understand or can't explain something that doesn't make it supernatural.

It may appear supernatural, we may believe it to be supernatural - that doesn't make it supernatural.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 06/01/2011 08:53
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

SUPERNATURAL - 'or subject to explanation according to natural laws'

would you class them as natural then?


what do you class as 'supernatural'? only fictional characters like ghosts and ghouls?

north_east_invader Posted on 06/01/2011 08:55
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

Just because we cannot as yet explain something by natural laws that doesn't mean it can't be explained by natural laws.

Something isn't supernatural or not because we can't yet understand it, thats a very arrogant trait of humanity.

Boromart Posted on 06/01/2011 08:57
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

north_east_invader, very good definition!

Raz not sure where you got your definition. Here are dictionary.com's definitions, when talking about a god numbers 2 and 4 are particularly pertinent:

of, pertaining to, or being above or beyond what is natural; unexplainable by natural law or phenomena; abnormal.
2.
of, pertaining to, characteristic of, or attributed to god or a deity.
3.
of a superlative degree; preternatural: a missile of supernatural speed.
4.
of, pertaining to, or attributed to ghosts, goblins, or other unearthly beings; eerie; occult.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 06/01/2011 09:04
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

'unexplainable by natural law '

thats what i have been saying.


'Just because we cannot as yet explain something by natural laws that doesn't mean it can't be explained by natural laws.'

you are suggesting that nothing is unexplainable by natural law? because at somepoint in the next billion or so years we will be able to explain it?

You then accredit nothing to being supernatural and the above definition of if unexplainable by natural law you feel to be false?

ron_manager Posted on 06/01/2011 09:11
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

Everything is explainable its whether we have the inteligence and technology to explain it, so by proxy the supernatural does not exsist rather a lack of understanding lives in the void or gap in knowledge.

north_east_invader Posted on 06/01/2011 09:14
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

Why do you feel that because we don't specifically understand something that it must therefore be supernatural ?

"well if I can't explain it then it must be". How arrogant is that ?

I'm certainly suggesting that I believe nothing is unexplainable by natural law, yes, until evidence suggests otherwise but that hasn't happened yet.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 06/01/2011 09:20
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

totally agree.

boromart gave 'supernatural' credence by suggesting an occurance that is not natural must be supernatural.

'if you are claiming it wasn't natural then you are alluding that it was supernatural, what you think it was god's biggest firework? He would have to have long arms to stand back from that explosion!'

But if there is an intervention i.e. applied force by something to create something and would alter what would have naturally happened that is NOT supernatural.

Boromart Posted on 06/01/2011 09:27
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

I'm not quite sure where you are heading but, the concept of a diety is something supernatural. They defy the natural laws of physics. Resurrection, rebirth, water to wine that is supernatural.

The events that occurred at the big bang are not necessarily supernatural and so far have been fairly well modelled using natural laws which due to all mass being at a singularity act different to how we see them today. There is no requirement for supernatural, it is natural but the effects are different due to the environment being entirely different.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 06/01/2011 09:35
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

Boromart inorder for you to say what you said you must have an idea of what was before the big bang.

we are talking about how the universe was created not how it started out.

If you are suggesting before this universe nothing supernatural existed thats fair enough, i dont understand where you base that theory on mind.

Hawking spoke about the possibility of the creation of multi-verses, do you consider that happening as natural or supernatural? like for example resurrection you class as supernatural.

Mind people have died before and been resurrected back to life albiet for a very short period.

north_east_invader Posted on 06/01/2011 09:45
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

Depends on your definition of resurrection... or do you mean resuscitation.

"If you are suggesting before this universe nothing supernatural existed thats fair enough, i dont understand where you base that theory on mind."

The fact that there is nothing found to have been supernatural to date, so I find it more intriguing where you base the theory on that it exists.

... somewhere between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit.....

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 06/01/2011 09:52
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

i mean when a dr tells someone they have died for so many minutes, or the case of the man in south american who died miles away from anywhere and his friend carried him back on horse and when they got back he was breathing again.

you could say the last story is dubious, but just as dubious as the Jesus Christ story.

'so I find it more intriguing where you base the theory on that it exists. '

i dont think anything 'supernatural' does exist, my point with BoroMart is that we have no idea what was around before this universe, so to presume anything about what was around is curious to say the least.

north_east_invader Posted on 06/01/2011 09:58
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

"i mean when a dr tells someone they have died for so many minutes, or the case of the man in south american who died miles away from anywhere and his friend carried him back on horse and when they got back he was breathing again."

Which will have a natural explanation.

"you could say the last story is dubious, but just as dubious as the Jesus Christ story."

Which is pretty bloody dubious ! :-)

"we have no idea what was around before this universe, so to presume anything about what was around is curious to say the least."

Hypothesise, test, observe. There is no reason to assume supernatural, the default would be to look for the natural explanation.

Boromart Posted on 06/01/2011 10:00
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

"If you are suggesting before this universe nothing supernatural existed thats fair enough, i dont understand where you base that theory on mind."
It all depends on your definition of supernatural. If by supernatural you are talking an omnipotent diety, eg Mahweh then any assumption that such a being existed is simply unlikely. Just because you can perceive that something could have existed it doesn't make the likelihood of it existing any higher.

"Hawking spoke about the possibility of the creation of multi-verses, do you consider that happening as natural or supernatural? like for example resurrection you class as supernatural."
Multiverses in this theory would be a natural phenomenom and nothing to do with with voodoo and sky fairies.

"Mind people have died before and been resurrected back to life albiet for a very short period." - they may have stopped breathing but were not clinically dead as the brains functions had not yet died. So technically they were not quite dead.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 06/01/2011 10:02
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

'It all depends on your definition of supernatural. If by supernatural you are talking an omnipotent diety, eg Mahweh then any assumption that such a being existed is simply unlikely. Just because you can perceive that something could have existed it doesn't make the likelihood of it existing any higher.'

I am not suggesting anything.

No one has any idea what was around before our universe.

Do you have any ideas about what was around before the universe existed?

ZippytheHippy Posted on 06/01/2011 10:02
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

"Multiverses in this theory would be a natural phenomenom and nothing to do with with voodoo and sky fairies."

Unlike what you have just written then?

Boromart Posted on 06/01/2011 10:06
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

of course no one has any idea, but that doesn't make all possibilities equal. The possibility that the solution is some diety sat on a cloud saying "right now lets light this baby and make my little universe for me to play with" is simply unlikely. It also leads to a huge number of other questions like who created the diety.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 06/01/2011 10:06
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

'Multiverses in this theory would be a natural phenomenom and nothing to do with with voodoo and sky fairies.'

he classes them natural in the sense that they just happen without any applied force by something alien to the process.

'voodoo and sky fairies.'

fantasy?

'they may have stopped breathing but were not clinically dead as the brains functions had not yet died. So technically they were not quite dead.'

was Jesus technically dead? as you seem to class what happen to him as supernatural.

Boromart Posted on 06/01/2011 10:07
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

the real questions is "was he ever alive" an/or "was he actually supernatural".

First one maybe, second one no.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 06/01/2011 10:08
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

Boromart i agree, like for example if it was created from nothing then who created the nothingness?


Razmond_HWDR Posted on 06/01/2011 10:09
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

Boromart so you agree that it was probably just a feel good story then?

and that 'supernatural' is more fiction than anything else?

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 06/01/2011 10:12
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

'Hypothesise, test, observe. There is no reason to assume supernatural, the default would be to look for the natural explanation.'

thats a great idea. How do you explain, not what created us, but what was around before everything we see and know, and even those parts of the universe we dont know?

at some point you must need evidence?

CornwallBORO Posted on 06/01/2011 10:14
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

North East Invader, are you stupid? dark matter is not observable, it is an assumed hypothesis, that is invisible, it could be 'anything', in essence, it could be the god particle.

north_east_invader Posted on 06/01/2011 10:15
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

"at some point you must need evidence?"

Correct, that would be the research, experimentation and observation part. Have a look at what their doing at the LHC and similar.

Boromart Posted on 06/01/2011 10:17
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

I'm not sure the bible is particularly a feel good story. Bits of it maybe.

"and that 'supernatural' is more fiction than anything else?" I guess that is one way to describe it. I don't like the phrase supernatural, for something to be truly supernatural it can never be understood, and I would like to think that one day we will understand why and how the universe is here

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 06/01/2011 10:17
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

'Have a look at what their doing at the LHC and similar.'

they are looking at the possibility of how the universe could have been created.

NOT what was around before this universe.

or are they doing that too? You been reading too much Dan Brown?

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 06/01/2011 10:20
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

boromart you brought up the phrase 'supernatural'.

i do not like it either, and think one day it will be understood and once we find intelligent life elsewhere that will help us understand more.

To rule out any possibility by classing it as 'supernatural' is curious.

CornwallBORO Posted on 06/01/2011 10:22
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

I guess before we talk about god, we need to know our own history, and when our planet was inhabited by offworld humans from another system, or within our system. One thing is observable, apollo 17 retrieved this artifact for these purposes. Kennedy died for his desire to create a joint Russian mission to the moon. However, the USA did not want to share this technology, or the truth about our origins.


Link: Robotic head

Boromart Posted on 06/01/2011 10:27
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

I brought up supernatural as a label for a 'god' or diety something that can never be understood due to it being fiction.

Applying the term supernatural (using 'god' as a proxy) to something that likely did happen, the birth of our universe, is something I don't like.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 06/01/2011 10:32
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

''if you are claiming it wasn't natural then you are alluding that it was supernatural, what you think it was god's biggest firework? He would have to have long arms to stand back from that explosion!''

no you suggested if it wasnt natural then it MUST be supernatural.

I gave the example above that an applied force does not have to be supernatural.

I have said before that a god can be many many forms. It does not have to be a Zeus type figure, the one you go by.

Boromart Posted on 06/01/2011 10:49
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

see thread title!

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 06/01/2011 10:53
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

yes i alluded that this Dark Matter that effects all around us and is important to our existance but is as yet unproven but we know it exists could be our god.

i did not suggest that it had supernatural powers, or thats its supernaturals powers as dark matter created the universe.

you brought up supernatural.

Kirkylane Posted on 06/01/2011 10:59
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

NEI - there's no "model" there's just a scientific method. It doesn't solve the problem of confirmation bias which is massive now and very apparent in this discussion.






Kirkylane Posted on 06/01/2011 11:06
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

We can't weigh stars and galaxies so we have to infer their mass. To conform to the Big Bang Theory + what may be very dubious estimates of distance and velocity, requires a Fudge Factor.

That's all Dark Matter is - a Fudge Factor in an equation. [B)] That's not science. If we drop the quasi-religious dogma (invented by a Catholic Priest) of a Big Bang, then we don't need Dark Matter and scientists can return to building theories based on observation, rather than dogma.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 06/01/2011 11:15
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

Kirkylane - i thought that was Higgs boson, which is something that is not proven but many theories use it to confirm the validity of them. Big Bang Theory is one, without the Higgs boson the big bang theory would not stand.

north_east_invader Posted on 06/01/2011 11:19
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

CornwallBORO - yes ... have you read every part of the thread in context ? I have not said dark matter is observable. I have suggested that you make observations from experiments. Just because something is not observable with the eye, it doesn't mean it is not detectable - or that we will learn to detect, or even observe it.

north_east_invader Posted on 06/01/2011 11:20
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

Kirkylane - it is a hypothesis.

"NEI - there's no "model" there's just a scientific method. It doesn't solve the problem of confirmation bias which is massive now and very apparent in this discussion."

Peer review, repeating experiments and the ability for others to study a chosen methodology and propose ideas/changes/flaws goes someway toward this.

Boromart Posted on 06/01/2011 11:24
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

"yes i alluded that this Dark Matter that effects all around us and is important to our existance but is as yet unproven but we know it exists"
We don't know it exists at all.

" could be our god.

i did not suggest that it had supernatural powers,"
God is traditionally a supernatural diety, hence the term supernatural was brought up. God is a fictional supernatural conscience. When people start to believe in god, and that he created the universe, then they are attaching the phrase supernatural to the creation of the universe by proxy. That is the bit I don't like.

the universe arrived or always was and what a wonderful thing it is, it is a natural phenomena, because I can see it, or some of it, it is real in every sense of the word (lets not get all existential please [:D] ), it isn't supernatural it's birth isn't supernatural. The supernatural belongs in works of fiction and imagination.

It seems to be a modern trend to talk about god as some kind of all encompassing term for the unknown/unproven wonders of the universe. I don't like that either, it's lazy romantiscism and an attempt to make the religious zealots feel that they were right all along, when in fact they are most likely wrong.

north_east_invader Posted on 06/01/2011 11:28
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

Actually CornwallBORO, I hadn't read your second post, I apologise for replying and giving your well reasoned argument credence. Robotic head ? give me strength. *sigh* ... Plazmuh ? found a friend for you [:D]

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 06/01/2011 11:31
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

many things are god like, god is a term for a higher being, a term for greatness.

God is supposed to be all around us etc etc.

like i said god could take many different forms.

'traditional' depends on what book you read or what religion you follow.

Like someone pointed out earlier everything will at some point be able to be explained, maybe a god will turn up and he does many great things but that will in no way make that god, whatever it be, be 'supernatural'

you like to associate god with fairies in the sky and thats up to you.

PP15 Posted on 06/01/2011 11:32
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

I watching Italian football on ESPN.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 06/01/2011 11:33
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

'when in fact they are most likely wrong.'

you base that on nothing, as you do not know the unkown.

and you expect a god to be a fairy in the sky or a zeus type character.

north_east_invader Posted on 06/01/2011 11:36
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

I tend to associate God with a concept of an intelligent being that allegedly can control or influence our lives, the planet, the galaxy, the universe. Something with a plan/motive/direction that can effect things. That in essence there is a belief that there is an intelligence behind nature.

I don't specifically associate them with "fairies in the sky", I refer to them as that as I think the idea of a god is just as nuts as the idea of a fairy in the sky. In most other cases if someone came home claiming they were talking to their invisible friend, they'd be referred for psyche evaluation.

Boromart Posted on 06/01/2011 11:37
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

god is also a consciousness in almost all faiths and therefore applying that title to natural events is plain daft. God is the solar wind and the big bang, and the running water....give me a break, there are clearer labels than 'God' which has so much baggage attached.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 06/01/2011 11:39
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

is it daft because all faiths are correct?

north_east_invader Posted on 06/01/2011 11:41
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

As I mentioned earlier in the thread Razmond_HWDR it does seem to me you are confusing or interchanging the term "god" with nature. God does imply an intelligence.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 06/01/2011 11:42
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

if something created us the universe and everything but had no control on what we did next would you class that as a godly creation?

i guess some people class creation as godly whereas others think control is what godly means.

Boromart Posted on 06/01/2011 11:43
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

all faiths cannot be correct. They contradict each other to the point that they are absolutely mutually exclusive.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 06/01/2011 11:43
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

'God does imply an intelligence.'

an intelligence to create or an intelligence to control?

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 06/01/2011 11:46
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

Boromart are you suggesting one of those faiths could have some credence?

Kirkylane Posted on 06/01/2011 11:46
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

By peer review do you mean the peer review publication process?


north_east_invader Posted on 06/01/2011 11:47
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

"an intelligence to create or an intelligence to control?"

either/or. An intelligence. The suggestion that behind natural processes is an influencing intelligence and that these processes just don't happen naturally of their own accord.

Boromart Posted on 06/01/2011 11:48
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

"i guess some people class creation as godly whereas others think control is what godly means"

Well all organised religions and those who worship with them believe it means control. Since that is 99.999% of the Theist population then I think it is far to say that the term God implies control.

north_east_invader Posted on 06/01/2011 11:50
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

Kirkylane - I mean by the very ability of people to be able to read a published study, examine the results, re-create the experiment (and the results if it is so true and repeatable) and the abilty for people to examine, find holes in methodology, suggest their own changes, and publish their own findings based upon this if they feel they contradict/improve/back up the original findings.

Thats the beauty of science, its open to others to prove/disprove/back up/find fault. I can't just make a wild claim "BLACK is WHITE" - I would have to back up my claim, and others would be able to rip my claim apart.

ron_manager Posted on 06/01/2011 11:51
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

Empirical Science study rocks[8D]

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 06/01/2011 11:52
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

Godly means control

'Well all organised religions and those who worship with them believe it means control. '

to be godly means you control people and things.

all religions believe that?


Boromart Posted on 06/01/2011 11:58
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

"Boromart are you suggesting one of those faiths could have some credence?"
oh go on I will bite, I'm so bored at work today. You know what I am saying, they are all wrong.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 06/01/2011 12:00
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

'influencing intelligence and that these processes just don't happen naturally of their own accord.'

i have never stated that a natural process has a hand of god in it.

I used Dark Matter in relation to God as it is something we cannot prove but we believe it has an effect on us.


Boromart Posted on 06/01/2011 12:01
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

if you know otherwise then please explain.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 06/01/2011 12:03
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

boromart - so a god does not necessarily be of a consciousness ?

Boromart Posted on 06/01/2011 12:04
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

"Dark Matter in relation to God" are you suggesting that Dark Matter might have a conscience?

Boromart Posted on 06/01/2011 12:08
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

I think you misunderstood my earlier post. The "if you know better one was related to"

your statement "to be godly means you control people and things.

all religions believe that?"

north_east_invader Posted on 06/01/2011 12:09
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

"I used Dark Matter in relation to God as it is something we cannot prove but we believe it has an effect on us."

So you confuse a hypothesis still to be tested based on observed evidence with blind faith with no evidence ?

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 06/01/2011 12:20
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

what evidence do we currently have of Dark Matter?

north_east_invader Posted on 06/01/2011 12:24
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

We have evidence that there is an effect that is caused by something - this isn't the same as God - we're back at the start of this thread again now [^][:D]

Kirkylane Posted on 06/01/2011 12:25
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

NEI -

Proof that the universe is cyclical! [:D]

north_east_invader Posted on 06/01/2011 12:26
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

Kirkylane - [:D][^]

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 06/01/2011 12:33
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

ok reading up on it, evidence found by the Hubble telescope in 2009 regarding Dark Matter found -

'The Hubble Space Telescope has uncovered a strong new line of evidence that galaxies are embedded in halos of dark matter'

'By looking at the Perseus galaxy cluster, Hubble discovered a large number of small galaxies that have remained intact while larger galaxies around them are being ripped apart by the gravitational tug of other galaxies.'

'Cosmologists estimate that dark matter comprises 23 percent of all energy in the cosmos. An equally mysterious “dark energy,” which drives galaxies apart, is thought to take up another 73 percent or so. The ordinary matter that we can see is believed to represent only four percent of the total mass of the Universe.'


Kirkylane Posted on 06/01/2011 12:34
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

ron_manager

$cience is post-modern now. Ask a cosmologist or a Climate $cientist about falsifiability, and you get mutterings and appeals to authority worthy of a Druid.

It was good while it lasted.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 06/01/2011 12:39
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

so from recent evidence, albiet indirect evidence, we have found out that Dark Matter protects small galaxies with a halo around the galaxy.

from evidence you see no god like comparison?

north_east_invader Posted on 06/01/2011 12:49
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

No, I see an interpretation based on fable, stories and conditioning. Seeing patterns/similarities that aren't there based on culture - something that Humans are good at.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 06/01/2011 12:54
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

forget the halo. it protects small galagixes from the dark energy.

you do not see any qualities of god in this evidence.

Granted it can be interpreted in many ways, but you cannot see how dark matter could be interpreted to be considered godly from evidence?


north_east_invader Posted on 06/01/2011 12:57
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

I can see how some people could (in my opinion) mistakenly interpret "god" into many things, and do. This doesn't make it correct.

There is no logical reason to think that a natural explanation will not be found ... and no logical reason that a supernatural one should be considered without evidence to suggest it, of which there is none.

two_banks_of_four Posted on 06/01/2011 13:02
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

If you are going to discuss the philosphy of science do keep up kirky, post-modernism is sooooo last century! Falsifiability, just a construct of langauge with no basis in reality or history is even older.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 06/01/2011 13:02
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

but this is the evidence you talk of, and now even this evidence you dont conisder worthy, you require further evidence to substantiate this evidence.

Before, you were happy that Dark Matter had evidence, and because of such evidence it was able to distance itself from being considered godly.

I am not saying Dark Matter is supernatural, leave that to boromart, i am suggesting evidence of it shows godly qualities, the protection from something that could harm something.

Is this not the evidence you talk of?

two_banks_of_four Posted on 06/01/2011 13:07
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

'the protection from something that could harm something'

is the ozone layer also 'godly'. How about the magnetosphere?

Kirkylane Posted on 06/01/2011 13:15
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

Two_banks - says who?

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 06/01/2011 13:16
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

you have brought the scale right down.

[:D]


Link: hubble finds dark matter

Boromart Posted on 06/01/2011 13:21
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

"you base that on nothing, as you do not know the unkown."

No, I base it on the fact that despite centuries of attempting prove a god there is still zero shred of evidence. It is the theists who are basing their belief on 'nothing', that is why it is called faith.

I am well aware that lack of evidence isn't entire proof, but it doesn't give the same weight to all theories and the god theory is a weak one full of bigger holes than anything scientists have theorised.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 06/01/2011 13:29
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

also despite centuries of attempting to prove what created the universe there is still zero shred of evidence

north_east_invader Posted on 06/01/2011 13:32
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

... but a lot of pointers, theories that have grown and expanded as our understanding has. This again is not the same as a blind belief in a god.

Boromart Posted on 06/01/2011 13:33
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

"I am not saying Dark Matter is supernatural, leave that to boromart, i am suggesting evidence of it shows godly qualities, the protection from something that could harm something."

as mentioned earlier humans are sadly very good at seeing patterns and misinterpretting them [|)] well done for conforming to the stereotype.

So if Dark Matter is holy, created divinely to protect solar systems then why can't people be protected by some phenomena from tornado's and tsunami's and volcanoes? If it was gods will to protect then why let so many people die? Why do we age and die? why have disease? It seems you have picked 1 effect and summised that this is proof of god (whatever god may be) and ignored all the other existing CONTRARY evidence.

You even missed the fact that other larger galaxies where being ripped apart close by, that is ungodly by your rational, with far more possibly habitable planets being destroyed. If Dark Matter protecting a galaxy is proof of a god, then surely black holes sucking solar systems in is proof that a god doesn't exist?

You are taking one piece of evidence applying a huge faith leap to it, ignoring all contradictory evidence and conjuring a God out of it. That is some trick.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 06/01/2011 13:38
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

no i am not doing anything with the evidence.

it was said on here the Dark Matter had no comparison to god at all and that Dark Matter had evidence as if to prove it was nothing like god.

This is the best evidence we have of Dark Matter, and i feel it is strange to say that this evidence proves it has no comparison to god.

I noticed the galaxies being torn apart by Dark Energy (73% of universe)

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 06/01/2011 13:43
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

north_east_invader these are theories and not fact. They are often based on other theories, or many theories regarding the same thing i.e. multi-verses and starting from nothing and the big bang.

None of it PROVEN.

Boromart Posted on 06/01/2011 13:48
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

"I noticed the galaxies being torn apart by Dark Energy (73% of universe)"

they were being torn apart by gravity not dark energy.

Anyway you didn't answer....if you perceive that it is godly that these galaxys seem to be protected by the dark matter, then by that rationale it must mean that the other galaxys, the bigger ones which are being destroyed are ungodly, or to put it another way evidence of a lack of god. Correct?

north_east_invader Posted on 06/01/2011 13:50
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

"None of it PROVEN."

But based on a grounding of observation and hypothesis to test. Nobody is saying it IS proven. Defining a hypothesis to test based on evidence is a completely different processes to blindly believing something on faith.

We are going round in circles now.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 06/01/2011 14:04
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

i agree , and i agree we are going around in circles.

to say Dark Matter could be our god is not believing in faith.

All we have found out about Dark Matter so far shows protection.

If it also possesses other god like qualities surely Dark Matter Could Be Our God?

I am not saying it is or isnt i am simply not dismissing it as an option.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 06/01/2011 14:06
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

Boromart
or that Dark Energy is not godly.

north_east_invader Posted on 06/01/2011 14:26
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

to say Dark Matter could be our god is not believing in faith.

It is exactly that, it is hypothesising based on faith in a god. There is no evidence to support a god, but much to support natural laws of the universe.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 06/01/2011 15:00
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

i am basing this god similarity with the attributes of a god not Zeus or any specific god from a story.

hypothesising based godly attributes. Which you seem to suggest that the attributes of Dark Matter going by the evidence such no similarities what so ever.

north_east_invader Posted on 06/01/2011 15:33
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

Zeus, Allah, Buddah, Thor or my personal favourite, the flying spaghetti monster ... all the same to me. God - A God, any god, person or attributes.

You are basing a hypothesis on fables, stories and faith. There is no reasonable grounds to make that hypothesis, (although you can make it, and feel free to test it). There are many logical and reasonable ones to derive a concept of dark matter from, although that too needs to be tested.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 06/01/2011 15:40
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

no I am not i am basing on the attributes on what we consider godly to be.

I said something that is a creator.

you said something that is a controller.

those are attributes

as is a protector.

Why cant Dark Matter have the same attributes we also attribute to being godly?

north_east_invader Posted on 06/01/2011 15:52
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

I never said something that IS a controller, I may have suggested control as a possible attribute. All the way through I just referred to an intelligence.

If you are simply saying now that natural processes have attributes which some people also attribute to a god or gods, sure. It doesn't make them gods work though, just people not understanding the natural processes.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 06/01/2011 16:04
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

are you saying that you have evidence that Dark Matter is just a natural process?

we know very little about it as far as i'm aware, the most up to date evidence was what i supplied earlier which did to say if it was a natural process of not.

'I may have suggested control as a possible attribute'

Are you saying Dark Matter could not have control as a possible attribute?

BarnesBoroFC Posted on 06/01/2011 16:06
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

Are you lot still flipping arguing. You all could have just researched what the flip dark matter is by now.

I'm really disappointed this debate has turned into some silly rhyming thread post 150...

north_east_invader Posted on 06/01/2011 16:35
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

"are you saying that you have evidence that Dark Matter is just a natural process?"

I'm saying I believe everything can be explained through natural processes. I am also saying there is no reason to suggest otherwise.

"Are you saying Dark Matter could not have control as a possible attribute?"

Again, control implies an intelligence. The fact that there is a gravitational influence is clear and what leads us to the hypothesis of dark matter in the first place.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 06/01/2011 16:43
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

it has gravitational influence in the same way any other matter has gravitational influence.

All we know regarding that in any detail is that their is an unknown gravitational influence that we class as Dark Matter.

You are saying you will not attribute control in any way to Dark Matter because natural process, yet it was natural process that created us.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 06/01/2011 16:45
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

strange that you consider dark matter, something we know very little about, to be something with no intelligence yet you think intelligent life apart from on earth is possible.

ron_manager Posted on 06/01/2011 16:57
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

Raz your like a terrier with a sausage in its gob.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 06/01/2011 17:02
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

have you seen a picture of me ron?

miltonkeynesaverage Posted on 06/01/2011 17:03
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

If you seriously think dark matter is god you really need to leave the crack pipe alone for a bit.


[ref]

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 06/01/2011 17:07
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

i seriously dont know what it is, thats a scientifc explanation currently

north_east_invader Posted on 06/01/2011 17:09
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

"strange that you consider dark matter, something we know very little about, to be something with no intelligence yet you think intelligent life apart from on earth is possible."

On balance, many things are possible, the question is how probable. There is no evidence to suggest life in such a form exists, does that mean it can't exist ?, of course not. Is it a god ? extremely doubtful.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 06/01/2011 17:17
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

so are you now saying that life in such a format may exist?

i said god like attributes, one being control. But control you dismissed as it would have to be intelligent. Meaning you assume Dark Matter could in no way be intelligent. Many leaps in faith and nothing scientific about your approach.

we cannot assume that intelligent life out there is in exactly the same format as we are.

north_east_invader Posted on 06/01/2011 17:22
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

Dark Matter Could Be Our God
Dark Matter Could Be God
Dark Matter Could Be a God
Dark Matter Could have God like attributes
Dark Matter Could Be intelligent life
Dark Matter Could Be life

which is it ?

Again, you don't seem to follow the method of hypothesising, testing and observing. There is nothing to suggest it should be alive, and the hypothesis under test is that it is "Dark Matter", odds are at some point that will be proven or disproven. If there is ever any evidence to suggest something is alive, another hypothesis will be formed and undergo the same scrutiny ... odds are though, that won't happen,

"we cannot assume that intelligent life out there is in exactly the same format as we are."

That is absolutely correct, but a very different statement than "Dark Matter Could Be Our God"

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 06/01/2011 17:32
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

"Dark Matter Could Be Our God"

which i stand by.

we have evidence of dark matter, the hypothesising was done a decade ago we now are able to look at dark matter and what it does.

'Dark Matter Could Be Our God
Dark Matter Could Be God
Dark Matter Could Be a God
Dark Matter Could have God like attributes
Dark Matter Could Be intelligent life
Dark Matter Could Be life'

are they all different?

lets take Our God and Intelligent Life. You said a god had to be intelligent, you then came up with Dark Matter is not intelligent. I am not sure again where you tested this theory???

north_east_invader Posted on 06/01/2011 17:39
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

Now we get onto the probable part.

If it your intention to get me to say that there is the tiniest remotest possible chance, albeit statistically and based on no logic, reason, premise or previous scientific discovery ? Then yes.

Is it so ?, chances are almost certainly not.

We do not, by the way know what dark matter is. We have only observed its effects, and I believe it was first discussed somewhere in the 30s or 40s.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 06/01/2011 17:42
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

'We do not, by the way know what dark matter is.'

finally.

but you think it could not be intelligent and could not have the ability to hold control over something in some premise?

north_east_invader Posted on 06/01/2011 17:52
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

"finally?" where have I said we know what it is ?

"but you think it could not be intelligent and could not have the ability to hold control over something in some premise?"

I do not think it is intelligent, there is no reason or evidence to suggest it is, because of this there is no evidence to suggest control. Influence is another matter, and clearly there is gravitational influence.


Vasily_Rats Posted on 06/01/2011 22:11
Dark Matter Could Be Our God


Dark Vader.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 07/01/2011 07:22
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

'We do not, by the way know what dark matter is.'

'I do not think it is intelligent, there is no reason or evidence to suggest it is'

the problem with the above is that; correct there is no evidence nor reason to suggest intelligence, but also there is no evidence nor reason to suggest NO intelligence.

You have opted for it having no intelligence with no evidence nor any reason. Because as you pointed out 'We do not, by the way know what dark matter is.'.

A question was asked earlier regarding; why did the dark matter protect the smaller galaxies and not the other larger galaxies? Of course we do not as yet know the answer to that question. But the fact it may have chose to protect one over another could easily, from the evidence, suggest intelligence.

sixtyniner69 Posted on 07/01/2011 07:33
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

perhaps 4.5BN yrs ago dark matter was called GOD and only stupid translations are wrong

it is the same as creation took 7 days but whose day ( not an earth day ) but a "GOD'S " ( dark matter ) day which might be .5BN earth years in itself

proof the bible is correct and it is just the detail that is a bit fuzzy

there was something before the big bang and it was GOD

north_east_invader Posted on 07/01/2011 07:57
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

Mornin' Raz - still going are we ? :-) ... You pick out very small parts of long debates Raz, and much as I have enjoyed the debate, we are going round in circles.

"You have opted for it having no intelligence with no evidence nor any reason"

That is not true. I have opted for it having no intelligence because there is no evidence or reason to suggest that it does. If in investigation, observation and experiment ANYTHING gives rise to this in any sensible form I will happily alter and move on, I am however CERTAIN that this will not be the case. This is from scientific principles that have been built over a long period of time.

We know for example that gravity is the affect of spacetime being warped around matter. It is not an almighty leap of faith that other detected gravitation effects are the result of another type of matter. It is an absolutely massive incomprehensible leap of faith to go on and say that it is an intelligent life form.

ALso : sixtyniner69 ... "proof the bible is correct and it is just the detail that is a bit fuzzy"

What the who and there where now ? PROOF ??? grab a dictionary son.

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 07/01/2011 08:06
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

'I have opted for it having no intelligence because there is no evidence or reason to suggest that it does.'

you pick out small parts also.

i referred to someone asking why dark matter had chose to protect one galaxy and not another.

What you are saying above has nothing to do with any of the evidence i produced earlier in this thread to do with dark matter.

You hark on about needing evidence and until we get evidence, and then when i produce some it is ignored.

To base your theory of dark matter on no evidence when their is evidence out there is certainly mystifying.

Having read up on Dark Matter over the night it would seem that many people dont believe that Dark Matter is intelligent life, but is proof of intelligent life, that this matter not only protects intelligent life forms but also hides it.

north_east_invader Posted on 07/01/2011 08:10
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

"why dark matter had chose to protect one galaxy and not another"

assumption. It chose = It has intelligence.

You are not posting evidence, you are posting observation at best, interpretation at worst.

I base my ideas on dark matter on layers of science on which it is built.

"Having read up on Dark Matter over the night it would seem that many people dont believe that Dark Matter is intelligent life, but is proof of intelligent life, that this matter not only protects intelligent life forms but also hides it."

Sorry, I am actually laughing at my desk now....

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 07/01/2011 08:15
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

'assumption. It chose = It has intelligence.'

totally agree, but it is a theory, a possibility. One which you have ruled out.

'You are not posting evidence, you are posting observation at best, interpretation at worst.'

The scientist classed it as indirect evidence. I presume you have read up on it?

'I base my ideas on dark matter on layers of science on which it is built.'

Me too and the evidence i sent a link to is the most up to date evidence of dark matter taken from the Hubble.

'Sorry, I am actually laughing at my desk now....'

you think that these theories are laughable?

miltonkeynesaverage Posted on 07/01/2011 08:25
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

Which do you find better?

Is gold foil better than silver to make foil hats with?

Kirkylane Posted on 07/01/2011 08:57
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

"we have evidence of dark matter, the hypothesising was done a decade ago we now are able to look at dark matter and what it does"

no we fcuking don't!

The hypothesising continues. There are more hypothese on top of the previous hypothese. Just change the words "dark matter" for "unicorns" and you'll have a better grasp of the state of modern cosmology.

An argument about whether unicorns govern fundamental laws of the universe is a bit ironic.

two_banks_of_four Posted on 07/01/2011 10:03
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

So are we now saying that the exisitence of Unicorns can be inferred by their gravitational effect on 'visible' matter but are not observable directly?

Following from this is the position that Unicorns are god(s)(or is there just one?), but not any denominational god we would recognise?

Kirkylane Posted on 07/01/2011 10:04
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

Maybe. Or maybe there are more rational explanations.

two_banks_of_four Posted on 07/01/2011 10:15
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

more rational?

No one has ever seen a unicorn and if there were enough of them (although as there is no observable evidence maybe they have an usually strong gravitational field meaning that one would be sufficient) they would a have a gravitational effect on visible matter. Unicorns are a 'rational' answer, get me hawking on the phone!

Razmond_HWDR Posted on 07/01/2011 11:47
Dark Matter Could Be Our God

'The hypothesising continues. There are more hypothese on top of the previous hypothese. Just change the words "dark matter" for "unicorns" and you'll have a better grasp of the state of modern cosmology.'

just change the words 'dark matter' for god, and thats what i'm on about.