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king_hellfire Posted on 16/12/2010 18:08
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...where would we be without it?

Hmmmm, i wonder. [rle]

Having last night read about the article below, another ridiculous news story has been brought to my attention whereby a woman is whipped in public after having been caught wearing trousers. The SKY News footage is on the link.

Last nights article:

'Pakistani doctor held under blasphemy law

Pakistani authorities have arrested a doctor on suspicion of violating the country's contentious blasphemy laws after he threw away the business card of a man who shared the name of the Prophet.

The blasphemy law was widely criticised after Asia Bibi, a Christian woman, was sentenced to death for insulting Islam. Critics say the law should be repealed because it is used to settle grudges, persecute minorities and promote extremism.

Naushad Valiyani, a Muslim doctor in Hyderabad, in Sindh province, was arrested after a complaint to police alleging he had insulted the Prophet.

The case began when Muhammad Faizan, a pharmaceutical representative, gave Mr Valiyani his business card. When the doctor threw it away, Mr Faizan filed a complaint, noting that his name was the same as the Prophet's.'

Link: Sky News: woman whipped for wearing trousers

HarryVegas Posted on 16/12/2010 18:12
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Most religions, unfortunately, have some of this offensive nonsense in their history. Not that long ago that catholics and protestants were killing each other in this country. Christianity itself was spread at the point of a knife. [V]

king_hellfire Posted on 16/12/2010 18:39
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True Harry.

People will always want to know the answer as to why we're here, what our purpose is, and unfortunately evolution and the 'selfish gene' were late-comers onto the scene and religions and their numerous gods 'answered' this question first.

teesman61 Posted on 16/12/2010 18:40
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Not that long ago !?!?

HarryVegas Posted on 16/12/2010 18:48
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61 - as humans have been around for millions of years and Christianity for 2,000 it's all comparative.

Interesting link below on Catholicism's proud history....

Link: Fry lecture

delu Posted on 16/12/2010 21:00
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Where would we be without religion? I assume you mean the various offshoots of Judaism (Christian/Muslim)?

While torture and violence is appalling, consider the bigger picture of what religion did to humanity. The ancient Greeks (around 500 BCE) had worked out the earth was round, that it probably went around the sun (as the sun had to be larger), that the stars were probably other suns, that big things were probably made from smaller components down to a minuscule level (atoms), that complex animals probably derived from simpler animals (evolution), that there was no gods, etc. They had no proof, but that is philosophy for you. Sadly, this was all ended by the monotheist sects and their paranoid psychoses.

I reckon that we'd be reaching out to the next galaxy if there had not been a near 2,000 year block on free-thought. Where is my warp drive? You owe me big time Papa Ratzi!

r00fie Posted on 16/12/2010 21:01
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Are they a new band from Redcar?

Roy_Batty Posted on 16/12/2010 21:04
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SmogOnTheRhine Posted on 17/12/2010 07:14
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I have to say a big thanks for that link to the Stephen Fry video... absolutely outstanding, I almost stood up and gave him a standing ovation myself. Genius.

sixtyniner69 Posted on 17/12/2010 07:30
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without religion to hide behind the warped sickos would hide behind another set of rules

the law maybe

spurticus Posted on 17/12/2010 07:41
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Anyone who thinks all the worlds problems would disappear with the sudden demise of religion is kidding themselves.....there's many non religious assholes too, and let's not forget all the good work religious charities do ffs

north_east_invader Posted on 17/12/2010 08:50
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religious charities, I love it how that is always bought up - From what I see, there is little (not saying none, I know it does exist) religious "charity" that isn't at least in part, if not wholly self serving.

You are of course right that about assholes, however it would be a better world if you have to justify being an asshole in its own right than by simply having the ready made excuse that its gods will I be an asshole - which is somehow accepted as more forgiveable/acceptable or at least understandable - especially to the mindless whooping followers of your chosen religion.

beattsmjk Posted on 17/12/2010 09:04
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I despise religion in all its forms.

MawTheMerrier Posted on 17/12/2010 09:37
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me too beatty [^]

nothing good about it. zero.

Religious people tend to mock the tribes who throw chicken bones and stones and forecast evil spirits, but this is exactly what religion does, only in a more organised and barbaric way. End it please.


king_hellfire Posted on 17/12/2010 10:24
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'and let's not forget all the good work religious charities do ffs

Surely these charities would still exist without religion or are Christians selfish people who only do good things in an attempt to impress god and therefore go to heaven?

Quality Posted on 17/12/2010 10:38
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The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly, teaches me to expect that mine is also.

...and for that reason, I am out.

Midosparmo Posted on 17/12/2010 10:41
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We take our little 2 year old daughter to church occasionally.
COE so its fairly mild stuff. A few morality tales at that age doesnt do any harm.

Midosparmo Posted on 17/12/2010 10:43
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To get upset by relgion is giving it more credit then it deserves.

Boromart Posted on 17/12/2010 10:43
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king_hellfire, not only would and do these charities exist without religion, but more money would find it's way to the people that need it. Lets not forget that people donate hundreds of billions of pounds every year to religions which somehow, perversly, manage to acquire a charitable status in themselves. Where does that money go, well the vast majority goes towards the running of hte church itself. Just in the Catholic church in the US there are approx 41,500 priests on an average of 30k. That is 1.2bill in salaries. That is before you get to health care and pension. Then there is the cost of church maintenance, new build churches, marketing, 'art investment', TV stations. Just the catholic church in the US must have an expenditure of 3bill+.

Multiply that across the world and across all religions and imagine how much money is wasted that could solve the problems in Africa and the middle-east and make a huge dent in the world banking deficits.

Organised religion is just a licence to con people out of money, always has been.

SmogOnTheRhine Posted on 17/12/2010 10:44
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Midos.... mild as in like marijuana.

No real proven long-term consequences but has been known to cause mental health issues.

Midosparmo Posted on 17/12/2010 10:46
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"No real proven long-term consequences but has been known to cause mental health issues."

XXXXXXing hell get a grip there nutters everywhere! This board for example is way above average on the nutter quota and theres not many god botherers on here.

Midosparmo Posted on 17/12/2010 10:49
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Theres some real atheist zealots on here [V]

MawTheMerrier Posted on 17/12/2010 10:50
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A few morality tales at that age doesnt do any harm.
What?, like if she doesnt pray she will spend eternity in hellfire?

Like, if she commits a sin, the devil will 'get her'.

Its your kid Mido, so good luck, I hope it turns out alright for ya.

Midosparmo Posted on 17/12/2010 10:51
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COE dont mention hell or the devil.
Its really only about helping others.
At least get your facts right, numbnuts.[V]

Boromart Posted on 17/12/2010 10:54
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Midosparmo, no offence but surely it is the job of a parent to teach morals, not a religion?

Morals pre-date religion and in fact are present in the animal kingdom.

StevieT Posted on 17/12/2010 10:56
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Battling a terrible illness but still the voice of reason.

Closing remarks (to an audience of mainly Christian youngsters) in his recent debate with William Dembski. Or should that be Dumbski? [:D]

Link: Hitchens v Dembski

Midosparmo Posted on 17/12/2010 10:56
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You are right it is Mart. But church stories are just a tool to aid that like a disney film is or any story.

north_east_invader Posted on 17/12/2010 10:57
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Its all indoctrination if you ask me, mild or not. Moral lessons are perfectly achievable and probably even better without a religious backdrop. Altruism through human kindness as opposed to through some fear of damnation in the afterlife seems much more valid to me - but thats just my view, I respect others rights to theirs.

Quality Posted on 17/12/2010 10:59
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'I do benefits for all religions - I'd hate to blow the hereafter on a technicality'

Bob Hope. Comedian.

Midosparmo Posted on 17/12/2010 11:00
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Theres no mention of damnation in COE. I cannot stand the catholic or muslim nonsense myself.
I dont even believe in COE we go at Christmas and easter. Nothing wrong in teaching kids Xmas is more then just about getting prezzys [^]

Midosparmo Posted on 17/12/2010 11:04
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The kids who have the relgion is bad mantra drummed into them are just as likely to become maniacs as those with the over relgious mantra.
A middle ground is the best way.

Boromart Posted on 17/12/2010 11:04
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I see your point Mido, for me though it is impossible to have that end result (better morals) without some 'other' messages being attached. Saying that my kids go to a CoE school (unfortunately the only decent school around here), but I put it all in context when they get home.

Midosparmo Posted on 17/12/2010 11:06
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Shes two its just fairy tales now and theres certainly zero relgion in our house!

MoggasDog Posted on 17/12/2010 11:12
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for all the murder in the name of religion god, jesus, allah, abraham can all take turns to suck me off. then i'll spin them over and bum them all. in turn. dry.

actually, now i think about it, bumming first.

Midosparmo Posted on 17/12/2010 11:14
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If relgion wasnt invented murder would still be occuring in just as large numbers with some other excuse.

Midosparmo Posted on 17/12/2010 11:19
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Hitler was very anti (jewish) relgion.

Maniacs are maniacs and moderate people, relgious or not should not be tarred with the same brush as the maniacs.

superstu Posted on 17/12/2010 11:27
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"Hitler was very anti (jewish) relgion."

-Midosparmo, on FMTTM 17/12/2010

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter..."

-Adolf Hitler, in his speech in Munich on 12 April 1922


-superstu, also on FMTTM, 17/12/2010.

king_hellfire Posted on 17/12/2010 11:28
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Good post Boromart.

There's an interview with Christopher Hitchens regarding Mother Teresa on the link below.

Here are a few snippets from the interview:

'HITCHENS: The care facilities are grotesquely simple: rudimentary, unscientific, miles behind any modern conception of what medical science is supposed to do. There have been a number of articles - I've collected some more since my book came out - about the failure and primitivism of her treatment of lepers and the dying, of her attitude towards medication and prophylaxis. Very rightly is it said that she tends to the dying, because if you were doing anything but dying she hasn't really got much to offer.

This is interesting because, first, she only proclaims to be providing people with a Catholic death, and, second, because of the enormous amounts of money mainly donated to rather than raised by her Order. We've been unable to audit this - no one has ever demanded an accounting of how much money has flowed in her direction. With that money she could have built at least one absolutely spanking new, modern teaching hospital in Calcutta without noticing the cost.

The facilities she runs are as primitive now as when she first became a celebrity. So that's obviously not where the money goes.'

FI: So the $50 million (mentioned earlier in the interview) is a very small portion of her wealth?

HITCHENS: I think it's a very small portion, and we should call for an audit of her organization. She carefully doesn't keep the money in India because the Indian government requires disclosure of foreign missionary organizations funds.

I think the answer to questions about her wealth was given by her in an interview where she said she had opened convents and nunneries in 120 countries. The money has simply been used for the greater glory of her order and the building of dogmatic, religious institutions.'

'FI: There is a Roman Catholic doctrine about the redemption of the soul through suffering. This can be seen in Mother Teresa's work: she thinks suffering is good, and she doesn't use pain relievers in her clinics and so forth. Does she take the same attitude towards her own health? Does she live in accordance with what she preaches?

HITCHENS: I hesitated to cover this in my book, but I decided I had to publish that she has said that the suffering of the poor is something very beautiful and the world is being very much helped by the nobility of this example of misery and suffering.

FI: A horrible thing to say.

HITCHENS: Yes, evil in fact. To say it was unChristian unfortunately would not be true, although many people don't realize that is what Christians believe. It is a positively immoral remark in my opinion, and it should be more widely known than it is.

She is old, she has had various episodes with her own health, and she checks into some of the costliest and finest clinics in the West herself. I hesitated to put that in the book because it seemed as though it would be ad hominem (or ad feminam) and I try never to do that. I think that the doctrine of hating the sin and loving the sinner is obviously a stupid one, because its a false antithesis, but a version of it is morally defensible. Certainly in arguments one is only supposed to attack the arguments and not the person presenting them. But the contrast seemed so huge in this case.'

Link: Christopher Hitchens

Midosparmo Posted on 17/12/2010 11:29
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So you watch a lot of the Hitler channel I take it?

SmogOnTheRhine Posted on 17/12/2010 11:37
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Midos.... I'm not going to bother arguing the "Hitler was an atheist" crap... suggest you look at this Hitches video and try to find fault in his arguments.. he does it so much more eloquently than me.

Link: Hitchens

Dibzzz Posted on 17/12/2010 11:38
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The whole thing is a load of utter shyte.

Take the Nativity scene that can be seen almost everywhere at the moment, everyone is white, didn't this happen in the middle east where everyone is dark ?

Jesus white ? he's an Arab for fcuks sake.

Complete turd, the lot of it.

Midosparmo Posted on 17/12/2010 11:42
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Cant be bothered to watch it. I dont get upset by relgion for or against it.

Hitlers main beef against the jews was that they had the money, it was not any relgious beliefs that made him a maniac.

Maniacs would still be maniacs if relgion was not invented and they would still convert overs to being maniacs some other way.

Boromart Posted on 17/12/2010 12:00
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Hitler was a catholic, devout and open catholic in his earlier years. I'm not sure why he was less open about it later in life, possibly didn't want to have vatican influence in his policies, but he was said to be catholic until the day he died.

this isn't meant to be a rant, but I will just be blunt with the facts about religion and morals.......

Regarding more murders could/would happen without religion. If you compare the first world countries (and therefore remove other influencing factors like education and poverty from the study) then the US (approx 85%) is the most religious country and Japan (approx 40%) the least. However it is Japan that has the lowest murder and rape rates, and US has the highest. How can that be explained if religion has a positive effect on moral behaviour?

It would seem that religious beliefs do not give better morals and perversely the figures seem to allude to the opposite effect.

Also it is worth noting that the US is about 15% Athiest/Agnostic, yet the prison system only has approx 0.1% Athiest/Agnostic inmates. Again the facts do not back up religions moral teachings argument and in fact seem to show that it leads to lower moral values in society.

Why? do we see those prison figures? Well Athiest/Agnostics tend to be middle class educated people.....ergo education is the answer to morals not religion.

Midosparmo Posted on 17/12/2010 12:04
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"ergo education is the answer to morals not religion."

Nowt wrong with that.

All I am saying is relgion doesnt automatically lead to problems either.

The answer more likely is the type of people that become very relgious are the problem not the relgion itself.

LeitrimBoro Posted on 17/12/2010 12:13
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I see the Hitchen zealots are out in force. The irony is probably lost on them.
Enjoy celebrating the birth of Christ on the 25th. Or is that being a hypocrite???

king_hellfire Posted on 17/12/2010 12:17
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'Nothing wrong in teaching kids Xmas is more then just about getting prezzys '

'Shes two its just fairy tales now and theres certainly zero relgion in our house!'

The thing is midosparmo, it is 'pre-programmed' into every child's brain to believe what they are told by an adult or older brother/sister. It is a basic and vital tool for survival. However the problem with this arises when children are taught stories from the bible, they are being taught to believe that the stories are the truth, and it's no secret that religions try and 'recruit? Indoctrinate?' children when they're young and impressionable and the story of Jesus' birth is an ideal way of roping children in as it seems such a charming story.

I do want to add to this post that when i was young i was sent to Sunday school for a good few years and had to read the bible (and extracts from it in front of the regular church goers) and in all that time the stories never seemed right and some of the stuff didn't make sense logically and I knew that I didn't believe in god no matter how much the Sunday school teacher tried to convince me.
So, while a child being brought up religiously and/or being made to attend church doesn't automatically mean that you are going to believe in god and devote your life to him, I saw enough at my Sunday school class (and since then) that the church plucks out significantly more devotees than it loses.

Midosparmo Posted on 17/12/2010 12:22
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So my kid can get preprogrammed, but you are much cleverer?

a) We go at xmas and easter and thats it.

b) Thats the trouble with atheists condesending tw4ts, no wonder people go relgious!

Boromart Posted on 17/12/2010 12:23
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LeitrimBoro, most of us celebrate a holiday and treating our kids to pressieswe don't care about any tenuous religious association.

Jesus wasn't even born on the 25th Dec anyway, and there is nothing in the bible indicating that you should celebrate Jesus birthday with a tree, or father christmas, turkey or pressies or anything else that is a 'traditional' British christmas.

Dibzzz Posted on 17/12/2010 12:25
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Religion, is that the one with all the wars?

SmogOnTheRhine Posted on 17/12/2010 12:38
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There is no point arguing.

To be religious is to be ignorant. It has as a pre-requisite in its followers stupidity and in its leaders fascism.

north_east_invader Posted on 17/12/2010 12:47
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See Mido, I get the condesending argument, The video in the link below is a great talk by Phil Plait about it and he makes some great points.

I think the trouble is when you are arguing from a point of reason and evidence it is very hard to not sound condesending when those are so easily discounted by the other side.

Link: Don't be a d**k

north_east_invader Posted on 17/12/2010 12:48
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And further to that, this kid puts it very well on why arguing with religious believers is simply futile.

Link: The roadrunner argument

Midosparmo Posted on 17/12/2010 12:50
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My point is.

If you can be arsed to argue against relgion you are just as much a zealot as those who argue for it.

My opinion simply is if its done moderately its no more harmful then aynthing else.

I dont see many mad COE suicide bombers etc.

king_hellfire Posted on 17/12/2010 12:55
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'I see the Hitchen zealots are out in force'

I wondered how long it would take for someone to come out with that, it's the stock response on religious threads. I actually deliberately steered clear of mentioning anything by Richard Dawkins in a vain attempt to avoid the above comment rearing it's head.

I think you'll find that the majority of Atheists don't celebrate the birth of Jesus and, as you'll probably already know, 'Christmas' was Originally a pagan festival.

Christopher Hitchens not only spoke out against Mother Teresa because of her religious views but also because she wasn't a very nice, tolerant person.

Here are a few quotes from the above interview regarding Ireland.

' that she has campaigned recently to prevent Ireland from ceasing to be the only country in Europe with a constitutional ban on divorce'

'During the Divorce Referendum the Irish Catholic church threatened to deny the sacrament to women who wanted to be remarried. There were no exceptions to be allowed: it didn't matter if you had been married to an alcoholic who beat you and sexually assaulted your children, you were not going to get a second chance in this world or the next. And that is the position that Mother Teresa intervened in Ireland to support.'

'HITCHENS: I said that I didn't ask for forgiveness and I wasn't aware that she could bestow it in any case. Of all the things in the book, that is the one that has attracted most hostile comment - even from friends and people who agree with me. They ask why I object to that, what's wrong with forgiveness? My explanation is that it would be O.K. if she was going to forgive everyone. When she went to Bhopal after the Union Carbide industrial accident killed thousands, she kept saying "Forgive, forgive, forgive." It's O.K. to forgive Union Carbide for its negligence, but for a woman married to an alcoholic child abuser in Ireland who has ten children and no one to look after her, there is no forgiveness in this life or the next one.'

north_east_invader Posted on 17/12/2010 12:57
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Suicide bombing is simply the extreme example, the thin end of a wedge. Its all (in my opinion) indoctrination. I would argue it is harmful, even more so in some ways - at least the guy with the suicide vest on is very clear on his objective and doesn't hide it.

I'll give CoE credit, its one of the more flexible and modern variations - but don't forget it only exists because a king wanted a new wife - hardly the basis of a religion.

Midosparmo Posted on 17/12/2010 12:57
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The Atheists worship at the alter of Hitchens.

Thats what makes me laugh Atheists biggots are no better then relgious biggots. They just think they are.

LeitrimBoro Posted on 17/12/2010 13:00
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FFS I know all about the pagan festivals and the moving of christian holy days.
"Jesus wasn't even born on the 25th Dec anyway, and there is nothing in the bible indicating that you should celebrate Jesus birthday with a tree, or father christmas, turkey or pressies or anything else that is a 'traditional' British christmas.
Good grief. Not born on the 25th. Well I never. No tree or Father Christmas, You've spoilt it all now. Shame on you.
I bet those pesky Victorians and Pagans had something to do with it. Turkey ? Blame the Americans it should be Goose.
As for presents for children ? Well we know the reason for that, symbolism.
It is a day to celebrate the birth of Christ. The usual anti religous zealots rant but I bet pressies will be bought and paid holidays taken. Hypocritical.

north_east_invader Posted on 17/12/2010 13:00
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Mido - Except they back their arguments with logic, reason and evidence and given new evidence they are adaptable. The same cannot be said for the majority of the religious - again, see the roadrunner argument.

Boromart Posted on 17/12/2010 13:00
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Mido, the CoE have committed plenty of crimes in the past. tens of thousands burnt alive for heresy to start with.

king_hellfire Posted on 17/12/2010 13:01
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'So my kid can get preprogrammed, but you are much cleverer?'

Not at all, I'm saying that some people get sucked in, intelligent or otherwise and that's the risk that parents face by exposing their children to religion at such an early age.
I'm referring mainly to people who send their children to church and/or Sunday school regularly.

north_east_invader Posted on 17/12/2010 13:01
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LeitrimBoro : I have no issue whatsoever in reconciling my atheism and my enjoyment of Christmas, none at all.

LeitrimBoro Posted on 17/12/2010 13:07
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"Religion, is that the one with all the wars?"
Pol pot and Stalin reigous zealots indeed ???

north_east_invader Posted on 17/12/2010 13:08
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"Pol pot and Stalin reigous zealots indeed ???"

Right, saying that religion has been responsible for a lot of wars is not the same as saying ALL wars have been the result of religion. A vast majority of them have though.

squarewheelbike Posted on 17/12/2010 13:09
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Is there actually any proof that;

A. Jesus existed.
B. He was born of a virgin.
C. He was the son of someone, no-one has ever seen.

No, thought not, happy midwinter festival everyone.

north_east_invader Posted on 17/12/2010 13:11
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squarewheelbike - yeah some people wrote some stuff down about it some considerable time after it was supposed to have happened. Thats evidence yeah ?

LeitrimBoro Posted on 17/12/2010 13:11
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I bet you sent Christmas cards. Didn't ya. Tell me. You did. I bet you did.

north_east_invader Posted on 17/12/2010 13:13
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Personally no, the other half wrote them [smi].

By not believing in Jesus am I therefore excluded in being able to send my best wishes to my nearest and dearest at a time when families come together ?

MawTheMerrier Posted on 17/12/2010 13:13
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"theres certainly zero relgion in our house"

- nah but youre sticking plenty of it on here.

"At least get your facts right, numbnuts" Typical response from a religious loon - get all angry and fire off insults. Do you want to stone me? [:D]

LeitrimBoro Posted on 17/12/2010 13:16
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So she put your name on them ???
Cop out, dear, dear me.
Yes familys come together because of the birth of Christ.

Midosparmo Posted on 17/12/2010 13:16
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Read my posts again numbnuts.

Im having a go at biggots and simply saying moderate relgion is harmless. Im not preaching, its mainly the atheists preaching on here.

north_east_invader Posted on 17/12/2010 13:17
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No, they come together because everyone is off work enjoying themselves. Not a cop out at all, there is no religious message in the cards we send and families come together because they have the time and the opportunity, simple as.

Boromart Posted on 17/12/2010 13:18
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I'll buy into A, but not B and C. I suspect he was more like an early radical political figure than anything supernatural. The muslims would agree with me on that one.

squarewheelbike Posted on 17/12/2010 13:18
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"Some people wrote some stuff down".

So does that make Harry Potter real?

Midosparmo Posted on 17/12/2010 13:20
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Id say A as well. But I couldnt care less if others said all three if they are reasonable about it.

north_east_invader Posted on 17/12/2010 13:20
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Where as Mido, from my perspective, "moderate" religion is as bad, if not worse as its somehow accepted indoctrination.

For what its worth, I am happy for people to believe what they wish, as long as they don't want to force it on others - the difference is my definition of forcing it on others extends to children who know no better and should (again in my opinion) be given the chance to make their own mind up in time given all the info from unbiased sources.

LeitrimBoro Posted on 17/12/2010 13:21
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Of course NE invader. Of course.

north_east_invader Posted on 17/12/2010 13:22
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I think I may start to like you LeitrimBoro, come give me a hug [;)]

Midosparmo Posted on 17/12/2010 13:22
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Unless kids are locked away and only come out to go to church they get the info from all sources.

north_east_invader Posted on 17/12/2010 13:24
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Thats not entirely true mido, depends on what school they go to, what they are told in church.

I went round a couple of the religious schools when looking for a school for my daughter and was shocked and thats even before we get onto Mr Vardy and his schools of serious indoctrination.

LeitrimBoro Posted on 17/12/2010 13:24
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Non of that malarkey here. Move on.

Midosparmo Posted on 17/12/2010 13:26
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My kid wont be going to any relgious school. We go to church about twice a year but to some im brainwashing her.

The problem I have is relgious nuts and atheist nuts.

Boromart Posted on 17/12/2010 13:27
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Leitrim you're starting to sound a bit of a loon, try debating without getting all hot under the collar.

"The Atheists worship at the alter of Hitchens." - never read anything by him.

"It is a day to celebrate the birth of Christ." -- for you and some other people maybe, I would guess that millions of people will enjoy the day and the build up without a thought for religion, I know I will. You cannot instruct that I cannot have a fun day and have a tree without it being a nod to some 'man upstair'. It means to me what I say it means and that is an excuse to have a drink and spoil my kids. Absolutely nothing hypocritical about it at all and by dictating to me that I am subversively being christian by enjoying christmas day and having a tree then you are indeed being a zealot.

JonMc Posted on 17/12/2010 13:32
Hooray for Religion


Amongst classical historians it's accepted now that a political pain in the backside who we call Jesus today (wasn't his given name) was wandering around Galilee two thousand years ago. Only a few stragglers don't accept this. We know very little about him though.

LeitrimBoro Posted on 17/12/2010 13:32
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In all honesty. Live your life the way you want. With religon or without. But do not push either pro or anti views down peoples throats.
The zealots seem this day and age yo be in the anti camp. Feck em.
I have my religon. It's helped me in my life. I brought two lads up and they both run their lives well. At times!! Both go to Mass of their own accord.
Each to their own.
God Bless.

north_east_invader Posted on 17/12/2010 13:39
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I would never force my views on anyone, everyone is free to believe what they wish and argue with me if they disagree. I will however argue points I believe are false or indeed harming to others rights to do a believe what they wish - which is paramount.

LeitrimBoro Posted on 17/12/2010 13:40
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I was dipping out of this but Boromart /???
"The Atheists worship at the alter of Hitchens." - never read anything by him."
Never wrote that. Please show me where.

My tongue is in my cheek BoroMart. Read post above. You seem to be the zealot.
I would never instruct anyone how to run their life. Neither should you. Hypocrite.

Boromart Posted on 17/12/2010 13:40
Hooray for Religion

I don't see any atheists pushing anything on here. I do see someone telling me that I am a hypocrit for having fun on a public holiday though [;)] It's like I'm not a true athiest unless I sit miserable on christmas day, or just to spite religion I break the doors down and go to work. It's just a couple of paid leave, and that is something to celebrate in itself.

May science bless you and keep your molecules bound, failing that the Flying Spaghetti monster will save your soul.

squarewheelbike Posted on 17/12/2010 13:42
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"We know very little about him though"


LeitrimBoro Posted on 17/12/2010 13:44
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Perhaps instead of breaking the doors down. give your money to charity if the day we celebrate the birth of Christ upsets you so.

Boromart Posted on 17/12/2010 13:47
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it doesn't upset me though, that is just the point Leitrim.

You can say I'm a hypocrite and tell me it upsets me but it doesn't. Black Magic and mumbo-jumbo gets me a couple of free paid work days and because everyone is off work/school it's an ideal opportunity to socialise and have fun. I don't give the voodoo side of it a second thought so cannot be upset about it.

MawTheMerrier Posted on 17/12/2010 13:50
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Mido, its numbnuts again, I wont tell you how to bring yer kid up, but dont deny that the lass is getting brainwashed, if your taking her to religious class at the age of two!

Its astoshishing for your to think otherwise.

I know, I went through the brainwashing techniques myself at the hands of the experts - the Catholics!

Lietrim, you appear to believe that Christmas is about Christ. As you are well aware the deep winter festival of the solstice - the shortest day - was always a joyous time to be celerated. The Organised religions simply latched on to it. Being Catholic you will know that Christ is thought to have been born in March. [:D]

LeitrimBoro Posted on 17/12/2010 13:51
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Well some of us don't get paid leave (me) and believe in the birth of Christ. No fecking justice I tell ya. None.

Midosparmo Posted on 17/12/2010 13:53
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The issue I have is people preaching at you that relgion is wrong because it preaches at you and stops you making your own mind up.

But at least its funny that the daft coonts cant see that they are doing exactly what they moan about relgion doing.[^]

Midosparmo Posted on 17/12/2010 13:54
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Its twice a year for the tenth time numbnuts!

Your brain might be washed with that amount of times but give her a bit of credit.

LeitrimBoro Posted on 17/12/2010 13:57
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Indeed Maw. I know all about the pagan rituals. 25th isnt the shortest though but near enough.
BTW talking about Pagan ritual.I live about 4 miles of a seventh son of a seventh son. The man makes a fortune laying hands on.
There is also great belief in bone setters.
The christians didn't stop all our pagan beliefs.

JonMc Posted on 17/12/2010 13:57
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"We know very little about him though"


Indeed indeed. [:D]

Only answering the question. But there seems to be atheists/humanitarians determined to debunk even that. Never let it be said that bias is the sole preserve of the religious amongst us.

north_east_invader Posted on 17/12/2010 13:57
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And Mido, the fact you can't see the potential for harm is what I find shocking. But each to their own.

Midosparmo Posted on 17/12/2010 13:59
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I find it shocking that someone can think going to church twice a year will harm anyone. Thats 1 and a half hours a year.
Have you seriously considered psychiatric help?

SmogOnTheRhine Posted on 17/12/2010 14:02
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I find it odd that anyone can go to church just twice a year and consider that normal.

What you doing, hedging your bets ?

You're either religious or not, it's a simple choice, you have faith or you don't... it's binary.

north_east_invader Posted on 17/12/2010 14:03
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Oh dear, okay ... we're at this stage are we. I would happy submit myself for psychiatric assessment thanks, in the knowledge I would be fine.

You have to remember I am not in any way specifically getting at YOUR choices, I am getting at this on a global scale and its all (whether its twice a year, or every day) part of the same problem, just to varying degrees.

We can agree to differ, but I don't resort to name calling, don't be so defensive.

MawTheMerrier Posted on 17/12/2010 14:03
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mido, run that past me one more time will ya, I'm struggling.... [8D]

Lietrim, My dad (being catholic) was one of ten kids and the seventh born fancied herself as a medium. She has a good rep I'll tell ya. Some uncanny stories about white feathers going around our family [:O]

Midosparmo Posted on 17/12/2010 14:04
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Its about getting the kid out of the house and seeing different things and giving her credit to think her own things.[^]

Much better then brainwashing her into believing in god or not believing in god.

Midosparmo Posted on 17/12/2010 14:06
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Seriously though do you think anyone can be brainwashed with 1 and half hours a year. If you do you have a problem.

north_east_invader Posted on 17/12/2010 14:09
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I dont tell my children what to think. I tell them my views and what others think about the same thing and provide info I can when asked. They will be free to make their choices, my only hope is that they will be based upon evidence and reason.

Midosparmo Posted on 17/12/2010 14:11
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"And Mido, the fact you can't see the potential for harm is what I find shocking. But each to their own."

Explain that statement based on one and half hours church a year.

north_east_invader Posted on 17/12/2010 14:12
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I believe done right you can probably do it in less to begin with. Tell me, if its so important, why not every Sunday, why not every month ?

Midosparmo Posted on 17/12/2010 14:14
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Read what I said ffs!

I dont think its important, its all part of the world.

I bet you sang hymns at school every week are you relgiously brainwashed? If not, why will my daughter be, when you are not?

Boromart Posted on 17/12/2010 14:17
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"The issue I have is people preaching at you that relgion is wrong because it preaches at you and stops you making your own mind up."

Most of the athiests on here are not preaching though. They are putting the FACTS in front of you (like me putting the figures about prison population of US being almost exclusively religious). Preaching is telling someone to believe something by faith not fact. It is a key difference.

north_east_invader Posted on 17/12/2010 14:17
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"Explain that statement based on one and half hours church a year."

Because I believe that indoctrination of children who are too young to make up their own minds is wrong. That is my belief, you are free to disagree.

To me this belief is true whether it is daily, weekly, monthly or annually. It makes no difference to me whether it is a lot of indoctrination or a little, thats my opinion.

I believe a lot is considerably worse than a little, but I also feel its all part of the same thing.

As I say, don't take it personally, I don't argue with your right to hold a different belief to mine, I also don't argue with your right to argue against my points.

king_hellfire Posted on 17/12/2010 14:18
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'Im having a go at biggots and simply saying moderate relgion is harmless.'

I think you'll probably find that in Muslim countries the moderates are the people whipping women for wearing trousers (as seen in the link in the opening post).

north_east_invader Posted on 17/12/2010 14:20
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"I dont think its important, its all part of the world."

Its part of the world that religions WANT to exist, that doesn't mean we have to accept it, but if you chose to do so that is your choice.

"I bet you sang hymns at school every week are you relgiously brainwashed? If not, why will my daughter be, when you are not?"

Yes, when I didn't know any better. I am not saying your daughter will be, I hope she grows up a decent critical thinker and makes her own rational choices. The same is not true for everyone though.

Midosparmo Posted on 17/12/2010 14:22
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Our local church has a woman vicar so thats not an issue [^]

Boromart Posted on 17/12/2010 14:36
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the majority of people are moderates, whichever side of the debate they sit. But that doesn't explain how (more atheist) Japan has lower crime than (more religious) US? How come the US prison system is skewed such that it is almost atheist free? Moderation isn't necessarily the answer.

As I said earlier, education is the key.

Education isn't reading a text book and memorising, it is understanding and thinking for oneself. Organised religion does the opposite, it publishes it's own book and dictates how it should be interpreted.

It expects followers to be a subservient, don't think, don't question! It has survived through this very attitude. In fact until very recently questioning its teachings was a taboo subject in the media, and before that you could have been burnt at the stake for questioning. It is anti-education.

Soylent_Green Posted on 17/12/2010 15:58
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I think measuring prison populations to show how religion is crime inducing is a bit skewiff. Look at Pakistan, it has a lower incarceration rate than Japan but its hardly a bastion of secularism. Not saying that Japan isnt safer than America, or that Pakistan is safe either. Correlation does not imply causation.

Boromart Posted on 17/12/2010 16:39
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Why is it 'skewiff'? That is a bit of a cop out, turning a blind eye to the facts without any alternate facts or conclusion from the evidence. Soylent_Green, lets put it another way, there is plenty of data out there, does ANY of it back up the theory that religion provides positive moral guidance? I would say no.

It isn't religion directly that I see as causing these figures, as I have already stated it is poor education.

Alongside other studies, it is clear that religion is far more prevalent in the poorly educated (for they are the most vulnerable in society and easiest to indoctrinate).

There should be 150 times as many Atheists in US prisons. What the facts clearly show is that education is far, far more effective than religion (which appears at best negligible and at worst negative in it's moral effects) in creating a moral framework.

Governments would be wise to remove charitable status from religions and reinvest any money into education.

The thing with comparing Pakistan is that it is a 3rd world country. It is through a rod of iron and fear that they keep a moral compass, far more than religion per se. Although as you rightly point out it is non-secular so the lines between religion and law blur significantly. I would also state that due to the third world infrastructure there are many more violent crimes but these are not reported. That is why I compared 2 countries with similar human rights, education and economic factors to try and isolate religion.

Also I was talking two most specific crimes rape and murder, due to the extreme nature of those two, not all incarceration.

Midosparmo Posted on 17/12/2010 16:44
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I still say its not the relgion that cause the problem its the people that are drawn to them.
If there was no relegion they would still be causing bother and brainwashing the simple mninded another way.

99% of relgious people are fine,but it can attract the nutters.

HarryVegas Posted on 17/12/2010 16:48
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Some heated debate going on here! [xx(] And you know who I blame? The People's Front Of Judea! [:D]

The_same_as_before Posted on 17/12/2010 18:02
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Hitler was a fundamentalist athiest. On the logic of some if the above, that makes all none believers believe that gas chambers are an acceptable way of life.

Me I am a Catholic, I believe in one God, I do not expect you to, but Allow me to, without demonising me.

Boromart Posted on 17/12/2010 18:17
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Hitler was not athiest he was brought up a catholic, and according to those close to him died a catholic. But he had awareness and understanding of other religions, he entirely believed in a God, a divine creator. He did have an uneasy relationshp with the Catholic Church and it's interpretations. I guess he could see the power and influence and perceived it as a threat.

But at the smae time he made agreements for German schools to all to be faith schools, and they would all be catholic....hardly the action of an atheist.

The Catholic church has often tried to muddy the water on these historical facts, much like it tries to muddy the water regarding the earths age and anything else it perceives as a threat to it's teaching.

He is difficult to pigeonhole as he was a complex man, but he was religious and 'generally' catholic in thinking. Certainly not an atheist.

Oh and the phrase 'fundamental atheist' is non-sensical. What exactly is a non-fundamental atheist? This is one of those silly derogatory terms banded about by religious folk who are now becoming alarmed that questioning religious beliefs is no longer taboo.

The_same_as_before Posted on 17/12/2010 18:48
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I am sure that you are right, and he was not a vegetarian either I suppose. But if he was, which I am not saying he was, just in case he wasn't. Again by the logic above all vegetarians are evil.

Most murders wear undies, does that mean all blokes who wear undies are murders?

As I said I am a Catholic, you seem to think that makes me a devil incarnate

north_east_invader Posted on 17/12/2010 19:05
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Much like Stephen Fry, I have no issue with people who find salvation, comfort or answers in in their faith, catholic, protestant, muslim, jew, or anything else it is their choice. I have no issue with Catholics as a generalisation whatsoever. I do have a great deal of issues with the Catholic church though, but please note this is not the same as me having issue with you and your personal faith.

I do not think you are the devil incarnate and would never suggest such a thing, I don't know you for starters, I wouldn't go so far to extend the same to the organisational body of the catholic church however.

The_same_as_before Posted on 17/12/2010 19:16
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The catholic church has its evil bstrds, there is no need the for the funds it holds. I have no doubt that some of the beliefs are nonsense, why a priest cannot Marry is beyond me. I do think abortion is wrong, that does not mean I have the right to decide what a woman decides to do with her body.

I am pragmatic, but to think that the catholic church is different to any other belief, within or out with religion is not logical.

Mao, or the leads of the killing fields were evil, that does nit nake Communists evil.

Boromart Posted on 17/12/2010 19:20
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The_same_as_before, I don't think you have read my previous posts (don't blame you too many of them) or maybe misunderstood them.

I do not believe that being religious makes you evil. There are many good people and bad people on both sides of the fence. It's wrong to apply these discussions at an individual level, it's aimed at the wider issue as a whole and trends that occur.

An atheist would never claim that someone is the 'devil incarnate' [:P]

north_east_invader Posted on 17/12/2010 19:34
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"I am pragmatic, but to think that the catholic church is different to any other belief, within or out with religion is not logical."

It is different, it has its own set of rules and beliefs on which I am free to judge it much like any other religion. I don't just have issues with the Catholic church, that was just the one in question at the time. I have more issue with the Catholic church than CoE, I have more issue with CoE than for example the Quakers.

I personally take issue with anything that isn't based on evidence and reason, but that is my choice and how I choose to assess things - I wouldn't try to force that on anyone - I may try to argue its better however, but that doesn't mean anyone has to agree with me, hey I like debate, its healthy.

The_same_as_before Posted on 17/12/2010 19:39
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I love my wife. How do I give you evidence of that?

north_east_invader Posted on 17/12/2010 19:43
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Through your actions and how you conduct yourself. I have no reason to doubt you love your wife if you say so, but whether you love your wife or not doesn't affect many outside of your family and friends. I am pleased for you if its true but if it isn't true then your lie is only hurting you and your family, not me and certainly not millions around the world.

JonMc Posted on 17/12/2010 20:02
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It might be easier if we can distinguish 'the Catholic Church' from 'The Vatican'. The Catholic Church lies in the congregation, those who are good and not so good, like the rest of us.
I have issues with the Vatican but increasingly so do the rank and file and this can only be a good thing.

If The Vatican is to change then that change must come from the body of the church itself and I believe that it will - mebbys just not quick enough for some.

As my sister (very much Catholic) once said - 'My faith does not begin and end with edicts given from old men in funny hats.'

The_same_as_before Posted on 17/12/2010 20:02
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I wrote the longest justification I could think of, and the sodding system lost it.

By your response you accept that all evidence does not have to be physical, or before Capernicus you would not have believed that the earth goes around the sun

north_east_invader Posted on 17/12/2010 20:12
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Its fine to have a theory that the earth goes round the sun and to see and judge the evidence that supports it. I, and my "belief" is that this is the difference, I am willing to change my perspective based on the evidence I don't think the same is true of many religious people - whether that is true of you or not I don't know, but that's my general observation.

I can appreciate a theory and be happy when the evidence either proves or disproves it. I think a lot of people wouldn't have believed the earth goes round the sun until it was physically proven, but I would have welcomed that change as progress with open arms.

"wow, the earth really does go round the sun, how about that" etc.

Using your example, there is only really one authority on whether you love your wife or not and that is you. Others close to you (including your wife) may have an opinion about it, but still the ultimate authority is with you and I have nobody else to question and only your word to take. This is not true of whether there is a god or not.

jimmy_boobface Posted on 17/12/2010 20:12
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All religion has its faults, although out of them all, Islam seems to have the most outlandish, ridiculous rulings and punishments - which is a shame, because the actual religious beliefs of Islam are quite good.

The_same_as_before Posted on 17/12/2010 20:15
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The most intelligent reasonable debate on religion for a long time, and they have just chuff in scored

JonMc Posted on 17/12/2010 20:23
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Its fine to have a theory that the earth goes round the sun and to see and judge the evidence that supports it. I, and my "belief" is that this is the difference, I am willing to change my perspective based on the evidence I don't think the same is true of many religious people - whether that is true of you or not I don't know, but that's my general observation.

That's pretty much the problem. Good religious leaders, from priests to imams, will always encourage people to reflect upon their faith from time to time. You can do this and still believe in a God. Unfortunately too many don't and become far too entrenched in their wiews.

north_east_invader Posted on 17/12/2010 20:27
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"As my sister (very much Catholic) once said - 'My faith does not begin and end with edicts given from old men in funny hats.'"

But those old men in funny hats would disagree. It wouldn't be the first time Christianity has forked as different people have their own interpretations.

spurticus Posted on 17/12/2010 20:30
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Merry fuuqin Christmas ya pack of miserable bwastards [LOVE]

king_hellfire Posted on 17/12/2010 20:37
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'By your response you accept that all evidence does not have to be physical'

There needs to be an element of logic behind it.
You say you love your wife and north_east_invader suggested that you can prove that you love her through your actions and how you conduct yourself. There is a logic to that way of looking at things even though there is no way that it can be physically proved, however, had you said that you were in love with a woman who you had never met and had only ever heard stories about, and on top of that she'd been dead for 100 years then in that instance there would still be no physical evidence but there would be no logic behind your reasoning and nobody would believe you, quite rightly too.
I used the comparison of the hypothetical woman who had been dead for 100 years because it mirrors the fact that the Bible was written 100 years after the events it depicts took place (by people who had never met Jesus and had only heard of him through stories passed on by word of mouth) so you can't reasonably use the excuse that there is no physical evidence as a way of counter-acting someone's belief that the Bible is false.

JonMc Posted on 17/12/2010 20:38
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They can disaggree all they want. The catholic church is a broad church including folk who fundamentally disagree that their action are in fact sins for which they will burn. Many don't even agree with the whole burning bit.
They are determined to fight from within and what's more, more and more catholic priests are sympathetic. After all it's their congregation at gound level.

I would love to see that The Vatican (as a political structure) be given a good spring clean. The Church would survive.

north_east_invader Posted on 17/12/2010 20:44
Hooray for Religion

"and north_east_invader suggested that you can prove that you love her through your actions and how you conduct yourself"

Kind of, I wouldn't call it physical evidence, I would call it a chance of building a sound theory through observation - which is not conclusive but could be convincing based upon many observations over time.

My main point though is this is a case where there is one sole authority - categorically. Religion, although it may claim the same one true authority is entirely different.

standards Posted on 17/12/2010 20:44
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Jesus walks on water, Up the Roundheads [:o)].

The_same_as_before Posted on 17/12/2010 20:48
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I went to the Vatican for the first hind this year, to be honest the national gallery has better art, and disney has better marketing. What the Vatican has to do with my beliefs Is zero. I am not a theologian.

I do believe in one god, whether he is Christian Jewish or any otter religion I have no idea, but it jakes me feel better.

My lads believe what they want, never went to a Catholic school even though evidence is that they are better than average.

I just do not get the stick people like me get.

The_same_as_before Posted on 17/12/2010 20:53
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And for the record, I have not read the bible from cover to cover. It reminds me of Shakespeare plays, does any truly believe that he expected every one of his words to be broken down for meaning as it has.

The bible was stories, nothing more nothing less, why get wound up over it

king_hellfire Posted on 17/12/2010 20:55
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'Kind of, I wouldn't call it physical evidence'

I was trying to say that it isn't physical evidence. TSAB seemed to be implying that evidence doesn't always have to be physical, therefore even though there's no physical evidence that proves the bible is correct it doesn't necessarily mean that the bible is incorrect.
I believe though that even if there is no physical evidence there still has to be logic to the reasoning of people who believe that the bible is true.

Hopefully I'm getting my point across clearly cos it's a pain in the Órse following and responding on a thread using a phone.

north_east_invader Posted on 17/12/2010 21:03
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"The bible was stories, nothing more nothing less, why get wound up over it"

and my personal belief is that is a respectable attitude, and as a story I think it has something to say, even if that is just more about humanity than any divinity. The trouble is a lot of people don't agree with that and use it as justification for all sorts of things.

That said I know that peoples actions also don't make religion bad in itself, my issue is when it is, for some inexplicable reason exempt from so many other things (be it tax, or in law, or setting up schools etc).

Completely discounting religion for a moment, I think its disgraceful that someone with enough cash can set up a school using public money and set a curriculum to their own agenda as one example, religious or otherwise.

The_same_as_before Posted on 17/12/2010 21:27
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I am findementaly against Fundementalism of any type.

As for religious schools I treat them with contempt, I spent my childhood in them.

We try to hard with the detail, why get upset over books.

north_east_invader Posted on 17/12/2010 21:43
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I think what pretty much sums it up, and why I think that atheists are starting to be labelled as "fundamentalists" for being more vocal/arguing these days is that its not that most (at least anyone I know or have listened to) really feel that religion should be wiped out as such ... most seem to hold individual beliefs and choices very highly...

... its just to see it being granted special privilege in any way is concerning, at least I find it so ... its not a problem with existence but it should be subject to the same rules as everything else.

I feel the same about alternative medicines that don't have to follow the same tests and scrutiny as regular drugs.