permalink for this thread : http://search.catflaporama.com/post/browse/2259921
Pogatetz_Ate_My_Hamster Posted on 11/11/2010 22:20
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

Anyone watching it on C4?

Basically saying a smaller state and lower taxes are the answer

[^]

swordtrombonefish Posted on 11/11/2010 22:21
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

...and a lower population...a quarter or that presently in place would be about right.

WillMunny Posted on 11/11/2010 22:23
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

I'm watching Pog [^]

Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 11/11/2010 22:24
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

How are they proposing to support the millions that don't work? The millions that the private sector aren't able to employ?

WillMunny Posted on 11/11/2010 22:27
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

The private sector could employ more if taxes were lower.

Pogatetz_Ate_My_Hamster Posted on 11/11/2010 22:30
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

In Britain the government controls 48% of the economy

What theyre saying is if you tax less people spend much more and it therefore creates more jobs.

Get rid of VAT and dont tax the poor.

If you tax more, people have less money and therefore spend less, businesses go bust and no private sector jobs.

Big Government doesn't work.

Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 11/11/2010 22:32
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

What a load of rubbish. The private sector increase profit on a yearly basis, yt the number they employ drop. Nothing to do with tax, all to do with making maximum profit.

Cut the staff, increase the dividends.

6876 Posted on 11/11/2010 22:36
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

Posted this on another thread. Very interesting...

The goverment of China controls 22% of it's economy. The uk controls over 50%. Bigger than the private sector.

Wealth comes from the private sector. And it's smaller than the public one it feeds.

Frightening

Pogatetz_Ate_My_Hamster Posted on 11/11/2010 22:36
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

Socialism does not create wealth or jobs

Any country who keeps the big government approach will drown in it's own debt and unemployment

WillMunny Posted on 11/11/2010 22:36
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

I have my own business and would love to recruit at the moment, but I cannot afford to do so because I pay so much tax. When including VAT and employers NI, I pay about 2/3rds of my profits out in tax.

Scrap employers NI and reduce VAT to 10% and I can create a £25,000 a year job. That would lead to an increase in profits and within a year I'd be recruiting again. The income tax, NI and VAT from those 2 jobs would be about the same as the tax being cut, whilst I would have potentially taken 2 people off benefits.

Simples.

Oh and yes my profits would go up, which means I would pay more tax, so the tax take overall has gone up. And I'd have more money to spend, as would my new employees, which would further benefit the economy.

Julios_Hairband Posted on 11/11/2010 22:37
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

"The private sector could employ more if taxes were lower."

The private sector (well, the larger scale end of it) does a very good job of not paying the taxes it should anyway.

moxxey Posted on 11/11/2010 22:37
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

"Get rid of VAT and dont tax the poor."

That makes NO sense :)

You're saying the Govt shouldn't tax people, so they'll spend more? But you're saying they should cut out VAT, too.

So, if they spend more, how does the Govt make up for the personal tax shortfall, without VAT?

"Don't tax the poor". Is this the same "poor" who have 46" LCD TVs? It's hardly the same as being poor in the Victorian era!

RABD Posted on 11/11/2010 22:38
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

one of the best argumentative documentaries i have ever seen.

watching the union boss try to joust with the documentary maker was embarassing

RABD Posted on 11/11/2010 22:40
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

its simple, you have faith in individuals to create wealth rather than rely on someone in govt spending your money.

The section on the north east was spot on, all of the regions main achievements were when the private sector not the public sector dominated.

Also the line that people in HK would consider living in Sunderland to be akin to a prison sentence!

WillMunny Posted on 11/11/2010 22:42
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

"The private sector (well, the larger scale end of it) does a very good job of not paying the taxes it should anyway."

You are talking about isolated cases with a few big businesses. I am private sector and effectively pay tax at 67% on profits. Don't you think that stifles my ability to expand my business.

Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 11/11/2010 22:43
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

These sound exactly the same as the arguments of the late 70's.

A regurgitation of the discredited ideas of neo-liberalism. We've already tried it, it failed.

The, 'I'd love to employ more people but' arguments always find a new excuse.

trugggg Posted on 11/11/2010 22:43
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

"I have my own business and would love to recruit at the moment, but I cannot afford to do so because I pay so much tax. When including VAT and employers NI, I pay about 2/3rds of my profits out in tax.

Scrap employers NI and reduce VAT to 10% and I can create a £25,000 a year job. That would lead to an increase in profits and within a year I'd be recruiting again. The income tax, NI and VAT from those 2 jobs would be about the same as the tax being cut, whilst I would have potentially taken 2 people off benefits.

Simples."

I agree with all you have said Will. Would you take on someone who has not worked for a number of years? Or someone who has suddenly been declared fit for work but not been able to work since childhood because od illness/disability? Or someone who has been sent to you by the dole people because they have been out of work for a year?

6876 Posted on 11/11/2010 22:44
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

Not taxing the lower paid and only 15% for all the other earners is the model that Asia has built it's growth over that last 30years. It's created wealth and massive growth and now adopted by eastern Europe and china.

Won't go down well here as you must slash the public sector.

A British mans idea.

WillMunny Posted on 11/11/2010 22:45
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

Sorry CTC, but we've never tried it here. They adopted this philosophy in Hong Kong in 1961, when GDP per capita was a 33% of the UK. Its now 133%!

Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 11/11/2010 22:46
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

'You are talking about isolated cases with a few big businesses.'

Are you aware of the global economy? These few big businesses are where the real world decisions are made. They're not made by governments.

There are fewer and fewer businesses, but the few have soaked up the smaller companies. If your business is succesful it will be bought, make no mistake about that. If it isn't then it isnt significant enough to make a difference.

Pogatetz_Ate_My_Hamster Posted on 11/11/2010 22:47
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

Will what your saying makes perfect sense

But people like C_C wont listen, they just see people like you who are generating wealth and not taking handouts as nasty capitalists

WillMunny Posted on 11/11/2010 22:49
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

I wouldn't discriminate against any of those trugggg, but in my line of business i have to carry out stringent fit and proper tests so as long as someone passed the test, I would give them fair consideration.

Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 11/11/2010 22:50
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

Where did I say that, if you can't tell the truth, don't bother.

Have a look at how many global companies there are, and how much of the world economy they control.


WillMunny Posted on 11/11/2010 22:51
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

CTC - my long term aim is to build the business to a level where it will be acquired [;)]

There are still 3m SMEs in the UK by the way.

Julios_Hairband Posted on 11/11/2010 22:52
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

No, that's what I'm mainly getting at, big business avoiding tax costs the economy billions. The problem is, in most cases they're capable of avoiding it entirely legally, if not perhaps what the average person would consider legitimately, and there's really not a lot can actually be done about it without becoming very draconian about it.

Small to mid business by comparison therefore is more heavily burdened.

However, I do take issue with one thing:

"I am private sector and effectively pay tax at 67% on profits. Don't you think that stifles my ability to expand my business."

That's admirable mate, and I'm not questioning you here, but how many businesses would necessarily see it that way, or how many just see it as lost profit that they'd rather have lining their, or their shareholder's pockets?

Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 11/11/2010 22:57
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

'Sorry CTC, but we've never tried it here.'

We've been down this road before, Will. It's not that long ago either. We had a goverment of the right that made the moves to take us there, they couldn't do it, and they had a massive majority and three government terms to try.





Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 11/11/2010 22:59
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

'There are still 3m SMEs in the UK by the way.'

Yes, I'm aware of that, I worked in a drawing office with 30 of them not long ago. [;)]

WillMunny Posted on 11/11/2010 23:00
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

"That's admirable mate, and I'm not questioning you here, but how many businesses would necessarily see it that way, or how many just see it as lost profit that they'd rather have lining their, or their shareholder's pockets?"

Large listed companies with demanding shareholders may well take that view, but at the micro level I am sure it would be different. Anyone with their own business would surely like to recruit, even a one man band with a trade. For example, by employing an apprentice, he/she would have someone else to work when they are not available due to holiday/sickness. They could take on more work, employ more people, etc. With punative tax rates, unless you're prepared to live on a pittance, or go into debt, it is very difficult to expand.

HolgateCorner Posted on 11/11/2010 23:02
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

I'm sick of all this talk about debt.

What is debt anyway in our strange economic system?

When is a debt not a debt?

I'll tell you - it's when it amounts to tens of billions of pounds and it's been run up by bankers across the world.

They don't pay, we do.

They make me sick.

Pogatetz_Ate_My_Hamster Posted on 11/11/2010 23:02
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

It was a really good documentary

It's something we should definatley try, but no doubt it will never happen.

Would need a government with the balls to slash our bloated public sector to manageable levels.

6876 Posted on 11/11/2010 23:03
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

But if it went to the shareholders, what would they do with it?

Employ builders to build a house or home improvements?
Buy a new car?
Spend localy buying meals and nights out?

Putting more cash in the economy thus creating jobs for the people who they currently have to support by paying welfare? They all have large cost involved in giving it to those living off the state.

It's just spreading the cash around better and more efficiently than the government.

And it's got a proven track record, unlike our current method


The g

WillMunny Posted on 11/11/2010 23:03
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

Oh I must have missed it when we scrapped VAT, reduced the top rate of income tax to 20% and abolished CGT and Inheritance Tax. [rle]

Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 11/11/2010 23:05
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

'Large listed companies with demanding shareholders may well take that view'

Exactly, and together with the banks they've made a complete balls of it. Hence the number of unemployed in what were properous countries. The economies are growing, unfortunately so too are the unemployment queues. Even those in low tax countries.

trugggg Posted on 11/11/2010 23:08
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

Will, that is really good to hear. What line of business are you in?

Pogatetz_Ate_My_Hamster Posted on 11/11/2010 23:12
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

"Exactly, and together with the banks they've made a complete balls of it. Hence the number of unemployed in what were properous countries. The economies are growing, unfortunately so too are the unemployment queues. Even those in low tax countries."

Rubbish.

If buisness wern't taxed to death in this country* then alot would employ more people or not outsource work and if people wern't hammered for tax there would be more money in their pocket and they would spend alot more on good and services creating job and wealth for businesses.

A economy run by the government creates minimal wealth, it just keeps the dole queues down.

Lefty Posted on 11/11/2010 23:14
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

'The goverment of China controls 22% of it's economy. The uk controls over 50%. Bigger than the private sector.'

And how is life for the majority of the population in China?

Yes, off you pop over to live in a chinese village with its water shortages, poor roads, no education and reliance on woo woo medicine.

Fact is the public sector grows all over the world as countries get wealthy and it is of a similar level in all western countries.

I notice it didn't mention that in the US medicare is cheaper than the private sector by far and that the NHS actually is rated the best in the world by far in many independent surveys. How does our privatised rail network compare to state run continental rail networks?

Some things work best in the private sector, some work best by the state.

An appalling documentary with a clear agenda by those on the right, no doubt a few in the pocket of private healthcare companies.

WillMunny Posted on 11/11/2010 23:15
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

I'd rather not be too specific on here trugggg. Let's just say I am in the service sector.

Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 11/11/2010 23:16
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

Will, we didn't go that far. We still have a majority of people that want to keep the NHS, a public education system, public roads etc.

If that's what you're suggesting we lose then fair play to you. Fortunately we've failed to follow the wishes of society's most selfish since WW2.

I'm in a low tax country now and can see first hand the social problems associated with it. I'm on a good wage, I'm doing comparatively well, but there's vast areas of this wealthy city that are out of bounds thanks to those policies.

State schools with 5,000 pupils, basketball halls visited by doctors from Britain and elsewhere because the local populace can't afford the medical facilities.

Pogatetz_Ate_My_Hamster Posted on 11/11/2010 23:16
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

"An appalling documentary with a clear agenda by those on the right, no doubt a few in the pocket of private healthcare companies."

Your username tells us your agenda

mickymacc Posted on 11/11/2010 23:19
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

The small bit I have seen,he seemed to be distorting the facts,he said the state monopolises school and health,what about the public school system and blue cross and bupa in private health.Also he poured water in a tube up to the 2 million mark and said there were 5.5 million public sector workers.
He seems to be making very simplistic points.[?]

Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 11/11/2010 23:20
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

Can I ask you chaps supporting the tax cut views a question?

If tomorrow, the nation did as you're suggesting. What do you think the immediate effect would be?


6876 Posted on 11/11/2010 23:20
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

And how is life for the majority of the population in China?


Improving under the new economic model? But it will take time after the last 100 years

Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 11/11/2010 23:21
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

6876, I think you'll find it's unchanged for the majority.

WillMunny Posted on 11/11/2010 23:22
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

Lefty, your own agenda is clearly on show there. I don't think the programme was advocating no state, just a smaller one. The point made about front line services being about 25% of the state was telling.

I know people in the public sector who openly admit that they get paid a good wage for doing little of any consequence. If we didn't employ these people in the public sector, taxes could be lower and I could employ more people in the private sector.

teesman61 Posted on 11/11/2010 23:23
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

Pog? Are you Stuart Bell?

Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 11/11/2010 23:23
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

'I know people in the public sector who openly admit that they get paid a good wage for doing little of any consequence.'

Also true for the private sector. I've worked in both, it was harder and more rigorously monitored in the public sector.

WillMunny Posted on 11/11/2010 23:26
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

Yes but CTC, I am not going to employ someone to sit around on their arse pretending to be important, whilst paying their salary out of borrowed funds. My business will soon go to the wall if I do that.

So why is it okay for the public sector to function like that?

6876 Posted on 11/11/2010 23:27
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

Of course you can't change it tomorrow, but I think all wod agree that it hasn't been working for a while and the growing markets are doing things differently to us.

It is clear we need to at least change it.

Lefty Posted on 11/11/2010 23:28
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

'Improving under the new economic model?'

For a very small number in the cities. China has major problems in the majority of the country.

Don't be fooled, a lid is kept on it and there aren't too many reports in the western press of the real situation, but I've heard podcasts from westerners who have spent a lot of time and the censorship, corruption and economic unrest in most of the country is serious. The picture is not as rosy as you think.


Kirkylane Posted on 11/11/2010 23:29
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

"Fact is the public sector grows all over the world as countries get wealthy and it is of a similar level in all western countries."

Bureaucrats expand to fill the space available. So do other parasites, such as defence contractors - a big drain on the US taxpayer.

The state in Scandinavia is minimal, it is what you'd call a "right wing" economy, income tax is 3% in Denmark, with a top rate of 15%. People vote locally to spend on health and education.

That's a choice you don't want people to have

Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 11/11/2010 23:31
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

'So why is it okay for the public sector to function like that?'

I worked harder in the pubic sector than I do in the private sector. You can't tar everyone with the same brush.

From 1979 until 1997 Britain had a government that wanted to move in the direction suggested by the programme you watched tonight.

That's 4 consecutive governments, in which, if this board is to believed, the economy was kept in order.

Why did they fail to go so far? They had the majority, they had the personnel. What stopped them?

WillMunny Posted on 11/11/2010 23:36
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

"Can I ask you chaps supporting the tax cut views a question?

If tomorrow, the nation did as you're suggesting. What do you think the immediate effect would be?"

If it happened overnight, a lot of people would suffer of course. But you've got to make a start down the right path.

People bemoan the loss of the manufacturing sector in this country, but our tax rates give us no chance of competing with cheap imports. If employers NI was scrapped, british goods would be around 12% cheaper to produce on reduced Labour costs. I can't quantify the effect, but that must have a positive impact on our exports as well as domestic consumption of British goods. An increase in demand for our goods must also lead to the creation of jobs. More people paying tax and less people on benefits then reduces the deficit.

There's a start.


Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 11/11/2010 23:36
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

'income tax is 3% in Denmark'

Really! When did that drop?

WillMunny Posted on 11/11/2010 23:38
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

"What stopped them?"

They didn't try! Did you watch this programme?

Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 11/11/2010 23:41
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

Why didn't they try? They had the personnel in government to do the job. It was what their think tanks were espousing at the time. So why not?

I know they didn't, I was involved quite heavily in things back then. Why didn't they do it?

What would be the effect on Britain if these cuts were made at the next budget? Was that mentioned?


Lefty Posted on 11/11/2010 23:41
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

'income tax is 3% in Denmark, with a top rate of 15%. People vote locally to spend on health and education.'

Is that right?

No, it seems not.

From Wickipedia

'The large public sector (30% of the entire workforce on a full-time basis[13]) is financed by the world's highest taxes[14]. A value added tax of 25% is levied on the sale of most goods and services (including groceries). The income tax in Denmark ranges from 42.9%[14] to 63% progressively, levied on 4 out of 10 full-time employees'

So the question is, why did you peddle that earlier nonsense? Are you extremely thick or just happy to make up outrageous lies to promote your agenda?


Link: Taxation in Denmark

Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 11/11/2010 23:44
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

This is from the Danish press last year. I was working over there three years ago, it was high back then but they seemed to be enjoying a very nice lifestyle.





Link: We are the champions!

jam69 Posted on 11/11/2010 23:44
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

one of the most bias programmes i have seen for a long time.i think the makers were in favour of a return to the victorian sweat shops when there was jobs for all,but at what cost?

Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 11/11/2010 23:46
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

jam69...now there's a different view [:D]

You must have actually watched it while they were on here getting excited.

[;)]

WillMunny Posted on 11/11/2010 23:49
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

Well I can't dispute or confirm what think tanks were thinking in the 80's. But what tonights programme was advocating was far more radical than anything that has ever been attempted in the UK.

We probably can't afford the gamble with the deficit so high, but I'd love to test the theory of what would be the impact of scrapping employers NI. It MUST lead to job creation, growth and higher tax revenues from IT, employees NI and VAT, together with a lower welfare bill.

Surely?

WillMunny Posted on 11/11/2010 23:55
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

"one of the most bias programmes i have seen for a long time"

Biased? In favour of what? The presenters theory? What did you expect him to do;

a) put forward his theory then try to lend weight to it with carefully selected 'evidence'

b) put forward his theory and then proceed to discredit it

Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 11/11/2010 23:55
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

Will, of course we had it before. We had it throughout the industrial revolution up to the end of the 19th century.

It was extremely succesful. For a few. The growth of trade unionism put a stop to it, and it's why the likes of you and myself can type on here. Education became a right. With that education came the realisation that more could be achieved and along came the NHS.

Public spending is way above what it needs to be, to release the state burden the private sector has to play its part. It can't keep offloading labour and expecting the state to maintain order, which is what it needs to flourish.

Or is there something more sinister at play? Are the corporations looking for a battle and a new world order?

WillMunny Posted on 12/11/2010 00:00
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

You're absolutely right and the programme made those points about the industrial revolution. What I am saying is we've never tried to reverse the process to the extent that this programme was advocating.

jam69 Posted on 12/11/2010 00:01
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

bias as in presenting people to back his theory whilst producing opinion as fact,
having children saying what hes asked to,oh and as for us leaving them with our debt he failed to mention that we have just finished paying for the napoleonic wars not to mention the 2nd world war.
the private sector made more money 100 years ago,of course it did it paid about 2p an hour,many died at the workplace and those who didnt died a young death.
yes lets return to those days.
theres more to life than money and profit

WillMunny Posted on 12/11/2010 00:07
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

Jam, I hear what you are saying. But surely scrapping VAT, which he advocated, would be a progressive move and benefit the poor. No income tax for the low paid, say up to £12,000, would also be progressive.

I don't know whether it would work, but don't pretend what was suggested was all for the benefit of the rich.

ThePokerTutor Posted on 12/11/2010 00:24
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

I don't think China is a model any civilized society should consider following. Unfortunately some posters on here don't deserve to live in a civilized society. [:o)]

RABD Posted on 12/11/2010 00:35
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

so lefty is criticising China, a communist country... pot, kettle, black...

whistler Posted on 12/11/2010 00:58
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

I haven't seen this yet (working) but it's recorded.
As an employer I've said for years that taxation should be reduced on business and I include local taxation in that too. Businesses employ people who then spend/invest their money. Give business and staff more money to invest in our economy!
When we bailed the banks out we should have given the money to businesses that would then invest it to improve their operations and employ more people making the banks have to fight for trade like the rest of us. Money does make the world go round !!!

__eccy_ Posted on 12/11/2010 02:04
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

This is the guy who made a documentary which stated that global warming was a con....
....enough said I think.

I can't sum it up any better than the comment left on the Channel 4 site
" 15 minutes into Durkin's latest idiocy and I am already shouting at the TV as each of his procession of goons appears on the programme to voice their uninformed views. The man performs a very useful public service by showing that the borderline lunies from the IEA and Adam Smith Institute and has-been politicians like Howe and Lamont should be shunted off to the funny farm to lecture each other endlessly about the evils of the rest of us."

This is just uninformed right-wing polemic, don't fall for it.

tonymcandrewshattrick Posted on 12/11/2010 07:39
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

one of the worst documentaries i've ever seen on the subject. tried to balance kidstv with investigation journalism.

Some of the points were very valid, but didn't offer a balanced perspective.

Could have been really good if the BBC had produced it?

rivals_oldschool Posted on 12/11/2010 08:05
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

Money in any form you have it is just like water. It will inevitably find it's way to the path of least resistance. The more tax you put in place the more money you drive away.

What once made the west great was low tax, small government and innovation.

We seem to have forgotten that.

Instead we expect big government to take the pain away but ultimately it just makes things worse.

RABD Posted on 12/11/2010 09:19
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

uninformed views.... yeah, professors, academics, head of finance banks, head of the financial services authority...

sure our politicians know more, did you see the part when none of them quantify the nation's debt?

Kirkylane Posted on 12/11/2010 09:22
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

CTC - You don't get it. The tax is high because communities choose it to be so. It's raised and spent locally.

The all-powerful central state that you love so really much doesn't do much taxing.


Kirkylane Posted on 12/11/2010 09:25
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

Quoting Wikipedia... [:o)]

HelmutSchmutz Posted on 12/11/2010 09:35
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

"Yes, off you pop over to live in a chinese village with its water shortages, poor roads, no education and reliance on woo woo medicine."

The same woo woo medcine that works just as well if not better than our medcine?

footyteam Posted on 12/11/2010 09:45
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

I love the amount of economists on message boards. particularly a guy up top

"if tax went down i could hire more bla bla bla"

stop going on a message board you doyle and do some work for your business

The_same_as_before Posted on 12/11/2010 09:47
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

I thought it was a spoof.

From the 1800's to 1930's there was no poverty, no one was ill, everyone was educated, full employment.

Dickens and Orwell wust have been referring to another country.

FartingGnome Posted on 12/11/2010 10:02
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

I was speechless with the chutzpah.

All this fulminating about the decline of manufacturing industry without a single reference to who deliberately, DELIBERATELY, set about systematically destroying it after 1979, telling us that our future was in the service sector.

I have never ever seen such a piece of selective journalism ever, and that includes the Daily Mail and the Morning Star.

Perhaps the right wing on here might care to address this question.

What happened to ICI?

Until 1979 they were a world leading chemical company employing tens of thousands in Teesside alone. Now they don't exist. After decades of having directors who were scientists they got City spivs with their snouts in the trough and they deliberately set about destroying it to feather their nests.

Nice to see the ultimate capitalist institutions (the banks) doing so well that thay don't need state help.

Oh, hang on.

UAUA Posted on 12/11/2010 10:25
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

Even when debating this problem, the elephant in the room is ignored in favour of point scoring.

For 40 years this countrys "leaders" have served to delay the onset of a slide into a lower standard of living by frankly criminal means. The issue baggars belief.

Kirkylane Posted on 12/11/2010 10:28
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

FG - ICI was a great company that succumbed to asset strippers and financial engineering. Spivs, as you say.

There was a global trend to "unlock value" from individual parts of the company, at the expense of the value of the whole. The integrated works I grew up next on Teesside were difficult or impossible after that.

Now what has that got to do with your arguments? Are you saying that because private companies sometimes bugger up their businesses, the state is needed to run them?

The_same_as_before Posted on 12/11/2010 10:34
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

The elephant in the room as you say is that we opened the capital markets completely. Every profit making monopoly has been transferred to foriegn owners, the profits going back to Bonn, Paris....

ICI was British owned, and then to a smiling American family who asset stripped and then to Saudi.

Maggie sent this countries manufacturing base to anywhere but here.

When we had regional aid, we were opening factories for fun, now..

bolifer Posted on 12/11/2010 10:40
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

Wasn't this programme really about how Blair had decimated private industry,included the great majority on the public purse,put the UK Trillions in debt and now the country was up XXXXXX creek?

Lefty Posted on 12/11/2010 10:41
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

'The same woo woo medcine that works just as well if not better than our medcine?'

Oh my god!

No it doesn't, you utter dickhead. Don't you realise that Mao and the more important Party members used western medicine? They encouraged the idea that the woo woo stuff was effective because they cannot afford to put on a competent health service. That would involve creating a health service and educating the population, two things which need taxes to go up, thus increasing the share of the economy the government controls.

Homeopathy, accupunture, so called alternative medicines do not work beyond the placebo effect. They have been tested in blind and double blind experiments many times and they just don't work.

You have spent too much time watching Oprah and (not a doctor) Gillian McKeith.

Try reading 'Bad Science' by Ben Goldacre.

Lefty Posted on 12/11/2010 10:44
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

'Quoting Wikipedia... [:o)]'

You are aware that in independent academic studies Wickipedia has been found to be more accurate than Encyclopedia Brittanica, aren't you?


'This is the guy who made a documentary which stated that global warming was a con....'

Was it indeed? I thought it had that feel to it at the time.

FartingGnome Posted on 12/11/2010 10:48
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

"Now what has that got to do with your arguments? Are you saying that because private companies sometimes bugger up their businesses, the state is needed to run them?"

No

I was making the point that the arguments the programme was putting across were presumably wilfully onesided and that the financial wideboys have been screwing ordinary people over for the City spivs' enrichment and that the programme ignored that fact completely.

As I think someone else said up there ^^^^, it's all about greed, and greed in the hands of very very powerful people.

The state didn't flog ICI off, the spivs did. To blame everything on the State, as this idiotic programme did, is either totally dishonest in furtherance of an agenda so far to the right it's off the page or perhaps just a XXXXXX take.

If it was a XXXXXX take then sorry, I didn't get the joke.

rivals_oldschool Posted on 12/11/2010 10:51
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

As mentioned in the programme, the two world wars is where the decline started. We increased the state burden and poltiicians lacked the gonads to reduce it once the war was finished.

Our manufacturing base was floundering long before Maggie T turned up. The state helped monopolise it and it turned to sh*t.

I've said this before but when my grandad was working down the steel yards, his daily 6-2 shift consisted of him being home by 11 and in the pub by 12.

When you monpolise entire sectors they inevitably become inefficiant because it's not they're money they are throwing away, it's someone elses.

Same deal with the banks. A healthly economy would be one that would have let them go.

Keeping in mind though that they became bad banks in the first place due to past governments continually debasing the currency.

ccole Posted on 12/11/2010 10:52
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

"stop going on a message board you doyle and do some work for your business"


Didnt he post that message last night, out of hours?

RABD Posted on 12/11/2010 10:53
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

the documentary provided an alternative vision, it gave evidence of this visions success in HK, your argument is to keep doing the same thing we're been doing for years

its not very attractive.

What about the point of 73% of employees being involved in the public sector in the north east? Is this what you aspire to continue?

Lefty Posted on 12/11/2010 10:57
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

'Same deal with the banks. A healthly economy would be one that would have let them go. '

Too big to fail. You agree that the global capitalist system we have needs a radical overhaul then?

'Keeping in mind though that they became bad banks in the first place due to past governments continually debasing the currency. '

Nothing to do with shareholder pressure in the form of increased returns and inadequate regulation filtering down to greater risk taking?

bear66 Posted on 12/11/2010 11:09
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

Isn't our national debt in terms of GDP smaller now than at any time since the war and probably a century beore that? Don't we have one of the lowest levels of debt in the western economies?

These cuts are all political . . . . . if the economy picks up, the deficit quickly disappears and we will still be in the lower tier of accumulated debt. If the econony doesn't pick up . . . I wouldn't be surprised as the cuts seem to be designed to stifle it

rivals_oldschool Posted on 12/11/2010 11:09
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

It was central govt who provided the platform for greater risk taking, most especially the last Labour one who created the environment.

Bottom line is artificial inflation , i.e. printing money is theft. It steals peoples money hence why when they debase the currency it encourages greater risks to be taken.

You keep wanting to label it as a capitalist problem when it isn't. Government interference is the problem.

UAUA Posted on 12/11/2010 11:11
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

" if the economy picks up, the deficit quickly disappears "

You are missing the magnitude of the problem.

How does over a trillion pounds of debt "quickly disappear"?

RABD Posted on 12/11/2010 11:13
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

bear 66 - the answer is 'no' to all of the questions in your first paragraph

rivals_oldschool Posted on 12/11/2010 11:16
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

'if the economy picks up' apparantly.

The key word being IF.

It's bad times when we have people squealing about cuts just so we can handle the defecit, without even touching the overall debt.

zaphod Posted on 12/11/2010 11:57
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

This is just Reaganism, which effectively bankrupted the US economy.

If you think the average Hong Kong Chinese has a good life, you haven't looked very closely. Most of them live in incredibly small flats & usually eat out in cheap cafes because there's no room to cook. Children can't afford to move out (the future for us, maybe). At the same time, there are many millionaires & other people living in flash houses. It's better than China, but not a model for us.

I know a balanced view doesn't make for good TV, but I despair of the exteme positions taken in British politics. Labour over-spent & we've got to tackle that, but the answer isn't to go to the other extreme.

The_same_as_before Posted on 12/11/2010 12:12
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

The trillion is one side of the UK plc balance sheet, what is the other?

I have a mortgage that represents roughly 50% of the asset value of my house, does that make me profligate, or is it OK as I can afford to pay it back.

And 90% of the trillion is owed within the UK. I.e. the interest goes to British people and pension funds


UAUA Posted on 12/11/2010 12:26
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

"And 90% of the trillion is owed within the UK. I.e. the interest goes to British people and pension funds"......which has to be paid.

Also, its not just £1T, on the basis you mention, its about £4T.

It cannot be paid back without a drastic reduction in standard of living. Its simply an inescapable fact.

mattrich Posted on 12/11/2010 12:28
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

A programme to show nothing more than a pipe dream that will never happen in this country, Labour have reduced this country to a nation dependant on state handouts tax credits, family tax credits, disability allowance etc, so they can increase the state and introduce cheap overseas labour for the jobs that we now consider below us in a possible attempt to stop the tories ever getting back into power, we will keep falling down the wealth tables and the health tables because what they implemented can never be reversed, the brain drain will continue as will the rich taking there money overseas.

Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 12/11/2010 12:28
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

Don't be throwing the reality of the situation at us!


UAUA Posted on 12/11/2010 12:32
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

All this "Labour have done this" and "The Tories have done that" is just bullXXXXXX. Its all of them that have conspired to let down the country and its future generations.

The whole business is the most monumental burying of heads in sand this country has ever seen (with the possible exception of "peace in our time").

Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 12/11/2010 12:42
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

Kirky!

Apologies. You're wanting to actually increase democracy and reduce centralisation!

Fair play, and you're right, I wasn't with you.

Couldn't agree more, by the way. I'm all for increased democracy, and to all spheres, industrial in particular. Management's ignorance of its own industries has cost the nation dearly over the last half century.

The power to raise taxes locally has been eroded from the early 80's onwards. Rates were capped and business rates, once collected locally, were taken into a central fund for redistribution nationally.
During this time, local power within the Labour Party was eroded, the Tories have never had local power.


WillMunny Posted on 12/11/2010 16:07
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

""stop going on a message board you doyle and do some work for your business"


Didnt he post that message last night, out of hours? "

Thanks ccole. I didn't get in from work until 9pm last night, but apparently I should've stayed here all night according to the cretin known as footyteam!

For the record footyteam, I studied economics at A level and degree level and it is a large part of what I do for a living, so I think I am entitled to an opinion. You are too but it seems you don't have one.

As for my assertion that scrap employers NI and I would recruit, well that is a statement of fact. I cannot afford to take someone on in the current climate, but save me £15k per annum in Eer NI and I could.


Zelig Posted on 12/11/2010 16:11
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

Willmunny are you claiming to single handedly balance the nation's books?

Kirkylane Posted on 12/11/2010 16:20
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

"You are aware that in independent academic studies Wickipedia has been found to be more accurate than Encyclopedia Brittanica, aren't you?"

No it hasn't [:o)]

And Norman Wisdom really did write the White Cliffs of Dover. Is that the best you can do?

Kirkylane Posted on 12/11/2010 16:21
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

CTC, agreed.

southgatesotherelbow Posted on 12/11/2010 16:25
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

Will very much enjoyed reading your posts very informed/ considered. [^][^]

Nice to see a few more sensible people on here as opposed to Pinnochio (Corcaigh) and the Brothers

Kirkylane Posted on 12/11/2010 16:28
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

Whether there are spivs or not it's a fact that the state is a drain on the economy, distorts the market and is really, really crap at investing in industry.

We can make an exception to subsidise things we know are going to be unprofitable, like the Germans subsidise coal. (A good idea IMHO, as we'll see when the lights start going out). Or Concorde. But you think ICI example invalidates the reality, it doesn't.

Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 12/11/2010 16:38
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

The cage has been left open!

Thread over.

southgatesotherelbow Posted on 12/11/2010 16:44
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

Nurse, Pinnochios out of bed again![:D]

Lefty Posted on 12/11/2010 17:00
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

'"You are aware that in independent academic studies Wickipedia has been found to be more accurate than Encyclopedia Brittanica, aren't you?"

No it hasn't [:o)]'

Per the BBC

'In order to test its reliability, Nature conducted a peer review of scientific entries on Wikipedia and the well-established Encyclopedia Britannica.

The reviewers were asked to check for errors, but were not told about the source of the information.

"Only eight serious errors, such as misinterpretations of important concepts, were detected in the pairs of articles reviewed, four from each encyclopedia," reported Nature.

"But reviewers also found many factual errors, omissions or misleading statements: 162 and 123 in Wikipedia and Britannica, respectively."'

Nature magazine is about as respected a scientific journal as there is.

Now, although the Encyclopedia Britannica comes out slightly ahead in terms of minor errors, and is certainly better written, the point made by academics is that Wickipedia has an advantage in that it is often updated quickly for new research/results, but Brittanica must wait for it's next publication update for corrections. Hence Wickipedia being rated higher by some academics.

Either way, there isn't much in it and Wickipedia is certainly not deserving of the derision you attach to it in this case, wouldn't you say?

Kind of makes you the [:o)]




Link: Nottingham University Business school also

mattrich Posted on 12/11/2010 17:07
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

The last time I used wiki I was informed that Paul Ince was the new Boro manager and that Rolf Harris was dead, no doubt influenced/adjusted by memebrs of this messageboard. Thats how accurate it is at times[;)]

Lefty Posted on 12/11/2010 17:19
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

'it's a fact that the state is a drain on the economy, distorts the market and is really, really crap at investing in industry.'

No, it isn't a fact at all.

When the state invests in education, it benefits the economy. When the state invests in healthcare, it benefits the economy. When the state invests in a good transport infrastructure, it benefits the economy. When the state invests in scientific research, it benefits the economy. The returns unfortunately are long term, not the short term results that our current capitalist economy demands.

Far too simplistic to say the state is a drain on the economy. It is a big player, certainly, but that can be for good or ill, depending on how it interferes. But interfere it must as otherwise we have a world left to market forces alone and that most certainly does NOT work.



RABD Posted on 12/11/2010 18:12
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

the state doesnt invest anything by itself, it uses our money to do so.

pierrequiroule Posted on 12/11/2010 20:59
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

" 'This is the guy who made a documentary which stated that global warming was a con....'

Was it indeed? I thought it had that feel to it at the time. "

Manipulative journalism.


Link: Greens bite back

br14 Posted on 13/11/2010 04:27
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

It's really all about politics, and government economic policy is all about the acquisition and retention of power. Subject always to global factors.

If I tax you then I control you and care for you and own most of the wealth.

If you keep your money, you're free to do what you want and are responsible for yourself and get to generate and retain wealth.

Labours focus since 1997 was to grow government and tax (stealthily) and reduce your ability to generate and retain wealth.

The Tories will be to reduce government and tax and create a property owning democracy.

In truth the Tories never quite succeed as well as do Labour (even Thatcher increased spending on the NHS for example).

Oddly enough the Liberal bit of the Lib-Dems is the lowest taxing of the lot. Not that they have much of that left.

Kirkylane Posted on 13/11/2010 13:39
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

Lefty, you were talking about the state trying to do business, which it is crap at. The return is between 30p and 70p on every pound spent. Look it up.

As for your list, you can remove "the state" from every item, if there is investment in X then the country benefits.

So: "When we have investment in healthcare, it benefits the economy. When we have investment in a good transport infrastructure, it benefits the economy."etc.

You're avoiding the argument!









Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 13/11/2010 14:16
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

'As for your list, you can remove "the state" from every item, if there is investment in X then the country benefits.'

That's true, but it wouldn't happen.

MoggasDog Posted on 13/11/2010 14:35
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

after reading this post, me and our lass watched the program on 4od.

very, very clever. all propaganda. nice touch was to interview all of thatchers chancellors. they're never going to be for a laissez faire capitalist system, are they? [;)] they're the silly coonts who sold the country from under us. he also used the word socialism when describing the old communist countries in east europe - a little pet hate of mine but said to me, straight away, that this fella was a little, right wing tory.
the NHS was another bad example - look at the US - the wealthiest country on earth that cant treat its own citizens. Health insurance companies in the US control so many politicians that its scary.

a well put together documentary for the agenda that it was intended for. it was completely one-sided and im sure impressed a lot of people.

we have just witnessed what can happen when businesses and financial systems are left to regulate themselves. we're left with the sh1t bucket and any profits left with the shareholders.

Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 13/11/2010 14:38
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

'the NHS was another bad example - look at the US'

Costs 4 times as much per head of population in USA, yet they don't have universal coverage.

istinitboro Posted on 13/11/2010 21:09
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

I agree wholeheartedly with you Moggas Dog.A very clever attempt in these troubled times to maintain the status quo.Mercifully,there are those among us who can see through the ruling class subterfuge,unlike the capitalist lackeys on this board who have not even grasped,that if you need to sell your labour,you are working class.Whether you are a solicitor teacher or a binman you are equal as you have to sell your labour to survive.This petty bourgeois mentality is sickening.

boro74 Posted on 13/11/2010 22:42
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

I try to keep an open mind. There are a lot of differing opinions on this thread. But I can't agree with the following statement...

"what would be the impact of scrapping employers NI. It MUST lead to job creation, growth and higher tax revenues from IT, employees NI and VAT, together with a lower welfare bill."

Why MUST it? It must not nesecerally lead to job creation. It will definitely lead to increased profits.

You make it sound like an employers only aim is to create more jobs. That's not true. If employing less people leads to more profit then he will cut jobs.

For example an employer could take his extra profit to buy machines requiring less labour and thus reducing the work force and increasing the profit.

Business men run businesses and not charities. If there was no control they would just hire and fire as they did over a hundred years ago. The workforce would have virtually no rights.

Less tax sounds good. Who would be against paying less tax? But certain things have to be financed. Health, Education, Infrastucture etc. It's about finding the right balance and spreading the load in a fair and just fashion.

rivals_oldschool Posted on 14/11/2010 00:10
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

It's not just about giving money back to business though, it's giving it back to the ordinary man in the street. It gives him increased freedom to not be so reliant on the state nor one business.

It was never state money that Middlesbrough boomed under, never. Middlesbrough has only been successful under private money from entrepreneurship .

Right now Middlesbrough is one of the most reliant areas in the country on state money. Yet the place isn't booming, it's done nothing to reverse the decline. The state cannot step in as a replacement, it's incapable of it.

Industry is not incapable of investing. Middlesbrough's past proves this. Industry back then did build infrastructure, it did provide housing for the workers.

Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 14/11/2010 00:15
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

Middlesbrough boomed on a low wage immigrant workforce.

TeessideCleveland Posted on 14/11/2010 01:31
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

Zero benefits and total privatisation is the ultimate answer
Short term mending the Labour-wrecked UK economy is the key
Very fair proposals to pay the unemployed to help their community rather than punish them by letting them sit on their backsides becoming more and more unemployable is the helping hand needed

Only_Me Posted on 14/11/2010 05:21
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

Just a few general points as I haven't seen the programme as yet...


" This is the guy who made a documentary which stated that global warming was a con....
....enough said I think. "

Global warming was a con, which is why the name was changed to 'climate change' when they were found out. ( You forgot the rule of thumb in these cases - follow the money - and millions of it ended up in Al Gores pocket ( and others of the same ilk, of course ) - coinkydink? I think not! )
It's now being repackaged btw, to brainwash the sheep under the name of One Planet. Beware...




" Even when debating this problem, the elephant in the room is ignored in favour of point scoring."

The biggest elephant in the room is the ever present EU, which forced us to move away from manufacturing to finance in the first place.
The EU states that we must not have any nationalised companies, hence the sale of the Royal Mail of late and other businesses in the past.
The NHS will also go at some point as it has been decreed, Cameron didn't dare do it this time round in the same way as he couldn't stop paying the foreign aid bill, as much as he would have liked to cancel it completely and rightly so really, as far too much money is going into the hands of the wrong people. It needs to be looked at seriously and money only given to those truly in need.
Anyroadup, now we have the EU wanting to tax us directly. It's not enough that they already get more than £45 million per day off us, they still want more.
It binds companies in so much red tape that strangulation occurs and incentives to start new businesses are far outweighed by the negatives, add in the fact that european workers can come here and take work at a lower wage than the minimum wage demanded by British workers and you have a recipe for disaster just in that one fact alone and more often than not, the money earned here by foreign workers goes back to the country of their origin and isn't being spent here, so we lose all round.
Get out of the EU and things would be a lot better more quickly and the money we pay in to that festering, pus filled boil of fraud, deceit and corruption could be better spent here and we could make our own rules again.



"When the state invests in education, it benefits the economy."

I would agree, education should be seen as being an investment - todays school children are tomorrows tax payers, however, education has been dumbed down to such a level that school leavers now are not properly prepared for the outside world and have no more than a very basic understanding of their subjects.
The brightest kids have been betrayed by the 'lefts' pure hatred of grammar schools - the very thing that helped many of the working class to raise themselves out of poverty. Instead choosing to hold them back academically and keeping them down with those of average ability or less. That is the biggest betrayal of the working classes and is monumental in it's effects. The same applies to the technical schools and don't even think of trying to go to night school to try and improve your qualifications, unless you want to study nail technology or basic maths and English. ( No A levels in Eng Lit, History, Physics, Chemistry and Biology, Geo etc., any more - all gone thanks to the last government. )



"the state doesnt invest anything by itself, it uses our money to do so. "


Indeed it does, only it seems to have forgotten that, or to be more honest, they couldn't care less. In the same way that they thought fit to make extortionate expense claims. That people have had to work damned hard to make that money is of no concern to them, as evidenced by the profligacy of past governments and most notably under the watch of Gordon Brown both in his time as chancellor ( theif in chief ) and when he forced himself on us as P.M.
This is why they need to be reminded ( often ) that they are public servants, not the other way round.

There have been several mentions of democracy on this thread but we do not live in a democracy, whatever control we still have over our own affairs is purely cosmetic and of no intrinsic value.

CanuckBoro Posted on 14/11/2010 05:31
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story


Global warming was a con, which is why the name was changed to 'climate change' when they were found out. ( You forgot the rule of thumb in these cases - follow the money - and millions of it ended up in Al Gores pocket ( and others of the same ilk, of course ) - coinkydink? I think not! )
It's now being repackaged btw, to brainwash the sheep under the name of One Planet. Beware.

Finaly a man of reason...........

great post

Kirkylane Posted on 14/11/2010 09:17
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

The Victorians built quite a decent transport infrastructure and created Middlesbrough - all without any state spending.


Kirkylane Posted on 14/11/2010 09:29
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

Boro74 - businesses are not charities. But the state has no money, it's all other people's money. So almost everything comes from sucking money out of the economy, and there is a massive opportunity cost for doing so.

It's wealth creation that pays for the state at all, and this gets clobbered. There is probably a lot people can agree on what the state should do, but it's just commonsense that it gets out if the way.


tonymcandrewshattrick Posted on 14/11/2010 11:17
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

"The brightest kids have been betrayed by the 'lefts' pure hatred of grammar schools - the very thing that helped many of the working class to raise themselves out of poverty. Instead choosing to hold them back academically and keeping them down with those of average ability or less. That is the biggest betrayal of the working classes and is monumental in it's effects. "

what a load of nonsense


MoggasDog Posted on 14/11/2010 12:34
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

its difficult because a lot of industrial towns were created by so-called benevolent industrialists who built homes, schools and hospitals for their workforce. the fact was that they had no choice - either they built it or they would have no workforce. there was no welfare system but then this is counter balanced by shockingly poor working conditions and slavery of the workers.
now we have a welfare system that, rightly, looks after people without work but then, at the same time, rewards laziness and apathy with some people. unions should have found a balance between the two but then militants spoiled it for the majority and paved the way for thatcherism to gang rape the country and have previously unseen levels of unemployment. those kids of thatcher have now had their own kids that have even less ambition and have grown up on a welfare system that has become the norm for them.
forcing people stuck on welfare to work is very easy to say but, in practice, do you think all of these people will just accept it?

Lefty Posted on 15/11/2010 13:45
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

'Global warming was a con, which is why the name was changed to 'climate change' when they were found out. ( You forgot the rule of thumb in these cases - follow the money - and millions of it ended up in Al Gores pocket ( and others of the same ilk, of course ) - coinkydink? I think not! )
It's now being repackaged btw, to brainwash the sheep under the name of One Planet. Beware...'

Good grief. It is not a con, there is a general scientific concensus on this. They may disagree on the solutions and no-one is saying it is categorically down to mankind, due to the complexity of the global weather systems, but that mankind is making a difference is by far the best explanation.

As for them being 'found out', when did that happen? It must have passed me by.

As for the great Victorian Philanthropy, its largely a myth I'm afraid. There was some philanthropy, but you'll find it was mainly a Quaker thing. Check the recent interesting episode of Melvyn Braggs IN Our Time on the R4 website for illumination on that.

Mind you, it seems quite obvious to me anyway. If philanthropy was that successful there would have been no need for a whole raft of legislation for societies protection that were brought in due to social and political movements and of course Trade Unions would never have been born.


Lefty Posted on 15/11/2010 14:08
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

'Lefty, you were talking about the state trying to do business, which it is crap at. The return is between 30p and 70p on every pound spent. Look it up.

As for your list, you can remove "the state" from every item, if there is investment in X then the country benefits.

So: "When we have investment in healthcare, it benefits the economy. When we have investment in a good transport infrastructure, it benefits the economy."etc.

You're avoiding the argument!'


Kirkylane,

I'm not avoiding the argument at all. Some things only the state can take on and I thought I’d mentioned them. Perhaps I just thought it so obvious the point didn’t need emphasising.

Tell me the country with a road infrastructure that is all down to private investment and whether it is better than all the others that realised this is something that, because it benefits everyone, is best tackled by the state?

Can you tackle the education system on the same basis?

Can you tell me how the private healthcare system in America serves the poorer half of that population well?

As for science and technology? There is significant private investment, that is true, but this is all built on the back of the building blocks of research carried out by (largely) state funded universities.

Research for researches own sake is not in the interests of private companies. It is expensive and leads to dead ends, i.e. no return for shareholders. Private industry works when someone seizes on a scientific discovery as an opportunity to make money, but it won't generally have funded the initial research.

Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 15/11/2010 14:14
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

'The Victorians built quite a decent transport infrastructure and created Middlesbrough - all without any state spending.'

An elite with a very low paid worforce, do you see that as the way forward? Life expectation low, high infant mortality rates. Child labour exploitation?

There are countries using thse mathods today. Do you suggest we follow their models for economic success?

Unfortunately we had to rely on national and local government intervention to repair/knock down the slums and give people a higher standard of living. The industrialists then, as now, opposed it all the way.








Kirkylane Posted on 15/11/2010 16:52
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

Lefty: "As for the great Victorian Philanthropy, its largely a myth I'm afraid."

Philanthropy? That's yet another subject that nobody here has mentioned, but that you seem to think people are talking about. If you're hearing voices in your head, please see a Doctor.

You keep changing the subject. Show me where I'm wrong, and where the state is better at industrial policy than the private sector. I need numbers. Thank-yew…

Only_Me Posted on 15/11/2010 22:36
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

" Good grief. It is not a con, there is a general scientific concensus on this. They may disagree on the solutions and no-one is saying it is categorically down to mankind, due to the complexity of the global weather systems, but that mankind is making a difference is by far the best explanation.

As for them being 'found out', when did that happen? It must have passed me by. "



Ey up Rip Van Winkel, it's ok you can wake up now.

The general scientific consensus is now, that the world has actually been cooling down for more than a decade. Therefore, they could no longer use the term ' Global Warming ' hence the birth of ' Climate Change' [rle].
The hockey stick has also been disproved.

Still it's ok Rip, some of us are on the case and right up-to-date with all the available info, so you can go back to sleep now.
Night night, pleasant dreams... zzzzzzzzzzzzz



Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 15/11/2010 22:44
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

'The general scientific consensus is now, that the world has actually been cooling down for more than a decade.'

Is that true, or a little leap in the dark because a specfic group have tried to dismiss
the idea?

What's the reason for the receding glaciers of North America, if that's the case.

I'm not a scientist, nor have I read a great deal into it.


Only_Me Posted on 15/11/2010 22:59
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

" Is that true "

Indeed it is C.T.C. Of course the global warming zealots have been scrabbling around, trying to find an explanation for it that they could spin as being part of an overall warming trend but thankfully so far, they have drawn a blank.




I've linked to an item on the BBC news website for you ( there's loads of other sites that will tell you the same but I thought you might trust the BBC story more.)

As well as that, I have c&p'd part of the item for you - it will save you skimming the whole thing if you don't have time.



"
To confuse the issue even further, last month Mojib Latif, a member of the IPCC (Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change) says that we may indeed be in a period of cooling worldwide temperatures that could last another 10-20 years.
Iceberg melting (BBC)
The UK Met Office says that warming is set to resume

Professor Latif is based at the Leibniz Institute of Marine Sciences at Kiel University in Germany and is one of the world's top climate modellers.

But he makes it clear that he has not become a sceptic; he believes that this cooling will be temporary, before the overwhelming force of man-made global warming reasserts itself. "


Only_Me Posted on 15/11/2010 23:00
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

D'oh, I forgot the link, sorry!


Link: Here you go...

Pogatetz_Ate_My_Hamster_ Posted on 15/11/2010 23:06
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

Only_Me [^]

Global Warming is the biggest con going

HolgateCorner Posted on 15/11/2010 23:08
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

I have written and conclusive evidence that the earth is cooling quite dramatically - it's called The Gas Bill.

Only_Me Posted on 15/11/2010 23:26
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

" Only_Me [^]

Global Warming is the biggest con going "

Indeed it is but as I have already said, if you have little ones at school, beware the latest attemot to brainwash them with this One Planet rubbish.




" I have written and conclusive evidence that the earth is cooling quite dramatically - it's called The Gas Bill. "

Ain't that the truth H.C. [^][:D]
and what is more, it's looking like it's going to be another long and very cold winter. Having to use the central heating in November is not a good sign at all. [sad]

Kirkylane Posted on 15/11/2010 23:35
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

The Phil Jones interview by Roger Harrabin at the BBC where Jones admits the last 15 years haven't warmed faster than the 1930s or 1800s should do. I would post a link but I am on my Atari, it's hardwired to Fmttm and can't do colour.

"What's the reason for the receding glaciers of North America, if that's the case."

Glaciers tend to do that during interglacial periods. Shocking isn't it?

Only_Me Posted on 15/11/2010 23:38
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

"What's the reason for the receding glaciers of North America, if that's the case."

Glaciers tend to do that during interglacial periods. Shocking isn't it? "

They also investigated them in the summer and not the winter. [rle]

Lefty Posted on 19/11/2010 18:23
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story


I wish I hadn't gone back to look at this thread.

Kirkylane,

'Lefty: "As for the great Victorian Philanthropy, its largely a myth I'm afraid."

Philanthropy? That's yet another subject that nobody here has mentioned, but that you seem to think people are talking about. If you're hearing voices in your head, please see a Doctor.'

And you should see an eye specialist, considering it was only in the previous post to mine that Moggasdog wrote about benevolent industrialists in response, it seems fair to assume, to YOUR OWN mention of the Victorian founders of Middlesbrough.

So far on this thread you’ve made some wildly misleading claims about Danish Income Tax which when pointed out to you, rather than acknowledge this, you called me a clown for quoting Wickipedia.

Then when I pointed out that Wickipedia is as good as the Encyclopedia Britannica as a tool for research you laughed at that. When I then showed you the credible evidence that showed you were wrong on that too, you made no acknowledgement of that either, even though it is clear from other peoples links that the Wickipedia entry I posted was entirely reliable.

Now you’re telling me I’m imagining something that is in black and white in the post above mine. It’s not as if you had far to look and surely this was the most logical place to start. Bizarro.

‘ Show me where I'm wrong, and where the state is better at industrial policy than the private sector. I need numbers.’

*sighs*

I’ll refer you to my post of 11/11 at 23:14 ‘Some things work best in the private sector, some work best by the state’.

So you see I wasn’t arguing with you there, I was arguing with your rather simplistic point that ‘the state is a drain on the economy’ as you put it. I’m not going to repeat my points on that for you even though you seem unable to scroll back up and read earlier posts.

You seem like someone who has just read the one book and haven’t completely understood it. Either that or a typical first year economics student who thinks he now knows everything. It's the second most irritating thing about you.

oooooo Posted on 19/11/2010 18:36
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

The scientific community have a consensus that the earth has cooled over the last decade? You're just repeating a lie.


oooooo Posted on 19/11/2010 18:40
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

And here's my evidence:


Link: No-one can see a trend

Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 19/11/2010 18:59
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

'The Phil Jones interview by Roger Harrabin at the BBC where Jones admits the last 15 years haven't warmed faster than the 1930s or 1800s should do'

Oh really?

So you'll accept the failure of laissez-faire capitalism if I can find a quote or two?

Kirkylane Posted on 19/11/2010 19:26
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

When your argument depends on stereotypes, you need a better argument.

I can see I'm confusing you Corky. Find the slippers and have a nice lie down.

Corcaigh_the_Cat Posted on 19/11/2010 19:33
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

How sterotypical of you [^]

Kirkylane Posted on 19/11/2010 20:00
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

Lefty: You are aware that in independent academic studies Wickipedia has been found to be more accurate than Encyclopedia Brittanica, aren't you?"


The study wasn't an academic study (do you know what one is?), it was a news report hacked together by magazine journalists. Only they rigged it, it backfired, and were badly caught out cheating. Cheats like ... sending reviewers the kids version of Britannica who said it was too simple.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4840340.stm
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/03/23/britannica_wikipedia_nature_study/
http://corporate.britannica.com/britannica_nature_response.pdf

Admit it, you Googled and pasted the first thing you got back.

Lefty: "Kind of makes you the [:o)]"

If you say so.

Kirkylane Posted on 19/11/2010 20:09
Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story

Lefty: The state is a drain on the economy because it doesn't have any money. It actually has a little - interest on gold reserves, rents, etc. It also has assets and can sell some of these - but only once.

All the money the state has to play with must come from the economy: from income or transactions. It sucks out about half of the value of the economy and then starts splurging it. It is parasitic upon the real economy.

Now some of the things it splurges our money on we might agree are essential, defence or education perhaps and a welfare safety net, and some others are natural monopolies. Of all these things some may be best done by the state.

But you what you can't dispute is the opportunity cost to the economy. Most of us (even low paid employees) work until June before we keep a penny of our own money. This could be usefully kept in the economy and spent elsewhere. My point was simply that the state is rubbish at industrial investment. You have to be right every time that the state is better at investing here than the private sector, and it isn't, the return is between 30p and 70p in the pound.

As for Danish income tax, I haven't been "corrected". The top rate of state income tax is 15 per cent for megarollers. Most people pay 3.5 per cent. The rest is raised municipally, and people vote on it democratically. It can be zero per cent if they want, although the top rate is capped. Even Revolutionary Comrade Corcaigh clocked this one).

Why don't you look it up?
http://www.skm.dk/foreign/facts_and_figures/1602.html